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You are here: Home / Politics / Republican Stupidity / More of This, Please!

More of This, Please!

by Michael D.|  November 14, 20081:28 pm| 105 Comments

This post is in: Republican Stupidity

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A Catholic priest in South Carolina is refusing communion for Obama supporters.

A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because the Democratic president-elect supports abortion, and supporting him “constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.”
The Rev. Jay Scott Newman said in a letter distributed Sunday to parishioners at St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville that they are putting their souls at risk if they take Holy Communion before doing penance for their vote.

“Our nation has chosen for its chief executive the most radical pro-abortion politician ever to serve in the United States Senate or to run for president,” Newman wrote, referring to Obama by his full name, including his middle name of Hussein.

I say “More of this” because I am thrilled that the right wing is being exposed, unlike at any time before, to be an exclusive club for wingnuts. More than ever before, even sensible Republicans are realizing as much.

People who’ve written that the Republican Party will veer more to the right after this election are exactly correct. And personally, I am happy to see it happen.

Update: Added a link to the story, which I forgot to do before I published it.

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Reader Interactions

105Comments

  1. 1.

    slaneyblack

    November 14, 2008 at 1:33 pm

    How much you wanna bet Fr. Newman gets picked up for questionable relations with altarboys in the next few months? Thanks for reminding me why I don’t go to church anymore.

    Damn, I’m gonna have to go Swedenborgian or some shit the way this is going…

  2. 2.

    Josh Hueco

    November 14, 2008 at 1:36 pm

    Don’t kill those babies…they’re fresh meat!

  3. 3.

    MizLiz

    November 14, 2008 at 1:36 pm

    This priest is overstepping his boundaries. A Catholic, as a last resort, has to answer to his/her own conscience as to what constitutes a sin or not. Churches who start going this far ought to have their tax-exempt status revoked.

  4. 4.

    Josh Hueco

    November 14, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    @MizLiz:

    Agreed. My über-liberal UCC church in Oregon never would have kicked out a member for not voting the "proper" way. Which is too bad because there’s so much about the Catholic Church that I admire I’ve thought about joining…but then there’s so much I can’t stand.

  5. 5.

    Crusty Dem

    November 14, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    Josh, having been raised in the Catholic church and gone to Catholic schools, I have to wonder what in the hell you’re talking about… Unless you love the bingo.

  6. 6.

    Michael D.

    November 14, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    Personally, I think churches in general should not be tax exempt. But that’s just me I guess.

  7. 7.

    robertdsc

    November 14, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    I grew up Catholic but never encountered something like this.

    It’s depressing how low my former religion has fallen.

  8. 8.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 14, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    “Our nation has chosen for its chief executive the most radical pro-abortion politician ever to serve in the United States Senate or to run for president,” Newman wrote, referring to Obama by his full name, including his middle name of Hussein.

    Ever noticed how, since the Sixties, the most prominent Democrat is always "the most radical," or the "most liberal," or the most "liberally radically liberal"? Crap, it’s like the conservatives are stuck in a time warp. Meanwhile, they’ve managed to drain every shred of meaning from the word "conservative" when applied to their party and they’ve somehow failed to notice that their recent ass-kicking was in part self-administered. Stay with it Republicans: your strategy is brimming with win.

  9. 9.

    nitpicker

    November 14, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    Torture is also an "intrinsic evil" and was much more directly supported by the spokespeople on the right than I’ve ever directly supported abortion. Does K-Lo still get to drink the blood of Christ?

  10. 10.

    Josh Hueco

    November 14, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    @Crusty Dem:

    Haha…I’ve always liked the emphasis on liturgy, on works, on the sacramental view of the world. I’ve always liked the idea of tradition. But that tradition has to be open to the fresh air of different views. That and I’m deathly allergic to patriarchy.

  11. 11.

    Foxhunter

    November 14, 2008 at 1:49 pm

    @Michael D.:

    I think churches in general should not be tax exempt.

    In the town I live, there is a church (borderline MEGA) that has annexed/bought a majority of the city limits. Older homes are now used for hostels, missionary boarding, shelters, half-ways, etc. The tax base of the city has been eroded this church-owned property creep that they are on the verge of having to cut services. Apparently, said church ain’t feeling too bad about this and some of my neighbors say the good works of the church outweigh the need for good civil works. Idiots, all.

  12. 12.

    ET

    November 14, 2008 at 1:51 pm

    Over the course of history, being involved with politics hasn’t necessarily done the Catholic church any good in the long term.

  13. 13.

    Foxhunter

    November 14, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    @Dennis – SGMM:

    their recent ass-kicking was in part self-administered

    It is nice to see the Republicans finally wearing that Kevorkian horse collar. May they ride that slow drip of death into oblivion until the Democrats decide to seize the day and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

  14. 14.

    JD Rhoades

    November 14, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    People who’ve written that the Republican Party will veer more to the right after this election are exactly correct. And personally, I am happy to see it happen.

    I, on the other hand, would actually like to see a Republican party that engages in honest, thoughtful debate about big issues. I think both parties would benefit, and I know the country would.

    Not much chance of it happening, though.

  15. 15.

    lovethebomb

    November 14, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    The bible is very clear in asserting that you cannot serve God and Mammon. You have to choose one. Since the Republican party is unequivocally the party of Mammon, you cannot be a Christian and a Republican at the same time. To vote Republican is to disavow your faith and serve and worship Mammon. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  16. 16.

    e.c.

    November 14, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    ok, yes it’s crazy. but i’ll take a glass half full position and say that being reduced to attempting religious blackmail on your parishoners is clearly a last-ditch effort in what he can sense is a loosing battle. someone should really tell him that we turned the corner on the choice debate a good decade ago.

  17. 17.

    greynoldsct00

    November 14, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    I hope this exposure does threaten their tax status, as MizLiz said…he may not be preaching politics but he sure is using it against his parishioners. This is why I remain a rebel-Catholic. I miss the mass and all that but I can’t take the rules and guilt that they insist on dishing out. I had enough of coming out of church feeling like I had been scolded – which in many cases was the case….

  18. 18.

    Zifnab

    November 14, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because the Democratic president-elect supports abortion, and supporting him “constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.”
    The Rev. Jay Scott Newman said in a letter distributed Sunday to parishioners at St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville that they are putting their souls at risk if they take Holy Communion before doing penance for their vote.

    Worth noting – two things.

    Firstly, no one is being "denied" communion. The church would have to investigate its congregation and find out who voted / donated / volunteered for Obama to even begin to enforce this, and they aren’t going that far. The priest thinks voting for Obama is a sin big enough to warrant this warning and he’s still got free speech / free religion rights like everyone else. So let him swing for the bleachers on this. I’m sure there are a few of his fellow clergymen who disagree with him for a number of reasons.

    Second, abortion isn’t the be-all end-all only position a Catholic can take when determining who to vote for. Last I checked, the Vatican was staunchly against the Iraq War. Where is the warning against taking communion for McCain voters?

    Neither candidate scores 100% on the Catholic litmus test. This guy is completely out of line in terms of his rhetoric. That said, he’s not acting like some megalomaniac fascist here, just spouting off his (obviously ill-informed) religious opinion. There is, ultimately, nothing wrong with that.

  19. 19.

    jake 4 that 1

    November 14, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    To be fair, he didn’t say he would refuse to give Communion, he only said people who voted for Obama should not take Communion until they go to Confession. This has become a new attention grabbing device for some priests and frankly, it’s stupid.

  20. 20.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 14, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    @Foxhunter:
    In my little SoCal town, one of the churches has managed to buy up almost an entire city block, another was willed a prime square-block parcel by one of its parishioners. I should have taken up preaching: the pastor of the second church lives in a big house on a hill built on church property – with prominent "No Trespassing" signs. I thought that were supposed to forgive those who trespass against us.

  21. 21.

    Incertus

    November 14, 2008 at 2:04 pm

    @JD Rhoades: It’ll probably happen eventually, after the nation has moved noticeably to the left in the next few years and the fundies get discouraged about having their asses handed to them everywhere outside rural America.

  22. 22.

    Foxhunter

    November 14, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    @Dennis – SGMM:

    I thought that were supposed to forgive those who trespass against us.

    Amen, brother.

    To add a little spice to my anecdote, the church in my town is heavily funded by Truett Cathy. I appreciate all of his philatropic work, but still love to call the place the ‘Truet Cathy Cathedral’ or ‘The House that Chick-Fil-A’ built. I don’t dare speak that way in mixed company, tho, for fear of prayers and blessings being thrown my way.

  23. 23.

    Comrade Kevin

    November 14, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    There was similar type of incident out here in California.

  24. 24.

    HyperIon

    November 14, 2008 at 2:09 pm

    Churches who start going this far ought to have their tax-exempt status revoked.

    uh, no.
    the government does not get to decide when a church goes "too far" in its doctrine. please, get educated.

  25. 25.

    Comrade Darkness

    November 14, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Apparently, said church ain’t feeling too bad about this and some of my neighbors say the good works of the church outweigh the need for good civil works

    Clearly, as the tax base declines, it ultimately leads to more customers for the church. And yeah, civil services should all be provided by churches and require a religious litmus test. Absolutely.

  26. 26.

    El Cid

    November 14, 2008 at 2:21 pm

    Maybe the Catholic Church should just disinvite Latinos, since they overwhelmingly supported Obama, and then their numbers could dwindle to a few dying older whites.

  27. 27.

    The Dense & Venally Offensive Svensker

    November 14, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    Churches who start going this far ought to have their tax-exempt status revoked.
    uh, no.
    the government does not get to decide when a church goes "too far" in its doctrine. please, get educated.

    The question is when a church gets involved in direct political action, which case you are no longer eligible for tax-exempt. Saying that you can’t get communion if you vote for a particular candidate seems to cross over that line.

  28. 28.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    November 14, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    No communion for worshippers? Hmmm, well, since the books of Acts says that Christians are supposed to stay away from meats offered to idols and blood in at least two different places, he’s doing them a favor. (refer to: Acts 15:29, Acts 21:25)

    "No, you cannot partake in my sin" – that’s a good stance, really.

  29. 29.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 14, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    Hyperlon,
    The government, specifically the IRS, does get to decide when doctrine attempts to influence electoral politics.
    Read "Church Targeted by IRS for Anti-War Sermon."
    Church/state separation is a two-way street. Nothing forbids a church from entering politics or making doctrinal declarations about one candidate or the other. They only jeopardize their tax-exempt status by doing so.

  30. 30.

    Mojotron

    November 14, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    the government does not get to decide when a church goes "too far" in its doctrine. please, get educated.

    I think I am educated and I’m fairly sure that it is the IRS’ job to determine what constitutes an actual "church" versus a PAC that name-drops God a lot.

  31. 31.

    Zifnab

    November 14, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    uh, no.
    the government does not get to decide when a church goes "too far" in its doctrine. please, get educated.

    The church, as a non-profit institute, isn’t allowed to fund raise or campaign for any given political candidate. This gets stretched pretty damn thin, but ultimately if a church starts running around handing out pamphlets that read "Vote for McCain (or Obama) in ’08!" they’re out of line and can get their tax exempt status revoked.

    In this case, however, the priest is arguing that if you vote for a pro-choice candidate (in this case Obama) you are committing a sin. If you are in a sinful state, you aren’t supposed to receive communion until you go through confession and repentance.

    Even beyond that, this is still a voluntary gesture. You can go up and receive communion in a sinful state and – generally – the Catholic Church won’t stop you. But if you do accept communion, it doesn’t do your immortal soul any good. This is the religious equivalent of the "do not use if pregnant or suffering from a lung condition" label they put on cigarette boxes. And it is rooted in the abortion issue, not generic partisan politics. So – legally speaking – its absolutely fair and fine. But, as I stated earlier, its ultimately rather naive and an ordained priest should know enough Church dogma and doctrine not to go around saying it.

  32. 32.

    Eric U.

    November 14, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    the problem with this idiot priest’s position is that he is spewing republican lies. I’m almost fine with the idea that he would say this simply because Obama is pro-choice, but he has gone beyond that into wingnut fantasyland. I’m sure Obama would rather you didn’t get an abortion. The republicans went through Obama’s votes and came up with an incredible string of logic errors to conclude Obama actually did want you to have an abortion as a preferred outcome. Crazy.

  33. 33.

    gex

    November 14, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    @nitpicker: Yes, but oddly enough a recent survey showed that the Christian right in this country supported torture. The numbers dropped if they were specifically reminded of the Golden Rule.

    To me that begged the question, why should we have to remind them of their beliefs in order for them to act in accordance with said beliefs?

  34. 34.

    South of I-10

    November 14, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    A friend who still goes to mass said there was some heavy duty arm twisting to vote for the pro-life candidate on the Sunday before the election. McCain was never mentioned by name, but it was clear who they meant. This is the same idiot priest who caused a stir here in the spring, when he told his congregation not to participate in the Komen race because part of Komen’s national funds go to Planned Parenthood.

  35. 35.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 14, 2008 at 2:40 pm

    @gex:
    Matthew 25:40:
    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

  36. 36.

    DonnaInMichigan

    November 14, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    I am a catholic
    I voted for Barack Obama

    I dare my priest to withhold my communion from me.

    DARE HIM.

  37. 37.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    November 14, 2008 at 2:43 pm

    @South of I-10:

    I read a diary on Kos about three weeks ago (right before the election) written by a Catholic about why he was leaving his church. He said the church as handing out literature with info stating they should vote for McCain. He said he didn’t think the clergy even looked at the info, just decided to place it in the missels and such.

  38. 38.

    Garrigus Carraig

    November 14, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    @Foxhunter:

    The tax base of the city has been eroded this church-owned property creep that they are on the verge of having to cut services.

    Amusingly, access to greater tax revenue was one of the main drivers for the Reformation. A sovereign could basically kick out the Church & the monasteries, & put all their land & property under taxation. Instant cash boost. So to that church in your town I say PRODESTANTIZM UR DOIN IT RONG

    As far as Catholic clergy telling parishioners how to vote, that was not part of the Catholicism of my ’80’s childhood. Makes no sense to me at all. A Catholic can’t perform an abortion? Check. Can’t get one? Got it. Can’t vote for a guy who refused to vote in the legislature to stop or reduce abortions in his jurisdiction? That’s a little far removed. Does that mean a Catholic can’t buy sushi in a restaurant owned by a guy whose wife is an abortionist?

  39. 39.

    Jeff

    November 14, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    Nitpicker I think gets right to the heart of the matter by demonstrating the one-sidedness of Fr. Newman’s attitude; do Bush supporters have the same obligation to confess that sin?

    But zifnab does miss somewhat when s/he asserts Newman’s "free speech / free religion rights". A Roman Catholic priest has no such rights when he speaks from the pulpit; his doctrine and his speech are controlled by the Pope through the local archdiocese.

    It’s time for the National Council of Catholic Bishops (or whatever it’s called), if not the Vatican itself, to shut clowns like Newman up by declaring that voting, irrespective of whom one votes for, does not disqualify one from Communion.

    This type of spiritual extortion benefits neither the Church nor the parishioner.

  40. 40.

    Rainy

    November 14, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    All churches should pay taxes from now on.

  41. 41.

    jake 4 that 1

    November 14, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    @Eric U.: And of the priests, bishops etc who say this (remember the bishop who, went after Kerry?) I’ve never heard one say anything about pro-death penalty candidates.

  42. 42.

    Michael D.

    November 14, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    Off topic question: What do you all think of Robert Gates remaining Secretary of Defense?

  43. 43.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 14, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    …just decided to place it in the missiles and such.

    The Catholics have missiles? Aw, shit. How will this affect the balance of power in Italy?
    Sorry, couldn’t resist.
    (Missals)

  44. 44.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    November 14, 2008 at 2:49 pm

    Amusingly, access to greater tax revenue was one of the main drivers for the Reformation. A sovereign could basically kick out the Church & the monasteries, & put all their land & property under taxation. Instant cash boost. So to that church in your town I say PRODESTANTIZM UR DOIN IT RONG

    Catholics aren’t Protestants. Catholics are the opposite of Protestants. You DO know what Protestants are, correct? I’m not saying Protestants are correct either, they’re both wrong. But, since they both offer the body and blood of Christ to their adherents, that is no surprise.

  45. 45.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    November 14, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    @Dennis – SGMM:

    Yeah, I knew I didn’t spell it right.

    Haha. I didn’t grow up going to a church where they had missiles (missals). I was surprised when I did attend a Catholic church with my ex-husband’s family once and found they were called that. A signal went off in my head.

  46. 46.

    HyperIon

    November 14, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    i stand by my post:

    the government does not get to decide when a church goes "too far" in its doctrine.

    the key word is doctrine. what this priest said is stupid IMO but it is not something that would trigger an IRS investigation (again IMO; IANAL & IANATE)

    and more importantly, this is not a church going too far. this is a priest. i doubt occasional crazy priests mouthing off can result in the catholic church losing its tax exempt status.

    Saying that you can’t get communion…

    He didn’t say "can’t get communion"; he said "should refrain from taking communion". So Michael is misrepresenting the position of the priest as "refusing Communion for Obama supporters."

  47. 47.

    AhabTRuler

    November 14, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: I think they were referring to Foxhunter’s post above, about a Protestant church.

  48. 48.

    Garrigus Carraig

    November 14, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: I assumed the church in Foxhunter’s town was Protestant, as he described it as "MEGA", & I’ve never heard of a Catholic megachurch. So first graph was in response to Foxhunter, second in response to the S.C. Catholic priest.

  49. 49.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    Okay, one dumb, out place question: How is it that the God who created the universe and supposedly permeates it to this day requires paid intermediaries?
    Anyone?
    Bueller?

  50. 50.

    HyperIon

    November 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    Michael D. commented: Off topic question: What do you all think of Robert Gates remaining Secretary of Defense?

    I think it is a good topic for a post.

  51. 51.

    Garrigus Carraig

    November 14, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Also, if Catholics are the "opposite" of Protestants, then where do the Eastern Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East fit in?

  52. 52.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    November 14, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    Well, I guess I didn’t follow the conversation that closely. Carry on.

  53. 53.

    Dennis - SGMM

    November 14, 2008 at 3:00 pm

    @HyperIon:
    Agreed. Gates appears to be a rather clear-eyed civil servant (In the best sense). Throwing out the baby with the bathwater isn’t good either.

  54. 54.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    November 14, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Also, if Catholics are the "opposite" of Protestants, then where to the Eastern Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East fit in?

    They are confused as to what they are, that’s all. All the churches are screwy, but they argue over which is screwier.

  55. 55.

    South of I-10

    November 14, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    @Dennis – SGMM: I can’t answer your question, but it sounds like you and my husband could have a really fun conversation about it over a couple of beers.

  56. 56.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    November 14, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Why do I not have permission to edit my own post? That’s strange.

    Add to #54: And they call that argument "Apologetics" LMAO

  57. 57.

    wingnuts to iraq

    November 14, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Off topic, what the hell is up with that Malkin picture on the left side? She looks like she is 60 f’ing years old.

  58. 58.

    ricky

    November 14, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    Notice that a parishoner may get communion if, having voted for Obama, they perform an act of contrition. Isn’t that what they tell the altar boys they are doing to them inside the confessional?

  59. 59.

    ricky

    November 14, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    Off topic question: What do you all think of Robert Gates remaining Secretary of Defense?

    He will not be allowed to return to the Church of
    Texas A&M without performing an act of contrition.

  60. 60.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    November 14, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    Notice that a parishoner may get communion if, having voted for Obama, they perform an act of contrition. Isn’t that what they tell the altar boys they are doing to them inside the confessional?

    Sounds like a big "fuck you" to me.

  61. 61.

    jake 4 that 1

    November 14, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    @wingnuts to iraq: I’ve been wondering that and have decided that she’s either really sick or PJTV made a very ham-fisted attempt to lighten her up a bit. Has anyone seen the ad with the "National Treasure" quote recently?

  62. 62.

    dobrojutro

    November 14, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    Off topic, what the hell is up with that Malkin picture on the left side? She looks like she is 60 f’ing years old.

    Those sassy ponytails take 2-3 years off her. 57 tops.

  63. 63.

    The Dense & Venally Offensive Svensker

    November 14, 2008 at 3:32 pm

    Catholics aren’t Protestants. Catholics are the opposite of Protestants. You DO know what Protestants are, correct? I’m not saying Protestants are correct either, they’re both wrong. But, since they both offer the body and blood of Christ to their adherents, that is no surprise.

    Most Protestant denominations don’t believe that the wine and bread are actual body and blood, but simply a remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice. The Lutherans may differ, but they’re very close to Catholics anyway — the still have saints, unlike other Prots.

  64. 64.

    "Fair and Balanced" Dave

    November 14, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    Dear Rev. Jay Scott Newman,

    As a person who proudly voted for Barack Obama, I have decided to "spread the wealth around". The particular "wealth" I’m referring to is the money I normally place in the church collection plate. I have now decided that money should go to someone with a working brain.

  65. 65.

    thereisnorule6

    November 14, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    @South of I-10: the philly cardinal all but said you will burn in hell if you vote for Obama. What has McCain done in his Senate career to outlaw abortion, directly (serious question)?

  66. 66.

    Michael D.

    November 14, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    @HyperIon: I wouldn’t be able to write a post on that, but I would be willing to post your thoughts! Send them to me at [email protected]/

  67. 67.

    wingnuts to iraq

    November 14, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    Protestants are quitters, that’s all I know.

  68. 68.

    28 Percent

    November 14, 2008 at 3:42 pm

    @Zifnab:

    For every Fr. Newman, there is Sr. Joan Chichester. Sister Joan actually touched on this some years ago. One of the things she said was to the effect that if you’re pro-life, even if the only lives you’re pro- are the pure, unborn, innocent, etc., then you ought to take some time to think about all the collateral abortions happening in Iraq. Because, of course, pregnant women are dying there too, and a person who is against abortion needs to really look very carefully at their beliefs if they’re ok with a fetus dying, as long as mom dies too.

    Sister Joan is imho the ne plus ultra of answers to the charge that religious people are, by definition, ignorant twits.

  69. 69.

    South of I-10

    November 14, 2008 at 3:42 pm

    I have no idea. I really do not understand what the church thinks it is going to accomplish. 40 + years of precedent is hard to overcome. I think the thinking is that the conservative candidate is more likely to stack the court with the "right" judges and overturn Roe v. Wade. But that would revert the decision back to the states, right?

  70. 70.

    28 Percent

    November 14, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    oh fuckaduck – wrong voice

  71. 71.

    djork

    November 14, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    Dear Rev. Jay Scott Newman,

    As a person who proudly voted for Barack Obama, I have decided to "spread the wealth around". The particular "wealth" I’m referring to is the money I normally place in the church collection plate. I have now decided that money should go to someone with a working brain.

    Why, I believe he mumbled some vague platitudes about it at some point. And he had Palin as his running mate. Also.

  72. 72.

    Foxhunter

    November 14, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    @Garrigus Carraig:
    @CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:

    Sorry to create any confusion …the church referenced in my post is Southern Baptist, staff of 65. Apologies for my omission.

  73. 73.

    South of I-10

    November 14, 2008 at 3:47 pm

    @28 Percent: I thought that sounded awfully reasonable . . .

  74. 74.

    Tattoosydney

    November 14, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    @28 Percent:

    oh fuckaduck – wrong voice

    Hee.

  75. 75.

    Zifnab

    November 14, 2008 at 3:59 pm

    But zifnab does miss somewhat when s/he asserts Newman’s "free speech / free religion rights". A Roman Catholic priest has no such rights when he speaks from the pulpit; his doctrine and his speech are controlled by the Pope through the local archdiocese.

    Right, but that has nothing to do with his tax status.

    oh fuckaduck – wrong voice

    Lulz. Still, thank you for the link. That’s deep stuff.

  76. 76.

    The Dense & Venally Offensive Svensker

    November 14, 2008 at 4:00 pm

    @28 Percent:

    oh fuckaduck – wrong voice

    It’s MyIQ and the goats — they get everyone off on the wrong foot.

  77. 77.

    Cyrus

    November 14, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    @HyperIon:

    HyperIon

    the government does not get to decide when a church goes "too far" in its doctrine. please, get educated.

    True, and taxing a church would have nothing to do with deciding if it has gone "too far." Freedom of religion is like freedom of the press: they both can say whatever they want (and believe and write whatever they want), but they still have to pay employees a minimum wage and keep their building up to code — and avoid political speech if they want to have tax-exempt nonprofit status. (Others have already said a lot about this, but I figure trying to throw in an explanatory analogy can’t hurt…)

  78. 78.

    Semanticleo

    November 14, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    Calfirnia’s Prop 8 (anti-Gay Marriage) passed narrowly and the Protests have intensified since last Tues.

    The Mormon Church donated millions to the campaign, and somehow activists have obtained a list of donors down to
    a small restaurant who gave 100 bucks. The protesters are engaging in similar strategies used by the religious Right, namely, boycotting businesses who proffered cash to help
    deny Gays the right to legal marriage in Calif.

    Pockets of violence, as well as active pursuit of removing
    Tax Exempt status seems to be near at hand for churches who mix politics with religion.

    Does ANYONE know the net worth of the Roman Catholic Church. I suspect the US holdings alone, would balance the Federal Budget Deficit.

  79. 79.

    Comrade Tax Analyst

    November 14, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    28 Percent
    oh fuckaduck – wrong voice

    Occupational hazard…it could happen to any spoof.

  80. 80.

    Comrade Ed Drone

    November 14, 2008 at 4:31 pm

    I have a question — "tax exempt" status comes from the IRS? I mean, we see the IRS investigate churches for ‘crossing the line’ (so far, only lefty churches, but still…). So what does that mean for the city whose property taxes are minimized by mega-churches with big land holdings? If the IRS takes away a church’s ‘status,’ does that devolve to local taxing authorities, too?

    If it does, we should see cities going to bat for the Federal Government against those tax-free properties in their confines, you know? I could see states or cities suing to have the IRS ‘do their job’ and make all that property available to be taxed. Since that hasn’t much happened, I’m assuming the IRS ‘status’ decisions don’t mean much to local taxing bodies. Too bad. I would like to see cities and towns and states take ‘tax exemption’ decisions into their own hands, you know?

    Ed

  81. 81.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    November 14, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    Does ANYONE know the net worth of the Roman Catholic Church. I suspect the US holdings alone, would balance the Federal Budget Deficit.

    If the secular state confiscates the property of a major religion then they have to start their own church as a substitute – it’s the "Henry VIII rule".

    Personally I think Obama has enough on his plate already without trying to become Pope Hopey the First of the Northanglican Church, so let’s take a pass on that one.

  82. 82.

    28 Percent

    November 14, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    btw, Tripletee, your comment in the other thread re: "real identity" – how did you know?

  83. 83.

    Semanticleo

    November 14, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    "Personally I think Obama has enough on his plate already without trying to become Pope Hopey the First of the Northanglican Church, so let’s take a pass on that one."

    The subject was taxes……I’m not suggesting we confiscate
    their property, just tax them on it……………………………..

  84. 84.

    Ash Can

    November 14, 2008 at 4:47 pm

    @28 Percent:

    oh fuckaduck – wrong voice

    LOLZ! And your spoofing on that last Palin thread was great. Bravo!

    On the subject at hand, the late Joseph Cardinal Bernardin echoed Sr. Joan’s sentiments when he preached about the "seamless garment" of life. While not letting pro-choicers off the hook, he made a lot of right-wingers uncomfortable by telling them that the Church didn’t look kindly upon their support for war or the death penalty either.

    I also recall Milwaukee bishop Rembert Weakland taking a stab at addressing the issue of abortion by convening round-table discussions with women from around Milwaukee who were pro-choice, some of whom had had abortions. His goal was to listen to their stories, discern why they believed and chose the way they did, in order to figure out ways the Church could better serve them, and in general serve women and their needs better. Needless to say, he was miles ahead of most of the rest of the Church in his thinking, and caught flak from his peers for it. When he later became embroiled in the sexual-misconduct scandals sweeping the Church some years ago, I broke down and wept.

  85. 85.

    Vince

    November 14, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    as a recovering catholic, i had to send this idiot priest a letter.

  86. 86.

    Indylib

    November 14, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:

    Pope Hopey the First

    win

  87. 87.

    BlueIA

    November 14, 2008 at 5:45 pm

    Remember back in October when some priests throughout the country used their pulpits to *tell* people how they should vote. These guys sent copies of their sermons to the IRS, basically a F-you guys and your tax exempt status BS.

    …The story goes that when he was running for re-election to the Senate in 1954, Lyndon Johnson was opposed by a couple of non-profits that urged voters to reject him and his radical communist ideas. (And you thought things were crazy today.) In response, Johnson had new language inserted into the section of the I.R.S. code, which defines a tax exempt entity. His addendum declared that an exempt organization “does not participate in or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.”
    …Now, in the middle of the 2008 election, several dozen pastors are challenging the amendment by speaking out in the pulpit in favor of a candidate (usually John McCain) and by sending the I.R.S. copies of the sermons in which they openly cross the line the law has drawn since 1954. At the same time, a bill (H.R. 2275) repealing the Johnson amendment has been introduced by Walter Jones, Republican of North Carolina. The bill has been referred to the House Ways and Means Committee where it awaits action.

    http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/politics-and-the-pulpit-once-again/

  88. 88.

    John PM

    November 14, 2008 at 5:45 pm

    @nitpicker: #9

    Torture is also an "intrinsic evil" and was much more directly supported by the spokespeople on the right than I’ve ever directly supported abortion. Does K-Lo still get to drink the blood of Christ?

    Well, of course she does. After all, in a previous life she was probably one of the Roman soldiers who tortured the hell out of Jesus.

    I have recently started taking my two oldest sons to Church now that they are reasonably able to sit still for 45 minutes. After reading about Kmiec’s experience, I have been on the lookout for any priest who might try to pull something like this. So imagine my surprise, when, a few weeks ago, the presiding priest delivers his homily and essentially comes out against the War on Drugs!

    O/T, but at that same Mass one of the readings included the phrase "you shall have no gods above me." My middle son, who I thought had not been paying attention, turned to me and said "Daddy, he said there is no God." If my son turns out to be an athiest, I will be able to blame the Church for telling him that there is no God.

  89. 89.

    SGEW

    November 14, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    I have recently started taking my two oldest sons to Church now that they are reasonably able to sit still for 45 minutes.

    Careful there. Some people see that as child abuse.

  90. 90.

    copithorne

    November 14, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    I wrote the priest a short email from their website.

    As I guess about 3500 others did.

    Today, his online church bulletin publishes a letter from the priest. It’s still pretty wrong, but the guy is very thoughtful.

    http://www.stmarysgvl.org/ourparish/2008-dear-friends-in-christ

  91. 91.

    r€nato

    November 14, 2008 at 6:43 pm

    I hope nobody sent a nasty-gram to this priest… There are lots of ways of letting him know what you think without being vicious.

    Over the course of history, being involved with politics hasn’t necessarily done the Catholic church any good in the long term.

    conservatives love to bemoan those horrible Europeans and how secular (and socialist!) they are.

    the reason Europeans don’t really pay much mind to the Church any longer, is because for centuries the Catholic Church was deeply involved in politics. It’s only natural to resent that, particularly when you’re already under the thumb of autocratic monarchs. Every grievance citizens/subjects have with government – high taxes, corruption, incompetence, wars, lack of freedoms, injustices – ends up reflecting upon the church too. It’s also true that mixing temporal power with religious power inevitably corrupts the clergy. Read up on the Renaissance popes, for instance.

    The Mexicans also rebelled against the Catholic Church’s involvement in politics about a century ago… if the bible-bangers were smart, they’d get involved in politics as little as possible.

  92. 92.

    RobW

    November 14, 2008 at 6:43 pm

    being reduced to attempting religious blackmail on your parishoners is clearly a last-ditch effort in what he can sense is a loosing battle.

    Kind of a Hail Mary, then?

    (ducks and runs)

  93. 93.

    Sasha

    November 14, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    As a practicing Catholic, I really hope that Rev. Newman’s superiors tell him to knock that shit off. The official position of the Church is to be "in the world, not of it" and not to be overtly political. (Reportedly in 2004 when visiting the Vatican, Bush asked Pope John Paul II if he would please instruct American bishops and clergy to more loudly discuss social issues as abortion, homosexuality, etc., in an apparent attempt to boost the GOP that election cycle. The pontiff apparently told him to go sod off.)

  94. 94.

    SGEW

    November 14, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    I’m looking forward to when the Catholic church officially denies communion to anyone who’s registered in the Democratic party. Then we can declare them a political organization and tax them into oblivion.

    Tax the Church!

  95. 95.

    Church Lady

    November 14, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    I don’t have a problem with it because the priest isn’t denying communion to anyone, he’s just saying that he thinks that those voting for a pro-choice candidate ought to deny it to themselves until they have gone to confession.

    I was baptized a Catholic, raised in the church, married in the church and baptized my children in the church. Shortly thereafter, I left the church, much to the pain of my parents. Why? I am pro-choice and also in favor of contraception. I felt that if I couldn’t talk the talk or walk the walk, it was hypocritical for me to sit in that pew. That was almost eighteen years ago. I still miss it.

  96. 96.

    glesslib

    November 14, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    The Catholic hierarchy and a lot of the everyday priests can’t get it through their heads that it’s not 1955 anymore. They no longer stand in a position of authority over members of the Church. Fr. Newman, on the other hand, is apparently trying to start his very own, more conservative branch of the Church. The Pope told the Bishops to butt out of politics….this was conveyed to Bishops all over the world, not just in the U. S. This Pope also told Catholics that they could vote for pro-choice candidates as long as that was not the sole reason they were chosing that candidate. If other policies of the candidate made him or her a better choice, in the Catholic voter’s opinion, they could vote their conscience. So this jerk is off base all the way around. Catholics voted for Obama by more than 50 percent…actually somewhere between 54 and 59 percent. So no one is listening to Fr. Newman….and he’s going to be mighy lonely if he keeps this up. We don’t like to be told how to vote.

  97. 97.

    glesslib

    November 14, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    The Catholic hierarchy and a lot of the everyday priests can’t get it through their heads that it’s not 1955 anymore. They no longer stand in a position of authority over members of the Church. Fr. Newman, on the other hand, is apparently trying to start his very own, more conservative branch of the Church. The Pope told the Bishops to butt out of politics….this was conveyed to Bishops all over the world, not just in the U. S. This Pope also told Catholics that they could vote for pro-choice candidates as long as that was not the sole reason they were chosing that candidate. If other policies of the candidate made him or her a better choice, in the Catholic voter’s opinion, they could vote their conscience. So this jerk is off base all the way around. Catholics voted for Obama by more than 50 percent…actually somewhere between 54 and 59 percent. So no one is listening to Fr. Newman….and he’s going to be mighy lonely if he keeps this up. We don’t like to be told how to vote.

  98. 98.

    tripletee

    November 14, 2008 at 11:15 pm

    @28 Percent:

    btw, Tripletee, your comment in the other thread re: "real identity" – how did you know?

    IIRC (it was a while ago), you slipped up like you did in this thread and posted non-spoof under your spoof handle, but that time you referenced a previous comment or something that gave away your "real" identity. I don’t think I was the one who figured it out – it was another member of the infamous BJ mailing list. Since you weren’t on the list, I think we decided it would be impolite to out you.

    BTW, if you’re interested in joining the list, give a shout in one of the threads. I’ll have to double-check with the other members but after your work today I think you probably have a standing invitation. :)

  99. 99.

    bikelib

    November 15, 2008 at 12:04 am

    Isn’t Catholic doctrine also staunchly anti-death penalty? So, using this asshat priest’s logic, anyone in favor of capital punishment…..

  100. 100.

    CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII

    November 15, 2008 at 2:55 am

    Most Protestant denominations don’t believe that the wine and bread are actual body and blood, but simply a remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice. The Lutherans may differ, but they’re very close to Catholics anyway—the still have saints, unlike other Prots.

    It doesn’t matter if it’s in remembrance or not. Drinking blood is prohibited in the book of Acts, by James. The act of drinking even in remembrance, knowing it’s supposed to be the blood of someone considered to be the Christed one (ie: "Drink, this is my blood…"), is prohibited in the book of Acts in at least two places. (see my #28 above)

    Moreover, man cannot be a sacrifice for sins.

    Even more moreover, this entire world has been seduced by a pack of lies about this supposed savior, but, since it’s the common accepted story, I lose the debate, even if I am correct. No matter, I have studied judiciously and I recognize the delusions of the seduced when I see them.

    Examples:
    The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)

    But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. (Jeremiah 31:30)

    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)

    A sinless Jesus could not die to wipe away the sins of sinners.

    The God-man myth is a lie.

  101. 101.

    28 Percent

    November 15, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    zomg list me!

  102. 102.

    Bob Barbaque

    November 15, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    Since the Church is now a wing of the GOP,make them pay taxes.

  103. 103.

    YogaforCynics

    November 15, 2008 at 11:50 pm

    I’m with ya on this–also couldn’t be more thrilled with Rush Limbaugh going overtly racist, Grover Norquist and others saying McCain didn’t bring up Bill Ayers enough and the Republican mob screaming for Palin in 2012. If they keep this up, Obama won’t even need to campaign for reelection….

  104. 104.

    HRA

    November 16, 2008 at 7:57 am

    I am sure this priest has given communion to divorced parishioners without making any statements about it. I think his action(s) are mostly linked to the prominent money-giving parishioner who has complained to him about too many Obama supporters in the congregation.

    After taking my children to the Catholic church as my responsibility for their coming of age, I slowly drifted away from attending. For years I was a prisoner of their sermonizing against other religions and being asked for money to support the priest’s new cars or vacations. I found I could do without the instant Sunday headache in trying to explain these sermons to my children. After they made their confirmation, I told them they were free to chose their own religion.

    As I remember, the Eastern Orthodox church broke away from the Pope rule ages ago. The Catholic church does recognize their baptism.

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    November 14, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    […] try to turn the clock back to pre-Vatican II. Now, its sister parish a couple miles away has gone one step further: A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from […]

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