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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War / Connect The Dot

Connect The Dot

by Tim F|  November 5, 20087:51 pm| 31 Comments

This post is in: War

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An American airstrike recently hit another wedding party in Afghanistan with dozens of casualties.

The U.S. military said today it was investigating a report that an American airstrike hit a wedding party, killing dozens of civilians and prompting new pleas from President Hamid Karzai that foreign forces try harder to avoid hurting and killing noncombatants.

I have lost count how many wedding parties we have destroyed in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is a large number. Having fighter patrols scouring the ground for armed insurgents to kill doesn’t mix with a region where every wedding ends with half the male guests firing in the air to celebrate. Our policy of fighting an insurgency with airpower makes tragic accidents like this inevitable, which is why fighting insurgents from the air is and has always been a stupid policy.

We do it because we lack the forces to patrol the old fashioned way. Granted that boot leather harly worked for the Soviet empire or the British one before that; fighting guerillas is a losing prospect any way you try it. However, the few times it has worked (e.g., Philipines) the strategy more resembled Jack Petraeus than Jack D. Ripper of the Strategic Air Command. We do it because the president wants a body count but he doesn’t want the political cost of American casualties, but by fighting guerillas from the air we accomplish little but to increase the number of Afghans who have had a relative killed by American carelessness.

If we want to fight in the mideast and central asia then we should follow strategies that are not transparently counterprodictive, because they inevitably lead to tragedies like this.

A deadly attack on a U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan in July was executed with the support of some local police and government leaders, as well as villagers, according to an internal U.S. military report.

Story B is the reason why I oppose the policy behind story A.

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31Comments

  1. 1.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    November 5, 2008 at 7:59 pm

    OT – I thought that I had quit crying for the day, but BBC America just did a thing on their 7pm nightly news thing that had me blubbering like a baby, again. It was pretty much a montage of the whole election, and was just incredible. Oh shit I am going to start crying again.

  2. 2.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 5, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    We dropped eight million tons of bombs on Vietnam, approximately three hundred tons for every man, woman and child in the country. And that worked out how?

  3. 3.

    pattonbt

    November 5, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    Hey….non election substance material to comment on (not meant as a slight in any way, I do – did? – love me some election grissle)!

    This story is exactly why I really did not want the US to engage in wars like this (although I support Afghanistan but not Iraq). The US does not have the stomach to fight wars right. The reliance of air power versus boots on the ground dooms wars where ‘hearts and minds’ are necessary to win.

    Boots mean US (colalition) blood, death and sacrifice (not something the modern US can stomach unfortunately), but also means real skin in the game, less impact on non combatants but higher chance of operational long term success.

    Air power – well this is the result of air power, less US loss but heinous non combatant loss which means you may win the minor tactical battle, but you lose your long term strategy and the war (sound like a certain party and recently demised campaign?).

    Until the US learns to live with blood and death for its foreign wars, we are doomed to fail (or maybe learn not to engage in unnecessary foreign wars – what a concept huh?).

    By the way, what will we all do now that the election is over?

    Is it still too early for the super snarky humor like P. Diddy making campaign donations to Obama in Crystal for a night in the Lincoln (or is it now Farakhan?) bedroom of Obama’s new crib?

  4. 4.

    jake 4 that 1

    November 5, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    I just read that Karzai has called on Obama to stop the bombings.

    I think that sums up his faith in President Flight Suit.

    I’m sure this is just me, but I get creeped out by those Army (or maybe Navy) ads that present combat as a series of opportunities to play with remote control toys. No, I don’t want soldiers shot up but man, I can’t see how that doesn’t increase the opportunity for more mistakes.

  5. 5.

    JWW

    November 5, 2008 at 8:40 pm

    Tim,

    Have you kept count of the buses, markets, weddings, villages, or just a plain old street corners that have been bombed with nothing but the killing of civilians as a desired effect. That is the way they operate and what they use as a power base.

    We make every effort to avoid such. The time does come when you have to hold the man or woman accountable. They choose the time when they decide to step away from their most secure place. They also know that by doing so, anyone in the area may be subject to injury or death.

    If you only get one shot at the target, you take it. And "NO" we don’t have the legal right to foot patrol where they are. The cost in American soldiers from such an adventure would make you choke on the words you just printed.

  6. 6.

    Halteclere

    November 5, 2008 at 8:41 pm

    A post WWII study concluded that bombing the crap out of Germany didn’t have much of an impact on the German war machine nor the resolve of the citizens.

    And I haven’t seen anything saying that today’s air power would have a different effect.

  7. 7.

    zak

    November 5, 2008 at 8:53 pm

    We make every effort to avoid such.

    Any evidence for this, beyond simple say-so? And if so, an "F" for effort.

  8. 8.

    4tehlulz

    November 5, 2008 at 9:09 pm

    @JWW: My copypasta senses are tingling.

  9. 9.

    JWW

    November 5, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    Halteclere,

    I beg to differ, the bombimg of both Germany and the rest of Europe played a significant role in the outcome of the war.
    If you would delve into the articles of the war(instead of cleansed readings) you would find that the bombing limited production and purging of partisans of the enemy by the US, Russian and other forces ended the war without years of uprising. I do find such a study of WWII totally invalid and without basis as pertaining to a war of such extent.

  10. 10.

    gwangung

    November 5, 2008 at 9:13 pm

    We make every effort to avoid such.

    I’m sure that’s of great comfort to those dead and wounded from the wedding party.

    Connect the dots, indeed….

  11. 11.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 5, 2008 at 9:17 pm

    They choose the time when they decide to step away from their most secure place.

    Yeah, you’re right: they should all starve in their basements. They should avoid weddings, funerals, birthday parties and anniversaries because otherwise they might get their asses blown clean off in the interest of altering their politics. That we’re still killing civilians en masse six years after invading Afghanistan suggests that our ability to differentiate our friends from our foes needs a hell of a lot of work.

    If you only get one shot at the target, you take it.

    Bullshit. You make certain that you have a legitimate target and that taking the shot won’t create more trouble for you than it solves. Every time you kill a non-insurgent by mistake you not only create more insurgents you also make more of the populace amenable to hiding, helping or ignoring the insurgents in their midst.

  12. 12.

    JWW

    November 5, 2008 at 9:50 pm

    Dennis-SSGM,

    Well I would venture to say, you(as a target) should take into account the repecussions of your presense. If you are one who expects or deserves to be in jepardy, you skip the main event and visit and give your private thoughts or blessings at a later time.

    To be blunt, they don’t care who suffers.

    For you and you alone, would you care? Or maybe would you be just like them… I know for me, I would avoid putting anyone in that situation.

  13. 13.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 5, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    Or maybe would you be just like them… I know for me, I would avoid putting anyone in that situation.

    Mekong Delta, ’71-’72 fighting genuine Viet Cong insurgents. No, I wasn’t just like them. America largely lacks the patience, the knowledge and the will to do all of the tedious little non-ordnance things that need to be done to win a counter-insurgency.

  14. 14.

    JWW

    November 5, 2008 at 10:14 pm

    Gwangung,

    And yes we do make every effort, yet those efforts never tell the true story. I’m sure they were all model Afgan loving people. I’m sure that the reason they were targeted was because they didn’t register with Wal Mart for gifts.

    Just so you mind numbed asses can relate, I will give you some American ass food for thought. The people in our underground crime scene never put their family and friends in such a position. They only, put their knowing associates in such a position.

    These slugs will commit anyone to death.

  15. 15.

    JWW

    November 5, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    Dennis-SGMM,

    I think you misunderstood my idea in which you quoted.

    My thought process was, if you knew you were a wanted man and you were wanted dead or alive. If you knew that every possible surveillance method was being used too track you, would you come out of hiding to a gala affair and put everyone around you in jepardy.

    A rebut to your last statement as total BS. We do more with SF than any nation in history to create loyal friends rather than to force short term trists.

  16. 16.

    JWW

    November 5, 2008 at 11:00 pm

    Back to Tim,

    It only takes 2,4,6 or 8 boots on the ground to gather the intelligence. But, to make any use of such knowledge with ground forces would be out of the question.

    For the idiots, 8 boots = 4 men. 20 to 100 non-friendy people = suicide for those four men.

    They collect the info, they pass it on in a timely manner. The outcome is determined by?

    I don’t currentlty have a picture of Lady Liberty with her scales.

  17. 17.

    gwangung

    November 5, 2008 at 11:06 pm

    @JWW:

    This is a bullshit comment, if only for the fact that you assume 100%, perfect intelligence. And we KNOW we have imperfect intelligence.

    Try not to be so assured who the idiots are in this conversation

  18. 18.

    JWW

    November 5, 2008 at 11:31 pm

    gwangung,

    Sorry if I may have questioned "your" intelligence. Read any good books lately?

    Yeah, there is no 100%. Even when you spend a one dollar bill you don’t get 100% of its value,(5-9%) tax.

    Our HUMINT does its very best to avoid ID errors. Yes errors are made.

    No it is not bullshit. What’s your answer, implant every human with a chip so no mistakes can ever be made. Yeah and we can still counterfeit everything man has produced since the beginning of time.

  19. 19.

    jenniebee

    November 6, 2008 at 12:34 am

    No it is not bullshit. What’s your answer, implant every human with a chip so no mistakes can ever be made. Yeah and we can still counterfeit everything man has produced since the beginning of time.

    How about this for an answer: stop bombing. Just stop.

  20. 20.

    TenguPhule

    November 6, 2008 at 1:31 am

    The time does come when you have to hold the man or woman accountable. They choose the time when they decide to step away from their most secure place. They also know that by doing so, anyone in the area may be subject to injury or death.

    -Famous Hypothetical Last Speech by the 9/11 hijackers

    Yeah, it’s only fun and games until you’re on the other end of the bullet.

  21. 21.

    TenguPhule

    November 6, 2008 at 1:33 am

    If you knew that every possible surveillance method was being used too track you, would you come out of hiding to a gala affair and put everyone around you in jepardy.

    Shorter JWW: But there were terrorists there! Unless they’re not. But they could have been there!

    Stop making excuses and admit this is fucked up.

  22. 22.

    TenguPhule

    November 6, 2008 at 1:34 am

    If you only get one shot at the target, you take it.

    Instant proof that JWW is a proud serving member of the 101st armchair brigade.

  23. 23.

    Ian

    November 6, 2008 at 5:29 am

    The few times it has worked (e.g., Philipines) the [old fashioned counterinsurgency] strategy more resembled Jack Petraeus than Jack D. Ripper of the Strategic Air Command.

    American policy in the Philipines was, if anything, more bloody than the Iraq war. Hundreds of thousands of Filipinos civilians were killed (directly or indirectly) in a country with a much smaller population. It seems to me that the conquest of the Philipines was an old-fashioned counterinsurgency war, a la Julius Caesar or Genghis Khan; when faced with an insurgency, massacre civilians until they stop supporting the rebels or until you run out of civilians to kill.

    Nobody should take the Philippine–American War as a model for future plans, because that war was evil in every respect. Just ask Mark Twain.

  24. 24.

    rachel

    November 6, 2008 at 5:33 am

    Shorter JWW: Bomb ’em all and let God sort them out.

  25. 25.

    Dayv

    November 6, 2008 at 8:25 am

    It’s kind of sad that you need story B to oppose the policy behind story A.  I oppose it well before it ever starts hurting American soldiers.

  26. 26.

    grendelkhan

    November 6, 2008 at 9:30 am

    Tim: Story B is the reason why I oppose the policy behind story A.

    Dayv just barely beat me to it, but… really? If we were vaporizing wedding parties willy-nilly, but it didn’t have negative military consequences for "our guys", you’d be all over that policy?

    Please tell me that’s not what you meant to say. It’s a good rationale for even the most bloodthirsty bastard to avoid the policy in question, but it’s also crushingly depressing that heaps upon heaps of dead civilians do not, in and of themselves, move us as a people. As Bob Harris said in regard to a sickeningly similar story four years ago, we’ve already lost.

  27. 27.

    JWW

    November 6, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    TenjuPhule,

    First off the 101st armchair is what I had your old lady bent over while I was trying to type.

    The real point is that we are not fighting an army that can be tracked by the footprint they leave. We are hunting the ever elusive Yeti. If you have the opportunity to remove a priority target you do so. If you don’t months may pass before it may be available again. And in the between months they kill at will. But the irony is, they kill more of their own than they do of us.

    I’ll bet there were a lot of leftovers at the party.

    And really, my life as a Social Worker and Certified Counselor for abused garden tools gives me all the experiance I need to compete with you.

  28. 28.

    JWW

    November 6, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    Rachel,

    I don’t think the bomb them all works.

    Besides, if we did there is no beachfront property for you to purchase when the vacancy sign goes up.

    Go back to your breeding station and make more puppies.

  29. 29.

    rachel

    November 7, 2008 at 12:34 am

    JWW,

    Yes, post like I care what a moral pygmy thinks–if he can at all.

  30. 30.

    JWW

    November 7, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    Rachel,

    At times I tend to be snide. I’m not and never have been a "blow them all to hell" type of guy. I do however believe that with a certain ratio of positive idendification, those targets that need to be removed, and should be.

    As for at a wedding ceremony or any other gathering, I would only venture to guess that the vast majority of the visitors were of the same ilk.

    I know I wouldn’t invite mafia members, gang members, terrorists and such to my wedding, most of all if they were on the Most Wanted List. If you invite them and you and they are willing to take the risk. Well, you get what you asked for.

    Sorry if that offends you. Look what takes place in your own country. This type of killing takes place every day here in the US. Only it’s not the government doing it, it is just those who oppose and/or want more power, more territory or to make money by doing so. We call them drive-by shootings and in all too many cases the target is in the wrong room at the time and the innocent near the window ends up dead.

    Your war is not war at all, it’s a reason find fault. The real war is to end it with peace.

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    November 5, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    […] stories is the very evidence that she was and is, in fact, a dangerous buffoon. Tim mentioned the Afghanistan wedding strike below, but it is worth […]

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