First things first. Stop sending money. We have passed the 800 needed for the re-design, and are in fact up to 860.00. Thank you, and I have already contacted the website designer. Any additional money will be spent on toys for Tunch or something sinful.
On to the debate.
I loved the format. I think that Obama did a fine job, ceded no ground, got a few jabs in, and was by no means risky or dangerous and did not have any gaffes. I felt he came across as sincere, earnest, and safe.
McCain looked cranky and old, regurgitated talking points, and seemed to cycle between grumpy and phony. The name dropping may impress some people, but I was not impressed.
On substance, McCain is just wrong about a number of things. He is wrong about Kissinger and the other Secretaries of State. He is wrong about tactics and strategy- it is he who does not understand the difference, which is really quite embarrasing, given his years in the military. he may have thought saying “You don’t understand” would make him seem knowledgeable and more ready, it just made him look like an asshole.
According to what I saw on CNN, McCain tanked with the Independents. This was a clear win for Obama, at worst a tie. McCain needed a win, and did not get in.
Next week, Palin talks for 90 minutes. Think about that.
*** Update ***
Larison is pretty damned funny, and worth a read, especially on Obama’s weaknesses.
*** Update #2 ***
Someone should Lexis-nexis the 2000 post-debate coverage in which they chided Gore for his sighing. I remember a lot of talk about how the debates were a time to let voters decide what candidate they wanted in their house for the next four years and blah blah blah kill me now you inane loudmouths.
If we were to use the Al Gore criteria, John McCain got his ass kicked tonight. He was a cranky old SOB, scowling and ranting “You don’t understand” and generally just a dick. Folks on tv are calling it “vintage McCain.” Loosely translated, that means everyone knows he is a dick, they just can not say it on tv.
Also, Idiocracy is on HBO2. Some people claim it is a comedy. I think of it as a documentary.
*** Update #3 ***
My main stylistic impression was that Obama was crisper than usual, sharper, and more aggressive than in his debates with Clinton.
Well, yeah. McCain and his band of morons are not going to accuse Obama of sexism. Clinton was DYING for the opportunity.
And for those of you who lost your shorts playing the drinking game:
*** Update #4 ***
Unintentional comedy at the Weekly Standard:
My scorecard says that McCain won the night 7-1, which frankly surprises me.
Yes, we are all shocked.
dmsilev
Yeah, tie goes to the guy who’s already ahead. McCain needed a game-changer, especially since this was supposed to be the area where Obama was weakest.
Didn’t happen.
No real YouTube moments either, so I doubt this is going to move people much in either direction. Which is a win for Obama.
-dms
cleek
You lying so low in the weeds
I bet you gonna ambush me
You’d have me down down down down on my knees
Now wouldn’t you, Sarahcuda?
If the real thing don’t do the trick
You better make up something quick
You gonna burn burn burn burn it to the wick
Ooooooh, Sarahcuda?
Mike in MI
Luntz focus group favors Obama.
Anderson Cooper on the prospects of Palin dropping in for comment, “Don’t hold your breath.”
anticontrarian
john mccain wants to ‘win’ in iraq because we ‘lost’ in vietnam. barack obama understands that we have to cut our losses there because it’s not as important as other things we have to deal with.
john mccain is a dick, and will kick you in the nuts if you get in a fight with him. barack obama is tough enough to get kicked in the nuts and still fight fair.
john mccain isn’t man enough to look a man in the eyes when he sticks the knife, or tries to.
JL
Thanks John for the update on your fundraising, I’ll send more to the Obama campaign.
Gus
Comedy gold!
El Cid
McCain’s entire foreign policy presentation consists of repeating the phrase “The SURGE ™” as many times as possible, throwing in David Petraeus and Ronald Reagan as can be done.
cmohr
As in 2000, however, we’ll have to wait two to four days to see to what extent the McCain forces succeed or fail in spinning this debate to their advantage, and vice-versa for the Obama forces. What will be the dominant MSM meme?
This may not be as apparent from our early impressions tonight as we might prefer, although I think odds are that Obama did well enough to hold off McCain from gaining significant momentum from this debate, especially in light of the focus returning so quickly tomorrow on the economic crisis.
CBeck
I think I’m going to need a great deal more beer for the VP debate.
For a while we had ‘JM says something douchey – 1 drink’, but we ran out of beer.
Mike in MI
Biden on Fox hammers the tactics/strategy point. “Any military person will tell you the surge was a tactic to achieve the strategy of political stability. Hasn’t happened.”
Incertus
The big key is that this was McCain’s strong suit, and he couldn’t even get a clear win. Wait until the next debate, which is on Obama’s strong suit, assuming there’s anything left to wipe up after Palin collapses into a heap of speaking-in-tongues on the debate stage with Biden.
Danton
McCain says “You don’t understand.” But Obama says “You were wrong.” So I think Obama won, because you really can’t say “youn don’t understand” if “you were wrong.”
dingding
Cannot fucking wait for the Palin freak show. Barry won, hands-down!
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Nate Silver says that the Mediacurves focus groups/instant polls showed the usual partisan support, but independents called it for Obama 61-39, while a CBS news poll of 500 uncommitted voters gave it to Obama 40-22, with 38% calling it a tie. Hopefully the post-debate spin won’t erode those numbers.
The Thinking Man's Mel Torme
what Pat Buchanan said: McCain was tough, and won on points.
what Tweety said: Obama was channeling Nixon by agreeing with McCain, making the latter look better.
what Greenspan’s punch said: McCain had the emotional moments.
In short, it gives the MSM back the horserace they want. We all lose.
The Dangerman
Just out of curiosity; McCain suspended his campaign (yeah, I know he didn’t really, but he said he did). Is he ever going to “unsuspend” it by, ya know, telling us all?
Ron Beasley
I said that what McCain had to do was not look like a crazy angry old man and I think he was succesful in that. We agree that he needed a win and didn’t get it. As for Palin next Thursday _ ain’t gonna happen! They are going to find a reason to cancle the VP debate or Palin is going to decide she really needs to spend more time with her family between now and then.
saintlywife
Anyone else pissed that Obama ignored McSame’s assertions that he’s done so much for veterans, and that he gave him props — PROPS! — for his stance on torture?
I loved his performance overall, but those two things had me throwing empties at the TV (and I only yelled at the “Russia instigated against Georgia” moments!)
Sarah Barracuda
I heard that. Did ya know I can skin a Moose in less than 90 minutes, loud mouth bloggers even faster.
Anonymous JIm
Biden has been on FoxNews, MSNBC and CNN. Hiding Palin is giving the dems extra free time. If they want to keep ceding that; sounds good to me.
gopher2b
I thought McCain won the economics portion and Obama won global issues (it wasn’t really “national security”). McCain won economics largely because he managed to frame the issue. I look back on that section of the debate and all I remember is “pork.” During that portion, McCain was more succinct, passionate, and prepared than Obama.
McCain routinely misrepresented Obama’s record but all Obama said was “that’s not true.” If you are going to do that, you need to nail him with why that’s not true. Saying “that’s not true” is not enough.
Obama, both in demeanor and language, clearly handled the foreign policy issues better but he agreed with McCain way too much. To be clear, there is nothing wrong with agreeing with your opponent but you are just wasting words at that point. Something he said must have been wrong, point it out.
I really didn’t find McCain’s demeanor to be “grumpy” or “cranky.” I actually found him to be more lucid than I expected but that may be just me (and my low expectations).
Obama could have used a theme tonight and it would have been easy: McCain and the Republicans create these huge crisises, fix them on the margins, and then claim victory. If you want the next four years to look like this, then vote for him. I will not create any new crisises (spelling?); I will solve the ones that already exist. He didnt do that and missed a great opportunity to really frame the issue.
All this being said, I doubt Obama will lose or gain any points. It was largely a draw but Obama needs to be more aggressive.
kommrade jakevich
Obama won? But yesterday I saw ads saying McPOW won!
Sarah Barracuda
I heard that. Did ya know Mr. Cole, I can skin a Bull Moose in less than 90 minutes, and smart ass blogger’s even faster.
Think about that!
Not My Fault
I did my best to watch with an open mind, and this is what I saw:
No knockout punch either way. I think Obama did better, but … I would think that. I don’t think he put it away tonight.
Both candidates avoided answering some of the questions. Lehrer was a trooper with the “what does this crisis change in your plans” question, but other than a vague mention of delay (from Obama) neither candidate would touch it.
I would say that the complexities of the Russia/Georgia situation are now officially down the memory hole, but they were never in the public’s conscienceness in the first place, so … sigh.
McCain was much more grating than Obama. I obviously should have been drinking on “you don’t understand” and “Ronald Regan” I didn’t find anything that Obama was doing to be as annoying. If I were truly independent, would Obama’s repeatedly trying to pin Bush on McCain have been as annoying?
Oh my god! Right at the end. Do you know I was a POW? Probably wouldn’t have annoyed me if I weren’t pre-annoyed by McCain.
All told:
Disappointing Obama (I wanted him to shine, not just do OK)
Grumpy and annoying but better than I expected McCain.
Brian J
1. I didn’t get a chance to see the debate, as I was at work, but a friend got me worried that Obama did badly because he sent me a text that said just that. Of course, I could tell when I called him on my ride home that he was kidding. I could imagine Obama doing badly–everyone has off nights, and it wouldn’t shock me for the good feelings I’ve been having to come back down to earth–but once he said Obama broke down in tears, I was, ahem, convinced he was full of it.
2. Biden is on MSNBC right now talking to Olbermann, and he’s kicking ass in my opinion. He comes across as, well, just a guy who knows what he’s doing. He’s tearing into McCain but without resorting to cheap shots. He’s sincere in his criticism.
3. I started to talk to a table tonight about what was going on in the financial markets because the husband was an accountant. I didn’t really come away with anything, because I didn’t really get a chance to ask him a lot, except to be reminded to look into a certain type of accounting procedure. But what really struck me was when I mentioned that McCain swooped in and made a mess of the bailout negotiations as part of his grandstanding, and this couple said that depended on what sources you read. This seemed ridiculous to me, but they said they’d vote for me if I ran for anything, so I guess I can’t be completely angry.
Incertus
gopher2b,
I think Obama did just fine in reacting to McCain’s lies, especially when McCain tried to hit him with the “not supporting the troops” bullshit. The response was perfect–I voted for a bill with a timetable, you voted for one without it. It was a clear description of the bullshit charge without falling into the “for it before I was against it” trap.
Ted
Yeah, Christmas is coming way early this year.
Just Some Fuckhead
And Christ on a crutch, why won’t anyone point out that McCain couldn’t even look Obama in the eye?? This guy is supposed to stare down the leaders of the world and he can’t even make eye contact with his debate opponent? We’re doomed.
Delia
GOS has the list of online polls for you to go vote and confirm that McCain is a dick. Actually, the only one that disagrees is Drudge.
Oh yeah, and KO’s show on MSNBC thinks BO won.
tBone
As far as the issues go, McCain distorted the shit out of everything as expected, but I doubt non- political junkies picked up on it. So pretty much a draw in my view, which is a net win for Obama since this was supposed to be McCain’s strong suit.
McCain was a lot better than I expected early on, but his answers got progessively less coherent and more rambling as the debate went on. There were a few moments there where I was expecting him to offer me a butterscotch and then tell me a long boring story about cutting wood for the boiler at school when he was a boy.
Obama held his own on foreign policy but he still didn’t have a good counter for The Surge™ bullshit, and he let McCain steer the conversation too much during the economy segment.
Overall I doubt this will move the dials at all, although McCain’s demeanor may come back to haunt him if the media makes it an issue. He seemed like a real dick at several points, while Obama came off as gracious but tough throughout.
By the way, did you know John McCain was
a POWnever voted Miss Congeniality in the Senate?Robert Johnston
Well, maybe if you find a ruptured spleen comedic. Forcing people to listen to 90 minutes of Palin is within even the Bush administration’s definition of torture.
Comrade NonyNony
Rumors that are coming from out of my ass say that Palin will drop out of the race over the weekend and Mavericky McCain will call up a real populist GOPer to shore up his flank on the domestic side after this mediocre debate performance on foreign policy. So Indiana Rep – and friend of this blog – Eric Cantor will be tapped as Maverick VP #2!
You heard it here first, folks. Mark your calendars – McMaverick is going to shake things up before Tuesday night!
Comrade Texas Dem
This was a draw. McCain needed a clear win in order to change the dynamics of the race, and he didn’t get one. But the VP debate next week could be decisive. Question: how will the format be different from this debate. I know it’s more restrictive, but how restrictive? If there’s no opportunity for the candidates to mix it up, can’t Palin simply regurgiate talking points and win based on what will clearly be very low expectations?
jt
McCain held his own, which is to say that this was no game changer. This debate was supposed to show that Obama is out of his depth in foreign policy and clearly held his own. McCain simply decided to respond “Senator Obama doesn’t understand” or “Senator Obama is naive” every time Obama said anything. Consequently Obama frequently made perfectly reasonable or cogent points, only to have McCain ridicule them. Who looked like the out-of-it loser then?
Pundits should jump on the following McCain gaffes, though:
1. Pakistan was a “failed state” when Musharraf came to power. WTF? It may have been really corrupt and chaotic, but hell, so are Thailand and Bolivia. Are they failed states?
2. Strategy vs. tactics. McCain was in the military for how long and his misses this?
3. Having no clue what “preconditions” are in diplomatic parlance. Obama was spot on on this one, only to have McCain claim he was “parsing” the word. If by parsing, you mean using it in accordance with its most widely accepted usage in a given context, then yeah.
carsick
It’s over. Obama proved he will be unflappable. Agree with his positions or not, he showed he’s ready. McCain? Combine his choice for VP and, no matter what, the guy needed a game changer on foreign policy and he didn’t accomplish it.
It was a game changer in the sense that McCain didn’t show he’s a clear leader.
Obama won.
Tara the antisocial social worker
Expect some sort of hissy-fit from the R’s tomorrow.
Reviews on the final Bush-Kerry debate were tame but leaned toward Kerry – until Cheney hit with the “OMG he called my daughter a LESBIAN!” meme, which is the only thing anyone remembers about that debate.
They’re just waiting for the faxes to arrive with the talking points for tomorrow’s collective freak-out. Possibly Obama wore his flag pin on the wrong lapel or something.
Tara the antisocial social worker
Expect some sort of hissy-fit from the R’s tomorrow.
Reviews on the final Bush-Kerry debate were tame but leaned toward Kerry – until Cheney hit with the “OMG he called my daughter a LESBIAN!” meme, which is the only thing anyone remembers about that debate.
They’re just waiting for the faxes to arrive with the talking points for tomorrow’s collective freak-out. Possibly Obama wore his flag pin on the wrong lapel or something.
Comrade Texas Dem
This was a draw. McCain needed a clear win in order to change the dynamics of the race, and he didn’t get one. But the VP debate next week could be decisive. Question: how will the format differ from this debate. I know it’s more restrictive, but how restrictive? If there’s no opportunity for the candidates to mix it up, can’t Palin simply repeat her talking points and win based on what will clearly be very low expectations?
g-rant
How about two monitors, can we pay for that. I’ve always wanted two monitors…
nicethugbert
Biden is on TV. Where is Palin? HAHAH Guiliani took her place! Jeebus camp gets dumped!
When he got out of prison? McPrisoner couldn’t say Vietnam? Pathetic, chasing sympathy.
Oh, no lapel pin, McCommie!
SamFromUtah
Palin talks for 90 minutes. Think about that
Not that they won’t try to skip out on it.
Just Some Fuckhead
That’d be great news for Virginia if it was true.
HumboldtBlue
That caught my ear also, but McCain did enough paw-scratching to get a press run outta this.
Robert Fredson
McCain easily won this debate by being the only candidate that will not surrender to the terrorists in Iraq.
The guy flat out won’t admit that the surge is working, that we are winning the war, and it’s a war we must win. How can Obama even think this way?
Oh, that’s right, because he has a dual loyalty.
patroclus
Many, many many youtube moments. The Ahmadinejad mis-pronunciation for sure. But the best was the “You were Wrong” montage from Obama about Iraq, which went completely unanswered by McCain. And the Spain reference. And the singing about bombing Iran jab too. But the best youtube would be to do a montage with McCain’s continual contemptuous facial references (like Al Gore’s sighs) showing his rudeness and boorishness.
Clear W for Obama with Dems and independents! Wingnuts will like McCain’s strong bluster, but the appeal, in my view, won’t extend beyond them much (except for concern trolls and nervous nellies).
Apsalar
Long island iced teas are just an alcohol delivery mechanism, right? But they were nicely designed.
I think McCain did alright, but that smirk was getting on my nerves. I imagine his staff told him he needs to look “pleasant” but he can’t really do that, so it just comes across as creepy or condescending. Obama should flash that big smile more often.
Just sent another $100 to Obama. And it’s team for another LIIT.
Pooh
Darrell? Is that you?
Comrade Warren Terra
John, since you’re at least $60 over, you should refund Michael D. his dough, in partial return for his posting duties (or, alternatively, you should shake down Tim F. to be fair).
On the actual debate, as best as I can approximate evenhandedness, I thought no major points were scored, though I thought Obama was clearly better and more serious on the economy (and McCain’s sudden introduction of an arbitrary spending freeze that’s never been discussed scares me). I liked Obama making McCain own the Iraq invasion. McCain seemed to have the stronger and more forceful closing, and somehow seemed to have much more time for his closing. But at the end of the day if Obama wasn’t bleeding then he was still leading – and he was fine.
With, of course, the caveat that the media may, for their own amusement, convince the country that one contestant crushed the other, as in the famous Gore Sighed Debate.
Jess
It was clear by the end that McCain really, really hates Obama, and is taking this very personally. The way he couldn’t look at him, and kept clenching his jaw when Obama was driving a point home, started to get scary. No wonder McCain’s been acting so squirrelly lately… that kind of hate is going to mess with his judgment and stability even more. Obama has a big advantage that’s he’s able to stay detached and even-keeled during confrontations.
DaveInOz
I don’t suppose that many other people here in Melbourne were watching the debate – it’s AFL Grand Final Day here today.
I was pretty impressed with Obama’s coolness today. The Surge tactics-strategy argument was probably over most people’s heads. I hoped that Obama would have pushed the issue that the objective of ‘The Surge’ was political reconciliation which hasn’t happened yet, regardless of the recent vote on elections (which kicked the Kirkuk can down the road). Plus the fact that ‘The Surge’ wasn’t the only reason for the drop in violence.
At the end of the day, it wasn’t the game-changer that McCain needed.
Now on to important matters! Geelong or Hawthorn?
Incertus
Shorter Robert Fredson: Someone please change my diaper.
nicethugbert
I think Obama needs a stronger response to McPorks earmark skit.
The populated states send more money to the feds than they get back. I think they deserve the earmarks more than the welfare states do. Ungrateful Redstaters! Not that I oppose sharing, it’s just the ungratful lecturing I have a problem with.
In general, Obama just needs to shut McCain down hard and fast and not let up. Tieing is not winning.
Comrade NonyNony
Crap. I should have looked it up. I KNEW my ass wasn’t a trustworthy source…
Martin
I expect Palin to go into labor 4 minutes before the debate. No, the Republicans won’t notice that it isn’t possible, but they’ll be behind her 100%.
And if there is a narrative from this, what was mentioned in the debate was pretty weak tea on either side, IMO. But what’s up with McCain not even being able to look at Obama, even when Obama is directly speaking to him? How can McCain be bipartisan and engage in diplomacy with an Iranian leader when he can’t even make eye contact with his opponent?
gopher2b
I liked that point and I got it. I hope it was as clear to the people who are tuning in for the first time.
Two more thoughts I’ve had:
(1) I don’t trust and “independents” who agree to participate in a CNN broadcast of the first debate. Unless they flew to the middle of Ohio, randomly plucked these fuckers and brought them to NY, they’re not representative of anything.
(2) My mom, who lives with me because she’s the cheapest nanny I could find, thought McCain won “barely”. But, she was disgusted by the bracelet and thought everyone could see through that. (For background, she’s a nurse, probably leans right slightly, and would have voted for Hillary and never told my father that she did).
carsick
By the way,
I watched with a friend who is definitely not an Obama supporter (maybe Barr or Paul if not McCain), he was taken by the fact that McCain couldn’t even look at Obama. He was very impressed by Obama’s confidence and he didn’t think it was false. Whereas, he thought McCain was unable to deal with an opposing view and therefore couldn’t even face Obama.
Delia
Here is the basic problem with debating John McCain: when things aren’t going his way he lies, just flat out lies. I did debate way back in high school and I remember the whole principle was to have mountains of facts available on 3×5 cards in a file that one could bring up on a moment’s notice in response to an opponent’s argument. But McCain just makes shit up.
Now here’s an interesting point. I’m listening to KO’s show and Buchanan speaking. He gives the debate to McCain, of course, on points, BUT, he thinks that Obama’s graciousness and general niceness, as well as his ability to counterpunch, may have won more people to him.
tBone
…snore…
The quality of wingnut trolls has really gone in the shitter over the past few months. This guy isn’t fit to wipe the spittle and Cheetoh dust off Darrell’s chin.
Brian J
Cantor’s from Virginia, but whatever.
I can’t imagine it’s the case, but if it is, please, oh please, let it be Giuliani, like some were speculating. That would be a train wreck of epic proportions. Imagine the dueling headlines of McCain saying that Libya and its Hindu peoples were in South Carolina and Giuliani’s endless supply of cronies. If that were to happen, even before the base revolt at the removal of Palin, McCain and Giuliani would go down in flames, losing a miniumum of thirty states.
Comrade PeterJ
It will be 90 minutes of WorldPress Snark Error Overload.
If they change the format to pretaped answers then it might help her. Anything else will not stop the FAIL.
Just Some Fuckhead
Your ass was wrong about the debate too. :)
Incertus
That was just shitty story-telling all the way around, and I thought Obama countered it nicely with his own story, thus pointing out that no one gets to own all the sympathy on this issue.
DonnaInMichigan
One thing about McCain..
He doesn’t talk about ME, …and ME as a middle class person. Everything tonight was about HIM. I went there, and I visited there and I met this person and that person……big whoopdedoo…….
In fact, in my opinion came off very arrogant and condescending to Obama…..and to me as a middle class person, I was highly offended.
But I guess that is what happens when you marry a heiress, own 7 mansions, 13 cars, a private jet, and live in luxury, you are just dis-connected with the middle class.
Comrade John Cole
McCain is just a dick, and IS unable to deal with differing opinions. The way his addled old brain works, you really are with him or against him.
Fraud Guy
Next week, Palin talks for 90 minutes. Think about that.
Do I need to start drinking now?
Jess
By the way, John, I wasn’t going to donate to the site this time (all cash goes to the MUP this month), but I am tempted to kick in a few bucks for Tunch’s toys…
ninerdave
Well Word Press ate my well thought out, original and deep analysis of the debate, since that’s gone, I’ll just say that McCain seemed like a dick fully reinforcing my already held belief that McCain is indeed a dick.
gopher2b
That’s dead on. He needs to know how much Illinoisans paid in federal income taxes and say something like “the citizens of Illinois paid 3 billion in federal income taxes and I brought back 982 million to build nursing homes, improve schools, provide people with heat during cold Chicago winters as opposed to seal studies and bridges to nowwhere. Under my tax proposal, that money will stay in Illinois, and it will stay in Ohio, and it will stay in Florida because 95% of their citizens, like Illinois will pay less in taxes, not more.” Snap.
Billy K
I was out drinking tonight. I would’ve donated to fix this shit. Let me know next time the site needs money and I will be there.
dan robinson
Obama got in some subtle digs about lobbyists several times.
The next time McCain opens his mouth about the $18 billion goddamn ear marks about which he is talking out his ass, Obama needs to point out that the war in Iraq, a totally unnecessary war, is costing us $12 billion per MONTH.
In 60 months, we could pay for the entire Wall Street bailout and give some of those fucking bastards golden parachutes to boot.
$12 billion per month.
ninerdave
Mike Murphy needs to either a) shave his head or b) slick his hair down closer to his head. He looks like a fucking conehead with that current do.
And Harold Ford is a fucking tool.
Just Some Fuckhead
Prolly the day after this next fix.
zzyzx
I do think Palin will do ok next week. All she’ll have to do is repeat talking points.
tBone
Obama did bring that up at least a couple of times. Was disappointed with how he handled the earmark stuff overall, though – he should have been able to shove Palin the Earmark Queen right up the backside of McCain’s cranky pants.
Glenn
Obama was the clear winner. mccain looked tired and angry. A real mistake on his part was not looking at Obama the whole debate. Besides that mccain just seemed to be mcnasty and mcsmirk. The GOP is filled with so much anger and venom and mccain I think clearly showed that tonight. The man has a chip on his shoulder a mile high. He came across annoyed at even having to attend, maybe that’s why he was trying to cancel this whole debate? He’d just like to not have to be on the same stage with a guy he doesn’t like or respect or even thinks should be allowed to fucking vote for that matter.
Delia
Wow, Tweety is on a huge anti-McPOW rant. But thinks Obama should have done a better job.
gopher2b
That drove me nuts too. After McCain rattled off some wild ass number for the 8th time I so desperately wanted Obama to say: “John, if you are going to make up numbers, why not just say GaZillion-tra-billion. It sounds bigger.” That probably would have been unpresidential though.
Davis X. Machina
They can’t unload Palin — the god-botherers would rather lose with her than win without her — in fact I think they secretly would prefer to lose, insofar as no one hunts down winners and persecutes them and makes them worship in catacombs and stuff.
And Cantor’s a Joo.
Comrade NonyNony
Ayup. Bill O’Reilly and a number of other wingnuts on teevee do that crap all of the time. I’ve had family members pull this thing all the time on me too – shutting me down in a debate by making up a fact that I can’t really refute on the spur of the moment. McCain is the first professional politician I’ve ever seen do it, though. But since McCain’s campaign has had no compunction about blatantly lying, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Intersting thing to keep in mind about Buchanan – he’s an actual trained pundit. He can defend any position he sets his mind to defend if he wants to. He’s very talented in that way. And when he’s hired to be the Republican pundit on a show, he seems to do his damndest to represent the Republican pundit viewpoint.
But if you read his writing – like what he does for American Conservative magazine – you can see that he is not happy with the Republican party right now. Specifically he’s not happy with the neo-con takeover of the party because he’s a traditional conservative and he thinks they’ve been a disaster. And McCain is, more than anything else, a continuation of the disastrous “More War, Less Taxes” mantra of the neo-con faction.
So I can see Buchanan deciding that he’s being paid to be the Republican mouthpiece but deciding he doesn’t have to go crazy partisan about it and can let some honesty slip in.
oh really
First, I listened to the debate on the radio. I didn’t see it on TV.
When the debate was over, my nephew called me. He is 25 and a staunch Obama supporter. He watched the debate on television, and he thought McCain walked all over Obama.
I listened to it on the radio…and I thought McCain walked all over Obama. I’m surprised by the reactions of most people in this thread, although watching and listening are very different experiences.
I will be interested to see what happens in the polls after this first debate (actually, I’m dreading it). I have no idea how the “independents/undecideds” will respond to tonight.
Probably what sticks in my mind most was how many times McCain (who I loathe) went after Obama aggressively and smashed him with the “Obama doesn’t understand” sledge hammer, and how many times Obama said he agrees with Senator McCain.
I’m going to vote for president not debate champion, but I was astounded by how passive Obama was. I kept hearing him say in the background, “But that’s not true, John, that’s just not true.” He sounded weak and ineffectual.
I really hope the independents/undecideds aren’t looking for four more years of Bush delivered by a crazy old man.
I’ve also read a few comments over at Crooks and Liars and the ones I saw seemed to think Obama got crushed.
Fortunately, what I think doesn’t matter — I’m going to vote for Obama. I just hope the voters who do matter, don’t agree with me.
What I heard tonight was largely what I expected. In my opinion, Obama is simply a
lousyterrible debater. He has the wrong temperament and it appears that he is not adaptable enough to adjust to a confrontational format.Martin
llinois taxpayers receive less federal funding per dollar of federal taxes paid compared to the average state. In 2005, Illinois citizens received approximately $0.75 in the way of federal spending per dollar of federal taxes paid. Illinois has consistently ranked in the bottom 5 states in terms of value for their dollar paid per capita.
In dollar terms, $100B paid in 2005 in federal taxes, so the $982M represents about a 4% return on the $25B difference between taxes paid and dollars received.
Just Some Fuckhead
Yep, coming down on McCain for the debate he had. Coming down on Obama for the debate he didn’t have.
Brian J
Okay, so like I said earlier, I didn’t watch tonight’s debate yet–it’s in my DVR now–but wasn’t the topic supposed to be foreign policy? If so, why is Matthews on MSNBC saying that Obama didn’t mention enough things about how he understands people are struggling? Wouldn’t that be more appropriate in the other two debates?
photonaton
One thing kept bugging me throughout the debate…
McCain kept saying “I know how to (fill in the blank)”, and in most cases it was not clear if he ever spelled out how to (fill in the blank).
Does that immanifest self-certain TACTIC win over undecideds? Do undecideds take him at his word, or say to themselves “Yeah, then why not tell us how?”
ninerdave
You know if we’d just get rid of earmarks, there’d be enough money to give out to all bloggers so that they could redesign their site.
Random thought, wasn’t RedState trying to raise $10k to fix their site up? Guess they were just going with a no bid contract.
Shey
My take on the evening–
My father is a farmer, and my brother is the next generation farmer in the family. My father is pretty good farmer, knows how to make a good living out of it. He has been around the block a time or three, and knows tried and true methods of solving problems, and isn’t very interested in trying new things, because, well, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
My brother would like nothing more than if my father took a big year long vacation to actually bring the farm into the 21st century, to give just one example: to stop using a calculator that uses a paper tape and actually put data onto a computer to manage finances and such.
Now, if it was 1985 or 1990, I think McCain would have been spot on in his answers. But it isn’t. He was laying his perspective on foreign policy with a the old veteran who knows what he is doing, and with that regard, would probably be pretty good at it, much like how my father is a pretty good farmer. (Note, I think McCain’s foreign policy is somewhere around batshit crazy, but strictly speaking, thats not how it appeared tonight.) Obama, on the other hand, seemed to have policy that more reflected where we are today, rather than a transposition of a foreign policy from 1990 to today.
Comrade Ivan Fookinov (fmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
McCain came across as an angry old man and it was very clear that he does not like Obama, not one bit. Obama laughing at McCain trying to tie him to Bush was priceless. That was a great response and said it all; this guy is a fool.
Keith reported that CBS polling reported that Obama came in first and McCain came in third. Tied won second place. Obama scored almost 2x higher than McCain in the poll.
Obama FTW. It was no barnstormer of a debate, but not bad either.
Martin
I will be interested to see what happens in the polls after this first debate (actually, I’m dreading it). I have no idea how the “independents/undecideds” will respond to tonight.
That’s not good news for McCain. They just mentioned on CNN that for the age group 50 and over, they felt that Obama was the winner by about 10 points. The McCain camp must be hysterical right now if they lost the old folks. If McCain is seen as the loser and Palin is up next, this is catastrophic.
gopher2b
It’s clear that the SNL skit will involve McCain refusing to look at Obama. I’m guessing that the character playing McCain will go to great links to avoid looking at him. It will be HILARIOUS.
I do think they should turn the podiums 45 degrees in the next debate so they are directly facing each other. If McCain refuses to look at Obama then it’s clear he dislikes Obama. Until then, I’m reserving judgment on this issue (because its stupid and I don’t care….I noticed, thought it was weird, but otherwise didn’t really care)
tBone
Like you said, listening to it on the radio and watching it are totally different experiences. McCain looked like a sneering, condescending asshole with the “Obama just doesn’t understand” stuff, and Obama was cool and collected. If there’s one thing people will remember about this debate, it’s McCain’s creepy smirk while Obama was making a point.
xephyr
McCain’s body language, condescension and sarcastic air was offputting, although he gets points for not blowing his top. Henry Kissinger is still around? I figured he’d be in hell by now. Anyway, I thought Obama did a fine job.
DMD
Obama had a flag pin and McCain did not. What kind of bizarro world is this?
Maybe I “just don’t understand,” I too found it odd that McCain could not even look at Obama even when Lehrer told them to speak to each other (repeatedly). I was waiting for Obama to say, “I’m over here Senator!” McCain clearly does not like Obama personally.
On debate points it was a draw, but I think Obama will win on personality. Jerky McCain==Sighing Gore.
Martin
CBS Poll:
Obama: 40
McCain: 22
Tie: 38
plus C
As soon as McCain started criticizing Obama on Pakistan I had ‘bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran’ going through my head, and once he said it McCain looked to be about an inch from losing it.
I wish he had pressed the Spain incident more, especially with McCain preaching his league of democracies. “If you want a league of democracies, you need to be able to locate them on a map”.
Jess
My sister used to pull that on me, until I started demanding that she cite her sources. That cured her of that habit. But I don’t think it would work on a wingnut–they just claim that FactCheck.org is biased, and Fox news is teh Truth. It’s important to remind ourselves that our job isn’t to convince them, but to convince those who are still willing to change their minds.
Just Some Fuckhead
Many of the commenters here are inadvertantly handicapping McCain. Because he is normally such a trainwreck of a speaker, they think because he strung a few coherent sentences together and didn’t pee himself, he’s done something special. He didn’t, he just lost.
Comrade NonyNony
Dude, no. Yeah in a rational world it would have made sense, but bringing Palin into the debate in any way would have been the “John Kerry should leave my lesbian daughter alone” moment of 2004. It would have been “sexist”. He would have been “attacking her personally” or “attacking her family” or something. I don’t know. I can’t do fake right-wing outrage anymore because no matter how ridiculous I get, they’re more ridiculous.
Also I have to ask – John McCain really in all of his time in Congress has never asked for a single earmark for his state? Not one? I find that really hard to believe, but my preliminary searches suggest that it may be the case. Why the hell does his state keep re-electing him to office? Despite the rhetoric around them, earmarks are not automatically harmful – they can be used to do a lot of good and are part of the normal wheeling and dealing in the Senate. McCain is really letting his colleagues benefit their home states without getting concessions for his own? Jeebus – I wouldn’t want this guy on my side in a negotiation.
(From what I’ve read, Obama & Tancredo’s work to make things more transparent has done more to clean up the muck around earmarks than anything that John McCain has done in his entire career in the Senate. And all they did is say “hey, let’s put this information out there where citizen’s groups can see it and hold us accountable.” It’s crazy that he can make earmarks his entire domestic focus when he doesn’t seem to have cared much about them at all until a couple of years ago, and didn’t really do much to make things better other than demagogue the issue.)
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
I guess more than anything, I get dismayed at what candidates are forced to say, because if they stray from the accepted narrative, they’re finished. I hate hearing Obama:
– join the talk about “the Iraqis taking responsibility”, which is one of the most depraved statements imaginable;
– say missile defense is necessary to defend against N. Korea and Iran;
– join the mindless demonization of Iran;
– make no mention of the thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqis who have been slaughtered during this little cockup;
– rattle the saber at Russia while making no mention of our provacative presence in Georgia.
Like I said: I know he’s gotta do it, but it’s still painful.
ninerdave
Inspired analysis from Erick at RedState
Emphasis in the original
tBone
God, I loved that. “Spain. Spain! They’re one of our NATO allies!” You could practically hear the vein in McCain’s forehead throbbing.
Sherrell H.
Correct me if i’m wrong but did McCain say that he thinks Obama doesn’t have the experience needed?
and Bible Spice does??
Just Some Fuckhead
From your keyboard to God’s flatscreen.
Delia
Matthews has really been pushing the meme that McCain wouldn’t look at Obama. If this variation of the angry old man meme takes hold, he’s really sunk.
tomjones
I remarked to my significant other how striking it was the number of times that Obama would say to McCain, “John, you …blah blah blah,” or, “John, you’re a crazy old bastard.”
Can anyone remember McCain once referring to Obama as “Barack?”
Martin
538 has a good observation. Most people don’t watch this intently – they watch in the background (as I did putting the kids to bed, running to the fridge for more beer, I repaired a broken chair etc.)
For those of you who listened on the radio, watch it on CNN (replaying right now) with the sound off, or while doing something else. Obama wins because his body language is confident and comfortable while McCain is agitated.
If you don’t think it’s important, think again:
dobrojutro
As someone who followed the Balkan crisis closely, the Bosnia line sounded fishy to me:
“I supported us going into Bosnia, when a number of my own party and colleagues was against that operation in Bosnia. That was the right thing to do, to stop genocide and to preserve what was necessary inside of Europe.”
and fishy it is, per this 10/16/2006 TNR article:
During Clinton’s first term, McCain remained wary of sending troops overseas. He called for bringing U.S. forces home from Somalia and opposed intervening in Haiti. He also backed the administration’s initial refusal to commit forces to Bosnia, where Serbs were engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Muslim and Croat populations. McCain argued that, because the conflict did not bear on America’s “vital national interests,” it did not justify the use of force. Moreover, McCain doubted whether American power could really do any good in Bosnia. U.S. efforts in the Balkans, he lamented in May 1995, were “doomed to failure from the beginning, when we believed that we could keep peace in a place where there was no peace.”
He later changed his position after the Srebrenica genocidal murders.
This works with the “McCain gets blindsided by crises just like the Bushies” theme.
slip
Boy, I wish Obama would pivot hard on that bear DNA earmark. “John, you’ve got around 3 million miles worth of mileage on those bears in Montana. The treads are kind of worn on that story. Maybe you should try something new. How about seals in Alaska? Ask your running mate about it.”
tBone
Nah. The only ones who would have cared are wingnuts; everyone else knows what a disaster Palin is already.
Something I haven’t seen anybody bring up: what was with the whole League of Democracy or whatever he was babbling about? Would they have cool matching spandex suits and capes? Would they be the arch-enemies of the United Nations? I want to hear more about this.
Comrade NonyNony
The “bizarro” world where there’s a rabid bunch of dorks on the right who like to pick fights over meaningless crap that can make a Democrat “look” like he’s not a patriot. On the left no one would attack someone for not being patriotic for not wearing a flag pin because the argument is objectively stupid on its face. On the right objectively stupid arguments are all they have most of the time.
I don’t know. Maybe it’s personal animus. Maybe McCain can only keep Obama in his mind as an “enemy” if he refuses to see him as an individual. Maybe McCain practiced hard over the week to look sincere while facing a camera and was put off by the fact that Lehrer wanted them to talk to each other instead.
Don’t know, but it does seem that the narrative coming out on the teevee is that McCain “couldn’t even look at Obama”. If SNL really does pick that up, it’ll be as embedded in the narrative as tightly as Gore’s sighing was. Surprisingly, American voters who pay attention to debates don’t seem to like it when the candidates are disrespectful to each other.
handy
I commented on another blog to the effect that if the world were fair, the MSM would be all over McCain’s churlish, condescending performance tonight, and for once, we’d finally have a narrative that favored the Democrat. They really owe us this, especially in light of all their pearl-clutching over McSame’s supposedly new found path to lying in his campaign.
Comrade Kolkhoznik Jon H
When Obama hit McCain for the Zapatero gaffe, I could have sworn I heard McCain say “horseshit” under his breath.
Bob In Pacifica
Do you think that the next time someone talks about the grave threat of a nuclear holocaust against Israel someone could mention that Israel has enough nukes to make everything from Tangiers to Tashkent glow?
protected static
I’ll settle for the Hague.
The Other Steve
You people all obviously don’t understand are incredibly naive.
Davis X. Machina
Hey, he’s been a Senator since forever. It’s his f*cking country.
And don’t you forget it.
Bob In Pacifica
By the way, Senator Obama doesn’t understand that McCain wasn’t voted Miss Congeniality but was a POW.
Martin
That’s the difference between a first and 3rd party reference. After the initial reminder that these guys can address each other, Obama would periodically (though not always smoothly) turn and address McCain directly, with no acknowledgement from McCain. McCain never directly addressed Obama – he always spoke through the moderator.
plus C
I’m getting pictures of an SNL sketch where McCain starts popping Vicodin, rips off the top of the podium, and possibly transforms into the Hulk and storms out of the room in search of earmarks to smash.
Martin
Not to mention that if Iran wants a nuke, it’s probably just a matter of a few supertankers of oil trade to Pakistan to get one of theirs. All this ‘enrichment’ worry is dumb. Building their own is dangerous, and they have enough money to buy one and not get caught.
tBone
And, at a number of points during the evening, directly out of his ass. The fact check comparisons should be fun.
Comrade John Cole
As long as he storms out of the room.
SNL is going to be brutal. Obama up 5-7 in the polls on Monday.
handy
Probably because he thinks Obama’s an uppity nigra
Comrade NonyNony
I’m fairly certain that when McCain was chiding Obama for saying what US policy would be on his watch out loud instead of “keeping it quiet”, this is one of those things that would fit into that category.
It’s an “open secret” that Israel has nukes. But they won’t confirm it and the US won’t talk about it. So no, no one will ever call anyone on this because we’re not supposed to talk about it, just hint at it.
Liz
God, I hope Obama starts really pissing McCain off earlier in the debate next time. Maybe he’ll rile him enough for him to really show his true colors, if what I’ve heard about McCain’s temper is true… past the tooth-grinding and inability to look at him. With a lot of ‘luck’, Obama gets to demonstrate his ability to dodge a thrown punch from an old man. Election won. But I won’t hold my breath on that last bit.
As for 90 minutes of Palin, there’s not enough rum on the planet to make that remotely tolerable. I may have to drill into the strategic whiskey reserve to supplement it.
Jess
Going after her would have been like picking on the handicapped kid. Much better to ignore her or treat her with pity.
FLILF Hunter
I wound up listening rather than watching, so I didn’t see any of the non-eye-contact crap, but man did Dick’s voice ooze with contempt. It fairly dripped out of my speakers.
Here’s how this plays out: Letterman starts off the week by calling out Dick in front of the entire country for standing him up (for nothing), then Dick goes before said country and acts like himself toward Obama. This is the “narrative” that dare not speak its name, but most people will instinctively absorb…
McCain is a fucking dick. And no one likes a dick.
Not a good week for McCain.
Delia
Norah O’Donnell did mention that McInsane may get mocked on Saturday night.
Liz
Oh, and side note: I’m with you on the sadly documentary-feeling nature of Idiocracy. I was torn between laughing my ass off and crying through chunks, because I really see us sliding into that hideous pit of apathy and anti-intellectualism.
blackfrancis789
BRAWNDO!!! It’s got electrolytes!!!
Delia
Here’s a tip: when you’ve just composed a well thought out and deep original post to BJ, right-click Copy before you click Submit Comment. Then your deep thought won’t be lost to all posterity. That’s what I’ve started doing. At least when I’m not distracted.
Robert Fredson
Smearing Palin only reinforces the loss tonight.
nicethugbert
Now that I think of it, I think Obama let McCain slide on the earmark skit because the next debate is on the economy, unless McDramaQueen pulls another stunt. So, he’s not going to tip his hand by trashing the Earmark Skit now. He’ll let McEarmark get comfortable with it first, then ruin the skit, driving McCain into a hissy fit. Earmarks are one of McFundamental’s signature skits for years now.
Juan del Llano
I’m totally for Obama, but what the hell: I thought he slaughtered McCain by being cool, smart, tough, and presidential. McCain is old and incoherent. I mean, this is a joke, right? One of these guys is ready to be a whup-ass president who digs the big picture, and the other one needs to be in a home.
Dang. I saw a president, and I saw a fool. Can I please vote 20 times?
iluvsummr
Yes I’m sure it was hard for you to watch McCain lose (tell him to watch his body language in the future), but I’d think you’d want to keep our minds off the upcoming Palin debate disaster. I’ll have to go through several bottles of beer to get through that one without crying from embarrassment for her.
Comrade NonyNony
Oh, you’re mising some of the better parts of this…
McCain ducks out on Letterman and LIES to him, telling him that he’s flying out to DC to work on the crisis when instead he’s up the street talking to Katie Couric while Letterman is taping. Letterman calls him out for being a dick AND shows that he’s a liar on national TV in a segment that gets passed around the YouTubes.
Sarah Palin has a disastrous interview that is starting to get liberals that I know feeling fucking sorry for her because MCCAIN put her in a bad situation by asking her to run (I don’t personally ascribe to this thought process, as I think it’s sexist to not let her own her own FAIL, but I’m talking narrative here). One of the independents I know basically said something similar – this reinforces the idea that McCain is a dick.
Then McCain swoops into Congress and initial word out of the meetings he’s in is that he contributes nothing but derails a deal they had going on with his grandstanding. Dems reinforce these reports by basically blaming McCain for pulling “Presidential politics” into the discussions, and this gets reinforced even more when talk of the deal being “back on track” come out at the exact same time that he leaves town for Mississippi. (I know how he wanted this to play, but the narrative this week is “McCain is a dick” and that makes him look like – A DICK!)
Then he shows up to Mississippi and acts like a dick on camera. At this point the narrative is locked in place – he’s a dick. Plus, he spouts some drivel a few times that is untrue and gets instantly rebutted by Obama. Normally this would end up with a he-said/he-said moment and folks would probably tune it out. But McCain is a dick. And the narrative is also set that he’s a liar (nicely reinforced by McCain himself earlier this week on Letterman). So the benefit of the doubt goes to Obama – McCain’s probably lying because that’s what liars do. What a dick.
The more I think about it, the more I think blowing off Letterman at the last minute by transparently lying to him was a really bad idea. I knew it was a bad idea earlier this week, but now I’m thinking it was a REALLY bad idea.
Martin
I don’t think that – I think he, Mr. Bottom 1% Of His Class has always hated the smart slick guys that quickly rose to the top. I’m sure he got an earful from dad and grandpa about those ROTC pukes that didn’t earn it by humping across Normandy beach…
Delia
TPM has a psychotherapist and a, um, monkey behavior researcher writing in to explain McCranky’s refusal to make eye contact with Obama. It just gets better and better.
Joe Max
My friends and I are going over to the local revival movie house, which is showing the debates on their big screen. They also serve beer and wine, and the seating is bar tables and big couches. The perfect setting!
(BTW, any Balloon Juicers from the SF Bay Area, join us at the Parkway Theater in Oakland for pure comedy platinum!)
binzinerator
My prediction (straight from my ass): The wingnuts will make a big noise about the bracelet thing.
Mavericky McCondescension’s stupid pandering story of his bracelet as a reminder of the those Who Must Not Die In Vain will be all good things for McCain, and Obama’s great comeback “I’ve got a bracelet too” will become a sophmoric and disrespectful insult toward the troops.
I thought it was a great riposte by Obama, but that’s exactly why it will become remanufactured and made into a big negative for him. They always focus on the little things that can be twisted, spun, inflated and used to get the bobbleheads whooping it up as a fatal gaffe or a meme of derision just like what they did with their BS about Gore’s sighs.
They don’t have jack, so they’re going to manufacture it.
My prediction, anyways.
Beej
Howard Fineman, speaking on KO’s after-debate show, said that the McCain campaign is planning to use Obama’s numerous “you’re right, John”s as fodder for their talking points and ads. I’m betting that we hear far fewer of them in the next presidential debate.
If the VIP debate allows any leeway for talking to each other or rebutting the opponent’s point, it’s going to be a bloodbath. Biden will tear Palin into tiny little pieces, smiling all the while.
FLILF Hunter
So true that it’s going to be the McCain campaign’s epitaph.
Even though Dave’s been in New York for 2.5 decades, he’s still a Hoosier through and through. He’s always had that upper mid-western sensibility: you don’t drop in someone without calling first, and you don’t cancel unless it’s to go the emergency room. He connects with the heartland, and he basically told the flyover states that McCain ain’t to be trusted.
Mark that day on your calendar as the day McCain lost the whole smash.
Gemina13
Damn you, John.
My friend Gary came over and we killed a bottle of Canton watching the debates. I’m now on my fourth glass of water, and I’m going to be up all night pissing my kidneys into oblivion thanks to your little drinking game.
ninerdave
Oooohhh, I just (well two years ago) moved to Oakland. I’ve heard good things about the Parkway.
FLILF Hunter
I just read that. Hilarious. McCain’s a low-ranking monkey.
Heh. McMonkey.
binzinerator
Which is how I came up with the bracelet thing as the next focus of this kind of bs. They need something for this tendency, so they’ll invent it if they have to.
Delia
It was showing the vid of McCain getting his make-up done for the Katie Couric interview when he was supposedly flying back to DC that was the killer. That wiped out all the celebrity attack ads on Barack and then turned around snd swallowed McCranky up.
FLILF Hunter
Where I saw Animal House for the first time.
Knowledge is good.
Brian J
Read what I said above about the couple I encountered tonight, who claimed it depended on what you read about McCain fucking up the bailout negotiations.
patroclus
I was wrong earlier – the classic youtube moment was McCain clearly saying “horseshit” twice when Obama mentioned McCain’s nonsensical Spain gaffe of earlier this week. This should really go viral! The FCC is supposed to fine people for that…
Comrade Ivan Fookinov (fmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
The monkey bit is fucking funny! The psychotherapist makes an interesting argument that makes sense to me. I think that analysis is probably spot on. The ‘Bull’ is trying to avoid the ‘Matador’ because the bull knows that the matador almost always wins.
I hope Obama brings a bigger red cape to the economic debate. With ammo like Phil (and Wendy Gramm), lobbyists on his campaign, deregulation and the mess we are now in, Obama should be able to make a huge red cape that should easily get McCain’s attention. I could tell that Obama was getting to him with things like the Spain bit, the singing of Bomb Iran and the like.
More! More! Ole! :D
patroclus
Okay, I’ve listened to it several times now and I guess it’s possible that he really said “of course” rather than “horseshit.” It certainly sounds like “horseshit” but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and retract what I said. It isn’t clear.
Dang!
JGabriel
Just went over to look at the commentary at The Corner. (I guess I was feeling a little masochistic?)
Wow.
It’s like visiting an alternative universe. A really mean, evil, and ugly universe. Which, in comparison to this one, is saying a lot.
My favorite post had to be this one:
Yeah. Because you’re a fucking dick.
These guys really are incapable of feeling embarrassment.
.
Comrade Kolkhoznik Jon H
“TPM has a psychotherapist and a, um, monkey behavior researcher writing in to explain McCranky’s refusal to make eye contact with Obama.”
Monkey behavior?
Was McCain staring at someone’s ass?
‘Cause that’s what monkeys look at whenever possible.
Comrade PeterJ
I’m pretty sure Palin wasn’t around.
KRK
I’ve already seen some on a supposedly neutral site who could hardly contain themselves when Obama stumbled over the name on the bracelet. Their conclusion – totally unfit.
Regarding earmarks, it was a little unnerving how intensely McCain kept going after the point and warning about how corrupting earmarks are like they’re some kind of demon that take over otherwise decent Republican politicians. The truth is that, for all their problems, earmarks at least get money back to the states for public projects that spread some tax dollars around with jobs and/or purchases. McCain prefers the more direct kind of political corruption: regulatory and financial favors for big money contributors from anywhere. No need to funnel any of it back to the constituents at home.
Anyone out there able to reassure me that some veterans’ groups will slam McCain for his totally disgusting and creepily paternal (not to mention counterfactual) line of “I love veterans, and they know that I’ll take care of them”?
Comrade Kolkhoznik Jon H
By the way, I can confirm the low-status monkey thing.
I’ve been in the monkey room at work a couple of times and they definitely don’t like being looked at straight on. They consider it a challenge by an aggressor monkey seeking to exert dominance. You need to kind of look at them from the side so they don’t get mad.
Common Sense
Ya think? Madam Malkin does not disappoint.
Joe Max
It’s a blast. Any Juicers here who might want to hang out that night at the Parkway, leave a comment on my blog site above, or use the e-mail link there.
Or look for the guys wearing black leather.
Joshua Norton
The main thing I came away with is that McCain is still a prisoner of war.
Comrade Snark Based Reality
Wow. I’ve watched two of Biden’s appearances tonight and both times he fucking nailed it. He really is a bull dog and is perfect in his role.
I’m really looking forward to the VP debate.
tBone
She even works in a reference to the idiotic throwing the roses “controversy” at Ground Zero, and brings up HW looking at his watch in the ’92 debate.
For normal and semi-normal people, the takeaway from tonight will be McCranky’s sneering and refusal to look Obama in the eye. But hey, have fun with your little bracelet circle jerk, wingnuts.
You are terrible at trolling. Give it up before you embarass yourself any further.
Anastasius
It’s all Obi Wan’s fault! He never listens! He just doesn’t understaaand me! It’s not fair!
Oops, wrong movie.
Tattoosydney
Hmmm. It definitely sounds like “horseshit!”
The moment is at 2.45 on this you tube…
Dave
Personally, I was amused by the complete FAIL of McCain’s “I don’t even have a seal yet” swipe at Obama. You could tell from the look on his face that he thought it was going to be a clever laugh line. Sadly, everyone just ignored it.
Hey Camp McCain: just because the wingnuts online got worked up over it over the course of 2 days doesn’t mean it’s a touchstone for the rest of the civilized world. Nobody knew what the fuck you were talking about.
zuzu's petals
I’m so glad I get to watch Rachel Maddow.
Still…by most accounts Gore won the 2000 debates and Kerry won the 2004 debates.
In the end, maybe the only thing that matters to some voters is that the white guy has experience.
jenniebee
Is it just me, or is John “no Miss Congeniality” McCain now running on the platform that he can finally end partisan bickering and unite Washington DC in its dislike of John “no Miss Congeniality” McCain?
Oracle
Sherrell H. Says:
Hey John, I may need that $60 surplus for a new keyboard…
ninerdave
I see McCain is now against torturing.
Good on him…for now…
zuzu's petals
I’m really glad he brought that up.
It’s a no-win for McCain. Either he has to agree that he dissed a NATO ally or admit he got confused about where Spain is.
zuzu's petals
I’m really glad he brought that up.
It’s a no-win for McCain. Either he has to agree that he dissed a NATO ally or admit he got confused about where Spain is.
Darkrose
Oh man…if it wasn’t a 3 hour round trip from Sacramento on a work night, I would so be there.
ninerdave
Oh yeah, the most insane thing tonite. The above quote.
Are you fucking daft? Think of all the scotch you could have bought with other peoples money? This is the the hallmark of being a democrat…spending other people’s money.
You really have a long way to go Cole.
Welfare, learn it, love it, live it. Get yourself a Caddy dude.
FLILF Hunter
The Ninester kids you not. You’ve earned yourself something with an unpronounceable name that’s at least old enough to legally drink itself.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
I think you both nail it – that Letterman show bit will go down as the Dukakis-in-a-tank moment of this election.
Reason: I’m married to a very apolitical person, and from what I can tell via her reports, that bit on Letterman is what the apolitical voters are talking about. It may be one of the few things they remember in detail about the election by the time November rolls around and after all the rest of it has gone into the blender and been pureed into mush.
“Hey John, can I give you a ride to the airport !?”
the airport to nowhere, as it turns out.
ninerdave
I could have named myself rubberbabybuggybumpers. Then again thanks to Cole’s drinking game I have to look at the screen with one eye shut.
Oh and from my days in radio the hardest tongue twister is:
Black Bug’s Black Blood.
Comrade Kolkhoznik Jon H
“Hmmm. It definitely sounds like “horseshit!””
On another listen, he might be saying “of course not” with the ‘of’ inaudible. It sounds a bit more like ‘kor’ than ‘hor’.
Comrade Kolkhoznik Jon H
Regarding ‘horseshitgate’, someone posted about it at Daily Kos, and Olberman his own bad self commented that to his ear it was ‘course not, course not’.
FLILF Hunter
For some reason, that made me imagine you in a diaper. Fuckin’ A. I need some sleep. Then I need to wake up and start into some heavy drinking.
Curse you ND.
FLILF Hunter
When I first saw these references on, like a gazillion diaries on the GOS, it reminded me of the pure silliness of the Hillitary and their “fingergate” paranoia during the primaries.
ninerdave
You just leave me out of your little fantasies. Maybe Larry Craig can help ya.
yes, yes you do!
[email protected] Futzinfarb
John, John, John,
This is NOT how we get too big to fail!
oh really
Well, I still haven’t watched the whole debate, but I have seen a couple of clips. The effect is very different from just listening. McCain looks like a crazy, angry old man.
If the early polling is right, I’m ecstatic.
Stunty McPOW will be a disaster as president.
Of course, if I really hated this country, like all the Wingers say, then I’d desperately want McCain to win and immediately die, leaving the country in the hands of Palin.
Instead, I want Obama to win. If McCain wants to die at that point, it’s up to him, I won’t much care. I am sick to death of the Republicans.
If Obama wins, I’m going to be incredibly happy for him in November, but come January 20, I’ll feel nothing but pity for him. The Right Wing Machine will be funneling a fortune into wrecking his presidency and all Obama will have to do is to try to keep the mess Bush will leave behind from destroying this country. I wish him luck, but it’ll be amazing if he can pull it off.
Eric Fail
I wonder if Palin will be wearing a wire for her debate with Biden? Didn’t Bush pull the same trick last time around?
Wouldn’t it be great if someone barged in on her frequency and made her say all sorts of stupid stuff. Oh, wait….
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
This is all great news for McCain!
Dennis - SGMM
Posted this on the thread below. So I’ll repost here:
Anyone else catch this recent gem from Bill Clinton:
If Clinton isn’t going to help then someone needs to tell him to just STFU.
Tom
I think Obama’s best point was countering McCain’s assertion that he voted against funding the troops: he punched a hole in a BS Republican accusation that dates back to at least Kerry’s “I voted for it before I voted against it.”
Kerry obviously failed in doing a good job of explaining why the charge was BS. Obama nailed it this time.
Tingumbob Esq.
We are facing a great depression in this nation again. Neither of these candidates have a clue. And yet all the political blogs and television commentators mindlessly carry on about debating style. Barack Obama and John McCain had absolutely nothing to say about what to do to get the nation out of this disaster. Who lost the debate? America.
Brian J
Giving this sort of throwaway compliment to a member of a rival party isn’t going to damage Obama.
zzyzx
At the time I thought that the debate was a tie or a slight victory to McCain, which was fine with me. Now that the clip of the debate seems to be the Obama “You were wrong” and body language issues are happening, I’m now thinking that it’s a narrow Obama win.
If McCain really goes with the “I agree with John” “attack” that’s quite easily defused by saying, “I believe in trying to find bipartisan solutions. I want to agree where we can and air our differences rationally where we cannot.”
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
Via a link up above, I bounced over to Malkin’s little casa de comity. They’re still working the Obama = socialist/communist angle, which is rich given the events of the past week, where their beloved prez tried to socialize Wall Street.
Self awareness: they don’t haz it.
libarbarian
Because saying that her husband is tough and she is hot is a ringing endorsement of her ticket?
I think he was more damning with faint praise than endorsing them.
Zifnab25
I agree. McCain appealed to his base. Obama appealed to his base. I don’t think anyone really walked in as indecisive and walked away swooning for one candidate or another.
That said, I think Obama was able to – once again – step in and dispel a lot of conservative myths about him raising taxes or “surrendering” in Iraq. Meanwhile, McCain kept harping on the old conservative cut taxes / deregulate / fight wars / cut taxes refrain. We live in a conservative country where that sort of thing would normally play well. If this were another election, I think he’d have come across fine. I just don’t know how well that old hat is wearing on swing voters this year.
Redhand
How true.
Comrade NonyNony
Every joke that McCain told bombed. His delivery sucked for starters, and the audience was very controlled. Did you catch the “joke” he threw in about the genetic testing for bears? Terrible – no laughs there at all. It could have been kind of a funny line, but he couldn’t sell it. W could have made people laugh at that line.
I was surprised how non-reactive the audience was for both of them too. The only time I heard any reaction to the audience was when Obama brought up Spain. Someone lost it and I don’t blame them because the Spain stuff is some of the dumbest stuff I think I’ve ever seen in an election. In a just world THAT would be his “Dukakis in a tank” moment because people would just say “WTF? Spain?” and refuse to treat him seriously after that.
Comrade RoonieRoo
The audience was told very specifically that they could not react. To the level that they were told “no sound” at all. Which made it a bit interesting.
Rick Taylor
He’s had a bunch of those moments, the first one I was aware of being when he said Iraq was improving because he could walk around in a Baghdad market, and Petraeus went around in an unarmored humvee.
I had thought (albeit not with complete confidence) McCain would be the strongest of the Republican nominees; how wrong I was.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Last night I posted about the YouTube ad of all those Obama “I agree/John is right” clips the GOP had put out immediately after the debate. At the time, I thought this was an unforced error and that Obama shouldn’t do that next time.
But I’ve thought about it, and came back here to say that this is something the Obama campaign should exploit to the hilt. Hell, this may have even been a deliberate tactic.
If he’s asked about it, he shouldn’t just try to defuse it, he should celebrate it. Maybe he should make a response ad, where he shows a bit of the GOP montage over his shoulder while saying, “McCain and his campaign thought this was a mistake. They rushed this out on YouTube as soon as they could. I’m not afraid to disagree with people when I think they’re wrong. I’m also not afraid to agree with people when I think they’re right.”
And in the next debate, right before he says “I agree” again — and he should — he should make some sardonic comment beforehand, explaining that this is the part of the debate that McCain’s campaign will still think is some kind of mistake, and advising them to get their editing machines ready. And then as the debate continues, he should throw in more “I agree” and “You’re right” statements without drawing attention to it again.
McCain is trying to capitalize on his opponent’s strength and trying to cast it as a weakness. Obama should kick his ass. Ju-jitsu, baby.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Video of the Luntz focus group for Fox. Some very, very interesting comments from the undecided. Obama was knowledgable, cared about people like them, was competent, didn’t stutter. McCain was sentimental, spent too much time on his history rather than what’s happening right now, and stuttered.
At the end, the group wanted to see more intensity and passion from McCain, and wanted more specifics (still??!) from Obama. I wonder if there were any “McCain is a dickhead” comments that got left on the editing room floor.
The Other Steve
Nobody at home laughed either. It was really that bad.
zzyzx
“Last night I posted about the YouTube ad of all those Obama “I agree/John is right” clips the GOP had put out immediately after the debate. At the time, I thought this was an unforced error and that Obama shouldn’t do that next time.”
Well I knew that there would be something that the right would pick up on as the big “gaffe” of the night. How good of a night it was for Obama would be defined by how much of a stretch the gaffe was. Judging by that criteria, Obama far exceeded expectations.
Comrade Darkness
I think I’m going to need a great deal more beer for the VP debate.
As a metric of the times, our household of strictly beer and wine has become a household of scotch, vodka, amaro, and negroni (delicious drink by the way, equal parts: campari, gin, and sweet vermouth, or you can have a broken one (negroni sbagliato) by using sparkling wine instead of gin, but why anyone would bother while a debate is on tv is beyond me)
tavella
I really liked the format; I liked that they got a chance to call each other directly on distortions and lies, and that they couldn’t play to the audience to get cheap laughs.
henry
John McCain’s lack of temper control was on clear display. As Andrew Sullivan notes, McCain says “Horsesh*t” twice clearly when Obama handed him his ass about his Spanish confusion.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/09/horseshit.html
Comrade Darkness
Huh? This is brilliant. The 28%ers will see this as some kind clenis contamination of them. His approval stains them. They rabidly hate everything bill and hillary stand for, and by standing up for the palins, it actually brings them down.
nicethugbert
QFT!
Comrade Nixon Hailfire Palin
Nothing is easier than ridiculing research projects whose importance you don’t understand. That’s not to say that there aren’t research boondoggles, but it takes expert understanding to sort them out, whether we like it or not. If we can veto research with ignorant mockery, we may as well just close up shop and get used to being a third-rate nation.
Chris Johnson
I’m calling it- McCain WILL NOT look Obama in the eye during the next debate, either.
Why? I’ll tell you.
McCain is intensely, insanely superstitious. If this were confined to his carrying around handfuls of lucky pennies and stuff, it wouldn’t be so noticeable.
But now he’s got the idea that if he meets Obama’s eye, that’s the big jinx- that loses everything. It’s like the Evil Eye.
And since he didn’t look Obama in the eye the whole debate, he has to look him in the eye EVEN LESS in the upcoming debate or be jinxed.
Oh my God, would this guy be easy to fuck with if you’re the leader of an opposing country. It’s scary. All you’d have to do is make a weird and meaningless hand gesture, refuse to explain it and look smug, and he’d be totally helpless and panicky.
I’m calling it: it’s McCain’s superstition rearing up to overwhelm everything else. You tell me if he EVER looks Obama in the eye from this point on- or if he’s avoiding the eyes of anybody else.
“The eyes have it”.