According to everything I have read and everything the talking heads on my television have said, last night was John McCain’s best performance, but that Obama committed no gaffes, held his own, and then finished strong. I have to say at that I am relieved that McCain had a better night, as there is still a chance that he could pull it out and win. Anything can happen, and it would be nice to think that if Obama does lose, the next administration would not be a total disaster.
On the other hand, I think this take on things is probably delusional:
Tonight we finally saw what so many of us have been waiting for. John McCain mopped the floor with Barack Obama.
Throughout the night, Barack Obama looked distant, like he did not want to be there, like he was annoyed. He really looked annoyed all night.
McCain on the other hand looked like the comeback kid — the guy who knew he had to do well. And he did.
Here is why it mattered.
Between October 24th and 27th of 1980, Jimmy Carter was ahead of Ronald Reagan by six points. Obama is up three in the traditional Gallup poll and up eight in the expanded Gallup poll.
This becomes very doable for John McCain tonight. It becomes very doable.
Doable and plausible are two different things, and we need to square this “mopped the floor with him” rhetoric with the polls:
CNN poll of debate viewers: Obama 58%, McCain 31%
CBS poll of uncommitted voters: Obama 53%, McCain 22%
Still making their own reality over at Red State.
Conservatively Liberal
I don’t know about disaster but I don’t want McCain to win and I don’t think last nights debate performance helped. I think he started out strong but after the first half hour he wandered at times, changed directions and abruptly changed back (on topics of economy and trade), he seemed angry at times and looking at the snap polling results, Obama handily won.
Hell, even Luntz at Fox polled in Obama’s favor with his polling showing that of the five minds changed, four were for Obama. RedState is a good laugh to read since they sound like they are in the morgue room, gathered around the corpse and talking about how lively it still is.
Obama didn’t knock it out of the park in any certain way, but he more than stood his ground while McCain’s visage and demeanor hampered getting any coherent message out.
Dork
What the hell is a "traditional" Gallup poll, and where does one find it? I see Obama up 10 (51 to 41%), so where does his "8 points" come from?
jon
Obama looked annoyed? Probably because McCain’s constant whining about Ayers and townhall meetings and Palin’s anti-cronyist cronyism was annoying.
But I guess since it’s a statistical probability for McCain to win, I guess I’ll have to get used to the statistical probability that I might have to possibly consider getting used to it. Maybe I can then try McCain’s Cryptkeeper grin to hide my true feelings, but I think I’ll stick to eyerolling and other signs of annoyance for now.
dmsilev
RedState is almost ready to throw in the towel on McCain. I’m somehow on their "take action!" mailing list, and got this yesterday:
The best they could do in a "rally the troops" email was "it’s anyone’s call at this point, but we’re better off looking at Congress where we might possibly win something". Coming from Erik The RedStater, that’s practically a surrender.
-dms
DrDave
I don’t have enough drugs in my pharmacy or controlled drug cabinet to create the sort of delusion that exists over at Red State.
Robin G.
When McCain talked about abortion, he did air-quotes around "health" of the mother. Then he chortled.
Pro-life, pro-choice, I think we can agree that once again being run by someone who snickers about matters of life and death would qualify as a total disaster.
Montysano
My wife burned the toast this morning; I’d like to publicly repudiate her.
My teenage daughter whined about doing homework; she’s totally repudiated.
I knew a pot dealer back in college; I repudiate and denounce myself. Obviously, I’m not my kind of person; I am not one of Us.
And now, in a mavericky strategy, I think I shall suspend my commute to work.
burnspbesq
RedState is, as usual, transcendently silly.
However, they have been out-sillied.
I realize it is early in the day, but I confidently predict that no public official anywhere in the world will say anything today that is even remotely as silly as this statement from French Sports Minister Roselyne Bachelot.
Vive l’exceptionalisme francaise!
Comrade Stuck
If you happened to hear the debate on radio or later read the transcript, then conceivably a person could come to this conclusion. However, if you watched the debate, the visuals, I think, would tell a very different story. I watched it on CSpan split screen and McCain looked like one scary, angry, impatient and sometimes confused SOB. Emphasis on scary and angry. His answer mocking the Health exception to late term abortion, and his flippant body language was alone enough to call the debate for Obama, who was his usual calm and deliberate self.
Nim, ham hock of liberty
I don’t agree at all. I’m a homer, too, but I tried to watch the debates with as unbiased an eye as possible. I thought McCain did far better in the first debate than in these last two. In the first one, he stuck far more to the issues, and argued them. He demonstrated a lot of knowledge and experience (although, imo, poor judgment about what to do with that knowledge and experience). The last two debates were far more about sound bites and ad hominems.
That makes for more dramatic viewing, but it impressed me far less. Honestly, after the first debate, I left thinking, alright, if McCain somehow wins, it won’t be the end of the world. He’s not nearly as stupid and inept as W. That’s a credit to his performance.
The last two debates were tawdry, and standard GOP tax-and-spend bashing. I cannot fathom how this was supposedly his best performance – and I think the snap polls reflect that. As far as I can tell, the consensus that this was McCain’s "best" stems from nothing more than it being his most aggressive. But what he was saying was so very underwhelming. Ayers, socialism, tax-and-spend, and over 9000 references to Joe the Plumber….this is impressive?
r€nato
haven’t they said something like that after all of the debates?
McCain was not exactly awful but some of his responses sure were. The two which stood out to me:
hands down the worst reply was his on abortion. Even if you are solidly anti-choice, McCain sure did not win any votes with his reply, which started out semi-moderate and ended up retreating into full-on, undiluted anti-choice rhetoric. His air-quoting of ‘exceptions for the health of the mother’ was absolutely disastrous for his hopes of courting any moderate female votes with his Palin pick. Even if you knew what he was trying to say, it was an awful way to phrase it and if you didn’t know what he was referring to (the anti-choicers allegation that exceptions for the health/life of the mother are a gigantic loophole), you thought he sounded like a heartless prick.
McCain, in his past, has made moderate-sounding noises on this issue and on gay marriage too. Last night, he sure did not.
Tactically, Obama mopped the floor with him on that question. Obama ably reached for the middle ground on a very contentious issue while McCain moved further to the right than I’ve ever seen him. Again, this may have pleased the RedStaters but if they really want to win this election, they have to realize that pleasing the base 24/7 is not how you do it.
The other lousy response McCain gave was on the issue of nasty campaigning. He sounded incoherent in response to Obama’s mention of the death threats at Palin rallies. I was stunned when McCain tried that, "you didn’t agree to ten town halls, so you deserve whatever you get" line on Barack. Even my low-information friends saw right through that one.
I think the most reasonable thing anyone could say in McCain’s favor is that he held his own last night. I don’t think that’s true, but it’s not 100% delusional like saying that McCain mopped the floor with Obama surely is.
r€nato
did anyone else notice that the Iraq war was not mentioned even once last night?
Further proof that American public opinion is set in stone on that issue… even the moderator didn’t think that was an issue worth spending time on, not even to pay lip service to the issue.
Kevin
Only pundits thought McCain did better. I actually thought it was his worst performance.
First, the two things I remember most from McCain are:
-Putting air quotes and mocking the "health of the mother"
-Rolling his eyes in disgust when Obama mentioned Columbian labor leaders being assasinated.
He just looked like a complete jerk to any normal person (which is why Redstate thought he did so well).
And that doesn’t even get into his jumping from thought to thought in the exact same sentence. It was like he was trying to fit as many topics as he could into every answer, regardless of how relevant they were.
Lastly, the real turning point of the debate was when he nearly cried because of Lewis’ comments. Obama was calm, mentioned that he did say the line was over the top, that Lewis had clarified his statement, and then went back to his talking points on health and energy and the economy while noting that he didn’t care about getting his feelings hurt. Made McCain look like a child.
Brian J
I don’t know if this means anything, but as Josh Marshall says, when the undecideds are laughing at him–literally, laughing at him, Joe Biden–I don’t think it’s a good sign. McCain did indeed have a better night than usual last night, but that’s like saying that after three tries of playing singles against Rafael Nadal, I did better on the third try even though I got my ass kicked. McCain was still pretty incoherent on most answers, and at least two or three networks seemed to have that split screen where McCain looked like the guy in an Imodium commercial, something I doubt went over well. The only way you can say McCain wiped the floor with Obama is if you believe all of the stereotypes of him.
chopper
methinks the guys at redstate need one of those "gold-plated cadillacs" of mental health care policies.
gypsy howell
McCain’s worst, most despicable moment was mocking the health of women. My blood froze on that one. I hope Obama, or someone, can make hay with that – it was chilling in its callousness and depravity.
Montysano
McCain was in a difficult spot last night. His base demanded that he bring Bill Ayers to the table, even though all polling indicated that, outside of the 29% deadenders, Americans just didn’t give a rat’s ass about the issue. So McCain’s attack on Ayers last night was half-hearted at best, and he seemed happy to move on when it was apparent that it wasn’t sticking.
It was all downhill from there, culminating in the air quotes thing.
Has there ever been a major political figure who is more tone deaf than McCain?
Jeff
Even I am not as delusional as Dick Morris who says Obama could win Arizona.
Jeffrey
For me, it was when Obama talked about the need to protect Columbian labour leaders from assassination, and McCain rolled his eyes in response. I wanted to throw my remote at the TV at that moment.
Ben A
McCain started out stronger than in the first two debates. I can see why the "true Conservatives" thought he won.
He was snippy, was pitch perfect on abortion, said lower taxes like 45 times… but the problem is he sounds exactly like every other republican we’ve ever heard.
Just because he was marginally more coherent doesn’t mean what he was coherent about was all that attractive to most people. Not to mention John McCain looks OLD, looks easily confused, easily angered… not like a president…. like someone’s cranky old grandfather.
Plus no one thinks you can actually buy health insurance for $5000…
It’s not just John McCain who’s out of touch. The whole party, his advisors, all the right wing web sites are woefully out of touch. Anyone who has any clue has left or was driven out of the Republican party.
r€nato
McCain did that a number of times. Look, it’s been said by others before and by me too: McCain sucks at debating. He doesn’t know how to do it. Obama is a master at it.
McCain said that Obama deserved all the nasty campaign ads because he wouldn’t agree to ten town halls. If I were McCain, I would be thankful there weren’t more than three debates. He would end up getting a percentage of the vote about as low as Bush’s approval rating.
You know what Obama reminded me of last night? Neo, at the end of The Matrix. He just calmly stands back and easily parries with one hand whatever furious attacks Agent Smith can throw at him. He did that time and again. On the Lewis question, on Ayers.
These three debates have really sealed the deal for voters who did not really know much about Obama before September. He looks very presidential and calm in a troubled time, and that is the most important thing about these debates.
Jeff
Considering he cannot even remember the syndrome that his running mate’s child has, I do not think it is a matter of being tone deaf.
Brian J
Hey, why can’t more reporters be like Dean Baker, an economist? As he says:
As someone who is not an economist, I often take longer to understand certain issues than others. But even I can easily understand that Joe the Plumber would be paying taxes on only a little bit more of his income because of the way the income tax is structured. Does he understand this? I had to mention this to a friends this past weekend who claims he’ll be making $250,000 a year when he graduates law school next year.
It blows a big hole in McCain’s argument. I can understand why Obama wouldn’t agree with McCain on this, but it would help if some reporter pointed it out.
r€nato
I live in Arizona. McCain is not going to lose AZ. Obama is trending so strongly, however, that it’s not going to be a huge win for McCain either. I predict McCain wins by 5 or 6 points, which is not exactly a huge vote of confidence in him in his home state.
Brian J
To be fair, the focus was on domestic policy. There were ways it could have be woven into the debate, but they had plenty to talk about as it is.
r€nato
it was? I missed that, then. My bad.
Comrade Peter J
Arizona is leaning towards Obama and Tennessee is a tossup, but Indiana is leaning towards McCain?
Says it all, even if I like the idea of 396+ Obama electoral votes…
Andrew
This gem really stood out in the redstate thread…
Conservatively Liberal
I listened to the debate and while McCain came out strong, he faltered and ran off track while elaborating on a subject. It was disjointed and even irritating to listen to McCain respond to some topics. My wife said that "air quotes" about women’s health pissed her off, as it did our daughter. The last thing they want to hear is some old guy talk about what they can and can not do regarding their personal health.
If it was McCain’s best performance, then his first two were pretty damn bad. Reading around news outlets and reading commentary online, it is clear that the right is pretty dispirited right now and the left are doing the Snoopy dance.
I like that. After too many years of arrogant right wingers high fiving each other and dismissing liberals, they now get to eat some good old crow pie. The permanent Republican majority is dead and barring the dead girl or live boy with Obama, the right knows that they are going to get their asses handed to them this fall.
Jeff
@Brian J: I bet most people do not understand their own taxes and how the number is calculated. They just hear a tax rate and assume all of their income is taxed at that rate, especially because they would have to readjust their numbers every April 15.
Kirk
Speaking of laughing at McCain, he has to hope this picture doesn’t hit the mainstream. No, it is not photoshop, it’s the real deal.
Michael Demmons
Doesn’t look like it to me.
Napoleon
At this point McCain is as likely to win as I am to be sleeping with Eva Longoria tonight. Last night was the final nail in the coffin for Johnny Drama and Carabou Barbie.
gbear
Headline over at MSN.com this morning:
Barf.
Carnacki
I liked this in another redstate post
Rick Taylor
You should bite the bullet and watch the debate on youtube for yourself before drawing any conclusions. Talking heads are unreliable. They thought Palin did ok in her debate too.
Svensker
Srsly?
My take away from this debate was that, if McCain were to win, the country is in the crapper. He’s an impulsive, not very bright cranky dickhead, with no ideas and no grasp of what’s going on. Worse than Bush.
Comrade Peter J
@Michael Demmons:
Exactly. But Dick Morris seems to think it is.
If there is a swing that gives Obama Arizona then Indiana is lost to McCain.
Not My Fault
I think intrade is calling he election this morning.
jrg
I’ve thought for a long time that Republicans think that magical fairies build roads and schools, and that the taxpayer does not have to pay for any of it. Last night, McCain confirmed that view.
Oh, and getting Down’s Syndrome and Autism mixed up? If he knew anything about Autism, he would know that onset is not until about 18 months – 2 years at the earliest. Not only does he not know about Palin’s kid’s condition, he has no clue about Autism in general.
Kirk
I just got through checking the data on the polls of Reagan-Carter, and as you might expect Redstate is a little bit off. Most polls in that window had the two neck-and-neck. That is, they are within a couple of points.
I’m also going to go out on a limb and say that the hostage crisis and last minute debate combined to help Reagan, but there is nothing comparable for McCain. He didn’t swing anything last night, and the existing crises are working against him.
David
@r€nato: Last night’s debate was about domestic policy, not foreign policy, and the moderator kept it on point. It wasn’t really anything else…
Rick Taylor
It’s also not encouraging that he thinks that Fannie and Freddie May caused the subprime market to collapse. Seeing as we’re entering the worst financial crises since the depression, it would be good to have a President who has some idea of what he’s talking about.
Phoenix Woman
As Kos says, the pundits tried mightily to spin this in McCain’s favor, but the snap polls wouldn’t let them — and it’s pissing off the pundorks to no end.
patrick
The pundits talk as if the underlying facts were neutral. Points are scored for ripostes, attitude, etc. Pundits do not say that the basic republican reality is untenable. Cutting taxes for rich people has not helped the economy, and so the solution for the economy is not cutting taxes for the rich even more, and cutting rich peoples’ taxes to zero will not bring infinite revenue to the government and create infinite prosperity. So, when Obama says that the policies of the last thirty years have not worked and McCain counters that the problem is that taxes were not cut enough, from a debate point of view those may be considered equal answers. From a reality view they are not. Obama wins with the majority of the audience because what he is saying resonates as true for people actually living in this economy, what McCain says no longer does — except for those wingnuts who think the answer to a gasoline fire is to pour on more gasoline.
The truth counts for most of us more than it does for pundits determined to remain "neutral".
JL
This comment is not from Kos,
From CBS Marketwatch
I’m not sure how McCain spins this.
Not My Fault
I’m sure that if I had cameras on me all the time there would be no shortages of pictures of me looking stupid.
That said, this is pretty funny.
chopper
totally. that, his eye-rolling on the labor-leaders-being-assassinated and his idea that veterans shouldn’t have to pass any sort of certification to become teachers left me reeling.
oh, and also his hard-hitting criticism of how obama voted against putting breyer on the supreme court 10 years before obama became a US senator, that was a funny one.
Robin G.
That image just tickled me. I love the Snoopy dance. And, frankly, I think I’ll go do it now.
gypsy howell
Runner up for McCain’s stupidest meme of the night (right after "Health of the mother? Pfffttt!") was his "spreading the wealth" accusation.
Ummmm….. Senator McPOW, ‘spreading the wealth’ is sounding like a pretty damn good idea to a lot of Americans right about now, even if it’s horrifying to people like you and your wall Street CEO cronies.
Michael Demmons
@Comrade Peter J: Dick Morris is the most reliably wrong pundit in America, so there you go.
Not My Fault
Not as totally crazy as it sounds. When I returned from the Peace Corps, I was given a provisional teachers credential after passing a single test.
If I had intended make teaching my career, I would have had to make up all of the normal requirements over a couple of years, but at least I could be working while I did it.
Now this is DIFFERENT from veterans in that my job in the Peace Corps had been teaching in a secondary school, so my experience applied pretty directly.
On the other hand, while I strongly support higher standards (with the associated higher pay) for teachers, most of the standards in place today are foolishness. The nation looses lots of potential teachers because there are plenty of capable, talented people who just aren’t willing to subject themselves to what passes for "teacher education" (there, I made my own air quotes) in this country.
I have a hard time getting upset because someone wants to let folks who haven’t been through the teacher mill teach. As long as some real evaluation, redirection for the hopeless, and a career path (which includes useful education opportunities) for the talented, it could be much better than what we have now.
Michael Demmons
http://www.joetheplumber.com/
He lives!
Comrade Bey
Yeah, I saw that weird little dance McCain did as they were exiting the stage and thought to myself – this is not going to look good for him tomorrow.
At the risk of sounding like those morans on CNN talking about the body language, McCain’s body language strikes me as that of a self-conscious teenager, afraid that everyone is looking at him and thinking he looks stupid. So he mugs in an attempt to pass it all off as a joke. When my boys were junior high age, they did stuff like that.
You’d think that by now McCain would have developed some poise.
And as for his confusing Down’s with autism, it’s not that he doesn’t know the difference – it’s that he doesn’t care. The fact that Trig is disabled is all that’s important to him. McCain and Palin both use that poor kid as a campaign prop, which is another reason I find them detestable.
………………
not as totally crazy as it sounds. When I returned from the Peace Corps, I was given a provisional teachers credential after passing a single test.
—————
Yes but the Peace Corps is all about collegial accomplishment of shared goals – something deeply related to teaching in a pedagogical sense. Not like a blowing shit up/shooting at people at all.
I’m the daughter of an educator and this notion that anyone can teach pisses me off in a big way. Don’t get me started on homeschooling……..
Laura W
In the sober light of morning it just dawned on me that I do not recall McGrumpy ever referencing his honorable service to the country. POW. I also do not recall Obama doing the obligatory nod to same.
Of course, my recall may be a little "erratic".
chopper
that’s my problem with the idea. i like streamlining the certification process for people who serve this country in some sort of teaching aspect, like people in the peace corps (a friend of mine is down in el salvador teaching kids english for the PC). it’s good to help people who’ve not only been serving this country, but also who’ve been out of the country for a while, to reintegrate themselves into the job market as easily as possible.
but shit, driving a tank in iraq for 18 months doesn’t make you qualified to be a teacher. i’m sorry, it just doesn’t. if a vet had a job overseas that was similar to what you or my friend did, then great, but it didn’t sound like mccain was making that distinction.
honestly, i think deep down inside mccain really thinks that being in the military makes you qualified for any- and everything under the sun.
DBrown
Delusional is the only word that fits such a far out dumb ass statement that shows this person only has a load of shit for brains. Carter had the Irainian disaster that he could never overcome and to compare such a situation to today’s issues is beyoud stupid and irrelavent. The economy is that diaster in spads and Mcpuddles can piss himself until Nov 4th and will not change the fact that inteligent and other types will vote green (as in dollars) and nothing will change the simple fact that democrats have both the numbers and issues on their side.
Punchy
I wonder how many of Prof. Cole’s students have said this exact same thing, minus only the "Iraq" part….
Notorious P.A.T.
I like when he said that Sarah Palin knows more about special needs children than just about anyone. Yeah, she had a baby with Down’s Syndrome less than a year ago, so that makes her an expert. That, plus the fact she went on a cross-country flight while 9 months pregnant. That’s what an expert on children would do.
Napoleon
Joe Klein rocks today
Erieg
I am surprised no one has brought up McCain’s claim that Accorn is going to destroy democracy in America.
They are already setting up the reason to hound Obama if he does win. My repub in-laws are already saying "The only way "that man" can win is if Accorn steals it for him".
These are low info people. I can’t believe they have even heard of Accorn. Too much Fox News I guess.
Ash Can
@Andrew: Not sure about who he’s addressing that comment to, but whatever he’s dropping himself is some pretty strong shit, yo.
Rick Taylor
It’s honestly surprised me how closely McCain has hued to wingnut talking points. The financial crises is the result of liberals insisting on giving loans to people who can’t afford them. Concerns about the "health of the mother" in abortion are a liberal ruse and shouldn’t be taken seriously. The cure to health care is to use tax cuts and privatize it more! And of course he selected Palin to be his VP, and he supports the war.
Wasn’t this the maverick, the guy who right wingers just hated? Do they really hate him just because he admits climate change is real, gives lip service to opposing torture, he pushed immigration reform and public financing of elections, and he once opposed the Bush tax cuts (though he’s surely come around since then).
Tsulagi
I’ll disagree.
I watched the debate. Pretty sure the reason RS Erick got all starbursts excited was McCain’s willingness to go all wingnut suckup with his Ayers, ACORN, and “infanticide” attacks. Then no matter how well Obama shot those down, McCain kept coming back dragging out that portion of the debate. As if he wanted the last word so the meme for tomorrow could be Obama refused to answer or ducked those charges.
Another jackass point for McCain came when Shieffer brought up the negative tone of the campaigns and specifically some things said at McCain rallies. McCain went into full-bore loony victim mode in the highest Party of Bush wingnut tradition. Even demanded an apology from Obama for something a congressman said. Then shed a tear for the patriotness of his crowds. He should change his name to McCain Yankee.
Main impression I got from the debate was that you could almost smell McCain’s desperation and fear he was going to lose this election. Another was that he reinforced in McCain/Palin you have two Bushes, the with and without lipstick versions. Kinda sad McCain wanted the presidency so bad he sold his soul to the worst elements on his side of the aisle. Not a high note to end your public career on.
el ranchero
It looks to me like Redstate reacted so gleefully to McCain’s performance because McCain tailored his performance to them. He’s "fighting the last war," so to speak, still operating under the realities of the 2004 election where there were very few undecideds and the best strategy was to mobilize your base with red meat and ideological jargon. The base and its bloggy wankers have been insisting that McCain’s only losing because he’s not being conservative enough and not attacking Obama hard enough, and he apparently took their advice.
It’s the same reason why he kept peppering his arguments with terms like "class warrior" and "wealth redistribution." Those are terms that get the base riled up because they invoke hoary old conservative bugbears, but they don’t mean much to non-conservatives. Putting "health of the mother" in scare quotes is another classic example of him fluffing the base, because the Christian right has been howling about the elasticity of "health of the mother" exceptions in legislation for years. Women who aren’t familiar or sympathetic to those arguments, however, were probably thrown aback by his cavalier attitude toward something that sounds pretty grave.
He gave exactly the kind of debate performance that the diehard conservative "Culture War" types wanted and had been demanding. The problem for McCain is that it’s not the kind of performance undecided voters want.
YellowJournalism
The air quotes pissed me off, too, along with his strange connection of the "tererist!" rally goers with patriotic veterans and wives of servicemen.
Another thing that just really made me mad and told me a lot about McCain’s mindset was the discussion of early childhood education. I was wondering if he would point out that the boost Head Start and other programs give to children starts to erode around the third grade. When he did, I was slightly impressed. That is, until he pointed the finger back at Head Start instead of suggesting we take a look at what’s happening around that third grade mark. Then he went on about vouchers. In fact, I’m not impressed much with either candidate on the subject of education.
Comrade Stuck
All sorts of win!!
Shabbazz
On Abortion:
"That’s the extreme pro-abortionist’s position [air quotes] Health [end quotes] of the mother!"
On Nuclear energy:
"That’s the environmental extremist’s position [air quotes] Safety [end quotes]!"
I thought McCain was a complete and total train wreck. He looked even more uncomfortable, senile and crotchety than usual. John, I strongly suggest you watch the debate before implying that McCain would be even remotely coherent were he (shudder shudder) to get the votes in November.
Seriously — "Clown Shoes" is an understatement.
Shabbazz
Oh yeah, one other thing that made me laugh.
Obama mentions people yelling "Terrorist" and "Kill Him!" at the Palin rallies. McCain shoots back "boo hoo hoo I don’t like some of the things I’ve heard at your rallies! I saw a guy wearing a T-Shirt there that really hurt my feelings!"
The apples-to-elbows comparison was beyond surreal.
On the same question about the negativity of the campaign, Obama says "John’s ads don’t say anything about his vision of the future — but they sure do spend a lot of time attacking me personally!" McCain thn proceeded to boo hoo about how Obama made commercials attacking his healthcare plan which was clearly the exact same as attacking someone personally.
jake 4 that 1
Shorter RedState:
"I’m sure I’m not the only putz in America who, when McPOW started blinking like a fluorescent light with a bad ballast, sat up a little straighter on the couch and said, "Hey, I think he just winked at me." And his death-like rictus of a grin. By the end, when he clearly knew he was doing well, it was so sparkling it was almost mesmerizing. It sent little starbursts through the screen and ricocheting around the living rooms of America."
Beej
Veterans should be given teaching certificates? Why? Is McCain saying there don’t have to be any standards for teachers? I’ll agree that the current ones are BS, but none at all is a ridiculous idea. Once upon a time in this country there were generations of very intelligent women who had such limited career choices (when I was a senior in high school, my guidance counselor asked me if I wanted to be a nurse, a teacher, a secretary, or if I was getting married right out of high school. Those were my choices.) that the teaching profession had it’s pick of bright, highly qualified teachers for very little money. Then along came the women’s movement. After that women actually had some choices. Teaching paid so badly that most of the best and the brightest passed it up in favor of law, or medicine, or business. Problem is that those who fund education have never figured this out. They wonder why educational standards have declined. Well, how much are you willing to pay teachers? And please don’t hand me that old crap about "throwing money at the problem doesn’t solve it". In this case, throwing money at the problem would indeed go some way toward solving it. But if we’re going to pay teachers a salary comparable to other professionals, then the standards for teachers have to be higher, not non-existent.
kth
Carter was the incumbent in a change election, and lost six-plus points to the newcomer in about a week. Why McCain supporters would find solace in that example is sort of hard to figure.
Cassidy
@Rick Taylor:
He doesn’t believe it. he’s just willing to say it to score points. Even worse in my book.
Kind of a stupid stance anyway. With the Troops to teachers program, it isn’t that hard for us to gt into teaching. AAMOF, the current system places us in "high risk" schools where the tougher mindset and discipline is needed.
@Comrade Bey:
You are seriously uninformed if you think that’s all we do. To put in perspective, I can teach you how to perform battlefield triage and treat related trauma in a week. It’s part of my job. The ability to teach is a necessary skill for all NCO’s.
Xanthippas
Is there such a thing as moderation on the right-wing? He can’t just say "I think McCain did really well tonight and this will probably influence the election." No, it has to be "mopped the floor" and "very doable." It’s as if they can’t stand to be only partially or reasonably wrong; unless it’s "jump the shark" wrong, it’s not good enough for a right-wing blogger.
Comrade Tax Analyst
Score: John Cole: 1, Red State: 0
Comrade Tax Analyst
Doesn’t that make her an Expert on mid-flight child-bearing? Even though she didn’t actually have the child while in-flight, she might have.
SGEW
She can see autism from her house.
Comrade Bey
Cassidy – i’m Air Force, so I know that blowing stuff up isn’t all we do.
It’s called hyperbole (hi-pur’-buh-lee)– I shouldn’t even be telling you this because it’s sekrit teacher stuff.
Our mission is not to teach, it’s to defend, and expecting all returning veterans to be qualified educators is an insult to teachers everywhere. Teaching to the task is worlds apart from educating – which is teaching to think.
SGEW
I think that McCain was thinking about it in terms of reacting to random school shootings. If the teacher is armed, and trained in the proper use of firearms, surely we’ll see less armed violence done to our precious, precious children*.
Yes. Putting armed men and women with undiagnosed PTSD in charge of schoolchildren with no other qualifications for educational expertise is a wise, wise choice, my friends. They’ll FIGHT for our children! And with them! Huzzah!
*BTW: did anyone else catch McCain saying "our precious, precious children" during the debate, a la Gollum? I can’t wait to see tonight’s Daily Show.
Comrade Bey
@SGEW: Woe betide the kid who mouths off in that class. It’s gonna be yessir, nossir, 3 bags full sir.
I missed the precious, precious children somehow. It’s interesting to me that they’re precious only part of the time. Not so precious when it comes to educating them.
stickler
Way, way upthread was said:
This is RedState’s congenital defect. They are all about the 180-proof, certified ideological purity. Any deviation, and "Blam!" you’re banned.
It’s why their absurd goal of turning into the right wing equivalent of Daily Kos was always nuts. You can’t replicate Kos’s success if you spend more time banning people for deviating from the Party Line (whatever the hell that might be today).
I’m convinced that 80% of RedState’s traffic — what little of it there is — comes from moderates and liberals just gawking at the trainwreck.
oh really
While not quite as bizarre as the stuff coming out of RedState, this is still a pretty ridiculous statement.
It is rooted in the same kind of magical thinking that surrounded the vice presidential debate — if only Sarah Palin could do well in the debate (i.e., spew Republican talking points for 90 minutes) that would prove she was competent to be president, despite all the accumulated evidence to the contrary.
We’ve had ample evidence of McCain’s incompetence and cluelessness spread over months. What could he possibly do in one debate to erase all he has said and done up until now? The simple answer is nothing. John McCain’s debate performance, which was actually no better than either of his first two performances, was once again a mixture of angry old man, inarticulate boob, GOP talking points machine, and right wing attack dog.
How anyone could look at those two men and think McCain belongs on the same stage is beyond me. When the presidential debates began, I was very worried about Obama. His primary campaign debate performances were weak and I had seen no evidence that he was capable of growth in that area.
And he proved me utterly wrong. Obama’s performances were reassuring, not in the trivial way the media characterize them, but in the sense that he clearly conveyed the message that he is the most thougtful and articulate presidential candidate we’ve had in the last fifty years. After eight years of adolescent "leadership," it has to be comforting to know that this election the people have the chance to elect someone who could actually elevate our discourse to the level of seriousness our very real problems demand. He has more substance than John Kennedy and he’s every bit as articulate as Bill Clinton without any of his phony lip biting and apparently none of his horrendous character flaws.
But, for John Cole to be comforted because he thinks a McCain debate performance should reassure us after everything else we’ve seen from McCain, that’s just not very bright.
Notorious P.A.T.
My thought is, being a successful soldier means you can teach and lead adults, but children are different. There has to be some way to make sure a prospective teacher has a good understanding of children, which a lot of adults (veterans or otherwise) don’t.
Malron
Jimmy Carter was NOT ahead of Ronald Reagan by 6 points. Maybe in one cherry picked poll, but the average of the polls had a much closer race.
Gore was not ahead in 2000. Neither was Kerry at this time in 2004.
Comrade Jake
@stickler:
Kos has been an interesting place this season. A lot of the HRC die-hards were washed out, though less by being banned than purely overwhelmed. They’ve been critical of Obama here and there (e.g. FISA), but for the most part Kos is "Obama can do no harm" country these days.
The curious thing to me is the shear number of hand-wringers hanging out there. Look for lots of freak-out as we approach the election and the polls tighten a bit.
Phoebe
John, do mot get your opinions from the pundits on this. Or on anything else. But especially on this, where they have such a track record of wrongness.
Get your opinion from ME: McCain came off as an asshole, and also not very bright. Obama was bored and boring at worst, but basically competent and cogent.
Lesley
Mr. Cole, my advice is watch the debate and decide for yourself. I thought McCain’s performance was marginally better relative to his performance in the previous so-called debates; but Obama still wiped the floor with him on several occasions. My impression past the debate was "what’s he running for, again? The job title? The prestige? The power?" Because I didn’t come away with any sense that McCain has a clue.
Not quite sure why anyone (you) would wish this guy a good round when everything about him since the beginning of the campaign – from picking Palin to his abominable attack ads to embracing Bush – suggests he’d be a disastrous president. But to each his own.
Phoebe
About not requiring any qualifications from vets to teach: Did anybody else notice the CNN knobbies’ reaction to that? Total nosedive, like everyone just yanked the knob to the "fuck no!" end, simultaneously.
Given especially the rampant undiagnosed/ignored PTSD of returning soldiers, I think the undecideds might be right on this.