In this blogger’s opinion Obama won the debate with a measured response to the question of abortion. The instapproval graph also liked his health care plan (they hated McCain’s unhappy-mayor-from-The-Nightmare-before-Christmas attack face), but the point about finding common ground on abortions maxed the squiggles and kept them there until he stopped talking.
The basic thrust of Obama’s point went like this:
Planned Parenthood and the (more reasonable) Lifers have the same basic agenda: reduce the frequency of abortions. Family planning and birth control moots the question of casual abortion by putting women in control of their own reproductive agenda. Why not sell it that way? Peel off the Life groups who will cooperate on community-health strategies to reduce abortions through planning and highlight the extremism of the Lifers who won’t cooperate. At this point we’ve got more than enough public health studies to know for a fact which approaches in fact reduce abortion rates and which do not. Reframe the debate so that the moderate and rational opponents of abortion have more in common with us than they do with the bombers and other freakshows.
That wasn’t a quote from tonight, it was a bit of strategery that when I was just another commenter at Kos*. It was my only rec’d diary (sniffle), and in my opinion anyway the whole thing makes a great read. The basic point was to strategize about what Dems should do if we won a crushing victory in 2004 (foresight!), but really it was a diary about Barack Obama. His 2004 convention speech moved the hell out of me, so I wrote a diary proposing how Dems can win an enduring majority by following in the spirit that Obama laid out instead of the spiteful path of Rove.
It sucks that Kerry didn’t win, but instead I can watch a black guy with a muslim name eat the Republicans’ lunch using a strategy that I envisioned after watching a speech by him. It’s nice to think that I’m a little bit in tune with the guy who could be our next JFK.
***
(*) About the Kos pseud – I picked Tom Frank back when Kos has 10,000 users and I didn’t know about that other guy. I felt embarrassed when I found out, but by then I wasn’t about to give up the sweet user ID#.
Josh Huaco
McFirst!
ThymeZoneThePlumber
I learned a long time ago, the right doesn’t want to reduce abortions. They want to use the issue to beat up on liberals.
They don’t give a fig about life, or finding common ground.
malraux
Is there anyone who wants to increase the number of abortions?
oh really
Although Obama is too moderate on the issues for my taste, I think he has far more substance than Kennedy every had. He’s the most impressive Democratic politician I’ve seen in my lifetime, and I remember watching the ’56 conventions on television.
Even as I cringe at some of his policy positions, I can’t help but think that Obama is a lot more in tune with what most Americans want than I will ever be, and he has the tools to accomplish an amazing amount, if he displays as much integrity as he has skill.
McCain is a sad, ugly little man, in way over his head, with absolutely nothing to offer the American people apart from a tired and somewhat inflated ancient biography, a hugely inflated ego, and a temperament better suited to a pro wrestler than to a president. And Palin is even worse.
handy
I’m what those fancy schmancy focus group people would categorize "pro life," and McSame even lost me (okay, he never really had me) over the health scare quote tactic. Way to stay classy, McMaverick. I hope Cindy enjoys that tax increase President Obama is gonna slap on her.
Joe the Plumber
I love John McCain
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4525220n
Geeno
The thing I like best about Obama after watching this whole campaign unfold? He has clearly thought more moves ahead than I EVAR could have. He has a plan, and a back up plan, and another plan behind that – all of which further his overarching plan. The man is just in control of whatever situation he finds himself in. I find that confidence building. I don’t want a president like me; I want a president better than me, and I feel confident that Obama is that man.
Comrade Nikolita
Bah I had a long reply and then my boyfriend unplugged the internet accidently and I lost my reply.
What I originally said was, I had to leave for work after the first half hour and missed everything else. I’ll have to watch CNN later tonight after my boyfriend goes to bed and I can catch up. I’m choked I missed the abortion question, because I know Obama’s gotten heck for not clarifying his stance in the past.
In that little CNN insta-poll down at the bottom, does anyone know how the women reacted to McCain saying he was firmly pro-life? I know Caribou Barbie is too. I hope more women saw this last debate and will re-think voting for someone who will take all of their reproductive rights away (I’ve been hearing he’d restrict birth control access too, which he has no right to do).
IndyLib
Holy shit – McInsane Asshole is getting reamed by Matthews, Fineman and Roger Simon on his nasty "health" jab on the abortion issue.
Simon pointed out that Obama is supporting the "law of the land" and isn’t taking a far left position about abortion, and Fineman said that McNutjob’s response was an attempt at "ideological perfection" and aimed toward Greater Wingnuttia, and said it sounded cruel.
Phoebe
Larrison seems to agree with McCain on the "health of the mother" thing. Thinks it’s a loophole to get a late term abortion, I guess.
Geeno
@Comrade Nikolita:
McCain questioned the "Health of the Mother" exemption from the pro-life stance. Absolutely killed him with women who had those reaction dial thingies.
dr. bloor
Meanwhile, back at the
funny farmranch…Kali's Little Sister
Is Obama just the least neurotic person around? How odd to have such a person as our national leader…
A la lanterne les aristos
I think that’s Bob Barr’s platform.
stickler
Being strongly "pro-life" as McCain said he was (for the first time, that boldly, that I’ve ever seen), means quite simply:
You want to make legal abortion more difficult for low-income women.
Daughters of the country club set will always be able to get birth control, or abortions, or "vacations" at some "clinic" for five to seven months as their "mono" works itself out.
It’s the poorer, (probably) browner, daughters of our less-fortunate fellow citizens, who will be resorting to coat hangers and quacks. Why? BECAUSE THAT’S HOW IT’S BEEN FOR ALL OF RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY!!!!!!!!eleventybillion!!.
LiberalTarian
So, you think you know the story on the the 2008 presidential elections?
I got 19 out of 29. Switched a couple of my wingnuts, and didn’t know who Andrew Halcro was. Couldn’t tell the difference between a comedian and a candidate … oh well. NEXT TIME I’LL DO BETTER! ;)
Big E
McCain can’t hide who he is or what the Republicans represent..
His persona during the debate is one of an unstable man, nervous, anxious and anxiety ridden. He comes off as angry. He can’t believe he will lose to someone like Obama as he believes that he, McCain is entitled to be president.
Maybe America is now seeing and listening in a new way as a result of the last 8 years and the current financial crisis.
Surly Duff
I disagree that Obama had a strong debate. He did the minimum required thoguh. He remained calm and composed, regardless of the topic, but he was also extremely devoid of passion thoughout the debate. Even his rebuttals to McCain attacks were extremely even and calm. I admire that evenness though, and in contrast to McCain it is often very reassuring.
McCain’s current presidential campaign and the debate tonight has been complete and utter incoherence. Nothing has made sense. Nothing he has done or said has represented a strategy. Nothing makes the least bit of sense. And I was a Republican and a McCain supporter in 2000 (although that is somewhat pointless now-a-days).
I am tired of the continuing refrain – "this is not the McCain I know". This is McCain and who he is everyday. He has chosen his positions and the issues he has decided to pursue in this election. He chose his running mate. He chose to focus on attacking his opponent rather than focusing on the issues. It was apparent tonight, and as a result he has failed. At every attempt, Obama has thrwarted him, and McCain has no coherent response. Even tonight, McCain amazingly asked Obama to repudiate John Lewis’ statements (because apparently Obama must repudiate every statement from anyone even associated with the Democratic Party), and then when confronted with the point that people shouted "terrorist" and "kill" Obama at his own rallies, McCain said that he would never question the patriotism of the crowds at his rallies. It was completely ignorant and misguided.
The entire campaign has demonstrated the bankruptcy of the current Republican party, and the vapidness of their arguments.
Surly Duff
I disagree that Obama had a strong debate. He remained calm and composed, regardless of the topic, but he was also extremely devoid of passion thoughout the debate. Even his rebuttals to McCain attacks were extremely level. I admire that evenness though, and in contrast to McCain it is often very reassuring.
McCain’s current presidential campaign and the debate tonight has been complete and utter incoherence. Nothing has made sense. Nothing he has done or said has represented a strategy. Nothing makes the least bit of sense. And I was a Republican and a McCain supporter in 2000 (although that is somewhat pointless now-a-days).
I am tired of the continuing refrain – "this is not the McCain I know". This is McCain and who he is everyday. He has chosen his positions and the issues he has decided to pursue in this election. He chose his running mate. He chose to focus on attacking his opponent rather than focusing on the issues. It was apparent tonight, and as a result he has failed. At every attempt, Obama has thrwarted him, and McCain has no coherent response. Even tonight, McCain amazingly asked Obama to repudiate John Lewis’ statements (because apparently Obama must repudiate every statement from anyone even associated with the Democratic Party), and then when confronted with the point that people shouted "terrorist" and "kill" Obama at his own rallies, McCain said that he would never question the patriotism of the crowds at his rallies. It was completely ignorant and misguided.
The entire campaign has demonstrated the bankruptcy of the current Republican party, and the vapidness of their arguments.
Mr Furious
2387, bitchez.
And that was my second ID at Kos…
Surly Duff
Sorry for the repetition, I kept getting a citation that I was cited by "bad behavior" and needed to download something. I hate to repeat myself. Sorry!
Kali's Little Sister
24 of 29. I need to get out more. That last question…
Geeno
I had a really low ID number on daily kos. Probably still do, but that computer fried and I lost my login info. My really nice low ID number hasn’t been logged in for 3 years now. I haven’t re-registered just cuz… I never diaried just commented. Bleah – little did I know my liberal creds would challenged on that basis.
Cruel fates.
gwangung
On the other hand… perhaps it was precisely BECAUSE Obama was reassuring and even-keeled, he made a strong impression on viewers, particularly compared to McCain’s incoherence. That counts for a lot, I think…
JGabriel
Comrade Nikolita:
About halfway between the middle and bottom, if I remember correctly.
But since I’m about +5 or +6 (adding "Joe the Plumber" to the drinking game halfway through the debate was perhaps not the smartest move), you might want to seek corroboration.
.
Martin
Something to ponder – the Dems could possibly after this election pass legislation to back up RvW. The filibuster is probably all that’s standing in the way and they may be able to get past that – and that would take the pressure off the supreme court.
Martin
Oh, hell yeah. After seeing Jim Cramer go batshit over the Dow each day, a lot of people really, really need to see someone who can do the "Chill the fuck out! I got this!" in charge of things.
Surly Duff
gwangung – I thought I was pointing out how the lack of emotion helped Obama. However, I would like to see him take on some of the more ridiculous slaims by McCain anyway (although that is just a personal desire):
– School vouchers are horrible. Most studies show they don’t work, and they take money from public schools that are already struggling.
– How is nuclear power supposed to reduce our dependence on oil? Between drilling and more nnuclear power plants, McCain has nothing. Unless I missed the new developments that our trains, airplanes, buses, and cars are now fueled by nuclear power, Montgomery Burns isn’t going to save us. Why not point this out?
Staying ven-keeled is a good political strategy, but I’d like to hear more about disagreements with McCain’s policy and why Obama’s positions may be better for the country.
ninerdave
Well he could have been like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfiNT6AKG0s
JGabriel
Liberaltarian @ 16:
20 out of 29.
I’m so embarrassed. With all the time I spend online, I should have hit at least 25.
.
JGabriel
Surly Duff @ 18:
Well, whether or not Obama had a strong debate, the CNN instapoll had him winning by something like 66% to 22%, or 70/30, or something like that. Did I mention I’m plastered?
Anyway, it was a big fucking margin.
The point being that he either won some people over, or, at worst, did himself no harm. Either one is a win, since either one maintains his lead.
.
TenguPhule
It was never about reducing abortions from the right.
It was all about putting a collar on the vagina and the leash in the hands of a double wetsuited dildo fucker.
Michael Gass
I too used to post at Daily Kos. I left when they showed they were merely the leftist version of Red State.
Neither candidate won tonight. It was just more of talking points. If all you wanted was talking points, fine.
Barack had ample opportunities to slam McCain; he didn’t.
McCain pledged. Pledged. To attack on Ayers, yet, he ran as fast as he could from it.
Will Barack be better for America? Sure.
Has either shown they know what a fight is and how to wage it? No.
A la lanterne les aristos
22! Which I’m gonna call a mandate, since most of my failures were about talking heads that I don’t watch.
Comrade Nikolita
@Geeno:
GOOD. Thank you for the reply! (Thank you to everyone else who replied too.) I’m watching CNN re-play it for the second time and I’m waiting to see the abortion question come up, so I can watch it for myself.
What a prick. I hate it when anyone, but especially male politicians, seem to think they can tell women what to do with their bodies and reproductive systems. Thank god I live in a country where it will never be made illegal because the country would RIOT (protest to the extreme, you get the idea) if anyone tried.
I don’t like abortion, but I would never in a million years think of taking that choice away from other women. And people who want to force their (that) ideology on other people piss me right off.
Comrade Nikolita
And what I forgot to mention is that if McCain wants to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions, the US needs to ditch the abstinence-only education (thank you Bristol for being proof it doesn’t work) and actually TEACH our teens and teach people how to make better decisions. Teach them that birth control is not foolproof. Teach them that using a condom is not enough. Teach them how to use birth control and where to get it. Shit like that is what people don’t know and they need to know in order to make better decisions about their bodies, health and lives.
McCain can also go DIAF for suggesting "the health of the mother has been stretched to mean almost anything." Fuck off asswipe. Since you and Caribou Barbie are determined to eliminate abortion, including in cases of incest and rape, the "health of the mother" is the one exception that must remain in place.
I can’t believe I don’t hear about more women who are against McCain/Palin because of their stance on the abortion. It’s not even my election and it drives me up the wall. :P
Joe Lisboa
Has either shown they know what a fight is and how to wage it? No.
Dude: do you really want Grampy McCain to come downstairs and beat the difference between a strategy and a tactic into ya?
Shorter: are you that naive and/or dense?
We’re gonna win this shit. If you’d prefer not to be lumped into said "we" go vote Libergreentarian or whatever. Seriously. The rest of us have some heavy fucking lifting to do come 11/5.
[fed up]"FIGHT!"[/fed up]
Martin
When you’re a dozen points ahead, what’s the benefit of fighting? And what more are you trying to prove that the dozen point lead doesn’t already prove?
BTW, Nikkei down 11%, most of Europe down 5%-6%. Sounds like another winning day…
Товарищ НеинтереснаяСобака
@LiberalTarian:
26/29. Jesus, that’s embarrassing. In my defense, I did guess on a few of them.
Porlock Junior
Fight? There’s another interpretation of what Obama is doing, and currently I see it fitting the data awfully well.
Obama is giving us lessons in winning a fight, has been for months, and will wind up in textbook studies of how you do it under certain unfavorable conditions. Like your whole audience being ready to run screaming in terror if you show signs of fight.
Of course this would be more important if the country weren’t in a period when its power to push people around is at its very peak, unstoppable by anybody; if ther seemed to be some need for skill in outwitting an opponent, getting people on one’s side, refusing to be baited into something unwise. But the time may come, you know, when such skills could be of use.
Cruel Jest
Who won the night? I say Michael Grunwald for this:
Link
Zuzu's Petals
Wowza, looks like McCain -or at least his campaign – has ties to actual real life terrorists who, you know, actually killed people:
Slate
JGabriel
K-Lo tries irony, but only ends up showing us why children shouldn’t be allowed to play with knives:
.
Twisted_Colour
the guy who could be our next JFK.
Dude! Don’t say things like that.
JGabriel
The Corner is a treasure trove tonight. Mark Steyn proves that he thinks everyone is just as paranoid about the godless commies as he is:
El Cid
I just want to know what sort of planning is under way for the Mother Of All F***ing Unimaginably Impossibly Huge G** D*** Inauguration Parties.
Should we throw some giganto messy Woodstock thing in DC, or have a 50 State Party?
Fulcanelli
This debate in particular reminded me of the Three Stooges gag where Curly is fired up and comes, fists flailing, after some guy (Moe?), and the guy just calmly reaches out and puts his hand on Curly’s forehead and keeps him out of arm’s reach while Curly swings for the fence, but to no avail.
I think Rachel Maddow (damn, I love her) had the best post debate quip when she said, "It seems John McCain doesn’t want Barack Obama to become President, more than he wants to be President."
I think he handled the Ayers/ACORN smear stuff fairly well, wisely showing (maybe too much) restraint in not handing McCain his glutes on a platter, considering the "First Dude’s" involvement with the AIP, and the video floating around of McCain addressing and gushing over ACORN at one of their conferences, among tons of other, er, inconsistancies.
Lipstick on a pig line of the night: The bombastic McCain proclamation about how a handful of ACORN canvassers submitting dodgy voter registrations is going to unravel the fabric of democracy. What a fucking maroon.
A single malt toast to President-Elect Barack Obama in my morning coffee today.
Comrade Incertus
@Mr Furious: 842. Suck it, Trebek. Though I haven’t logged in or left a comment in a year or so.
Obama’s position is eminently reasonable, but as someone above noted, the anti-choice movement isn’t about stopping abortions; it’s about controlling who has sex and with whom, plain and simple. That’s why there are no anti-choice groups who openly advocate for increased access to birth control, but there are lots of them that advocate for an end to it, by calling the pill an abortifacient, for example.
liberal
El Cid wrote,
There’s still the possibility that the Rethuglicans have a plan to steal the election.
Matt McIrvin
In every presidential campaign, there are moments when I think to myself about the Democratic candidate, "If Y has any brains at all, he’ll say X." And this campaign is the first one I can remember in which, on many, many occasions, within 12 to 24 hours of my thinking that, Barack Obama says X.
Which is not to say I’m some sort of brilliant campaign strategist. When he doesn’t say X, it usually turns out he’s right not to, and it’s been amazing to watch how cool-headed he remains when he’s down a little and everyone is shouting free advice from the peanut gallery. But a lot of this stuff is not rocket science, and a lot of Obama’s genius is just that he doesn’t shy away from making the hits that are completely obvious to any thinking person.
Paulie Chestnuts
I can’t believe that commenters here, who generally are a smart lot, are buying into the "pro-choice"/"pro-life" framework.
Here’s a tip: the opposite of pro-choice is NOT pro-life, it’s ANTI-choice.
In situations where the life of the mother is in jeopardy by carrying a pregnancy to term, "pro-life" is actually anti-life.
Seriously, folks – the sooner you adopt the appropriate terminology the better (i.e., more honestly) the debate can be framed.
Matt McIrvin
To be fair, Jim Cramer goes batshit over his morning cornflakes. That’s his whole act.
robertdsc
Steyn and the rest of the wingnuts should shitcan this line of "attack" pronto. We’re already socialists under Dubya and the bank takeovers.
And for the thousandth time, so what if Barack is a "socialist"? The free market does not work, less regulation does not work, and the country is down the tubes due to Republican values. Don’t they fucking get it?
JL
@Comrade Nikolita: Griswold vs the State of CT was founded on the right to privacy. If the court decides that there is no right to privacy in the Constitution then not only is Roe affected but Griswold (birth control) is too.
Dennis - SGMM
McCain’s conflating autism with Down’s Syndrome demonstrated his ignorance. This demonstrates his hypocrisy:
Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, told CNN Wednesday he agrees with President Bush’s veto of legislation expanding a children’s health insurance program, saying the bill provided a "phony smoke and mirrors way of paying for it."
"Right call by the president," the Republican White House hopeful told CNN’s John King.
There are autistic children among those who won’t get coverage because of Bush’s SCHIP veto, John. No, doctors can’t cure autism: my wife and I have been raising our autisitic son for twenty-three years so we know that in our bones. Doctors can take care of a an autistic child’s basic health needs so that a difficult situation doesn’t become a soul destroying nightmare.
John McCain was a POW for five years and he wants the world to pat him on the back for it. You’re the parent of a special needs child for life and all most of us want is an even break – and maybe a night out together as a couple.
r€nato
well, unless all the utilities in the country have converted their power plants to burn oil, it really doesn’t. Something like 4% of US electrical power is generated by burning oil. Most of the rest is either coal-fired or natural gas-fired. I think that all other sources (hydro, wind, geothermal, solar) comprise roughly 10%. Furthermore, future sources of electrical generating power won’t come from oil either. Building more nuclear plants would have the effect of reducing carbon emissions which would otherwise come from coal or gas burning power stations. Personally – and here I diverge from the orthodoxy – I’m willing to trade some more nuclear power stations for the benefit of not further adding to CO2 emissions. It’s that important to do something about global climate change.
I get really irritated when politicians (usually GOP ones) keep telling us that nuclear plants will help get us off the crude. Uh, no.
fuckin’ A dude. Same reaction here. I’m really pleased that he brought up the business of the death threats at McCain/Palin rallies. And what did McShitstain say in response? He didn’t like a t-shirt someone wore. Huh?
Post-debate thoughts:
I watched the debate again last night. First time I watched on PBS which did not do the split-screen thing. When I heard that McCain was really angry-looking, I tried to watch again on a network which did the split-screen. CNN did not show it again at a time that I could watch it so I had to settle for Faux Noise (ugh) which did a sometimes-split-screen. I really didn’t see a whole lot of angry McNasty reactions so I’ll have to take y’all’s word for it that that’s what happened.
Absolute worst moment for McCain was, hands-down, his air-quoting of ‘exceptions for the health of the mother’. It was even worse the second time I saw it. Absolutely cringe-worthy. Only hardcore anti-choicers and political nerds will get what he meant, and even then it was a shitty way of phrasing it.
In fact, Obama truly shined on that question and McCain absolutely stunk. Obama is pro-choice and will govern that way; McCain is anti-choice and will govern that way. But Obama reached for the middle ground, reached out to moderate pro-life voters (yes there are quite a few of them and they are persuadable). McCain, instead, tried to make some moderate sounds in his response but the last half of his answer was pure, undiluted anti-choice red meat rhetoric.
One of the basic rules of a general election is that you moderate your positions which are farther from the center, in order to attract those middle-ground voters. McCain did nothing of the sort on this question; in fact quite the opposite. I’m sure that will play well with the Palinistas and hardcore right ideologues, but hardly anyone else. That base can only vote once, Johnny, no matter how hard you pander to them.
And in case I didn’t say it already, his mocking of health exceptions for the life of the mother had to have turned off every woman he was trying to court with his Palin pick, other than the ones who were already on his side.
Did anyone else think that McCain’s damning-with-faint-praise references to Obama’s eloquence, sounded like he was saying, ‘don’t pay attention to the fast-talking negro over there’?
I was stunned that McCain tried to use the, "Obama didn’t agree to ten town halls so he got what he deserved’ line of attack. Even my low-information friends saw right through that one. And of course, Obama knocked it out of the park.
Finally, throughout the debate I was overjoyed at how Obama ju-jitsu’d every attempt McCain made at attacking him. For instance, Obama handled the Ayers attack with aplomb, calmly and reasonably explaining the situation for Americans who may have known nothing about Ayers other than he was bad and Obama was his golfing buddy or something.
Obama really is a master of rhetoric and, despite what the GOP attacks tell us, that is a valuable skill for any politician, especially a president. Obama may have been just running out the clock last night but even when he doesn’t bring his A-game, he’s still miles ahead of McCain. McCain – regardless of his merit as a candidate – is just not a very good debater, while Obama is fantastic at it.
Comrade Incertus
@JGabriel:
The Corner is a treasure trove tonight. Mark Steyn proves that he thinks everyone is just as paranoid about the godless commies as he is:
Well, to be fair, when you’re as paranoid as Steyn is, you have to think everyone else is just as bad or you’ll collapse into a quivering pile of goo.
chopper
i just wish obama would have characterized mccain’s line as ‘look what you made me do’. it’s pathetic that mccain keeps trying that shit and hoping people buy it.
...now I try to be amused
The contrast between Obama’s campaign and McCain’s campaign, which lacked an overall strategy, reminds me of Sun Tzu:
Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
Some more Sun Tzu quotes that apply:
The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
emma
Based on what’s being said at McCain-Palin rallies some people wish a woman named Ann Dunham had one in 1962.
Comrade Nikolita
@JL:
Ahhh ok, thanks for clearing that up for me.
And that’s fucked up. How is reducing the access to birth control going to reduce unwanted pregnancies and abortions? If anything, I’d think the number would go UP, because simply telling people "Don’t have sex until you’re ready for kids" isn’t going to work for longer than 5 seconds.
@Paulie Chestnuts:
I’m sorry, I use the term "pro-life" out of force of habit. I am aware that the opposite of pro-choice should be called "anti-choice", although I will admit that the terms are a little interchangable in my mind (with the "anti-choice" part being inferred when using the term "pro-life").
Robert
Comrade Nikolita (CN) flirts with the heart of the issue in post #61 by recognizing that (1) people have sex because that’s what we as mammals have been pre-programmed to do and (2) the so-called pro-lifers basically advocate not having sex unless you plan to have kids. (Sex is for procreation and enjoyment derived from it is only to assist in that agenda.)
Also CN recognizes that names/labels have meaning. Since the "pro-life" group seems to advocate sex only to have kids, the label "pro-life" seems inadequate and misleading (since they are not necessarily anti-war, etc). Perhaps something like "Pro-procreationists" would be better and more descriptive.