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This post is in: Election 2008, Republican Stupidity, Assholes
Via the Washington Monthly, this Politico piece about an ad Liddy Dole cut accusing her opponent, Kay Hagan, of being a “godless American.” My favorite part is the voice impersonator at the end saying “there is no God.”
Now I am not big on the whole God thing, so I am not sure what qualifies someone as being godless, but Kay Hagan is a Sunday School teacher, which would seem to suggest to me that she has at least a passing relationship with God.
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[…] atheist?” The response here should be exactly the same. Kay Hagan is not an atheist; in fact, she’s a Sunday School teacher. But if she were an atheist, would that disqualify her from running for office? To paraphrase […]
[…] Sheer idiocy. The morons at Balloon Juice are also up to their usual shenanigans. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Doomacrats […]
MikeL
They used a voice impersonator get make it look like a Sunday school teacher said "There is no God". Wow.
I have no idea what an appropriate reaction to that is.
Ash Can
Good grief. And to think that Elizabeth Dole was one of the dwindling number of national-level Republicans for whom I still had some respect. Shows what I know, eh?
Comrade Jake
OT, but Obama just destroyed McCain’s attacks in a speech in NC:
See the link for the video. It’s full of win.
Catfish N. Cod
WorldNutDaily has continued the theme, if not the meme.
"You cannot be a Christian and vote for Obama"
I swear. That’s the actual title. They finally came out and said what they really believe: that pro-choice Christians are not "true" Christians.
They believe I, my friends, and millions upon millions of Americans, are all heretics.
Hear that? It’s the weeping of a million immigrants who came through Ellis Island and endured much so they would NOT HAVE TO LISTEN TO THAT $#!% ANY MORE.
Comrade Jake
@Ash Can:
As an NC resident, let me tell you, there’s no good reason for your formerly held beliefs regarding Dole. She carries the water for the good old boys, but somehow manages to do jack shit for the state. She’s been useless.
Mike
They’re also accusing Obama of being soft on Iran nuking Israel (notice that that ad has a suspiciously New Yawk-sounding voiceover?), so you apparently can’t be a Jew and vote for Obama either. Good thing for him that he has the Muslim vote locked up.
elmo
Kind of OT, I guess, but my own last name happens to be Hagan (no relation as far as I know), and as a result I’ve been following this race with great interest from day one. I’ve never met the woman, never likely to, but when she’s attacked I’m frankly surprised at my own reaction — I want to rush over there and CLOBBER the evil, vile Republicans. Heh.
Anybody out there share a family name with other politicians? This has never happened to me before, and I find it fascinating as heck. Ours isn’t a real common name, especially spelled with two a’s and no e’s. C’mon — anybody named Bush out there? Reid?
comrade scott
Dole has been a party aparatchik since Day One. Like McPOW, she’s been good at cultivating an image completely unlike reality.
Until now. Clearly she’s lifting a page from Old Spice’s campaign playbook and broadcasting not just lies but Lying Sack Of Shit lies.
NC voters, please send her packing.
Andrew
I share a last name with Glen Beck. Every time I think about it I throw up a little.
MattF
I’m actually appalled. Sputter.
cleek
bye bye Dole!
enjoy your retirement!
hope you can outrun Bob’s 4-hour erections.
Jamey
If THERE is a God, he will smite Liddy Dole’s husband with impotency!
Oh, wait…
DBrown
When you think repub-a-thugs can sink no lower, they always find a way.
The Dangerman
Has there been any discussion about being a good wiccan and not being able to vote for Obama?
Team McCain is desperate, they are throwing out everything, but God help us all if this works to swing some states.
And on the little blue pill (yes, some do have a little Captain in them), wouldn’t the anxiety at, say, 3 hours and 50 minutes be enough to end the matter…
Jamey
[Was gonna say something here, but John’s comment edit feature saved me from embarrassing myself. Yay, John!]
cminus
To be fair, I often catch myself thinking "there is no God" when I reflect upon Liddy Dole’s having a Senate seat.
Comrade Stuck
They are shoveling so fast, and making their hole so deep, that when it’s finished, their beady little eyes will pop up and find they’ve made it to China. The silver lining will be, at least they can borrow enough money to make their way back home, in twenty years or so.
Josh Hueco
A spectre is haunting America—the spectre of a 39% top marginal tax rate.
Paul Weimer
Poor Max Cleland can sympathize with these sorts of tactics.
DBrown
Dole is laying the groundwork for a new Southern Strategy. Besides being sick, and evil, this piece of filth (I’d used fair stronger words for this level of evil) is pointing in the direction the repub-a-thugs will follow and gain strength on. Just wait and see.
Grumpy Code Monkey
At least godless atheists appear to be eligible to run for office in NC. That’s not the case in TX:
Emphasis mine.
Krista
Can’t remember where I read it, unfortunately, but I do recall seeing somewhere that atheists were the most distrusted minority in America.
Not that ANY minority should be distrusted, of course.
But still…it absolutely blows my mind that people think that it takes belief in an invisible daddy figure in order for one to be a good person. I could rant on this at great length, but I’ll restrain myself.
Suffice it to say, fuck you, Liddy Dole. There is not one thing wrong with being godless.
DonnaInMichigan
I am a Catholic.
I am voting for Obama.
I guess not supporting Palin and voting for Obama, I am sincerely due to live out eternity in HELL.
b. hussein canuckistani (comrade)
Awesome
Comrade Jake
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
All I can say in response to that is: Jesus Fucking Christ.
Joey Maloney
Hagan’s isn’t bad: pull the ad, or lawyer up! She gave Dole 24 hours to remove the ad or face a cease-and-desist order. It’s laughable because while the law makes it nearly impossible to libel a public figure in the USA, this ad clearly crosses the line. If Hagan filed suit she’d probably win.
kommrade jakevich
Oh come on, we know this one: Membership in the Democratic party and/or opposition to the Republican party = Debbil Worshiping Baby Eating Commie Kweeer!
The GOP should change its mascot to a parrot squawking "U h8 Amerika an’ the Baby Jesus!" over and fucking over.
I know I’m repeating myself but that’s all they got. Being elected won’t magically turn them into responsible adults who take shit seriously. Remember the 109th Congress? A lot of people didn’t take the hint when states like Virginia started turning purple. And now, with Bush’s ratings so deep in the crapper even Joe the Not-exactly-a-plumber could fish them out, the loud mouths are doing the same shit that he did, even harder. Here’s how fucking stupid they are: When they want to show America what the GOP is made of they put a walking disaster like Michelle Bachmann on TV. What statergery!
And now I’m reading that the TalEvan is forcing its way into power at the RNC and NRCC level and no one seems willing or able to beat them back into their holes. Yeah, good luck with that one.
It’s a shame, they had a decent run, but the GOP is DOA.
Bob In Pacifica
In Texas they don’t have to prove the existence of God in order to run, do they?
Comrade Jake
@Bob In Pacifica:
I suspect that pointing out that Texas is bigger than France constitutes proof that God exists.
John S.
I’m not sure that’s really fair, Krista.
I do not think that a person HAS to believe in G-d or even belong to a religion to have morals. That is absurd, and only the truly absurd believe such nonsense.
On the other hand, I do tend to cast a wary eye at atheists because I think that people that do not believe in a higher power do so because they are either 1) Too cynical 2) Too arrogant or 3) Too jaded.
I have known plenty of all three. The cynics simply question everything as a reflex. The arrogant are incapable of believing in something bigger than themselves. And sadly, the jaded have experienced something so painful that they have given up on their faith.
I don’t have a problem with atheists because I think they lack morality, I just have a problem with the usual reasons for why they became atheists.
Far Left American Hater Incertus
@Krista:
There have been a number of polls that suggested this, most of them last year when Pew, I believe, was asking all of those would you vote for a black, or a woman, or a Mormon or a Muslim candidate questions. Atheist came in dead last, behind gay and Muslim, among others.
Crusty Dem
elmo, I share a last name with a former senator in an adjoining state (sorry, with all the stupid things I say, I prefer anonymity). In fact, my father shared the exact name of the senator, and whenever we traveled there, we’d book under his name and get grade AAA service/treatment. Nobody ever asked if he was Senator XXX (he would’ve denied it), but he was always treated like it. I always wanted to make his reservations myself acting as "Chief of Staff" to see how good it could get, but being a modest man, he wouldn’t allow it. Although I know he never complained about everything he got comped…
Honestly, it makes me want to change my name to that of a sitting senator just to see how well I could do w/it… What do you think, Evan Bayh? Bob Casey? Jon Tester?
cleek
that’s right. on the "would you vote for a/an _____" question, atheist comes in lower than blacks, Jews, Mormons, and homosexuals. which, i guess, is good news for blacks, Jews, Mormons and homosexuals.
all us godless heathens just need to sit down and shut up.
Larry Craig
Shade Tail
I read about this on Washington Monthly earlier today, and I have to say, Hagan’s response was incredibly stupid and annoying. She went completely over the top with anger, and has pretty much threatened to sue the Dole campaign for slander.
Yeah, nice one Hagan. Go ahead, buy right into the stupid GOP framing about religion in America. Never mind that you’ve completely betrayed those non-believers who decided that they and you share common political ground. Never mind that by losing your temper like this, you’ve given the Dole campaign exactly what they want. Idiot.
What Hagan should have done is coolly reply, "First, they’re lying by implying that I don’t believe in God, as my pastor standing here could tell you. But second, what does it matter? This is just more of the GOP’s tired tactics of ignoring the real issues in favor of divisiveness and irrelevant smearing." Staying calm and responding like this would have made her look like a mature adult, like a real leader.
But no. Instead, she completely blows her top and, therefore, falls for Dole’s trap hook, line, and sinker. Acting angry and defensive like this reflects badly on her, not on Dole.
What. An. **IDIOT**!!
Comrade Jake
FWIW, I suspect there are many more agnostics than atheists. I think many people simply do not understand the definition of atheist.
Far Left American Hater Incertus
@John S.:
John,
I’m going to presume that you simply don’t know atheists and didn’t mean to sound really stupid by what you wrote there; I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, in other words. But I’m also going to set you straight–to suggest that atheists do not believe in something larger than themselves is utter nonsense, and it’s insulting as well, because it suggests that we are unable to look at the universe and experience transcendence. We just don’t believe in a personal God who meddles in our lives.
The Moar You Know
Between Victoria Jackson accusing Obama of being the anti-Christ and this horseshit from Ms. Dole, I think it’s time that somebody says this to America:
Dude, you’re my friend, and I love you or I wouldn’t be saying this. You need to lay off the crack. I’m serious.
ksmiami
Atheist (formerly Catholic) fake American here voting for Obama – but since I am not a real American does my vote count? Except I live in Florida which as a battleground state is still part of Real America, right? Confusing – A muddle isn’t it?
El Cid
This is awesome. The Republicans should so totally keep pushing the 1917-era Red Scare theme. It will really, really work out well for them.
Teenage Jesus
I don’t care much for the baby me either and yes I did cry a lot back in the day. You could say I was a WATB! LOL
My dad is away at this time so I have to go. I think I’ll turn some water into wine and just for kicks I am going to try to turn some lawn clippings into a different type of grass if you know what I mean ;)
Dad bless.
Potted Plant
John S. — How do you know the reasons that people are atheists?
Johnny Pez
Josh wins the internets.
Shade Tail
@Far Left American Hater Incertus:
Beat me to it. Thanks for that, because I doubt I could have explained this without being at least a bit snarky and sarcastic.
cleek
i was born an atheist.
what’s your problem with that?
The Moar You Know
I do!
An atheist is any member of one or more of the following groups:
Democrat
Muslim
Homosexual
Liberal
Jew
European
Negro
Mexican
Gynecologist
Intellectual
Teacher
Plumber not named "Joe"
University professor
Jetta driver
Any non-Southern Californian who knows what a "latte" is
Death penalty opponents
Quaker
Hippie
Anyone in movies or on TV that is not Chuck Norris
Linux users
Mac users
Vegetarians
Environmentalist
See, it’s easy! I probably skipped a few.
Comrade Jake
@Shade Tail:
Yeah, there couldn’t be a stronger contrast with the way Obama is handling the socialist nonsense.
Ash Can
I seem to recall some evangelical putzes a few months ago calling for prayers for rain for Obama’s acceptance speech in Denver. Actual results? Clear skies for Obama, and a hurricane for whatever evangelical conference was meeting down south. Does that qualify as proof of existence of God?
smiley
@John S.:
How about too rational?
Comrade Stuck
Me too, swear to God!
Delia
"Those whom God wishes to destroy, he first makes mad."
Euripides
Sort of sums up the modern goopers in one line, and brings God into it for them and everything.
Tsulagi
Other side of the coin.
Face
Dammit.
/hides Koran from the 3 wives before before fellow gay black male "friend" comes over to talk about abortions.
Far Left American Hater Incertus
@Shade Tail: I wasn’t snarky or sarcastic? I’ll have to do better next time.
John S.
@ Incertus:
You may presume whatever you’d like, but in this case you would be terribly wrong in your presumptions.
I know MANY atheists (past and present). And based on my discussions with them and why they are thus, I have categorized their beliefs into the three categories I outlined. Perhaps you should have read what I wrote a little bit better, but I realize on topics like this emotions flair and people have a tendency to fixate on what they are offended by and ignore everything else. So I’m going to set you straight.
No, it isn’t. There are a lot of atheists who only believe in themselves and their abilities. They do not want to deal with the possibility that something can be out of their control. I am not saying this is you, but these people certainly do exist.
There ARE people who are incapable of doing this. They are not exclusively atheists.
Um, neither do I. G-d has had a strictly ‘hands off’ policy with regards to humanity for quite some time. This is another notion that is not exclusive to atheists.
Frankly, I think you are more of a cynic. I think being in academia, that goes with the territory. I apologize if you took offense to what I said, but I don’t think you really considered the point I was driving at once you perceived I was assailing you for your views.
pharniel
if you belive in a higher power then you are not an athiest, sorry gusy.
you’re in quibble zone, but you’re not an athiest.
deal.
Commie-rad Rommie
For that Texas Constitution blurb – does the Flying Spaghetti Monster count as a Supreme Being? I hope so.
Larry Craig nee Crusty Dem
Ok cleek. I’m in.
See you at the airport…
Ben
John S:
I take the exact opposite view. If you want to get all stereotypical about belief. I find that people believe in God because they are arrogant. Quite frankly the universe is a far far more impressive place than most religious people want to believe. It is exactly because I believe in something "bigger" than myself that I can’t possible accept the notion Judeo-Christian.
Especially the evangelicals. The fact that they and their beliefs might not matter a whit in the grand scheme of things is terrifying to them.
I’ve always thought that belief in God was a refuge of the truly self-obsessed.
Even if I were likely to have some sort of abstract belief in a supreme being, it wouldn’t be "God". The idea that the same entity that created the universe, black holes, and dinosaurs cares about how and when I eat a pork chop is utterly absurd.
Jeff
Off Topic: Eyewitness account of violent threats at a McCain rally. They won’t be happy until someone is really hurt.
kommrade jakevich
Clearly you’ve never been accosted by some blank-eyed loon with with no concept of personal space and treated to the tale of how said loon came to accept Jesus Christ.
The Moar You Know
@Shade Tail: Uh, no.
John S.
See: Too cynical.
I am an extremely rational person. I was a fucking Biology major for cryin’ out loud. And the more I studied complex biological systems and examined how organisms were built I became more convinced that he only explanation was that there was a G-d (and that is not code for Intelligent Design).
I just happen to believe in Creation and Evolution. I’m sorry, but to me these are not mutually exclusive concepts.
Comrade Darkness
All right, all right. I’ll admit Diana Ross really exists.
les
Can I just say, fuck you very much. I will guarantee you that I, and I will assure you that many if not most atheists, put more mental effort and energy into arriving at atheism than you did in accepting your personal big sky daddy. Let me guess–you didn’t grow up in a family and a society that mocked your sky daddy, or taught you from birth that your sky daddy didn’t exist; you didn’t drive down streets with signs, buildings, billboards and ads claiming there was no sky daddy; you didn’t start meetings, classes, school and public events with statements about the non-existence of your sky daddy; you didn’t have one day a week dedicated to proclaiming the no-existence of sky daddy. Let me guess further–your personal sky daddy looks a lot like your parents’ sky daddy, and you have an organization of supporters patting you on the back about your choice of sky daddy.
Let me be as offensive and general as you: I think most people accept sky daddy because they are lazy, scared and incurious. Well–maybe not most; most never bother to think about it.
John S.
Except for the time I got jumped by six skinheads for being a Jew. Or the numerous times I have argued with evangelicals (Cavalry Chapel in these parts often) who have gotten in my face. Or battled with the Jehovah’s Witnesses in my own family or the ones that come to my door (and the Mormon missionaries, too). Nope, never had to deal with any of that.
But clearly you know more about me than I do.
Olly McPherson
John. S–
You claim to understand other people’s beliefs better than they do. Who are you to talk of arrogance, much less cynicism or jadedness?
Speak for yourself. You don’t speak for me.
John S.
Nice to see that on this thread the atheists are less accepting of views that run counter to their own than the crazy religious freaks they love to hate.
/snark
John S.
Um, no.
I thought I clearly stated my OPINION of why the folks I have come across that consider themselves atheists do so.
Apparently this is a high treasonous offense that requires the denizens of Balloon Juice to hang me in effigy.
Stimpy
@John S.:
I have experienced this type of response by theists to non-theists before. It is condescending and more than a little frustrating.
I think it is rooted in the belief by theists that someone who does not believe in a personal God is somehow "placing themselves above" everything and everyone else, that somehow not believing in a supernatural creator makes one arrogant, self-serving and self centered.
I am afraid that you are mistaken.
What I have never heard from a theist is how they reconcile their definition of arrogant?
According to John S. then, it is arrogant to believe that we are a small, insignificant part of the greater universe. That we are conscious for a brief instant of time and then gone? That the universe cares not a little bit about us or our concerns? That it is up to us to be accountable for how we treat others and our legacy?
But it is not arrogant to think that the creator of the universe, the universe which is billions of years old and trillions of light-years across with an almost uncountable number of stars and planets and life forms created all this, every last part of it, so that HE could tell a tribe of nomadic goat-herders when it is OK to masturbate?
Got it.
Thanks for the info.
cleek
since when are atheists supposed to behave otherwise ?
atheism is about not believing in a supernatural god, not about tolerance.
Comrade Darkness
You did open the topic by sticking a bunch of people in a set of silly boxes. Just for the record.
John S.
And I find the notion that all of these things magically sprang up out of a ‘Big Bang’ or some sort of primordial ooze to be equally absurd.
To each his own.
Comrade Darkness
Well, you should have said sooner. You didn’t say you were in the thinking man’s religion. The one whose most adherent relish a good theological debate.
I surrender. What am I supposed to believe again?
Far Left American Hater Incertus
@John S.:
John,
Your problem is that you think you know what’s going on in other people’s heads when they say they’re atheists. You don’t, just as I can’t know what’s going on in yours when you say something as patently stupid as you have, now more than once. You assume that I and some other atheists are cynical about God, but you don’t know that–that’s your judgment based on what you assume we must think about the notion of a personal God. You run that through the computer in your head, come up with "cynical," and accept that as your answer.
But there’s a problem with that–your computer does a shitty job of knowing what’s happening in other’s heads, just as mine does. Our imaginations are always faulty, but they’re especially bad when it comes to judging motivation, even though we think that’s a strong suit.
Krista
Actually yes, it is really fair.
Sadly, you’re very much in the minority. On many occasions, people have expressed surprise that my husband and I are ethical individuals with a strong moral fibre, who want to have children, but are atheist. Show of hands, everybody: how many people have you heard say that they think children should be raised with religion so that they learn right from wrong? What the hell do you think that implies?
Or perhaps they think the great mysteries of the universe are so beyond human comprehension that our attempts to explain it with theism are so pitiful as to be laughable.
No, what you have a problem with is the tidy little explanations that you’ve created for yourself as to why people are atheists.
Ben
Sure that notion is absurd. It’s also a straw man argument. I don’t believe that it happened magically… I believe one day that we’ll have the answers for how these things came about… and we wont need God to explain it. Just because we haven’t discovered how something happened doesn’t mean that "God did it."
kommrade jakevich
If it makes you feel any better, I’m not an atheist and I find you as tedious as the atheist you describe. You believe in God, hooray.
What the fuck do you want, a cookie?
Larry Craig nee Crusty Dem
Sadly, cleek, being an atheist is all about tolerance. Tolerance of all the evangelical idiots knocking on the door, or accosting you in the street, or all the acquaintances who assume you’re paid up with Jesus. The Mormons and the Jehovah’s witnesses. The Scientologists and the Baptists.
And of course, the damnable Unitarians. When will they stop their proselytizing?? I just can’t accept your vague notions, leave me alone!!
And John S, you know how the almighty feels about shrimp.
Shade Tail
@Comrade Jake:
Exactly. That’s exactly what I was thinking when I saw Hagan’s reaction. Obama’s example proves that the way to deal with that kind of nonsense is not to get angry and defensive, but to just brush it off and tie it into your own message.
@Far Left American Hater Incertus:
Well, it didn’t seem snarky to me. Maybe I have poor reading comprehension. ^_^ No worries, though, I still liked it.
@John S.:
Quite frankly, I don’t believe you. I don’t believe you *know* any atheists. You might have met them, but you don’t know them. And the fact that you are trying to shove Incertus into one of your neat little cubbyholes (the "cynic") based off of a single brief post only reconfirms that you are biased and working from a false stereotype.
@The Moar You Know:
Uh, yes.
The Grand Panjandrum
The way things are looking this election cycle about the only way Dole could have politically damaged her opponent would be to call her a Republican.
redbeardjim
@John S.:
And how is it not "arrogant" to presume that your personal level of incredulity somehow places any actual limits on what is possible?
John S.
I thought I was clear. Perhaps not.
I define the arrogance to be a belief in only oneself and one’s abilities because the notion that something can be out of one’s control or sphere of influence is unthinkable.
That is to say, "I am the master of my own destiny and nothing is going to stand in my way."
I do not happen to believe that G-d directly impacts or influences our lives, so I haven’t forsaken my own personal responsibility for my fate. I just think that there are greater forces at play out there and though I have no idea what my interaction is with them, I have faith that they exist.
Martin
The (D) after their name pretty much takes care of it:
Pope Benedict (D) – godless
Billy Graham (D) – godless
Jesus (D) – godless
See how easy that is?
I’ll jump in on John S. if any of y’all get tired. I’ll just note:
I’d wager that about 80% of theists believe that. Calling them ‘truly absurd’ is a nice defense by you, but if that’s an honest assessment, then you have no fucking idea who inhabits this country.
John S.
It’s nice to have faith absent hard evidence, isn’t it?
Stimpy
@John S.:
I’ll try not to beat up on you in this response. :-)
One of the more amazing and difficult to grasp implications of modern physics and biology is that complexity can in fact arise from simple rules and starting conditions.
Also, just because something seems incredible to you does not mean it is impossible.
To me, what is absurd is the idea that there is any evidence for a supernatural ‘god’ of any sort. Don’t need one, frankly I would be terrified about the prospect of messing up some arbitrary rule or another and being consigned to an eternity of torment. I’ll take eternal oblivion, thanks.
redbeardjim
@John S.:
John S.
Thanks for leaving room for the rest of us!
Oh, but I do. I just don’t happen to be one of THEM (booga, booga).
The problem with a lot of you people is that you don’t actually LISTEN to what people have to say. You merely see some buzz words and decide to attack based on your pre-conceived notion of what I SHOULD be (theist, idiot, liar, born-again, whacko, etc.).
I guess that’s what makes this Balloon Juice, after all!
Shade Tail
@John S.:
You tell me, John. You’re the one claiming to be able to read people’s minds after very brief conversations. I’m simply reaching a conclusion regarding your claims about atheists.
I note, BTW, that you took that one line out of context and replied to it alone. Very dishonest of you. What’s next, outright putting words in people’s mouths?
kommrade jakevich
To some people being called godless is the worst insult you can lob at them. Maybe in their neck of the woods people will understand her reaction.
John Cole
I do not know where I fall on the whole atheist/agnostic/whatever continuum, but I will put it this way:
“I don’t give a shit what you believe in, I just don’t want to hear about it and don’t want you to write laws making me adhere to your fantasy bullshit.”
And that goes for all of you.
El Cid
So, if it strikes someone as unlikely that complicated stuff could arise out of other inanimate matter, it strikes that same person as more likely that there’s some invisible magic guy who made everything out of nothing?
tavella
Wow, John S. is a silly person. Like another poster said, I was born an atheist; there’s no more reason to think there’s a ‘Higher Power’ than there is to think there are invisible fairies in my back garden. If people want to believe in such things for their own comfort, I have no problem with it, as long as they don’t try to push it on me; but to claim it’s arrogant or cynical is foolish. It’s simply the result of rational observation of the world and evidence.
Tsulagi
@Ben:
I’d go with that.
Also that some of the devout use God and religion to justify/excuse their own moral failings. Kinda like the Catholic Mafia hitman who believes if he goes to confession he’s covered. Or bin Laden who thinks he’s got a shitload of virgins waiting for him as payment for his "good deeds."
Oh, I forgot, the answer to that that would be my God and my religious beliefs are pure, those other guys are crazy. Yep, no arrogance there. Complete rational thought. It’s worked so well on this planet.
John S.
Naturally!
I just have not yet seen an explanation for the intricate workings of biological organisms that excludes explanations that I find to be, well, incredible.
Delia
Arrogance is about not accepting other peoples’ existential journeys as valid as long as they don’t try to tell you what to think or believe. Tolerance is about accepting them. I’m as sick of the wingnut right as anyone, but tolerance and respect work multiple ways. Militancy is any guise becomes irritating. I believe in separation of church and state and the right of atheists and agnostics to participate in politics. But the "I’m right and everyone else is wrong" attitude is just as irritating coming from atheists as it is coming from wingnut fundies, and is no doubt a function of the radical polarization of society that’s taken place. The fundies actually know very little about religion, just as people like Dawkins know very little about philosophy.
And one thing I’ve learned is that it’s absolutely pointless to argue these things on the internets, as everyone’s mind is already made up. So that’s all I’ll say on this thread.
Far Left American Hater Incertus
@John S.:
Good grief, man–that has nothing to do with atheism. That’s just being a self-centered dick. Pretty much every atheist I know–and I know a fair number, seeing as I am one and hang around with a lot of them–understand that lots of shit in the world is outside our control. You have to be a moron to think otherwise.
El Cid
Right, then where you pause at that point is with "I don’t know" or "I cannot yet explain this," and not "Well, it’s obviously the doings of an invisible magic being, because how else could you explain us not understanding something yet?"
When you reach the point at where you don’t understand something, it doesn’t mean you’ve discovered magic.
John S.
Really?
Since I don’t know any REAL atheists (with whom I have certainly never had a substantive conversation), then I guess I have to concede the point. Clearly I am only basing my thoughts on the anonymous posters here with whom I can be absolutely certain are real and not full of shit in any way.
kommrade jakevich
@John Cole: But John, if you’ll just accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster into your heart and send me $100,000, your life will be sooo much better.
Comrade Jake
This thread is a good demonstration as to why discussions surrounding religion aren’t permitted on many message boards.
Can’t we all just get along, and get back to pointing out how batshit crazy Sarah Palin is?
John S.
You seem to imply that atheists cannot be morons. Or self-centered dicks.
That’s an interesting take.
I think this thread shows that atheists can be both dicks and morons. As can people of faith. It is our humanity (or rather human failings) that tie us all together.
gocart mozart
I became an agnostic in my late teen years because I took my religion, Roman Catholic, very seriously. I challenged my beliefs and even used logic to do so. The Horror! Needless to say, my beliefs did not withstand the scrutiny.
Punchy
Oh, but they SOOOOOOOOO are. Either lizards came from snakes, who came from fish, or God looked at his Magic Wang and made snakes out of the likeness.
They are by definition mutually exclusive.
John Cole
And another thing- blue laws just piss me off.
If I want a shot of Jameson in my coffee at the restaurant at 10 am on Sunday morning, your God is just going to have to suck it up and deal.
BTW-I don’t i would have as much antipathy for holy-rollers if they acted a little more Christian. If I could remember one prominent bible-thumper saying ANYTHING about our nation torturing, I would be less resentful.
As it is, organized religion can just piss off.
Joshau Norton
Oh Lord, (if there is one), save my soul, (if I have one).
That about covers it.
John S.
I just find it EXTREMELY fascinating how so many atheists here who are so intolerant of the crazy religious nuts trying to push their religion on people that don’t think like them are so incredibly intolerant of anybody who doesn’t think like them.
That’s fascinating stuff, right there.
I don’t give a farthing if you people believe in G-d or not. But clearly, most of you seem to have a major problem with people that do.
Larry Craig nee Crusty Dem
Speaking as a scientist, STFU unless you have more than a passing interest in these things. Don’t utilize basic scientific ignorance to justify your belief in the supernatural, it tends to beyond aggravate those of us who actually study those "intricate workings of biological organisms".. In other words, put up or shut up.
Xenos
If Nina Hagen were to become Senator of North Carolina, that would be dispositive proof that God exists, and that He is Good.
Comrade Darkness
You have a ton of bias in how you are presenting your arguments, just to let you know. I am an atheist and I came by it my own route. So, I’ll speak for myself and no one else. This comment is about as far from my thinking as you can imagine. Most of the universe involves forces out of an individual human’s control. And being 1/6billion is even more daunting. Unlike a believer I don’t believe meditating with hands clasped will change my sphere of control. By my measure, that means I have less influence on "destiny" than a believer. Your summary of my beliefs is laughable. But I can modify your quote there to make it accurate so you can see what I mean.
I am master of my life. I am responsible for my own actions and for contributing to a just society. I’m responsible for not adding to the burdens of anyone else, especially the less fortunate, whether through my lifestyle or through day to day interaction. I can’t just say a few prayers and have someone wave a magic holy wand to wipe away bad outcomes from screwing up; I actually have to make amends if I want to make things right. If I claim someone is standing in my way, that’s a cop-out.
I’ve never read an "official" definition of agnostic, but I think you’ve nailed it there. "knowing what the interaction is" IS religion. If you don’t believe your holy book encompasses your interaction with your deity, I’m not sure where you are going with all this. Are you actually challenging yourself with all these questions and not us?
El Cid
Personally, the major hurdle with me is not whether or not people believe in God, but what kind of God do they believe in.
If it something that seems vastly more advanced and mature than we are, usually that’s pretty okay.
If it seems like your typical a**hole with super-powers and an attitude problem, that’s a problem.
I don’t believe there’s a God, but if there is one, he’d be a real a**hole to have a problem with me not "believing" in him / it. In fact, any God worth believing in would doubtlessly prefer me to use my brain as much as possible, rather than getting all spooky on him.
Martin
Um, that’s not atheism. That’s narcissim.
Maybe you need to go read a book or something. Atheists believe that far more is out of our control than theists, because we lack the basic provision that the universe was created for our benefit. From a universal perspective, I’m no more special than an ant. Theists don’t believe that. They generally believe that God created all of this for the benefit of mankind, and therefore they feel that their sphere of influence is more privileged than that of other beings. Factor in religious and other privileges justified by religion (as we’re battling in CA with Prop 8), and you have individuals feeling that their sphere of influence is more privileged than other humans.
That’s why the ‘secular humanist’ term is evoked so often toward atheists (and fairly, most of the time, I would add). Most atheists believe that they are no more special than any other person. Theists almost never are willing to take on the label of ‘humanist’ because it breaks the privilege benefit of religion. It’s not "I am the master of my own destiny and nothing is going to stand in my way.", it’s "We’re all in this together, and nobody is going to wave their invisible hand and save our asses."
The notion that most things are out of our control is everpresent to atheists. We don’t worship something in the hope that will change. We merely accept it and focus on those things that are in our control. Isn’t prayer the very definition of refusal to accept that things may be out of our control by asking for an agent to intervene on any and all matters? There is always the understanding that the agent may not intervene, but by assuming that the agent /could/ intervene if we do these acts, it’s an admission that we can influence anything if only we follow the right recipe.
srv
Your faith, or lack of it, is an STD.
Shade Tail
@John S.:
Yes, really, John. Like back at comment #54 where you categorized Incertus without anything more than one very brief post. I’m not surprised to see you trying to deny that you do this, but anyone who wants to can scroll up and see it for themselves.
Oh, and again with the ‘responding to a single out-of-context line’ dishonesty. Seriously, after doing this twice now, you don’t need to concede the point. You lost the debate the instant you had to resort to this. Not to mention that you now resort to the ad hominem fallacy by pretending that what we say isn’t valid merely because this is the internet.
gocart mozart
Actually Punchy, they are not. You can believe in both science and God. Not all theists are stupid and only stupid people refuse to believe in evolution.
Far Left American Hater Incertus
@John S.: Which has the square-root of jack fuck all to do with my point, which is that your definition of the arrogance of atheists has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with being an asshole.
Brachiator
@John S.:
This reminds me a lot of people who don’t "understand" homosexuality because they think that the default setting for being human is to be straight, and that gays either made the wrong choice or somehow got traumatized into "becoming" gay.
I am neither cynical, nor arrogant, nor jaded. i am probably not a hard core atheist, but I am a rigorous agnostic. As far as I can see, there is no evidence of a Supreme Being, and the question about whether or not there is a god absolutely bores me. But even if there were a deity, since we presumably have been given free will, there does not seem to be any particular reason that we have to acknowledge or worship a deity, or to make our lives subservient to a deity’s whims.
What if, for example, our universe was created as a science project by an entity that was superior to us, but who is the dumbest kid in class when compared to his or her fellow entities?
People who are religious or spiritual or whatever simply cannot claim that they have some special understanding or connectedness to the universe, and that anyone who doesn’t share that view is somehow suspect. It comes very close to the jaded cynicism and arrogance of the Republicans who are pushing their noxiously exclusionary vision of faith and patriotism.
demimondian
@Far Left American Hater Incertus: Hmm. No, Hater — may I call you Hater? — that’s not quite true.
In order to be a true "atheist", at least in the sense of Christian theology, you must actively believe in non-existence of certain [Tt]hings, [Ee]ntities or [Bb]eings. That’s quite different from the broadly held agnosticism common throughout the world. In the extreme form, one can be quite Christian and not believe in the an interventionist God *in the modern world*, merely in historical times.
(One can’t quite go all Richard Dawson, since there’s this small matter of the Incarnation. But you can get awfully close.)
If you go back to the basic creeds, as a matter of fact, the Athanasian creed talks only about basic beliefs about the structure of the Trinity. Similarly, the Nicene creed speaks a lot about the relationship among the Persons, but doesn’t say anything about modern intervention. Efficacy of Prayer? Feh!
Now, comrade jakevitch, can I have a cookie?
Grumpy Code Monkey
Atheists have exactly as much in common with each other as people who don’t collect stamps have in common with each other.
I’ve met the kinds of atheists John S. talks about as well. But if they’re the only kinds of atheists he’s met, then he hasn’t really been exposed to the breadth of the atheist spectrum.
There are almost as many kinds of and reasons for atheism as there are atheists. Yes, some people adopt atheism as a reaction to an overly religious upbringing. Some atheists are narcissistic assholes. Some are nihilists (obligitory Big Lebowski reference goes here). Some see religion in any form as a pernicious influence that must be abolished. But then there are some of us who just never understood the fuss; even as a young child, I did not experience the same feelings as others did when praying or sitting in church. As of yet, I have had no personal revelatory experience convincing me that God is real. If there is a God, He is acting in a way that’s completely indistinguishable from purely naturalistic phenomena, so my de facto position is that He’s not there (Occam’s razor and all that).
I’m a little-a atheist. My lack of belief is my own, arrived at through personal introspection, and I don’t give a crap what you do or do not believe, up to the point where your beliefs compel you to harass others. I don’t have a problem with things like "In God We Trust" or "Under God"; for me, those are just slightly gaudy decorations, unnecessary but not, by themselves, harmful. I do have a problem with being constitutionally barred from holding state office, or with politicians trying to score points by painting me as some evil motherfucker out to destroy America or something.
Dork
Shorter John: I hate understanding stuff, so I have God do it for me. God did a great job on my Toyota Corrola.
Comrade Jake
@tavella:
Careful. Not everyone who applies rational observation to the world is an atheist. There are plenty of top-notch scientists, for example (raises hand), who are Christians, or Muslims, or insert religion.
As a scientist, I have a pretty firm grasp of the limits of human understanding and comprehension. Rational though is limited. There exist phenomena in this universe that are beyond our current understanding, and will likely forever be beyond our understanding. Now, that doesn’t necessarily mean there’s a God. But faith and reason are two very different things, and they need not be contradictory.
Martin
No, he has no doubt that there are greater forces, he merely doesn’t claim to know what they are. I’d consider that just plain-vanilla ‘theism’.
Agnostic simply proclaims to not know if there is or isn’t a higher power, but wouldn’t proclaim that there is one.
les
And you made some claim on being logical? Your statement, even as snark, has no connection to the precedent. Neither your original remark, arrogant and condescending as it was, nor my reply even implicated anything about tolerance or acceptance of views. You have elevated personal incredulity to the status of a god; I accept that, even though I think it is illogical, ignorant and lazy. You have demonstrated that you are given to over generalization, sloppy and lazy thinking and illogical argument; fine. You might even be interesting to have a beer with. However, your inability to comprehend the world without god and your arrogant belief that others’ failure to recognize the truth of your position is evidence of character flaws, bodes ill for deep conversation.
And really, if your god isn’t watching your every little move for error, what’s with not being able to write its name?
demimondian
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
or as theists have in common with one another, frankly.
Do I believe that Sarah Palin is a Christian? Yes, I do. I believe that she is also an arrogant, narcissicistic, nihilist, who clearly has no regard for the well-being of her fellows.
Also.
Tsulagi
I’d drink to that.
My mother has enough Jesus and religion in her for the rest of the family. But irrespective of that, she has a heart of gold. Out of respect for that I tell her I’m agnostic. But really, mom, I lean atheist. Sorry, Jesus, don’t tear up.
Tom65
Liddy Dole has been sucking the government tit her entire adult life (apart from the eight years she spent mismanaging the American Red Cross). That’s a hard habit to break, and she’ll apparently do anything to keep it coming.
Comrade Stuck
I am neither Atheist nor agnostic, but am firmly against the notion that conforms to the idea that a book written 2000 years ago in riddles, often in contradiction with themselves, must be followed in order to be right with someones elses idea of God. I believe we must fight these people every day, lest the self proclaimed righteous make all our lives a living hell.
And this also applies to any religion that demands fealty to any Holy Book.
Far Left American Hater Incertus
@demimondian:
Reread that sentence, figure out what the logical problem is in it, and then get back to me. (Hint–it’s in the restrictive clause.)
b. hussein canuckistani (comrade)
What if I came to atheism after years of thinking, observation and study? Does that make me arrogant, cynical, or.. what was the other choice?
Is it arrogant to think I’m not that big a deal in a universe with a hundred billion galaxies, each with a hundred billion stars and FSM-knows how many planets?
Clor
John S:
Okay, I’ll bite. I don’t doubt that you’ve had deep conversations with atheists about their beliefs. Fine. And perhaps in your conversations, they’ve come off as pretty douchy. Okay, I can see that some atheists may be douchy. It would be rather fantastical to assume that all atheists are sparkly and oh so cool. But now you’re approaching ALL atheists through this douchy prism based on your previous encounters. And that is why you’re getting the reception you’re complaining about.
les
@Brachiator:
May I invite you to a meeting of the First Church of the Agnostic, Apathetic? We don’t know, we don’t care.
David Hunt
Almost on topic and even closer to the topic the thread has drifted to: I just figured out what another one of the attacks the Right uses against Obama will be.
After he’s elected (God willing) ;), we’ll be hearing the bible that he’s sworn in on is actually a disguised Koran. They’re never going to let that Secret Muslim meme go. We’ll be hearing it on our deathbeds along with how Hilary Clinton killed her lesbian lover, Vince Foster.
Llelldorin
John S.–
I think you have to be more careful than you’ve been so far to avoid creating a "god of the gaps." By holding up "I don’t understand the origin of life" as an argument against atheism, you place your concept of God precisely in those things that you don’t understand. That’s a really poor concept of God, because it tends to turn "attempting to understand the universe" into a direct attack on God, which ought to be absurd.
"The Big Bang" is at least a safer gap, given that by definition we can’t conduct measurements prior to that point (the whole definition of time gets tricky at that point, so "prior" is hard to even define). The origin of life is a very, very foolish gap to hang your concept of God upon, because there’s every reason to believe that it will eventually be well understood. If that happens, will you be forced to either deny well-understood science or abandon your faith? If so, you need to rethink your concept of God profoundly.
John S.
Wrong. So wrong.
Do you recall Darwin’s observation of the moths that changed color to adapt to the soot-covered tree bark? I suppose it is UNPOSSIBLE! that G-d created all the living things and that over the millions of years since that they have changed, adapted and – gasp – evolved to meet the demands of their environment.
Clearly this is radical thinking.
Face
Most of us dont trust the highly religious because the mere fact of believing involves a complete suspension of logic and reason.
And we’ve had a complete lack of those in DC for 8 years, and we’ve gotten fucked because of it. Hence the apprehension.
Martin
Among other reasons, it reduces all scientists to fools for chasing after knowledge by arguing that God has made them beyond understanding.
Science wouldn’t exist if not for the (at least temporary) presence of ‘incredible’.
Clor
Punchy:
The idea of Creation and evolution are not exclusive. The Catholic Church acknowledges the story of Creation is not to be taken as fact, but rather as allegory. Evolution isn’t a dirty word to Catholics who know their theology.
John S.
You had me at "douchy people".
I’ve been at Balloon Juice for years. I know how it is around here.
Dennis - SGMM
If G*d created the universe and all then why do churches need collection plates?
Comrade Jake
@Comrade Stuck:
Christian fundamentalists are pretty far out there. I think many Christians view the Bible as I do: it is the word of God as transcribed by (fundamentally flawed) human beings. In other words, it is imperfect. Many people’s faith is one based in doubt, that attempts to reconcile or make sense of this imperfection.
Allow me to quote Obama on this score:
demimondian
Since it’s a term of art, the restrictive clause is appropriate.
By atheist, I take you to mean someone who holds that the existence or non-existence of a divine entity is irrelevant in daily life, and who feels that moral decisions can and should, be made in complete disinterest of any putative eternal consequences. Is that a reasonable summary of your position.
Face
why is god here spelled "G-d"? Is it considered bad taste just spelling his name? Huh?
smiley
There was a book published some years ago named, I believe, something like The End of Science. I didn’t read it but I believe the basic thesis was that we already know everything and any additional discoveries will be minor compared to the great discoveries of the past. It was one big excuse to stop asking question, to quit probing the edges.
That’s one of the things that bothers me about religion. It gives some people the excuse to stop looking and rely on a divine creator for the ultimate answers (not saying this about anyone here — John S. included). It’s also one reason that I’ve never understood how a scientist can be religious, except for maybe a deist.
kommrade jakevich
Organized religion is just that. An organization, a group of people. And not just any people, but people who like to tell other people what to do. Throw money and power into the mix and things like the history of the Roman Catholic church make a lot more sense. A nasty, bloody sense, but sense all the same.
I’ve read the Bible, apparently far more closely than the turd chompers who want to make it mandatory reading for school children, and I honestly don’t know where they get a lot of the shit they gibber about. It just isn’t in there.
Or they’re just plain EVIL. Remember, to the tiny brained, Not Like Me = BAD.
Comrade Darkness
Someone already pointed out your lack of honestly engaging the debate so it need not bear repeating. But I’ll point out that, intentionally or not, you did start this conversation insultingly, so claiming the responses were uppity and therefore proved your point is a bit specious. Perhaps you wanted to provoke a reaction so you could feel safe in your narrow beliefs.
@Martin: Ah, good point. I just read that as not at all sounding like an adherent "person of the book" and jumped to the obvious middle ground. But you’re right. That’s a step more on the believer side than agnostic.
Martin
What were the first living things that God created?
Comrade Jake
@smiley:
FWIW, I am a scientist (with roughly 1000 citations to his name) and a Christian. There is really no contradiction there.
As for the book you mention, it’s piles of nonsense.
marjowil
I never know what to put down in those surveys when they ask if I’m Christian (Protestant, non-evangelical) or Wiccan or none of the above. Usually in a room full of Christians I feel uncomfortable, and in a room full of atheists, I feel defensive. Guess I’m just neurotic or oppositional or whatever. What I believe doesn’t fit into any boxes, at least not without spilling over into something else. The whole topic just gives me a headache.
My son is 10 and leaning atheist. I tell him that’s a choice everyone has to make for himself. Mostly I want him to be open-minded, as I try to be.
redbeardjim
@John S.:
Well, first off, that wasn’t Darwin.
Second off, they didn’t "change color to adapt to the soot-covered tree barks". The dark-colored variants were already in the population, they were just better able to hide against sooty bark than the light-colored versions, so they survived/reproduced at a higher rate as their environment changed.
Third, you can suppose anything you want about what "G-d" did or didn’t do. Just don’t pretend that your personal incredulity is evidence for it.
jrg
John S. – Please tell me more about what I believe. Your ability to speak for other people is truly a gift, and in no way reeks of arrogance or stupidity.
Far Left American Hater Incertus
@demimondian: You don’t see a problem with defining atheism in terms of Christian theology? I’m an atheist–I look at Christian theology with, at best, bemusement. I appreciate what it has done for Western art and literature, but it has nothing to do with what I believe or don’t believe about the nature of the universe.
smiley
@Comrade Jake:
Jake,
I’m a scientist too (with 10’s of publications to my name ;^)). I’ve know many Christian, observant Jew, Muslim, Hindu and maybe a Shinto or two scientists (oh yeah, a Buddhist too). I was just stating my own personal beliefs.
kommrade jakevich
Dude, I think Tunch tried to eat the hamsters that power the site.
Comrade Jake
@smiley:
What’s you h-index? Mine is 14.
Comrade Jake
@smiley:
What’s your h-index? Mine is 14.
J.D. Rhoades
This isn’t about atheism. It’s about lying. I’m not debating here whether or not there’s’ a God. Kay Hagen believes there is, Liddy Dole calls her "godless" and that’s the point.
Hagen is apparently threatening legal action. With all due respect Kay, fuck that. It makes you look weak. Hit back, and hit back hard. Get your pastor, your fellow elders, anyone who can testify to your faith to tell the truth and call "SHAME" on Liddy Dole for this sleazy ad. Point out what a desperate, shameful, and yes, Un-Christian move this is by Dole, who as far as I know hasn’t done a damned thing in her years in Washington except take up space.
Cris v.3.1
Yep. As far as I know, it’s primarily a Jewish thing — to respect the holiness of the name, they avoid both saying and writing the name of the Lord in secular contexts.
I think some Christians have adopted it, maybe out of a sense of syncretism.
Martin
Nah, God is angry with our discussion and is making electrons flow more slowly.
ImJohnGalt
What we’re intolerant of are people who come and shit on us unbelievers as being only one of a) cynical, b) arrogant, or c) too jaded.
I think I’ll just show up at a random church one day and tell everyone there that they’re retarded, weak, and dependent, and get all affronted when they don’t welcome my opinions with open arms.
The fact that you say you majored in biology and yet don’t understand how complex systems could arise from simpler organisms over time tells me pretty much all I need to know about your mental faculties.
Comrade Stuck
Well stated and ditto for me@Comrade Jake: .
I’m not sure if the Bible is the work of God or not. But I do know there are passages amongst the riddles and contradictions that strike me as wise and without ambiguity. So I’m not anti-Bible, nor anti-religious Per Se, just in opposition to those who are without doubt, as you say.
b. hussein canuckistani (comrade)
A hundred and fifty years ago, it was carved in stone that no one would ever understand the composition of stars. That prediction went the way of almost all negative predictions in science. I wouldn’t discount the ability of high-energy physics to make testable predictions about the nature of the singularity within the next century.
Comrade Darkness
Damn, I think he’s gone.
John Cole you put the so called "John S" up to this, didn’t you, to liven things up? *hmf*
Btw, I’m getting these errors at the top of the page: "Database error: Deadlock found when trying to get lock; try restarting transaction
SQL: INSERT IGNORE INTO
wp_firestats_urls(url,md5,add_time,search_engine_id,search_terms) VALUES (‘unknown’,MD5(url),NOW(),NULL ,NULL )" They appear when the site is deadly slow, so I suspect that when the site gets slow in traffic this is the problematic process.MikeL
THE TEXAS CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1. BILL OF RIGHTS
Sec. 4. RELIGIOUS TESTS. No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.
Does His Holiness count?
Mr. Poppinfresh
@John S.:
You probably don’t realize this, but you’re coming off as a condescending dick. The vast majority of people you’ve been insulting have shown little to no hostility to religion beyond a desire to avoid its influence. If you’re actually trying to have the kind of constructive discussion you claim you want, I’d suggest taking a step back from the keyboard, making some hot cocoa, and thinking about how you communicate your religious beliefs to try and be more engaging before you post another self-involved, arrogant rebuttal.
And before you bother tossing any more off-handed suppositions: yes, Dorothy, I am religious. A practicing Daoist, if that somehow matters to you.
Xanthippas
Boy, Republicans never do a better job of demonstrating why they should lose than when they’re actually losing.
Dennis - SGMM
I got this one:
Database error: Lock wait timeout exceeded; try restarting transaction
SQL: UPDATE
wp_firestats_urlsSETsite_id= 1 WHEREid= 903It wasn’t quite WordPress Error but I did get a little nostalgic.
Punchy
Uh….what? You’re only making them non-exclusive by suddenly completely changing the "meaning" of Creationism?
I’ll make it easy — either God put us here, or we evolved. Dont bring up this "God made a moth, who later changed color" crap, because as you work backwards, you’ll have to choose whether the original moth evolved or was God-made. And at that point, they are mutually exclusive.
demimondian
@Far Left American Hater Incertus: No, seeing as how it’s a term with a long history, going back to ancient Greece. You may have chosen to reuse it, but it remains a term of art, with a well-established historical meaning.
Sorry, dude, but you’ll have to get up earlier to pull that one off.
Calouste
@Delia:
Monotheism hadn’t reached Greece yet in Euripides’ days, so the correct quote would be:
"Those whom the Gods wish to destroy, they first make mad."
Or maybe this is another example of the Orwellian "Who he controls the past, control the future. Who he controls the present, controls the past."
Brian J
Oh the love…why the hell is Tom DeLay on "Hardball" spouting this bullshit? There’s no possible way that Barney Frank is a mainstream liberal while Obama is a radical Marxist. There’s no possible way that Obama, along with Reid and Pelosi, wants to raise taxes to 80 percent.
It’s time for a new open thread.
J.D. Rhoades
Damn it, y’all, YOU’RE SOLVING THE WRONG PROBLEM!
Onihanzo
The GOP have been really big on impersonators this year.
This one from CO-Rep Marilyn Musgrave has only recently started airing:
When you run out of strawmen, hire an actor I suppose.
gex
I for one, do not trust the reasons people reject the idea of invisible flying unicorns. Bitter, bitter, anti-unicorn people should not be trusted.
But seriously, atheism is NOT a religion. The burden should not be on atheists to prove that God does not exist. The burden should be on the religious that God exists. But of course that is not what religion is about. It is about faith.
I don’t enjoy living in a country where most people think it is preferable to believe things without a rational basis than to be skeptical by all means. But apparently most Americans find this an admirable trait. And most Americans believed the administration when they said the war would be short, Iraqis would greet us with candy and flowers, and the war would pay for itself. There’s a price to be paid for believing things simply because you want to believe them.
Svensker
So the bottom line seems to be, pretty much all Dems ARE Godless?
Comrade Jake
@Brian J:
A better question is why isn’t Delay behind bars. I suspect he’s on Hardball for the perceived entertainment value. Sigh.
kommrade jakevich
Well they’ve been imitating a functional political party for years…
Joshau Norton
Speaking of glitches, is it just me, or has the Black Screen of Death ceased to be a problem? I haven’t seen it for a while now on my Firefox browser, but I’ve been tweaking the bejebus out of it lately.
My next request is for a link to edit other people’s messages. I promise to use it only for good.
Far Left American Hater Incertus
@demimondian: I don’t think so. It’s a term of art as regards Christian theology, but not necessarily in the larger world. I don’t recognize the authority of Christian theology as regards my personal belief system, so whatever definition they choose is irrelevant to me.
And a quick question–how far back does the term go in ancient Greece? In my experience, "ancient" refers to pre-New Testament, which would make it pre-Christian. If that’s so, then why is a Christian definition of "atheism" a term of art?
Clor
Punchy:
Why couldn’t God have put us here and let us evolve? There’s no (AFAIK) evidence at this time to rule it out.
In any case, what I was trying to say was that the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding the story of Creation (as described in Genesis) does not contradict evolution. Being a "good" Catholic doesn’t require that one reject evolution for contradicting the Word of God, like what some evangelicals would have you believe.
Comrade Darkness
@Joshau Norton: You mean THIS function?
Vincent
Punchy, the idea of God as a clock designer who simply put everything into motion is not some new, radical idea. It’s very old.
You’re right that Creationism as in the earth is only 6000 years old and evolution are not compatible. That’s different from saying that God started off the process of evolution.
It’s okay if you don’t agree with that but there’s nothing logically inconsistent about it. The laws of physics either came out of nothing or somebody wrote the programming. I’m agnostic when it comes to this issue, but I can’t say the latter isn’t a possibility.
Comrade Stuck
I guess I belong to the Stanley Kubrick school that suggests that somewhere along the way, and not necessarily the first cell, something else was introduced into the mix providing something the organized elements in a living cell could not. I’m a trained biologist too, that started out believing that science could explain everything involved with life and the Universe. I don’t believe that any longer, but don’t have the answer and figure maybe that’s why it is for a reason, which is also a mystery.
** However, I do know that republicans can’t govern our country in a competent manner, and for today, that is all I need to know.
Brian J
It’s just…so fucking stupid that I feel it’s blinding me. Are we really supposed to believe that this man was a radical Marxist but taught for years at the University of Chicago? I know he wasn’t in the economics department, but still, something tells me that if he had positions in line with those of Dennis Kucinich, we wouldn’t be seeing people from that university who say they may vote for him.
There are a lot of questions about what policies are the right ones to go forward with. I’m more than willing to hear criticism–sensible, Reason magazine-style criticism, not Ann Coulter-style criticism–of his policies. I’m also willing to hear problems that the left has with his plans. The thing that really gives me confidence is that despite his inexperience in governing, he’s shown himself to be serious, engaged, and intelligent. McCain himself has shown himself to be lacking in all of those areas. Obama is definitely a roll of the dice, but after watching these two guys go at it, I’m more confident than ever that he’s the guy. I think I’d feel this way whether or not I was a staunch Democrat.
As far as Delay, yes, that’s a very good fucking question.
Svensker
I got this, too, today.
The Black Screen of Death is now history.
Chet
They do not want to deal with the possibility that something can be out of their control.
Inventing a magic sky-man who can break the laws of physics at literally any time to grant you your fervently-desired wish doesn’t strike me as a way to deal with the possibility that something can be out of your control.
You display the typical breathtaking arrogance and projection of the theist. No one is more aware of what is, and isn’t, within one’s control than the atheist, because he doesn’t live his life under the delusion that the rules of the universe are being re-written on his behalf, just for the asking.
Chet
But faith and reason are two very different things, and they need not be contradictory.
Uh-huh. Do you practice faith-based science? Or science-based religion?
No? Then it what sense are they not contradictory if you have to wear your rational-hat at work and your faith-hat at home? You’re living a double-life of the mind, and you don’t even seem to see it. I guess, to you, rationality is just your day job. What a pity.
Face
From the looks of his wrinkles, John McCain.
Brian J
So full of WIN.
Grumpy Code Monkey
Yeah, in it’s place we get the Database Errors Of Reduced Functionality, which doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Chet
Apparently this is a high treasonous offense that requires the denizens of Balloon Juice to hang me in effigy.
Or to disagree with you.
It’s ok. I know that most theists can’t seem to tell the difference.
The Other Steve
I’m with the "both" crowd.
Place this in context with the Soviet Union was against the Big Bang theory and would not allow it to be taught in schools because they felt it supported the God created the Universe theory.
I’m getting pretty sick and tired of Lizzy Dole creationists defining what Christianity is, and idiots like Punchy falling for it.
Comrade Stuck
You can’t make this shit up. Looks like Joe the Plumbob is going to Nashville to make a C&W record.
Man, this is one CrazyCool election!
The Other Steve
Deep thought for the day.
When we take tax dollars and give them to Lockheed Martin to buy a fighter jet for the military.
We’re redistributing wealth
smiley
@Comrade Jake:
I’ve been out of the grant-chasing business since 2000 and teaching, mostly, at a relatively small university (and loving it). I no longer have access to ISI but this site says my h-index is 8, with the number of citation of our papers ranging from 44 to 4. I have no idea if it’s accurate. Plug in your name and see if it is. BTW, you know about the criticisms of the H-ref, right?
Punchy
I disagree completely. If you work backwards, you must continue to ask yourself where God actually started. Did he throw in those amino acids in the ocean, or just make the N and C and Os that were necessary? But wait….physics tell us those heavier elements were actually formed by stars, by the fusion of different nuclei. So did God make the stars, the fusion’ing of atoms, or what? But wait! Stars were very logically formed from the energy of the Big Bang, so it appears that God didn’t need to form stars at all.
True evolution theory (on Earth) demands a walkback to (at least) to the presence of water, amino acids, and probably reasonable temps. Everything that follows (by Darwinian theory) involved random mutations and selective pressures. Where, exactly, does God come in?
Cassidy
@John S.:
Give up. You have broached a topic that people are as emotionally tied to as Christians are to Christ. You are foolish to expect rational conversation from people who are so emotionally invested in their particular belief system, that they cannot handle any amount of criticism.
"Help, I’m being oppressed…"
Punchy
OT:
Unfuckingbelievable…
kommrade jakevich
Holy fuck! Where’s the bottom of this Goddamned rabbit hole?!
KRK
I haven’t watched the ad, so I don’t know if the comparison holds, but since reading the description that a Hagan impersonator at the end says "There is no God," I can’t stop thinking about the Arrested Development episode where George Bluth, in the role of God, runs away from the "Living Classics" pageant and the crowd starts shouting "Where is God?" and an older, country club-looking woman stands up and says "There is no God!"
That’s how I picture the ad ending. As a result, I can’t help chuckling when I think about it, even though I’ve been no fan of "Liddy" Dole since her Red Cross days.
smiley
@Clor:
That’s called deism. It’s a religious position that has been around for a while. Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers were Deists. Look it up.
Onihanzo
Which is why I agree with your method and believe something very similar. Every theist I’ve ever met has either been a child molester, an adulterer or a closet homosexual. Thus I don’t think it’s too specious to say that persons who believe in God have those beliefs because they fall within one of my three previously mentioned categories.
Of the three, which one defines you best, John S.? If you feel two of them are more applicable than just one, feel free take another one up. I’ve certainly seen that happen so I certainly won’t judge you for being an adulterer AND a child rapist. It would just confirm my already stalwart body of research.
And while you might find my categories to be a bit lacking in proof, I’m not about to argue whether or not those categories are myopic or even logically sound. Anecdotal as it may be, it’s what I’ve witnessed and there’s not a damn thing you can do to sway me from inerrant truth of them.
And besides, any protests about them would just confirm my belief that you fit within the closet homosexual tier.
Josh Hueco
What’s a bigger miracle, that a sentient, anthropomorphic being created us and this world, or that a seemingly random and meaningless, multi-billion-year-long process of physics, chemistry and biology have, against infinitesimal odds, resulted in this staggeringly beautiful and complex universe, natural world and us thinking and emotional animals?
Svensker
Perhaps a bit of self-reflection would be in order?
Comrade Darkness
If the rules of the universe aren’t being re-written on our behalf, how can Obama possibly win on Tuesday?
Cassidy
Sounds like a former altar boy. I can see being an atheist after that.
Llelldorin
I’m not writing it off, I just think it’s more likely that the origin of life will be addressed first.
I still think my overall point is good: it’s insane to define God as "The explanation for anything that I don’t personally understand," because that attitude makes understanding anything at all an assault on God. I’m personally agnostic, but I refuse to believe in a God of Dumb (no matter how many worshippers He may have here on Earth.)
Llelldorin
Argh… inadvertent double post.
dbrown
Boy John, you certainly stepped into it, didn’t you? Judging anyone’s belief is a lost cause and foolish. People’s reasons for any belief are complex and very personal – to reduce any ones belief to any simplified statement is awfully dangerous and suicidal in a blog.
For people who are referencing the size of the Universe, current scientific evidence indicates (COBE measurements, if interested, try these words in google) the Universe is infinite in size (yes, that’s a 1 followed by a lot of zeros … .) Our observable Universe is about 66 billion light years in diameter.
As for beliefs, I bet every one has an option but a political commercial that calls a candidate an atheist is the kiss of death (pun intended) and is a dirty, low life maneuver that only a repub-a-thug would do. As I said before, expect a lot more of this as the most truly ant-Christian scum that ever lied their way into being called human will crawl out from under the rocks they live under and run as repub-a-thugs spewing their hate like endless shit from their mouths and proclaim the word of God (or G-d if you are orthodox Jewish.)
Brachiator
@les:
Since I am also a card-carrying member of Procrastinators Anonymous, I happily accept your invitation, but may be late to the meeting.
Sorry, that dog won’t hunt. For the most part, I simply do not care whether a person believes in a deity. People believe all kinds of weird things, so there is usually no point in getting judgmental about it.
What I object to is the false idea that having religious faith is somehow "natural," and that non-belief is some form of social rebellion.
As can, also, disorganized religion, e.g., those who think that being "spiritual" is superior to being a church-goer.
As was once ascribed to the Japanese Samurai Musashi Miyamoto: I respect the gods, but I do not depend upon them.
Onihanzo
@Cassidy: Was never Catholic. Are you comfortable enough with explaining it?
John S.
Man, do I love this site.
HE’S A THEIST! HE’S A DICK! HE RAN AWAY! HE’S SCARED!
It’s called work, people. I can only post so much and be so much of a dick while I’m eating lunch.
And I’ll try not to judge all atheists by the majority of people freaking out here. That wouldn’t be fair.
But honestly, some of you people are more intolerant than the fucking evangelicals you despise so much.
milo
Cookies and Whiskey 24/7 !!!!111!!! Ain’t life grand. I think I’ll have a cookie and whiskey right now.
Oh, and Dole, she is an asshole. I believe it; I have faith in it; I can rationalize it. I arrogantly and cynically and jadedly declare it.
edit: Back now: the whiskey is smooth, the cookie is sweet, and Liddy is still an asshole.
John S.
Then I’d say you have much more of a problem with people of faith than I do with atheists, Brian.
Onihanzo
John S. try to take some responsibility for your solipsistic bullshit. You’ve picked a fight with a hornet’s nest of personal worldviews and are either too stupid to understand or too arrogant to grasp why you’ve been stung.
Comrade Darkness
26! Whoo hoo.
This calls for a beer.
Cassidy
@Onihanzo: Ba dum bum….ting!
Lighten up. This whole my non-existent god is bigger than your god thing is retarded.
John S.
Sorry, John, but that is pretty much the stock argument here in regards to "theists". Your point hath been obliterated by the good commenters of BJ (yourself included).
For the record, even though the atheist horde has taken umbrage with my classification of their beliefs as stemming from cynicism, arrogance or jadedness I have not once called somebody retarded, stupid or weak — which is more than I can say for most of you.
But hey, this is Balloon Juice. Rant on!
gwangung
Most Republican supporters wouldn’t know University Chicago from the University of California at Berkeley. "It’s one o’ them damn elitist universities ‘n I ain’t havin’ none o’ it!"
gocart mozart
John S, God, is spelled GOD not g-d. You won’t go to hell if you spell it right. Trust me. I would not lie to you. Have faith.
John S.
Hey, try to fucking read for comprehension rather than for hyperventilation.
And that word – solipsism – I don’t think you know what it means. I don’t think that the only thing I know is what is in my mind and I do not reject other people’s viewpoints and arguments (there have been some good ones scattered throughout the reflexive teeth-gnashing).
Unfortunately you and most of the horde have jumped on a talking point because it suits you better to rage against someone you think is some crazy Christian conservative rather than try to understand my ACTUAL point of view.
Talk about solipsism.
Onihanzo
@John S.
Oh well then hell.. that’s okay then. I mean, at least you classified their beliefs in a backhanded and condescending manner and not in an outright insulting way.
**golfclap**
John S.
Sorry, old habit born of Judaism to not take the name of the Lord in vain – even in written form.
Old habits often die hard. And Jews don’t believe in Hell.
smiley
Thanks. We can all say anything.
Comrade Darkness
Projection, dude. Some of us were trying to have a discussion, but you suspiciously dodged every single point made, no matter what tone it was made in, then proceeded to lump everyone into insulting categories again.
Balloon Juice, indeed.
John S.
I honestly did not intend for it to come off that way and I apologize if it did.
Sadly, I have yet to see anyone offer a rational argument for atheism here that doesn’t involve "you’re a stupid theist that believes in magic ponies and invisible men".
Care to buck the trend?
John S.
Right back at you, dude!
Comrade Darkness
There was one false drop, but there was also one missing reference with 78 cites that I added back in.
Google scholar says 22, I’ll admit.
John S.
You are right. The peppered moth study was not an observation made by Darwin, but is an excellent example of his theories of natural selection. I was mistaken in conflating the two.
You’ve cut me to the quick!
redbeardjim
And you’ve continued your practice of cherry-picking the most trivial part of any response, snipping off a one-liner, and ignoring anything substantive. Can’t imagine why anyone would be annoyed by you.
Punchy
Pretty fucking sure I never brought up, discussed, nor judged any tenants of Christianity, TOS. no fucking clue what ure referring to.
Onihanzo
@John S.
That’s the piece de resistance right there. After shotgunning atheists with your three disdainful little definitions, you NOW apologize and magically figure you’ve earned the right to hear how any atheist came to their worldview.
That’s fucking smooth, that is.
Best of luck to you on that one.
Clor
Smiley:
There’s no need for snark. I know what Deism is.
Jesus Christ on a stick!
Duke of Earl
God created Man because He was lonely and wanted someone to have a stimulating conversation with.
Formal religion is God’s filter for winnowing out credulous people who would not be capable of having a stimulating conversation with Him. Being constantly venerated and worshiped is *boring*, it’s much more fun to talk to someone who will challenge you.
It’s as good a theory as any and I find it really chaps a lot of theist’s ‘nads.
Notorious P.A.T.
Not me, but in my city there are campaign signs reading "Frank Reynolds for Judge" that always give me a chuckle.
Link
smiley
@Clor: @Clor:
This medium of communication is truly amazing. No snark was intended.
John S.
@ Onihanzo:
My three "disdainful" definitions have mostly been justified by the good commenters here, including YOU. I apologized because I did not expect the shitstorm that followed, and I am not by nature a person that goes out of their way to insult or hurt others. If I do, I apologize for it. There is no ulterior motive here.
If you have a worldview that doesn’t amount to "theists are daddy-loving babies" or "anyone who believes in G-d is a moron", kindly share it.
Or shut the fuck up.
@redbeardjim:
I missed where you had something of substance to say besides cherry-picking the most trivial part of any response or snipping off a one-liner (which of course, I am also guilty of).
By all means, enlighten me.
TenguPhule
TenguPhule
There are a lot of religous people who are assholes.
Ergo, using your line of logic, all religious people must be classified as assholes.
TenguPhule
kommrade jakevich
@Onihanzo: That’s cookie monster’s schtick:
1. Issue proactive statement.
2. Feign surprise people don’t eat the nice shit sandwich while making nom nom sounds.
3. Swoon at how rude everyone is being.
4. Apology.
5. Prepare another shit sandwich and wheat bread and see if anyone will take a bite this time.
[sigh]
Darrell, where are you?!
TenguPhule
Corrected.
steelhead
This campaign tactic will fail. I was accused in high school of "not being religious enough" to give the Baccalaureate speech. The outrage was intense and in the end I gave a speech that was accepted as a positive, well reasoned response to the bigoted theocratic minority.
John S.
@tenguphule:
Really, what is your point? You’re an asshole, I’m an asshole, we’re all assholes – so what?
Like a child who wanders into a theater halfway into a movie, you have no clue what the fuck is going on, so don’t pretend to. Your snark will not save you.
Do you have a reason for being atheist other than what I haven’t covered (and that has caused such an uproar)? I’m all ears, but I won’t hold my breath.
@kommrade jakevich:
Do you have some rational defense of atheism, or just your usual bullshit? There’s plenty around here, so feel free to add more!
And a hearty fuck you for even daring to compare me to Darrell.
Honestly people, all I’ve seen is here is that atheists think "theists" are a joke, morons or worse. If any of you has an actual reason for being an atheist that isn’t contingent on what somebody else thinks, I’d love to hear it.
Really.
Cassidy
I honestly don’t see the problem w/ atheists. But those damned wiccans…
TenguPhule
Shorter John S: I don’t understand. Therefore it must be god’s fault!
TenguPhule
Clearest description yet of John S.
Sure you’re not an atheist?
Cassidy
In all seriousness, I have had a lot of experiences (anecdotal, I know) that cause me to generally avoid atheists, wiccans, or any other follower of a quasi-religious sort, as they ususaly end up talking out their ass. By no means do I think they represent the community as a whole, and I’m sure their are some very nice, well adjusted hellborn-pagans out there. Unfortunately, the ones I’ve met, make me want to choke them with a rosary. They have tended to be as obnoxious as Conservative Christians, insisting that their world-view is correct and that I must validate their views by listening to the drone for a while.
kommrade jakevich
@John S.:
Clearly you missed where I said I’m not an atheist, but here’s my rational defense of anything people want to believe (or not):
Who cares? Provided your belief system (or lack thereof) doesn’t drive you to fuck with people, have at it.*
Now, I’ve got chocolate chip, oatmeal raisin and peanut butter. What’ll it be?
*Telling people who fuck with you to shut the hell up doesn’t count as fucking with people. Don’t even try it.
gil mann
I’ll get right on that, just as soon as it becomes possible to prove a negative.
By the way, dude, someone explained to you exactly why you’re wrong about the moths, and you glossed right over it in favor of something irrelevant about attribution. Kind of ironic, you being religious and yet arguing in such bad faith.
Notorious P.A.T.
The rational position is not to believe in something until proof has been offered. No one has ever proven the existence of god. Therefore, atheism is the only rational position.
You’re welcome.
Chet
Perhaps a bit of self-reflection would be in order?
For John? Absolutely. The first question I’d like him to ask himself is "why am I calling atheists arrogant, when I’m the one simultaneously saying that some things are beyond the realm of human knowledge, but I know all about them?"
Sure, some things are beyond the current state of science, either temporarily or permanently (and I’d like the theists to tell me which is which, since they claim to know). The appropriate response to that is to say "I don’t know", not "I know it wants to be called God and answers my prayers."
gil mann
This thread is being Pharyngula for Halloween.
gwangung
Perhaps if you’d stop acting like an asshole, you’d get a better response.
redbeardjim
Made me laugh.
Onihanzo
What part of ‘you haven’t earned my respect or trust enough to hear it’ do you not grasp, you incredibly dense and obnoxious fuck? The respect or the earning portion of the statement?
You’re not even interested in the answer. You just want your insipid preconceptions validated. Hence your rickety A, B and C columns when it comes to people’s beliefs.
And the funniest part of all.. you apologize for it… and then swing it around again.
Intentionally insulting? Fucking A you are.
tripletee
Bees are vicious, and if you don’t believe me, I’ll prove it by poking a stick in this hive!
I think you just felt like trolling for the hell of it, because I know you’re smart enough to realize the "all of the [blanks] I know fall into these three categories" formulation is guaranteed to piss people off.
Wolfdaughter
I’m a cradle Episcopalian and involved in my church. However, I often say that one of the reasons I’m an Episcopalian is that I don’t have to believe a goddam thing. My particular church encourages members to explore their own beliefs, and no particular belief is prescribed or proscribed.
I do believe in a presence beyond myself, because I have personally experienced that presence. The closest I can define it, and words are inadequate, is love and light. But I can’t prove this, and I don’t expect others to believe as I do.
I know atheists, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindi, Buddhists, and Christians of various breeds. I have no problem with any as long as they treat others with respect and don’t attempt to force their beliefs (or lack thereof) on anyone else. We all have our own paths in life. As long as people are not doing wrong to others in their beliefs, or lack thereof, whatever they believe or don’t believe is their business, not mine.
To the original point of this thread: Libby Dole went WAY beyond the pale with the ad. It’s of a piece with how the Repubs in general have been acting in this election and for a long time. However, I also think it’s very regrettable that she believes that this ad would gain traction, and it does, at least with some people. I’m old enough to remember many elections where religion was never raised as an issue. If Obama is elected, I hope that this will start a return to civility in politics and in life in general, and a willingness to live and let live. I hope for a return to religion not being an issue in politics.
liberal
@John S.:
Occam’s razor.
charlotte
Favorite part of Liddy ad: "She took godless money."
Sign me up!
Chet
However, I often say that one of the reasons I’m an Episcopalian is that I don’t have to believe a goddam thing.
Look, I know you think that’s true, and my father-in-law says more or less the same thing about the Methodists – "they’re not fundamentalist, they’re not making me believe in anything counterfactual, separate magesteria, etc" – but I don’t really believe that. They may not expect you to believe in literal magic miracles but their are required tenants of faith for Episcopalians and Methodists, too.
I guarantee you if you went up to your clergy and told them that you didn’t believe in the existence of a god, and that Jesus in all likelihood did not exist in history, they would treat you as having a "crisis of faith", at the very least. I mean, you’re a Christian. At a minimum you believe that a man called Jesus existed, and that he espoused a philosophy that is recorded in the Bible. Right? Otherwise in what sense can you be a "follower of Christ"? If you don’t believe that the Bible accurately records the philosophy of Christ then what philosophy can you possibly be following?
The closest I can define it, and words are inadequate, is love and light.
I’ve experienced love, and I’ve experienced light. I’ve experienced something larger than myself – human community and fellowship.
I don’t see why it’s necessary to call that "God", and in doing so, provide intellectual cover to those who would use that word to kill.
Flaime
How about "There is no evidence for the existence of a god. That there are things that the human either cannot comprehend or has not found an explanation for does not constitute such evidence. It simply shows that humanity is, at this time, limited in what it can explain."
CWD
Fixed!
John S. please keep the demonization through generalization shtick alive. I am morally certain that we have not seen nearly enough of this in our society.
I also like the "I know atheists, why some of my best friends are atheists!" routine. Keep the hits comming baby!
CWD
Darn.
Blockquote tag closed in the wrong place and the edit didn’t load fast enough.
erg
dole’s godless american was actually hagan’s sunday school teacher.
http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A267990
(i dont know how to make it right.)
Judd
I fall in the very very small percent of americans that can call themselves atheist conservative(s)(i might be the only one). Tax, economic, size of government, strict adhearance to the constitution, and many other policies of conservatives I agree with, but I can’t stand most of the other people who hold my same views. Most are bigots who prey on the uneducated; who use fear and religon to push their agenda. I don’t know what has happened to my party, I don’t feel either party reflects my views.
And the last 8 years have really done severe harm to conservatives because I laugh at the idea that George W. Bush is a conservative. I don’t know what he is, but worthless.