The bailout bill has failed in the house, and the market is down -500.
I bet the House Republicans are PISSED. They wanted this bill to pass, but on the backs of the Democrats so they could run their populist bullshit about protecting the taxpayers.
*** Update ***
Speak of the devils. The House Republicans are now staging a group whine, blaming the fact that none of the voted on the bill on the fact that Pelosi made a partisan speech. Wankers. Eric Cantor looks like he is confused about whether to smile or cry.
*** Update #2 ***
Barney Frank just nailed the GOP nonsense about being offended.
*** Update #3 ***
Regardless your position on the bailout, you have to be amused by the notion that there were a bunch of Republicans who would have voted for it, but then were offended and said to hell with it. After Frank’s performance here, I think the GOP will stop peddling that nonsense.
On the other hand, the McCain campaign is blaming this on Obama. Heh.
cleek
my 401k? you can have it!
retirement’s for pussies
toujoursdan
Oh crap! I need to talk to my dad. He went through the last depression.
Jon H
Spend the trillion dollars subsidizing no-minimum FDIC insured savings accounts with 8% interest rates.
That’d get the banks plenty of money to work with.
comrade amoЯphous
Ben Affleck’s going to save us, right? RIGHT?
Jon H
I mean, subsidize the interest, not fill the accounts with taxpayer cash.
cleek
and don’t forget: 100% of today’s drop is the fault of the GOP.
Comrade Josh Vondoktorpepper
Sweet…I hope Wall Street fucking chokes on it. It’s time for a little class warfare in this country.
Comrade Incertus
So which way do the dealmakers run for those votes–toward bankruptcy judges or away from them? I’d rather the former, but I have no faith it will happen.
bobbob
This bill was DOA when President Bush spoke this morning from the White House (while everyone was on their way to work!).
Svensker
Nope, no Armageddon yet. The bill’s not done, just going back for a wash and a brush up. Armageddon will come if Congress decides finally to recess with nothing passed.
cd6
Kent Brockman: Professor, without knowing precisely what the danger is, would you say it’s time for our viewers to crack each other’s heads open and feast on the goo inside?
Professor: Yes I would, Kent.
cleek
if only McCain hadn’t un-faux-suspended his campaign with so much work left to do!
ThymeZone
Yep, I know when I’m among Democrats when I see those scalpels coming out …. nose, spite, face, etc.
But anyway, a deal will get done. The GOP is still working on a way to blame the mess on Democrats and take credit for whatever solution they end up with. Once they have that figured out, we’ll get passage of some kind of package this week.
And really, spoof goes better when it isn’t written by something called Vondoktorpepper. Just saying.
TenguPhule
Suck on it, Wallstreet.
No shit sandwich today.
Just Some Fuckhead
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..
dslak
This may be a good political message, so shout it from the rooftops if you like, but it’s not the truth. Many of the Dems revolted, and kudos to them for it.
MH
Bender: No fair, my cheating unit malfunctioned! You gotta give me a do-over!
Craps dealing robot: Sorry, the house limit is three do-overs.
Billy K(hrushchev)
I’m with TenuPhule. Still, these shit sandwiches aren’t going to eat themselves. I just want some high-powered Wall Street Daddies to dine with.
Rommie
Well, I guess we won’t be Comrades after all. Victims? Statistics? Suckers?
timb
Nancy said she needed 90 to 100 Republicans…I thought she just needed that many for political cover. I had no idea she meant she needed that many to pass it. WOW
The Other Steve
The Democrats were against this bill almost as much as the Republicans, and frankly that’s because the conventional wisdom is the people are against it and nobody wanted to face reelection having voted for this shit.
The market tanking 700 today will see public sentiment sway and suddenly demand Congress do something.
And they’ll pass it tomorrow.
Works well for me, I hope. I placed a order to buy shares in a financial firm mutual fund that should go in at day’s end when it’s been repriced for the market drop. I figure I’ll do some dollar cost averaging over the next several months to buy in at the bottom and ride this back up to the top.
That or we’re all fucked anyhow.
Ryan S.
Hmm catsup sandwiches here we come. I need to find a good recipe for squirel.
I’m just happy I’m young. People hoping to retire soon must feel sick.
Also, I win the office pool. I was the only one who said it wouldn’t pass.
cleek
the expectation was that the bill would pass. and apparently enough of the GOP changed its mind that it will now fail. the markets are reacting to their decision.
-705, at one point.
ideological purity does nothing for the trillions Americans have put into their 401ks.
Billy K(hrushchev)
The good news is, AAPL is hovering just above $100. If it dips below, I’m finally gonna get some Apple stock.
“He’s an artist, a pioneer.
We’ve got to have some music on the new frontier.”
Punchy
Dey gunna try and pass this cancer again this afternoon. Guessing it’ll be even harder to pass the second time around.
Hell, I learned sumpin today. Learnt you can try to pass a bill multiple times. Seems kinda 3rd grade-ish.
ThymeZone
Nice guy. 401k’s owned by people far and wide who really have no idea what exactly is happening, are losing value by the ton as we speak. And people are cheering. Because, you know, popcorn and everything. Retirement systems, watching value go down the toilet.
Nice. Really, feelin the love. Hey, fuck em if they can’t take a joke, right? I mean, HAHAHAHAHA.
Guys working at Sears who are looking at an empty store this morning, wondering if they are going to have a Christmas. Not at the store, at their house. HA HA HA. Fuck them! It’s all good!
ksmiami
Actually, now the pressure will be on to pass something tomorrow or wednesday and the Dems if they are smart will talk about how they wanted to add more Mainstreet protections, but the Reps didn’t care. Yeah that’s the ticket. While your 401K was tanking, all the reps cared about was reelection
Comrade Jake
Forget the Dow. The S&P 500 is absolutely tanking.
Stuck in the Fun House
I think it was like 90 or so dems voted nay with the rest repub. Just can’t help it, I’m happy it failed. I’d rather see Wallstreet go up in flames and then rise like a pheonix bird into something that’s sane, and it will. Bailing out these lizards will only cause them to go all out on the greed next time. Where does it stop? Take that 700 bil and insure all 401k’s and other retirement money’s.
When you invest in stocks willingly, you should know it can be an all or nothing gamble. There should be no guarantees with gambling. There are other safer ways to invest your money that don’t pay off as much in the short term. Sorry, this is a bad situation for many good people who trusted the system and it makes me sad to see them screwed, but that’s why it’s a free market and you takes your chances. Cold but true.
PaulW
My immediate response is “Choke on it, Wall Street”
My second response is “NOOOOOO my 457 portfolios”
My third response is “Okay guys, come back with a bailout package that will actually work: more oversight, tighter CEO payouts, and with a large neon sign that flashes ‘This is all on the GOP Vote Democrat this November’ hanging on the side of JP Morgan’s HQ”
cleek
i had some at $42, a few years back. i sold it at $68, figuring that was all it was gonna do.
i kick myself for that, every now and then.
TenguPhule
A $700 billion shit sandwich won’t do anything either.
You just wind up poorer with the taste of shit in your mouth.
The big boys have to fail, they’re just shells of shit at this point.
Trying to keep the corpses alive only delays the inevitable, it doesn’t bring them back to life.
Comrade Josh Vondoktorpepper
Sorry, no spoof. Just straight up rage. I grew up and came of age in the midwest during the 70s and 80s when the family farm was killed by Wall Street greedheads who were telling farmers to take out loans they couldn’t afford because crop prices and land values will keep going up, up, up so how can you lose? Much like what happened in the past few years with home loans. It’s time for some justice.
And really, smack from someone named after a plant? That’s weak sauce.
Fwiffo
This is clearly good news for John McCain.
TheFountainHead
Not to totally miss the point, but isn’t saying down -500 a double negative, so to speak?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
I think JFK put it best: “Ich bin ein Berliner”.
Only this time in a early 1920s “Walther Rathenau call your office” sense of the word.
FreikorpsBlackwater come back, the Homeland needs you!dslak
I’m not cheering that nothing gets done, but it’s not right for Congress to be blackmailed into supporting something that is not clearly in the long-term interests of American taxpayers. Some people may have to suffer now to prevent more suffering down the road.
jrg
I had a discussion over the weekend with a Republican who was claiming that the Dems will block this bill because they “want the economy to tank”. I asked him (forcefully) which Dem said that – he said “well, that’s what they are thinking, they are too smart to say it”.
I wonder what he thinks today.
This whole situation disgusts me, but I would like to still have a house and a job next year. It pains me to admit it, but we need to put our best interest, as Americans, ahead of the class warfare that the Republicans have been pushing. If we don’t get a grip on this economy, there will be no bankers left to tar and feather.
Comrade Jake
I don’t know why people think this is about bailing out Wall Street. You folks have your anger seriously misplaced.
Jon H
“The good news is, AAPL is hovering just above $100. If it dips below, I’m finally gonna get some Apple stock.”
Frontline is down too, and that pays awesome dividends like clockwork. (Last quarter, $3/share)
Cain
I hear ya, TZ.. my dad is plenty concerned about his 401K. Luckily for him, as a prof he can work till he doesn’t want to anymore.
cain
Tom65
Fuck it, let it burn.
Just Some Fuckhead
Republican Jeb Hensarling of Texas, a leading conservative, said the bill puts the country “on the slippery slope to socialism. If you lose your ability to fail, soon you will lose your ability to succeed.”
We’re doomed with idiots like this making important decisions. Doomed, I tells ya.
ThymeZone
Rage is constructive, just ask Al. Al Qaeda, I mean. HAH! They your rage right here! Fukkin Americans! We haz your world trade center! HAHAHA! Yeah, big fan of rage. I want more and more of it in my government. The Rage Party! Get your Revenge On!
Whew. Need a cold washcloth. Hold on.
It’s an Herb.
An Herb, for crissakes. “A plant” could be just some noxious weed that is poisonous to kittens. An Herb is right up there with things like digitalis and orchids.
Alan
The Republicans are blaming Pelosi. Whaaa, her speech was too partisan. HOL
Jon H
The only stock I have that’s up is the one that trades at $0.0055.
(Newspaper publisher. Bought it at $.50).
Billy K(hrushchev)
So we should just always give in to Wall Street’s demands and continue to allow them to destroy our economic infrastructure because people have 401Ks? They shouldn’t be allowed to hold our Government hostage.
And in the end, everyone here knows some shit bill is gonna get passed and the guy with the 401K is gonna get screwed one way or another…or BOTH, it’s looking like.
Comrade The Moar You Know
I didn’t need my 401k anyway. Seriously. Fuck it. It was a LOT of money but if the process of losing it takes down the whole fucking Ponzi scheme than maybe it was all worth it. I can build guitars and furniture until I drop dead.
Good for everyone who voted against this abomination.
cd6
“Our feelings were hurt so we voted no”
Comrade Delia
My congresscritter is Pete DeFazio, a populist dem, who is one of those who voted against the bill. I emailed him the first day asking him not to vote for Paulson’s version and a few days ago he sent me back a long email. Virtually the same thing appeared today in our local paper. It’s a good explanation of what’s wrong with the bill and what he thinks should be done instead.
Comrade Jake
Yup, if you can’t fix the problem, fix the blame. GOP tactics 101.
dslak
Because that’s what everybody has said it’s about?
I don’t know how else reasonable people should react to the fact that they and their grandchildren will have to pay for the errors in judgment of a select few, while those few walk away without any loss.
Of course, I’d be willing to forego punishment if we had a bill with genuine oversight of such a serious amount of spending. As it is, this bill is still making the Fed a fourth branch of government, and that is simply unacceptable.
Billy K(hrushchev)
Damn. I still recall sitting in my office in ’97 or so looking at the paper and wondering if I should buy some at $9/share.
sigh…
MH
So did Congress just throw Bailout-gate under the bus? What a slap in the face! At least it’s good news for Rudy Giulliani.
jake
Poor TZ, he had a beautiful treatise on our crappy CongressCritters and they went didn’t vote the way he was expecting. Instead he had to fall back on default finger wagging.
“If you don’t want to pay the uninsured drunk who drove into your living room you hate America!”
Call your CongressCritter folks and tell them to vote Nay.
Punchy
Fixed.
PC
Does anyone else want one of the financial channels to set up a real time Line Rider on the DOW chart?
Svensker
My son just called from Toronto where the exchange was shut down in the face of a 780 point drop. He says every Canadian he knows absolutely HATES Americans right now.
sstarr
The actual Great Depression started with a market crash, but there was a rebound. After the rebound there was a remorseless and long lasting collapse. In 1929 and 1930 the government took the attitude that the American public seems to have right now: why should we bail out these businesses and private individuals who made poor choices? So the government didn’t intervene, and the economy crumbled.
Sometimes it’s important to think with your head, rather than your gut. Sometimes the correct action to take isn’t what “feels right.”
Still, I HATE the idea of bailing out the smug wall street crowd. I probably won’t even get a thank you card.
Comrade Jake
Uhm, no, it’s not. I realize there are lots of people who believe this was designed to be a bail out for Wall Street, but fundamentally, it’s about restoring the credit market.
Larry
Anyone know where to look up who voted for this thing and who didn’t?
Juan del Llano
GOOD! Let the sucker fail. It made me feel dirty just to think of it. Now we have a chance to spend that money on America, not the bankers.
I may be naive, but that’s the way it feels.
ThymeZone
Yep and Tactics 102 is, hell, fix blame even if you can fix the problem. Fix blame even if there is no blame. Fix blame even if the blamee was nowhere near the thing when it happened. Nobody is really paying that much attention.
That’s why we know now that the trouble started when we started selling houses to dark people who couldn’t afford them. First they sneak into our country, then we start loaning them all our money, and ka-blooey. We are fucked in the ass.
New message for the GOP: Drill Here Drill Now American Oil for Americans Only Energy Independence and Buck Fifty Gas …… and, American Credit for Americans Only … No More Mortgages for Macaca!
Billy K(hrushchev)
…and for everyone WAAHHHH-ing about 401Ks free-falling, welcome to the club. My retirement is mostly tied up in retailer stock, which has been tanking for the last year and a half, because – whether the GOP wants to admit it or not – we’ve been in a recession, and people can’t afford to buy stuff.
Juan del Llano
Just read Moar@48: RIGHT ON, dude!!! Guitars and furniture are WORTH something. You won’t starve.
Jesus, this shit has to stop somewhere. Why not here and now?
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@ Comrade Delia: DeFazio said:
So: shut down the casino aspect of the stock market, eh? I like it. Wish we had more like him in Congress.
Comrade Josh Vondoktorpepper
Only if it’s Robert Plant, that might be cool…
Rage, righteous anger, whatever you want to call it…We’ve been getting shit on forever by these pricks with their con games, and will continue to be whether this bills passes or not. It’s the same old story: “We need to keep wages and benefits down so that your job doesn’t get outsourced,” “We have to cut taxes for the Randian Ubermenschen and slice public services or else they’ll take your jobs elsewhere,” “Well, if you want to survive you need to invest in a stock market propped up by fraud,” and so on it goes forever and ever. If the whole thing needs to crash so that something sane and decent will take its place, then so be it.
dslak
Jake, I realize that your original question was somewhat rhetorical, but this was how the people pushing the bill were describing it from the beginning. If they wanted this passed, it’s their own damned fault for being such bad salesman, in that regard.
I don’t disagree with you there, but it’s still a bad idea to put so much power in the hands of one person. Yes, we can’t punish the people who fucked up if we want to fix this thing. Fair enough. But why does that mean we have to further merge the government and the marketplace? In the long-term, is that really a good idea?
Billy K(hrushchev)
All I’m asking for is tighter safeguards and some accountability. I’d support a bill that has those things. But from what I’ve read (and getting straight dope on this is difficult), this bill has no teeth. It looks like teeth, but they’re those plastic vampire teeth.
Regulation is not a four-letter word.
Comrade Doctor Mister General Michael Brown
Is there an editor in the house?
As for the topic: We don’t need no bailout, let the futhamucka burn.
ThymeZone
Jesus man, you sound like Sarah Palin? Please rearrange the words in your post and parse again, I can’t make any sense of them.
Calling you a damned food is “default finger wagging?” Okay, but only if you are not actually a damned fool.
Flushing of equity in the market hurts a lot of people, and there is no reason why it has to happen. Congress perfected vote counting many, many decades ago. They can caucus and take their counts and vote only when there is something that can pass, there is no reason for this flailing you see now. This is all political theater and it is costing a lot of little people a lot of big money.
But go ahead, talk your stupid shit and giggle it up, it’s what you do.
Kali's Little Sister
Who knows? Maybe it’s not too late.
Comrade Scrutinizer
No, fuck you, you clueless asshole.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
New faster Balloon Juice = no work getting done!
And….. blockquotes is still wonky.
Dennis - SGMM
Here is the roll call on the vote.
Short version:
Dems
Ayes: 140
Noes: 95
Reps
Ayes: 65
Noes: 133
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Tweety is railing against McCain’s utter lack of leadership. Me likey.
Anyone have a copy of this horrible speech Nancy supposedly gave? (Also, how stupid is it to say “I was going to vote for this, but then that big meanie Pelosi told me I caused the problem”?)
georgia pig
Pelosi must have known the votes weren’t there, she called Boehner’s bluff. Now go back to Hank and tell him to do the Swedish nationalization plan.
Stuck in the Fun House
Just saw that, primo wingnuttery it was. The Republican President they have followed like Lemmings the past eight years, calls for a bailout of other greedy republicans telling us the sky will fall if it’s not done. For a week, wingnuts work with dems to get a bill with what wingnuts wanted (insurance for payback) and other provisions. Let’s everybody know from yesterday, that many (enough), are going to support the bill, then vote no at the last minute because Pelosi hurt their feelings in a speech. Wankers doesn’t even begin to cover these sorry fuckers. I figured they’d pull some shit like this, and politically it’s a good thing it went down, which is likely why so many dems voted against it.
And I’m going on record to say the sky won’t fall. Hard times, but most American companies are flush with cash from the boom and wingnut welfare, and will survive this.
Ecks
John McCain didn’t have a 401k for 5 years (sorry, just a reflex at this point).
But historically few that pay off as well in the long term. For most of our history stock markets have been the highest consistent payoff, allowing for wobbles along the way. Wobbles are different when they make the wheels come off, though.
Anyway, now time for the dems to show what a real dem plan would look like, and ram THAT through congress. Dare bush to veto THIS. He just couldn’t.
Scrutinizer
Yes. You are naive.
SamFromUtah
All I’m asking for is tighter safeguards and some accountability. I’d support a bill that has those things.
Agreed, though it’d be a nice cherry on top to include some language about “Supply-side economics officially = fail” and your “Regulation is not a four-letter word” line made nice and explicit.
ThymeZone
Um, sure, but the thing is … it doesn’t. That will only happen if these potatoheads keep fucking up a simple process of negotiating and vote counting. Especially the vote counting.
Why you suppose that more bad effects are somehow useful in a bad situation is beyond me. If you were sick, you’d be rooting to get sicker so that the doctors would eventually have to work harder to get you well?
Okay, WIN! There’s a model out there for you. It’s called Christian Science.
Billy K(hrushchev)
Yeah. I forgot how much time I used to spend bitching commenting here.
Punchy
This failed, IMO, because they (Dems and the WH) fundementally and wantonly refused to specifically explain where this money is going. I’d be alright with a decent-sized bailout IF I knew how it was going to work, how long it may take, who’s gunna be in charge and when, etc.
But no. They crafted this shit sandwhich in the dark of a weekend, with little to no explanation of the problem or how this solution works.
Even the smarty money gurus and calculatedrisk.com had no fucking clue what the bill contained and how it worked. If THEY cant figgy this shit out, then Average Joe American had no chance.
my $0.02
deadzone
This is definitely no fun. My hope is that something will be done for us instead of for them but I know it’s just a dream with no basis in reality at all.
Most likely scenario is more in-fighting and grandstanding and then *POOF*, like magic, the original plan by the Administration is passed and the Taxpayers are out a cool 700 billion plus. The only thing the Taxpayers will get is more Congressional Finger Point Theater (free admission at least!) and a 2300 dollar and rising per-person tax burden which is no benefit to us at all.
Comrade Jake
Well, I don’t think there were too many practical options here, not if expediency is really needed. That’s the rub. I agree that this wasn’t sold properly, but that doesn’t make me feel any better about what just happened.
We’ll soon find out if expediency was really needed. I hope I’m completely wrong, and we don’t see the credit markets completely lock up.
ThymeZone
BJ IS BACK!!
Now we are getting somewhere.
Scrutinizer
That, I totally agree with.
Time for me to back away from the keyboard and lower my blood pressure.
Marshall
I doubt that. Public sentiment doesn’t sway that fast. If public sentiment is going to rule, this won’t pass until after the election, if then.
And, thinking about it, that might not be that bad a thing.
TenguPhule
Awaken from the dream of ‘personal responsibility’ Reagan and his bullshitters sold the public to the reality that
personal contribution retirement doesn’t work when the markets are run by corrupt assholes.
Throwing money won’t help.
Comrade Josh Vondoktorpepper
No, I’d fire first doctor who kept giving me the same bum-quack medicine (tax cuts! deregulate! privatize! Greed is Good!) and replace him with one who could give me the right treatment so I don’t get sick again.
Comrade Snark Based Reality
Only down 500 points? Pussys.
Hi. You must be new to the real world. In an emergency room you get a higher priority if you are more severely sick. With a doctor you get more attention and tests if you have an obvious symptom. If that bit of electronics is dying you’ll get more help from the vendor who sold it to you if it dies completely compared to “well it works most of the time”.
I for one am tired of watching the sausage making churn out prion laden sawdust. As was stated before, these shit sandwiches are not going to each themselves, fuckers.
dslak
Serious question, to put things into perspective: Did people lose more in the market today than they lose every day we’re in Iraq?
Martin
AAPL is still strong. This is a massive overreaction because the downgrades (to market perform, no less) came when the market was prone to shitting their pants anyway. I’d buy below $120 if you can stand to go long. If you’ve got the balls for it, Jan 09 options will probably be a steal tomorrow.
I’m still sitting on 1200 shares that I bought at a split-adjusted $3.25. I’m trying not to think about how much of a fall that amounts to in dollar terms, but there’s nothing about Apple that is weak right now. And with no debt and $20B in cash, they don’t need to borrow, so the credit crunch doesn’t impact their ability to do business. And I don’t really see people not buying iPods for Christmas. I expect I’ll buy in tomorrow morning.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
As far as I see and hear, TSX hasn’t been shut down, although it’s down about 843 as of the last time the Globe & Mail updated.
But yeah, I’m feeling a wee bit peeved about all this. I can understand not wanting to reward those pricks in any way, but the U.S. is the world’s 800 pound gorilla. There’s a lot of collateral damage going on inside and outside of your borders right now.
(Oy. Pelosi had to diss Bush and the Republicans right before the vote? I’m hearing exact quotes on the radio. She’s right, but she was really fucking stupid on her part because she should have known what fuckwits she was dealing with. The time for showboating was after the vote.)
Comrade Josh Vondoktorpepper
You’ve obviously never tried MobileMe
dslak
Anybody got a link to a recording or transcript of the Pelosi speech that set the Republicans whining?
w vincentz
I’ll put this into historical context for those that haven’t realized what this is about…
Once upon a time, some Dutch people were sponsored by the Dutch East India trading company to settle in a new location. They sailed across the Atlantic despite the constant whining from below decks, “Are we almost there yet?”.
So, on arriving at the southern end of an island that they named new Amsterdam, they built shelters, cleared land, traded with the native peoples, and relased their previously domesticated livestock to forage for themselves. The livestock mentioned were pigs (hogs).
The settlers then planted their gardens and anticipated a good harvest.
Alas, the feral swine returned and destroyed their gardens by eating the crops and uprooting the future food of the settlers.
So the Dutch folks got together and decided to build a wall to keep the pigs out. They then replanted.
The place where they built the wall is still remembered by the name of the street where the wall once existed. Its name is Wall Street.
Oh…seems the PIGS are sill around.
This is a true story.
I won’t recount the story of how Staten Island came to be named, other than to say that when Greta asked Hans what that place was across the harbor was called, his reply was “Where, Greta?”
She pointed to a place and asked, “Is staten an island?”
It has been ever since as well.
Mr Furious
The bailout doesn’t even get through the House. I’m no economist, but then, none of the douchebags voting on this are either. My initial reaction is the same as Friday, “Good.”
Again, the more I read about this “compromise plan” the worse it looked—even if Krugman and others thought it was worth passing. I don’t see any reason why taking some time to make sure what passes is RIGHT instead of just QUICK is a problem.
Based on Paulson’s original proposal, this whole thing reeked of the White House demanding the whole damn solar system when all they really want is the planet. Negotiations ensue and when the dust clears, the Dems stand around patting each other on the back for getting the GOP to “settle” for the Earth and the Moon.
Billy K(hrushchev)
Definitely. I believe it’ll reach $200 next year (assuming no financial armageddon). That’s why I’d like it to dip to about $100 for a few days, so I can “stock up.”
Oh, and for everyone who has ever complained about the $20B Apple has been sitting on, this is why. They don’t trust the market, which artificially jacks with their share price, and they want to have a nest egg in case they ever experience another mid-90s-style meltdown.
Mr Furious
Italics anyone?
Stuck in the Fun House
Why do you suppose that throwing 700 bil to a bunch of idiots will make them not idiots anymore. Like I said, where does it stop? They are like addicts in convulsions for a fix. If they get one now, they will only return for the next one, until we’re all broke and scratching our heads how we let that happen. I’m saying that maybe the ONLY cure is to not give them more of the Hair of the Dog That Bit Them. Money Money and Mo Money. Like I said cover the involuntary funds at risk IE 401k’s.
TheFountainHead
So in all seriousness, what happens now, does Boner whip up the votes or does he wait for the Senate Dems to bring him a better sandwich and hope they don’t call his bluff?
DannyNoonan
There’s no disputing the sheer stupidity of what we’re seeing today. The Bushies dumped a $700 billion plan on congress without doing the necessary leg work to explain to the American people the severity of this problem. You have to provide political coverage for members of congress to vote for this. Because in two moths, if the economy is still relatively near today’s status quo, everyone in the House up for reelection will get killed on this bailout. Challengers to House seats will say this was unnecessary and there will be nothing convincing for a member of congress to say in response. You can’t prove an unprovable. This clusterfuck is what happens in a time of crisis when you have an executive branch that is untrustworthy and detached. All hell breaks loose.
Martin
The problem they’ll have with the bill is that the stuff the Dems want will drive off Republicans and v/v. I’m not sure they’ll be able to get this passed such that it could function in any meaningful way.
Just Some Fuckhead
Kinda fascinating to consider that Bush can get a bailout bill with 100% Democratic support – no Republicans needed – but he has to compromise and let it be more stringent, more “leftist”. So the first attempt failed because of House Republicans. Will the next attempt fail because of the Boy King?
Billy K(hrushchev)
LOL.
TenguPhule
If you were sick, why do you insist on bleeding yourself?
Scrutinizer
Serious answer: financially, yes. People don’t have their investments in Iraq; they have them in money markets, mutual funds, and stocks. As I write this, S&P is down 6%, the Dow is down 7.5%, and the NASDAQ is down 7.6%. In 6 hours.
The Bag of Health and Politics
“You broke it, you own it.” John McCain, with his pathetic antics, broke the stock market. This needs to be like the Canadian election of 1992–where conservatives when from a majority to holding a whopping TWO seats. Every Republican in the House should be DEFEATED in November. So should John McCain, who put politics before the country’s economy…
Mr Furious
Taking a bit more time to weigh options might give me a chance to find out what the hell might be wrong with DeFazio’s plan, because it sounds far preferable to this bailout to me.
For all we know (TZ included) we are being choked on a false choice between shit sandwiches, when we might get by with a quick shotglass of piss.
Billy K(hrushchev)
Mmmm…piss.
ThymeZone
Yes, but you wouldn’t be considering that while you were lying in the ER and the alarms were going off, you’d be looking to stabilize your vital signs.
You are talking long term lifestyle modification, and we are needing a tourniquet and an airway.
To quote the great man John McCain, my opponent doesn’t understand the difference between strategy and tactics. :)
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Actually, I really hope the Republicans keep harping on this “we wanted to vote for it, but Nancy was a meanie” line. That’s just about the worst possible thing they could say politically. If they said they voted against it out of principle, that would be one thing, but there’s no way they can win an election on a “Nancy is mean” platform.
Mr Furious
So, how can McCain use this to postpone Palin’s debate?
Krista
I also would like to see a bill that a) provides for quite a bit more regulation and b) puts a cap on executive salaries and golden parachutes. Mind you, I’d like to see those two aforementioned items applied to any and all corporations. Our local power utility is trying to raise rates, when the VP of Energy Services made over $400K just in bonuses last year.
Comrade The Moar You Know
Goddamn right, Juan. I’m looking at taking a high-five/low-six figure hit when the shit hits the fan. Let it hit. I no longer care. We have bigger problems.
This whole fiscal system we have now is an absolute total scam, and the people getting fucked are the wage earners. They always get fucked anyway, but if you don’t make enough money (and there are plenty of people with ZERO spare cash) to join the “ownership society” then what you make by the sweat of your brow gets devalued by every dollar somebody makes by letting their money, instead of their backs and hands, do the work.
Now we want to take money from everyone, including those who will never be invited and will never get to participate in the “ownership society”, just to keep the system afloat? Shit, we’re just lucky there aren’t enough poor in this country to kill everyone who has benefitted from this farce of a system. God knows they have every reason to.
Lie baby, lie!
If the financial institutions are TOO BIG TO FAIL, then why are the remaining banks getting even bigger with each new bank failure and buyout? Doesn’t make sense, unless those socialist companies plan to eventually go to Uncle Government Moneybags for more taxpayer cash.
Time to cut those companies down to size. What a fuckwad system.
Comrade Napoleon
Well my insta-take on this is that it is going to blow up in the Republican’s faces in a real big way. I think it will play that they are acting like a bunch of out of control babies.
Comrade Jake
Unfortunately, at this point my concern is that we are going to need to see fairly dramatic things happen with the credit market for a bill to be passed. As in, people not being able to use their ATM or credit cards.
I’d like to tell you that I have a lot of confidence that such a scenario would provide for a markedly better bill passing. I don’t.
Of course the other possibility is that the credit markets recover on their own, or simply decline much less rapidly. I’ve no idea how likely that is. It seems like the least plausible right now.
Martin
Fair point. Conceptually, great idea. Pretty shitty execution so far.
jake
It shouldn’t be happening but since nothing short of time travel and murder would stop “it” from happening I’m not sure what you’re frothing about. 700 billion won’t stop “it” either but I guess we have to do something, no matter how pointless, wrong headed and ultimately destructive because people are hurting.
And when it turns out that 700 billion isn’t enough to appease domestic and foreign institutions, we can re-convene and you can tell us that we’re assholes for balking at another 700 billion bailout bill.
Call your Congressperson, tell them to vote Nay on this trainwreck.
Kali's Little Sister
Proper context of international financial disaster duly noted.
Mr Furious
And why should I believe those numbers won’t reverse themselves the minute they get a deal they like? Seriously? Am I supposed to trust that pit full of vipers any more than the fucking thieves in the Administration?
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Pelosi’s speech from earlier today from YouTube.
Part 1 and Part 2
ThymeZone
Um, the Metaphor Committee just met … can you come up and bring your keyboard?
Svensker
It’s really interesting what happens in a society when you have a leadership vacuum, isn’t it?
flavortext
I can has nationalization now please?
cleek
if you don’t want your money, send it over to me, PayPal is fine.
Tom65
Mom?
Martin
Yeah, that’s true.
Paulson is a shitty politician. He opened this with a $700B blank check and once people grabbed that narrative, there’s no getting off of it. Nobody is even listening any more because the bill will always be a $700B blank check to them. I wonder if the Dems have the balls to pass a nationalization bill without Republican support? Seems to be too big a thing to go alone, though. I think at this point Paulson would go with any plan that would work, regardless of how it changes the political landscape.
The Other Steve
Punchy, I think you are right. I don’t think the leadership did a good job at explaining the need.
It’s interesting. My rep, Jim Ramstad voted against it, and he’s retiring. Yet, John Kline voted for it and he’s facing reelection.
ThymeZone
You could try reading my posts. I suggest better legislative work. Count the votes, don’t hold a vote until you are ready to pass something. Don’t announce victory until you have the votes, preferably until after you HOLD the actual vote. Then, the market doesn’t go nuts.
See how simple? How elegant? And you could have devined it all just by reading my previous posts.
Oh I’m sorry, are you too busy frothing?
Barney Frank: “Somebody hurt my feelings, and so now I am going to hurt the country.”
Frank is a prickish man, but when he’s right, he’s right.
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Barney Frank: “Give me those twelve Republican’s names, and I will go talk uncharacteristically nicely to them.”
Genious.
dslak
Point taken, Scrutinizer, but in some regard, isn’t debt debt? While the slide on Wall Street may affect individual investors, there is still the collective debt incurred by the government for which we are all, as citizens, nominally responsible. Simply in real terms, are the losses today equivalent to the amount spent daily in Iraq?
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
I love that I can’t spell genius.
Scrutinizer
Maybe you ought to go back and read just what the fuck it was I was responding to before you interject yourself into the middle of the fucking conversation.
Kali's Little Sister
Frank: Give the the names of the twelve, I’ll go speak uncharacteristically nicely to them.
Can I possibly love Barney Frank more than this?
Comrade Pooh
Was watching. I believe the kids call that “pwned”.
TheFountainHead
Works great for me, but I guess I’m not the rule.
Punchy
This is EXACTLY what I was thinking….how will McCane use this to keep Palin from getting crushed?
Martin
Because right now, consolidation is the only think keeping the taxpayers from pouring limitless money into the FDIC. We can break them up next year, but right now, they’re holding the ship together.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
You can’t love him more than I do right now.
Comrade Napoleon
Tweddy is blaming McCain!
KT
Happy to say my Congress critter voted “no” today (Paul Hodes N.H.) There has to be a better way to spend $700 billion.
ThymeZone
Tell them not to vote until they have counted votes and are pretty confident of passage.
Stay away from the cameras, and get back to work and shut up.
w vincentz
Rham just called the Goopers “Anti-American”.
I agree. Line those traitors up against a wall and mow ’em down with a machine gun.
Why does the GOP hate “Merka”?
Poor, poor Johnnie Mc Crap, his OWN party isn’t supporting him on this.
I’ll wait for Sarah to come riding to the rescue, bareback on a moose.
Zifnab
More likely the Republicans will start flipping faster than flapjacks in a cheap diner. They’ll cave and use smears against the opposition to cover themselves. Once Bush and his cronies put the screws to Boehner and Blunt, they’ll pass the shit down the line until everyone but Ron Paul are singing “Four Legs Good, Two Legs Better”.
The next bill that gets shoved through should be ready by Friday and it’ll pass in the dead of night to “bipartisan” support.
cleek
this is what the retards were mad about ?
oh fer chrissake, how pathetic. it’s like they were just looking for an excuse, and this was all they could find.
Comrade The Moar You Know
It sure is. Wait a week. Congress will keep grandstanding, investors will still be thinking that Congress is a relevant institution, not understanding how much the game has changed – the feces will be hitting the air circulator for certain.
Billy K(hrushchev)
It IS better than .Mac. But then, so is a $700B Shit Sandwich.
jake
Man, what the hell did you put in your Efferdent? Unless someone changed the rules when I wasn’t looking, Congress isn’t a bill passing machine. “Don’t hold a vote until you’re ready to pass something!” yaps TZ, because the idea that it just won’t pass is unthinkable.
Time for your nap.
Martin
I feel the same way. I’m already in the low 6s I think – there’s really no point looking to find out for sure. I guess the kids can go to community college.
But the whole point of why we’ve been putting money away is to give our kids a better future. That can’t end with a healthy college fund, it need to extend to their ability to get good jobs, buy a home, and so on, and at some point this house of cards is going to fall, and I don’t want it to fall on them. The bigger problems need to get solved.
rob!
Barney Frank just ripped the Republicans a new one, in what i think will be *the* sound clip of this whole debacle.
Comrade Face
Someone’s having a really bad day, I’d surmise.
wingnuts to iraq
meh… who cares if stocks tank! I don’t.
Comrade Delia
Here’s the vote tally.
Comrade The Moar You Know
I would agree. What we saw today was awful “leadership”, put kindly. But I suspect that any bailout is not going to be passed. Call it bad salesmanship or self-immolating stupidity or whatever you like, but the American people seem pretty solidly against it.
Comrade Dreggas
Pelosi’s oh so mean speech
Mr Furious
Kleiman:
Why the fuck not? That’s what I’m talking about, TZ. Not that option in particular, but there wasn’t just the choice we were presented with. If these asshats could sit down and actually work out a real solution there are other options that could be considered. And Wall Street might actually keep it’s diaper on if it knew there was a chance of something actually successful resulting in a careful process.
Instead the whole fucking thing is going off like a Borg made of John McCains was controlling everything. It’s all panic and bluster.
NonyNony
I’m not going to make any blanket predictions about what will happen next, but I feel comfortable making this one:
If the Dow drops below 10,000 today or tomorrow, every Congress critter who voted no on this is going to regret it. A lot.
They thought that the bailout was bad politics. Wait to see what kind of a feeding frenzy the markets turn into if the Dow drops below 10K. A huge psychological barrier will be crossed and it will be ugly.
And if this has turned from “it might be a crisis if we don’t act” into “OMG WTF IS HAPPENING MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOP”, I wouldn’t bet a plugged nickel on the political futures of the 12 guys who decided not to vote for this because mean old Nancy Pelosi said something that hurt their widdle feelings.
jake
Feckin’ blockquotes.
Comrade The Moar You Know
With no roll call, undoubtedly.
The new mantra for democracy in the 21st century – Accountability Is For Losers.
Billy K(hrushchev)
Pelosi has been a trainwreck. I hope we’re not saddled with her – or Hoyer – next year.
Kali's Little Sister
Fuck me, Chuck Todd just took McCain out back and pummeled him to a pulp.
Brian J
Why oh why couldn’t Barack Obama agree to do those town hall forums?
On a serious note, if this really wasn’t necessary for the country to avert a meltdown (as opposed to merely helping), then perhaps this was a good turn of events. The Republicans were clearly getting ready to run against this bailout, and if the talking heads on television are right about the level of public support against it, the Democrats might have been cut off at the knees over it.
Stevenovitch
So uh, what if they took that $700 billion dollars and used it to subsidize mortgages in risk of defaulting? I’m a complete moron, but it seems to my simple mind that this eases tension on the housing market, the small business sector, and uh might even turn some of those bad assets on wall street into good ones? People get to keep their houses and wall street doesn’t go completely down the shitter.
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Dow finishing strong, at -715 right now.
Chris Johnson
My reaction is in the area of ‘good!’ too.
I don’t believe this money is real. If we’re talking about propping up a debt economy many times the gross national product of the entire planet, how could that be real or bail-out-able? I don’t know exactly how things got to this state but everyone directly involved in it is holding imaginary money. it IS imaginary money. Stop being mad at me for not being able to make it be real money just because you want it to be.
Billy K(hrushchev)
What we need is some kind of governmental banking entity with money to loan that can provide oversight and help to even out the peaks and valleys inherent in the system. Hmmm…if only…
Comrade Napoleon
Tell us more!
Comrade Grumpy Code Monkey
If credit well and truly seizes up, evaporating 401(k)’s will be the least of our worries.
I understand that something needs to be done; it’s just that we need to make sure it’s the right something. I’m not convinced this bill was that right something.
Dennis - SGMM
After seeing Congress aid the administration in hastily doing stupid things because “otherwise, the world will come to an end,” people were naturally skeptical. When the face on the bailout became the face of Wall Street, the rage set in. Paulson may be capable at finance but when he presented a three page “plan” that had no consequences what so ever for the people who got us into this mess he killed the bill in advance.
Comrade The Moar You Know
Agreed, Martin. Every day we prop this ridiculous system up the price of a total collapse gets that much higher. We can end up looking like Mexico, or end up looking like Somalia. I know which alternative I’d prefer.
Comrade Face
F’in blockquotes suck.
flounder
They just played the Pelosi clip on CNN. She said it was Bush’s fault they didn’t regulate markets and burned through a surplus.
Pretty weak tea.
Now the House GOP are defending Bush’s honor and his economic policies.
Please, please, please keep playing this highly offensive clip on TV. And please keep defending Bush House GOP.
J.D. Rhoades
According to their own leader, House Republicans whose support of this bill was necessary for its passage voted against it, not because it was bad for the country (which it very well may be) but because they got dey widdle feewings hurt over something Nancy Pelosi said about them.
Michael D.
Ugh…my 401k is starting to look like a 201k
Comrade Jake
It is not about the Dow folks. While that sucks for people who just retired (or are close), the drop there is a symptom.
This is about the T-bill rates and the TED spread.
Billy K(hrushchev)
Worse yet, Nasdaq and S&P have lost 8%.
AAPL still above $100. Barely. Come on guys!!! Don’t you know all the kewl kids want Zunes!!
Stuck in the Fun House
That would be much better than passing a wingnut plan with democratic votes. Which is what would have happened if enough dems had said yes. Would have been a perfect play by repukes. Do the bait and switch at voting time and all (most) vote no, get the bill passed by dems and an a loathed president just before the election. Just enough to keep the Titanic afloat a few weeks. The little crocodiles would be making, “bailout demorat” adds faster than you could say dem suckers. For once dems did the right thing when it counted.
Scott H
The press is moving in on the red meat. CNN’s Rick Sanchez is everything but openly mocking the Republicans.
McCain is blaming Obama in some classic wtf? spin.
Comrade Josh Vondoktorpepper
Rapist: Sorry I just tore a hole in your colon and gave you HIV, but I know a great doctor with a degree from Regent University who can make it better, promise.
That my friends isn’t change we can believe in.
Nikolita
CNN shows the DOW bouncing between -680 and -725.
w vincentz
Wow! I’m going to cash in on this.
See…..there are lots of apple trees where I live.
I’ll gather enough to fill my pickup and drive down the thruway to lower Manhattan. I’ll wholesale the apples to the “capitalists” for them to retail on the street corners around town.
Heck, I’m thinkin’ of picking up a few gross of pencils too.
I’m gonna make a fortune!
gopher2b
Any retiree or near-retiree who has their retirement money in the stock market deserves to lose it all for being so stupid.
Ecks
So let me get this straight. The kids at South Washington High refused to vote for the referendum to Save The Whole School Collapsing, because Nancy said something mean about George right before they were going in to push their buttons?
jake
HwhAT? Use the money to directly benefit the proles instead of giving it to the rich so they can drink lots of bubbly and start the trickle down effect?
You’re going to make Popeye Paulson feel faint.
Kali's Little Sister
Todd said McCain “made a big stink” about coming back to “fix” this problem when he didn’t have to. He spent the morning talking about his accomplishment. He is on the hook for this thing, big time. Obama has come out with a statement of encouragement towards resolution. McCain has gone to ground.
The verbatim was unusually strong and harsh from Todd; sorry I suck at capturing the words.
KT
I can’t read his mind, but I don’t think Hodes voted “no” it for political reasons. I think he just didn’t like the deal.
As to the DOW, I know this is selfish, but I could care less. I don’t own any stocks (unloaded mine after the 9/11 crash) and never looked back. All my money is in a savings account.
mantis
Interesting to look at the graph a bit wider, where we see that the DJI has today dropped to late 2005 levels. How much of the rise in 2006-07 was a result of the housing bubble, and how much of today’s fall could be reasonable perceived as an accurate correction in the market? Admittedly, I don’t know shit about this stuff. Anyone?
Comrade Josh Vondoktorpepper
Lady Godiva/Was a freedom rider…
/shoot me now
Kali's Little Sister
Worst part for the GOP from a PR standpoint? Barney Frank had the zippiest soundbites, FTW.
Billy K(hrushchev)
I wouldn’t be so self-assured about that statement if I were you.
Stuck in the Fun House
I would argue that what we saw today was an attempted political mugging by the republicans. You have Bohner and Putnam praise the bill and telling the world that most wingers would go along and vote yes, and I would bet he told Pelosi the same thing. Then we had what we had. I don’t blame Pelosi for this. I don’t think she would have brought it to the floor without being informed by wingnuts they’d vote for it. This is GOP ratfuck from top to bottom
r€nato
so, the tender feelings of House Republicans are more important than the economy.
Grand Moff Texan
Here’s the speech.
Show me the part Boner is whining about. Can anyone find it?
.
Comrade Josh Vondoktorpepper
We just got punked by a queer…sniff…hold me David
As soon as I get this diaper on Larry…
mantis
Show me the part Boner is whining about. Can anyone find it?
This part:
Rep. Pelosi’s Remarks…
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
From the WaPo via TPM:
Campaign Fail 2008.
Poetic, yet stunningly apt turn of phrase.
His shit-stained Depends?
See above.
Oh, I give up. It’s too easy.
r€nato
well Grand Moff Texan, you know and I know and we all know that it’s just a pathetic excuse from the House GOP, they wanted the Dems to pass this bill so that they could have a ghost of a chance of getting re-elected.
But, you know, they keep saying it’s because Pelosi hurt their widdle feelings, so we’ll just keep mocking them until they fall into line and do the right thing for America (for once).
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Here’s your earworm, Comrade Josh.
Comrade eyepaddle (formerly Fe E)
Here is the Barney Frank video, if nobody has beaten me to it.
youtube.com/watch?v=vs0qkOgMabg
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
Exactly. At some point, much of this imaginary money will necessarily be destroyed. $700B is just kicking the can down the road. I’m not into pain and deprivation, but if that’s what it takes to destroy the shadow banking system, then let’s start now, get it done, and rebuild a system that makes sense.
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
Barney Frank for the win.
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
I hate you.
Comrade The Moar You Know
Asset allocation is important, especially when things are getting as unpredictable as they are.
It’s also important to keep in mind that far more innocents than guilty will be hurt in the fallout of all this. I think the pain is necessary but I’m not taking any joy in a bunch of old folks losing their life savings.
Dennis - SGMM
I think that things would go better if everyone in Congress worked on some small, non-controversial bills and let tempers cool.
Something like this:
If they truly listen to the voters this one will pass unanimously.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
You love Barney. I love Barney. But you hate me. That hurts.
Now this I hate. You are all fucking well warned if you click on it.
LiberalTarian
Oh wow. I go away for a day and the whole place changes … and the bailout doesn’t bail.
Confused am I.
But, at least I cleaned out my 401(k) earlier this year. Yeah, I lost 20% in taxes, but I didn’t lose 50% in capital … there wasn’t that much in there anyway, I used it to pay off debt.
Zoiks. I better get to planting my winter garden. Things look to get freaky.
Scrutinizer
The best part was watching Rahm trying to to break out laughing.
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Poison for the Maude earworm. Very needed.
ThymeZone
You miserable, stupid fuck. People with money in structured retirement accounts cannot take the money out without paying fees, penalties and taxes. Millions have retirement plans bolted to retirement systems over which THEY HAVE NO CONTROL WHATEVER.
And it’s not just a stock market that is losing value, there is the credit market that is basically going to be frozen in place. Cars can’t be sold, homes can’t be sold, and so forth.
What you see happening now is going to hurt ordinary people, and possibly, very badly. Get a fucking clue. Wake up.
Comrade Josh Vondoktorpepper
Exactly…I don’t want it to be like Road Warrior, but we seriously need to get back to basics (i.e. living in our means, paying sound money for real American goods and services instead of hocking ourselves to buy cheap, poisonous shit made in Chinese sweatshops).
Scrutinizer
oops.
“trying not to”
liberal
georgia pig wrote,
Exactly. Many well-respected economists argue that a plan along those lines
(a) is probably much more effective (meaning, bang for buck)
(b) protects the taxpayer much better
Scrutinizer
What he said.
Martin
We could dump it all into the FDIC and then we’d have nothing to show for it. That’s what we’re looking at now, btw. It’s likely only a matter of time before BofA and Citi go under too. They’re buying because they can get these banks for next to nothing, and if they are going to fail, failing bigger doesn’t hurt any more. If Congress steps in and prevents the failure, they just made the best acquisition of the decade. The Fed is helping these deals go through because WaMu alone would have overdrawn FDIC to the tune of $150B. That would have been taxpayer dollars to bail them out.
Because there’s only about $300B in mortgages in risk of defaulting, and these guys can (could, not sure about after today) manage that with only a bit of help. The problem is that when things fall like this, the mark-to-market rules force banks to have to write down the value of *good* mortgages because nobody wants to buy even good mortgages, which is 90% of what they hold, which is much of what is dragging them down. Their assets are in a deflationary spin while their debt isn’t, so with each passing weak they are increasingly leveraged, which they can’t afford to be, so they need to dump assets. Bring a buyer in there with, oh, $700B to play with and that cycle would probably end. It wouldn’t fix the underlying problems, but it’d get everything to stop for a while so that those problems could actually get addressed.
Scrutinizer
Good luck getting that passed if this wouldn’t.
ThymeZone
Forget it, you are too stupid. YOu just don’t get this. What the fuck are you arguing? That a 600 plus point drop in the stock market and the freezing up of credit in this country are GOOD THINGS?
Fuck you man, fuck you very much. Im not talking about a bill passing machine you lying cocksucker.
Im talking about sending the lawmakers into their chambers and getting to work and staying away from the cameras and microphones and whipsawing the country and the economy with their theatrics.
Get the fuck away from me, if you can’t understand English.
liberal
ThymeZone wrote,
I’ve got a better plan: congressional democrats write something up more along the Swedish model.
After all, Congress gets to write law, not Treasury.
Brian J
Wow. Barney Frank just kneecapped those SOBs. What a thing of beauty.
Dork
So a wall of Arabs protects McCain at all times? Had NO idea….
Martin
Here in SoCal, most homes are expensive enough that people need a jumbo mortgage to buy one. Wells Fargo’s rates for a 30 year jumbo with no points is 9%. Nobody can sell a house now if the buyer is facing 9%. That just added 40% to the expected monthly payment.
Think of all the areas in the country where median home prices are over $450K and those housing markets are effectively dead right now.
Non-secured individual and small business loans at my credit union start at 11.8% today.
Ned Raggett
Kudlow’s anguish is interesting:
Ned Raggett
Whoops, weird block quote there — the block quote covers that second full paragraph too.
liberal
Scrutinizer wrote,
Oh, I think it’d be easy to pass if the Dems played their cards right. They could rightfully point to the support of economists, and most importantly point out that it’s not a handout. That would really get people behind it.
Sure, the whackjob freemarket nutsoes in the House Rethuglican caucus wouldn’t like it, but so what?
It’s the perogative of the House majority to write legislation on its own. Why can’t they do that?
Scrutinizer
But but but—-we can’t bail out the evil Wall Street villians and line their pockets with $700B cause that would be—wrong. Better for everything to crash and burn and stupid old people starve than to bail out Evil Wall Street Overlords!
/snark
Scott H
The market is closed and the tally keeps plummeting.
-735 at this point.
DougJ
They really had better pass something soon. A frozen credit market is serious business. This Wall Street vs. Main Street stuff is total BS, too. Where do people think that loans come from?
jake
Perfect. They didn’t want to protect America from the BIGGE$T THREAT EVAR because Pelosi insulted The Worst President Evar. Please tell me we have these wanks defending the CEO-in-Chief on tape.
Also, oil dropped $10, possibly as the speculators run for the nearest crack in the wall.
ThymeZone
Well then you are in the wrong place, because there are people here who are doing exactly that.
And then getting in YOUR face if you suggest that massive financial losses might not be a good thing for Mr. and Mrs. America at the moment.
Fucking idiots.
The DOW is now at a record, biggest loss in one day. Anybody who thinks this is a good thing is a fucking oaf who is operating at a Sarah Palin level of understanding. No, at a level that would make Palin look like John Kenneth Galbraith.
dslak
Shit, Ned, those kind of changes just swing all the potential problems back the other way. I guess the idea is that, if we can’t punish Wall Street, we’ll punish the GOP? It seems to be rather petty use of the power of Congress, but I guess it beats Terri Shiavo.
Comrade Jake
In a surprise move, McCain blames Obama for the bill’s failure.
That guy has zero shame. You know what Obama said? That people should remain calm, that sometimes these things don’t go well, but that the country will figure it out.
Only one of these guys is an adult.
Kali's Little Sister
David Schuster: Bigger market drop than after 9/11
AB Stoddard: problem with John McCain, tired to take credit, no evidence he was involve, phoned it in over the weekend, and not blaming Obama.
dslak
The Loan Fairy, of course! Just like all those government services I get for less and less in taxes.
Punchy
I fucking LOVE Swedish models. Ususally blonde, blue eyes, great stems, cool accent. hubba hubba!
Scrutinizer
Score!
w vincentz
Blame Obama? Ha Ha….
From Yahoo news:
“John McCain’s presidential campaign claimed credit as Congress readied Monday to vote on an emergency economic package, but Democrats said the Republican’s last-ditch intervention had been no help.”
Claiming credit for the passage of the emergency economic package is equally absurd as claiming “winning a debate” before it occurs.
The House Goopers abandoned McCranky as much as they did their dear pResident. Own the failures, gooper a-holes! FAIL again and again.
Solution: Goopers love to start wars to remedy finacial crisis. Their strategy has previously worked. There just might be a “war”, but I don’t think it will be “over there”.
Wayne
Pelosi because of her speech and those who voted no because of her speech.
Children.
If the republicans who voted no are irresponsible, then Pelosi is too. Anyone at that level of leadership should know better. It’s time for her to move on.
ThymeZone
Jesus, even Cafferty can’t handle the pressure:
“Is this bad enough to vote out ALL THE INCUMBENTS in five weeks?”
Um, sure, if you want to vote in a REPUBLICAN CONGRESS. Yeah, that would be a good idea.
Oh wait, are we electing Libertarians? Green party?
Fuck me. With a sharp stick.
Dennis - SGMM
DOW off 738. I was five years away from retirement. My retirement is invested in a company plan that offers pre-selected (By the plan administrators) Fidelity investment funds. I could choose which of the plans my money would go to but not much else. If I withdraw my money before I reach the legal retirement age I lose approximately 40% of it to taxes, penalties and fees.
Stupid? Yep. I’ve worked hard and followed the best advice I could get about my retirement. These days, that’s stupid.
Martin
Well, they probably *could* get it passed, but there wouldn’t be any Republicans on board. Big shit should have everyone’s buy-in. But if the GOP digs in, it might be the only recourse.
liberal
Ned Raggett wrote,
Kali's Little Sister
system error: and McCain is now blaming Obama.
Good day for a quicker BJ, thanks John!
Jon H
“DOW off 738. I was five years away from retirement.”
Could be back up by the end of the week. Who knows?
The Other Steve
Before the vote was even counted, McCain was patting himself on the back.
ThymeZone
Gotta agree. Biggest single fuckup I have ever seen from a Speaker. Unless there is exculpatory evidence out there, I’d say, she needs to go. Colossal, colossal fuckup.
liberal
Dennis-SGMM wrote,
Main thing is allocation by asset class. If you’re that close to retirement, you need some stuff outside of equities. did they provide those choices?
Ned Raggett
I’m not agreeing with anything Kudlow posted, I should note — he’s more the object lesson here because he was Mr. Goldilocks Economy. So it’s good to hear these further perspectives.
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Even Schuster is eating Holtz-Eakin alive. Jesus.
Scrutinizer
Dow -777.68
NASDAQ -199.61
S&P -105.95
jibeaux
Meanwhile, the occasional conservative (non-politician) inhabits something approximating reality.
I can’t believe I’m linking to Douthat.
ThymeZone
But Dennis, you are here talking to people who apparently think that what is happening today is a good thing. Read this thread, it is as absurd as anything you have ever seen on a righty blog. Just fucking nuts.
Millions of people can be totally fucked by this. Fucked. And it never needed to happen. All they had to do was shut the fuck up and pass a bill. That’s it. Just shut up and work.
dslak
Dennis, that really sucks, and it’s a shame you’ve got to go through this. This of course is why FDR pushed through Social Security, which is obviously less padding than it used to be. I still worry that passing the bill in its current form, while it might alleviate the short-term pain of some, would only result in much worse pain for others further down the road.
Comrade The Moar You Know
You haven’t read the rest of my posts, which is fine, there is a lot going on. I DO think the inevitable massive losses will, in the long run, be a very good thing for this country. The system is broke, TZ. Sorry, but it is, and the sooner we let it break and deal with the aftermath the better off we’ll all be. Judgement Day is not a thing that can be put off.
I lost a shitload of money today and will lose a bunch more. So be it. I’ll survive, somehow. But I’m not happy about it and I would not go so far as to say that anyone “deserves” losing their retirement. No one deserves it – but that’s what is coming for a lot of people.
Scott H
-777.68
The leader of the Republican Party, Bush, can’t deliver his House members to support this package. The guy who wants his job, who is nominally in the job, McCain, can’t deliver the House members. He is trying to say he did, but the facts, the numbers, are inconvenient to his case. McCain also wants to blame Obama – Obama, who is in charge of nothing at this point. The House Republican leadership is claiming Pelosi hurt their feelings.
liberal
Jon H wrote,
Right.
Thing is, given the historical volatility of equities, any money you expect to need in less than 10–15 years time really shouldn’t be fully in equities. I think duke to the Greenspan put people are just too little aware of the risks.
J.D. Rhoades
Well, with McCain’s chiming in, this has apparently become the party line: Republicans didn’t vote because of what mean old Democrats said. Hey, if they’re going to throw us that pitch, we need to hit it out of the fucking park.
Scrutinizer
Details?
Jon H
“Main thing is allocation by asset class. If you’re that close to retirement, you need some stuff outside of equities. did they provide those choices?”
There are also retirement-date funds, which assume a given retirement year (2050, 2040, 2030) and will adjust holdings accordingly depending on how far away the date is. Fidelity almost certainly has them.
I don’t know if there are any 2010 or 2020 funds, but it might be worth looking (I suppose half 2010 and half 2020 would work for someone retiring in 2015.)
ThymeZone
Some guy on CNN, after ranting on and saying a lot of really dumb things, said this:
This is not about Wall Street. It’s about your street.
Interesting times. Even a fool can get something right.
Comrade Cris Ivanov
Off topic:
ol.commentlist li {
border:1px solid black;
list-style-position:inside;
margin:0pt 0pt 1em;
padding:1em;
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Comrade Jake
I’m pretty much with you in here today TZ, but we appear to be a minority.
Nonetheless, let me emphasize again: the drop in the Dow is only a symptom. Yes, it sucks, but it’s nothing compared to the gigantic sucking sound that could come rather soon.
Scrutinizer
Repubs didn’t have the votes, so they blame Pelosi. She didn’t say anything new today.
KRK
Could the folks here wanting to go all pox-on-both-their-houses and drum Pelosi for her partisanship maybe point out what was objectionable in what she said?
Is there any reason not to think that the Republican caucus was going to bail no matter what?
Kali's Little Sister
Wolf repeated McCain’s blame shifting artistry. Ed Henry rejected it flatly–“everybody knows” how the vote came down.
dslak
It sounds like the Dems are now going to try to placate their defectors rather than try to bring the faithless Republicans in. This will hopefully result in a bill with better oversight and protections for taxpayers. We might see a leadership change in the next Congress as well, given Pelosi’s and Hoyer’s cock-up today.
If those things sound good to you, then it might not be all bad news from today.
ThymeZone
Totally, completely and absolutely disagree. I wasn’t sure before but I am now, you are a complete fucking idiot. Note to self, never listen to anything you say again.
Seriously, you are as wrong as you could be.
Patient sick? Saw off his legs, that way we can focus on getting the rest of him well sooner. That is about as intelligent as what you are saying. No, actually, it’s more intelligent.
Jesus H. Christ on a Ritz cracker.
Annette
Test of refresh with 197 concurrent connections/123 active queries/64 open tables/current queries per sec avg 38.4
Stuck in the Fun House
No better than what? Not to bring a bill to the floor republicans said they would vote for and didn’t.
While offering the lamer than lame reason she hurt their feelings in a speech to cause them to change to a no vote on probably the most important piece of legislation in our lifetime. I’ve got gripes about Pelosi, especially about letting the FISA bill come up for a vote. But not on this one
Comrade Jake
The only good part about what happened today, IMO, is that McCain has been exposed as a complete fucking tool.
Comrade Delia
More WIN from McCain from Politico
It’s quite a day when you have to give a triple word score to Tweety.
jake
Once upon a time a country threw a shit ton of cash at its market in order to stave off a financial crisis. Result: A ten year recession.
And Japan actually produces things.
We, on the other hand, produce people who buy things from Japan.
TheFountainHead
I am so turned on right now.
ThymeZone
I agree on that, but there is another aspect, which is, the credit market is just toast while these theatrics go on. And this economy moves on credit the same way it moves on oil and moves on public confidence. Take away these legs under the stool and your ass is on the floor. Your ass, my ass, your neighbor’s ass. Not the tycoon’s ass, yours and mine.
Billy K(hrushchev)
QFT.
Comrade Jake
I’ll be the first to applaud if that happens, but it strikes me as very unlikely. The opposition to the bill on the Democratic side is from the Blue Dogs, the more conservative-leaning members.
liberal
Stuck in the Fun House wrote,
Agreed. The idea that Pelosi is supposed to deliver Republican votes, after all the shit those bastards have put this country through in the past 15 years, is ludicrous.
Comrade Delia
What’s wrong with the blockquote function? I know I set that up right.
Scrutinizer
Dslak, I’m afraid you have it backwards. Not passing it today results in plunging asset value for banks, which lead to further increases in debt-equity, which leads to asset sell-off, which leads to declining asset value, which leads to plunging stock prices, which leads to…
…a giant sucking sound, coming sooner than later. The bill wasn’t cobbled together to ease the short-term pain of some, it was put together to stop the deflationary spiral which will kill the credit markets, which will fuck us all well and truly. The longer we wait, the more expensive it gets, which will also fuck us well and truly.
cleek
DJIA closes -777.68
a bigger loss than the day after 9/11.
(of course it just timed-out when i tried to post this :) )
jibeaux
If the defeat of the bailout is some sort of ideological victory, it’s a Pyrrhic victory, IMHO.
dslak
A Balloon Juice page that loads: $800
A functioning economy: $700 billion+
Watching John McCain continue to make a dick out himself: Priceless.
Comrade Jake
Right – that would be the gigantic sucking sound I was referring to. We’re on the same page buddy.
Comrade Dreggas
Wait until the asian markets open tomorrow. Then the ride really starts. As of now the DOW is down 777, but the big one, I am hearing, is the tanking of the S&P where more people have money for their 401(k)’s.
Add to that this all happened on a Monday.
jake
Please note that no one has ever seen TZ and John McPOW in the same room.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
The fundamentals of McCain’s leadership are strong.
Kali's Little Sister
It seems you cannot have a line break within the block quote. That’s my experience, anyway.
Scrutinizer
You little minx, you!
Tsulagi
Looked at a clip of Pelosi’s floor speech that left them so deeply wounded. She didn’t diss Congressional Pubs, or even their party in general; she only tagged Bush for letting the mess get to this point.
But never underestimate the drive of the Bush pool boys to seize an opportunity to claim victimhood in front of cameras or in the press. Yeah, Country First for those soldiers. Unless they think they’ve taken a round from a pellet gun, then everything stops for them until everyone acknowledges they’re in pain and sheds tears for them. Priorities. These guys are pathetic.
Vote Republican! Take pussydom to unexplored new levels and realms!
liberal
Scrutinizer wrote,
Yes, but you ignore the claim by many respectable economists that the history of crises around the world shows that this kind of bailout is both less efficient and less equitable than the Swedish style one.
Kali's Little Sister
So, McCain had pissed off the press, and now Wall Street. This is going to be so good for McCain!
Scrutinizer
Tomorrow will be a wilder ride than today, unless the market takes a breather and waits to see what happens on Wednesday. The Asian/Euro markets, though, fun times. Fun times.
Shinobi
Silver lining in all this ridiculousness. I no longer feel guilty for not contributing to my 401k.
dslak
Scrutinizer, if you’re right, I hope this results in a better bill coming to the floor either later today or early tomorrow.
Jake:
I’ve been getting my impression from responses to the bill by freshman and more liberal members of the Democratic caucus, such as Gillibrand and Udall. I guess it comes down to which clique has more potential votes, and how badly the House leadership wants to try once more to tempt the GOP into a deal.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
So, TZ, please tell us how the system is not broken. Tell us how this $700B will fix anything. Feel free to show your work.
There are plenty of credible economists who don’t think this will work, that such a plan shouldn’t be drawn up under panic/blackmail conditions.
I don’t see much joy around here (OK; there are a couple of idiots); just concern that we’re putting a $700B band-aid on a gaping wound.
Martin
Ok, but so what? I mean, I’m down something like $40K just today, so I’m far from someone rooting for this. But it’s not that catastrophic a drop on its own and it was going up and down while the credit problem was ongoing – so clearly the two are not critically connected.
What is urgent about it is that we don’t know what tomorrow will bring. Another 700 points? 1500? And what will rates look like tomorrow as the already damaged credit market gets even more damaged by hits from the stock market. Who cares what the Dow does, really – it can come back easily enough if the credit situation gets fixed. But right now, it’s not clear thats gonna happen – and the costs of that are probably going to be a lot worse than dropping 6%. The cost of borrowing money went up 22% – just today. That’s the real problem.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Opposition to bailout plan falls dramatically.
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Schuster wouldn’t let Mr. “McCain invented the Blackberry” get away with anything. He interrupted him every ten seconds with “but doesn’t that mean that the Republicans were putting their feelings above the good of the country?” and “you say McCain showed low-key leadership, but where was the subtlety last thursday?” and “but Democrats voted overwhelmingly for the bill, isn’t it’s failure due to the Republican leadership?” He just ridiculed the notion that Pelosi’s speech had anything to do with anything and wouldn’t let Holtz-Eakin get away with saying that McCain showed leadership.
Schuster normally just lets people lie and fake-laughs about it (“haha heeha haa haha, you’re a professional”), so seeing him challenge Holtz-Eakin on his bullshit was a significant blow to my worldview.
Comrade Cris, prospective apple cart vendor
I love when Annette talks technical. I’m well on the way to retracting the mean things I’ve been saying about HostingMatters.
Scrutinizer
Not ignoring it; I’d much prefer that to today’s bill. I just don’t see a chance in hell of it passing, is all.
gbear
Did you read what she said? It was about as political as a glass of chocolate milk. Her most damning accusations were that 8 years of the current policies have caused this mess. Go back to comment 198 and read what Pelosi said.
Comrade Napoleon
. . . and remember, everyone will be getting their statements for this quarter, which just so happens to close about 24 hours from now, about 3 weeks before going to the polls.
Comrade Jake
DING DING DING DING DING!!!!
We have a winner.
TenguPhule
His tears of despair taste so very sweet.
PC
BREAKING NEWS: Washington D.C. Runs Out Of Smelling Salts After House Republicans Catch The Vapors
Jon H
Can I just say I’m tired of photos of Wall Street traders being presented as if they were Ground Zero body recovery workers who spent the day digging through The Pile.
Kali's Little Sister
TPM has Pelosi’s speech up.
talkingpointsmemo.com/
Billy K(hrushchev)
Tomorrow?
Tomorrow?
I just read the House is adjourned until Thursday. That’s CAN’T be right…
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
You said it. Watch the overnights. And ask yourself this question: Great Depression? — or GREATEST DEPRESSION EVER!
Comrade Jake
Folks so quick to blame the Dems for this need to check themselves a bit. Word on the street is that they promised 140 yes votes, and delivered precisely that many. The GOP fell short on how many they’d promised.
This isn’t going to shake out well for either side, but the GOP are the assholes du jour.
Jon H
22%? So what? It’s been plenty higher, and we lived. There’s no god-given right to cheap money.
Scrutinizer
Martin @ 299
The credit issue is by far the worst part of this, and it’s like very few people get it, What’s your source on those numbers? LIBOR?
BTW—When do automatic halts in trading kick in? Are they just volume related, or do they also kick in on losses?
DougJ
Maybe it’s time to put Air Force One on Ebay.
Stevenovitch
For my part, I’d like to point out that emotional appeals to how “fucked” I’ll be if this bailout doesn’t happen isn’t really effective when me and every one I know was fucked back when the housing bubble blew. In other words, the saving wall street to save main street line doesn’t really resonate with people who have already seen their main street go to the shitter. I’d suggest finding a different angle. For the record, loans haven’t been obtainable by anyone but the highest class around here for months, so once again, telling me I won’t be able to get loans without this bailout also isn’t effective.
Sure I guess things will get worse if the bailout doesn’t happen, but at least be honest and admit that the only reason you’re suddenly interested in saving main street now is because not doing so will completely fuck over your portfolio or whatever. That at least makes your disingenuous claim that the only way to solve this crisis is to give a shitload of my/our money to a handful of wealthy people at the top less confusing and stupid.
You’ll have a hard time finding someone who doesn’t want something to be done. If we think this bailout failing is a good thing it’s because we’re rightly dubious that this is actually a solution that will work for those of us way at the bottom who are already in the shitter.
liberal
Scrutinizer wrote,
Uh…would there really be anything wrong with rewriting the bill so that it contained strong provisions to protect taxpayers and better oversight? It’s not like it would take weeks to write. AFAICT the “compromises” achieved over the weekend were claimed to do exactly that, but then when people got a look at the draft legislation, it was clear that those provisions were highly watered down.
I agree that the danger of the credit market collapsing is a grave one, but to argue that this bill needs to pass now, rather than a better bill a few days from now, you’re arguing that the system is healthy enough that this bill can at least keep it limping along, yet stick enough that a few days more and the entire system will collapse. IMHO that’s strong set of constraints that is difficult to satisfy.
Kali's Little Sister
Tomorrow is Rosh Hashanah. Markets are closed.
Comrade Incertus
The Democratic opposition I heard giving speeches on the floor this morning was from the Kucinich wing of the party, not the Blue Dogs.
Scrutinizer
My, you’re not a very bright fellow, are you?
Comrade Napoleon
By the way, the Dow is now under where it was the last day Clinton was in office.
dslak
Considering how the current GOP treats all policy matters as political stunts, I’m sure their failure was intentional. The GOP only wants a bailout if they can blame it on the Democrats. If it passes with their votes, both parties have to carry its stink.
Politically, I can understand why the GOP doesn’t want any part of a tough decision close to an election – they’re already hurting at the polls. But that’s not the Dems’ fault, now, is it?
Mr Furious
Why the hell did this whole thing get trapped in the $700 billion bailout frame?
I want an actual analysis of what it will take to fix this and do the best job. Not the fastest way to make Hank Paulson’s plan most politically viable.
Why the fuck should that be the only option on the table?
These fucknuts jerked around for ten fucking days nibbling around at the edges of ONE FUCKING OPTION. Am I supposed to be thankful for the polish they applied to the turd, TZ?
Today was a fucking disaster to be sure, perhaps it will bring some fucking focus to the issue rather than political posturing. The public has a real sense of what’s at stake now, and Congress has reason to get its shit together.
If this results in an actual plan that does a better job fixing this fiasco, the markets will recover.
*NOTE: I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about, but neither do most of you or the jackasses voting in congress.
ThymeZone
Okay, okay, I understand now. This is a Republican blog!
Just heard some GOP motherfucker on CNN: The reason why the House ‘pubs are not lining up here is because this whole bailout is about taking money from your neighbors who bought their houses and can afford them, and giving that money to people who bought their houses and can’t afford them!
To emphasize the point, he was looking at Donna Brazile, well known Negro, when he said it, in case you DIDN’T GET THE POINT.
SOMEBODY SHOOT ME.
Comrade Jake
Look at the votes.
Martin
Yep. The majority of my retirement and the kids college money (they’re still in elementary school and I’m still in my 30s) is in S&P 500 index funds. I figured if the entire S&P 500 went to hell, we’d have bigger problems than what college my kid gets to go to.
Remember, the Dow is just 30 companies and only 3 or so are financials. The S&P is a better measure of which fans the shit is hitting.
Billy K(hrushchev)
That took longer than I thought it would.
Robert Sneddon
Separation of Powers — Representatives don’t like Senators telling them what they should and shouldn’t do (and vice versa). Nobody in the Senate really likes Senator McCain either, with a few exceptions (Senator Lieberman being one of them). It’s not really surprising the Congressional GOP has not followed Senator McCain’s “lead” in this crisis.
The Senate operates in a collegiate way, with a lot of cross-aisle cooperation under the radar, unlike the larger and more partisan House of Representatives. Mavericks don’t collaborate well; Senator Obama has made more friends and allies in the Senate in his 6 years there than Senator McCain has made in 26.
Remember this when you see people demanding that Senator Obama should force the Congressional Democrats into doing his bidding — he can’t, and he’s not stupid enough to even try. His efforts to help solve this problem are best spent in the Senate.
liberal
Scrutinizer wrote,
Fair enough. I’m thinking maybe it would pass if the Dems dropped the exec compensation stuff, but I don’t know what the vote count is of House reps/Senators for whom that’s too much “socialism”.
I’d claim the Dems could finesse it by appealing to the people, but then again their ability to play politics is pretty much zero.
Comrade Incertus
Indeed sir. Indeed.
Mr Furious
Here’s a nice twist to mull over. Public opinion on this was overwhelmingly against the bailout. Democracy actually worked.
The lesson is brutal, but now perhaps public opinion will change and cowards in Congress can vote on the merits of the issue rather than fear of constituents.
If we get a better plan out of it, it might be worth it. If not, we just burned a LOT of money for nothing.
Kali's Little Sister
Rosh Hashanah means Congress is adjourned. Sorry.
dslak
Sadly, No! has provided an easy listening suggestion for these troubled times.
ThymeZone
Yes, Furious, agreed, but my point was, we can get said shit together without creating said turmoil on the tubes, the nets, and the markets, while gathering said shit.
Instead, it can assemble the shit and remain silent and diligent while doing so and thereby CALM the markets and the bowels of the little people (like us) and just get the job done.
Ergo, shit is together, and we can blog about …. cats. Football. Beer labels. IMPORTANT THINGS.
ThymeZone
Win.
TenguPhule
Gangrene in the limbs? Don’t worry! We can just add more blood and everything will be okay!
Smart, Strong. Sure.
gbear
That was going to be my next question. Thanks, I think.
dslak
Oh, great. That means anybody who calls for an emergency session risks losing the Jewish vote. Who’ll be the first to stick their toe in that water?
jake
Thursday it is.
Rosh Hashanah begins in a couple of hours.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
“Duck season!”
“Wabbit season!”
“Duck season!”
“Wabbit season!”
“Wabbit season!”
“Duck season!”
“Wabbit season!”
“I say it’s duck season, and I say fire!”
Comrade Cris, prospective apple cart vendor
I know this is a stupid question that’s certainly been answered before, but why this bill? I mean, can’t a person be glad this bill went down, but still support a bailout? Like, say, one that’s only $300 billion, or $150 billion? Or one that contains the kind of conditions Bernie Sanders suggests?
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Well, to be fair, Kucinich voted against it.
Scrutinizer
Is this like, the only thread today?
liberal
ThymeZone wrote,
I’ll hurl the worst epithet known to mankind at you: that sounds like a line from David Broder.
Jon H
“My, you’re not a very bright fellow, are you?”
I am, actually. If you’re starting at 1% interest and interest rises “by 22%”, you’re now at 1.22%. That’s a lot easier to stomach than if it starts at 10% interest and ends up at 12.2%.
A 22 basis point rise in interest rate is not remotely as bad as a 220 basis point rise, though both might be 22% increases.
dslak
No! And you should be ashamed of yourself, because now people are dying in the streets.
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
From TPM:
I can hardly wait. The Lord of the Flies aspect of this mess is the only thing about it that’s entertaining.
liberal
Jon H wrote,
Win
ThymeZone
Okay. YOu can’t borrow a dime. YOur employer can’t borrow a dime, and walks back his expectations for the next 3 years. YOur job gets eliminated into a consolidation. You lose your health insurance. YOu get sick and rack up a $300k hospital bill (you can do that in a week, easy).
Your car gets repossessed. Your home goes into foreclosure. Your wife has to take a second job to afford groceries. Your resume keeps getting rejected. Your brother has similar problems plus his retirement fund goes bust and he comes to live with you. His wife is a shrew who screams at him while you are trying to sleep and you get stressed out and have to go on disability.
Then you come here and find out, hey, those Fat Cats are finally getting theirs, so this depression we are in is actually a Good Thing Long Overdue.
And while you are getting ready to make a post, they cut off your internet account for nonpayment and you are sitting there playing Solitaire on your computer and wondering where it all went into the toilet.
jake
Forward, Joe Lieberman!
ThymeZone
You sound like a person who is not paying attention.
Mr Furious
Comrade Cris, see my comment at #324.
THAT is my problem. Why was THIS the only thing considered? Paulson set up the frame and all that went on for the last ten days was nibbling around the edges.
I didn’t see ANYTHING from ANYONE that made me comfortable that this was a good solution after careful analysis.
All I saw was politicians (NOT economists) run around trying to make Paulson’s opening bid politically viable.
That’s not the right approach.
Comrade The Moar You Know
Small loss for me, I think.
I’m sorry that you feel as though you have some kind of vested interest in the Ponzi scheme that is our economy. You don’t. Ponzi schemes always end the same way, and the bagholders never end up recouping their losses.
You’re a bagholder, by the way. So am I. So are we all.
But do swear and panic and stomp around more, it gives John page views and that’s never a bad thing.
Comrade Cris, prospective apple cart vendor
Jesus, TZ, at least you still have a computer. I have to play solitaire with real cards.
ThymeZone
McCain about to speak!
“I was for this bailout and declared it done thanks to me, before I was against it and declared it still needing to be done thanks to me. Oh, and the negro is off campaigning somewhere while I am putting Country First.
“Oh, and SHUT UP about Palin. “
Comrade Napoleon
A bunch of other liberals did also.
dslak
And that would give McCain a good excuse to dump Palin in favor of the man he really wanted all along. When that ticket goes down in flames, it’s win all around!
Mr Furious
TZ @ 350…always a glass half-full kind of guy.
liberal
ThymeZone wrote,
No, I’m a person who realizes that wishing we could take the politics out of politics won’t make it so.
Kali's Little Sister
Shorter Issa: The McCain Mutiny is at full tilt.
Stuck in the Fun House
It’s still not as low as the period after 9-11. I think it got down below 8 thou. for a short period.
Scrutinizer
The bill that wasn’t passed today allowed $250B outstanding available immediately, increasing up to $350B outstanding on certification by the President. Congress would have had to pass a joint resolution to authorize additional amounts assuming the President requested it.
dslak
McCain is now on TV trying to salvage the bill.
charlotte
These Republicans are some crazy mothers.
Frank’s line about talking to them extra nicely got a huge laugh.
I think I saw Rahm E. behind him struggling not to dissolve into gales of hysterical laughter.
This is going to make one hell of a biting South Park episode. I think only Cartman can save the Republic at this point. Rep. Boner always looks super shiny and really really stoned. Off to turn my American flag upside down. God help us.
ThymeZone
Well sure, losing half your fan base would be a small thing to you. You still have Birdzilla.
But seriously, you are so wrong, there isn’t even a word for how wrong you are.
Okay, you are “Terri Schiavo can understand what I say” kind of wrong.
dslak
McCain’s blaming Obama et al for sinking the bill by being “too partisan.” That was the extent of his comments. Methinks the punditry is going to flay him alive.
Mr Furious
Gimme a link Scrutinizer, because that is NOT how I understood it.
Kali's Little Sister
McCain: “Senator Obama and his colleagues injected unnecessary politics into the process. Now is not the time to afix blame…”
I shit you not.
Comrade General Stuck
Like what some idiot said. Soup Beans is the Caviar of the forlorned and foreclosed. And it don’t cost no 100 bucks a pound.
liberal
Mr Furious wrote,
Uh, you’re asking that your interlocutor consult the Constitution and realize that Congress, not Treasury, has the power to legislate.
Maybe you’re asking too much?
Martin
This one was $250B with Bush able to approve another $100B and with Congress able to block the last $350B. People need to understand what they are railing against.
jake
You just reminded me that I once thought JoLie would be the most hilarious and alarming Veep pick for McPOW.* After a few weeks of Palin tossing the word salad, it seems so long ago.
*But only because Alan “Cloud Talker” Keyes was a little too far-fetched.
mantis
Looks like today is going to force a political correction on the Hill. With opposition to the bailout already falling dramatically before today’s events, the near collapse of yet another bank (no swallowed up by Citigroup), and a near 800-point drop in the Dow, support for the bailout should shoot up in the next couple of days, giving enough swing state congressmen cover to pass the next iteration (or simply round two for the same bill).
It’s a shame, as I had started hoping for a better solution.
Annette
Testing again…
mySQL Threads: 8 / Questions: 68713 / Opens: 10948 / Flush tables: 1 / Open tables: 64 / Queries per second avg: 44.388
Apache 177 concurrent connections.
Flushing spam, two additional blocked scraper bots, resort on refresh comments/admin pages for comment table (total records 462719).
Random amusing note: last scraper bot rolling through caused load to spike at 43.93, IP belongs to
OrgName: ALASKA Department of Transportation and Public Facilities
OrgID: ADTPF
Address: Alaska DOT&PF ISD 3132 Channel
Address: Drive, Rm 250
City: Juneau
StateProv: AK
Test test
liberal
Mr Furious wrote,
Me neither.
Punchy
If you thought Paulson was gunna distrubute 700 BILL 6 weeks ‘fore the election, and a couple hundred mill wasnt’ going to be “lost” into the RNC or some other shadowy PAC, I’ve got some fancy Chiefs/Broncos Arrowhead tix to sell ya.
The nature of the bill had graft, theft, blackmail, greymail, greenmail, palm-greasing, and hijinx written all over it.
dslak
Kali’s Little Sister, not only are those remarks patently absurd, that’s the extent of what he had to say (beyond brazenly congratulating himself for practically writing the bill) about the crisis.
That’s how McCain plans to win this election, folks: by blaming the economic meltdown on Barack Obama. And to think that only 40% or more of Americans will believe him.
TheFountainHead
Ouch. Low blow. Especially here. The ghost of John Cole – R will now rise up to do your bidding.
ThymeZone
Nobody tells a big lie better than Johnny. Except maybe for Newt Gingrich, or maybe Tom DeLay.
Okay, Mitch McConnell too.
That’s right, the largest Wall Street plunge in history is a JOKE! It’s FUNNY! HUHAHUHA! All those fat cats are GETTIN IT UP THE ASS FINALLY! Stop yer ballyachin!
Welcome to idiotland.
Juan del Llano
Except that no one had any idea whether it really would have worked or not. :-)
Sure, something needs to be done, but I tell you, my first reaction to the vote was great relief. The thought of pouring all that money into a hole just made me sick, especially considering all the great things we’ve always been told we can’t afford as a country. Now the White House has to work with the Democrats, and something better can result. Or nothing! I just don’t believe the doomsday talk: it’s too self-serving, just like the Great War on Terror. It’s of a piece with all of that, and it sucks doggy dicks.
liberal
Martin wrote,
IIRC Congress’ call on that last $350 could be vetoed by the Prez, which makes it pretty much useless. But maybe I’m wrong on that.
ThymeZone
That’s right baby. When your opponent is on the ground, grab him around the neck and kick him in the ass.
Patton. McCain-strong, Palin-unblinking. BITCHES.
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
Not true. He also made sure there were no earmarks in the bill.
No, really. He said that.
liberal
ThymeZone wrote,
Largest by what measure? The most meaningful would be percent.
Comrade Cris, prospective apple cart vendor
Tell me about it. That’s why I have mostly refrained from railing — I am a lost little lamb in the woods about this stuff.
Nice.
Dow may be down 700, but this thread is poised to hit 500. I think the person who makes the 500th comment should get a prize. Wachovia stock or something.
jake
Says the man who thinks the U.S. economy is going to come out of its spiral if we just clap harder and trust the crooks who got us in to this mess one more time.
That takes balls. Or some sort of allergic reaction to one’s medication.
Martin
Per day? Going from 1% to 1.22% in a day is still pretty alarming. How many Fed meetings do we usually have to push through to get a quarter point and how strong does the market usually react to that? Today alone we got a 2/3 point raise in rates. Interest rates are up 2 1/2% in 10 days. Are we starting to see where this is leading?
One observation I’ll make is that I’m just a little bit happy for once that the big oil refiners are sitting on so much cash that they can afford to get those refineries back online without trying to find someone to loan them money. Maybe you guys in the southeast will get gas soon.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
That? Is awesome.
Billy K(hrushchev)
clusterstock.com/2008/9/analyzing-the-bailout-what-s-in-it-anyway-
Here’s what I think Scrutinizer is talking about.
I think it sounds like crap. According to this, it’s pretty much a guaranteed $700B. Denying the last $350B chunk would be nigh impossible.
ThymeZone
OMFG, CNN has Suzy Orman:
“This is still a time to invest. Unless it’s all the money you have, don’t invest that.”
Good christ, we should all be on CNN making the big bucks. It appears to be easy.
liberal
ThymeZone wrote,
But it’s not, if you use the most reasonable metric, percent decrease: While the Dow ended up losing 6.98 percent today, it stayed below the 22.6 percent drop seen on the Black Monday crash of October 1987 — the worst day in market history — and the double-digit drops seen during the start of the Great Depression.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Fuck. I’ve been meaning to see a mortgage broker to get some quotes locked in for 90 days. Guess I’m fucked now as this should hit us up here any time real soon now.
And I can’t vote for or against any of your guys either. Nice.
liberal
jake wrote,
Doesn’t ThymeZone have some kind of connection to the FIRE sector? If so, a little more humility on his/her part would be in order.
mantis
I saw that scare headline too, and thought, “Really? Worse than ’87?” Then I remembered the DJI has increased more than 500% since then.
Martin
They were supposed to. The bill was forced to be bi-partisan. A bunch of Democrats were supposed to vote against it in order to force Republicans to vote for it. The GOP blew their side of it.
patrick
It’s like if your kid came home in trouble – a very serious immediate problem with long-term consequences.
First you want to help them out of the mess, but when you start asking around, you find out they’ve been lying to you about the whats and hows of it for a very long time.
You’re angry and scared at the same time and you don’t really know what to do.
You got to do something to help them out, but they have to learn a hard lesson from it too – and it’s a fine line between doing too much and doing too little.
Kali's Little Sister
Darrell Issa made it clear that there is a contiguent of House Repubs who are not connected to the Aministration (natch) or to their own House leadership to any great extent.
Here is what I think I heard. In addition to claiming McCain did not speak to him, at a later point, he said “…John McCain, I think its still John McCain…”
So it looks like a revolution has been declared within the Republican party. But really, given their hand right now? As someone said so well earlier, that took longer than I thought it would.
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
Some Republichick on CSPAN walking back the “Pelosi hurt our feelings” comments: “We’re not a bunch of thumb-sucking babies.”
Let the cartoons… BEGIN!
ThymeZone
That’s right, that Warren Buffet is such a fucking LOSER
AND PUSSY.
Don’t kid yourself, he is waiting for the party to rise again, like the South.
When he goes to Gettysburg, he gets his picture taken in front of the statue of Lee.
srv
What nobody has said is how this is really, really good for Hillary.
Comrade The Moar You Know
I have a fanbase?
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
Is the mother of all fucking tools. The only thing good about Issa is that Debbie Schlussel has made it her purpose in life to expose him as some secret Lebanese Hezbollah supporter.
Other than that, he’s a tax on carbon.
ThymeZone
Noope.
Now, let’s talk about your arrest for child molestation …….
b-psycho
Damn right!
b. hussein canuckistani
Mary-
If you can kill someone, Bad Horse will get you a mortgage at 2 points below prime. It’s one of the perks.
ThymeZone
Yeah, the guy who writes Birdzilla thinks you’re cool.
Marshall
(Channeling some of my departed kinfolk.)
Well, I do declare, those Democrats are acting beastly, I mean just beastly again, All you would have to do is just take one good look at the Republican Congress to know that there isn’t a sound constitution in the lot of them. It’s a miracle they didn’t all just faint dead away, the poor, weak creatures, once that awful Ms Pelosi started insulting them so. Where are my smelling salts ? Old Mr. Boehner just keeled over from the strain. The prospect of a tongue lashing from that scary ole’ Harry Reid was just more than he could bear, but maybe we could revive him in time for roll call.
liberal
One thing that is laughable is the complaints from the business sector. E.g.,
These are the m*****f*****s who put these Republican thugs in Congress and the WH to begin with.
ThymeZone
Note to admins, this thing seriously breaks in my Firefox 3.0.3.
After a post or two, any copy results in a paste of the entire thread into the comment editing window.
And why is my 399 in moderation?
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
The Republiclowns are now vowing “give me free markets or give me death.” And now they’re fucking bringing up McCain’s “suspension” as the miracle that allowed them to push their agenda!
If Salvador Dali were alive today, he’d abandon surrealism in the face of the true masters.
Martin
You probably won’t see a huge change on normative loans ($415K and under) since there’s still a big market there. If you need a jumbo, bend over and grease up.
Comrade The Moar You Know
I live just south of Issa’s district, he’s scared shitless of losing his job and worse. If he votes for this, he’d have a mob at the door, and I don’t mean figuratively.
jake
TZ is a loud, erratic elderly gent from Arizona who seems to have a lot of time on his hands.
Hmm…
ThymeZone
Gee, I dunno. Penis length?
TenguPhule
And still nobody can answer two simple questions about the stupid bill
1. How does it work?
2. How do we pay for it?
liberal
ThymeZone wrote,
OK…so your holier-than-thou, “I’m omniscient on the financial sector, and you don’t know squat” act stems from…?
ThymeZone
Which of us has made the most posts here in the last 30 days, lying cocksucker?
tavella
No, you are not. The tranching was a lie. Treasury could request the whole $700 billion immediately, and the only way it would be stopped would be a 2/3s vote by both houses.
This is one of a number of reasons why, despite TZ’s theatrics, that I’m glad the bill failed. If they actually thought financial armageddon was around the corner, they would have been willing to compromise. Instead, what was got was the Paulson bill with a little smear of lipstick.
The Democrats should put together a good, Swedish style bill, pass it — party line democrat if needed — and tell Bush to shut and sign if he really thinks there needs to be a bailout.
TenguPhule
That can be arranged.
ThymeZone
Cite, please?
jake
I don’t know. Ask one of your aides to count when they finish tallying your houses, Senator.
TenguPhule
Irony of the Day, sad to say.
Martin
Keep in mind that analysis had a very deliberate reading.
cleek
on the other hand, the public only knows a caricatured version of what the plan was about.
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
Holtz-Eakin blames Obama and the Dems for cock-blocking McCain’s hero fantasy.
Some day, modern science will isolate the pathological liar gene.
WARNING: Make sure you’re not drinking anything if you don’t want to ruin your monitor.
ThymeZone
Well, find out.
w vincentz
Yikes! This thread really took off.
I’m going to hold my breath (until Thurs) like the Refugs, stamp my feet a few times, and come back later.
In the meanwhile, I’ll be drivin’ around lookin’ for roadkills.
Woodchuck, raccoon, and puppy recipes to follow.
Buy my cookbook!
Comrade The Moar You Know
Wow. Thanks for that, liberal. There’s really only one thing to say:
I AM IN AWE OF THEIR GIANT BRASS FUCKING BALLS.
TenguPhule
Fish, Barrel, Dynamite.
liberal
ThymeZone wrote,
LOL!
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Thanks for all the mortgage advice. I may have been reading too quickly, but I believe it may involve sex with a horse. I don’t think things are quite that bad yet.
As I mentioned above, public opinion may not be as opposed to the bailout as first polls showed. I wonder if any polls taken tomorrow will show an even greater shift.
ThymeZone
Two houses. I can see them both from where I am sitting.
Next?
Hobo Todd
Well, if we’re not going to be “Comrades” anymore, I’d like to be called “Hobo” Todd in honor of the near Great Depression.
Jon H
cleek wrote: “on the other hand, the public only knows a caricatured version of what the plan was about.”
The public only knows a caricatured version of the problem.
But, hell, the same is true of Congress.
ThymeZone
Well then, they shouldn’t have been on tv declaring victory before there was a vote, AMIRITE?
Jon H
What’s amazing is how strongly the public opposes a bailout, even though the media has pretty much presented the Bush administration’s estimate of the problem as if it were as undeniable as an approaching hurricane on a radar screen.
Comrade The Moar You Know
That’s the most awesome display of fail I have ever seen. And good on the press for finally growing a pair.
liberal
Comrade The Moar You Know wrote,
Oh, come on. I wasn’t even sure I should’ve posted that, given how obvious the point is about the business sector.
OTOH, the sheer brazenness of it all is certainly amusing.
…
I guess it’s like the Palin thing. Now that the Rethugs have seen fit to celebrate premarital conception at their convention, we don’t have to listen to their sh*t about single motherhood anymore. Or, like JC said in a post a few days ago, we don’t have to listen to this idolatry of the pure free market anymore.
And now, when business lobbies open their yaps, we can tell them were to go, too.
Not that we ever had to listen to it, of course.
:-)
Scrutinizer
dslak @ 136
Just for companies in the Dow, the total market capitalization is around $3T. Today’s loss on the Dow was around 7%. That comes to a loss of $210B just for the companies in the Dow.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
Jon H, the public may not currently oppose a bailout all that strongly.
Adrienne
This bill only gave $250B to start with. The other money would have to be requested and approved by Congress as needed.
It basically did.
Did you read that bill? It wasn’t perfect by a long shot, but it was as good as it was gonna get. Republicans, for all their “toughness” are some pussy, pansy-ass whiners. Boo hoo.
Shorter Republicans: We just ruined the world economy because mean ol’ Nancy Pelosi hurt our feelings.
What a bunch of pussies.
Cranky in AZ
We contacted our congressional leader (Trent Franks) about the bill. His associated said he couldn’t support the bill because a) didn’t suspend capital gains tax for two years and b) didn’t give a corporate tax cut. So much for helping out the little guy.
Comrade General Stuck
Brass Cajonas indeed. Those Cof C motherfuckers just moved up a notch on the to be Tarred and Feathered list. We will start with the Tar and let it “trickle down” from head to toe. Followed by a coat of the finest Turkey feathers their money can buy.
ThymeZone
Uh, you are suggesting that because I sign onto a rather widely held view, including one stated by both Republicans and Democrats, that I am representing myself as “omniscient” on financial matters?
Or to put it another way, if I suggest that Warren Buffet might know more than you do, I am presenting myself as “omniscient?” If I suggest that a 700 point drop in the DOW and a hosing of the credit infrastructure are not good things for America, I am representing myself as “omniscient “on financial matters?
Got it. You fucking guys couldn’t argue a fly onto a balogna sandwich.
Fucking idiots.
liberal
TenguPhule quoted,
I’m thinking along the lines of (IIRC) TZ saying to JSF or something to get the bleep away, and how he (TZ) had taken (what his tone suggested to be) super secret measures to protect his portfolio, and how everyone else ought to look after themselves before the deluge.
Comrade Thelonious
CNN just said cumulative losses in the S&P today were $1 Trillion.
Scrutinizer
368 @ furious
Section 115, I think.
Chuck Butcher
Cripes, for the “I could give a rat’s ass” crowd this thing isn’t about some little correction. This is about a fundamental failure that takes out almost the entire economy and sinks the world. That is just exactly a recipe for chaos and violence on a world wide scale, does WWII strike any memory chords? OK, I’ve been struggling this year, letting it hit the wall finishes me probably permanently, that may not bother you – but how about your friends and family?
Stop the bleeding and then deal with the underlying problems.
liberal
ThymeZone wrote,
No, I’m suggesting it because you ooze it.
TenguPhule
You’re arguing in bad faith against an equally valid view that the $700 billion for shit sandwich will solve nothing.
By claiming only your view is right, what else are you representing then?
w vincentz
@ comrade mary,
Horses are good. Sex is also. I don’t combine them.
There’s more money in porn than there is in horses. Just look at last week’s Keeneland yearling sale……..down 58 million from last year’s.
There’s lot’s of cash to be had with “sex”.
I think I’ll become more invested in that.
For now, I’m back to writing the sequels to my previous books, “50 Delicious Soup Recipes From Lawn Clippings and Other Yard Bounty”, and “Free Protien From the Roadside”.
The sequel title tentatively is “A Beginner’s Interior Designer’s Guide to Making your Large Appliance Box a Remembrance of Your Dorm Room”.
TenguPhule
But is this shit sandwich stopping the bleeding or simply opening up the artery?
Jon H
“CNN just said cumulative losses in the S&P today were $1 Trillion.”
Only if you sell.
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
McCain sez: Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!
liberal
Chuck Butcher wrote,
I for one am not saying “do nothing.” I’m saying, take 48 hours and write a better bill.
Yes, I’m familiar enough with the credit system to know there are big risks here. But everything has its costs. If you really think the risk is that high, why stop at $700 B? Why don’t we just give everything to the parasitic filth that got us into this mess in the first place?
It’s fine to say, “the stakes are so high, we must give into the blackmailing, thuggish parasites in the FIRE sector or else the sky will fall.” But there’s a limit, isn’t there?
If things are really that tight, what would be wrong with Congress passing a stopgap measure with these sh*tty terms, but only $100 — $150 B, say? There’s no way that the $700 B can be injected in a couple months anyway.
I say: let’s get a Sweden-like plan going now, or pass a $100B crap plan and punt until after the election.
TenguPhule
You may be interested in my upcoming release “How to serve Man”.
liberal
Jon H wrote,
Uh, please stop injecting reality based concepts like “percentage and percentage points are not identical” and “realized and unrealized gains/losses are not the same thing,” OK? Some folks here don’t like that kind of stuff.
Comrade Cris, prospective apple cart vendor
Of course not. I am guilty of what Chairman Cleek charged above: reacting to caricatures. Actually, I’m not even that thorough: I’m reacting to reactions to caricatures.
Comrade Peter J
Cris Ivanon is a true Hero of the Soviet Union.
jake
My friends and family are all a bunch of smart asses. We’ve been joking about the best way to cook a rat for months.
This isn’t people who are screwed v. people who are not screwed (except for the Senator from Arizona). This is people who are screwed coping with their screwedness in different ways.
Comrade Delia
Jeez. This place is going to turn into the new GOS, what with threads over 450 posts on the first day with the new server and all. Whatever shall we do?
Comrade General Stuck
Maybe not. But I bet we spell Bologna right. Must be all the hysteria.
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
Start troll-rating each other and passing out mojo?
Dennis - SGMM
Not that things are going downhill but, the California Department of Fish and Game is soliciting bids for printing Dog Season and Cat Season posters.
Conservatively Liberal
I contacted his office several times asking him to vote against it. I believe that something has to be done but what has been rushed together is not it, this requires careful examination and construction of a bill that really addresses the problems that we face. This bums rush to a bill is not helping anyone, we need thoughtful, careful, contemplative decision making and that is not happening right now. The worst time to deal with a crisis like this is right before an election, as the Democrats found out when Bush pushed the AUMF on them in October 2002. Now the shoe is on the other foot, but the right want the Democrats to wear this one too.
I listened to the call between Treasury and SIFMA last night and it is clear that this bill is not in our best interests. Back to the drawing board.
You build them and I will be glad to paint them! Those of us who can works with our hands are going to fare better than those who have no such skills, but the future is looking pretty bleak for everyone. People who can’t afford anything are not going to be buying guitars or furniture.
TenguPhule
When they start doing Tourist season posters, then we’re in trouble.
Marshall
Got a jpeg ? I would like to see those.
Juan del Llano
Buying??? We don’ need no steenking BUYING!
“Hey, I’ll trade you this chair for that old dog!”
“Sure, I’m tired of sitting in the goddamned mud.”
“HONEY! Get the kettle boiling, we got MEAT tonight!”
Conservatively Liberal
True dat, and the IRS is going to totally hate it if it comes down to that. I barter all of the time, and it is pretty funny going out to repair a computer and bring home a bunch of home grown produce in trade. Good thing my wife cans and that we have a deep freeze. One job netted us a bunch of steaks that lasted us quite some time. At the rate things are going I can see a lot more of this happening in the future.
Barter works, especially when cash won’t.
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
Fed prints up $630B and shovels it into the markets?
I don’t pretend to understand what this is about, but I’ll probably need to hose out my wheelbarrow to haul my dollars to the bread line.
Conservatively Liberal
Now there is no need for the $700 billion? ;)
Instead of a wheelbarrow, you might want to invest in a steam powered dump truck. You can burn the cash you are carrying to the store to buy a can of soup. Two birds with one stone, ya kno.
Think economical!
nicethugbert
What??!?! Cole?!?! Did you just issue the rethugs a, “No More Stunts for You!”, or a, “Cease and Desist All Whine Operations, Now!”?!?? The gall! The show must go on, and noting, and I mean absolutely nothing gets in the way of Repuglican Vaudeville! Because, My Friends, the universe exists for no other reason but Repuglican Vaudeville!
Polish the Guillotines (formerly FLILF Hunter)
Sounds about right.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
My suggestion:
We declare a winner in the current Monopoly game, all the Monopoly money goes back to the bank where we then redistribute the bank notes and start over again. I get the top hat this time, I’m sick of that silly worn out shoe.
dslak
You’re not the first to express those sentiments.
steelhead
Wall Street told Pelosi et al that if the bill was not approved, it would take worldwide markets down and Main Street investors (401-k etc.) would suffer greatly. Guess what is happening. Fear, fear, fear. Watch the Congress Critters fold and give the BushCo Mafia everything they want after the holiday break this week.
Soylent Green
This whole quandary of which is worse, bailout or crash, reminds me of a joke:
Doctor: I have good news and bad news.
Patient: What’s the bad news?
Doctor: We accidentally amputated the wrong leg.
Patient: Jesus, that’s terrible! What’s the good news?
Doctor: Your bad leg is getting better.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Good analogy of what’s really going on here
Those who want to just watch all the banks fail are in fact hoping for the death of America and Americans.
I can understand the sentiment that banks should fail, but really, is anyone here willing to sacrifice the lives of the little people that are going to fall when we kill that dragon? The dragon will take as many as he can with him, are you willing to put their lives on the chopping block?
If we didn’t like this system, we should have never implemented it in the first place (granted, pretty much all of us here were born into it and didn’t have the chance to say “no!”).
The blame isn’t on anyone currently in power, the blame is on those who long ago created this moneychanging scheme.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Good analogy of what’s really going on here
Those who want to just watch all the banks fail are in fact hoping for the death of America and Americans.
I can understand the sentiment that banks should fail, but really, is anyone here willing to sacrifice the lives of the little people that are going to fall when we kill that dragon? The dragon will take as many as he can with him, are you willing to put their lives on the chopping block?
If we didn’t like this system, we should have never implemented it in the first place (granted, pretty much all of us here were born into it and didn’t have the chance to say “no!”).
The blame isn’t on anyone currently in power, the blame is on those who long ago created this moneychanging scheme. Now that we have it, it will be hell getting rid of it.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Sorry, I tried to stop that first post because I realized I wasn’t done. Apologies for the double post.
Comrade Trotsky
NO BAILOUTS! NO EXCEPTIONS! LET WALL STREET BURN. BURN BABY BURN!!!
Comrade Fedorovich Stuck
Perfect! LMAO
JonChicago
We need to loosen up credit markets so that businesses can conduct business and consumers (who have legitimate credit) can borrow and purchase. Anything less causes everything to grind to a halt. Let’s look at the non-conforming jumbo loan. If I wanted to refi my house right now, b/c I am in a jumbo non-conforming loan one rate that was quoted to me was 9.5%. That is insane. Historically fair but insane given today’s economics. Banks do not have nor are they lightly giving up their cash for lending purposes. Everything will grind to a halt. What is most to blame for this is the loose lending standards that evolved out of the interest rate reductions. The loose standards encouraged the free for all orgy that we now have to pay for. Do I like it. No. But do I want to cut of my nose to spite my face. No. I am glad that Sen. McCain is taking full credit for today’s events. At least that is what he said at 10 am.
Comrade grumpy realist
Watching John McCain’s so-called “strategy” which has boomeranged back and bit him firmly in the ass (to mix my metaphors), I have to say:
This is the best “own-goal” EVAH. Not only satisfied with placing the 10 kg weight around his neck, he added another 20 kg to his pockets and jumped in the river.
Oh, and about the bailout….Dow drops another 400+ points tomorrow, people start getting even more hysterical about their pension funds and less about Those Evil Bastards Getting Bailed out and somehow another bail-out package will be cobbled together and passed “bipartisanly” to thunderous applause. The stock market, being the maniac-depressive idiot child that it is, will suddenly perk up, zoom up 500 points, and Happy Days Are Here Again.
JonChicago
I have been reading a few other sites and i am disappointed in the crap coming out of the right. They are blaming the Dems for not passing the bill. Either be happy or disappointed in your representatives vote. Dems voted 60% in favor of the bill. This is how bipartisan bills on controversial issues are supposed to go. Each party has some skin in the game. So either get off your high horse and get pissed off at your own party or say that you are in agreement with their vote. But don’t blame the Dems, we secured our vote. And Cantor et al. cram Pelosi’s speech up your arse. You weren’t even listening any way. But you did somehow have an official copy in your hand for the press conference. How pathetic.
Kamishna ya Watu Xenos
And what was so incendiary about Pelosi’s speech? Pointing out that deregulation has created a monster, and that the GOP is largely to blame? I thought it was an attempt to sell the deal to an extra 20 or so Democrats, and may have been the difference between getting 50% and 60% of the Democratic caucus to support the deal.
If we had a parliamentary system the government would have collapsed yesterday and we would be getting a new ruling coalition in the next few days. Instead, more drift, where the the House GOP does not even have meaningful leadership anymore. TZ has it completely right here: Pelosi needs to put together a New Deal style bill the whole Democratic House Caucus can support and pass it, and let the GOP filibuster in the Senate, and if passed there, to then dare Bush to veto it. That is how this business works – make the GOP eat a bigger shit sandwich each week, until they are finished and crushed.