Is watching everyone rush off to read Chris Dodd’s proposal, and rather than read it and judge it on the merits of the proposal, read it and compare it to the ridiculous opener from Paulson. Instead of reading the Dodd proposal and saying “this is a good idea” or “this sucks hard,” we will be treated to a few days of “well, it was better than what Paulson suggested.” Which, no doubt, will be true, because what Paulson asked for was completely ridiculous- “Give me a trillion dollars and then piss off.”
And then I will scream, because it is clear that this nation and our leadership have bargaining skills that are less sophisticated than your average seven year old:
Mom, can I have the soccer team over for a sleep-over on Friday?
No.
How about just Jimmy and Mike and Timmy and Scott?
I think that would be ok, but let me check with your father.
And while I would gladly have voted for Dodd in the primaries, is it wrong for me to mention that one of the real and fair knocks against Dodd is that he is wholly in bed with the banking and insurance industries? But somehow, because we are a nation of morons, we will judge giving 700 billion to someone with no strings unacceptable, but giving 700 billion to someone with a few caveats about CEO pay is somehow teh awesome. And who will be the white knight to bring us this reform? The guy in the Democratic party most in bed with the people who screwed up.
I will wait until I hear what Barney Frank has to say on the House side, thank you very much.
*** Update ***
I would bet any amount of money this is what happens if the Democrats pass the bailout.
NCProsecutor
Cmon, the plan is infinitely better, if only because of the equity components. I’m as pissed as anyone about this debacle, but the Dodd proposal is a good start. Mix with “liberal” amounts of Barney Frank-ness and we’ll have something worth talking about.
smiley
This ia all I’ve seen from Barney so far:
Stuck in the Fun House
Nope, as I said in an earlier, and might I say in a brilliant comment that was ravaged by the beast WordPress. I like Dodd. but he is compromised on this issue. I will wait till Feingold weighs in, or maybe Sanders(although being a socialist and all, who knows), before becoming completely and thoroughly ballistic.
NCProsecutor
In any event, they haven’t scheduled an immediate vote, so the initial shock and awe strategy has been successfully blunted. Whether or not something worthwhile emerges as a result of that remains to be seen.
But I like Dodd’s proposal as a start.
El Cid
Make no mistake: if the Democrats do this like this, it will lose them the election. Sorry. You can moan about how unfair it is that they sacrifice themselves to bail out Wall Street. But if they had a trillion dollars in taxpayer money to Wall Street with a few bullsh*t add-on’s, that’s it, sorry, it’s President McPalin time.
gbear
Well Krugman thinks it’s better, but he’s reading it while driving his car. Probably not the most thourough review. Hope he doesn’t kill somebody.
Walker
At least he is trying to lessen tax payer risk with contingency shares.
Unfortunately, the tax payers are in line AFTER the bond holders, should these banks go belly up.
Let me just remind everyone that the Option ARMs, the truly toxic of the toxic, have not reset yet. If you think the banks are hurting now, just wait. Whomever is elected president will be dealing with this issue their entire term.
And just wait until the UK melts down. You think we’ve got it bad?
Jake
Krugman seems to like it. That works for me.
demimondian
Meh. I haven’t *seen* the equity components yet, and I won’t have anything to say about this until I do.
If this is what it looks like, though, Dodd’s proposal is a Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceeding…without the proceedings, or the bankruptcy. If so, then my question is why we aren’t actually doing what one would normally do in a Ch 11, and having the creditors take over all the equity in the bailed out firm? Why aren’t we nationalizing the institutions which can no longer stand on their own? That’s what we do with banks, after all — why are investment firms in any way different?
J. Michael Neal
My take is here. In short, I think the Dodd bill is so much better than the Paulson bill that it’s no longer worth talking about the latter. If the Dodd bill is where we end, I’ll be reasonably satisfied. Not ecstatic, mind you, because there are other things I want in it, but I’ll take it it’s what’s available.
I’m also a lot less convinced that the Dems are going to cave on this than other people are. Unlike the Iraq war, this thing came out of the gate desperately unpopular, so the GOP isn’t going to have the same success mounting a phony outrage campaign. Also, keep in mind that this is a bailout for a Republican core constituency. As badly as we need it, they need it more. I’m convinced that they’ll cave, and sign what we give them.
Jake
What’s driving me nuts are the right-wing pundits now claiming that both McCain and Obama have botched this crisis.
McCain resembled a chicken with his head cut off last week. I think many folks on the right realize that, and simply want to tar Obama lest too many folks take notice.
Obama actually seemed like the guy we’d want behind the wheel. Any chance we can get W to quit early?
gbear
And I say: You can never use too many ‘u’s.
LiberalTarian
El Cid–I think that sucks. But, Democrats are always held to a higher standard. It does seem like everyone expects Republicans to do poorly, and when they do it’s okay, cuz everyone knows they can’t govern their way out of a wet paper bag. But, if the Democrats can’t do much, much, much a hundred gillion times better, well, they lose the election. Dumb. Too often true, but dumb.
pharniel
i’m thinking jail time for those deemed responsible, nullification of all existing executive contracts and re-negotiation on a more resonable scale, and more importantly rom Tanta at CR: mandatory credit counciling and hardship letters for each asset that needs bailing out or being sold off.
put ’em through the ringer and squeeze what we can.
Scott H
I watched Barney Frank on Bloomberg at 3 PM today.
Barney is clearly enjoying giving Paulson conniption duck fits over the CEO compensation curbs.
He also seems to have the view that if the taxpayer is buying this stuff then Congress can dictate terms, including rewriting mortgages for people facing foreclosure.
jake
Here’s a link directly to the draft.
I checked Sec. 8 – Limits on Review (pg 14) and … is he crazy? I don’t want to argue with these clowns about what constitutes an abuse of discretion. And they’ve proved that in their world “not in accordance with the law,” has as much meaning as “Chicken, trouser, millenium hand and shrimp.”
NonyNony
Exactly. My problem with Dodd’s proposal is that it reads as something eminently “reasonable”, which means that it’s first of all too close to the administration and Wall Street’s position to start as a good bargaining position (you need to give them something AS EXTREME as they handed you – we’ve seen how this administration works, make THEM move to the center). And second of all I’m worried that “reasonable” isn’t going to cut it – we probably need something that seems pretty damn unreasonable to the idiots on Wall Street who created this mess.
Also:
I shall add this to my file of “quotes that four years ago I would never think would appear on Balloon Juice except perhaps as sarcasm.” Somehow I suspect that file will be getting bigger over the next few weeks…
deepseas
This bailout is deep, thick and was carefully planned. Dodd and the rest of Congress are just going through the motions with Paulson, the SEC and Bush. Read this article while you can. It may not be online much longer.
http://www.thisisby.us/index.php/content/crash__the_kool_aid_state#top
Mino
I tried to leave a similar comment in an earlier thread but it got eated. Maybe Democratic leaders should make Republicans come to the plate by casting “present” votes until at least half of the Republicans vote “yes” and then changing their “present” votes to “yes” to see that it gets passed. This needs to be bi-partisan, I think. Don’t let the Republicans get away with being bratty children–make them be adults this time.
Incertus
Sanders has already weighed in on what he thinks the overall strategy should be. I like it, but I’m practically a socialist already, so that’s not a surprise. My favorite line in his reply is “If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist.” Yup.
tBone
He seems happy with it.
Dennis - SGMM
Congress has repeatedly abdicated its Constitutionally mandated power to declare war. Giving up the power of the purse and the responsibilities for oversight shouldn’t be too much of a reach.
The Moar You Know
Damn right, El Cid. We are being set up for the sucker punch of all time.
Stuck in the Fun House
Malkin say’s “Kill the Bailout” and I agree with her. And now it’ s time for my Cyanide Toddy.
Tsulagi
Dodd is just putting lipstick on a pig. Prettying up the pig before buying it in the hope that those watching won’t think you’re dumb for buying a $700B pig in the first place.
Yeah, I could see McMaverick doing his mavericky dance. Voting no on the bailout saying he would be much tougher in the strings attached as he’s fiscally responsible. Then if Obama votes for it, McCain brings out more of the tax and spend liberal attack ads. Plus claiming Obama is more like Bush than he is. You’d hear McCain beating his reformer theme.
Jay in Oregon
Don’t let the Republicans get away with being bratty children—make them be adults this time.
The only way to do that is to put the Republicans on the hook — make them come up with the plan for bailing out these assholes.
But there are too many Democrats with corporatist backings, not to mention the “Blue Dogs” and DINOs like Lieberman, for that to work.
Fwiffo
Admiral Ackbar is screaming.
Jake
On Cole’s update, I think the problem for McCain here is that he’s publicly stated that he supports Paulson’s plan. Pretty much everyone agrees that Paulson’s plan is the worst one out there.
He can vote against the bailout on the basis of Democratic ad-ons, but he’s still going to be stuck explaining why he supported a $700B giveaway in the first place.
Martin
Democrats really need to pass a bill that Bush will want to veto. It’s not that hard, actually, to tie $700B in receipts to the bill so it’s revenue neutral to the taxpayers by raising corporate taxes, closing loopholes, increasing cap gains to match income, etc. Bush may sign it, because he has to, but it gives Dems the high ground by passing a revenue neutral bailout. I don’t think voters would have a problem with that at all.
chopper
thing is, mccain is behind the bailout. not a blank check, but he’s behind it in general. so he can’t just up and say he’s against the bailout on principle. he’d have to point to one specific bit and say that’s why he’s against the whole thing. and while some people might eat that shit up, mccain is not that good at political nuance. and his base would mostly shrug their shoulders because he’d be behind a bailout, just not that one.
if the dems get this bailout changed from the paulson version to the dodd version mccain has to agree to it, which makes the dems and obama look like the leaders on the issue. otherwise he might end up looking like a petty politician having a tantrum, if obama can paint it right.
or a huge ass blatant flip-flopper on the single biggest financial issue of the last 60 years.
‘i think a bailout is necessary but should include provisions’
sir, the dems got the WH to agree to a bailout with provisions.
‘they did? well, now a bailout violates my conservative principles!’
NonyNony
Welp, I must have moved another notch to the Left because I was just saying that to my Lovely Wife the other week. Too big to fail? Then it needs to be broken up into smaller companies that AREN’T too big to fail. If you can’t fail it isn’t capitalism – it’s some kind of bizarro-universe capitalism where winners always win.
I’ve been moving slowly to the Left for years. This whole mess in the last few months has seemed to accelerate it. I joke that at the rate I’m going, I’ll be calling for a Worker’s Revolution by the time I’m 60. The Bush Administration may have moved that date up by 20 years…
Martin
Actually, that’s not a position of the left. It’s a conservative principle that industry should not be able to overshadow government, but then the GOP is a long road from conservative these days.
tBone
I agree, but that would require spinal infusions on a massive scale, and we just don’t have that kind of time before THE WORLD COMES TO AN END!
I’d love to see a bill that would make those greedy shitheads squeal like the fat fucking pigs they are, but we all know that ain’t gonna happen. Frankly, I’m amazed the Democrats didn’t bend over en masse for Paulson’s original proposal.
The Moar You Know
Dodd has not taken it nearly far enough. If these assholes want my money they should have to crawl for it, and be grateful we aren’t tossing them into prison in the process.
If we’re not willing to make this at least a reasonable deal for the US taxpayer, then no deal. It’s that easy. Let them go bankrupt.
Mino
This attempt to prop up house prices is pretty much doomed to failure anyway. Just look at what has happened to oil and the dollar on just the rumor of this action.
Roubini’s latest at RGE Monitor won’t give you much encouragement that this mess is in anyway fixable.
ThymeZone
The thing that is pissing me off, or at least irritating me, is that this crisis is being used as an opportunity for every dickhead on the planet, including some commenters here, to start marching around and puffing up their chests and making strong assertions about things they know absolutely nothing about. STFU, that’s my advice.
Second, this situation appears to me to be a Deck of the Titanic deal. As we clamber onto the deck of the Titanic, and the vessel is pitching down in the bow more steeply with each passing minute, we have these people who are now suddenly endowed with the ability to read and understand the entire empire of finance, credit and banking, and announce What the Great Problem Is.
This would be like running around the deck of the Titanic yelling about the shortcomings of modern maritime management and navigation, rather than focussing on the LIFEBOATS AND THE LIFE JACKETS AND THE OARS AND GETTING THE PASSENGERS TO SAFETY.
Once that has been done and the lives are saved, we have time to sit back and light up our pipes and tut tut over the state of financial market governance and theory.
Get the people, and that includes me, into the lifeboats and away from the sinking wreck that would suck us all down into oblivion, and then teach me how you think you know about the global economy and finance and credit and the price of soybeans. Until then shut the fuck up and get away from me.
The Grand Panjandrum
So we should heed Bobbly Knights advice and lay back and enjoy since we can’t do much about it? Not a fucking chance.
Dodd left out the part where we hang a few of these rat fuckers just to scare the shit out them and let them know we aren’t playing games. Then get serious and strip each and every one of these fools of private jet, houses, private schools and bank accounts. Put them on the fucking street with a few blankets. (I have no sympathy for spouses or children either. Let them all eat span and velfuckingveeta. They’ve put a lot of families on the streets they may as well get the full ride for effect.)
Dodd’s plan sucks. It isn’t even a reasonable first shot. Jesus! This really is a goddamn shame.
BTW did everyone remember to call Congress. It isn’t too late to continue the pressure.
J. Maynard Gelinas
No. It’s more like:
[Sixteen year old girl asks dad]: Dad, can I have the football team over for a sleep-over?
And dad replied:
Why sure, honey! And I’ll even buy the beer! But no condoms, you could die from those.
I guess poppy-Bush (Prescott) finally won his coup de tat against the US government through his children and grandchildren:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
I’ve lost all confidence in both political parties and the electoral system. There is no out. Both parties have a lock on political power and neither party is responsible in wielding it. We’re in for a rough ride. I just hope these crazies in control of the government don’t decide to turn against US citizens like Chile, El Salvador, and Guatemala.
The nuts in charge strike me as crazy enough to start a ‘political cleansing campaign’ to check the very strong public opposition that must come about once everyone realizes they’ve been fucked up the ass by their own leaders.
It’s class war and they won everything there is to loot. Now they must keep it. I fully expect we’ll be calling poor people looking for bread in a line “terrorists” before too long. I mean, what are those detainment camps KBR has been building throughout the midwest for, but to quell dissent among a very pissed off citizenry?
The Moar You Know
Way to buy into the panic, TZ. Figure it out – you are getting played, my friend.
J. Maynard Gelinas
No. It’s more like:
[Sixteen year old girl asks dad]: Dad, can I have the football team over for a sleep-over Friday night?
And dad replied: “Why sure, honey! And I’ll even buy the beer! But no condoms, you could die from those.”
I guess poppy-Bush (Prescott) finally won his coup de tat against the US government through his children and grandchildren:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
I’ve lost all confidence in both political parties and the electoral system. There is no out. Both parties have a lock on political power and neither party is responsible in wielding it. We’re in for a rough ride. I just hope these crazies in control of the government don’t decide to turn against US citizens like Chile, El Salvador, and Guatemala.
The nuts in charge strike me as crazy enough to start a ‘political cleansing campaign’ to check the very strong public opposition that must come about once everyone realizes they’ve been fucked up the ass by their own leaders.
It’s class war and they won everything there is to loot. Now they must keep it. I fully expect we’ll be calling poor people looking for bread in a line “terrorists” before too long. I mean, what are those detainment camps KBR has been building throughout the midwest for, but to quell dissent among a very pissed off citizenry?
Stuck in the Fun House
Well, TZ, we were just waiting for you to come by and enlighten us with your brilliance. Please forgive, we are but peons in your presence.
>snark
TenguPhule
TZ, I like you and you usually make sense.
But this is one of those rare occasions where you are wrong.
The lifeboats being set up are not for me or thee.
And if we let the bastards sail away, they will ‘tut tut’ and do the same shit all over again.
This genie either gets shoved back in the bottle or we might as well accept that it’s got to be revolution, because just giving $700 billion to Bush lackies essentially makes them the new Kings of America.
J. Maynard Gelinas
Apologies for the multiple redundant posts. WordPress on this site often hangs until the browser reports a socket disconnect. That happened to me several times while trying to post that comment. So I tried to post it again. And again. With the results seen above. Hope I don’t do the same with this apology.
Stuck in the Fun House
The sounds of drowning stocks is an ugly sound, but the sounds of a drowning free market republic is much, much worse.
Funhouse musing #?
chopper
well, the people who are closer to retirement are definitely going to be the ones who are really shit scared here. that’s the thing that worries the shit out of me when it comes to a full-bore meltdown – the baby boomers are starting to retire. bad time to see everyone’s 401(k) and IRAs drop 50%, eh? especially when the government has been borrowing from the social security trust fund.
Just Some Fuckhead
And may I just say Teez, yer bass line on Nearer My God To Thee is simply moving.
Mino
Just for laughs: A poster at GOS said “I heard one serious discussion that the only safe investments at this moment are gold, energy (duh), oil in particular (double duh) and get this: alcohol and cigarettes.” Heh.
Martin
Nobody ever went broke betting on vice. Investing in hookers and blow would make you rich.
ThymeZone
So you claim. But you’d have to know my financial profile, the size and shape of my portfolio, and the value of my assets to really know that. And that’s one of several hundred million examples of why you have no idea what the FUCK you are talking about.
What you are claiming is essentially this: We should stand by and let these liquidity ischemias take down the markets, credit institutions and banks and do so because fat cats might benefit more than you do.
Sorry, that’s a risk I am not interested in taking. At this juncture, I have no reason on earth to trust your judgment any more than I trust the judgment of the crew of the ship — while we are on the deck of the sinking ship.
Later, when we are back on shore and sipping our tum toddies, we can bloviate about the future. My interest right now is in having a future, and there is NO FUCKING WAY ON GOD’S EARTH that I am trusting the existence of my future to your fucking judgment. I’ve watched you for years, and uh …. thanks a lot for the advice. Now go away, please, as far as possible. I can take care of myself just fine.
Get it?
qwerty42
In the House, Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA), a member of the House Financial Services Committee has made an alternative proposal.
ThymeZone
Free carwash coupon to the first person to find the difference between my two preceeding posts.
Just Some Fuckhead
So you won’t be needin’ the bailout then, Mr. Zone?
ThymeZone
At least I can play. You’re just a smartass music critic.
The Moar You Know
This is why I wasn’t nearly as rough on him as I might be otherwise. There are a lot of people staring ruin in the face.
It’s a hard thing to accept that no matter what they do, they’re going to get ruined regardless. The system has been set up to do that.
“Worked hard all your life? Tough shit, I need a gold-plated shark tank for my rec room.”
The elites robbing us had best be careful. If you take away everything from a person, they can get very unpredictable.
TenguPhule
And yet you’ll believe Paulson and Bush will save you if we just give them the money.
You may want to get second opinion.
At least my way, if we go down in flames, we at least get to watch the bastards who got us all into this mess die first.
ThymeZone
What I won’t be needin’ is any advice from you, Mister Fuckhead. I realize that the thought of this is more than you can bear. But scrunch up your little Fuckhead brow, and try as hard as you can. You can get through this.
Rick Taylor
I don’t know if the villagers know it yet, but Republicans have killed off a lot of “reasonable” Democrats like myself, by making chumps of us. I used to be respectful of the need to be fiscally responsible and keep deficits low. I nodded approvingly when Greenspan rose taxes on the working class to secure social security. Then, after eight years of economically responsible leadership, I watched as Greenspan gave the green light to use the tidings of that responsibility to fund tax cuts for the extremely wealthy, and then I watched them opine how social security was in crises and need to be cut back or privatized, and boy did I feel like a chump. I watched as the results of fiscal responsibility responsiblity were used to fund an insane war, and now I’m watching as the money is going in a naked bail out of wealthy companies that played the market and lost. And all I can see is after being shat and pissed on for nearly eight years, I’m not willing to get up and say, please sir can I have some more. If Democrats come into power, you want to appeal to the fiscally reasonable among us? Forget it.
I’m not the only one that feels that way. Paul Krugman has been saying for some time if Democrats get into power we can’t make balanced budgets a holy grail. Matt Yglesias recently wrote:
So when the villagers start having vapors about how much partisanship there is, how few serious people willing to compromise there are on the Democratic side, well there’s a reason for that.
Martin
Well, the missing piece in all of this is ‘How are we going to pay for it?’ If the Dems can squeeze $700B in taxes out of the corporations being bailed out, then I’m fine handing them the blank check. If they’re willing to pay for it, then who am I to complain.
But that’s the problem – we don’t know who will pay for it. Right now it feels like we’re all in for $2500. That’s $10K for my family, and I’m sorry, but even though I have a shitload of money in the market, these guys can get fucked and die if the $10K is coming from me – even though I stand to lose at least $10K if they go under. Hell, I’m down $13K in one stock alone, just today.
Now, that might make bad sense for me, but it makes damn good sense for the vast majority of households that won’t lose $10K in investments and don’t want to pony up to salvage them.
Yeah, the plan only needs to service you. We get it.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m here for ya when you come out of yer shame spiral, buddy.
Brachiator
The proposal still kind of sucks because it accepts the conventional wisdom that it is necessary for the government to come running with cash to stabilize financial markets, when it does nothing to address a number of central problems:
First, the many of the underlying mortgages are inherently defective since the mortgage holders would not qualify for them under any reasonable credit check formula.
The underlying assets, the homes of the mortgage holders, are in many cases, severely overvalued, making it unlikely that the government could ever recoup the money thrown down the rathole in a rescue attempt.
Many of the underlying assets have been repackaged and resold so many times that it is impossible to identify those liable and those who actually hold the underlying equities.
I read a lot about oversight, but see nothing which requires that lenders revise lending practices or that bond agencies like Moody’s are held responsible for mythological rating schemes.
Lastly, I do not see any empirical validation of the theory that new money will not come in to re-establish credit markets without extreme government intervention. Why is it that foreign governments such as that of the UK or Germany are not rushing to throw equivalent amounts of money at their failed banks affected by the sub prime mess?
Anybody ask Ron Paul about this? Or even Ross Perot? Or the economists who correctly predict that this house of cards would collapse?
By the way, a piece in BBC News shows how we were slowly nudged towards financial disaster (Bye bye bulge-bracket):
In short, the actions by the Bush Administration put a larger pool of savings at risk. And bankers smart enough to see another opportunity to milk the suckers, are jumping at the new bait.
I wonder whether their stake will make Mitsubishi eligible for a little buyout money?
TenguPhule
Why do the same people fall for this again and again?
This is not liquidty that’s the problem. It is *CONFIDENCE* and simple *FRAUD*. There is a lot of worthless shit on the books, more money will not help because these ‘assets’ are worth NOTHING. Nobody wants to lend because this game of musical chairs has come to an end and nobody knows who’s really on the seat.
The Moar You Know
Explain how I benefit. At all. So far I’m looking at a $31,000 bill for this bailout. If the market blows up I lose the $20k in my 401k. I’d rather lose 20k than 31k. So tell me why I should fork over 31k so that some fat fucking executive, who would gladly use my blood to lubricate the underside of his Benz, can take home a bonus that amounts to more than my lifetime earnings.
I am ALL fucking ears.
ThymeZone
Nope. What I believe is what I believe, which you find out only by asking me, not by telling me. That’s number one.
Number two, I take care of my own financial interests. Always have.
About a month ago I made changes in my investment portfolio that, to put it delicately, made last week completely irrelevant to me. I’m fine, and I will be fine no matter what happens next. I know how to take care of myself, but I won’t extrapolate that confidence into declarations about how the world’s financial and credit markets should be managed, like most of the loudmouths around here will.
My advice to you is to take care of your own affairs and leave mine to me. That’s what I’m going to do.
Meanwhile, STFU and get away from me.
chopper
soak the rich, motherfuckers. soak the fuckers hard.
Kathy Hussein in MA
Would it be too paranoid to think that this is the October Surprise?
Kevin
How about you go fuck off yourself? Your endless ego-stroking is pretty fucking obnoxious.
Stuck in the Fun House
Maybe we should ask ourselves, Are They REally? All we have now are the assurances of the Bush Pathological liars and the incompetent mouse Bernanke. There is a serious problem, but serious enough to chuck our entire system of government and economics, on their say so, like as of last Friday. ARe we to believe this great nations world class economic system will just die overnight if we don’t give proven lying assholes the keys to the national bank and pat on the ass to spend it wisely.. I’m just not willing to swallow that right now, even though TZ is right about not knowing what is true and not, including him. I’m for saving the hardearned dollars of average AMericans, up to a point. Where that point is, can be discussed in the context of what ever treatment for the disease doesn’t also kill the patient. (Our fucking country)
The Moar You Know
Nope. Remember, there are a bunch of folks who don’t pay taxes, and are not “all in”. Ratchet that number down to the guys who are paying taxes and all of the sudden you’re looking at about 30 large, not $2500.
ThymeZone
First, I am not explaining anything to you. There are plenty of people here who will tell you everything they think you need to know. They’ve been doing it for days. Why are you barking at me? It’s them you should be corresponding with.
Second, if somebody presented me with a bill for $31k, I could write them a check. I wouldn’t enjoy it, but I could do it, and move on. I’d just need a few days to move some money around. I don’t need any advice from you in the process.
w vincentz
Seems I’ve heard the words “act quickly” before.
Like prior to the invasion of Iraq, to the UN for their blessing, authorizing the “surge” (that succeeded due to ethnic cleansing), Patriot Act, Fisa,…hmmm, “ACT QUICKLY”.
Nope. Not this time Bozos.
We’ve heard “act quickly” before. Too many times.
We,as in “the people”, the Americans that you, the government derives your “just poweres” from, need to have a look at all of the particulars of the REACTIVE legislation you propose. We need to discuss this matter at our kitchen tables, in our barber shops, and with our neighbors.
We will make up our minds in due time.
Then, WE will vote on the NATIONAL REFERENDUM you place in the voting booths in all of the fifty states wherein we live.
You, and Paulson, and Barnenke, and Goldman Sachs, and Morgan Stanley, and the rest of the whole fuckin’ world can wait until Novemer 4, 2008 for us to make up our minds.
We’ve already seen what happens when we “act quickly”.
ThymeZone
So, let me see if I have this right. I declare that I dont need any advice from the suddenly-all-knowing crowd of barstool financial advisors around here, and your response is that I should go fuck myself.
My my. You certainly learn a lot about people if you hang around here for a while.
Fuck you, asshole, fuck you in every way with a sharp stick up your ass. Who the fuck are you to talk to me that way?
John Cole
The problem with any bailout for me is, fundamentally, will it do anything. Right now, I am reading a lot of stuff out there that says all this will do is preserve liquidity in the short term and put off the inevitable. It looks like this is just slowing down the unwinding of the crap, not stopping it. As such, this 700 billion might be just throwing good money after bad. Well, considering we need to raise our debt limit and just print the 700 billion, bad money after bad.
If the crash is inevitable, what is the point of the bailout?
ronathan richardson
The way we benefit from this is that if no one in the country can get a fucking loan for anything, no one can buy a house and no one can start a business. Without these douchebags at Wall street, entrepreneurship dies. So something had to be done. Should be the bill be more punitive than the compromise appears to be? Yes. But we need to do this to have an economy. And fuck, these loan assets are valued as if they were at a 90% default rate, when they’re really only at 5-10% rate–we could rake it in.
Incertus
Nobody’s forcing you to stay here, dude. Go off in your own little corner and jerk off if you want to.
ThymeZone
How many post have I made here in the last week, you pompous motherfucker?
Count them up. The take your rude comments to me and shove them all the way up your ass until your hand comes out your mouth.
ThymeZone
Uh no, I pay the same price to be here that you do. Don’t tell me where to go or what to do. Who the fuck are you?
What’s your beef? That I don’t buy the conventional line of “Let me tell those congressmen how to handle this big crisis” bullshit that everyone else is into around here?
Is that idea more than you can stand? Do you think it licenses you to talk to me like that?
TenguPhule
Please stop, TZ. You’re only making yourself look worse and worse with each new post.
Take a few deep breaths and calm down.
TenguPhule
To get Bush out of the country before the lynch mobs come.
chopper
heh. well, i for one am also pissed off too. shit, come january i’m gonna have a daughter to care for. as happy as i am at the idea of an obama presidency, the idea of trying to raise a kid during a depression scares the bejeezus out of me.
i guess i’m doing better than most. i have a government job which helps.
ThymeZone
Great. The BJ commentariat basically has nothing to say but “Off With Their Heads!”
John, you should hire these people. They are better than Dickens.
I just saved them all from having to make that all up.
Stuck in the Fun House
Maybe all those so-called built in fail safes to prevent economic collapse like 1929, have run their course and what we are seeing is the equivalent of stifled forest fires finally going up in superhot flames that creates the need a whole new economic ecosystem. Can’t help it, I’m a Biologist
ThymeZone
Fuck you, man. What is the matter with you? What argument do you think you are having, and who do you think you are having it with?
“Look better” to whom? Are you here to meet new friends, or sell Avon products?
What exactly do you think is my misdemeanor? Suggesting that all the commenters here didn’t suddenly become financial experts last week?
Wow, that’s pretty awful. Why don’t you ask John to ban me, clearly I am more than you can stand? Seriously? Go ahead. Go for it.
tavella
Tranches, baby, tranches. You are still thinking of what we are going to be buying as actual assets, which we can liquidate and obtain some portion of money back from. What we are buying are securities that say we are third in line for any money back from those assets, and the first two people in line must be fully recompensed before we get anything at all. And guess what? Because the value was so inflated, we get zero.
We are buying the shit in the shit sandwich, and only the shit. There ain’t going to be any scraping the shit off and at least having a piece of bread; other people are keeping the bread.
Brachiator
Economist Christopher Thornburg used be interviewed along with a number of more optimistic economists (house prices will rise forever) by the LA Times. The other economists are interviewed far less often. Here is Thornburg just on the prospects of the Southern California housing market:
Now, imagine this on a national scale.
chopper
it was a joke, dumbass.
demimondian
Minimizing the overshoot.
A fast crash causes investors to panic and overreact, which will cause more harm than a slower, more modulated implosion. Mind you, each of them will be a catastrophe, but there will be less incidental damage if we drag the disaster out.
And besides, the Democrats will be in the White House at that point, and there’s always the hope that we can blame them.
Incertus
I’m not the one screeching at everyone else to go away and leave me along–that’s your line right now. I don’t give two shits if you disagree. I’m just suggesting that maybe, just maybe it’s a little stupid to go onto someone else’s site and then say “Meanwhile, STFU and get away from me.” If you don’t want to be around us, don’t come here.
As for my license to talk to you that way, as long as Cole doesn’t ban us, I’ll talk to you however the fuck I want to, and I’ll expect that you’ll do the same to me.
TenguPhule
TZ, please go back and show me where I have ever been outright rude or disrespectful to you or gone after you personally.
I’m not calling for a ban and please stop overreacting. I am pointing out that you are wrong. You disagree with me, fine.
But you are better then GoatIQ. I know that. You should too.
Martin
Oh, I realize that completely, but until someone actually comes out and tells me how it’ll be paid for, I’m going to assume as much of a fair share as I can imagine. Hell, for all I know they’ll toss a VAT out there and then I really will be in for $10K. But it’s easy for everyone to assume that someone else will pay for most of it, and in that case, everyone gets to duck out and just accept what’s easy. That’s bullshit. I vote based not on what benefits me solely but what I think benefits society, because ultimately what becomes of my neighbor affects me.
ThymeZone
Then why are you writing this crap to me?
As will I to you, and if you don’t like it, you can go fuck yourself very much. Now get the fuck away from me.
Um, I’ve been reading you for a long time, chopper. You really need to label your jokes. If you get my drift.
w vincentz
@JC,
Good point re “good money after bad”. In my humble opinion, the “bail out” will not prevent the inevitable.
Shadow banking through derivatives is about $516 Trillion. US GDP is $15 trillion. Do the math.
Look at the USSR after they bankrupted themselves in their Afghanistan war (1989). Their tax base had diminished and confidence in their government fell. They therefore inflated their economy by devaluing their currency. The consequences caused the demise of the USSR. The people suffered for many years.
Thsi lesson of history is right there for us to see.
Just Some Fuckhead
lolz.
Don’t listen to him, chopper. He’s just afraid since he went through the first depression.
Martin
That’s pretty much it. Like I said in one of the other threads, my city here in O.C. had median home prices at 9x the median household income. The only way the top half of the housing market was being bought by the top half of the income earners is if people were showing up with huge down payments (which some were) or if they were getting really sketchy loans (which some were as well).
But I agree with Demi, the only point of this is to minimize the overshoot. Without the regulation and oversight, we just wind up back where we started but with a bit less anxiety. The market cannot self-police, because the people paying attention to the problems leave the market rather than fix the problems and leave it to the folks not paying attention to get whalloped. You can’t mandate that hundreds of millions of investors, many though mutual funds and other vehicles all pay due diligence to what each company is doing, especially when the company is doing it’s best to hide it from investors.
Incertus
No. I’m not going anywhere, and that’s my whole point. If you don’t like what we’re talking about here, no one is forcing you to stay. If this were your site, I’d have left when you said to get the fuck away from you–but we’re not on your site, and until I’m told by the owner to vacate, I’ll stay and join in the conversation, no matter how much my opinions piss you off.
ThymeZone
So, your refutation amounts to, “You’re old!”
You have really outdone yourself this time, Fuckhead. Really. Your best material ever. More, more.
Actually, for the record, I was born during the Truman adiminstration. Harry, not Capote.
So, while your line may qualify for the funniest line of the week down at the sewage treatment plant where you work, it is actually way off base.
ThymeZone
Whatever. Now get the fuck away from me.
Just Some Fuckhead
Thanks Teez, but I’m not actually doing refutations – just smacking you around for giggles.
ThymeZone
Heh. If you think you are smacking me around, all I can say is, you are aptly named.
I’ll do the smacking in this relationship. Your role is to beg for mercy.
flavortext
Just called my Congresscritter (Lois Capps) and gave her hell. I suggest everyone do the same.
chopper
oh, boo fucking hoo.
oh no, TZ is acting all pissy. oh wow, this is so new and exciting.
gopher2b
Funny real life metaphor for what’s going on right now:
I looked at a house today that is listed for $775k. The realtor told me that the owner had listed it for $1.25 million but its about to be forclosed on so they are listing it for $775k. He looks me in the eye and says “so you’re talking about a house that is worth 1.25M in a down market so when the market turns around, it will be worth $1.7M”
I repeat, it’s listed for $775k. No offers. Everyone is delusional about how this problem gets fixed. No one has any idea what anything is worth and they just “know” the problem will sort itself out once the market turns around. The government is about to overpay a shit load for crap debt and is telling us we’ll make money when it turns around. Fuck them.
ThymeZone
I really miss these good old fashioned flame wars.
This crybaby liberal shit that has become standard here lately is really getting on my nerves.
Since everybody fancies himself in the advice giving business, here’s mine:
There is one vitally important thing to do in the next 40 days or so. That’s to elect a Dem president and as many Dem members of congress as possible. Nothing else really matters.
Take your eyes off that goal at your own peril.
Or, in your case Fuckhead, your eye.
w vincentz
OK TZ and Incert,
I’ll ref for ya so ya don’t hijack this discussion on the bailout.
Find a way to exchange your emails or maybe do an IM chat.
Everyone seems a bit on edge lately.
You both have brought lots of good stuff to balloonie juice in the past.
I like you both. Find a way to work this out, ok?
ThymeZone
I give you rock solid advice, and this is the thanks I get?
No good deed goes unpunished around here.
chopper
that’s awesome. i love the ever-optimistic realtor.
marge: this house is on fire!
lionel hutz: motivated seller.
ThymeZone
Not me. Doin’ fine.
You guys sound about as coherent as a John McPalin Campaign Strategy Meeting, after the diet soda runs out.
chopper
are you asking me to get off your lawn?
Brachiator
There are already mechanisms in place to prevent panic from totally engulfing the market, such as automatic halting of stock exchange trades when the market drops a certain percentage.
The conventional wisdom that that all these funny mortgages were not a problem has now been replaced by the conventional wisdom that a panic is imminent unless the government’s multi-billion dollar bailout is approved.
Meanwhile, mortgage banker Lou Barnes, who has been pretty good at outlining the unfolding of the financial mess, has been suggesting in his blog that the government has been working on this rescue plan for months, despite Bush’s standard “Congress must act quickly and pass my plan” playacting (Now this crisis is officially public property):
Barnes also has his list of good guys and economic charlatans:
ThymeZone
I put in desert landscaping. And yes, get off it.
ThymeZone
You’re a glutton for punishment, w.
HyperIon
i think TZ is doing a John McCain imitation…the “get off my lawn” shtick. other than that, he does seem more irascible than usual.
but, but….what ARE the lifeboats? is giving Paulson $700B with no strings attached (AND permission to come back for more) a lifeboat? it seems more like: get in this boat and pray it isn’t full of holes. pray. and i don’t TZ as the praying type. so i am puzzled.
happily when Bear Stearns went south, i had a heart-to-heart with my investment adviser (that would be me). and i moved out of equities because i confessed (to myself) that i believed that the market must go down given the bad stuff i was reading about AIG, CDS, etc. thank you, John Cole, for adding Calculated Risk to the blog roll.
so it’s the hyperinflation threat that scares the shit out of me.
HyperIon
i see that someone else has the same impression as i have. ;=)
w vincentz
LOL! TZ.
Rick Taylor
I enjoy bemoaning the ineffectiveness of our Democratic leadership as much as anyone, but I think you’re a little hard on them here. One of the perks of winning the Presidency and choosing a cabinet is you generally get to set the terms of the debate in a crises like this. I think the Democrats are doing pretty well, given that reality; it’s not an easy position to negotiate from. And uh, *ahem*, since you did to a tiny degree put them in this position by supporting electing the current administration, you might be a little easier on them now.
I’ll also add that as much as I might be inclined to argue the administration is attempting to scare people into action with apocalyptic rhetoric (as they did before invading Iraq), the fact that Paul Krugman takes this seriously makes me think it’s not entirely manufactured.
Martin
Yeah, the CNBC guys were blathering about how the market drops weren’t so bad, but this isn’t exactly a broad market problem. It’s mainly a financial market problem. The automatic halting doesn’t work when only the investment banks fall 50% on the day. Nobody would really care except that when certain companies get massacred like that, they get bailed out. So now everybody cares, but they’re still allowed to crash and burn.
IMO, if the Fed is considering bailing a company out, they need controls on that stock immediately before investors get a whiff and tank it. The owners of a company shouldn’t get a preferential outlet over taxpayers.
tBone
You guys keep arguing with TZ – it’ll keep him distracted while I sneak into his back yard and dig up his Mason jars.
nicethugbert
I’ve had more time to read the Dodd proposal — and it is a big improvement over the Paulson plan. The key feature, I believe, is the equity participation: if Treasury buys assets, it gets warrants that can be converted into equity if the price of the purchased assets falls. This both guarantees against a pure bailout of the financial firms, and opens the door to a real infusion of capital, if that becomes necessary — and I think it will.
……..
Casual Observer
Dodd’s plan is much better.
It still won’t work, imo, but it won’t work a bit better than Paulson’s won’t work.
And, after all, isn’t that the most important thing? That the Democratic plan is slightly better around the edges, but still throws an impossible and unsustainable amount of good public money after bad private money? So that the culprits can get by, even if the banking system doesn’t get fixed?
Mino
The banks have taken a look at Paulson’s proposal and are thinking there may be a diabolical angle to it all.
[url=http://wallstreetexaminer.com/blogs/winter/?p=1918]Here[/url]
chopper
i can’t understand you. put your false teeth back in.
Mino
The banks have taken a look at Paulson’s proposal and are thinking there may be a diabolical angle to it all. Check out winter’s blog at wallstreetexaminer.com
Tried to imbed, but didn’t work. Sorry no link.
Rome Again
Mino, try instead of [ and ], got it?
Rome Again
TZ is definitely not the praying type, and I am puzzled as well. I had a talk with him about this, but I’m still not any clearer on what he’s thinking right now than I was before we started. We both see the Paulson thing as not solving any problem. That’s about as much as I understand right now. He seemed more interested in his asian salad than explaining what he’s thinking.
I can assure you there are no mason jars and if there were and anyone here were to get them, it would be me (I’m not expecting any).
Rome Again
Whoops, I tried but my tag symbols disappeared…
Try the upper case symbols on the comma and period keys, between M and ? – that should help you locate them.
jcricket
Man, you stop commenting for 6 months or so, come back, and TZ’s still the center of attention. Good times. Good times.
Just Some Fuckhead
We called ’em “episodes” when my granddad got like that.
Rome Again
Well, he’s not old enough to be my grandfather.
jcricket
When I think of TZ, I picture Stallone in the last Rocky/Rambo movies.
CharlesF
Go away, don’t talk to me, it’s that time of the month, so piss off and take your pissy advice with you. But before you go, let me tell you about my money and how safe it is. What, you are still here?! Piss off. Wait, don’t go, let me insult you some more.
Nice routine, though limited in possibilities for further development into something actually entertaining.
nicethugbert
What pisses me off is that The Chimp hands this asshat parchment to The Dems with fail written all over it and The Dems take the damn bait and cuddle it.
The second this thing hit the media, they did not refer to it by it’s proper title but by it’s brand, namely, Bailout. So we have Bush Bailout Democrats … as the frame. When we should have Bush Asshat GOP Crooks … as the frame. So the GOP has dumped the hot potato on The Dems and run against themselves. It’s like The Chimp has become the GOPs suicide bomber.
What The Dems should have done is just thrown the Bailout in file 13 and set it on fire then send Glass-Steagal to The Chimp. Chimp says Bailout. Dems say Accountability. GOP says … well it doesn’t matter what they say then, they’re lost. It’s liable to be more ammunition to be used against them. Now they have a sanctimonious umbrella to hide under.
But, nooooooooooo, I have to do all the thinking around here and I’m the last to know anything!
Brachiator
You’re right about the point that automatic trading halts are meant to protect the broad stock market. But my point was that I don’t understand why a huge financial bailout is being offered as the only solution to the problem.
Attempting to stabilize the financial markets by bailing out the existing group of bankers and investment houses is much like saying that you are going to stabilize a crooked card game with the same card sharps at the stable.
This still begs the question of whether a bailout is going to accomplish anything. But it is interesting that the outline proposal says little more than that Paulson would be allowed to exercise his discretion in doing the bailout, nothing about practices and procedures.
Kevin
Yes, that’s pretty much it. You have given absolutely no evidence that you know any more than the other people posting here. You jump into the middle of a thread, tell everyone that they’re stupid, refuse to demonstrate how they’re stupid, tell people to shut the fuck up, and you’re surprised when you get hostile treatment?
You’re getting the response you deserve, you twit.
Kevin
Every single thing you post on this site is a variation of “I’m smart, you’re not, fuck you.”
You reap what you sow with the rude comments.
Beej
TZ, you are absolutely right. I don’t understand even a few of the permutations of finance and economics that are in play here. But I do recognize a naked power grab when I see one. Take a look at Section 8 of Paulson’s bailout plan. He gets to be the absolute czar without oversight or review. No way. Just no way.
Mary
Too late.
Obama just came out in a press conference and openly admitted that he AGREES with Senator Dodd’s change of wording from “mortgage issues” to “financial issues.”
What that means, and Obama was asked directly if that’s what he meant, is that Dodd wants to EXPAND the bailout from just mortgages to credit cards, car loans, and student loans, too.
With which, of course, Barak Obama agreed completely.
So there ya go.
Not only did Dems not have the balls to stand against the bailout, but they EXPANDED the bailout to include more than Paulson actually wanted.
Pony up. You’ll be paying for other people’s credit card debt, too. And their student loans. And their car loans.
Is this what Obama calls “bipartisanship?”
imbecile
why call the wall street fund managers and bosses “idiots”?
They knew what they were risking and now they’re having a good time trying to rip of the US treasury, which itself will have to borrow from more ominous creditors.
They’re smart, and they’re keeping their big pay instead of putting their own fortunes into fixing their own damn scheme company. They don’t seem like idiots to me. Oddly, this is a case where the idiots are those advocating for big government interference in the private sector. Reduces commercial freedom, destroys government’s own wealth, funnels hard earned taxpayer dollars of the poor to rich and super rich bastards.
Stupid is Obama caving in and Barney Frank being so proud that he can show there is a role for government, to let the rich screw the poor to the wall.
That’ll be how the republicans paint it, if they get desperate. Not just if it passes.