There seems to be a wave of deadly attacks in India aimed at westerners:
Maharashtra state government spokesman Bhushan Gagri said 78 people killed and about 200 wounded, while police confirmed 26 deaths.
Among the dead is the head of the Maharashtra state’s anti-terror squad, who apparently died in the violent aftermath of the attacks rather than being a target for the killers.
The attacks included five shootouts and two grenade attacks, said a police officer at Mumbai’s police control room.
Mumbai police spokesman Satish Katsa said gunmen have taken over the Taj Mahal Hotel and Hotel Oberoi, and were holding hostages on multiple floors.
Earlier, A.N. Roy, the police chief of Maharashtra state, said his force was still involved with suspected militants at the two five-star hotels.
IBN reported ongoing gun battles at both hotels. At least two explosions were reported at the Taj.
One witness told local reporters gunmen had tried to find people with U.S. or British passports.
While a tragedy, the Thanksgiving holidays seems to be a particularly bad time to lash out at Americans, as most of them are at home or heading home, and probably not in luxury hotels in India. maybe they were just looking for westerners in general. Let’s hope the number stays under 100 and order is soon restored.
As a side note, I see that Daniel Larison has decided to beat up on Max Boot a bit, as I requested.
pharniel
this does, in fact, seem like a really bad plan.
of course, it could be one of those subtle "hey bitches, we can still fuck you up" messages from a neighboring country or gurilla group.
The Other Steve
An armed society is a police society.
Ugh
I do wonder why the terrorists fncks don’t do something similar here.
KCinDC
I’ve been wondering that for a long time, Ugh. You’d think they’d at least have had someone with a suicide vest at a mall, or in one of the interminable security lines at an airport.
Zifnab
@Ugh: Airport security is just that good.
Brachiator
November, and especially December, are prime travel times in India. The weather is warm and mild. Americans and Europeans looking to get away from cold winters at home find India very hospitable. Some years back, I traveled to India at precisely this time of year, and stayed in one of the hotels that was attacked.
There are fewer American tourists in November than in December, but this kind of attack could lead to significant numbers of December tour cancellations.
If the idea is to inflict current pain and future economic damage, this attack does have a sad, sick, logic to it.
smiley
With only a month between Thanksgiving and the Christmas-time festivities, many Americans have to choose, prioritize if you will, the two holidays. I, for example (divorced, no kids), haven’t been to Thanksgiving with my family in years. I choose to spend a longer time with them at Christmas, which I haven’t missed since I was either married, and spent it with her family, or in graduate school. I’m sure there are plenty of Americans in 5-star hotels all over the globe 24/7/365. That said, I doubt the dirt bags in India knew about the holiday… or would care.
Comrade Jake
@Brachiator:
Probably much, much less so this year, particularly for Americans. The airfares have been exorbitant.
The timing mostly makes sense from the perspective of getting a lot of attention. I’m not sure they really need to find too many Americans to make an impression.
Ugh
I know they supposedly like the big, 9/11-style attacks (or at least al Qaeda does), but I think they underestimate the impact of, as you say, a suicide vest at a mall, or even four guys with M-16s.
Cain
Also a lot of indian expatriots tend to spend the month of December for holidays. Since they can get quite a bit off due to Christmas/Hannakah etc etc.
Still, a pretty bold stroke. I’d like to know who is responsible for it. 10 bucks India decides to blame Pakistan cuz you know it’s great for tourism in the area.
cain
Brick Oven Bill
I note that this group, that makes a big deal out of perceived oppression by Mormons and Focus on the Family, have not mentioned the word Islam or Muslim in this discussion.
2:10 *** 2:99 *** 2:104 *** 2:171 *** 3:28 *** 3:48 *** 3:73 *** 4:63 *** 4:89 *** 4:101 *** 4:144 *** 5:51 *** 5:59 *** 5:60 *** 6:106 *** 8:55 *** 9:5 *** 9:29 *** 9:30 *** 33:21
You are well trained.
protected static
Well, Oven-Mitt Bill – violence in India could come from Islamic militants, Hindu nationalists, Sikh separatists, Tamil nationalists, Maoists… India’s got lots of groups with both gripes and guns. No one’s ever heard of the group that initially claimed responsibility, so, in the absence of more information, fuck off.
Better yet, just fuck off, information or no.
Brick Oven Bill
Denial.
protected static
@Thick-as-a-Brick Bill: And in your case, stupidity.
Brick Oven Bill
I know you are but what am I?
Cain
@protected static:
Apparently, Deccan Mujahadeen is claiming responsibility. Some crazy wild eyed group. I have no idea what their point is with all this. The Deccan part refers to the Deccan plateau which is southern part of India. You might consider large cities like Bangalore is on the Deccan plateau. It’s why the weather is (was) so damn good.
Luckily, no family of mine was in the vicinity. Otherwise, life would be sucking right now.
cain
Jeff
Real time updates on the attack via twitter.
Brick Oven Bill
I am shocked, shocked, to hear that this group self-identifies as Islamic. In their honor, here is a link to the texts of the Qur’an. The guy who wrote it doesn’t like any religion and takes apart the Bible, Book of Mormon, as well as the Qur’an at his web-site. I encourage you to read and compare the critiques of all three books.
The link above is to Chapter 9, Repentance, which is a good place to begin if you have not been introduced to the texts of Islam.
Melinda
BIB, er, BOB, there have been problems, expressed through terrorist acts, between Hindus and Muslims in India since there have been Hindus and Muslims and certainly since the British f*cked up Indian independence. These are territorial conflicts, not attempts to force one bunch of people to abide by the religious precepts of another bunch of people. What’s going on now is more of the same; there’s been much heightened violence in India since spring of this year. You guys didn’t know it was going on, someone murders a bunch of westerners and now you know it’s going on. Like, duh. To try to tie this to the Global War on Terra (PUN INTENDED) betrays a complete lack of familiarity with what’s happening in the world.
Brick Oven Bill
I knew this must be the fault of the British Melinda. Thanks. I encourage you to read the texts.
les
Nice definition of bob on most any topic.
Svensker
Dear Mr. Bill, please take your racism and stuff it. Thanks.
Glad to see Larison beat up on Boot. Max Boot and Michael Ledeen are two of the most toxic, nasty pieces of shit extant. Why they are still allowed in anything considered "polite" society is beyond me. They really deserve extraordinary rendition and coercive interrogation (both of which they are both so enthusiastic about). Bastards.
Cain
@Brick Oven Bill:
I encourage you to read indian history. The british fucked up a lot of shit with their divide and rule bit. That’s how they controlled the population by whispering in the muslim ear and then the hindu ear. It’s why Jinnah ended up creating Pakistan because he listened to the British concern trolling him about hindu hedgemony.
The british has done this in any number of places. We’re still paying for British foreign policy just like we are still paying for Reagan’s crap in the central and south America.
cain
JWW
John,
Does the number 100 have something rational behind it. I guess maybe if only 99 families have to grieve then it won’t be too bad, in your book. Then again if it were to hit 100, you may feel a little different.
Well why don’t you total them all since 1993, and while you are searching don’t include combatants. Of course do not include the locals, that would force you to use a calculator.
As to order being restored, get outside and look at the 1,2 or 3 persons killed each day inside your own country. That is to say in any major city and multiply it by 100. I did mean murder not a heart attack of traffic accident.
Brick Oven Bill
They blindly memorize those texts in the Madrassas. There is no math or science or art. Here is an account of a Iranian-American man who attended one in Bangladesh.
demimondian
I see Camp Oven Bill is over here quoting "texts". Isn’t it interesting that just last week, he was quoting the same "texts" in support of an alleged invasion of Israel during the next "dark of the moon".
Maybe the terrorists confused India with Israel — they both start with "I", after all — and day with night, Bill?
Or maybe you’re just another loser who’s taking stuff out of context to try to create the race war you so desperately want?
Ed Marshall
BOB was born gibbering on the internets about Muslims and the Protocols of the Elder of Mecca every time something blew up, no one trained him. That’s what normal people do.
Perry Como
Hai guise! I just wnated to drp n n say u shuld read The Protocols of the Elderz of Mohammed!!!11eleven
Itz an inside look n2 wut teh islamonazimuslimcryptofascistsLOL beleave.
kthxbai!
Perry Como
@Ed Marshall: Jinx!LOL
Calouste
@Brick Oven Bill:
At least 80 people have just been killed.
I guess it’s the usual "conservative value" of scoring points of other people’s deaths? Are you Rudy Giulliani in disguise?
Now fuck off from this site and never come back.
Tattoosydney
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Please do not panic. We regret to inform you that this thread has been overrun with wingnut.
Please exit quietly and calmly and do not make eye contact with the trolls.
demimondian
@Tattoosydney: "The only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to ignore the trolls."
Or something like that…
Comrade Kevin
If you want updates you can find them at IBNLive, an Indian TV network.
All the reports I have read have stated that nobody has ever heard of this "Deccan Mujahideen" group, and that the phone call could be a hoax, or that the name could be a cover for some other group.
Indylib
OT But our President-Elect and his family are out and out decent human beings.
demimondian
@Indylib: Indeed. Good for him and them.
Paleo Pat
Sorry, but my give a flying fuck meter is on zero. when it comes to this.
The United States of America put itself into this position, thanks to a Neo-Conservative Presidential Administration, who was hell bent on spreading western style democracy in a part of the world that does not believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah.
We have reaped what we have sown.
….and I am a Paleo Conservative, Libertarian…..
-Pat
Cain
The really cool part is you know it’s not some kind of publicity stunt since he’s been doing that for awhile now (according to what I read..)
cain
Comrade Kevin
@Paleo Pat:
Sorry, what? The US put India into this position how?
Jenkins
@Paleo Pat:
I get the feeling Paleo Pat’s flying fuck meter is like those 70’s speedometers that only went up to 85.
Ed Marshall
Pat, I don’t know exactly what went down today but it may have absolutely zero to do with us. India is a screwed up snakepit with thirty or forty different separation movements, weird Hindu hard-liners who occasionally create false flag attacks in an attempt to gin up a war with the Muslim population, rogue or maybe not-so-rogue ISI elements with their own agenda, four years ago Indian Christians carried out a co-ordinated bombing that killed forty-four people and injured over one-hundred. For all we know they were crazy Baptists.
demimondian
@Comrade Kevin: We tried to bring Western style democracy into a country with a fifty-plus year old Western style democracy by doing nothing.
Or something like that.
Cain
I’m waiting for some Jain religion terrorists. That would be a big head scratcher. :-) I’ve never understood Hindu hard-liners. It’s like in order to save hinduism we should not act hindu. Whatever. Hardliners are just people who want to keep the status quo. Meh. I know some hard-liners.. I totally disagree with their stance on everything.
cain
Ed Marshall
They are represented within the LTTE….
Cain
Jain???! I thought they were all tamils. Every Jain I’ve met came from the north. If they were part of the LTTE I wouldn’t consider them Jain anymore.
cain
Tattoosydney
@demimondian:
Believe me, I like a good troll baiting as much as anyone… but I have my doubts when it descends to the level of:
and
demimondian
@Cain and @Ed Marshall: There are so many things wrong with the idea of a Jani terrorist. Are there *truly* Jani among the Tamil Tigers?
John Cole
No, you fucking half-witted semi-literate drunkard. With 78 deaths reported at the onset of the attack with sketchy reporting, I assumed there would be more deaths and hoping it owuld end up under 100, because several hundred is very possible. You claim you were in the military, you should know that first reports are always wrong.
Asshole. Tired of you. Banned.
On to asshole #2-
Because when I wrote this, no one knew who was responsible. Get the fuck out of here with your race-baiting. LGF is that way. You are banned. Go cut some holes in your pillow cases.
Some days this blog is not worth the fucktarderry that crawls out of the underbrush.
Ed Marshall
Yes.
It’s not a religious war, it’s just about what language you speak. There are Jain monks in the LTTE leadership.
demimondian
@Ed Marshall: I understand the sociology of the Sri Lankan war. It’s just that ahimsa is the archtypical Jainish concept — and it is hard to reconcile evoking terror, much less causing physical harm, with the practice of ahimsa…
Laura W
@John Cole:
I am SO Sorry I did not read this thread before posting on the death penalty thread.
I will ban myself. Save you the trouble.
TenguPhule
Sometimes I think we should be confined to our own planet lest we contaminate others.
Ed Marshall
If you are looking around for good religions, you are just going to get disappointed over and over. All of the adherents seem to find ways to ignore core precepts.
Indylib
@TenguPhule:
I’ve always thought that if there are aliens out there keeping tabs on us ala Star Trek: Insurrection they wouldn’t touch us with fucking 10-foot pole for at least another couple hundred years.
protected static
@Laura W: I don’t think it’s the drunkard part John was objecting to…
TenguPhule
The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us.
Indylib
@TenguPhule:
Isn’t that the truth. lol
Laura W
@protected static: Ooooooohhhhhhh! Never mind then.
Unbanning myself now.
demimondian
@Indylib: For my part, I’ll keep searching for any conclusive evidence of sentient terrestrial life.
KXB
A relative of mine, who has been living in Chicago for several years now, is scheduled to fly with his wife to Mumbai tomorrow. They were planning to take an extended vacation, splitting time between visiting his mom in Mumbai, and her family in New Delhi. He is still flying out, but he is shaken. His father was killed in the Mumbai blasts of 1993, when he was 13. There are few sights as sobering as seeing a 13 year old boy supervise the cremation of his father. For now, he will be spared doing that for his mother
As others have mentioned, there are dozens of armed groups in India, each with their list of grievances. But I would guess that blame lies with Indian Mujhedien, which is the new name of Student Islamic Movement of India (SIMI).
Indylib
@demimondian:
Chicago might be a good place to start about now.
Cain
@demimondian:
Yeah, exactly! I mean when you have Jain priests out there who uses brushes to sweep insects out of your paths so you don’t kill them is a far fall to inspiring terror. You aren’t Jain at that point.
BTW just got off the phone with my uncle, they were up watching the tv till 3am. The two hotels are still burning, and there is nobody on the streets, no people, no cars, nothing. If you haven’t lived in India, that’s very wierd as there is always some kind of noise pollution. No doubt things are very eerie over there.
cain
Atanarjuat
C’mon, lefties… the "religion of peace" is just celebrating a little jihad. For all of you unwavering, liberal multiculturalists, what’s not to love?
A Joyful Jihad Jubilee, indeed. So what if some westerners get hurt — or even outright killed — during this most holy of Islamic rituals? After all, those of us who don’t believe in Allah are just a bunch of filthy kafirs anyway, and we probably deserve what’s coming to us after so many decades of oppressing Arabs and supporting Israel, etc., etc. You know in your very bleeding little liberal hearts that it’s true, so don’t be shy and send those terrorists… er, peaceful Islamists in India your support and understanding of their most sacred cause, in the name of Allah and all that.
-Country First.
Cain
@KXB:
I can imagine, when i saw the pictures of the train station it was very unsettling as I’ve walked that very floor countless of times when I’ve visited.
The chief anti-terrorist guy who got killed lives about 4 blocks from our house in Mumbai. He died 15 minutes after giving a TV interview. What moron would go into battle without a bullet proof vest? He had his helmet and then goes into a battle zone. Same with the other two. They should be at some secure location doing the planning not taking a gun and going out there themselves. Jeezus, teh stupid. It burns!
Our house is near Dadar station the 3rd most important station in Mumbai as it links the western railway with central railway so just about every major train stops there. They had that cleared out as well.
cain
Cain
Man, John rarely bans and he bans two people in a single minute. Congrats guys, that’s not easy to do. You must truly be A class assholes.
cain
Comrade Kevin
@Atanarjuat:
It takes a special sort of asshole to make that kind of "spoof" post.
Cain
@Atanarjuat:
You can try to bait us, but we ain’t fallen for it. Muslims in India are one of the nicest people you’ll meet. They are culturally like their hindu counterparts.
They are however given the sheer amount of population a lot of wild eyed religious based groups all over from all religions. Hell as someone noted there are even people whose entire creed of their religion is "do no harm".
So nice try.
cain
smiley
@protected static:
Something tells me that Laura W is a drunkard’s dream if I ever did see one.
I’ve been looking for one of those.
KXB
Indian domestic intelligence gathering, like most operations of the Indian government, is pathetic. The external spy agency, Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), is actually pretty decent. And poverty is no excuse. Indonesia is also a developing nation, with multiple ethnicities and a wide geographic area to cover – yet it has made major strides in the past couple of years in cracking down on its own homegrown terror groups.
demimondian
@A. Ted Nuguent: Your shtick isn’t funny, dude. In fact, it’s actually kind of vile. Give it up.
Cain
@KXB:
Yes, if they had a half way decent one they could have prevented this. The indian government has shown a lot of incompetence, and I’ve known that for any number of years of watching them. Sometimes when I listen to the oral flatulence that comes out of right wingers about government being bad, I think they are thinking about India as a role model. You should have experienced the 80s there. You go into that country as a democrat, you’ll come out as a Republican.
cain
Cain
I wasn’t quite sure what made her mad..
cain
Comrade Stuck
@Atanarjuat:
You picked a bad day to start sniffing glue Atanut.
It’s a good day for a Hat Trick Senor Cole.
Atanarjuat
I just read upthread a bit more carefully and saw that two folks got banned for pointing out the obvious.
So as not to offend the host of this blog, I’ll self-moderate and wait until even more obvious details are reported in the LMSM that will confirm what everyone already knows, but dare not say NOW for fear of offending the Multiculturally Correct.
-Country First.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
While I don’t agree with any hostage taking at all, doing it at five star hotels abroad during a season when regular hard-working Americans are preparing to go home for the holidays does have a method that targets those who are too rich and too self-important for their own good.
I’m not condoning it, just saying, if I were to target rich assholes, I’d probably do something similar.
smiley
@Cain:
Dude, that’s a quote from a classic American country/rock song. Sorry about that.
I appreciate your insight about India politics and I hope your family is safe.
s.
demimondian
@CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:
That’s not even a funny joke, Rome. One of my colleagues was in Mumbai today. She went offline suddenly at about 11am PST. I’m not panicking — there are lots of good reasons that might have happened — but I’m a trifle concerned.
protected static
@Cain: No noise? That’s gotta be weird in the extreme…
Laura W
@smiley: errrrr……thanks?
(For the laugh, anyway. In short supply tonight.)
Laura W
@Cain: No mad here.
Also hoping for safety for your family and friends.
Laura W, Cripple Creek, NC
Jenkins
@smiley:
Technically, a classic Canadian one. But only technically.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
I am sorry to hear about your colleague. I hope she contacts someone soon.
I said I didn’t condone it, but, if someone were to target rich assholes, that’s probably a good way to make sure few of the unintended targets are involved.
maxbaer (not the original)
John, thanks for the link to Larison. Between what he says and the Bacevich book, I have only tempered hopes for an Obama administration. Hope always springs eternal, though. Happy Thanksgiving!
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
::pointing and laughing at Atan, who seems to think our own American "religion of peace" is different and more justified in some way, obviously::
Did you ever happen to think, Atan, the the problem is not with PEACE, but with RELIGION?
smiley
@Laura W:
Just kidding, Laura. There’s such thing as a drunkard’s dream but there’s no such thing as a dream drunkard.
bago
Blame brachiator.
smiley
@Laura W:
.
Cool Laura, really cool.
KCinDC
I was surprised it took BOB so long to discover this place, and unsurprised that he managed to get himself banned so quickly. John Cole doesn’t have the patience of a Hilzoy, and in this case that’s a good thing. Imam BOB stunk up Obsidian Wings for far too long with his lectures on the true meaning of Islam.
Comrade Stuck
@Atanarjuat:
What obvious is that Atan, that a religion of circa one billion people should be condemned for the actions of a few. Your kind of reasoning can be captured in a single word. Bigot!. You have officially jumped the shark pal. And no longer can wear the protective shield of spoof. You have became the real deal. Have a nice Turkey Day. A PUN INTENDED.
Cain
@smiley:
More of an interested by-stander. My uncle feeds me most of the news.
cain
protected static
I think At-an-asshat’s math is off… I’ve counted at least 4 people who’ve pointed out the obvious fact that he’s a bigoted asshole, and none of them have been banned…
Cain
@protected static:
You’re tellin me! It’s like a cone of silence across the entire city!
cain
kommrade reproductive vigor
Speaking of cultural ignorance, the PJTV ads are making my computer stupid. When it starts singing "Daaaaaisy, Daaaaaisy," it’ll be all John’s fault.
protected static
@Laura W: I think if being a drunkard (habitual or occasional) was exclusionary criteria, there would be a lot more bannings hereabouts.
Laura W
@protected static: Indeed. There would be no hereabouts hereabout.
Baba Wawa with Barack Obama.
Yeow. That sucks to sound out.
Comrade Stuck
@Cain:
And this is why this particular attack is very different and portends an ominous future, not only for India but worldwide. Regardless of who is behind it, the terror masters around the world are taking note of the broad and devastating effect this commando type attack has had on a major international city. AQ and others have only been interested in the big grandiose (and expensive) bomb attacks. That may well change.
Ed Marshall
Well, it’s holiday weekend and this is depressing shit and I’m trying to get drunk and instead I’m about to have three beers and turn in because I suck.
smiley
booga booga booga. RUN AWAY!!!! IIIEEE!!! We’re all going to die!!!
Comrade Stuck
@smiley:
I’m sure the people of Mumbai tonight would be heartened by your smart mouth. Huh Smiley.
Ed Marshall
Maybe I’ll wake up tomorrow and AQ has decided to blow up all the malls using this logic but I’d bet not if I had to.
Their last pass at the U.S. dropped the WTC and set the Pentagon on fire. These targets were important psychologically and if the next one isn’t a nuke dropped on D.C. or something it’s a signal that they are losing.
foo
Some soliarity would be nice, on this and your own blogs.
for example:
see here
Comrade Stuck
@Ed Marshall:
I don’t think we have much to worry about here in the US. It’s overseas and especially Europe that is vulnerable.
No Blood for Hubris
Destabilizing India benefits whom?
Oh right.
Those guys in them thar caves.
Destablize India, destabilize Pakistan. Two nuclear nations.
Note the coordination, the simplicity, and the large bang for few bucks. Ring a bell?
protected static
@Cain: I’ve never been to Mumbai, but I’ve been to Trivandrum, Thrissur, and Mysore (it was a whirlwind kind of thing, visiting my wife’s stepfather’s family for 3 weeks). I needed earplugs to sleep everywhere but Thrissur, and that’s only because the cousin we stayed with lives on the outskirts of the city. The idea of Mumbai being quiet is pretty mind-boggling.
Comrade Stuck
@No Blood for Hubris:
if
L. E. T. plus Pak ISI = big trouble for region, the NUKE kind
smiley
@Comrade Stuck:
I wasn’t making fun of the deaths in India. I was commenting on those who think the attacks in India today were a sign that we’re next, which is what every neocon has wanted us to believe since 9/12/2001. That"s all. No more, no less.
Comrade Stuck
@smiley:
Fuck the neocons. They and their scarmongering are defeated, at least for the time being. Democrats are in charge now and will have to deal with this shit in a responsible way. And that doesn’t mean becoming reactionaries on the flip side whenever someone tries to have a thoughtful conversation about terrorism.
protected static
@smiley:
That’s one of the things that’s bugged the hell out of me about these clash-of-civilizations-Gates of Vienna-style hysterics. Treating these incidents like they’re all the product of some kind of monolithic, sooperseekritglobalIslamofascist cabal is a.) ignorant and b.) bad policy.
Thinking that Hamas, Hezbollah, the Islamic Brotherhood, AQ, Kashmiri separatists, Chechen separatists, Bosniac militants, the Taliban, and the Moro Brigades have anything in common other than the fact that they are (kinda sorta) coreligionists is amazingly stupid. They have differing ideologies, motivations, and goals, and as such need to be dealt with differently. Treating them as though they’re all heads of the same hydra increases the likelihood of that actually happening by driving them together…
No Blood for Hubris
"increases the likelihood of that actually happening by driving them together…"
Like they couldn’t figure this out by themselves?
Pffft.
TenguPhule
Bush may have come the closest to making that happen.
Before, they were all fighting each other as much as trying to cause trouble. Now, they get a common enemy which forces at least limited cooperation in regions.
It figures that the people who don’t believe in evolution would put it in action to terrorist organizations.
Comrade Stuck
Having George Bush and his neocon thugs tackle the problem is the equivalent of throwing gasoline on a brush fire. The us versus them mentality has greatly set back any possible progress in mitigating the local aspects that PS pointed out. Although, I think AQ is different, in that it’s leaders and ideology is for worldwide Islamic Hegemony that cannot be reconciled through peaceful means IMO.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
True, when Bush said he was a uniter and not a divider, he really meant he was uniting his own contrived enemies against us and dividing us while doing it.
Phoenix Woman
@CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:
Yep. See also Terrorist Strategy 101: A Quiz.
Medicine Man
The really sad part, Cain, is that if the Bush administration were even half as competent at British-style divide and rule or Reagan-style puppet government installation, the whole Iraq thing may not have blown up the way it did. As terrible as the previous empires were, at least they were skilled at their terribleness.
Tattoosydney
Earlier, just after John banned the wingnuts, I was going to post a comment that:
Apparently no baiting was necessary:
Ataramalamadingdong – you are an arsehole. If you are a real person, you are a racist arsehole. If you are spoof, then you are an arsehole pretending to be a racist arsehole (which is almost worse).
Fuck. Right. Off.
arnott
hi John
The terrorists in India are attacking foreigners to get the attention of the world. The attack is a mix from Pakistani and local terrorists.
arnott
Jay
While a tragedy, the Thanksgiving holidays seems to be a particularly bad time to lash out at Americans, as most of them are at home or heading home, and probably not in luxury hotels in India.
Actually, Thanksgiving is a prime time for expat Americans to go on holiday, as it is a holiday for us but nobody else, so we get time off but also have cheap hotels and plane fare. We’d just go to the Australian coast, but somebody has probably gone to India.
wobbly
Wow, you can get live video on NDTV from Mumbai.
Cain
@CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:
I wouldn’t assume that they are rich or anything. Staying at the Oberoi is about 300 bucks a day. Some normal people pay that much on a regular vacation depending on where and the quality of the place. But it hardly qualifiies as "rich’.
cain
Cain
@protected static:
I’m not sure if if it is that bad. But then I can probably sleep with some noise. Mumbai and most other places I’ve been to in India tends to shut down around 9-10pm. In our particular neighborhood it’s fairly quiet at night.
cain
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
These are five star hotels in a city of 14 million people. I’m sure there were plenty of hotels that cost much less.
I’ve never had the pleasure of staying at a five star hotel, and my father was a millionaire. Granted, that’s not a definite clue that these people are any more well off than your regular serf, but, to me it seems a pretty good indication that more often than not, the people who stay at these hotels are not your regular Joe’s and Jane’s.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Question:
These gunmen/terrorists were going through the hotels asking for American and British citizens to identify themselves so the gunmen could take them hostage… is this possibly bin Ladin’s way of trying to blame this on Pakistan (where he is supposed to be hiding) and draw Obama into the GWOT? Perhaps they are calling themselves Decca Mujahadeen because if they claimed responsibility as al Qaeda, Obama would see through it and not play?
I have no special knowledge that would argue for or against of course, it’s just a curious question I have. Some of these terrorists have been identified as Pakistani.
I also find it very interesting that Indian TV is mentioning over and over Obama’s reaction, along with the PM’s of Great Britain and Pakistan. They aren’t mentioning much about Bush’s response. It seems the world considers Obama to be president already.
TheDeadlyShoe
I also find it very interesting that Indian TV is mentioning over and over Obama’s reaction, along with the PM’s of Great Britain and Pakistan. They aren’t mentioning much about Bush’s response. It seems the world considers Obama to be president already.
Obama pretty clearly has the moral authority of the US presidency, even if the legal authority will take a while. But it’s the moral authority that counts for stuff like this.
Bush lost his moral authority years ago, but the international snubs he’s getting now really drive it home.
Atanarjuat
Why all the hate, people?
A deplorable tragedy is unfolding in India, innocents have been killed or grievously injured, and panic rules the streets of Mumbai. But instead of showing your support for the victims of this latest wave of global terrorism, you instead use this as an excuse to rage against Bush and conservatives in general.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
I urge you, fellow Americans and those who visit Cole’s blog from abroad, to please put down the Haterade and do what you can to show your support for the Indians and westerners who’ve been viciously executed by the murderous thugs who have the temerity to think theirs is a noble cause (it’s not).
Continuing down this path of hatred will only prove that the terrorists have won. Please don’t let them; we’re all in this together, regardless of differing ideologies.
-Country First.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Excuse me? This has nothing to do with hate, it has to do with trying to figure out what the hell is going on. As a reporter on CNN just stated a little while ago, the people of India can’t afford to stay at these hotels. We’re being told the terrorists were searching for foreigners, WHY? For WHAT purpose?
Btw, Bush made us less safe in the world. THAT is why we discuss him.
Comrade Jake
@Atanarjuat:
And you guaranteed a McCain victory.
Happy Thanksgiving, cheesedick.
Atanarjuat
Ah, yes, my adorable stalker has reminded me that I’ve been remiss in not having said this in my previous post:
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone, and may God keep you and your loved ones safe on this day of peace and tranquility.
Hopefully, everyone will be back happier, filled with good family memories, and five pounds heavier! :-)
-Country First.
Ed Marshall
AQ has never taken hostages and never conducted any operation that left surviving perpetrators. This is something new.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Does AQ have an actual MO? Haven’t they used what were key differences in different areas? The attacks in Spain weren’t like the 9/11 attacks. How can you say they have an MO? Don’t they supposedly like to brainstorm new ideas and try them? I was under the impression some of what they pride themselves on in their attacks is the inventiveness of them. No? How often did we hear the term "mastermind" regarding their attacks?
Ed Marshall
These guys seem likely suspects.
Ed Marshall
I’m saying that when AQ does things they are always martyrdom operations. They kill themselves doing it. Truck bombs, suicide vests, suicide planes, suicide boats.
Ed Marshall
Well, Lashkar-e-Taiba says it’s not them. Scratch that.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Good question. Another one is: What are people talking about when they say "Al Qaida"? The impression we’re supposed to get is of some sort of giant multinational corporation with ObL as CEO. The reality is if you put all of the thugs, assorted nuts and poseurs who say they’re members of AQ (or have been identified as members of AQ by an ignorant president) in a room there would be a bloodbath.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Well Ed, I don’t know one way or another. I could be completely wrong, but, it seems to me that if Obama gets us out of Iraq, AQ is left to marginalized insignificance unless they do something to try to recreate interest in attacking them again. Am I wrong on that assessment? Bush was a boon to their cause, Obama signaled during his campaign that he won’t be a boon to their cause. Do you get what I’m saying?
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
I only see them as a loose knit group of Islamic idealogues who while perhaps not always seeing ObL as their leader, they certainly see him as a hero. The question is: is ObL involved?
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
From what I’m reading there, they are mostly interested in the struggle for Kashmir. If this was about Kashmir, why target American and British tourists?
This to me seems like an attempt to get Obama to take up the GWOT from Bush and keep it going, whether aQ is doing this or not. I see no other reason to target Americans and British citizens.
Ed Marshall
People I trust (and I’m not talking about Bob Woodward) keep saying AQ meaning Bin Ladin and his people in Pakistan are a couple months out from catching a dirt nap and that it doesn’t have anything to do with Obama vs. Bush….
Glen
For those who are interested in the facts as they unfold, via HuffingtonPost, a link to 24/7 Indian TV.
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/video/video_live.aspx?id=0
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Well, considering nobody knows who Decca Mujahadeen are, how can anyone make that assumption?
As I said, I’m not sure, I have no special knowledge, but, if Obama stops fighting the GWOT, all it does is marginalize the enemy of that fight (anyone who considers themselves an Islamic Jihadist involved in the fight against western influence).
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Thanks Glen for posting that. I had the link up for hours and then my connection got hosed and I didn’t bookmark the site, so when I tried to open it back up on the page I had sitting open, and it crashed, I was glad you shared the link and I could find it easily again.
Much appreciated. :)
Al Franken
Atanarjuat – Could you please guarantee a Norm Coleman victory too?
demimondian
@Atanarjuat: Why all the hate? Because it’s true that all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. And when you cross the line from inanity into bigotry, the rest of us have a moral duty to call that bigotry out.
You got far less than the hate your postings deserved. Seriously, dude, time to stop. This isn’t even vaguely amusing.
Atanarjuat
Yes, demimondian, because when you assume negative outcomes for all teen-aged mothers, that’s not bigotry — that’s just liberal common sense.
Happy Thanksgiving to you, too, my little stalking remora.
-Country First.
Jay C
@Ajuanatwat:
First of all, dickhead, your point (if there IS one) might have a little more weight behind it if you could show where there is/was anywhere on this thread a lack of "support for the victims" – and, unless somebody is spoofing you by posting under your handle, calls for comment-thread comity from someone who posted THIS gem:
presumably addressed to the BJ commentariat – ring a bit hollow. Like most of your trollish crap. FUAD.
passerby
comrad Stuck @95
Here’ how I see this kind of attack. Most discussions of this attack will include the word muslim, or some other religious group (it’s never The Christians, right? I wonder why that is…). The MSM swallows the narrative whole and, within hours of the event, dutifully forwards it for public consumption. No one has any specifics on the Who What or Why but, they’d have us believe that US/UK is the target, and that muslims did it and the only thing we know for sure is that it’s a terrifying bloodbath where lots of people died.
These days, when events like this happen, I assume that those who did this come from the same pool of operatives whose job it is to conduct various and sundry bomb detonations around the world. Merely agents provocatures. Blaming the amorphous al qaida has become their convenient default.
And Ed [email protected]
I think the psychological effects of this tragic event will not have the broad, desired effect. And perhaps, in the end, will enable those who did it to enact a power grab only at a local level. I agree that it a sign that "they" are losing.
FWIW, it is also possible that this was done to target one specific person. I don’t have trouble believing that the powers behind these attacks would crash a full 747 just to eliminate one man. This aspect never makes it into the mainstream narratives but it is not outside of the realm of possible actions for these heartless operatives.
To sum up:
Aside from the blood, destruction and trauma of this, we don’t know jack.
Bad people did this but old ways are not working anymore and they know they’re losing.
I’m sending calming thoughts and peaceful waves to the region.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Watching this coverage of the attack in Mumbai on India tv, I get the sense that we’re watching India go through the same ideological transformation that the US went through after 9/11.
I’ve heard "this changes everything" a couple of times. I’ve read messages scrolling across the crawler talking about how India has to avenge this attack. I’ve watched the psychological game the media played here with music and images being replayed for them now. Oh God, not again. I think some big media types who want to turn the little people into coddling idiots have stumbled on a formula and they’re using it again. Get ready to watch images of India’s citizens waving their flags on every car and in front of every home soon if they succeed.
demimondian
@Atanarjuat: Dude, your shtick isn’t funny, or even clever.
ATinNM
On Tuesday Terry Gross conducted an interview with the Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid which is well worth a listen. You can hear it at:
http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13&prgDate=11-25-2008
One interesting aspect of the interview was Mr. Rashid’s contention that the US is trying to get the Pakistani government to move troops stationed along the India/Pakistan border to the tribal areas and settled areas in and along the Afghanistan border. This border region is not under the control of Pakistani government but, rather, tribal and religious leaders allied to or are AQ, Taliban, & etc. Additionally, this region is being used as a staging/supply area for terrorists and guerrillas in their effort to push into and control the settled and agricultural areas of Pakistan. The Pakistani military has resisted moving troops as their assessment is India poses a greater threat than AQ, the Taliban, & etc. To get the Pakistan military to redeploy the Indian military has to redeploy their military away from the Pakistan/India border.
The Indian government, intelligence agencies, and military are convinced certain factions within the Pakistani intelligence service(s) support and endorse guerrilla and terrorist groups who are conducting attacks in India — Kashmir, among other places. I leave it to others to discuss and decide the validity of this conclusion; that is what they think; that is what they base Indian military policy upon.
Naturally, AQ, et.al, would just as soon keep the Pakistani military along the Indian border, far away from their base in the tribal region. To achieve this they need to keep Indian soldiers where they are, constituting a threat to Pakistan, which they can do by conducting terrorist attacks within India.
Now, I am NOT asserting the above is the reason for the attack. I am merely suggesting it as A possible reason. Tho’ it is one I find more compelling than those previously given. (I can be convinced otherwise.) I note attacking foreigners assures media coverage in those foreign lands which may be a secondary goal. (?) After all, it’s kinda silly to conduct a Terrorist campaign if nobody knows about it! :-)
Ed Marshall
That’s not how they roll in India, they won’t have flags they will have Molotov cocktails and they will burn down the Muslim neighborhoods.
Joey Maloney
Just as a point of interest: aside from the hotels and the lying-in hospital, another target was the Mumbai Chabad House. One of the rabbi’s children is safe; the rabbi and the rest of his family are still in the building and their status is unknown.
That doesn’t necessarily mean the attackers are Islamists. Israelis are identifiable as westerners, India’s a big tourist destination for them, and many will find their way to the Chabad House.
protected static
@CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII: Is ObL involved? Probably not directly, though he may be a source of inspiration and/or object of devotion. In December 2006, you could still find ObL t-shirts for sale in parts of Kerala, for instance… You wouldn’t find them anywhere near the touristy areas, and I didn’t see anyone actually wearing one, but they were there.
passerby
[email protected]
Good point. And thanks for the report on the Gross interview. It brings the larger picture into focus by offering possible strategies (purpose) behind terrorism though in doing so, raises more questions about what the US’s goal is.
Why isn’t the Bush administration flooding those countries with diplomats? instead of employing what amounts to violent manipulations in order to achieve… cooperation? Achieve…what?
dr. luba
@CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:
I am second to no one in having a secret desire to see the rich get their due. The roots of the tree of liberty need to be refreshed occasionally not only with the blood of tyrants, but also with that of aristocrats and CEOs. But I digress….
When I was in Bombay many years ago, I visited the Taj hotel to have a look around, and my traveling companions had a very nice dinner there (I was off visiting Indian friends that night). We were none of us rich–they were still students then, and I was just out of school. It was an affordable luxury, one nice night on the town.
We stayed in cheap accommodations elsewhere, but we were traveling independently, which not that many American visitors to India do. A large percentage of them (non-Indian ancestry American citizens) come on tours, and stay where the tour books them. If it’s a nice tour, they may be put up at the Taj or Oberoi–although expensive for India, a good deal compared to, say, NYC.
These terrorists, whoever they were, seem to have been targeting foreigners somewhat, but that would not explain their attacks on hospitals and the train station. It was a multi-pronged attack on the Indian government–scaring off foreigners, terrorizing the local population, and shutting down the financial heart of the country.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
You didn’t follow my argument from the beginning, and I should apologize because I split it into multiple parts (you didn’t know that, not your fault). I agree that some Americans who are not rich could afford it (from what I’m hearing via the media, typical Indians cannot afford it) but… on Thanksgiving week (one day before Thanksgiving), how many of those not so rich Americans are going to be in Mumbai instead of eating turkey and stuffing with their families?
I agree with you, I just don’t agree those typical Americans would be there at this time of year.
dr. luba
@passerby:
This is one of the few instances where the Christians aren’t likely to be causing trouble. Xstians are a fairly small minority in India (except in the SOuth, where Christianity is an indigenous religion and common) and are generally well-behaved. They have violence done to them by Hindu extremists (when they’re not terrorizing Muslins) quite a bit in the North, so try to keep a low profile.
Mind you, if they had a greater plurality of the population, I have no doubt they’d be mixing it up with everyone else.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Well, it sounds like either they’re trying to kill too many birds with one stone, or they planned poorly. They are targeting foreigners but they aren’t. They are killing but they aren’t. They are going into five star hotels, and they are going into the place where less affluent people would be. So are they really against Western Influence or are they Kashmir fighters or are they just killers out for kicks? This is the part that is different, and perhaps they’re just crazy. If they had a true ideological stance, they’d stick to one thing and do it well.
Thanks, you gave me an argument that makes me believe aQ may not be involved, I appreciate that. :)
ATinNM
passerby @ 151
Thank you & you’re welcome. ;-)
Beats my pair of Aces. Methinks the same intelligence, wisdom, and competence the Bush administration has shown in domestic and military affairs is mirrored in US Foreign Policy.
The last time things hotted-up between Pakistan and India — along with persistent rumors nuclear weapons were released to the theater commanders — Bush sent Powell to calm the situation on the India side and the PRC talked to Pakistan. This Balance of Power stuff can and will work … until it doesn’t. See: World War I, Start of. Now with Bush lamer than the lamest duck and Obama unable to do anything overtly …. things be interesting, don’t know who they can send that will have creditability.
In the meantime, CNN is reporting:
And we go again …
Cain
@CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:
I would be impressed if that happened. India’s citizens have never really identified themselves uniformly like that except in sports or something. Each state is so culturally different than the other that I’m some times surprised that they can keep it all together like that.
cain
Cain
@Ed Marshall:
That is a more likely scenario. Although Bombay has so far resisted such things. Only in the tribal areas up in the north do we see that kind of Hindu/Muslim violence. But I consider a lot of those places utterly crazy.
cain
Cain
@protected static:
Wow.. I wouldn’t believe that of Kerela. I would think Hyderbad or something would be likely to sell T-shirts like that.
cain
passerby
Interesting. What PM Manmohan seems to be doing here is conflating the attack at the hotel as an attack aimed at the regions finances. Hmm…
If the bombers wanted to attack or grind down the financial activities of the region, wouldn’t they have selected a more direct target? I can imagine that the havoc is disruptive, but not enough to stop the markets there…unless the local Govt. enforces some kind of city-wide lockdown. Just wondering.
Brachiator
@CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:
You know, this sounds much like the boneheaded populism of Sarah Palin. What, exactly, is your point in trying to determine whether or not the people who stay in 5 star hotels are "regular Joe’s," "typical Americans" or even "real Americans?" Are you implying that there is some inverse relationship between moral worth and the amount of money that an American has in his or her pocket?
Another knowledgeable poster has noted that expats in the region this time of year. And in other posts here you clearly understand that you are aware of news reports that the attackers asked whether Westerners were American or British — but never whether they were rich or poor.
When I travelled in this region in December, it was as part of a tour group that included a retired couple, a middle aged woman administator who had been a shrewd investor, a Chinese studies professor, and a couple whose children had saved up to give their parents a "trip of a lifetime." Not a plutocrat in the bunch. Our group intersected with a group of Americans who were of the Bahá’í faith, visiting sites that were important to the various faiths in India and Nepal. This group also stayed in 4 and 5 star hotels.
And of course, the hotel was not the only target. Railway stations are not the main stopping place of the rich and famous.
I’m sure that this was just one of many different sentiments expressed. In one of the last major attacks in India, a common sentiment expressed was that the terrorists could never win because Indians would never let mindless fear and the desire for revenge to take hold.
The Bush Administration could never learn that the rest of the world was not simply sitting back, waiting for instruction from the White House. It will be interesting to see if the Obama Administration understands that while India and Pakistan might appreciate the assistance of partners, neither country is depending on the United States to ride to the rescue with a horde of diplomats.
Cain
@passerby:
It might be to effect foreign investors. If the country is perceived to be unstable, the markets could react to that and foreign money in addition to the global financial crises we’re having might cause precipitous problems in India’s financial health. I’m reaching of course, but certainly influencing outside perception might be a factor.
cain
Cain
BTW there is more information at crooksandliars about the cause. It’s some indigenous group of muslims who are upset at hindu supremacist attitude by the Mumbai police. HIndu supremacists are a bad problem and as the crooks and liars article notes, the BJP and Shiv Sena are horribly hindu centric.
The thing to worry now is a backlash by Hindus across the countries against Muslims whipped on by these politicians. Creating another wave of hatred and violence. In India, you can have a mob form within minutes and it’ll start going after anybody that gets in their path.
cain
Brachiator
@Cain:
I’m not sure that this really makes sense. Police facilities were not targeted.
People often look for, or manufacture, some rational grievance to explain terrorist attacks. But often, even if the "explanation" makes sense to the terrorists, it is nonsensical to everyone else.
kill the rich
its a good thing.
protected static
@Cain: Arsed if I know exactly where we were when I saw those shirts, but we were in a relatively upscale mall in one of Thrissur’s market districts. I was pretty surprised by them, but I suspect they may have been more about anti-American sentiment than actual support of AQ.
Cain
@protected static:
Likely, as U.S. being a capitalistic country, and Kerela the bastion of the communist party. Still in bad taste though. Even Iran was showing solidarity with us on 9-11.
cain
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Well Brachiator, considering I grew up in a moneyed family and saw the things I saw, while I don’t believe ALL wealthy people are like that, my answer is still a resounding yes.
The question is: what is wealthy? When someone becomes rich enough that they no longer care about those who earn beneath them (a characterization my family portrayed) then YES, I do think there is an inverse relationship between moral worth and the amount of money in one’s pocket.
By the way, if you want to deride me for feeling that way, you’ll have to deride Jesus too. He stated it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven (and yes, I know the eye of a needle was one of the slim doors to the gates of the city in Jerusalem and not the hole of that instrument we sew with).
Another thing: part of the reason why I stated that it may be the more wealthy who were staying in those hotels is because, quite frankly, the media was pushing that line as well. I’ve never been to India, I’ve never stayed in the Taj Mahal hotel. I know what some snobby rich people are like after being exposed to them for years, and taking the info I got on tv about the hotel’s clientele, I made a guess. Perhaps I’m wrong, and if I am, I will fully admit it.
passerby
@cain126
Since there’s little reliable information available around world events (or US events for that matter), speculation is pretty much all we have. I enjoy having a discussion that includes different angles and what-ifs.
There are international politcal machinations that operate thru a spider web of obscure alliances that are designed to maintain power, control resources, and siphon money for the good old boys. Wheels within wheels.
It’s a connect the dots game for me so you’ll often find me "reaching", too. The media are mouthpieces that put the narrative out there. It’s amazing to me that the majority of people are quick to believe what’s on TV or in print as gospel.
There’s seems to be little attempt to try to apply some basic logic and dig for some rationale or background surrounding world events and instead, just swallow it whole.
As an example, on this thread a number of commenters have direct experience regarding the region and culture of India. Their comments and musings based on that experience are valuable in getting the larger picture. It’s the type of info that doesn’t make its way into most TV reports.
passerby
p.s.: That’s why I like to come here to BJ. The diversity of experience and expertise of the commenters is a cornucopia of perspective that’s not available in other places. Law, military, research, business, food, all here. A one-stop shop.
I usually scroll past the flame wars and pissing matches*, mining for signs of intelligent life. Glad about today’s bannings, however. No one likes an inane troll.
[* unless it’s giant FUCK YOU ! contest which is always fun.]
So thank you John Cole.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
Well, I admit I fell for this, but after witnessing the following conversation via a CNN anchor and one of the reporters, it didn’t seem all that incredible:
(paraphrased but probably quite accurate)
Anchor: "Yes, I remember when we stayed at the Taj Mahal and the security was so tight, even just to get into the parking lot…"
Reporter (later): "and as you know from when we were here, the people who stay in the Taj Mahal are usually wealthy foreigners, the people in India certainly can’t afford to stay in that hotel"
Seemed pretty credible to me, I guess this was all just a game?
passerby
@ Circvs
I don’t have cable so I’m not following this on TV, but I’m curious. Did they put those facts into any context? for example, why was security so tight at the Taj Mahal when they visited?
I’ve given up watching local and national news (and cable) because they’ll report on something without the Who, Where, How and When. They just give the What and it’s usually bad news. They don’t mind presenting opinions (agenda) on those shows either though I’m sure the reporters in that segment you referenced were not lying. Discernment.
CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII
They were discussing how the gunmen could have gotten into the Taj Mahal when security was so tight while they were there. They made it sound like the heightened security was a normal occurrence.
narayank
Indian PoV
Yes, there are about a gazillion people in India with grouches against against some one but these attacks are different.
The first group any non muslim in India would think of blaming would be homegrown "Muslim Terrorists". Muslims in India have a number of reasons to be pissed off. Hindus view them with suspicion – for a number of reasons – the partition violence (where the displaced Hindus behaved as badly if not worse than the displaced muslims), a history of muslim rule prior to the Brits, later anger at muslim affluence through Gulf money (especially in the south), resentment at why muslims get an out on Indian law – there was a case called the Shah Bano case that was demonstrative.
Muslims have certainly been involved in most of spectacular non mob acts of violence in India, but up till now, its been small groups of angry youth cobbling together bombs and exploding them where the damage is maximum – crowded market places, stations and other places.
This is different. This is a bloody commando style operation – so these kids (and most of the killers are kids)could not have planned and executed this without training.
Yeah India always blames Pakistan for anything that happens, even if it is something orchestrated internally – with or without the blessing of India’s security services. But this time, I believe that there is an element of truth there. There is a lot of hate at India’s perceived economic growth and political clout within sections of Pakistan, especially since India puts itself in another category altogether – with countries like China and Russia – and Pakistan does not figure in that circle.
Like most Indians, I would probably blame the combination of ISI meddling and Muslim angst for this. While Americans and British were targeted, the main victim would be India’s rep as a place for doing business…
dr. luba
@CIRCVS MAXIMVS MMVIII:
Actually, no, it wasn’t. That interpretation of the phrase came about fairly recently (18th or 19th century) as a sop to the rich. Especially as the prosperity gospel (early version) was becoming more popular–the belief that those who prosper are the chosen of God.
When the rich guy is paying your salary, you (as the preacher) don’t want to piss him off.
Interestingly, the "eye of the needle" is one of the favorite homilies in Indian churches. Indian friends have noted that this is a topic rarely brought up in American churches, but often in theirs. Different "audiences." As Indian Christians (especially newer converts) often come from a poorer demographic, this emphasis can be understood.
Cain
@narayank:
Sadly, if Pakistanis are jealous of Indian wealth they have no one to blame but themselves in that regard. They live in a fertile region of the Indus valley and in fact can be just as successful. Even though India seems to be taking two steps back and one step forward they are at least going forward. They need to stop getting involved in cold wars wasting their money on weapons. They can be just as great, but the Kashmir issue is becoming a cancer to them. Having Kashmir will do nothing for them IMHO because their institutionally broken.
Pakistan has fundamentalists that keep the country back. It constantly swaps from Democracy to Military Rule and back again. They need to decide as a nation where they want to be and go in that direction.
I realize that Pakistan is jealous, and I suppose I would be too. It’s not like their fundamentally different from us. 60 years ago Indians, Pakistanis, and Bangaldeshians were all one people. But stability and good education is the root of India’s success, and Pakistan must follow suit.
cain
rachel
No, they’re going back.