Halef and I visited the Al-Farooq Masjid (Mosque) in Atlanta today and took an educational tour with Mohammed Zohbe, a member of the Masjid from Lebanon. Needless to say, it was an awesome experience. Mr. Zohbe explained a LOT of things to us. The Al-Farooq mosque is a place for all Muslims. Shi’a and Sunni are political constructs that don’t seem to mean anything here. A lot of misconceptions completely cleared up.
I didn’t quite believe that Islam was a violent religion (although I am ashamed to say I made fun of the religion during my, er, earlier days of blogging.) Now, after having talked to so many people today, I am certain it’s not. It was an awesome experience. A few pictures:
Outside the Masjid – worshippers and tourists.
The view of the main dome from the inside. Due to an structural error, the massive chandalier cannot be hung as it should be. The dome cannot support the weight. In my opinion, no big deal. It’s beautiful the way it is.
Yes, Muslims live by etiquette. This is just one of the odder rules, but there are rules for everything. When a Muslim enters your home, he or she must smile and be gracious, for example. I just took the “Bathroom Etiquette” picture to show you how rules apply – even things that seem strange to you and me. The funny thing is that Mr. Zohbe told me a lot of people take pictures of this, but it’s ok. The more we understand each other, he noted, even the strange things, the better.
One thing that stuck me more than anything was this: Under Islam, men and women are equal. It is culture, not religion, that oppresses women. I was amazed at the role women played in the decision-making and in life.
tomjones
The view of the minaret from Northside Dr. and 17th is a sight to behold. Michael, are the tours regular things? I’ve wanted to poke around inside for quite some time.
Response from Michael: Schedule an appointment here. (Sorry to edit your comment – just didn’t want this to get lost int he mess.) You’d be surprised at how simple it is on the inside. Few chairs, no pictures or statues, but very open to questions, pictures, etc. One thing that DID surprise me was the technology. LCD screens all over the place, a computer lab for the kids, etc.
Joshua James
Hmm, I don’t know that I agree, per se, that Islam is not a violent religion in some aspects (to be fair, I have the exact same view of Christianity) since the tenets specifically call for violence for certain offenses and instances . . . it’s been awhile, but that’s my memory of it when reading ISLAM by Karen Armstrong . . .
If I recall, Islam means "to submit" which some folks take to mean give yourself to Allah, and some take to mean you submit everyone to Allah, which often leads to conflict . . . that’s a broad stroke simplistic sentence from hung-over memory cells this morn, but that’s what I remember.
Now I do not say that all Muslims themselves are violent, of course not, I’d never say that . . . there are people who are violent everywhere who happen to be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, even Hindu and Buddhist . . .
And many folks of religious nature who are not violent at all, just like there are atheists who are perfectly peaceful and moral . . .
kid bitzer
"I didnāt quite believe that Islam was a violent religion"
i don’t think it makes sense to say it’s a violent religion, but i’m not sure it makes sense to say it is *not* a violent religion, either.
i mean–it’s got some adherents who use it as a pretext for violence, and some adherents who use it as a pretext for avoiding violence, and it’s got some texts that make each of those positions easier to defend as gospel and some that make each of them harder.
in other words, it’s the same old shit as any religion, e.g. christianity, and i’m just not sure it makes sense to say "religion R is a violent religion; religion P is not a violent religion".
it’s usually people what’s violent or not.
(i mean–yeah, you could make up a religion that, just as a religion, was totally dedicated to violence, and maybe in that case it would make sense to say that the religion itself was a violent religion. but no existing religion is like that. the ones we have to deal with–they’re just ambiguous, and capable of being put to many uses, by people with different agendas.)
kid bitzer
but total agreement about the dome–no chandelier could improve that.
Limniade
I can think of a lot of bathrooms that would be vastly improved by adopting even half of those rules. Maybe they’re on to something.
Limniade
And you don’t even have to make up religions dedicated to violence. There have been several cultures in which human sacrifice and/or warfare were integral parts of their worship, such as the Aztecs, the Saxons and the Norse.
kid bitzer
limniade–yeah, i was thinking about some of the precolombian ones, as well as certain accounts of baal-worship.
but that’s why i said "no existing religion is like that"–they don’t exist any longer. (at least, you don’t get a lot of self-identifying baal-worshipers anymore. though mammon and moloch still have followers.)
anyhow–when you look at the religions that are currently popular, i just don’t know whether it makes sense to say that the religion is/isn’t violent, instead of the people who claim to follow it.
Michael D.
@Joshua James: It certainly is not in the eyes of the people I met today. I think I had my mind changed today. Culture breeds violence.
liberatemeiexinfernis
well Islam of course isn’t a violent religion, but adherents of Islam need to have their own Reformation and Renaissance. Islam is the only religion which has the fewest independent non biased scholarly. Part of the reason is that the Holy Quran is the unquestioned word of Allah, and no one can research or debate its meaning, especially non Muslims because it is the unquestioned word of God…question it and you could earn the wrath of hard core fanatics. the Bible and Jewish books have been researched, debated, and various versions excavated, which is why much of academia and highly educated people dont cling to their religious beliefs with the same zealousness that Muslims do. There is a chance Jesus was human, and now that I know that, I am not going to go around trying to make it my mission to convert others to Christian. But that sort of transformation hasnt taken place within Islam. There has to be an environment where Muslim and Non Muslim scholars alike should take the Quran and research it origins, and sayings, and not just believe the teachings of Islamic priests as the final interpretation, even if it is well meaning.
Joshua James
I have met people like that myself, so I would agree that in terms of people, there are many followers of Islam who are peaceful, wonderful folks.
But in terms of a religion, Islam itself, the Koran calls for violence and war under certain circumstances, that’s what I recall from my book learning.
kid bitzer
#10–
yup, and on other pages it calls for love and peace and flower-power.
in other words: it’s inconsistent. contradictory. incoherent.
that’s what most religions are like. they try to please everyone, and tell everyone what they want to hear.
so some people hear the pro-violence bits, and some people here the anti-violence bits.
generally speaking, nice people hear the nice parts, and jerks hear the jerky parts.
sounds like michael met a bunch of genuinely nice people today.
doesn’t say much one way or another about their religion.
kommrade jakevich
Have you read any history? A lot of it contains Europeans slaughtering each other and non-Europeans in the name of God. And what do you know? There are many passages (particularly the OT) one can cite when one is in the mood for a little heathen smiting.
And now we have George "Jebus is My Guide" Bush waging a two front war.
Could it be … some people like to blame their violent tendencies on someone else? Some people blame their parents. Some people blame God.
nabalzbbfr
Yeah sure – you are naive enough to swallow all the bs pitched at you. That’s why I respect people like Sarah Palin who rely on common sense instead of weighty academic credentials. They are much better at seeing through such malarkey than people with PhDs in international relations.
Hyperion
religions don’t kill people; people kill people.
Hyperion
Michael D., do you ever watch Little Mosque on the Prairie?
Islam meets Canada….sort of.
I never know who can get CBC on cable.
Chet
Under Islam, men and women are equal. It is culture, not religion, that oppresses women.
Strictly speaking – how would you tell the difference? Surely you’re not one of those people who believes that religion is, and only is, what can be found in that religion’s supposedly holy scriptures, right? (Because otherwise you’d have to conclude that Islam perhaps was a violent religion, since it’s the metaphors of warfare, struggle, and conquest through which the Qu’ran communicates its message.)
I don’t image Islam is substantially more violent than any other religion, but it is a religion, and therefore the cause of violence. But Islamic culture can not really be divorced from Islamic religion, no more than Christian culture can be separated from Christian religion. (I mean almost all of the dogma of the Catholic church exists culturally, not scripturally.) If Islam is what Muslims do, especially when they’re "being Muslim", then it’s impossible to say that an Islam exists that doesn’t include violence and subjugation of women.
Sirkowski
It’s very silly. Religious is just too silly.
matt
I did a similar tour in an LA mosque a few months back. I was struck by the ritualistic aspect as well—they talked way more about their schedule than their metaphysics. That said, the people did seem very nice.
Joel
I’m not sure you can call Shia and Sunni political constructs.
They formed from a very early division in Islam, where the Shia followed Abu Bakr and the Sunni followed Ali. There’s also a lot of differences in their religious structure.
I’d say the differences are about as stark as Catholicism and Protestantism. Certainly there are Christian churches that embrace both divisions of faith, but for the most part, each branch has rejected the other as heresy.
Svensker
Have you read the OT lately? Lots of smiting there, not to mention genocide and killing your children if they don’t obey the parents.
Religions all accrue weird bits, it’s the followers’ take on it — which can change, radically, over time — that gives it the current flavor.
The rise of fundamentalism is certainly NOT confined to Islam. Look at the Israeli settlers and our own Dobsons, et al. Not to mention Nozzlefogger.
robertdsc
After the Prop 8 debacle, I can’t get into religion, even if the buildings are beautiful.
Cato the Elder
Do you speak Arabic? Muslims are famous for saying one thing in the language of the host country, and another in Arabic. Yasir Arafat was a master at the game. You can find plenty of examples on YouTube where he exudes love peace and tolerance in English, and then screams for Jihad Jihad Jihad in Arabic. It would be interesting to know what the people you visited today hear when the preaching is in the language of the Koran.
And yes, Jihad means more than holy war. But: ‘Jihad (in Arabic, "struggle") is a central duty of every Muslim. Modern Muslim theologians have spoken of many things as jihads: the struggle within the soul, defending the faith from critics, supporting its growth and defense financially, even migrating to non-Muslim lands for the purpose of spreading Islam. But violent jihad is a constant of Islamic history. Many passages of the Qur’an and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad are used by jihad warriors today to justify their actions and gain new recruits. No major Muslim group has ever repudiated the doctrines of armed jihad. The theology of jihad, which denies unbelievers equality of human rights and dignity, is available today for anyone with the will and means to bring it to life.’
For more information about the basics of Islamic theology, see here.
Dennis - SGMM
@liberatemeiexinfernis:
Until the Fourteenth Century, Islamic countries led the world in the sciences. At that time the theologians became concerned that continued scientific inquiry might lead the faithful to question their religion. The theologians held the upper hand with their various rulers and so scientific inquiry was actively discouraged from then on and emphasis was put on religious doctrine at the expense of all else .
Ironically, Western Europe at the time was reacquainted with Aristotle, Hippocrates, and others via translations from Arabic versions of their writings.
A more complete exposition of the early debt owed by Western civilization to the Islamic nations I recommend Norman F. Cantor’s The Civilization of the Middle Ages.
ed
And if you go to Temple Square in Salt Lake City some very nice people in lovely buildings there will have you seriously considering Joseph Smith as a prophet and that Jesus hangs out in America sometimes. And they also have a great abundance of rules.
Proving nothing, just like the trip to a mosque.
liberatemeiexinfernis
@Dennis-SGMM
There are a small minority of educated Muslims who would like a more open minded interpretation and research of the Quran. But I think its gonna take another couple of decades for there to be a sea change in the way even moderate Muslims approach the idea of questioning and debating their holy texts. Take a for example the idea of inter religious marriage ..its specifically states in the Quran that a Muslim man can marry a non Muslim woman and convert her to Islam, but a Muslim woman cannot marry a non Muslim man. Even educated Muslims never go against this grain of antiquated thinking..and thats why I say, and you are saying the same thing too in essence, we need to have more scholarly work done in a non intimidating environment as to how the Quran originated and more open interpretations of its verses
Thursday
May I suggest Irshad Manji? Her book The Trouble With Islam is a very enlightening work, coming as it does from a Muslim who is a) female; b) gay; and c) non-Arabic (and yes, that makes a difference).
In my corner of the world, the "separate folk" are the Sikhs. The parallels between the two faiths are striking. *Edit* As far as impact on the nation’s culture, that is: there is an ongoing war between the extremist and the moderate factions, and it’s tough to see if you’re not looking for it.
gil mann
That’s why I stay the hell away from it.
Tymannosourus
You mean "terrorists" right? Because they’re all muslim and junk?
Svensker
Jihad Watch for basics of Islam? That’s like sending someone to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to learn about Judaism.
QuickRob
Naive suckers.
Lemme know when you go tour a Christian church and follow it up with a glowing post about learning the truth about Christianity or some other nonsense, then me and 50% of the people who read this might reconsider how lame this drivel is…
I’m an athiest, and this is right up there on the lame list next to ignoring Obama’s religiosity and his whacko church. I thought only Bush hated gays, but Obama does too, huh?
I know, I know, I just blabbered some incendiary bullsh*t. Look at me like a mirror, yes.
John, ditch the morons and post by yourself. I know my opinion isn’t worth sh*t to you, but someone has to say it.
Later!
QuickRob
Oh, and nice to see the site doesn’t load slower than molasses and then give a 404 anymore
Rieux
I doubt I agree with Rob on very much, but I have to strongly concur with my fellow atheist that this post is severely lame.
The notion that "religion" can be neatly divided from "culture"–and then that all of the incredible violence that has been justified on religious grounds can be shoved into the latter category–is laughable.
In fact, Islam–like most major religions–has been the cause of an enormous amount of violence. One lengthy case for this proposition is made in Hector Avalos’ Fighting Words: The Origins of Religious Violence, though there are plenty of others.
Unless you’re willing to present a far deeper case than the one in this post, please trouble us not with such weak, unthinking nonsense on what is generally a very nice blog.
I mean:
That’s a joke, right?
Hey, the American Pledge of Allegiance says our Republic enjoys "liberty and justice for all." I’m sure there’s no reason whatsoever to doubt self-serving declarations like that one….
empty
@Cato:
As most muslims do not speak arabic that’s quite a trick. And hey, there is this cool book about the protocols of another shady group. Lots of useful info there too.
pseudonymous in nc
The Sunni-Shia division is, for somewhat obvious reasons, less pronounced in places where there aren’t a huge number of Muslims. If you’re in a part of the world where there’s only one church, then you don’t get too picky over the denomination.
Anyway, Islam is due a renaissance. Not a crusade, though.
And it’s funny to see one of those funny, obsolete warblog types with a Roman nym: are you pining for a reinvasion of Spain?
Cato the Elder
Svensker:
So far I have not found in my independent researches anything that would impugn the veracity of what Jihad Watch has to say about Islamic theology. Instead of making specious comparisons with the notorious "Protocols", why don’t you make the effort to refute one single statement from the page to which I linked?
You won’t, I’m sure, because you can’t. But here’s the link again in case you’d like to try. Are you up to the challenge?
The same goes for you, "empty". And my point about Muslims saying one thing for public consumption and another amongst themselves applies whether the language is Arabic, Urdu, Thai or English. I can provide dozens of examples, if you like. Of course they’ll mean nothing to you if you’ve drunk the "Islam is a religion of peace" Kool-Aid, but if you’re interested in enlightenment rather than willful self-delusion and feel-good rhetoric, I’d be happy to oblige.
Michael D.
@Rieux:
Michael writes a post about going to a mosque, says he learned a thing or two, and takes a few pictures.
Balloon Juice Atheists collectively revolt!
For what it’s worth, I have never in my life believed in a god or gods. Never. Not even as a kid when I was being dragged to church and Sunday school by my parents.
But your outrage and condescension whenever someone anywhere mentions religion or posts a picture of a religious building, or says he “learned something” about something is EXACTLY why people hate atheists.
Hell, even I hate most atheists.
Michael D.
@empty: Agreed. The Taqiyya libel.
– Muslims conceal their true intentions.
– Jews want to drink the blood of your kids
– Etc.
– Etc.
Even at Balloon Juice, some people listen to way too much Sean Hannity and Michael Savage.
A la lanterne les aristos
That’s cause most atheists are jerks. All the cool kids are agnostics nowadays.
pseudonymous in nc
@Cato the Elder: how’s Hispania Citerior? Seriously, for someone who cites people who froth about the restoration of the Caliphate to take the name of the guy who conquered bits of Spain is really fucking funny. You’d sound less like a pompous bastard if you went with ‘Biggus Dickus’, even though it would likely be a lie.
Fun stuff. My home town’s an interesting example: there was some fuss some years ago about converting a long-disused church in the downtown area to a mosque (even as the diocese was busily demolishing churches for parking lots or letting them go to ruin). The Muslim immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh were living in the houses once occupied by Catholic immigrants from Italy, Ireland and Poland, who formed their own clubs and whose kids went to their own schools. A couple of years ago, I watched a documentary on Discovery about pilgrims to Mecca, and the one guy they chose to subtitle had an accent that was basically the same as mine. He was born and bred in a part of my home town, within a stone’s throw of where my (white, Catholic) dad was born. To me, all that speaks of social continuity instead of something foreign and disruptive.
Limagolf
@ Joel "…the Shia followed Abu Bakr and the Sunni followed Ali"
It’s the other way round.
You will often hear shias call upon Ali for help or guidance.
My ex-father-in-law (Persian zorastrian, to confuse matters) believed Ali saved his life during a car crash.
Nevermind what’s in the Quaran and the various hadiths, the strongly paternalist culture in the Middle East is an integrated part of the culture, and it IS a problem. Not surprisingly most muslims I know are good people, because that’s what most people are. But their cultural baggage is problematic and somtimes grates against our western norms.
/Limagolf
freelancer
Colbert: "Agnostics are just atheists without balls!"
I’m an atheist in Nebraska, so that pretty much means most of the people I’m friends with, are related to, in my dating pool, meet in every day life; are theist. While I am uncompromising in my non-belief and am willing to discuss my opinion to no end when asked or prompted, I generally lay low on the meta-physical front). I’m not a go-along to get-along atheist, I have a lot of respect for the four horsemen and think that they’re absolutely necessary, I think picking a fight for intellectual/moral superiority is a fool’s errand. If you want to win, fine, but you’re going to turn people off. Smug doesn’t work, I’ve tried it, over and over and over. I think amongst all non-believers, the skeptic movement has the best general approach: Education.
I don’t proselytize atheism, but I’m always willing explain my rationale as to why I believe what I believe, and if you want to believe in something else and pray, I don’t want to take it away from you, etc, but I’m of the opinion that the universe has rules, and to say that those rules are regularly violated by the writer of those rules according to the writer’s whims, well that doesn’t explain or mean anything.
Again, I agree that atheism doesn’t have a lot to cheer FOR, and there are some assholes within its movement (Rational Response Squad) but, empiricism is at its heart, with the willingness to pivot based on the interpretation of valid evidence.
Islam, as well as many other dominant faiths is non-negotiable. Over the course of the last decade, I’ve seen many cases, individuals, and interviews where supposedly moderate, Western Muslims have been asked about the appropriate penance for apostasy (Muslims rejecting Islam), and whether the Koran’s prescription for execution was too intolerant. I have not, as of yet, seen a single Muslim say anything approaching or to the effect of ‘No, the Koran is incorrect in this instance. Killing a man or woman for leaving Islam is an abhorrent, medieval practice that is not warranted, tolerated, or encouraged by most practitioners of the religion of peace.’
And no, I’m not picking on islam, cause I’m not a right-winger. I was born and raised Catholic, and sometimes, there is a time to let bygones be bygones. The church itself has its own issues, considering it has more money and a higher body count (with its history) than every modern or 20th century drug cartel the US has engaged PUT TOGETHER.
Nick
Xenos
And our fundies have been on a jihad ever since trying to send us back to the fourteenth century.
A lot of the ignorant jerks who relish civilizational clashes are quite eager to ignore the recent history behind political active Islamic fundamentalism – it is mostly an Arabic phenomenon, it is mostly a response to colonialism and neo-colonialism, and it has become widespread due to a decades long project funded by the Saudis.
When you ignore such history you end up doing such stupid things as instituting a neoliberal economic regime in Iraq that exactly duplicates the unacceptable policies of the British Empire. The Iraqis sniffed it out within weeks, and we had lost the occupation within 90 days of winning the war.
Ash Can
Reading through this thread, I see lots of "Islam is this, Islam is that" criticism. Are any of the critics here so far, y’know, actual Muslims? Just sayin’.
And I’m just sayin’ it because, especially in this day and age, Islam has tended to be spectacularly misunderstood in the Western world. I’d wager that many Juicers who are practicing Jews and Christians would be amazed at how much in common their religions have with Islam. I know I was, over the course of a conversation with a religious Pakistani grad-school classmate some years ago. (A female classmate, BTW, and one who did not feel the least bit oppressed by her religion, and, as an aspiring Pakistani government official, certainly didn’t act as though she was.) And no, I can’t point to any specific instance when I’ve heard a Muslim say "anything approaching or to the effect of āNo, the Koran is incorrect in this instance. Killing a man or woman for leaving Islam is an abhorrent, medieval practice’" etc. Living as I do in a major city with a large, established, and eminently peaceful Muslim population, however, I suspect that such thinking prevails.
I’m willing to listen to Michael D sooner than his critics here based solely on the fact that he’s fresh from discussions with the aforementioned actual Muslims himself.
Kayakr
Friday in downtown Dakar, near the Central Mosque. The call to prayer flutters out over the streets and…
Shopkeepers close temporarily, slipping into the streets with their prayer rugs,
Traffic, including taxis, stop. The drivers pull their rugs from the trunk and wait by their cars,
The streets become flooded with worshipers – standing (and kneeling) room only,
My Senegalese companions join them as I fade back into a doorway to watch. The beauty and power of thousands praying together is – awesome, for lack of a better word.
Afterward within a few minutes the city hums again as the people return to their business. My companions rejoin me and we continue on to our original destination.
Anyone who has witnessed this and believes Islam as it is practiced everywhere is inherently a violent religion has a closed mind and heart.
Adam CB
Hi. I’m Muslim. I’m a white guy and my family has been living in North America since 1650. I embraced the faith later in life.
I know of no Muslim who suggests that "submission" to the Almighty is something that we ask other people to do. It’s for us Muslims. Our submission is what makes us Muslim. As far as violence against others goes, it must be defensive in nature. We have our own "just war theory" and, yes, it’s used and has been used as an excuse for mass murder by the most vile human beings ever born. Just like the Christian theory.
The Sunni-Shi’a divide here in the USA is pretty mild, in part because of the disparate nature of the umma here. We’re too busy sticking together and trying to build nice masaged (Egyptian pronunciation, and plural) like the one in Atlanta so that we can move out of the rather poor and unsuitable settings for worship that we have now. Shi’a, and Sunni who share some sympathies with them, are deprived of shrines here, too, so they can’t often display that veneration of the family of the Prophet (SAW) that creeps out us mainstream believers and, more importantly, starts to undermine what we consider the most important component of our religion: its absolute monotheism.
Having spent no small amount of time in the masaged of al-Qahira (Cairo), that sign about bathroom etiquette made me laugh out loud. In one magnificent but decrepit masged (its image is on one side of the Egyptian 200-pound note!), my Egyptian girlfriend and I had to work pretty hard to find an ablution area for her that met minimal sanitary standards. The men’s area was, well, adequate, but I had bottled water to wash my mouth. She almost decided that she’d skip the prayer and try and make it up later, but one of the caretakers of the masged came up with the keys to a private bathroom that turned out to be quite clean. I should say that there’s no restroom in Egypt that I saw, including the ones at the sparkling new Alexandria library, that would cut it here. But, it’s a nice idea for the Atlanta masged to be so very concerned, although I think that the leaders of the masged could lighten up a bit. By the way, at least in Egyptian homes, one takes off one’s shoes when entering. There’s a little step in the floor that communicates this notion. In Egyptian masaged, even the oldest, there’s also a raised threshold that also says "take off your shoes" to those in the know. I wonder whether the Atlanta building has such a threshold?
jakester
Yeah, but, Michael? What about the gay thing?
jakester
Yeah, but, Michael? What about the gay thing?
Rieux
Well, Uncle Tom, fuck you and your Dinesh D’Souza – style "it’s your fault they hate us" bullshit. No one, including atheists, has any duty to accept the kind of whitewashing apologetics you have obviously swallowed whole. Moreover, the fact that your response to ordinary voices of dissent is to invoke the age- old cry of "Lawdy! Them Radical Atheists is after me!" speaks plenty about your ability to defend your gullible nonsense here.
Your assertions in the original post have been challenged here. You haven’t defended them; instead, you’ve lobbed ad hominems. Conclusion: you’re a loser. As I pointed out, anyone who actually wrote this:
…ought to be ashamed that that sentence ever passed through his keyboard.
Idiocy of that kind–displaying not the slightest familiarity with the profuse discussion on just such questions (which I tried to point you toward, but what the hell do you care about informed discussion of reality?)–deserves condescension. You write stupid shit, we’ll call it stupid shit. Apparently your response will be pathetic whining.
I can see why. Lots of us have the temerity actually to examine religious issues that you can’t be bothered to think about beyond swallowing whatever a sympathetic-looking salesperson tells you without an ounce of critical inquiry.
On the other side of the relationship, a lot of atheists have little regard for unthinking Uncle Toms–so the feeling may be mutual.