Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

rich, arrogant assholes who equate luck with genius

Ah, the different things are different argument.

I didn’t have alien invasion on my 2023 BINGO card.

When you’re a Republican, they let you do it.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Polls are now a reliable indicator of what corporate Republicans want us to think.

Let’s finish the job.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing.

There is one struggling party in US right now, and it’s not the Democrats.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

“And when the Committee says to “report your income,” that could mean anything!

“Loving your country does not mean lying about it’s history.”

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!

Narcissists are always shocked to discover other people have agency.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

Republican also-rans: four mules fighting over a turnip.

Compromise? There is no middle ground between a firefighter and an arsonist.

You are here: Home / z-Retired Categories / Previous Site Maintenance / Open Thread

Reader Interactions

235Comments

  5. 5.

    Ned R.

    I’m just tired. This campaign feels like approaching the singularity point of a black hole — the closer you get, the longer it takes.

  6. 6.

    Krista

    Any coverage of the Canadian election where you folks are? I’m interested in hearing how it’s being angled to the U.S. audience. (That is, if it’s being mentioned at all.)

  7. 7.

    Comrade Incertus

    @Cruel Jest: If it’s an outlier, it’s not one by much. A bunch of other polls have it at 51-40, 51-41. We’re just talking about an extra point on the edges.

    My favorite part was from the unfavorables for McCain. Seems his choice of Palin and his attacks on Obama have taken a chunk out of his ass rather than Obama’s.

  9. 9.

    Comrade Darkness

    Any coverage of the Canadian election where you folks are? I’m interested in hearing how it’s being angled to the U.S. audience. (That is, if it’s being mentioned at all.)

    Canadians have elections?

    I thought they had a queen or something.

  10. 10.

    RoonieRoo, dontcha know

    I just want this to be done. While it is fun watching the implosion of the McCain-Palin campaign, there is only so much fun I can take.

  12. 12.

    robertdsc

    I’m just tired. This campaign feels like approaching the singularity point of a black hole—the closer you get, the longer it takes.

    Same.

  13. 13.

    Pastafarian

    Krista, haven’t seen a thing on the networks about the Canadian election. I’ve seen some BBC news coverage, but nothing really to speak of.

    BTW, PBS Frontline has The Choice 2008 on tonight, a profile of Obama and McCain.

  14. 14.

    Perry Como

    @Cruel Jest: Smears are kicking into high gear. A KC couple says a mysterious $2300 contribution to the Obama campaign appeared on their credit card. I never knew credit card thieves donated to political campaigns.

  15. 15.

    TheFountainHead

    I’m just tired. This campaign feels like approaching the singularity point of a black hole—the closer you get, the longer it takes.

    Same here, thank god work is sending me to Vegas for two weeks on Friday.

  16. 16.

    blogreeder

    I know this doesn’t have anything to do with Palin, this now being a Palin blog, but no one has yet commented on this:

    “Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn’t it?” the plumber asked, complaining that he was being taxed “more and more for fulfilling the American dream.”
    “It’s not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance for success too,” Obama responded. “My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody… I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

    See, closer to the election his true colors come out. The years with Ayers and Wright have not been wasted.

  17. 17.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Any coverage of the Canadian election where you folks are? I’m interested in hearing how it’s being angled to the U.S. audience. (That is, if it’s being mentioned at all.)

    I take it by your questioning that you all are having an election?

  19. 19.

    Soylent Green

    I’ll get Osama bin Laden, my friends. I’ll get him. I know how to get him. I’ll get him no matter what and I know how to do it.

  20. 20.

    Josh Huaco

    @blogreeder:

    This has been the Republican narrative for years, "Candidate X is going to take your money and give it to ni99ers welfare cheats and sp¡cs illegals."

  21. 21.

    Krista

    I take it by your questioning that you all are having an election?

    Yes. Yes we are. It was actually a lot of fun tonight, because I knew who I was going to vote for quite early on, and so was able to blissfully disregard much of the campaigning. So I voted this morning, and then after work, had a couple of beers, turned on CTV, and spent an hour making merciless fun of the physical appearances of most of the candidates.

    Good times.

  24. 24.

    DonnaInMichigan

    McCain/Palin = Bat Shit Crazy.

    You can’t defend bat shit crazy, nor can you fight bat shit crazy, nor can you fix bat shit crazy.

    It just stands as bat shit crazy.

  26. 26.

    blogreeder

    This has been the Republican narrative for years

    I’m sorry, you must have missed that it was an Obama narrative.

  27. 27.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Yes. Yes we are. It was actually a lot of fun tonight, because I knew who I was going to vote for quite early on, and so was able to blissfully disregard much of the campaigning.

    Wow.. sounds like quick election. Ours usually last more than four hours.

  28. 28.

    TheFountainHead

    See, closer to the election his true colors come out. The years with Ayers and Wright have not been wasted.

    You could interpret those remarks as exposing Obama’s true socialist colors (and simultaneously expose your ignorance on the subject of socialism) or you can see that quote as suggesting that the markets are not free, haven’t ever been, and have only become more rigged in the last eight years. The markets have been designed by the Republicans to benefit the already-haves and keep down the don’t haves. That’s not a free market, that’s a secret society.

  29. 29.

    Comrade Darkness

    The years with Ayers and Wright have not been wasted.

    Only on the intellectual side of the aisle would a former weather underground member and a fire and brimstone preacher both make certain to pass to their acolytes the all-important theories of tax policy.

    Please, do link to an analysis from a thinking on the right as to why the current opposite policy of taking money from everyone and giving it to the rich few is better. We’re at 2 trillion just in the last three weeks and accelerating.

  30. 30.

    Josh Huaco

    @blogreeder:
    No, the GOP narrative has been to stir up resentment amongst the middle and working classes, to get them to think that their "success" (borrowing from that twerp Sully) is being snatched away in order to subsidize a parasitic and dangerous brown-skinned underclass.

  32. 32.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    DNFTT Please. Let’s keep this thread open for Canadian election talk and salvation testimonies.

  33. 33.

    uila

    Ohmigod he said spread the wealth!

    He also said this:

    Obama said, "First off, you would get a 50% tax credit so you’d get a tax cut for your healthcare costs….. if your revenue is above 250 – then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true that from 250 up – from 250 – 300 or so, so for that additional amount, you’d go from 36 to 39%, which is what it was under Bill Clinton. And the reason why we’re doing that is because 95% of small businesses make less than 250. So what I want to do is give them a tax cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut. And so what we’re doing is, we are saying that folks who make more than 250 that that marginal amount above 250 – they’re gonna be taxed at a 39 instead of a 36% rate.”

    Personally, I’m tired of these plumb-lords living high off the hog

  34. 34.

    Krista

    Well, they only called the election on September 7th, so yes, the entire process has been rather quick. And I’d crawl over broken glass to vote for Bill Casey, so that decision was already made. Now I’m just watching TV looking at the results. Polling has only closed in NB, NS, PEI, NL, ON and QC, so it’ll be well into the morning before we know the full results from out west. But usually, by the time 25% of the results from ON and QC are in, you pretty much know how it’s going to turn out.

  35. 35.

    TheFountainHead

    DNFTT Please.

    Awwwwww.

    Sorry.

    Ever since myiq left there haven’t been any good trolls to tease, and it’s hard to resist.

  36. 36.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Personally, I’m tired of these plumb-lords living high off the hog

    I say we drain ’em of every plugged nickel they got.

  37. 37.

    KRK

    Am I supposed to be dismayed by the tax burdens of a plumber making more than $200,000 a year? Am I supposed to believe that this putative plumber is representative of his trade? Because the Obama/Biden website’s tax plan calculator says that even a single taxpayer with no dependents who makes up to $200,000 a year would get a (small) tax cut under Obama’s plan.

  38. 38.

    blogreeder

    Josh, that’s a neat link thingy you have there. I’ll have to figure out how to do that.

    No, the GOP narrative has been to stir up resentment in the middle and working classes, to get them to think that their "success" is being eaten away to subsidize a parasitic and dangerous brown-skinned underclass.

    You’re reading more into it than necessary. The fact that Obama says the plumbers success is somehow preventing others from achieving success is the sub-text of the quote.
    He therefore has the right to spread the plumber’s wealth around. Socialist thinking through and through. Notice Obama doesn’t offer his own wealth.

  39. 39.

    El Cid

    Let’s make the Republicans cry:

    It’s goodbye to the Reagan era as Feds buy stakes in banks

    By Kevin G. Hall | McClatchy Newspapers

    WASHINGTON — When the sun set on the nation’s capital Tuesday, it marked the end of one era in the nation’s political economy and the beginning of another. American taxpayers, the proverbial Joe Six-Pack and Jane Wine-Box of campaign lore, had become partial owners of the nation’s nine leading banks, with more to come.

    The Bush administration’s announcement that it would take ownership stakes in private banks marked a momentous shift away from a 30-year effort to get government out of business’s way and opened the door to a new era of government engagement with business in ways that are only starting to unfold.

    …what’s going on here is instead a progression of the mixed democracy-capitalism that’s been evolving at least since Franklin D. Roosevelt’s New Deal of the 1930s. The evolution this time is toward stronger government and more regulated markets, whereas since the start of the Reagan Revolution in 1981, it’s been the opposite.

    The Reaganite anti-government jihad has been canceled.

  41. 41.

    Soylent Green

    Some incisive advice to McCain by the Motor City Madman:

    Unleash Palin Power in the key battleground states of Florida, Ohio, Missouri and Pennsylvania. Socialists hate her with a passion. That means she’s good — real good.

  42. 42.

    TheFountainHead

    @Krista: What kind of turnout percentages do you see in Canada? I’m just curious if they are at all similar to the low ones we see in the US.

  43. 43.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    It’s goodbye to the Reagan era as Feds buy stakes in banks

    I’m crossing my fingers that they’ll append "The People’s" in front of the banks they recapitalize nationalize.

  44. 44.

    blogreeder

    Got any source for your quote bottomfeeder? Cause Google just shows it making the rounds of your ilk’s blogs, no actual news report.

    Watch one of the videos. I know, it’s Fox and you might get burned.

  45. 45.

    uila

    I say we drain ‘em of every plugged nickel they got.

    Agreed. Obama should make it his primary doody duty

  46. 46.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Watch one of the videos. I know, it’s Fox and you might get burned stoopid.

    Fixed.

  47. 47.

    TheFountainHead

    Watch one of the videos. I know, it’s Fox and you might get burned.

    Wow. "Watch one of the videos."

    Worst. Citation. Ever.

    (Sorry JSF, I tried)

    Update:
    HA! You did it first!

  49. 49.

    blogreeder

    Am I supposed to be dismayed by the tax burdens of a plumber making more than $200,000 a year?

    That is the WHOLE problem here in a nutshell. You think that the Plumber is in a different class than you. "He’s rich, so let’s take it all!" Don’t you want to be rich one day? You think you can’t because of this so-called CLASS. Wake up people! There is NO CLASS in America. That’s England or India you’re thinking about.

  50. 50.

    DougJ

    Chris Bowers had a very interesting post on the future. I’d like to know what others think of this prediction (for a post-November world in which Democrats have won a sweeping victory):

    Aimless, confused center-right punditry. With neoliberalism destroyed by nationalization, socially conservatives whites clearly losing their power as the center of the swing voting universe, and with the Republican Party pushed out of Congressional control for a long time, the center-right pundits that dominate cable nets, Sunday talk shows, and many large newspapers will be downright confused and aimless. The changes in David Brooks over the last two weeks are a good example of this. Mind you, they won’t embrace progressivism, as their formative experiences in the 70’s and 80’s will still be too powerful to them. Also, most of them will hold onto their jobs and prominence, even if we score a couple more Olberman’s and Maddow’s. But their world will have been shattered, and they just won’t know where to go for a while.

  53. 53.

    uila

    the proverbial Joe Six-Pack and Jane Wine-Box of campaign lore

    Jane Wine-Box, really? I think the wine box is actually coming back into fashion as an environmentally friendly alternative to the bottle.

    I therefore propose the preferred condescending term for low-income alcoholics be "Jane Jug-Wine".

  54. 54.

    TheFountainHead

    @uila: You are so clearly in the tank for Obama it’s no wonder McCain’s chances will be swirling around the bowl after you pull the lever!

  57. 57.

    blogreeder

    I wasn’t feeding the troll, I was belittling it.

    That is so profound. So like, I’m suppose to be upset that a troll with a juvenile handle is belittling me?

  59. 59.

    Krista

    Well, first I’ll start with the likely outcome, as I’m most comfortable with that. I am guessing that the Conservatives will win, but that they will not have enough seats to form a majority government. (If you’re not familiar with minority governments, basically it means that the party in power does not have enough seats in the House to pass legislation without the aid of one of the other parties.)

    As far as what is at stake…well…that would be everything. Harper is rather right-wing (he’s known colloquially as Bush Lite), and there are those who think that the only reason he’s been at all moderate is because he’s never had a majority government, and has had to play nice with others. A lot depends on you folks as well. If Harper wins and then Obama wins, Harper will have to swing centre in order to preserve U.S./Canada relations. Speaking personally, Harper has always shown a real contempt for the Maritimes, and I think that if he had a majority, our region would be royally fucked.

    Voter turnout is typically low-ish. I haven’t heard any stats yet on this year. I’m guessing it’ll be up a bit, as it was a gorgeous day outside. Then again, according to polling, a lot of people are looking at the major party leaders and thinking "I don’t want to vote for ANY of them", and that tends to result in a lot of people staying home.

  65. 65.

    Brian J

    Even if it is an outlier, I wasn’t expecting this. The McCain camp must be hyperventilating.

    Oh, I disagree. According to McCain, they’ve got Obama right where the want him. I assume that means at the top of the polls.

    By the way, is anyone watching the "Frontline" episode on PBS about McCain and Obama? It’s pretty interesting.

  66. 66.

    WarrenTerragon

    Hmm. Grumpy, grumpy, grumpy.

    We are three weeks away from an almost certain Democrat landslide and the end of the Republican nightmare we have been living in for eight years. We are almost certain to see the most profoundly important political event in our lifetimes, and maybe in the history of this country: The election of Barack Obama as president.

    Our opposition is disoriented, dysfunctional and discredited. It has no coherent message, no strong source of revenue to fight back with, no real chance to turn around the coming head-on trainwreck that is about to hit the Republican party.

    These are good times, times we could only have dreamed of just a short time ago. Our nemesis is self destructing with new fury almost every day, right on schedule.

    Have a drink. Put your feet up. Smile. This is what we have worked for. Stay focussed. Donate, volunteer, steady as she goes. We are almost there.

    Who said this yesterday? "Barack Obama may win and be a great president and save this country."

    William Kristol, in an NPR interview. And he was not being sarcastic, he was being dead serious. He said he really could not tell how the future was going to look at this juncture. He basically stated that he might have been dead wrong about all of this up to now.

    There ya go. They think we are going to win. We should too.

  69. 69.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Give in to your urges. Smack ‘em around a bit.

    No way, I’m trying to be the change I want to see in others.

  70. 70.

    Comrade Incertus

    @TheFountainHead: I wish I could truly claim it as mine. A guy I met while in grad school had, in a moment of teenage pique, gotten the word "fuck" tattooed on his neck. Everyone in my department referred to him as "fuckneck," even when he’d tried to have it changed to read "fun."

  71. 71.

    Krista

    @Krista: Do the conservatives steal elections there too?

    If so, they haven’t done a very good job of it now, have they? CTV agrees with me and is projecting another minority Conservative government.

    Oh, and we use old-fashioned paper ballots, and you use a pencil and mark an X next to the name of the person for whom you’re voting.

    Imagine.

  72. 72.

    blogreeder

    Of course, Obama doesn’t say what you say he did, so that might make you seem like a dishonest fuckneck, but it’s there for everyone to see.

    Man, is Obama windy. BUT he still said "Your success is preventing others from succeeding" The only way they can succeed is if I take it from you. Is that really how to get success? Here Comrade, I’m going to reach into John Cole’s pocket and give it to you. Are you more successful? Is that the definition of success?

  74. 74.

    DougJ

    You know, Krista, Canadians seem very different from Americans to me. Much more modest. Whenever I watch a hockey game and they talk to the guy who scored the winning goal he says something like "Pierre just put the puck right on my stick, I had no choice put to put it in the net." I can’t imagine an American saying that.

  75. 75.

    Josh Huaco

    Are you more successful? Is that the definition of success?

    You assume that the Freemarket (pbuh) rewards all hard work fairly. It doesn’t.

  76. 76.

    blogreeder

    Who said this yesterday? "Barack Obama may win and be a great president and save this country."

    I’m worried about the Carter effect. Obama could be pretty whimpy. Look at how windy he is.

  77. 77.

    uila

    Blo-Greeder, why don’t you just sit back and enjoy your impending tax cut already. You deserve it!

  79. 79.

    blogreeder

    You assume that the Freemarket (pbuh) rewards all hard work fairly. It doesn’t.

    Who said that? Life is not fair. There is no way you can make it fairer by taking someone’s hard earned money and giving it away.

  80. 80.

    kommrade jakevich

    @uila: Clearly thinking about the evil plumb-lords has plunged you into depression and left you a-float in a sea of despair. When I consider how they’ve wrenched the economy from our control and frozen the lines of credit, it sends me around the bend.

  81. 81.

    Krista

    @DougJ: Hard to say. We definitely have our share of insufferable pricks as well. :)

    As far as your hockey analogy, that attitude must be a natural result of all of that evil socialism with which we’re raised. No "I" in "team" and all that…

  83. 83.

    RareSanity

    BUT he still said "Your success is preventing others from succeeding"

    No. He didn’t.

    Did you read the transcript? Read the transcript, educate yourself and turn off Fox News for 5 minutes.

    Oh, and until you do find out what he actually said…STFU!

  87. 87.

    Josh Huaco

    There is no way you can make it fairer by taking someone’s hard earned money and giving it away.

    Agreed. The Randian Ubermenschen have been practicing class warfare for years, pushing down wages for average people and lowering taxes for rich people, with the effect of siphoning hard-earned wealth from the bottom and redistributing it to the top.

  88. 88.

    blogreeder

    Blo-Greeder, why don’t you just sit back and enjoy your impending tax cut already. You deserve it!

    You’re assuming that I’ll get one. Only because Obama said 95% percent of everyone will get one. Or did he say 95% percent of middle-CLASS? You don’t care. Get the rich!

  89. 89.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Actually, he didn’t say that. Didn’t think I’d check, did you? Silly dishonest fuckneck.

    It’s moistening it’s nipples with saliva right now, so turned on by your attention. So turned on..

  90. 90.

    Krista

    Hm. Evidently I’m not the only one who’d crawl over broken glass to vote for Bill Casey. He got over 68% of the votes in my riding. Popular fellow.

  91. 91.

    El Cid

    Uh oh. Limbaugh went full Racist Wingnut today.

    From Crooks & Liars:

    From the time of my birth, 57 years ago, to today, this country has grown and expanded, prosperity has opened its doors for more and more people around the world, not just people born in this country. We know the stories of Asians emigrating and running rings around people born in this country academically in California. We know all about the immigration, legal and illegal, to get into the country. We know that the standard of living has risen. We know that technological advancement is going along at light speed. And yet during this period of time, whether it be the last 57 years or be it the last 20 years, it seems that a majority of the black population has remained angry, frustrated, and behind. They’ve been left behind. They are acting like they’ve been left behind, and of course we’ve heard that this is because of racism, natural systemic institutional racism in America, that we are unfair, that this country is just horrible and rotten. You ever ask yourself how it is that people not even born here can come here and in a few short years begin prospering in school, their own business or what have you, yet people who are born in this country somehow have been raised to hate it, to think they’re still back in the days of slavery. I actually think, after studying all this ACORN stuff and reading what Stanley Kurtz has written about this, I actually believe that what has taken place here in addition to liberal Democrat legislation, such as the Great Society and the war on poverty, which a lot of people will now acknowledge really busted up the black family by the government taking the place of the husband and father, free to roam around and bear no responsibility. The mother remained the mother, she got the financial assistance from this legislation, from the federal government. The federal government became the father. The father didn’t have to hang around in order for the kids to be okay, depending on how you define okay. But as you study more and more of this ACORN stuff, you find that it has been part of an entire movement that has been going on for two, maybe three decades, right under our noses. We thought that it was just liberal welfare policies and all that that kept blacks from progressing while other minorities grew and prospered, but no, it is these wackos from Bill Ayers to Jeremiah Wright to other anti-American Afrocentric black liberation theologists with ACORN, and Barack Obama is smack dab in the middle of it, they have been training young black kids to hate, hate, hate this country, and they trained their parents before that to hate, hate, hate this country. It was a movement. It was a Bill Ayers, anti-capitalist, anti-American educational movement. ACORN is how it was implemented, right under our noses. They’re doing far more, folks, than just cheating when it comes to elections and registration. They are in deep in this mortgage crisis. ACORN and Obama and Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, the Democrat Party, have their fingerprints all over the subprime mortgage crisis. The whole concept of affordable housing was people that can’t afford a mortgage are going to get one, because America is unfair. It has been a movement, it has been a religion, and Obama and Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers were all up to their big ears in it.

    Now, remember — what’s the evidence for the "hate" in all the "hate this country"?

    Yep. That’s right.

    You see, black people wanting to vote for Obama & the Democrats means they hate this country.

    Because the only people who love America are white people who vote Republican. Obviously.

    Again — Nobody, but nobody, hates America like Republicans hate America.

  92. 92.

    WarrenTerragon

    You’re assuming that I’ll get one.

    Yes, 95% of second rate spoof concern trolls will get a tax cut under our plan.

    Relax, we got your six.

  93. 93.

    Josh Huaco

    It’s moistening it’s nipples with saliva right now, so turned on by your attention. So turned on..

    It puts the wetsuits on itself.

  94. 94.

    blogreeder

    ..with the effect of siphoning hard-earned wealth from the bottom and redistributing it to the top

    Josh, you’re a genius! All the wealth is at the Bottom. How did I not know that?! Oh, but wait… won’t they be getting the big tax bite? Oh man, then they’ll be poor again. Life just isn’t fair.

  95. 95.

    SamFromUtah

    @El Cid: Limbaugh went full Racist Wingnut today.

    Wotta fuckneck. (If I may.)

    That $500M contract for him was quite a bargain, don’t you think?

  98. 98.

    WarrenTerragon

    Rush was up to his usual no good

    Yep, he has been doing the same tired act every day for years and years and years.

    And here we are, about to give his homies the worst ass whipping in modern American political history.

    So who cares what the fat pig says today?

  99. 99.

    kommrade jakevich

    @Brian J: Dude. What controversy?

    Holee Fuck! Obama was in NYC when some shit went down at JFK! We must connect the dots to find the hidden message so we can rescue Queen Palin from Planet Reason&Logic. Onward brave Kheebored Warryurz!!

    OK. In the past day the fReichtards have given us 10 year olds having consensual sex, and anti-apartheid = terrorist. Next we’ll learn that men who have only female children are cursed by the Baby Jesus.

    The dumb fuckers cease to amuse me.

  100. 100.

    TheFountainHead

    I’m worried about the Carter effect. Obama could be pretty whimpy. Look at how windy he is.

    Yeah, all that wind just blew those 75,000 people into that stadium…

  101. 101.

    El Cid

    @WarrenTerragon:

    What? You want me to miss out on the full wingnut collapse and the misery of Rush Limbaugh as though I have something better to do?

    No way in hell am I missing this. I’ve stacked up pairs of binoculars all through the house so I can keep watch for yet more wheels falling off the Republican wagon.

    This is some of the most rewarding, wholesome entertainment I have had in my entire life in this last 30 years of Reaganite a**holes.

  103. 103.

    Josh Huaco

    All the wealth is at the Bottom.

    Well, ideally it should be because it’s the bottom that actually does the work and makes this country run. But conservatives have structured the economy and tax code to transfer the wealth that the vast majority at the bottom create to a few at the top.

    Life just isn’t fair.

    Shorter blogreeder: Eat cake, bitches!

  104. 104.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    This is some of the most rewarding, wholesome entertainment I have had in my entire life

    With the added bonus that ya really get to see what folks are made out of when they start losing. And Republicans are showing themselves to have zero class.

  105. 105.

    blogreeder

    Did you read the transcript? Read the transcript, educate yourself and turn off Fox News for 5 minutes.

    Sorry, I was paraphrasing. You guys are so literal.
    I did see it. That’s why I said he’s windy.
    But read the transcript again. Swirl it around and you’ll see that he’s taking the plumbers success as a reason other’s aren’t as successful. Plus there’s And I do believe for folks like me who have worked hard, but frankly also been lucky. See, hard work is luck. Take it from the bastards and just give it to someone else.

  107. 107.

    TheFountainHead

    Sorry, I was paraphrasing. You guys are so literal.
    I did see it. That’s why I said he’s windy.
    But read the transcript again. Swirl it around and you’ll see that he’s taking the plumbers success as a reason other’s aren’t as successful. Plus there’s And I do believe for folks like me who have worked hard, but frankly also been lucky. See, hard work is luck. Take it from the bastards and just give it to someone else.

    Shorter blogreeder: Goddamnit, guys! I mean it! I swear!!! LISTEN TO ME!!

  108. 108.

    WarrenTerragon

    Yes, Rush is a hoot, but we have already been to this rodeo. He did eight years of the same schtick when Clinton was elected. He just dusts off the old copy and replaces Clinton with Obama and reads it all over again.

    I don’t find him entertaining. Entertaining is listening to Gould play Bach, or Ellington’s orchestra playing Ko-Ko. Rush is more like listening to a dog drink out of the toilet.

  109. 109.

    Comrade Stuck

    It has been a movement, it has been a religion, and Obama and Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers were all up to their big ears in it.

    That’s dangerous territory for a guy with a "big" boil on his ass. Guys and gals like Limbaugh are just getting warmed up. There’s going to be a whole new cottage industry for wingnut codewords when Obama becomes President. That will be their answer for what the "conservative movement " will need to regenerate itself. They will have to do better than "Big Ears" though, that’s pretty cheesy even by their pea brain standards. I’m sure Frank luntz and other wingnut word smiths will be locked away in the bowels of AEI or The Heritage Foundation plotting their Orwellian comeback. Meanwhile, Rush will be giving us the "Joe Sixpack" version of "How to say the nigger has got to go" in code that only they think is sly.

  110. 110.

    SamFromUtah

    @Just Some Fuckhead: With the added bonus that ya really get to see what folks are made out of when they start losing.

    You also get to see what they’re made of when they’re in power. In this crowd’s case, it’s the same thing – demanding more power and screaming about how the liberals are taking everything away.

    I guess there was one difference – the eliminationist crap they spewed when they were on top was more smug and sneering instead of blood-flecked-foam hysterical.

    And goddammit, they’re still in power.

  112. 112.

    bad dad

    FREEP THIS POLL!

    http://www.votecustard.com/

    Culver’s – a burger / custard chain in the upper midwest here has an online parody poll with the two candidates portrayed as custard sundaes. It’s good for a few minutes of amusement and is easily freepable, given that all you need to do is press on the arrow on the ballot lever to keep voting.

  113. 113.

    The Moar You Know

    Wake up people! There is NO CLASS in America. That’s England or India you’re thinking about.

    Wow, what an obedient little tool you are. The Waltons, Buffetts, and Gates’ of America would happily throw you feet first into a wood chipper, with no regard for the conseqences (since there aren’t any when you’re that wealthy) if they thought your liver juices would lube one of their solid-gold Hummers better than motor oil. And you say there’s no class. There is. There are the ultra-wealthy, and there’s the rest of us. Including you.

    You’re expendable to such people, the real upper class of America. They could care less if you live or die. They don’t care who is president; they buy and sell presidents. They’re not Democrat or Republican – you don’t need party labels when you have so much money that you can buy and sell a human being with that person’s willing consent. They could murder you and your entire family for five minutes worth of laughs and never see the inside of a courtroom.

    Yet you think that somehow these people are your friends, and that asking them to pay a tiny percentage of the wealth they’ve managed to squeeze out of the society they’ve benefited so much from is immoral and unjust.

    There is one word for you: collaborator. And you’ll someday meet the fate that all of that vile ilk do.

  114. 114.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Yes, Rush is a hoot, but we have already been to this rodeo.

    I think what we’ve had here is a little social concern in politics. The media has been very desirous that a black candidate do well. There is a little hope invested in Obama, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of the Democrats that he didn’t deserve.

  115. 115.

    Calouste

    @El Cid:

    That would be too extreme even for parties like the British National Party, Le Front National and Die Republikaner. Not that they necessarily disagree with it, just that they would end up in court if they repeated that speech in public.

    Someone better arrange a public speaking engagement for Limbaugh in Europe. Tell him he doesn’t have to worry about the return flight, or accommodation beyond the first few nights.

  116. 116.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    El Cid, are you still nursing a grudge over the Edwards Fanboi thing? Get over here and let’s hug it all out.

  117. 117.

    WarrenTerragon

    There is a little hope invested in Obama, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of the Democrats that he didn’t deserve.

    Wow, you never know what complete nonsense you are going to read in here. Obama is the best candidate, and has run the best campaign, of any politician we have seen in our lifetimes, bar none.

    What you are talking about, I have no idea, but I am sure you will be along soon to explain why I should.

  118. 118.

    Punchy

    Obama’s taxing plumbers now? Those poor guys who hold that chalked string and pluck it on the panel of wood? Didn’t think they made enough to be taxed….

  119. 119.

    blogreeder

    Well, ideally it should be because it’s the bottom that actually does the work and makes this country run. But conservatives have structured the economy and tax code to transfer that wealth to the top.

    Wow Josh, you are sounding so Marxist. Here take a look at this.
    (I hope the link works, it’s not behaving in the preview) The rich do pay most of the taxes anyway.

  120. 120.

    jcricket

    The Waltons, Buffetts, and Gates’ of America

    Uh, maybe #1, but not #2 and probably not #3 in your list there chump. Both Buffet and Gates have been fairly magnanimous. Both are on the "correct" side of the estate tax debate (i.e. it should exist). Gates is giving enormously to the most poor around the world. And Buffet has even drawn attention to how the tax code gives enormous breaks to the rich, making their effective tax rate lower than the average person.

    I hardly think Buffet or Gates is who you want to use as an example of the rich happily feeding people into a wood chipper.

    The Bush Family, Waltons, Scaife, Adelson, Rev. Moon – those are the wood chipper folks. They probably even own stock in wood chippers designed for human consumption.

  123. 123.

    jcricket

    The rich do pay most of the taxes anyway.

    The rich pay "most" of the tax dollars, but "less" as a percent of their income than anyone in the bottom 95%. They also pay "less" than their "share" of the income earned in America. That’s what matters. Not the dollar figure, but the share and percentages.

    The rich have it twice as easy in this country as anywhere else, and the rest of us bear the brunt of the misguided tax policy that says the best thing is to continually cut taxes for the uber rich at the expense of everyone else (or, just run deficits forever and it’ll all work out).

  124. 124.

    Conservatively Liberal

    I see that borgreefer is on a roll today, or so they think. I never knew the difference between over-taxed and outright socialism was only 3%. You learn something new every day. Either borgreefer makes over $250,000 or they are just dumb.

    My vote is for the latter.

    What is this place called Canada I keep hearing about? Rumor is that they have a lot of hockey moms. Maybe they would like to take Palin off of our hands? Maybe toss in Alaska to sweeten the deal?

    Naah. Nobody would be stupid enough to accept that offer.

  126. 126.

    Comrade Darkness

    Box wine

    As a board certified, arugula-growing food elitist, I’ll second the coming era of the mid-level box wine. The $14 dollar a box stuff is just fine for kir or white wine aperol, and it’s really easy to reach into the fridge for a quick half cup of it to de-glaze a pan.

    And screw tops. Dang, give me more screw tops. I hate corks. Anything that gets between me and the next bottle’s gotta go.

  127. 127.

    WarrenTerragon

    The rich do pay most of the taxes anyway.

    Yes, that’s why we call it a Progressive Tax scheme. That’s the way it is supposed to work, when the wealth is concentrated in the very few.

    The other two alternatives are, unless I missed something, a Regressive Tax, or a Flat Tax. Until we can come up with a political future for one of those, we are going to have the one we have now.

    Financial Wealth
    Top 1 percent, Next 19 percent, Bottom 80 percent
    1983 42.9% 48.4% 8.7%
    1989 46.9% 46.5% 6.6%
    1992 45.6% 46.7% 7.7%
    1995 47.2% 45.9% 7.0%
    1998 47.3% 43.6% 9.1%
    2001 39.7% 51.5% 8.8%

  129. 129.

    El Cid

    The rich should pay their fair share of taxes, if not more — after all, do they want a decent country & economy?

    Or do they want to count a few more bucks as their country collapses into a 3rd world sh*t hole?

    You get the country & the economy you pay for.

    If you don’t like that, then get the hell out of the country, and take your tens or hundreds of millions to Somalia or the middle of the Democratic Republic of Congo or to Waziristan where you don’t have to worry about funding a strong central government.

  130. 130.

    blogreeder

    Wow, what an obedient little tool you are. The Waltons, Buffetts, and Gates’ of America would happily throw you feet first into a wood chipper, with no regard for the conseqences

    Now if you look at the biographies of all these people you will see that they were just like us at one time. If there is a class structure in this country, how did they break into the upper echelon?

    And you say there’s no class. There is. There are the ultra-wealthy, and there’s the rest of us. Including you.

    I disagree. We can get there with hard work.

    There is one word for you: collaborator. And you’ll someday meet the fate that all of that vile ilk do.

    Wow, that’s rich. Oops, I mean what a dangerous analogy. Are you implying that we’re at War with the Ultra-Rich? You’ll be manning the guillotine?

  132. 132.

    El Cid

    We’re at war with the ultra-rich in the same way parents are ‘at war’ with toddlers — in the best of times it can be an incredibly rewarding experience, but left to their own devices suddenly you have the entire kitchen being repainted from colors found in the garage.

  133. 133.

    WarrenTerragon

    Are you implying that we’re at War with the Ultra-Rich?

    They declared war on us. It would be foolish not to fight back. Have you been reading the paper lately?

    Oh, you’re a spoof. Sorry, I forgot.

  134. 134.

    Fulcanelli

    @blogreeder:

    Who said that? Life is not fair. There is no way you can make it fairer by taking someone’s hard earned money and giving it away.

    Consern troll haz me conscernd… Oh dear.

    Shouldn’t you be telling this to the Republicans who have you bent over?

    Nihilist gooper trollz. Yawn.

  135. 135.

    blogreeder

    The rich pay "most" of the tax dollars, but "less" as a percent of their income than anyone in the bottom 95%. They also pay "less" than their "share" of the income earned in America. That’s what matters. Not the dollar figure, but the share and percentages.

    How much "more" should the rich pay? 100 percent of the tax dollars?

  136. 136.

    Ash Can

    @bad dad: Thanks for the link. Culver’s is 24-karat win.

    Now I’m jonesing for a butterburger with cheese…

    Also made of win: Nicole’s cake blog (I don’t dare show my son Bottle Rocket that Lego cake) and this remark: Rush is more like listening to a dog drink out of the toilet.

    And I still can’t believe the Progressive Conservatives imploded in the ’90s. Of course, a name like that just screams unsustainability, now doesn’t it?

  137. 137.

    Comrade Darkness

    You get the country & the economy you pay for.

    Yes, and isn’t it touching how our children and grandchildren are going to be paying for ours?

    Someone’s paying for it. At another 600 billion in the hole already this year, it certainly ain’t us.

    So, I propose a toast: To the promise of the sweaty labors of our hardworking future offspring that we are currently bartering to the Chinese and Russian banks to prop up the wealthy f*cks who ran our financial system into the ground. Hear! Hear!

  138. 138.

    TheFountainHead

    Yes, and isn’t it touching how our children and grandchildren are going to be paying for ours?
    Someone’s paying for it. At another 600 billion in the hole already this year, it certainly ain’t us.
    So, I propose a toast: To the promise of the sweaty labors of our hardworking future offspring that we are currently bartering to the Chinese and Russian banks to prop up the wealthy f*cks who ran our financial system into the ground. Hear! Hear!

    And my parents wonder why I never call…

  139. 139.

    gwangung

    I hardly think Buffet or Gates is who you want to use as an example of the rich happily feeding people into a wood chipper.

    Yeah, both Gates and Buffett know pretty damn well there’s a class system in this society. In fact, Gates has consistently given to a fairly progressive agenda since before Microsoft was a behemoth (and I believe Gates is on record as being concerned that not enough wealth is circulating on the bottom end of things—can’t buy software if they can’t survive).

  141. 141.

    Fulcanelli

    @blogreeder:

    If there is a class structure in this country, how did they break into the upper echelon?

    You don’t "break" in, you buy your way in. Then like good lil’ goopers you pull the ladder up after you to thin out the herd. That’s how it’s done.

    Someone with more patience than I have has to beat this silly fuck over the head with the definition of capital-based income versus labor-based income and how the second one never wins the cookie.

  142. 142.

    WarrenTerragon

    How much "more" should the rich pay? 100 percent of the tax dollars?

    Unless you eliminate sales taxes, that can never happen.

    But, if you come up with a workable plan that funds cities, towns, returns revenue to service municipal bond debt, things like that… let us know.

  145. 145.

    blogreeder

    Calouste, great link the the Gates foundation. Now the Gates would never have been able to do that without money. They used their money. They supported their charities. They didn’t force a plumber to hand it over.

  146. 146.

    Conservatively Liberal

    We’re at war with the ultra-rich in the same way parents are ‘at war’ with toddlers—in the best of times it can be an incredibly rewarding experience, but left to their own devices suddenly you have the entire kitchen being repainted from colors found in the garage back of their overfilled diapers.

    Fix’d.

  147. 147.

    Jeff

    Buffett has specifically come out for higher taxes on the rich because he sees his admin is in a higher tax bracket than he is and he believes that yes, it is unfair.

  148. 148.

    Comrade Darkness

    can’t buy software if they can’t survive).

    And if you’re illiterate, you don’t have much use for MS Word.

    The Gates mindset strikes me as a straight-out geek one. A lot of the world’s most basic problems are stupidly simple and require very little money to start solving. The bed net issue, for example. Costs $10 ea, turns out you only need about 40% installed base to start preventing malaria in an entire village. (the nets are doped with permethrin so they are giant mosquito traps. we used one last year in india, nice to know when you get up to pee at 4am that were there any mosquitos in the room, they have dropped dead already).

    If you are a successful business person, and a techie geek, this kind of thing is maddening. Why the heck can’t these simple problems be solved? Anyway, that’s my take with his ilk. The "I solve ten problems like this a day and have for twenty years how can this one stand in my way" mentality.

  149. 149.

    Martin

    I’m convinced that when Cole opens up one of these ‘got nuthin’ open threads, that he pays someone to troll just to keep everyone busy. It’s like hiring someone to walk the dog when you go on vacation.

  150. 150.

    blogreeder

    But, if you come up with a workable plan that funds cities, towns, returns revenue to service municipal bond debt, things like that… let us know.

    The current system looks good enough. I’m just trying to understand how much more of the tax burden do you think the top 1 percent of the earners should cover?

  151. 151.

    TheFountainHead

    They didn’t force a plumber to hand it over.

    No, in Gates’ case just signed a deal with IBM and then bought up every single competitor that raised its head with hard work.

  152. 152.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    And my parents wonder why I never call…

    Ma emailed me this evening with the terse "What do you think of Sarah Palin?" We don’t discuss politics at all because we don’t agree on anything and it usually gets nasty pretty quick so I was a little surprised at her question, thinking maybe she wanted to confess some reservations about Palin. Ma was her local platoon leader for Huck’s Army and did two weeks’ crying duty when he suspended his campaign. I told her back then Huckabee couldn’t win the Republican nomination because he wasn’t hateful enough and now my ego was whispering, she sees Palin and wants to tell you she knows what you were talking about.. So I was thinking how I could reply, ya know, where to fucking start with this cretinous excuse for a Christian without offending my very fundamental Baptist Ma. And how to put it in terms that she wouldn’t find sexist (Ma is one of those typical ditzy old women who can read into anything.) So I thought about it for a few minutes and emailed back, "Rightwing whackjob, you?"

    And she replied, "I like her."

  153. 153.

    WarrenTerragon

    I’m just trying to understand how much more of the tax burden do you think the top 1 percent of the earners should cover?

    You mean, the owners of a third of the wealth?

    You tell me. Make me an offer.

  154. 154.

    blogreeder

    No, in Gates’ case just signed a deal with IBM and then bought up every single competitor that raised its head with hard work.

    That was true at one time but the justice department looked into that. Apple is now pretty competetive so it’s not as important as it once was.

  155. 155.

    Comrade Darkness

    I’m self employed, which puts me in a 45% federal tax bracket (paying both sides of soc sec and not getting full breaks for health ins.). Add on property tax and sales tax and I pay 60% of my income in taxes. If I can do that and still chase after the next buck of business, then anyone can.

  156. 156.

    Conservatively Liberal

    What I find interesting is that McPalin supporters like borgreefer try to convince us how bad Obama is and actually think that they might influence the conversation here. I guess if you are going to be delusional about your candidate then you might as well go for broke.

  157. 157.

    Comrade Nixon Hailfire Palin

    I’m convinced that when Cole opens up one of these ‘got nuthin’ open threads, that he pays someone to troll just to keep everyone busy. It’s like hiring someone to walk the dog when you go on vacation.

    Not enough traffic on your blog? TrollTemps can help!

  158. 158.

    The Moar You Know

    Class warfare, bagfeeder. It’s coming. You don’t even know what "the angry left" is. Yet.

  159. 159.

    Jeff

    Is there a way to turn off the recent comments update, it seems to really slow down the refresh. Or is it just me?

  160. 160.

    TheFountainHead

    "Rightwing whackjob, you?"
    And she replied, "I like her."

    I have the same problem with my Uncle. He’s a true wingnut. Thankfully my father is an unrepentant DFH and my mother’s in the teacher’s union, so I don’t have to catch much flack (my mother wanted Hillary and my Dad wanted Biden) from that front. But my Uncle. The man e-mails me links to Malkin. And not to mock her.

  161. 161.

    Comrade Jake

    @Conservatively Liberal:

    What I find interesting is that McPalin supporters like borgreefer try to convince us how bad Obama is and actually think that they might influence the conversation here.

    I seriously doubt that’s the goal of borgreefer. If it is, he’s about as dumb as a post. Usually these folks are just looking to argue, and most of us are happy to oblige the stupid.

  162. 162.

    The Moar You Know

    That was true at one time but the justice department looked into that.

    Proof: Justice can be bought. You heard it right from bagshitter himself.

  163. 163.

    blogreeder

    You mean, the owners of a third of the wealth?

    I take that to mean they should pay all of it. So, what kind of country would this be if the Top 1 percent paid all the taxes? What would the politcians run on? Wouldn’t the ultra-rich really be in charge? I mean, if they paid all the taxes they would surely get all the benefits.

  164. 164.

    Comrade Darkness

    That was true at one time but the justice department looked into that.

    That was not what the DoJ looked into. At all. You’re overreaching badly. Try wikipedia, it is your friend.

    I only have stats for the second half of the nineties, but during that time MS bought up 60 companies comprising 300+ cutting-edge products/projects and of all of those only one survived to become a MS product. That doesn’t count the small companies that were brain drained when MS bought out their key s/w engineer with a million dollar bonus. Killing potential competition in the womb has always been a key part of their business model. To the point where during the dot com era, looking like a threat to MS in order to force a buy out by them was in itself its own business model.

    It’s totally legal, hence the DoJ would not care. But it stifles the heck out of industry innovation. But s/w being what it is, and the rest of the world not so keen to have their key systems running on something they can’t see inside of, open source is making MS eat their lunch. Slowly but surely. Couldn’t happen to a nicer company.

  165. 165.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    I have the same problem with my Uncle. He’s a true wingnut. Thankfully my father is an unrepentant DFH and my mother’s in the teacher’s union, so I don’t have to catch much flack (my mother wanted Hillary and my Dad wanted Biden) from that front. But my Uncle. The man e-mails me links to Malkin. And not to mock her.

    I’m the only DFH in my family, both sides. So I give ’em the hell they can’t get anywhere else.

  167. 167.

    TheFountainHead

    I’m the only DFH in my family, both sides. So I give ‘em the hell they can’t get anywhere else.

    Heh. That’s gotta make you think twice about having kids…

  168. 168.

    Fulcanelli

    @blogreeder: It’s not just about the tax rate, fool. Eliminate the loopholes, write-offs and all the other bs and the tax revenue problem will probably fix itself, or at least be moving in the right direction.

    Shit, think of the money the Federal Gov’t would save just by shrinking the IRS.

    Next up, when the wealthy or big business get a tax break or other incentive as part of deal to invest or build or hire, make sure they fucking do it.

    Here in RI the Legislature had to enact a law to monitor and enforce the compliance of business to uphold their end of the deal for all the tax breaks they’ve been getting for years and years.

    Seems they forgot.

  169. 169.

    WarrenTerragon

    I take that to mean they should pay all of it.

    Did you see the curly symbol at the end of my sentence? We call that a question mark. It means that I was asking you a question.

    What percentage of the tax should be paid by those who have a third of the wealth?

    Did you see the part that said "You tell me." See, that means, you tell me. Make an offer.

    Stop the concern troll posturing, and take an actual position. What tax burden is fairly borne by that portion of the wealth?

  171. 171.

    tBone

    Two weeks before the election and the best the right can do is send in a third-rate farm team troll like blogreeder? There may be something to that Peak Wingnut theory after all.

  172. 172.

    blogreeder

    I seriously doubt that’s the goal of borgreefer. If it is, he’s about as dumb as a post. Usually these folks are just looking to argue, and most of us are happy to oblige the stupid.

    I’m sorry to eavesdrop but I’m not trying to convince anyone. This is a snarky blog. Nothing really profound going on. It’s really amazing how some of you guys go whacko when someone doesn’t toe the line.

  173. 173.

    Martin

    I take that to mean they should pay all of it.

    FAIL.

    Take it to mean they should be taxed enough that the share of the country they own goes down. They don’t need to lose money necessarily, but the rest of the country should make up ground. I know wingnuts think that violates some mathematical principle, so feel free to take a few months to figure it out.

  175. 175.

    Conservatively Liberal

    I’m self employed, which puts me in a 45% federal tax bracket (paying both sides of soc sec and not getting full breaks for health ins.). Add on property tax and sales tax and I pay 60% of my income in taxes. If I can do that and still chase after the next buck of business, then anyone can.

    Now that is an American attitude I can agree with. As long as I can make a comfortable living and put a little bit away, I am more than happy to pay taxes out of the rest (and still have money left after that). This country gives us a chance to do this and we should be happy to pay back into the system so others in the future can enjoy what we have.

    The people who don’t care that the rich get richer tend to forget that the amount of wealth we have at any given time is finite, and if most of it is in the hands of the wealthy few then that leaves less to power the economy. Money is the lubricant and the pump is running dry. Our credit markets have been complicit in hiding this fact by providing an illusion of wealth with the easy credit. Now that almost everyone that is not rich is in debt up to their ears, the markets are panicking because they know the jig is up. Giving more loans to people deeply in debt is not going to prime the pump.

    This is the end of the Grand Illusion and the beginning of Actual Reality. People are broke and dumping cash into the banks for cheap and easy credit is not going to fix it.

  176. 176.

    Jeff

    Who has said they should pay all taxes, just an equal percentage of their income. I’ll give you a better example, put all levels of income under the AMT. If the AMT is supposed to get a minimum tax amount from the rich on their earnings, why does the tax only affect those earning incomes between 100k and 500k. Why are the effective tax rates of the rich higher than the super rich.

  177. 177.

    blogreeder

    Stop the concern troll posturing, and take an actual position. What tax burden is fairly borne by that portion of the wealth?

    I already answered that in comment 150. The current system seems pretty progressive for you guys.

    Add on property tax and sales tax and I pay 60% of my income in taxes. If I can do that and still chase after the next buck of business, then anyone can.

    How foolish of you to stay a democrat.

  178. 178.

    boonagain

    One question:

    Shouldn’t these weak-ass trolls be out canvassing or something for Johnny Drama and Bible Spice instead of bothering posters here?

    I’m just saying that maybe they could do something more useful than try to scare all of us about paying a few more % of taxes.

    Do they hate America that much?

  179. 179.

    Comrade Darkness

    I mean, if they paid all the taxes they would surely get all the benefits.

    I just figured it out. You’re Martha Stewart, right? Cuz you’re sound like the blue-light-special troll.

    The pithy answer would be: "And they don’t now?" For the shared defense of the nation, who benefits more? Mrs. McCain with her 100 million dollars of wealth and 8 houses, or j6p who has paid down 4k of the 120k principal on his mortgage? Whose life changes utterly when the unruly mobs decide that if the government won’t provide justice that they will, and who doesn’t even notice until the steelers game is preempted?

    The only line you need toe here is the factually clued in one with an earnest effort at intellectual honesty.

  180. 180.

    Zifnab25

    So, what kind of country would this be if the Top 1 percent paid all the taxes? What would the politcians run on? Wouldn’t the ultra-rich really be in charge? I mean, if they paid all the taxes they would surely get all the benefits.

    I don’t know. Let’s ask the good folks on Wall Street.

    "Hey! Wall Street Guys! How is that whole ‘paying a larger gross dollar amount in taxes’ thing working out for you? You got $700 billion in government loans to save your sorry asses? That sounds like a pretty sweet deal!"

    Gee, now lets count the number of US Senators who are millionaires – ie "ultra rich". As of 2003, the count was approximately 40. Sounds like the "ultra rich" have a surprisingly large say in government.

    And I’m sure we could have the argument over who benefits the most from the trillions of dollars a year spent on national security – John "I can’t count the number of homes I own" McCain or Joe "I live out of a dumpster on thes treet" Dirt – but it would ultimately boil down to a great deal of bullshit about how rich people have it really rough and poor people are just lucky not to be from North Korea. So I’ll just concede you that last point.

  181. 181.

    WarrenTerragon

    You still won’t answer a simple question. I posted a simple wealth distribution chart. That 1% you blather about controls about 40% of the wealth.

    What percentage of the tax burden should be supported by that 40% of the wealth?

    Start there, and build a tax scheme you think is fair, and let’s run it up the old flagpole and see what we have.

    Meanwhile, you are just wasting everyone’s time.

  182. 182.

    Will Hunting

    Blogreeder – At least when I dusted off "Saul" the other night I was able to work in some funny "Heartland" riffs. I even got Thyme Zone to challenge me to a bet when I said I looked forward to four years of McCain and eight years of Palin.

    The other commenters are running circles around you right now. Give it up already… You got owned on the transcript. Slink off, lick your wounds and come back with a new line of attack.

  183. 183.

    bago

    howabout what it was back when we were running surpluses ? So another 3 percent or so. What kind of a cold hearted bastard wouldn’t chip in another 3percent to keep his country solvent ?

  184. 184.

    Martin

    The current system seems pretty progressive for you guys.

    So Steve Jobs who earns $1 in salary and takes everything else as cap gains taxed at 15% – that’s progressive?

    Since I’m getting the same benefits as Bill Gates, I look forward to the State Department bringing the Premiere of China to my house on the way to meeting the President.

  185. 185.

    blogreeder

    The people who don’t care that the rich get richer tend to forget that the amount of wealth we have at any given time is finite, and if most of it is in the hands of the wealthy few then that leaves less to power the economy

    Clearly someone forgot to take economics 101. Although I see you left yourself an out with at any given time. What period of time is that? A year? A month? A day? Wealth is not finite. Have you not noticed the stock market? The other day it lost trillions. Where did it go if wealth is finite? Where do you think the wealthy few keep their money? In their mattress? Aren’t socks and bonds part of the economy? Even if they just left it in the bank, wouldn’t that be available for loans?

  186. 186.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    Stop the concern troll posturing, and take an actual position. What tax burden is fairly borne by that portion of the wealth?

    Well, none, you see, because rich people just hire others to do their driving and their shopping and such, so they use none of the infrastructure we use. Their maids and their limo drivers should pay that portion instead. ::rolls eyes::

  187. 187.

    Comrade Darkness

    How foolish of you to stay a democrat.

    I don’t make enough money for the republicans to cut my taxes, so that’s a non-issue. Were it only true. But, really I like my constitutional rights way more than I like wealth. Can’t buy those, not at the markets I can afford to shop at in my lifetime. But powergrabbing maniacs manipulating the lowest fears of the people so they can channel wealth to their rich friends, sure can do a number on my rights not to mention the country’s economic health.

    When the republicans actually act conservative, I’ll give them a listen. But at the moment, they don’t have a single truly conservative cell left in their festering little bodies.

  188. 188.

    WarrenTerragon

    I even got Thyme Zone to challenge me to a bet

    WTF, you think I didn’t know you were a fake?

    What a wanker. You were about as obvious as they get.

    Good christ on a cheese tray.

  189. 189.

    TheFountainHead

    Clearly someone forgot to take economics 101. Although I see you left yourself an out with at any given time. What period of time is that? A year? A month? A day? Wealth is not finite. Have you not noticed the stock market? The other day it lost trillions. Where did it go if wealth is finite? Where do you think the wealthy few keep their money? In their mattress? Aren’t socks and bonds part of the economy? Even if they just left it in the bank, wouldn’t that be available for loans?

    You’re conflating "wealth" with dollars. Not the same. Yes, the stock market dropped, but the wealth wasn’t destroyed, it’s been redistributed in the form of the long-term notes taken out by our government to bail out the banks. So basically, China has it.

  190. 190.

    blogreeder

    The other commenters are running circles around you right now. Give it up already… You got owned on the transcript. Slink off, lick your wounds and come back with a new line of attack.

    Remember, that quote wasn’t brought up here initially because it didn’t have anything to do with Palin. I brought it in and you all are much wiser now. I did my part. I still think the shorter Obama gets the gist of his meaning without all the wind.

  191. 191.

    Zifnab25

    @blogreeder: Yeah, that’s a crock of bull. Microsoft took a large bite out of the Apple in ’97 in order to keep its largest competitor afloat. Today, Apple’s market share remains in the single digits. Competition between Apple and Microsoft is like competition between the guppy and the blue whale. They don’t even exist in the same ecosystem.

    When Bush walked into office, he basically let the entire case drop. He also helped strangle the last cases against Exxon over Valdez and helped keep the cigerrette companies from losing their shirts over the cancer case. So no, things aren’t all better. They’re worse now than they’ve been in the last 8 years. It’s just that our government doesn’t even pretend to give a shit anymore.

  192. 192.

    TheFountainHead

    Remember, that quote wasn’t brought up here initially because it didn’t have anything to do with Palin. I brought it in and you all are much wiser now. I did my part. I still think the shorter Obama gets the gist of his meaning without all the wind.

    That’s more incoherent than John McCain after 6:00pm. Did anyone catch the meaning of that?

  193. 193.

    blogreeder

    When the republicans actually act conservative, I’ll give them a listen. But at the moment, they don’t have a single truly conservative cell left in their festering little bodies.

    I agree 100 percent.

  194. 194.

    Comrade Darkness

    The other day it lost trillions. Where did it go if wealth is finite? Where do you think the wealthy few keep their money? In their mattress? Aren’t socks and bonds part of the economy? Even if they just left it in the bank, wouldn’t that be available for loans?

    Oh, man, this is so rife with conflation, I have to cash it in.

    Thanks for the laugh. And honestly, if you really want the answer to that question, which is about 50 pages long, start reading calculated risk. But, please don’t post. Or, I guess, please post, depending on how slow a day it is in the markets…

    btw, inflation is a tax. Throw that into your jumbled bag of concepts while you are at it.

  195. 195.

    blogreeder

    Did anyone catch the meaning of that?

    Sorry, my little joke about this being Palin-juice because of all the posts on Palin lately.

  196. 196.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    Don’t you want to be rich one day?

    No, I grew up rich, and the people I was surrounded by were the biggest assholes you’d ever meet.

    No, thank you. I want to be happy, but that doesn’t require me being rich.

  197. 197.

    TheFountainHead

    Sorry, my little joke about this being Palin-juice because of all the posts on Palin lately.

    Right. Ha. ha.

  198. 198.

    blogreeder

    You’re conflating "wealth" with dollars. Not the same. Yes, the stock market dropped, but the wealth wasn’t destroyed, it’s been redistributed in the form of the long-term notes taken out by our government to bail out the banks. So basically, China has it.

    There is no fixed dollar amount either. So let me get this right. When a stock drops in value the difference is converted to a long term note?

  199. 199.

    blogreeder

    They’re worse now than they’ve been in the last 8 years. It’s just that our government doesn’t even pretend to give a shit anymore.

    You have to be careful here because Obama is part of the government. And we all know Obama cares.

  200. 200.

    Will Hunting

    Warren – it was obviously fake. One of the things that makes this blog and SN! funny is the hilarious responses to the fake trolls. Without that, it gets a bit boring once you pass the 100 comment mark. As much as we rag myiq and pluk, this site was a bit livelier with them around. Throw in Wilfred’s unbridled anti-semitism and this place was positively hopping.

    When people seriously engage the troll, all the better. Most of the comments the other night were not serious, the offer to bet seemed serious, if not, why make such an offer?

    It feels a little bit like the end of The Candidate around here sometimes is all.

    Also – can we retire the "Christ on xxx" phrase? It is long past the sell by date…

  201. 201.

    WarrenTerragon

    I don’t want to be rich one day. I just want to be able to afford decent food, some gas for the car, some flexibility here and there. Being rich isn’t really something I crave.

    If I won a lottery, I’d give most of it away. What’s the point of all that wealth? But that’s just me.

    But the question here is, if a progressive tax scheme is not desired, then what shall we use for a replacement?

    If the replacement scheme creates a higher tax for me, it isn’t politically viable. If it throttles progressive government, then it isn’t politically viable. Progressive policy is the standard of the last 70 years, and that isn’t going to change. That creates a need for revenue.

    So, play the "unfair to rich" card all you like, unless you come up with a scheme that works, it’s all just hot air.

  202. 202.

    WarrenTerragon

    can we retire the "Christ on xxx" phrase?

    Nope. Been using it here for years, have no intention of retiring it.

    But we should retire that insane "recent posts" feature up there, a feature nobody needs which makes the thread just about intractable every time we refresh it. Another example of some software developer in love with a feature, which does nobody any good at all. The old navigation feature was much better, faster, and easier to use. But, keeping it would require some poor programmer having to see his beloved code where it belongs, in the trashcan.

  203. 203.

    blogreeder

    So Steve Jobs who earns $1 in salary and takes everything else as cap gains taxed at 15% – that’s progressive?

    A low capital gains tax rate is meant to encourage making money available for investment. The narrative is that the saving rate in this country is terrible. Interest in a savings account would be capital gains. Buying stocks helps companies aquire capital that they need to create jobs amongst other things.

  204. 204.

    WarrenTerragon

    the offer to bet seemed serious, if not, why make such an offer?

    I love this place. Where else could you get a question like that? Oh jesus.

    I make bets to draw out the lies. The easiest way to find out if a boaster believes his boast is to construct a wager and find out if he will put his money where his mouth is.

    I make bets that are winnable. If the fool takes the bet, I have some fun and possibly win some money. The bet I offered that fake was quite winnable, but even better, the fake ran away from it. End of fakery.

    Now, the Dougj bet was a whole different model. But I have explained it in detail about four times now, and that’s enough.

  205. 205.

    blogreeder

    But the question here is, if a progressive tax scheme is not desired, then what shall we use for a replacement?

    The current system is pretty progressive to me and I’m OK with it. Like you, I don’t understand how more progressive it needs to be for some of the people here. They keep saying take more from the rich but then it would move the burden up too far. I’m not saying they couldn’t afford it but we all should pay something.
    Isn’t that what people are saying anyway? I think everyone should pay some federal tax.

  206. 206.

    WarrenTerragon

    They keep saying take more from the rich but then it would move the burden up too far.

    Yes bt what I am after is for you to declare what is "too far."

    How far is too far? Who makes that determination, and what process is to be used for making it? If it’s all just political manipulation, then …. here we are. Nothing will change.

  207. 207.

    Conservatively Liberal

    When borgreefer wants to play economics 101 I will be glad to join in. But first he needs to take economics 101. I might suggest some macro and micro economics courses too.

    Then they can hang out at Calculated Risk for a few months to get a feel for things and we can talk after that. Trying to communicate with a trolling simpleton like borgreefer can be hazardous to your brain.

    Sure borgreefer, all wealth is infinite. Yup, you betcha! Just infinite wealth lying all over the place just waiting to be scooped up.

    You are a fucking wanker.

  208. 208.

    blogreeder

    Yes but what I am after is for you to declare what is "too far."

    I don’t know. Do you have an idea? Obama’s narrative is that all we have to do is get the rich to pay 5 percent more and 95 percent of middle class will get a tax break. Isn’t that right?

  210. 210.

    blogreeder

    Then they can hang out at Calculated Risk for a few months to get a feel for things and we can talk after that.

    I haven’t heard of that, is that a blog? I read Marginal revolution. Sometimes.

    Sure borgreefer, all wealth is infinite. Yup, you betcha! Just infinite wealth lying all over the place just waiting to be scooped up.

    What about a diamond in a mine? That would be just lying around. Wouldn’t it turn into wealth once it’s mined and processed and sold?

  211. 211.

    WarrenTerragon

    Obama’s narrative is that all we have to do is get the rich to pay 5 percent more and 95 percent of middle class will get a tax break. Isn’t that right?

    Obama’s narrative is that it’s time to move on, and he is the man to get it done. Based on what I know about him, I believe him. That’s why he has $4k of my money and also my vote and total support.

  212. 212.

    blogreeder

    Obama’s narrative is that it’s time to move on, and he is the man to get it done.

    You seem reasonable, I hope you don’t get disappointed. Politicians can sure say a lot of things that sound reasonable. But without a track record there’s no telling what they’re like. Have you ever read how Obama started in politics? It’s here.

    The day after New Year’s 1996, operatives for Barack Obama filed into a barren hearing room of the Chicago Board of Election Commissioners.
    There they began the tedious process of challenging hundreds of signatures on the nominating petitions of state Sen. Alice Palmer, the longtime progressive activist from the city’s South Side. And they kept challenging petitions until every one of Obama’s four Democratic primary rivals was forced off the ballot.

  213. 213.

    WarrenTerragon

    Have you ever read how Obama started in politics? It’s here.

    Yes, he was a kid breaking into machine politics. Good for him. I like the chutzpah.

    I think that machine politics background is one reason why he can stand up to the inferno of national machine politics and keep his head, while people like his insane opponent go bonkers and self-destruct over and over again, every 24 hours on schedule. That’s why we are winning and they are losing.

    There is no more vile, despicable force in this country than the Republican machine. Finally, we have a guy who can stare it down and not be beaten by it.

    Lucky for us.

  214. 214.

    blogreeder

    Yes, he was a kid breaking into machine politics. Good for him. I like the chutzpah.

    Chutzpah sure. But it was like eating his own. I don’t know if that Tribune story is true. Who knows? But that would lend some credence that he is part of the Machine and all that entails.

  215. 215.

    Brian J

    A low capital gains tax rate is meant to encourage making money available for investment. The narrative is that the saving rate in this country is terrible. Interest in a savings account would be capital gains. Buying stocks helps companies aquire capital that they need to create jobs amongst other things.

    You are confused about the definition of capital gains. From Wikipedia:

    A capital gain is a profit that results from investments into a capital asset, such as stocks, bonds or real estate, which exceeds the purchase price. Conversely, a capital loss arises if the proceeds from the sale of a capital asset are less than the purchase price.

    Capital gains may refer to "investment income" that arises in relation to real assets, such as property, financial assets, such as shares or bonds, and intangible assets such as goodwill.

    Many countries impose a tax on capital gains of individuals or corporations, although relief may be available to exempt capital gains: in relation to holdings in certain assets such as significant common stock holdings, to provide incentives for entrepreneurship, or to compensate for the effects of inflation.

    In other words, interest in a savings account is not capital gains.

    It’s been a while since I’ve looked into this topic, but I’ve always thought the line was that capital gains and other investment tax cuts were generally good, if the loss in revenue was replaced with money from other taxes. That’s not what has happened in the last eight years.

  216. 216.

    Brian J

    Have you ever read how Obama started in politics? It’s here.

    When he was running for the State Senate, the candidate he was about to replace, Alice Palmer, was beaten in a primary by Jesse Jackson, Jr for a House seat. She tried to get Obama to drop out, but he refused, even when she had the elder party leaders in Chicago pressure him. Then he went through the files to disqualify signatures on petitions. As you indicated, he was the last man standing. There’s nothing illegal or unethical about what he did, at least as far as I can tell. He may have played hardball, but if Palmer wasn’t prepared, then she has nobody to blame but herself.

  217. 217.

    CD

    challenging hundreds of signatures on the nominating petitions

    Call me naive, but doesn’t challenging a signature mean that you’re claiming the signature is invalid, i.e. doesn’t follow the rules? And if a signature is removed, doesn’t that mean that it was determined invalid?

    In other words, wasn’t the Obama camp insisting that voting rules be followed, to the letter? I know that rule-following is a strange concept in these waning Bush days, but WTF? How is this a bad thing? What am I missing, here?

  218. 218.

    WarrenTerragon

    B-reeder, I am here in Arizona and about 25 years into watching John McCain. I despise the man, I have no respect for him at all. He is totally self serving, everything he does is about John McCain. He is a liar and a crook as far as I am concerned, and worse, a crook who thinks his POW status gives him pass to do whatever he wants and just flip off the world in the process. i think the man is an intellectual and moral trainwreck.

    I said months ago, he’d be the worst candidate for president you ever saw. Behold, has he disappointed?

    On the other team, my team, is a level headed young guy with class and guts and brains who looks like just the candidate I have hoped for all my life. He is the best candidate I ever saw.

    Im going with the new guy. Good luck to you in whatever choice you make.

  219. 219.

    Brian J

    In other words, wasn’t the Obama camp insisting that voting rules be followed, to the letter? I know that rule-following is a strange concept in these waning Bush days, but WTF? How is this a bad thing? What am I missing, here?

    That’s exactly what he did. It’s not a bad thing, even if it is a particularly harsh way to defeat your opponents. But unless there’s some sort of information missing from the story, he did nothing illegal or even unethical.

  220. 220.

    Johnny Pez

    Rugbleeder, I’d just like to take this opportunity to point out that Barack Obama is gonna SOCIALIZE YOUR MAMMA!

    To quote the inimitable Thomas L. Friedman: Suck! On! This!

  221. 221.

    blogreeder

    She tried to get Obama to drop out, but he refused, even when she had the elder party leaders in Chicago pressure him.

    I thought she was like his mentor.

    There’s nothing illegal or unethical about what he did

    No, but did anyone challenge his signatures?

  222. 222.

    blogreeder

    You are confused about the definition of capital gains.

    You’re right.

    It’s been a while since I’ve looked into this topic, but I’ve always thought the line was that capital gains and other investment tax cuts were generally good, if the loss in revenue was replaced with money from other taxes. That’s not what has happened in the last eight years.

    Tax receipts went up. Didn’t they? The spending got out of control.

  224. 224.

    blogreeder

    remember that if you have the last comment, you win the thread.

    Only if you write something relevent. Like why doesn’t the spell check work in IE 7? And why does it take so long to submit?

  225. 225.

    JGabriel

    225 Comments?

    So let me get this straight: People comment more when Cole has nothing to say?

    That’s a little counter-intuitive.

    .

  226. 226.

    wilfred

    I missed the whole War on the Economy but this just sums up the past eight years of despicableness on the part of the Bush Administraton and their mouthpieces on the shithead right:

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The Bush administration explicitly endorsed the use of waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods against al Qaeda suspects in a pair of secret memos to the CIA in 2003 and 2004, The Washington Post reported on Wednesday

  227. 227.

    Original Lee

    So I was thinking how I could reply, ya know, where to fucking start with this cretinous excuse for a Christian without offending my very fundamental Baptist Ma. And how to put it in terms that she wouldn’t find sexist (Ma is one of those typical ditzy old women who can read into anything.)

    Send her over to The Slacktivist website. He has a couple of really nice posts about what is wrong with Palin from an evangelical POV.

  231. 231.

    Kali's Little Sister

    Shhhhh! Awwwww, look; there’re all sleeping. So cute! Even their little pet troll with the dribble on his pillow…

  233. 233.

    Comrade Tax Analyst

    Brian J says:

    It’s been a while since I’ve looked into this topic, but I’ve always thought the line was that capital gains and other investment tax cuts were generally good, if the loss in revenue was replaced with money from other taxes. That’s not what has happened in the last eight years.

    Well, that’s the line, alright, but in spite of "the line", I don’t believe this has proven to be the case. See, Capital Gains are now taxed at a LOWER rate than Ordinary Income (such as Wages, Net Income from Schedule C Sole Proprietorships, Rental Real Estate Income, etc). For Tax Year 2007, Long Term Capital Gains (those held over one year) are taxed a 5% or 15%, depending on how much Taxable Ordinary Income you have. Some Capital Gains are taxed at 25% or 28%, but I’m not teaching that Tax Class here today, and for the most part we are looking at 5% and 15%. I haven’t seen any reliable study that proves any particular benefit to the overall economy from this break, but I DO know that the majority of Capital Gains are earned by those fairly well-to-do and above. Very few poor people have Capital Assets (stocks or business properties, for the most part) to sell.

    BTW -"Your Ass", for example, is NOT a saleable Capital Asset, mostly because you still retain possession and ownership rights after the transaction. So you’re not really "selling" your ass, but merely "renting" it out, as it were. At any rate, if you are offering these types of Anal-Timeshare products out on the corner, you are most likely a Sole Proprietor and should declare the income on a Schedule C. If you have a pimp you probably should be classified as an employee and therefore get a W-2 from your pimp by the January 31st following the end of the Calendar Tax Year. Pimps, however, are for the most part notoriously remiss in issuing these documents.

    For further information please consult your Tax Professional.

  234. 234.

    liberal

    @blogreeder:

    Tax receipts went up. Didn’t they? The spending got out of control.

    BS.

    You haven’t controlled for:
    (1) the business cycle
    (2) the fact that when you lower capital gains taxes, some people are going to realize their gains to quickly take advantage of the lower rate

  235. 235.

    liberal

    blogreeder wrote,

    The fact that Obama says the plumbers success is somehow preventing others from achieving success is the sub-text of the quote.
    He therefore has the right to spread the plumber’s wealth around. Socialist thinking through and through. Notice Obama doesn’t offer his own wealth.

    First, the quote has been chopped up by right-wing websites.

    Second, Obama isn’t saying anything about "preventing others…" He’s saying that you have to get the taxes from somewhere, and he’d rather get more from people who make $250,000+/year.

    Third, it’s not "socialist thinking." Socialism is defined as government ownership or control of the means of production. Taxation doesn’t involve such control.

    Fourth, on balance, the government transfers far more wealth from poorer to richer by forcing people to pay landlords to use land, whose value the landlords didn’t create. (Noted Marxists like John Stuart Mill knew this; another old-time Marxist, Adam Smith, probably knew this.)

Comments are closed.