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You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2008 / An Interesting Observation

An Interesting Observation

by John Cole|  October 8, 20088:53 am| 65 Comments

This post is in: Election 2008, Excellent Links, Politics

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Michael Scherer at Swampland notes something we talked about during liveblogging:

Neither candidate has the courage to speak straight with the American people about our nation’s fiscal problems. Asked about the financial crisis, McCain talked about energy independence, hitting the same talking points he used in July. Obama talked about the need to give tax cuts to the middle class, and expand spending programs, a proposal he put forward last year. Both men have proposed policies that will lead to an increase in the deficit, according to independent analysts, even without a dramatic economic downturn, which looks increasingly inevitable. Neither man has shown any clear intention to tell Americans to face head on the hard economic times that await us. This is politics. The candidates are playing it safe, not telling voters anything they don’t want to hear. They choose to demagogue Wall Street instead. Let’s just pray that after the election, the winner drops this politicking and becomes the bold, honest leader both men claim to be. The nation will need it.

I used fewer words:

9:13 pm- They are both full of shit. This economy is in a deepening recession, and the economy is going to get much worse.

Among the number of things that really concerns me is that there still has not been an honest appraisal of how bad things are right now, even when both candidates were given a chance to talk about sacrifice last night. There are, I think, some very tough times ahead. We don’t just have a crisis in confidence right now, we have a deep structural problems and a mountain of debt and an aging population that has been promised a great deal of entitlement money and I just don’t see any end in sight. Things are really a mess.

On top of all that, Matt Yglesias has a good post up about how right now, spending cuts on the federal level may be the worst thing possible. While there is no doubt that Obama is the superior candidate of the two, this lack of openness about how bad things really are is depressing. I understand it, as no one can run on a platform of “You all are going to have to do with less,” but that is the reality, in my estimation.

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Reader Interactions

65Comments

  1. 1.

    Leo

    October 8, 2008 at 8:57 am

    Here‘s an awesome comment from Redstate:

    The main take-away from last night’s debates is that it’s a bad idea to nominate two senators – you get the policy bore-fest instead of the simple "I want to lower taxes, crush the terrorists, and get government out of people’s way" policy statements.

    You see, the problem with elections in America is that they focus too much on policy and not enough on pandering platitudes.

  2. 2.

    Billy K(hrushchev)

    October 8, 2008 at 8:58 am

    "You all are going to have to do with less" is true, and I’m sure at least Obama knows it, if not McCain. But the moment either says that, they lose the election.

    Assuming I’m right, would you still like Obama to say it?

  3. 3.

    Edmund Dantes

    October 8, 2008 at 9:00 am

    It’s simple really. The last president that had the gall to tell the American people life isn’t all rosy, and they are going to have to sacrifice has been villified as one of the worst presidents by pundits, commenters, and most people that reflexively have integrated the propaganda without realizing it.

    Go back and re-read the speech Carter gave. The one that is used against him so much by Republicans, pundits, and Reagan’s campaign. It was a sober assesment of what was happening, and a plan for the sacrifices we would have to make to get out of it.

    America decided it would rather stick it’s head in the sand and pretend "it was morning in America". It worked for 30+ years, but the bill is finally coming due for America’s aversion to facing the reality that has been there since the late 70’s

  4. 4.

    Phoebe

    October 8, 2008 at 9:05 am

    Go Edmund.

  5. 5.

    slaney black

    October 8, 2008 at 9:08 am

    Wall Street/Big Media/Political Class to voters:

    "Oh noes! They’re gonna do something that might not primarily enrich us! Let’s dump an assload of cash on ourselves before they fritter it all away!"

    Sorry rubes, no healthcare. We already done spent the money!!!

  6. 6.

    DBrown

    October 8, 2008 at 9:10 am

    Yeah – Edwards; truth does not elect anyone, voters do and they only respond to positive spin that telss them all will be done for them at no cost except by others

  7. 7.

    Comrade Incertus

    October 8, 2008 at 9:13 am

    But the moment either says that, they lose the election.

    Example: Walter Mondale. He called Reagan out on his "I won’t raise your taxes" bullshit and lost 49 states as a result. (I’m sure there were other factors, but that’s what I remember–I was 16.)

  8. 8.

    Soylent Green

    October 8, 2008 at 9:14 am

    First you have to get elected.

    Most people know who they will be voting for. The debates are aimed at the remaining dummies who know so little about the issues that they can’t make a rational choice between two guys who are poles apart.

    They aren’t interested in statements about issues, truthful or otherwise, or whether the candidates’ proposals make any sense. They are choosing between personalities on the basis of their feelings. They don’t want to be informed, they want to feel good.

  9. 9.

    donovong

    October 8, 2008 at 9:15 am

    What Edmund said. Double.

    And, in addition, both candidates were wrongly skewered last debate because they "dodged" the question of what they would have to cut from their programs if elected. Any idiot who tries to predict what is going to happen in this shitstorm is just that – an idiot. If they paint too rosy a picture, they are criticized as being unrealistic. If they claim that things are going in the shitter faster than we can ever stuff our mattresses, millions more are going to panic. Who wins that argument?

  10. 10.

    Joshua

    October 8, 2008 at 9:15 am

    McCain has also mocked Obama for not saying what he will cut, but Obama can’t go on stage with a copy of the General Theory and talk about how no, the government should not be cutting spending in a recession and cite page numbers.

    These debates are a dog and pony show. You can’t get into detail with 1-2 minute questions, no follow up questions, and a moderator that whines every time you go over. I think that’s the one thing I learned in the past 8 years. Bush went on TV and said no nation building and compassionate conservatism and sound science. So what? Have to look beyond the debates. And if I did that and didn’t think Obama was better qualified I wouldn’t be posting here.

  11. 11.

    John S.

    October 8, 2008 at 9:19 am

    Things are really a mess.

    Sack up, man.

    This is not the fucking Great Depression. There will not be bread lines. Yes, things will be tough for a lot of people for quite a while, but I really don’t think it will approach nearly the scale or magnitude of what went down in the early 1930s.

    You think Obama is full of shit? Well, maybe he is a bit hesitant to acknowledge the full scope of the problem (for reasons well documented by Edmund Dantes). But if you read between the lines, you will see that Obama’s plans are very similar to what FDR did. Vast public works projects. Spearheading new technologies that we can profit from and export around the world. The creation of a new working class sector in "Green Jobs". And of course, shoring up the middle class.

    If you are worried that we are in the midst of another Depression, then you should take some solace in the fact that the solutions being offered by one candidate are very similar to the solutions that were utilized in far more trying times and with great success.

  12. 12.

    Comrade Peter J

    October 8, 2008 at 9:21 am

    McCain should have gambled on talking straight about the economy instead of gambling on smearing Obama. Even if it wouldn’t have worked, it would have left him with some dignity.

  13. 13.

    Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)

    October 8, 2008 at 9:22 am

    And, in addition, both candidates were wrongly skewered last debate because they "dodged" the question of what they would have to cut from their programs if elected.

    Both candidates realized that they were being asked the stupidest fucking questions by the worst fucking moderator in the history of the debates. Both went into spin/dodge mode and ran out the clock. Can’t say that I blame them. Brokaw was moronic.

    To second Edmund’s great comment above, there are a whole list of things that Obama may believe but dare not say. Does Obama really believe that Iran is an "existential threat"? Probably not. No one with a brain believes that. But if he said it, he’d be finished.

  14. 14.

    Napoleon

    October 8, 2008 at 9:23 am

    It would be insane to cut the budget. Matt Y is correct in what he says. At this time if anything you spend more (which is why Bush was insane to cut taxes when he did, you save the spending for bad times).

    I do have a couple of issues with some of his historical facts. First in talking about Scherer and the beltway consensous on cutting back he calls them "the new Hoovers". Honestly that is selling Hoover short. He actually at least started some of the progams and spending that FDR expanded, and it is a historical fact that FDR ran to Hoovers right on spending at that time and beat him. FDR promised to balance the budget as part of his program, and if you did the research I would guess you would find that at the time that was what the cool kids in Washington said you had to do to address the Great Depression.

  15. 15.

    shirt

    October 8, 2008 at 9:23 am

    Obama’s purpose is to win over the undecided middle; McPallin was to pander to his base. It isn’t important to count coup: for that, in fact, might allienate the very people you are trying to reach.

    Obama was polite, assertive and non-threatening and was carefull not to interfere with the McCain death spiral.

    What more do you want?

  16. 16.

    Phoenix Woman

    October 8, 2008 at 9:26 am

    The WaPo’s Ignatius had a similar complaint, John. So you’re not the only one to find fault with this avoidance. (Though as has already been said, nobody wants to be Fritz Mondale and say the inconvenient truth that sinks the campaign.)

    Apparently the Obama campaign heard these concerns, because they issued this statement today:

    Below is a Statement From Senator Barack Obama On The Action Taken By The Federal Reserve

    "I’ve said before that this is a global crisis that requires a global solution, and so I support the action of the Federal Reserve and other central banks around the world to cut interests rates and ease the mounting pressure on global credit markets. I hope this response continues as leaders of major financial institutions and representatives from nations around the world gather in Washington. But it is clear that more urgent and vigorous action is necessary to stem this crisis, which is making it impossible for businesses large and small to get loans and may have already cost Americans nearly $2 trillion from their retirement accounts. The Treasury Department must move quickly to implement a plan based on the rescue package we passed last week and use the authority they already have to purchase troubled assets, including mortgages. It is also critical that Treasury, in coordination with other government agencies, move as vigorously as possible to help homeowners stay in their homes. And I call on Congress to immediately pass a rescue plan for our middle-class that will save one millions jobs and provide relief to struggling families, small businesses, and Americans who are losing their homes," said Senator Barack Obama.

  17. 17.

    cleek

    October 8, 2008 at 9:28 am

    the economy always sucks when a Democrat takes over from a Republican. and that’s why we can’t have nice things. the only party that ever gets to spend money is the GOP, because they take over after the Dems put the country back on track.

  18. 18.

    Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)

    October 8, 2008 at 9:32 am

    Sack up, man.

    This is not the fucking Great Depression. There will not be bread lines.

    But there will be ponies? I like your optimism and hope you’re right. But I’m afraid this thing is just getting started. The credit markets are frozen, largely because of the swaps market, and frozen credit is death.

    I heard a great analogy yesterday. You’re in a room with 100 people, and 20 of those people have a deadly disease that is spread by touch. You have no idea who the 20 are, so your strategy is "touch no one". The banks have no idea who is toxic and who is not, so lending has frozen.

    You can send your thanks to the geniuses who thought a $60T unregulated financial market casino was a fine idea, and to Bush, Paulson, Cox, and Bernanke/Greenspan, who appear to have been completely asleep at the controls.

  19. 19.

    Comrade Peter J

    October 8, 2008 at 9:34 am

    This is not the fucking Great Depression.

    Everything’s bigger now.
    Instead of the Dust Bowl, we got Global Warming.
    I’m officially worried.

  20. 20.

    Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)

    October 8, 2008 at 9:36 am

    Well, since the edit button is gone, and blockquotes are fucked, let me try this again:

    Sack up, man. This is not the fucking Great Depression. There will not be bread lines.

    But there will be ponies? I like your optimism and hope you’re right. But I’m afraid this thing is just getting started. The credit markets are frozen, largely because of the swaps market, and frozen credit is death.

    I heard a great analogy yesterday. You’re in a room with 100 people, and 20 of those people have a deadly disease that is spread by touch. You have no idea who the 20 are, so your strategy is "touch no one". The banks have no idea who is toxic and who is not, so lending has frozen.

    You can send your thanks to the geniuses who thought a $60T unregulated financial market casino was a fine idea, and to Bush, Paulson, Cox, and Bernanke/Greenspan, who appear to have been completely asleep at the controls.

  21. 21.

    Comrade Peter J

    October 8, 2008 at 9:38 am

    Ohio registers 666,000 new voters

    The end is near.

    I’m beyond officially worried.

    On second thought

    Nearly 8.2 million people are registered in Ohio, after 665,949 new voters were added to the rolls since the beginning of the year, Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner announced today after Monday’s registration deadline.

    51 voters shy, that’s a relief, the world will go on.

  22. 22.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    October 8, 2008 at 9:40 am

    What Edmund said above.

    You fix the economy with the electorate you have, not the electorate you wish you had.

  23. 23.

    The Other Steve

    October 8, 2008 at 9:42 am

    the economy always sucks when a Democrat takes over from a Republican. and that’s why we can’t have nice things. the only party that ever gets to spend money is the GOP, because they take over after the Dems put the country back on track.

    It’s like a divorced couple with kids.

    Daddy takes the kids on the weekend, goes to the ball park, the amusement park, let’s them stay up late watching movies.

    Mommy says "Go to bed, you have school tomorrow." and "Did you do your homework?"

    Mommy is no fun!

  24. 24.

    Comrade Incertus

    October 8, 2008 at 9:45 am

    @Soylent Green: Did you see The Daily Show last night? Stewart and Oliver skewered undecided voters–it was effing brilliant.

  25. 25.

    Progressive Libertarian

    October 8, 2008 at 9:47 am

    Presidents can ask for sacrifices from the American people. Presidential candidates not so much.

    The question about sacrifice translates loosely into: "Senator Obama, would you care to write John McCain’s next attack ad for him? No? Senator McCain, same question."

  26. 26.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    October 8, 2008 at 9:47 am

    @Edmund Dantes: You left out the Q.E.D. at the end. Nice response.

  27. 27.

    jibeaux

    October 8, 2008 at 9:48 am

    You realize you just agreed with Scherer, then appeared to agree with Yglesias, who quoted the same thing and called it "ludicrous", right? Am I reading that right? In fairness, I think there’s truth to both: you have to spend to get out of a recession. And the recession is still going to suck and neither candidate wants to say that. Obama is not going to come out in a debate and say "go ahead and plant your victory gardens now, and the exact amount of your milk rations is TBD."

  28. 28.

    The Other Steve

    October 8, 2008 at 9:51 am

    Amy Sullivan has an interesting observation at swampland

    Basically she notes, that McCain is helping Obama by pointing out his position on Pakistan. :-)

  29. 29.

    jcricket

    October 8, 2008 at 9:54 am

    the economy always sucks when a Democrat takes over from a Republican. and that’s why we can’t have nice things. the only party that ever gets to spend money is the GOP, because they take over after the Dems put the country back on track.

    Except for FDR, and look how poorly that worked out for the country and Democrats. Oh wait, it resulted in 50 years of peace, prosperity and income growth? And the Democrats controlled the House for 40 years? Shoot, there goes my thesis.

    Seriously, Democrats need to stop being afraid of what the American public might think if they promote spending and taxing the rich – hint: they will like it if you just do it. That said, I think Obama’s being smart in not pushing some crazy big agenda just yet – he hasn’t won, and things don’t seem "that bad" to most. But in the next couple of years, Republicans will run farther to the right, the economy will get worse, and 2010 will probably be another chance for Democrats to seize the mantle of serious change – especially if we can go from the 56-58 seats we’ll have in the Senate to 60+ by then.

    BTW – anyone suggesting a spending freeze or cutting spending is a fucking moron. You think the credit crisis is causing lockups in the economy? Just wait until the government stops adding fuel to the fire. And don’t even get me started about his health care plan.

    I can’t shout this loudly enough – JOHN MCCAIN IS AN ECONOMIC WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

    The government is not like a private corporation or you and me, where cutting spending in the hard times is smart. Economic stimulus from government spending nearly always helps the economy (hint: those stimulus checks Republicans are always promoting are simply one form of government spending), and moreover, people need social services more than ever during deep recessions. Because the economy is always cyclical, we should generally be running surpluses, and "setting it aside" so that when times get tough we don’t have to cut spending like some propose.

    But of course, McCain’s going to free up lots of money by killing 0.6% of the budget (earmarks) and waste/fraud (~5% across everything, including defense). Oh, btw, those earmarks aren’t really fraud or bad – many are highway, bridge, school, etc. projects.

    If you want to hasten the Depression, vote McCain.

  30. 30.

    Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)

    October 8, 2008 at 9:56 am

    Brokaw: "Do you think the economy will get worse?"

    Obama: "Why yes, Tom, yes I do. And now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to pack my bags, head back to Illinois, and look for a job."

    Brokaw was a complete tool.

  31. 31.

    Arachnae

    October 8, 2008 at 10:00 am

    Uh… what everybody else said. First you win.

  32. 32.

    w vincentz

    October 8, 2008 at 10:06 am

    I hope that Barack brings Jimmy C into his administration as Sec of State. Jimmy’s peace initiatives have been proven.
    Imagine if the "defense" (war) industry had huge funding cuts to their budgets when global peace breaks out.
    The resources could be much better spent elsewhere.

    I have approved this message.

  33. 33.

    John Cole

    October 8, 2008 at 10:06 am

    @jibeaux: I think Scherer is right in his diagnosis that neither is being straightforward about the extent of the crisis, but I think Yglesias is right about the spending.

  34. 34.

    Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)

    October 8, 2008 at 10:07 am

    Best "shorter" in the history of shorters?

  35. 35.

    Lee

    October 8, 2008 at 10:08 am

    …there still has not been an honest appraisal of how bad things are right now….

    I wonder if anyone really knows how bad it is going to get. That might be the reason why everyone seems to be vague on the details.

  36. 36.

    Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)

    October 8, 2008 at 10:15 am

    I wonder if anyone really knows how bad it is going to get. That might be the reason why everyone seems to be vague on the details.

    Let me say this again, for emphasis: a $60T unregulated swaps market, created out of thin air. Unregulated = unknown. "Vague" is an understatement.

  37. 37.

    w vincentz

    October 8, 2008 at 10:15 am

    The reality of the situation is that endless "wars" funded with credit and a Pentagon that enjoys a blank check can no longer be sustained.
    It isn’t the "housing crisis" folks.
    The only way the planet’s countries will recover is to become as cooperative towards bringing peaceful solutions to problems as they’ve been to assisting their finanicial institutions.
    I also approve this message.

  38. 38.

    jcricket

    October 8, 2008 at 10:16 am

    BTW – I mentioned this once before, but at my gym there’s a guy who talks about how Carter got hammered for his whole turn down the thermostat and wear a sweater pramatism – and how 30 years later here we are again, ridiculing simple, common-sense ideas that would at least give us a buffer to handle these kinds of energy supply/price shocks.

    But Republicans have been fucking up the debate so long we can’t even discuss it.

    I hate them.

  39. 39.

    Atanarjuat

    October 8, 2008 at 10:24 am

    Nobama got schooled (and righteously so) by John McCain, and the gibbering wails of despair from the Ayers-enabling left are deafening in the extreme.

    Remember this, you dishonorable cadre of America-hating traitors: Old Glory survived the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and went on to massively triumph over its enemies. In this regard, so, too, will our great nation and all true American patriots inevitably triumph over underhanded smears vomited against the future President John McCain and Vice President Sarah Palin by the traitorous left (i.e., Democrats and most Balloon Juice commentators).

    Country First.

  40. 40.

    w vincentz

    October 8, 2008 at 10:31 am

    @ JCricket,
    I agree with you.
    The proplem that Carter had with his presidency was that he was in power when the bills came due for the Vietnam debacle. Remember? That "war" the was funded with debt and paid back with inflated dollars?
    The Carter Center has been on the lead on issues that of concern to the planet.
    Endless "wars" are NOT sustainable. They drain the planet’s resouces, fracture the common good, and divert mutual objectives form the "family of man".
    As Jimmy Carter quoted when he announced the Camp David accords, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."

    I also approve this message.

  41. 41.

    jibeaux

    October 8, 2008 at 10:34 am

    I think Scherer is right in his diagnosis that neither is being straightforward about the extent of the crisis, but I think Yglesias is right about the spending.

    Then we are all agreed, in addition to being aware of all internet traditions.

  42. 42.

    Billy K(hrushchev)

    October 8, 2008 at 10:34 am

    The only way the planet’s countries will recover is to become as cooperative towards bringing peaceful solutions to problems as they’ve been to assisting their finanicial institutions.

    Damn hippie communist.

  43. 43.

    Ben Richards

    October 8, 2008 at 10:36 am

    I think "Atanarjuat" is pig Latin for Gary Ruppert…

  44. 44.

    gbear

    October 8, 2008 at 10:36 am

    I’ll add my ‘what Dantes said’ to the chorus.

    I also want to add that the best laugh I’ve gotten this morning it this last paragraph in Michael Gerson’s WaPo column this morning entitled "The Town Hall Debate: Two McCain Successes".

    Tonight, McCain did what he could. But the party with executive power – the party more closely identified with banking and Wall Street – is being blamed for the current crisis. That is unfair to many Republicans. It is certainly unfair to McCain. But as John Kennedy observed, life isn’t fair.

    His preceding paragraphs were pure blather and totally wrong as usual, and most likely written before the town hall even started.

    gbear edit: the second biggest laugh I got this morning was [email protected]

  45. 45.

    Vincent

    October 8, 2008 at 10:38 am

    Nobama got schooled (and righteously so) by John McCain, and the gibbering wails of despair from the Ayers-enabling left are deafening in the extreme.

    Uh, where’s the despair? I don’t have any. You guys have any? I apologize if this is satire.

  46. 46.

    w vincentz

    October 8, 2008 at 10:40 am

    Hippie, yes.
    Communist, no.
    Pacifist, yes.
    Damned, no!

  47. 47.

    Josh Huaco

    October 8, 2008 at 10:46 am

    Nobama got schooled (and righteously so) by John McCain, and the gibbering wails of despair from the Ayers-enabling left are deafening in the extreme.

    Is October Schizophrenia Awareness Month?

  48. 48.

    gbear

    October 8, 2008 at 10:47 am

    Old Glory survived the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and went on to massively triumph over its enemies.

    But the ‘coalition of the willing’ that we were a part of in WW2 wasn’t fake like W’s.

  49. 49.

    SGEW

    October 8, 2008 at 11:06 am

    Pardon me, but it really deserves an entire repost:

    Atanarjuat

    Nobama got schooled (and righteously so) by John McCain, and the gibbering wails of despair from the Ayers-enabling left are deafening in the extreme.

    Remember this, you dishonorable cadre of America-hating traitors: Old Glory survived the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and went on to massively triumph over its enemies. In this regard, so, too, will our great nation and all true American patriots inevitably triumph over underhanded smears vomited against the future President John McCain and Vice President Sarah Palin by the traitorous left (i.e., Democrats and most Balloon Juice commentators).

    Country First.

    Sniff. This is glorious. "gibbering wails of depair," "dishonorable cadre," "underhanded smears vomited against the future President . . . ."

    Moar, please.

  50. 50.

    w vincentz

    October 8, 2008 at 11:09 am

    I hear ya, gBear.
    Note how the ONLY war the flag wrappers envelope themselves in isn’t the one where there were dominos falling, nor WMD’s (that are in my garage next to the lawnmower), nor perceived mushroom clouds on the horizon. Their entire premise is about the big one, WWII.
    Oh the glory!
    Hey, didn’t we end up with facists in the White House afterall? Sure was a success.
    At least we had drive-ins for a while, and very cool 57 Chevies.

  51. 51.

    Dennis - SGMM

    October 8, 2008 at 11:11 am

    Old Glory survived the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and went on to massively triumph over its enemies.

    Yes. and it took a Democratic president to do it – just like now.

  52. 52.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    October 8, 2008 at 11:24 am

    I’m so happy that I’ve been eating Hamburger Helper, macaroni and cheese, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and Top Ramen for eons so that I won’t feel the pain when it becomes an absolute necessity.

  53. 53.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    October 8, 2008 at 11:29 am

    (i.e., Democrats and most Balloon Juice commentators).

    Ummm, commentators?

    We’re "commenters" not commentators. I don’t get paid to do this, fuckwad!

  54. 54.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    October 8, 2008 at 11:30 am

    Yes. and it took a Democratic president to do it – just like now.

    Shhhh! That’s our secret weapon, we don’t want it to get out.

  55. 55.

    Phoenix Woman

    October 8, 2008 at 11:54 am

    SGEW: Yes. I can just hear the shrieks of "WO IST STEINER?!" in the background, can’t you?

  56. 56.

    TenguPhule

    October 8, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Daddy takes the kids on the weekend, goes to the ball park, the amusement park, let’s them stay up late watching movies.

    Mommy says "Go to bed, you have school tomorrow." and "Did you do your homework?"

    The Difference is that Daddy is using the bribes to play Hide the Sausage with the kiddies.

  57. 57.

    HyperIon

    October 8, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    again i post what SGlover wrote on the WaPo site a couple of weeks ago:

    Neither of the "choices" in our make-believe "republic" is going to accomplish much in the way of "change". There are simply too many institutional barriers, and thanks to the criminal negligence of the Bush/Cheney gangsters, there’s not going to be any money.
    …
    But you wanna know something? Deep down, very few Americans really want "change". What they really want is a guarantee that they can continue, in fact increase, consumption. The reality is that manic consumer capitalism is running up against its sustainability crisis. Getting beyond that — if we actually do — is necessarily going to be costly and painful. You would have no way of knowing this, not the slightest whisper of a glimmer of a scent of a hint, if you paid attention to the circus of American "democracy".
    …
    Our political institutions are no longer capable of even discussing external reality, let alone reacting to it.

    i like his take because it gets beyond chastising the candidates to chastising the voters. we created this mess. we will have to clean it up. and it also undercuts the "wait until after the election to see the real Obama/McCain" argument.

  58. 58.

    TenguPhule

    October 8, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    Old Glory survived the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor and went on to massively triumph over its enemies.

    And had Republicans been in charge then, we’d all be speaking German now.

  59. 59.

    Jon H

    October 8, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    "They are both full of shit. This economy is in a deepening recession, and the economy is going to get much worse.’

    While true, the fact is that the situation will progress whatever impotent yammerings they might make. They aren’t in control. Even Bush, Paulson, and Bernanke aren’t in control. Whatever they say today will probably be null and void tomorrow, overtaken by events.

    Worst-case scenarios:

    1) Obama makes a good, practical suggestion, and Bush makes sure Paulson and Bernanke do the opposite, lest Obama be handed a ‘win’.

    2) McCain makes some silly suggestion, and Bush makes Paulson and Bernanke enact it.

    So it doesn’t really bother me that they are talking platitudes right now. I’m at least confident that Obama’s advisors are monitoring the situation so that, when January comes around, they’ll be able to propose sound strategies for handling the economy they’re handed.

  60. 60.

    John S.

    October 8, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    Brokaw was a complete tool.

    He is the winner of my newly minted Paul Bunyan’s Axe Award for being a giant fucking tool ( I will whip up a clever graphic for Cole when I have some spare time).

    But there will be ponies? I like your optimism and hope you’re right.

    Honestly, I’m not terribly optimistic — I just think that the circumstances are entirely different. I think the actual magnitude of this crisis (in dollars and affected industries) is greater than the Depression, but I also think we are in a completely different place as a nation. I think our middle class is FAR stronger than it was in 1929, and that makes a big difference.

    We are much better equipped to handle these things than we were 80 years ago. I mean, look at the panic Orson Welles caused with War of the Worlds. That shit could never happen today because in a sense we are a more advanced people and our threshold for change and turmoil is much higher. I also think that we are going to maintain the Wile E. Coyote effect, whereby as a nation we will not fall after running off a cliff as long as we don’t look down.

    And not to sound cliche, but the world of 2008 is simply too big to fail (for now). In a strange sort of way, I would argue that I am a pessimist — that is, I am not terribly worried about the state of things at the moment because I fully anticipate that the are going to get MUCH worse and I don’t feel that we have quite reached that threshold.

  61. 61.

    Grumpy Code Monkey

    October 8, 2008 at 1:10 pm

    Example: Walter Mondale. He called Reagan out on his "I won’t raise your taxes" bullshit and lost 49 states as a result. (I’m sure there were other factors, but that’s what I remember—I was 16.)

    I think Mondale knew there was no way in hell he was going to beat Reagan, which freed him up to be honest about taxes. I think that also played a role in his picking Ferarro as his running mate; he had absolutely nothing to lose, so why not make a little history in the process?

  62. 62.

    Panurge

    October 8, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    You can get people to accept less if you can show them that what they’ll still have will be cooler than what we have now. If we finally get to have DFH World or FutureWorld or whatever (or both!), that’ll be worth a lot of loss in bulk for a lot of people. (Besides, the McMansions and SUVs are all built now.)

    Carter didn’t show us that; he showed us a permanent reduction in our standard of living, with no upside except for simple solvency (and a preserved environment). And then there was 1980 and the hostage crisis, and just enough of the American public decided they could call liberalism’s bluff–or decided that maybe Carter was wrong.

    Carter couldn’t spin the situation into something positive. To be honest, I think that at least in this matter Obama will succeed where Carter failed.

  63. 63.

    HyperIon

    October 8, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    Carter couldn’t spin the situation into something positive
    …
    in this matter Obama will succeed where Carter failed

    i don’t want spin.
    spin does NOT work.
    we can clap hard but that STILL won’t keep Tinker Bell alive.

    permanent reduction in our standard of living

    oh, noes, don’t say we have to pay the piper!
    the upside: all those family conversations around the dinner table we’ll be having now that no one can afford to eat out.

    update: i thought i had mastered the non-bold block quote. evidently not. will

    work?

  64. 64.

    Panurge

    October 9, 2008 at 8:29 am

    OK, then, use some other word than "spin." (Which obviously does work, or we wouldn’t be here now.) Whatever–the point is that Carter’s skills at persuasion and framing the issue weren’t the best and in retrospect probably did more harm than good, allowing Reagan to seize the initiative in 1980. Paying the piper is fine, but once the piper is paid, then what do we have to look forward to? You’ve got to show some upside if you want people to listen to you.

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  1. Balloon Juice » Blog Archive » WTF- $38 Billion More? says:
    October 8, 2008 at 5:16 pm

    […] How deep is the hole? As to the whole credit mess, there was a great analogy in the comments earlier: […]

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