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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War / Turn Me On, Dead Man

Turn Me On, Dead Man

by John Cole|  January 1, 200912:12 pm| 243 Comments

This post is in: War

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News from Gaza:

Israel on Thursday killed a senior Hamas political leader in an air strike in the Gaza Strip, the first such attack in its six-day-old offensive.

The air strike killed Nizar Rayyan along with nine other people, including his wife and three children, Hamas said. Another 25 people were wounded. Security sources told Ynet that the house was also used as an arms cache, a communications headquarters and concealed a tunnel’s opening.

Israeli military sources confirmed that Rayyan, who was considered the Hamas leadership’s liaison with the group’s military wing, was killed in an attack on his north Gaza home.

Prior to striking Rayyan’s house the IDF tried to warn his family about the imminent attack and urged them to evacuate the place, but they refused to do so.

Now, it goes without saying (assuming these reports are accurate) that Rayyan, as a man who advocated further suicide bombings against Israel, was a murderous cretin, and, as suspected, the usual suspects are thrilled. A few years ago, I probably would have joined them.

Now, however, my only thought is I wonder what the name of the guy they will kill in a few years will be, because it goes without saying Rayyan will be replaced, and probably with someone just as angry and just as hateful and radicalized by the death of his friends/family/lover, killed in this week’s raids (folks who we here in the States and in Israel will only obliquely reference as “collateral damage”).

Number Nine. Number Nine. Number Nine.

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243Comments

  1. 1.

    Kevin

    January 1, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    Good job killing him at home where his wife and 3 kids are…I’m sure they couldn’t have waited until he was alone or anything. I’m sure the pictures of the dead kids are going to go over so well in the Arab world…

  2. 2.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    In my darker moments, I wish that someone would have the power to simply tell everyone in that area that they’ve got 90 days to prove they can either live together peacefully or to get out of the area, because if they can’t do the former, then the place is being turned to glass. So much of the time, the leadership of both sides here sound like petulant children in the back seat of a car, each claiming that the other is on their side , or that one is being touched by the other, or that one has the other’s toy and won’t give it back. And I’m ready for the response to be "if you won’t play nice, I’ll take the toy and break it so no one gets to have it."

  3. 3.

    Lavocat

    January 1, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    The next man’s name is Legion.

    And, yes, they always will be.

    It’s just a game of perennial death.

  4. 4.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    It’s interesting. When I worked at the college library there was a Palestinian named Amin who also worked there. One saturday during summer session we were working together alone at the desk.

    This woman came up to request some materials. I handed her the microfilm and went back to my desk. Amin muttered under his breath "She’s a Jew." It was said with such hatred it shocked me.

    My only response was "So what?"

    It still is. This woman wasn’t from Israel, she was from New York. I had a passing acquaintance with her, as she was friends of friends of mine and I’d seen her before.

    But to Amin, that wasn’t enough. She was a Jew and he hated all of them.

    That was over 20 years ago.

    There is nothing we can do from the outside. We just have to let them kill each other until they’ve had enough. Calls for cease fire and such are irresponsible.

  5. 5.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    I wish that someone would have the power to simply tell everyone in that area

    I know you’re an atheist, but that’s a pretty compelling argument for divine intervention. It seems pretty unlikely that people have the capacity to resolve the mess over there.

    We just have to let them kill each other until they’ve had enough.

    And that’s pretty much tantamount to genocide, because neither side will ever have enough until the other side is wiped out.

  6. 6.

    The Moar You Know

    January 1, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    Now, however, my only thought is I wonder what the name of the guy they will kill in a few years will be.

    Yup. My first thought on reading this. My second was "wow, John’s honest enough to admit that a few years back, he would have heard about this guy getting his just desserts and thought ‘awesome, problem solved’" Takes a lot of maturity to realize that killing people doesn’t solve systemic problems. If you do believe that killing the right guy fixes everything, it seems, the party of choice is the Republican party – they seem to have no clue that shooting your way out of a situation doesn’t work.

    I blame TV. Easy answers and everything is solved in a half-hour.

    My third, of course, is how long you’ll stay a Dem. I vote that way as it is the lesser of two evils at this juncture in history – but realize it won’t always be that way.

  7. 7.

    alamacTHC

    January 1, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    "Sit you down, Father, and rest you."

  8. 8.

    Reverend Dennis

    January 1, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    February 10th, 2009, is election day in Israel. It’s no coincidence that the attacks on Gaza are occurring now. Israeli politicians can always count on Palestinian politicians to do something stupid enough to justify some vote-getting violence. And Palestinian politicians can always count on the Israelis for the same.

  9. 9.

    burnspbesq

    January 1, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    I’m Irish, and I used to think that if there can be peace and reconciliation in Ulster, there can be peace and reconciliation in Palestine.

    I’m no longer that naive. There is no Gerry Adams in Palestine, and there is no Tony Blair in the Israeli government.

    I don’t know how this ends short of Israel exterminating the Palestinian people.

    And this is who we choose to pal around with?

  10. 10.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    @Reverend Dennis: You sound like B.O.B. with his "dark of the moon" comments.

    Sadly, unlike him, you’re *right*.

  11. 11.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    I blame TV. Easy answers and everything is solved in a half-hour.

    You need to distill your line of thinking down one step further to the true root of the problem: Parents.

    Parents let their children grow up watching TV. They let them believe the things they see are a reflection of reality. They let them go to school and memorize the answers to questions to pass the test without understanding the question or the answer.

    If you want to place blame, then blame the parents that are raising all these children to lack critical thinking and to believe in easy answers to difficult questions. Because that’s where all the adults come from.

  12. 12.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    January 1, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    Reminds of the U.S. killing the #3 guy in AQ with the same effect. It gives the "usual suspects" something to get all lathered up about.

  13. 13.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    @burnspbesq: Seriously? Look at the alternatives.

    Hamas provides an effective government in a troubled region — but its policies (overt discrimination against women and religious minorities, for instance, not to mention Sharia) are nauseating. We could and should negotiate with them, just as we did before Bush took office, but we shouldn’t pretend that they are a government to which we want to provide any support. Fatah is even worse — it doesn’t even provide a government worthy of the name.

    Culturally, socially, and technically, by contrast, Israel is naturally an ally — a genuine Western democracy with a transparent and secular liberal government. We could and should act aggressively to try to change their foreign policy and their policies towards Arab Israelis, just as we did prior to the Bush era. We shouldn’t lie about whether they’re a country with which we can comfortably get along in other important ways.

    At the end of the day, that’s why Israel is an ally, for exactly the same reasons that Japan and Western Europe are well established allies. All of them have cultures much like ours, with similar aspirations and goals. If each of them has a history of racism, so do we. If they have a history of military adventurism, so do we. If they are imperfect, so are we.

  14. 14.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    @John S.:

    I know you’re an atheist, but that’s a pretty compelling argument for divine intervention. It seems pretty unlikely that people have the capacity to resolve the mess over there.

    Oh, people have the capacity to resolve it, and it doesn’t take divine intervention. When it comes to this sort of conflict, there are solutions–that’s not to say that the people involved will accept them, but they do exist, and belief in a mythical God is rather more of the problem than the solution when it comes to this sort of thing.

  15. 15.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    @Incertus: If anything, depending upon God to intervene takes away the pressure on us as humans to do the work ourselves.

    At the end of the day, who’s in control here, anyway? If He steps in, it will be to help us make better decisions, not to solve our problems for us. We’re in charge here — we get to sleep in the bed we, alone, made.

  16. 16.

    whatsleft

    January 1, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    John S.

    They let them go to school and memorize the answers to questions to pass the test without understanding the question or the answer.

    Speaking as a teacher, I’m very sorry your children go to such an inferior school. I assure you that most schools do teach using an enquiry method and emphasize critical thinking skills, knowing that teaching a child to be a lifelong learner is the true goal of education.

  17. 17.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    I don’t know how this ends short of Israel exterminating the Palestinian people.

    That much seems certain and the Israeli government doesn’t even really try to hide this anymore. I found it particularly revealing last year when an IDF minister said the Palestinians were going to bring shoah upon themselves – delivered by Israel.

    The Hebrew word shoah means ‘big disaster’. It’s a term rarely used within Israel unless specifically referring to the Nazi genocide.

  18. 18.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    @demimondian:

    Culturally, socially, and technically, by contrast, Israel is naturally an ally—a genuine Western democracy with a transparent and secular liberal government.

    Democratic? Mostly, although non-Jews don’t have much in the way of representation, and certainly not in any proportional way.

    Secular? No way. Christian fundies in this country have wet dreams about having the kind of power that the religious have in Israel.

  19. 19.

    El Cid

    January 1, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    This is totally awesome because when the Israelis successfully target and kill some Palestinian militant it totally brings them peace and love and security. This will sure teach those gosh darn Palestinians a lesson and now the peace process is sure to ramp up as soon as those people do everything they need to do to make Israeli hawks feel comfortable.

  20. 20.

    Tony J

    January 1, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    This slaughterhouse merry-go-round isn’t going to stop until there’s a Palestinian state next door to Israel, and both countries are run by governments willing and able to crack down on their own extremists.

    That’s always been the only long-term solution, but it’s also been the hardest to bring about because it requires a long-term commitment from an outside power willing to put bodies on the borders and keep them there, while also spending billions on reconstruction and economic stimulus.

    People can stop killing each other, but only when the option of not killing each other is made more attractive than the alternative. Short of that vital external commitment, it’s just going to keep on getting worse and worse until someone ends it all with an act of nuclear despair.

    Happy New Year.

  21. 21.

    Garrigus Carraig

    January 1, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    @demimondian:

    At the end of the day, that’s why Israel is an ally

    Hahaha. Ha. Or maybe it’s more complicated than that. Maybe Israel is an ally because the alliance seemed to make sense during the Cold War. Or because of their very effective lobbying.

    Wait. Is "ally" the right word? Because they don’t seem to be able to stop Spying On Us.

  22. 22.

    J.

    January 1, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    As Golda Meir is alleged to have said and others have said (rightly) since, "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us [i.e., Jews/Israelis]."

  23. 23.

    Great job IDF!

    January 1, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Great!! Thank you Israel for taking this garbage away from our society!

    This scumbag sent his own SON to do a suicide bombing in 2001. Completely sick

  24. 24.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    @whatsleft:

    My children do not go to an inferior school yet, though the odds are high since we live in Florida. But I will not abrogate my role in educating my children as a parent and leave it entirely up to the school system.

    You can assure me all you want – as a teacher – that schools teach critical thinking and aim to make students lifelong learners, but I see very little evidence of it. I didn’t see evidence of it when I was in school, I don’t see evidence of it with my numerous nieces and nephews and I don’t see evidence of it in the high school kids that work for my wife or the college graduates I have hired over the years.

    I wish that your assessment of the state of our educational system were accurate, though. I really do.

    @Incertus:

    Well, you may be right about the capacity to resolve the crisis, but I think you are at a disadvantage to provide ANY empirical evidence that people have harnessed that capacity in any meaningful way to resolve the dispute between Israel and Palestine. In a similar vein, solutions that look good on paper but don’t hold up in practice aren’t very practical solutions, now are they?

    But I have to disagree that God is the problem. God is not responsible for the ideological clash that has erupted – that is caused by religion, which is purely an invention of mankind.

    @demimondian:

    We are in charge here for the time being (the roaches may take over if we keep heading down the path we’re on) – no two ways about that. I’m not suggesting that we cede our responsibilities to God and just do whatever the fuck we want because none of it matters anyway. That is the mindset of a Christianist, and I disagree with it wholeheartedly.

    God already empowered us with the ability to make better decisions, people just choose to ignore it. That’s the nature of free will. But like you said, if God intervenes it will not be to solve all our problems but to put us back on the right track and maybe smack a little common sense back into us so we can live in peace and harmony the way we were originally intended to.

    That’s my idea of divine intervention. I realize that isn’t boilerplate, so I just wanted to clarify.

  25. 25.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    I followed the Irish peace process. A lot of things happened. I don’t know what’s causal and what’s not. or what drove what. I didn’t have a "side": I just read all over the board.
    1. The British went back to rule of law, post-initial lunatic approach to Irish terrorists, because initial lunatic approach didn’t work.
    2. There was a grass roots peace movement. Women ran it. That’s where it started. Those regular people got the attention of leaders, not the other way around.
    3. The economy changed. It got better, and Catholics made some money, and (literally) moved into formerly Protestant areas.
    4. The Church lost clout, with the people. "Why" is a book all by itself, and the most controversial and taboo part, but in my estimation that was part of it.

  26. 26.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    @John S.: Didn’t say God was the problem–I specifically said "belief in a mythical God." Now you can parse out the difference between religion and what I said if you want–I happen to think the difference is so small as to be immaterial–but if you’re going to "have to disagree," you could at least get what I’m saying correct.

  27. 27.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    @J.:

    That works both ways. If Israel really wanted peace, it could have it. It has decided not to, especially when extermination is such a push button operation for them.

    I don’t think any problem gets fixed until you own your part of it. Neither Israel nor Palestine are willing to do that.

    Hell of a way to celebrate the new year, really. Cheering on the need to kill wives and children.

  28. 28.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    @Garrigus Carraig: Do you honestly believe that the Japanese and the Europeans — hell, the Canadians — don’t spy on us?

    No, actually, it’s just the JOOS who spy on us, amirite?

  29. 29.

    Brick Oven Bill

    January 1, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    I oblige you demimondian.

    But I do not understand people who support both pluralism and Islam. In any case, the dark of the moon begins on January 6th, five days from now. It is recommended to keep your gas tank full, just in case. The Strait of Hormuz is only 22 miles wide.

    In any case, this is a very good essay.

    There was a merchant in Baghdad who went to the market with his servant. There they saw Death, who stared at the servant in what seemed a threatening way. Later the servant said "Master, lend me a horse. I shall ride to Samara, and there Death will not find me". The merchant did so, then returned to the market, where he again saw Death, whom he approached, and asked why he had stared at his servant in such a threatening way. Death responded, "I wasn’t threatening him. I was just very surprised to see him here in Baghdad, since I have an appointment with him in Samara later this afternoon."

  30. 30.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    @J.: Please. Let’s not act like Israel is always on the side of the angels here. That’s the kind of thinking that keeps the people in the region from even beginning to talk about solutions, much less acting on them.

  31. 31.

    whatsleft

    January 1, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    @John S.: So sorry you have such a dismal view of education in our state. Being a several-generation Floridian myself, and a product of Florida public schools, I did not find this a barrier to easily competing with top scholars from around the country. The same for my high-school chums who received scholarships to numerous elite colleges and universities. As with any educational system, there are good teachers and poor teachers.

    However, I will grant you that I find the educational hierarchy in North Florida sadly inferior to that in South Florida.

  32. 32.

    burnspbesq

    January 1, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    @demimondian:

    That’s a great answer … to some question other than the question I actually posed.

    The current policy of the Israeli government, where Gaza is concerned, is indistinguishable from genocide. I would like to think that the United States would stand in opposition to genocide, no matter who’s doing it. I would also like to think that Jews who haven’t lost their moral compass would be a bit uncomfortable saying "never again, unless it’s us doing it to somebody else."

    Feel free to try again.

  33. 33.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    @Incertus: Um, you might want to actually look at the number of Arabs in the Knesset, ‘Cert. (I’ll save you the search.) It’s probably larger than you think. (Remember that

  34. 34.

    aimai

    January 1, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    Well, just for kicks, I’ve got to agree that florida’s educational system sucks–going by the kid from florida I taught at Yale. She was hands down the stupidest, least educated, person you could ever meet. And worst of all–she had no idea. This had nothing to do with public vs. private education, in my opinion, and everything to do with the massive anti intellectualism of her right wing family. But they must have been in the majority, socially speaking, because she had no fucking idea that there was anything outside of her own experience.

    aimai

  35. 35.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    @burnspbesq: Genocide is a word that gets tossed around pretty casually these days because the definition has been loosened up. I mean, the word comes from the roots that mean "the killing of a tribe," which hints at extermination. Israel, which deserves massive criticism for its Palestinian policy in my opinion, is not currently trying to kill off the Palestinians as an ethnic group. You’d be hard-pressed to even make a case for this as ethnic cleansing, and genocide, to my mind, is more extreme than that. Hyperbole isn’t helpful in this discussion, no matter which side you support.

  36. 36.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    @Incertus: And, as to the power of the religious parties have in Israel…um, yeah, listen. Our fundies have more power than Shas, and that’s without Israel’s odd proportional representation system. Parties in power throughout Europe are all Christian. Seriously, go count the number of Muslim MPs in Britain, the truly most egalitarian European state.

    More than that, the majority of Israeli Jews are not observant. Israel is, increasingly, a Jewish state in the same sense that the United States is a "Christian" state — there’s a set of shared cultural events that most people participate in, exclusive of another set of shared religious rituals upon which those cultural events are based, and in which most people *don’t* participate.

  37. 37.

    Andrew

    January 1, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    This is totally awesome because when the Israelis successfully target and kill some Palestinian militant it totally brings them peace and love and security. This will sure teach those gosh darn Palestinians a lesson and now the peace process is sure to ramp up as soon as those people do everything they need to do to make Israeli hawks feel comfortable.

    The thing is, it actually sort of does do what you’re snarking about. It keeps Hamas from really doing anything effective, and Israeli society is fairly secure and prosperous, at least by comparison to its neighbors’. The air war is not optimal for the Israelis, but it’s much, much worse for the Palestinians. Additionally, all of the risks that exist for Israel exist regardless of this latest war, so they’re really not losing much of anything.

    The current policy of the Israeli government, where Gaza is concerned, is indistinguishable from genocide.

    You’re really not adding anything to the discussion besides stupid.

  38. 38.

    srv

    January 1, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    There is nothing we can do from the outside.

    You’re right. Amin’s enemy wasn’t her. It was you. You’re the one paying for those bombs.

  39. 39.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    @Incertus:
    Cutting off food and water doesn’t count as extermination? I agree the word does get bandied about, and I think that many Israelis don’t see it that way *or* even want it that way.

    However, it seems the current actions of this Israeli government is that of slow death to Palestinians. I’m sure the Likkud factions wouldn’t mind if the Palestinians moved to Jordan, as Ariel Sharon said, but removing a "tribe" is very much ethnic cleansing, isn’t it?

  40. 40.

    Tony J

    January 1, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    No, actually, it’s just the JOOS who spy on us, amirite?

    You know, right up until you outed him as an anti-semite, I was in danger of thinking Garrigus Carraig was was just making the point that Israel’s status as ‘America’s number one ally that cannot be questioned, only supported’, might have more complicated roots than it just being another westernised democracy.

    Glad you cleared that up.

  41. 41.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    @demimondian: So they’re ten percent of the Knesset and twenty percent of the population. Yeah, a little larger than I expected, but not much. Still not very secular.

    Look, I know that it’s not all that cut and dried when it comes to the tension between church and state in Israel, but the orthodox elements have a lot of de facto power in their neighborhoods, and the state government hasn’t been willing to challenge them until recently. Throw in things like religious courts dealing with issues of marriage and family matters and I think that my statement about the county not being particularly secular is an accurate one.

  42. 42.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    @demimondian: Damnition and perdation. I included a less than sign in that comment.

    Less than 10 per cent of the body of Israeli citizens is Arab, as more than half of all Israeli Arabs are non-citizens by virtue of not having applied for the citizenship papers for to which they are entitled. The membership in the Knesset is controlled by a unique proportional system, which is why there are so many members from Shas…and so few Arabs.

    Personally, I’d like to see a citizenship drive among Arab residents of East Jerusalem and other under-represented groups. It would have a remarkable effect on Israeli politics.

  43. 43.

    whatsleft

    January 1, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    aimai: There is no doubt, teh stupid, it burns.

  44. 44.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    @Andrew:

    You’re really not adding anything to the discussion besides stupid.

    Well, that was value. Cutting off Food, Water, and humanitarian aid to a specific group of people sure sounds llike ethnic cleansing. Yeah, its not running around with machetes — this is more…sophisticated. I’m sure the William Kristols of the world will applaud the brilliance and realpolitik of it all.

    Denying rights to a group of people based on their heritage is bigotry, and trying to get people to leave an area through intimidation and force is done by both sides. Just one has a few more resources at the moment.

    We already know what they are. Now we’re haggling the price.

  45. 45.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    @Tony J: You should read this diary. Until he started using dog-whistles, I might have agreed with you. Unfortunately, he chose to start invoking the "JOOS ARE UNTRUSTWORTHY" meme — a classic dog-whistle.

  46. 46.

    burnspbesq

    January 1, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    @Incertus:

    Are you actually claiming that the practical effect of Israeli policy toward Gaza, carried to its logical conclusion, is anything other that extermination? Don’t see how you get there.

    Israel: we will continue to indiscriminately kill Gazans, regardless of whether they are actually connected to the rocket attacks on Israeli territory, until the rocket attacks stop.

    Hamas: As long as one of us lives, we will continue to attack.

    How does that end?

  47. 47.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    January 1, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Regardless of yer bitchin’ dog hearing abilities, Demimondian, our other allies aren’t caught spying on us and Garrigus’ point stands.

    Edit: altho I still harbor deep distrust of the Canadians. Prolly a holdover from the War of 1812 where they killed one of my forebears.

  48. 48.

    joeyess

    January 1, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Number Nine. Number Nine. Number Nine.

    Nicely played Beatles reference.

  49. 49.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    @Incertus:

    You are mistaken if you think I don’t get what you are saying. It isn’t that God is the problem for you as much as the fact that people believe in God. That’s some serious parsing for a guy begrudging my desire to ‘parse’ the difference between God and religion.

    Incidentally, your view comes across like something the NRA would say…God isn’t the problem, people believing in God is the problem!


    @whatsleft:

    I didn’t say the substandard school system here is a barrier to competing nationally – motivated and gifted students will thrive regardless of the flaws inherent in the schools they come out of. And I’m not saying that such students are in short supply here in Florida – they are simply NOT the majority. Here or anywhere.

    But you are 100% correct about the pivotal roles teachers play, and I frankly wish the good ones were also in the majority. Too bad you’re in N. Florida, because despite the hierarchical advantages you give us here in S. Florida, we could use more passionate and optimistic teachers like you.

  50. 50.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead: If you think that they haven’t, you aren’t paying much attention. Here, let me help you.

  51. 51.

    Libby Spencer

    January 1, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    I hate what’s going in Gaza. I’ve been hating this whole situation for way too many years. Violence begets violence and it never ends in anything but the death of too many innocents. I wish they would all stop fighting and killing each other.

    That is all.

  52. 52.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    @joeyess: Personally, I wanted to see a reference to "Number Six".

  53. 53.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Israel, which deserves massive criticism for its Palestinian policy in my opinion, is not currently trying to kill off the Palestinians as an ethnic group.

    Despite evidence to the contrary I posted upthread where an IDF minister specifically used the Hebrew equivalent of the word ‘holocaust’ to describe what Israel would do to Palestine. A word that is hardly ever used to describe anything other than the Nazi genocide.

    You may return to your previously uninformed and stated opinion…

  54. 54.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    January 1, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    @demimondian: Well, ya got me there. No, I haven’t been paying attention to yer google searches. And it’s clear I should be paying less attention to you.

  55. 55.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    @burnspbesq: Invoking logic in a discussion of the clusterfucktastrophe that is the relationship between Israel and Palestine is a bad move all the way around. Logic hasn’t been seen there in a really long time, and doesn’t look like it’s ready to return any time soon.

    You’re calling what’s happening genocide based on the assumption that things won’t change. Maybe you’ll wind up being right, but it’s not a given. Governments fall, policies change, the earth keeps spinning. Maybe the Gazans will turn on Hamas and take care of them personally. Maybe Israel will just wipe Gaza off the map and give the finger to the entire Arab world. Who knows? One thing is a constant here–none of these groups are acting rationally or with the long term best interests of themselves or the region in mind. No one.

  56. 56.

    Henry Ford

    January 1, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    The United Nations representing world opinion at that time decided both sides had rights in the area. It decided the only fair thing to do was to partition the land, Palestine, which had been under British control for 80 years and before that was a conquered land of the Ottoman Empire for 2000 years. Foreign money has been poured into this area to foment wars since the Partition. The world must take notice of the Holocaust which destroyed 1/2 of all living Jews. It was that event that caused the world to consider that some reparations were due the remaining Jews and the result was the offer of a ‘Jewish State’. It must be conceded that Jews were not wanted in most of the countries where they had settled. Therefore the idea of a Jewish State was the only answer, other than total genocide, to dispose of the Jews from lands were they were not wanted. Now, a very well armed Jewish State exists and expects to defend itself and remain viable. The Arabs have huge land holdings, as well as huge financial reserves. It would seem that they could accomodate themselves to a small Jewish State in their midst. Mohammed himself relied on the Old Testament to form the basis of Islam. He was actually very complementary to the Jews living in his midst until it was clear that they rejected accepting his ‘new religion’ of Islam. Stay tuned, the outcome is far from certain. One thing is certain that there will be more war until one side subdues the other. That is historically the outcome of ‘tribal’ wars in the Mideast. I do feel sorry for Jews who came out of Auschwitz only to need to fight just to stay alive and have a place to live. I do not think any modern industrial country wants the Jews to come back and try to settle in their country. So, where should they go?

  57. 57.

    srv

    January 1, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    @demimondian: Since when are the French our allies? We been giving them JDAMs for free?

  58. 58.

    wobbly

    January 1, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    Off topic, I admit, but there is this from Iceland:

    Icelandic TV program featuring PM forced off air

    By VALUR GUNNARSSON – 21 hours ago

    REYKJAVIK, Iceland (AP) — A nationally televised meeting between Iceland’s prime minister and other political leaders was forced off the air Wednesday night when angry protesters disrupted the broadcast.

    For more than two decades, the leaders of Iceland’s political parties have met every New Year’s Eve over champagne and spiced herring to talk about the year ahead on Iceland’s Channel 2 television.

    But this year’s show with Prime Minister Geir Haarde was cut short 45 minutes into the program when a torch-wielding crowd stormed Reykjavik’s Hotel Borg in an attempt to get to the studio.

    Protesters inside and outside the hotel clashed with police, who fired pepper spray to disperse the 500-strong crowd. Some demonstrators threw water balloons, while others tossed firecrackers.

    At one point, the broadcaster’s television cables caught fire, interrupting the live broadcast. The program cut to commercials, followed by an announcement that Channel 2’s equipment had been damaged and the show would be suspended.

    Outside the hotel, a policeman hit on the head with a brick had to be hospitalized. Three protesters were arrested.

    The disruption was the latest in a series of demonstrations that have rocked Iceland since the country’s economy imploded this fall under a mammoth load of bad debt. Unemployment has increased and inflation has soared.

    Demonstrations have been largely peaceful — some protesters were reportedly invited in for coffee when they showed up at President Olafur Grimsson’s home earlier this month.

    But other events have been violent. Icelandic authorities used tear gas for the first time since 1949 when a huge crowd tried to storm a police station in Reykjavik in November, and on Dec. 18, protesters smashed the windows of the country’s financial watchdog agency.

  59. 59.

    whatsleft

    January 1, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    @John S.: Thank you for your kind words. Be as proactive as possible in your children’s education. Haunt their classrooms until you are satisfied with their teachers or ask to move them to another classroom, citing "personality conflicts". Believe me, if the teacher knows you are a dissatisfied parent, the teacher will agree to move the student (actually the PARENT) to another class.

  60. 60.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    @Libby Spencer:

    The Irish peace process is a good enough template. Not by any means perfectly comparable, but it’s what I got. It’s thornier that it was, telling he truth about that process. A lot of Americans have a lot invested in NOT looking rationally at what worked and didn’t work, re: the initial (disastrous) UK response to Irish terrorism.

    That’s in the mix, sadly. US "politics of terrorism response". Muddling things up. Imposing a domestic political agenda over top the problem.

  61. 61.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    @John S.: Yes–a minister said something, and that makes it the official policy of the entire government. I guess that means that the US was declaring war on Islam when General Boykin said the "war on terror" was a case of trying to prove that "our god is bigger than their god." Do you really try to think this shit out before you post it?

    It isn’t that God is the problem for you as much as the fact that people believe in God.

    That’s not even the problem for me, but you’ve proven extensively in the past that you 1) don’t understand atheism, 2) don’t care to understand it because you’ve got a definition in your own pointed little head of why people don’t believe in God and 3) don’t believe us when we tell you differently, so do me a favor and stop trying to figure out what I mean when I talk about this. You’ll save yourself a lot of agony, since you obviously can’t handle the concept.

  62. 62.

    Tony J

    January 1, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    Unfortunately, he chose to start invoking the "JOOS ARE UNTRUSTWORTHY" meme—a classic dog-whistle.

    That’s seriously your argument for tossing out a casual accusation of anti-semitism?

    Someone questions your claim that Israel is just another ally of the United States, because of it’s westernised culture and stable democracy, by suggesting that Israel is obviously far more than ‘just another ally’, and implying that there might be more to it than that, something to do with effective lobbying. And then he throws in a current example of Israel behaving as a bad ally to emphasise that Israel really isn’t treated like any other country.

    But you can tell that they’re just engaging in anti-semitic dog-whistling because they used an example that showed Israel being untrustworthy, and any example of Israel being untrustworthy is automatically just like saying Jews are evil and should be wiped out?

    Let’s just say, I don’t agree with your theory and leave it at that, eh?

  63. 63.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    Be as proactive as possible in your children’s education.

    Oh, I absolutely will.

    The way I see it, my wife and I are the ones primarily responsible for educating our children. The schools and the teachers are our partners in that endeavor.

  64. 64.

    wilfred the shoe thrower

    January 1, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Prior to striking Rayyan’s house the IDF tried to warn his family about the imminent attack and urged them to evacuate the place, but they refused to do so.

    the israel apologists can be dismissed for what they are Cole, but have you lost all capacity for critical thinking?

    Does anyone bother to question anything the Israelis say, or do you just follow it like automatons?

    Let me help. They tried to warn? Does that mean they did or they didn’t? Did they actually warn Rayan’s family, who then did not warn him, or anyone else, all of whom who chose to stay in the house and become martyrs – as if they would somehow be more important than the hundreds of martyrs already killed by the Jews?

    How about some fucking critique for heaven’s sake. if you want to shill for Israel, start blogging again at RedState.

  65. 65.

    Garrigus Carraig

    January 1, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    @demimondian: Illuminate me. Name someone who has spied for Canada on the U.S. Industrial espionage doesn’t count. Or are all our spyin’ allies better than Israel at not getting caught?

  66. 66.

    Hyperion

    January 1, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    @John S.:

    You can assure me all you want – as a teacher – that schools teach critical thinking and aim to make students lifelong learners, but I see very little evidence of it.

    i agree. this year i have been volunteering as a homework helper at the local branch of the library. so i see lots of kids in 3rd to 10th grade. their materials are often poorly thought out. More than once i have said, "sorry, but i cannot understand what the question is asking."

    i complement curriculum developers for trying to get away from rote memorization, etc. and tackle practical subjects like statistics. but i despair of their attempt to change how math is taught. i feel sorry for these kids, many of whom speak english as a second language. they are trying to learn but are hampered by poorly written/designed materials.

    when i taught college chemistry, i constantly cringed at the total lack of critical thinking displayed by most students. so i understand that this is a problem. but teaching critical thinking is FUCKING HARD and very labor intensive.

    i don’t know what the answer is (besides killing one’s TV and computer) but we had better find it soon because the average high-school grad is NOT prepared to live in the modern world.

  67. 67.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    i don’t know what the answer is (besides killing one’s TV and computer) but we had better find it soon because the average high-school grad is NOT prepared to live in the modern world.

    Pliny the Elder said much the same thing 2,000 years ago.

  68. 68.

    John Cole

    January 1, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    @wilfred the shoe thrower: Are you really flaming me for what the article said, in a post in which I said I didn’t see any real point to what the Israeli’s are doing?

    Really?

    Fuck off. I figure people are smart enough to critique what is right there in front of them. Well, I guess everyone but you is smart enough to do that.

    Hell, in my case, I never recovered from this:

    “The air strike killed Nizar Rayyan along with nine other people, including his wife and three children, Hamas said.”

    Who the fuck cares if they tried to warn them or not? They still killed a bunch of kids, itself a morally unacceptable act, while also making sure that the cycle of violence continues on.

  69. 69.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    @Incertus:

    Oh please. For someone who prides themselves on logic and reason, you should try reading for context. It isn’t that some random minister said something untoward. He used a term that is ingrained in the Israeli consciousness to mean a VERY SPECIFIC THING to describe the official Israeli policy towards Palestine.

    The term shoah is not tossed about lightly, and is no way comparable to anything that may be uttered here. The closest analogy would be the term ‘crusade’ to describe the GWOT (which Bush did once and never again). But your ignorance on these matters is repeatedly on display in this thread, so I won’t hold it against you.

    As for the enduring atheism/theism debate, I’m not going there again and I’m sorry I even brought the angle up. Perhaps it’s hard for me to understand what the fuck you are talking about when you keep contradicting yourself:

    Didn’t say God was the problem—I specifically said "belief in a mythical God."

    It isn’t that God is the problem for you as much as the fact that people believe in God.

    That’s not even the problem for me

    Obviously it is impossible to argue with you in good faith on these matters – pun intended. And to clarify 1) I understand atheism perfectly well 2) I don’t really care why you’ve decided in your pointy little head that there is no God because 3) I’ve figured out that you just like to make it up as you go along. You think far too much of yourself if you think I agonize over any of this.

    Happy New Year!

  70. 70.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    @wilfred the shoe thrower:

    Wilfred, why didn’t he get his kids out of that house? Not because of a warning. Because he has to get his kids out of that house, because he’s the target. DAYS AGO.

    Who in his RIGHT MIND waits for his enemy to warn him before getting his kids to safety?

    Wilfred: put them in ANOTHER HOUSE. AWAY from the target.

  71. 71.

    Hyperion

    January 1, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    @The Other Steve:

    What was the worst thing an idiot could do in the time of Pliny?

    And was he talking about Pliny the Younger? ;=)

  72. 72.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    @Hyperion:

    but teaching critical thinking is FUCKING HARD and very labor intensive

    Which is why ultimately I blame the parents and not the education system. Parents are the only ones with the time and influence to adequately teach critical thinking skills to their children.

    The schools and teachers should be reinforcing what the parents are teaching their kids in this department, not being relied upon to be the sole purveyors of it.

  73. 73.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    @John S.:

    Oh please. For someone who prides themselves on logic and reason, you should try reading for context. It isn’t that some random minister said something untoward. He used a term that is ingrained in the Israeli consciousness to mean a VERY SPECIFIC THING to describe the official Israeli policy towards Palestine.

    Yeah yeah, and AckMackDinnerJacket wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth too because he used a word in some sentence which clearly means that is his plan.

    The stupid… It burns…

  74. 74.

    wilfred the shoe thrower

    January 1, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    Wilfred, why didn’t he get his kids out of that house?

    And send them where, Miami? Palestinians have been locked inside Gaza for 16 months, subjected to endless humiliation, body searches and brutality. Watch the Arab Press – children opnely state that they prefer to die with their fathers and mothers then live another day of the occupation. Can you understand that?

    If you can learn to listen to alternative voices you might ask yourself a host of questions.

  75. 75.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    What was the worst thing an idiot could do in the time of Pliny?

    And was he talking about Pliny the Younger? ;=)

    Try to start a rebellion and get yourself crucified?

    Not sure. I guess my point is, since time began people have been complaining about these damn kids and how they don’t know nothin. And yet we still survive.

  76. 76.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    And send them where, Miami? Palestinians have been locked inside Gaza for 16 months, subjected to endless humiliation, body searches and brutality. Watch the Arab Press – children opnely state that they prefer to die with their fathers and mothers then live another day of the occupation. Can you understand that?

    You have an excuse for everything.

    Are you certain you didn’t work for the Bush Administration?

  77. 77.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Which is why ultimately I blame the parents and not the education system. Parents are the only ones with the time and influence to adequately teach critical thinking skills to their children.

    The schools and teachers should be reinforcing what the parents are teaching their kids in this department, not being relied upon to be the sole purveyors of it.

    Ultimately this seems to be the major conflict in our teaching world.

    Many parents have decided to abandon teaching their children and leave it up to the schools, and then complain when they aren’t learning the right things.

    On the other hand there are some in the education profession who think parents can’t be trusted to teach their children anything.

    The attitude has to change, and we need to accept the anarchy that results.

  78. 78.

    burnspbesq

    January 1, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    @Incertus:

    On that last point, we are in complete agreement.

  79. 79.

    Brick Oven Bill

    January 1, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    Good discussion. Mapaghimagsik says:

    Well, that was value. Cutting off Food, Water, and humanitarian aid to a specific group of people sure sounds llike ethnic cleansing.

    It is as old as the hills. Before the age of oil, that was the way it was. Solar power over fertile earth is a finite resource. This is why the world population grew very slowly up until the year 1900. And most of the growth back then was due to opening up the Great Plains.

    History has painted Hitler as a bad guy and he was. Fifty million people died because of his leadership. But, in my opinion, Culturalists are worse. The world population has grown from one billion to well over 6 billion in the age of oil, an unsustainable number. The Chinese are disciplined enough to manage their own population.

    The Culturalists are not. They feel good about themselves when they feed unsustainable populations who average seven children per female, without mandating birth control. This will prove to be a crime against humanity that dwarfs Hilter’s actions. And then they complain about Jews defending themselves.

  80. 80.

    Cain

    January 1, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    @demimondian:

    At the end of the day, who’s in control here, anyway? If He steps in, it will be to help us make better decisions, not to solve our problems for us. We’re in charge here—we get to sleep in the bed we, alone, made.

    Besides after a generation or two, the words would get all twisted into something else and we’ll start it anew.

    cain

  81. 81.

    Garrigus Carraig

    January 1, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    @demimondian: What is the name of the meme equating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism?

    My problem is not so much with Israel. It is the nature of the U.S.’s alliance with Israel. If we stop giving them $3 billion a year & end any security cooperation, I — and most Americans — stop talking about Israel so much. Sheesh.

  82. 82.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    @John S.: Boykin wasn’t exactly a chump when he made those remarks–he was a man with some real power in the government–and those words were every bit as eliminationist as what your IDF minister said, John. Let’s not pretend that this willingness to do monstrous deeds is limited to that part of the world–we’ve got a pretty shitty human rights track record of late.

  83. 83.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    @wilfred the shoe thrower:
    They can stay with their mothers, Wilfred. Come on. You can do better than that.
    I don’t claim to be an expert on warfare, but there’s lots of helpful precedent re: an occupation.
    If you’re a target you get the kids out of the house, or STOP GOING BACK THERE.
    If you’re going to stand on principle, fine, say that. He has a RIGHT to be THERE. Okey doke.
    If I’m his wife he’s not coming back there while they’re looking for him or I’m taking my kids and going.

  84. 84.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    @srv: Um, yes, we have. In fact, we’ve been providing them with an explicit covenant to respond to aggression against them with all force, up to and including nuclear force, since 1949, when an organization called "NATO" was formed.

  85. 85.

    wilfred the shoe thrower

    January 1, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Are you certain you didn’t work for the Bush Administration

    Worst scumbag President in the history of my country. You guys love him to death. Go figure.

  86. 86.

    Cain

    January 1, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    @demimondian:

    @Garrigus Carraig: Do you honestly believe that the Japanese and the Europeans—hell, the Canadians—don’t spy on us?

    No, actually, it’s just the JOOS who spy on us, amirite?

    Hey, I"m using Google right now to spy on America!

    cain

  87. 87.

    Badtux

    January 1, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    What baffles me is the notion that Israel is an ally.

    Here is a quiz:

    1. How many U.S. military bases are in Israel?
    2. How many Israeli troops are involved in U.S. peacekeeping operations?
    3. What enemies of the United States are also enemies of Israel?
    4. How much intelligence does the United States receive from Israel about the military capabilities of nations in the region?
    5. Name one action — any action — whether military or diplomatic, which Israel has taken within the past thirty years that served U.S. interests rather than Israeli interests.

    Here’s an answer key:

    1. None.
    2. None.
    3. None.
    4. None. In fact, this got some of our airmen killed in 1983 when they went to bomb Syrian positions and were shot down by Syrian SAM’s that Israel had figured out how to jam the previous year.
    5. None.

    Some "ally".

    Personally, I say put up a fuggin’ fence around the area and let’em exterminate each other without any help from the outside. We’ll open the fence up a decade or two from now and the winner gets Palestine. Which is like saying "the winner gets a bunch of worthless desert", but WTF. That’s what they both want, so (shrug).

    – Badtux the Sarcastic Penguin

  88. 88.

    wilfred the shoe thrower

    January 1, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    You can do better than that.

    See, you can’t comprehend it. You don’t know what it’s like In Gaza, how it has been. You expect something from someone according to your own conventional standards about what something should be.

    It’s the dilemma Toni Morrison depicted in Beloved. Go to Palestine. See and feel for yourself. Dress like a Muslim woman and try to cross an israeli checkpoint.

    Do if for years, then pass judgment.

    You never asked, by the way why the israelis just didn’t wait. Why not?

  89. 89.

    John Cole

    January 1, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    @The Other Steve: I will play. Where the fuck was he supposed to send his kids? Where are the safe spots in Gaza?

    I am sick of the hardened attitudes in place about this issue.

    Folks on the Palestinian side want to downplay what they have done, which pisses me off. Those are real fucking rockets. They do damage. They kill people. They wound people. They keep people living in a climate of fear and terror. I don’t give a shit if they are crude, they are real and dangerous and you surrender your rights to complain about Israeli behavior if you are a party to launching rockets at civilians.

    On the other side, the Israel can do no wrong crowd, everything is downplayed. “They had it coming” seems to be the prevailing attitude. Christ on a fucking crutch, how many people were killed in the above mentioned rocket attacks the past few years. How many civilians were killed in THIS FUCKING airstrike. Not all the airstrikes in the past week. THIS SINGLE STRIKE.

    Glib responses like “they should elect better leadership” are provided when you are talking about a million + people living in squalor, ignorance, with staggering poverty, no education, zero quality of life, no food, and constantly humiliated. Somehow that is acceptable for some people here, when the vast majority of the people in Gaza suffering are there simply because of who they were born to.

    Fuck I hate everyone in this debate. Just cretins as far as the eyes can see.

  90. 90.

    wilfred the shoe thrower

    January 1, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Personally, I say put up a fuggin’ fence around the area and let’em exterminate each other without any help from the outside

    Palestinians would take that deal any day of the week.

  91. 91.

    SGEW

    January 1, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    These have been the worst threads ever in B-J history.

    Fuck, Brick Oven Bill seems almost normal when he posts. Yeah, it’s that bad.

    Oh well. Carry on.

  92. 92.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    @Incertus: I disagree. "Shoah" is a loaded term. In its original context, it refers not just to the actual extermination, but to the pattern of actions which led up to it, including the restrictions on civil rights, usage of people as slave labor, and, ultimately, the "Final Solution" itself. That’s why the genocides in Rwanda and Armenia aren’t quite of the same order as the 11 million dead in WWII — the whole Nazi state was engaged in a methodical, indeed almost clinical, industry of death.

    Threatening anyone with that is beyond the pale of civilized discourse.

  93. 93.

    wilfred the shoe thrower

    January 1, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    Fuck I hate everyone in this debate. Just cretins as far as the eyes can see

    Fuck you, too. You can’t see that one side has all the guns and the full support of the most corrupt regime this country has ever had.

    It’s all the same, my ass. If you actually give a shit then start posting how it doesn’t do this country any good when the innocents on one side are killed with weapons bought and paid for by Americans.

  94. 94.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    There is a difference between "could they be spying" and "caught spying"

    Israel has been caught spying. That doesn’t necessarily make them "the enemy" — New Zeland and France are on cordial terms despite the Rainbow Warrior incident — but it doesn’t necessarily mean that I’d say they respect or sovereignty very much.

    It also means that like many other political associations, we’re friends of convenience. Which means that if it benefitted foreign policy to screw over the US, it would be done in a hearbeat. To the more fanatical elements of the Israeli government, we’re just another form of the enemy, to be used, abused and thrown away — a lighter shade of Palestinian, if you will.

    Similar elements are in the US, and see Israel as nothing more than a tool for them to get to their end times. However, I don’t think those elements have gotten near the power that the more fanatical groups in Israel have in the Kessnet.

    I think we need to dump this whole "We’re a friend of Israel" business, and benefit Israel as befitting their value to US foreign interests, just like any other country.

  95. 95.

    demimondian

    January 1, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    @John Cole: In point of fact, John, Gaza is not that small a place. Whan an attack is imminent, the option of walking out the front door (w/o dad), and climbing into a car with diplomatic insignia — say,l a Norwegian one, if not a UN one — is always there, after all. There are lots of places those kids could have gone, and it’s a trifle disingenous to claim otherwise.

    Truth is, they were consciously used as human shields. That’s a pretty obscene thing to do.

  96. 96.

    John Cole

    January 1, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Truth is, they were consciously used as human shields. That’s a pretty obscene thing to do.

    You know what else is obscene? Bombing a house when you know there are kids in it. And you know how we know they knew? Because they are telling us they warned them. Know what that means? They intentionally bombed kids.

    Would you support the United States ever doing something like that?

  97. 97.

    wilfred the shoe thrower

    January 1, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    In point of fact, John, Gaza is not that small a place. Whan an attack is imminent, the option of walking out the front door (w/o dad), and climbing into a car with diplomatic insignia—say,l a Norwegian one, if not a UN one—is always there, after all. There are lots of places those kids could have gone, and it’s a trifle disingenous to claim otherwise.

    That’s true – they could also have hidden in the empty space between your ears. Norwegians, bloody fucking hell.

  98. 98.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Threatening anyone with that is beyond the pale of civilized discourse.

    Nice to see someone else besides me understands this point.

    The Other Steve, you would do well to look into the cultural significance of the word shoah before spouting off about the ‘stupid burning’.

    Incertus, I’m not suggesting the United States has the moral authority to lecture anyone about humans rights violations. But like TOS, you simply do not understand the significance of the term used by the IDF minister. Some things really DO get lost in translation, I guess.

  99. 99.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    @John Cole:

    The Hamas leadership, who are targeted, could put their children in one or a number of houses, with their mothers, and announce that.

    They could specify an area, even. They could mark it. Christ, John, they could do it with something as simple as spray paint. That’s what functioning governments do. They impose order amid catastrophe.

    If that’s fruitless, if that doesn’t work, they’d then have a HUGE humanitarian STICK to beat Israel over the head with, and the whole "human shield" argument would be over.

  100. 100.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    @demimondian:

    I don’t mean to pick, but are you saying that the reason the German genocide was so horrible is because they were good at it? I realize when you look at a state engaged in such near-perfect machinery it can be — I can’t think of another word besides horrifying — but when you look at the state involvement in other genocides, Rawanda and Darfur, the horror is still very much there.

    In the case of Israel, and I don’t mean to throw Godwin into this, all of the elements seem to be there — an enabling government, a demonization of the enemy to the point of calling them subhuman, support from the church, and fortunes made and lost with the business of settlements, companies that bulldoze homes, contractors bidding on the perfect walls, etc.

    The other thing that’s included is collusion with foreign powers.

    What I think is different in the two pictures is just that the message isn’t getting out.

    So its not a perfect analogy by any means. And it seems that every different genocide takes a different course — either with ovens and camps, or with machetes, or with Bosnia a mix if civilian and military.

    But there are parallels, including the reluctance to call it for what it is.

  101. 101.

    wilfred the shoe thrower

    January 1, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    That’s a pretty obscene thing to do.

    Killing them, on the other hand, is what you’re here to defend.

    Norwegians, say.

  102. 102.

    Incertus

    January 1, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    @John S.: Again–since you seem to have trouble with this concept–does that minister speak for the Israeli government? Is he saying that shoah is the official policy of the Israeli government as concerns the Palestinians? Or is he simply talking out of his own ass? You might not be able to tell the difference, seeing as you do the latter so much of the fucking time.

  103. 103.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    @John Cole:

    I don’t speak for myself here, but there’s plenty of people who would say "yes"

    I also think we’ve done all that and more in Iraq. Saddam’s kids were no angels, but there almost seemed to be a tribal "destroy your bloodline" about the whole process.

  104. 104.

    LanceThruster

    January 1, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    In the words of Fredy Perlman:

    "The trick of declaring war against the armed resistance and then attacking the resisters’ unarmed kin as well as the sur­rounding population with the most gruesome products of Death-Science — this trick is not new. American Pioneers were pioneers in this too; they made it standard practice to declare war on indigenous warriors and then to murder and burn villages with only women and children in them. This is already modern war, what we know as war against civilian populations; it has also been called, more candidly, mass murder or genocide.

    Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised that the perpetrators of a Pogrom portray themselves as the victims, in the present case as victims of the Holocaust.

    Herman Melville noticed over a century ago, in his analysis of the metaphysics of Indian-hating, that those who made a full-time profession of hunting and murdering indigenous people of this continent always made themselves appear, even in their own eyes, as the victims of manhunts."

    From: ANTI-SEMITISM & THE BEIRUT POGROM

  105. 105.

    Andrew

    January 1, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    You know what else is obscene? Bombing a house when you know there are kids in it. And you know how we know they knew? Because they are telling us they warned them. Know what that means? They intentionally bombed kids.
    Would you support the United States ever doing something like that?

    Yes, in certain circumstances. E.g. dropping atomic weapons and firebombing Japan killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. We intentionally bombed kids, and it was justified.

    Now, I don’t think Israel should have escalated to bombing in the current situation, but if you think destroying a target is critical, it’s pretty easy to see how civilian casualties are an acceptable cost.

  106. 106.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    I will play. Where the fuck was he supposed to send his kids? Where are the safe spots in Gaza?

    I am sick of the hardened attitudes in place about this issue.

    Gaza isn’t that small… There are plenty of places to go. I guess I really don’t understand why a man would keep his family with him if he knows he is a target. Must be a cultural difference, cause in the west this is regarded as cowardly.

    As far as the hardened attitudes. Honestly, my attitude isn’t all that hardened.

    My problem is all the nutters running around claiming the Palestinians are perfect angels who never do wrong, and Israelis have no right to self-defense and any action they take no matter how much they work to limit collateral damage is the equivalent of genocide. So I speak out and question them.

    I’m pretty critical of Israel too, however this isn’t the environment for that because the nutters will jump up and down and claim vindication if I were to say what I really feel. But I don’t want to side with them because they’re the equivalent of holocaust deniers. That is the way of arguments on the internet.

    If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, they could. A bombardment on the scale of what we did to Dresden would eliminate the Palestinian threat for once and for all. But for some reason they don’t do that. They hold back. And yet they are accused of genocide.

  107. 107.

    Emma Anne

    January 1, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    I’m Irish, and I used to think that if there can be peace and reconciliation in Ulster, there can be peace and reconciliation in Palestine. I’m no longer that naive. There is no Gerry Adams in Palestine, and there is no Tony Blair in the Israeli government.

    I still think that. The leadership you mention is (IMO) going to have to come from the U.S. A lot of progress was made in the middle east in previous administrations (especially Carter and Clinton). We have just had eight years of malign neglect from this administration, and so things have gotten worse instead of better – just like every other area of endeavor.

  108. 108.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    does that minister speak for the Israeli government

    Do you? I mean you’re always talking about israel this and israel that – do you have a secret pipeline to the official government ass?

  109. 109.

    J. Michael Neal

    January 1, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Culturally, socially, and technically, by contrast, Israel is naturally an ally—a genuine Western democracy with a transparent and secular liberal government. We could and should act aggressively to try to change their foreign policy and their policies towards Arab Israelis, just as we did prior to the Bush era. We shouldn’t lie about whether they’re a country with which we can comfortably get along in other important ways.

    I want to emphasize what demi said here, because I agree with it. In other threads, I have been very harsh about Israel’s actions, and I don’t take any of it back. Their bombing of Gaza while, at the same time, not fulfilling their legal and moral duty to protect Arab civilians in territory they control is appalling.

    However, I readily agree that there are much worse governments around that I don’t complain about as much. Just sticking with those that are engaged in active hostilities, Congo and Sudan come to mind. I do hold Israel to a higher standard. They claim to be a working, Western democracy. Therefore, that’s the standard they should be held to, not that of corrupt, despotic dictatorships. Further, they are dependent upon large amounts of subsidies from my country. Given that, the US has a responsibility to demand more from them.

  110. 110.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    The Hamas leadership, who are targeted, could put their children in one or a number of houses, with their mothers, and announce that.

    They could specify an area, even. They could mark it. Christ, John, they could do it with something as simple as spray paint. That’s what functioning governments do. They impose order amid catastrophe.

    You have to understand. The Palestinians have routinely used ambulances to move soldiers and weapons. They view such traditions as quaint and weaknesses of western tradition.

  111. 111.

    John Cole

    January 1, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    And one more time, I say again. Yes, he should have sent his kids elsewhere.

    But that does not absolve Israel of bombing a house with kids in it, even if they warned him. Can you not understand how both are wrong.

    Bombing fucking kids is always wrong. Bombing civilians is wrong, even if you warn them. Even if you meant to take out a “target.” Bombing civilians is wrong whether it is done intentionally with inaccurate rockets by Palestinians, bombing civilians is wrong when it is done with laser-guided missiles by the IAF and the targets were just “collateral damage.”

    Seriously, what is wrong with all of you?

  112. 112.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    @wilfred the shoe thrower:

    Wilfred, you’re telling me the Israelis never follow the rules and then you’re telling me they aren’t following the rules, again. But those kids are still dead. Is it a time to be screaming about the rules? Let’s move the kids and then scream about the rules. Hamas is a government, right? An authority? This is a crisis, and no one is coming to help.

  113. 113.

    J. Michael Neal

    January 1, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    does that minister speak for the Israeli government

    Yes. By definition, a minister in a government is speaking for it. If the rest of the government doesn’t want him to represent them, they need to dismiss him from his post.

    My problem is all the nutters running around claiming the Palestinians are perfect angels who never do wrong, and Israelis have no right to self-defense and any action they take no matter how much they work to limit collateral damage is the equivalent of genocide. So I speak out and question them.

    Okay, so we know why you oppose wilfred. No one else, in this thread or the others, has said anything like this.

  114. 114.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    @John Cole:

    Seriously, what is wrong with all of you?

    Nothing is "wrong" with them. They are perfectly normal.

    Which is what makes it all so horrible on so many levels.

    Happy New Year.

  115. 115.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    Now, I don’t think Israel should have escalated to bombing in the current situation, but if you think destroying a target is critical, it’s pretty easy to see how civilian casualties are an acceptable cost.

    Well if you think that than you’re an apologist for killing children and thus a scumbag of the very order that you routinely criticize.

    How pragmatic of you and, dare I say it – brave. Someone had to say what you said.

  116. 116.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    I still think that. The leadership you mention is (IMO) going to have to come from the U.S. A lot of progress was made in the middle east in previous administrations (especially Carter and Clinton). We have just had eight years of malign neglect from this administration, and so things have gotten worse instead of better – just like every other area of endeavor.

    The answer is not in negotiating with the Palestinians, but rather negotiating between Israel and the existing states in the region… Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. Just as Carter did with Egypt.

    The problem in the region is that all the other countries provoke the Palestinians to keep causing trouble with Israel.

    Look at what Egypt is doing with Gaza. They’ve isolated them and are refusing to cooperate. The reasoning is clear… It’s not in Egypt’s self-interest to have insane whacktards living next to them who frequently spill out and cause trouble. Especially not in this day and age when Egypt is reliant upon foreigners coming to their shores for tourism and other trade.

  117. 117.

    Punchy

    January 1, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    I suggest Israel use their nukes if they want to win. Why even have such weapons if you’re not going to use them?

  118. 118.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    January 1, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Folks on the Palestinian side want to downplay what they have done, which pisses me off. Those are real fucking rockets. They do damage. They kill people.

    17 killed in seven years. The latest rocket attack that spurred the Israeli attacks: 0 killed. I’m with ya all the way up until we try to portray the rocket attacks as anything other than hugely ineffective. When we refuse to attach an actual casualty report to the ominous "Hamas rocket attacks", the propagandists win.

  119. 119.

    Reverend Dennis

    January 1, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Both sides in this debate might benefit from taking a few minutes to read at least Part 4 of MUJAHIDEEN BLEED-THROUGH in Asia Times Online. The article presents the facts of the infiltration of Salafi jihaddis into the Levant. Just the facts: the author favors neither side in the Israel/Palestein conflict.

    Something you probably didn’t know: Israel indirectly provided funding to Hamas back in the Seventies. The idea was to provide a counterpoise to the PLO and to infiltrate Hamas. The idea blew up as Hamas greatly expanded its influence after the PLO moved its headquarters to Lebanon. Hamas also purged those elements felt to have been compromised by the Israelis.

  120. 120.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    Bombing fucking kids is always wrong. Bombing civilians is wrong, even if you warn them. Even if you meant to take out a “target.” Bombing civilians is wrong whether it is done intentionally with inaccurate rockets by Palestinians, bombing civilians is wrong when it is done with laser-guided missiles by the IAF and the targets were just “collateral damage.”

    Seriously, what is wrong with all of you?

    Civilians have always been targets in war, since before Rome slaughtered every man in Carthage, enslaved their women and salted the soil. The idea that armies would march out to the battlefield and play tiddly winks to decide the outcome was an illusion in the age of Napoleon.

  121. 121.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    No one else, in this thread or the others, has said anything like this.

    Said what? Fuck israel – yes, i say that all the time but I never say it is ok to kill women or children.

    Only israeli apologists do that – then they project it on other people. Like Andrew just did.

  122. 122.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    17 killed in seven years. The latest rocket attack that spurred the Israeli attacks: 0 killed. I’m with ya all the way up until we try to portray the rocket attacks as anything other than hugely ineffective. When we refuse to attach an actual casualty report to the ominous "Hamas rocket attacks", the propagandists win.

    This is immaterial to the discussion.

  123. 123.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    Civilians have always been targets in war,

    So when Palestinians target civilians it’s ok??? Sorry, I just can’t agree with that.

    it might be ok for israel supporters to think like that – as they clearly do – but i can’t agree.

  124. 124.

    liberal

    January 1, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    @The Other Steve:

    There is nothing we can do from the outside. We just have to let them kill each other until they’ve had enough. Calls for cease fire and such are irresponsible.

    Idiotic, considering we’re not "outside"—we give Israel billions in dollars in aid every year.

  125. 125.

    Andrew

    January 1, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Bombing fucking kids is always wrong.

    It’s not possible to always avoid killing children, and in some circumstances, civilian casualties are warranted in pursuit of a greater good.

    Would it have been wrong to bomb Hitler knowing he was with his family? Sorry to refer back to the Nazis, but they’re the extreme that makes the concept pretty easy to grasp.

  126. 126.

    Reverend Dennis

    January 1, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    The reasoning is clear… It’s not in Egypt’s self-interest to have insane whacktards living next to them who frequently spill out and cause trouble. Especially not in this day and age when Egypt is reliant upon foreigners coming to their shores for tourism and other trade.

    Actually, Egypt’s support of the Gaza blockade stems from its continuing efforts to suppress the Muslim Brotherhood, which is Egypt’s main opposition party. The Muslim brotherhood has officially eschewed violence since its founding in 1928 but it does have political ties with Hamas.

  127. 127.

    J. Michael Neal

    January 1, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    17 killed in seven years. The latest rocket attack that spurred the Israeli attacks: 0 killed. I’m with ya all the way up until we try to portray the rocket attacks as anything other than hugely ineffective. When we refuse to attach an actual casualty report to the ominous "Hamas rocket attacks", the propagandists win.

    This is immaterial to the discussion.

    Actually, it’s critical to the discussion. What, exactly, Israel is trying to prevent can’t be ignored.

  128. 128.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    @Incertus:

    What a pompous ass you really are. You’ve been wrong about so many things on this thread, have contradicted yourself numerous times and yet concede nothing, convinced of your own intellectual superiority.

    Since you are blinded by that, I know you can’t possibly imagine that Israel’s deputy defense minister – when discussing the Israeli response to the situation in Gaza – is by definition, as a government spokesman, understood to be expressing government policy, and not his personal feelings. Perhaps it was a slip of the tongue, and just a poor choice of words (which it certainly was). But frankly, it doesn’t matter what his intention was. He used a loaded word while speaking in an official capacity, and that is entirely unnerving to those of us that understand the significance behind the term he used. The fact that he has paid no political price for his gaffe I think is rather revealing.

    Anyway, I’m through dealing with your special blend of arrogance and obnoxiousness, and leave you to your delusions of grandeur.

  129. 129.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Okay, so we know why you oppose wilfred. No one else, in this thread or the others, has said anything like this.

    At least 4 people just in this thread alone have accused Israel of Genocide.

    Maybe you ought to read the work of the nutters.

  130. 130.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    @John Cole:

    I’m sorry to upset. You’re right. I love children, not all of them, but generally I do. I am acutely aware nearly every day of my working life how powerless they are, and I settled on "practical and immediate" a long time ago. I don’t have a big picture, regarding them. I haven’t found that to be helpful.

  131. 131.

    liberal

    January 1, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    @demimondian:

    At the end of the day, that’s why Israel is an ally, for exactly the same reasons that Japan and Western Europe are well established allies.

    Silly. We should get into alliances only if it’s in our national interest.

    And as George Washington and John Quincy Adams pointed out centuries ago, it’s almost never in our national interest.

  132. 132.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Actually, it’s critical to the discussion. What, exactly, Israel is trying to prevent can’t be ignored.

    Exactly how is it critical?

    It’s ok for them to shoot at their neighbors because they’ve got shitty aim?

  133. 133.

    liberal

    January 1, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    @Tony J:

    That’s always been the only long-term solution, but it’s also been the hardest to bring about because it requires a long-term commitment from an outside power willing to put bodies on the borders and keep them there, while also spending billions on reconstruction and economic stimulus.

    Wrong. It begins with an outside power which happens to supply a few percent of native GDP to one of the parties of the conflict—the stronger one, actually—no longer giving that party aid, thus driving up the cost of its choice of its decision to occupy lands populated by the weaker party.

  134. 134.

    liberal

    January 1, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    @Garrigus Carraig:

    Maybe Israel is an ally because the alliance seemed to make sense during the Cold War.

    Interestingly, Israel got its aid originally from the Communist block. First big shipment of war materiel in 1948 was from Czechoslovakia, IIRC.

    That changed, of course.

  135. 135.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    @John S.:

    What a pompous ass you really are. You’ve been wrong about so many things on this thread, have contradicted yourself numerous times and yet concede nothing, convinced of your own intellectual superiority.

    Did you ever respond to the Iranian genocide point I made?

    This taking words out of context and assigning grandeous meaning to them to justify your preconceived notions, is not what I would call an intellectually superior excercise.

  136. 136.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    Would it have been wrong to bomb Hitler knowing he was with his family

    Dormitory philosophy. Why of course it wouldn’t! Would it have been right for some Palestinian from Shattilla to kill Ariel Sharon’s mother before she had him? Why, yes!!

    Would it have been right to bludgeon Princess Di’s driver to death with a hob-nailed boot before he got loaded, crashed the car and snuffed out her glittering like? Sniff, hell yes?

    Would it have been right to enter World War I on the side of the Germans and attacked Japan before Pearl Harbor and shot Castro? Hell yes!

    Fucking baby killing twit.

  137. 137.

    liberal

    January 1, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    @Incertus:

    You’d be hard-pressed to even make a case for this as ethnic cleansing, and genocide, to my mind, is more extreme than that.

    Of course it’s not genocide.

    As for ethnic cleansing, that’s certainly the long-term Israeli plan for the occupied territories, at least significant chunks of the West Bank.

  138. 138.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    @The Other Steve:

    This is immaterial to the discussion.

    I can’t be quite so dismissive. We have groups in the US that have killed far more people — and we haven’t layed waste to their home states yet. McVeigh acted alone, but had Michigan militia ties. Michigan still stands.

    The Weather Underground was also largely ineffective in their bombing campaigns — of course, they *really* warned folks instead of just firing. The Weather Underground has *very* weak links to our president elect, but again we kinda rose above all that.

    In similar incidents, fundamentalist Christian groups have killed but also been largely ineffective. Even now, Christians are allowed to practice their religion freely.

    The US, for all of its other faults, has at least in this instance been able to separate the criminal from the homeland, and not be so zealous in our collective punishments.

  139. 139.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    It’s not in Egypt’s self-interest to have insane whacktards living next to them who frequently spill out and cause trouble.

    Egypt shares a border with israel?

  140. 140.

    J. Michael Neal

    January 1, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    At least 4 people just in this thread alone have accused Israel of Genocide.

    Yes, they have, which is not what you accused them of saying. They did not say that the Palestinians were perfect. They did not say that Israel has no right to self defense. The only way you can justify either of these arguments is to say that what the Israelis are doing now is the only way they could possibly respond. It’s not. Condemning current Israeli policy is not the same thing as saying that any policy they undertook would be wrong.

    It’s ok for them to shoot at their neighbors because they’ve got shitty aim?

    This is a perfect example of you tilting at strawmen. Again, no one (and apparently not even wilfred) has said this. Go back, and try again. Stop misrepresenting what we have been saying.

  141. 141.

    Andrew

    January 1, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    Wilfred, if you don’t understand the difference between civilian casualties during an ongoing war and your imaginary scenarios that require the ability to predict the future, you’re even more stupid than you appear.

  142. 142.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    At least 4 people just in this thread alone have accused Israel of Genocide.

    They haven’t gotten there yet, but their actions seem to indicate that they are working on – at the very least – ethnic cleansing, and their official spokesman has already previously described the effort as thus. But let’s overlook all that, because like us they are the ‘good guys’. Or something.

    Anyway, I’m an American Jew who had family members perish in the Holocaust, so if you’re attempting to brand me a nutter and lump me in with the likes of Wilfred or B.O.B. for merely observing reality, then you can go fuck yourself.

    I’m not an anti-semite, and I don’t hate myself for being a Jew. I just see no reason to gloss over the culpability of Israel’s actions because they share the same heritage as I do.

    Did you ever respond to the Iranian genocide point I made?

    I’m sorry, I missed that. Point it out, if you would be so kind.

  143. 143.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    Interestingly, Israel got its aid originally from the Communist block. First big shipment of war materiel in 1948 was from Czechoslovakia, IIRC.

    That changed, of course.

    And the Mirage and Mystere jets flown by Israeli Air Force in the six day war in 1967 came from France.

    The US relationship with Israel was pretty apathetic until Carter, and then it became more gung-ho under Reagan.

  144. 144.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    This is a perfect example of you tilting at strawmen. Again, no one (and apparently not even wilfred) has said this. Go back, and try again. Stop misrepresenting what we have been saying.

    So did you have a point?

    You were the one who brought up the ineffectiveness of the rockets.

  145. 145.

    srv

    January 1, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    All Andrew, kay, TOS and sadly demi have are Godwin or the moral equivalents.

    Somehow, someone is supposed to legitimately (though they would even argue that) fight (for a lifetime) with the modern equivalents of sticks and stones against and generational occupier/blockader/oppressor possessing thermonuclear weapons and an endless supply of weaponry from the US without ever having familial relations. They should just find a big empty space somewhere in Gaza, label it "Bomb Here" and then wait to get obliterated.

    Damn those brown people, why don’t they fight like I require them to?

  146. 146.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    January 1, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    O/T and Happy New Year everyone, just got back from three days in Myrtle Beach. Fun times. I am still catching up on the blogs but wanted to post this before it got dumped in my increasingly faulty memory files. Spent some time in Molly Darcy’s Irish Pub and there was English Premier League soccer on the teevees (among other things) just wanted you hard working American Tax payers to know that your 750 billion is being spent ever so wisely allowing over-paid nancy boy English soccer players to prance around with AIG emblazoned on their jerseys while they fall to the ground screaming and grabbing their shin every time a member of the opposing team gets within three feet of them, cause you know they are so deserving of your money to keep them in champagne and slut trophy wives and all while you struggle to pay your bills.

    http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid

    PS) slightly more on topic (one of the comments being about the Irish conflict) but we went to another Irish pub called "Shamrocks" and they had one of those chalk board thingies advertising drink specials. Now perhaps it is me being hyper sensitive and all considering my history but personally I found a drink special being called "Irish Car Bomb" offensive, you know a bit like a London pub frequented by New Yorkers having a drink special called oh I dunno a "World Trade Center 747" or something. (And to add insult to injury their shepards pie absolutely sucked).

  147. 147.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    Wilfred, if you don’t understand the difference between civilian casualties during an ongoing war and your imaginary scenarios that require the ability to predict the future, you’re even more stupid than you appear.

    Stupid? I dont think so.

    Defender of killing children? Nope.

    That would be you. Now if you think that a Palestinian has the right to blow himself up in a tel aviv bar freq
    uented by israeli reservists about to head to Gaza then you would make sense.

    How about it Field Marshall?

  148. 148.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    Egypt shares a border with israel?

    HUH!?

  149. 149.

    The Moar You Know

    January 1, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    Wilfred supports murdering women who don’t dress properly.

  150. 150.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    @wilfred the shoe thrower:

    I ask all the time why Israelis don’t wait. While I’m pondering that, those kids are still dead.
    You already told me who won’t help. That leaves me with Hamas. Just shut up and mark and move, Wilfred, because then they have a shot at survival.

  151. 151.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    Damn those brown people, why don’t they fight like I require them to?

    Nobody is saying that.

    What I’m saying is don’t whine like a little baby about how unfair it is when you kick a tiger in the ass and he rips your head off.

  152. 152.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    This taking words out of context and assigning grandeous meaning to them to justify your preconceived notions, is not what I would call an intellectually superior excercise.

    As opposed to your rigorous and serious intellectual exercise of simply ignoring the definition of a term and then stampeding towards a preconceived notion that flies in the face of the universally accepted definition?

  153. 153.

    The Other Steve

    January 1, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    I gotta move on and do something useful. Arguing with people about I/P issues who don’t even know Israel shares a border with Egypt is a waste of time.

  154. 154.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    What I’m saying is don’t whine like a little baby about how unfair it is when you kick a tiger in the ass and he rips your head off.

    I don’t think your analogy holds water since unlike a tiger, the government of Israel has the capacity for a thoughtful and measured response, whereas the tiger is simply acting on instinct.

    I know this is an intellectually inferior argument compared to what you are used to, so I apologize in advance for wasting your precious time.

    P.S. Since you are so intellectually superior, I supposed it escaped your attention that Israel has several points that border with Egypt including the Nitzana Border Crossing between Al Uja, Egypt and Nitzana, Israel, the Taba Border Crossing in Eilat and the Rafah Border Crossing.

  155. 155.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    @wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:

    Oy.

    I don’t think I’d want either Palestine or Israel as neighbors. Then again, I wouldn’t want any neighbor who thinks my land is "their holy land" That and both Jewish and Islamic fundamentalists seem to think they lay claim to my body and alleged soul.

    A pox on both their houses, and the christian extremists who support them.

  156. 156.

    J. Michael Neal

    January 1, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    You were the one who brought up the ineffectiveness of the rockets.

    Yeah. I did that because they are ineffective. It’s still not what you are claiming I said. Try again.

  157. 157.

    liberal

    January 1, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    @Badtux:

    3. What enemies of the United States are also enemies of Israel? … None

    Well, it’s more complicated than that: e.g. Iran. Iran is by our policy an enemy right now. The important, more nuanced point, is that that doesn’t serve our national interests—we’d be much better off normalizing relations with Iran.

    (Interesting article linked to at antiwar.com recently pointed out that not only the Israeli gov’t, but also the Arab gov’ts, don’t want us to do that.)

  158. 158.

    John Cole

    January 1, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    Re: Irish Car Bombs

    The taste is by far more offensive than the name.

  159. 159.

    srv

    January 1, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    @The Other Steve: Calling Israeli’s animals now… Wish you folks would make up your minds.

    So blind you can’t even get Wilfred’s snark.

  160. 160.

    John S.

    January 1, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    @The Other Steve:

    My apologies, I completely misread you there. You clearly realize that Israel does border Egypt.

    Sorry for the erroneous barb thrown your way.

  161. 161.

    Garrigus Carraig

    January 1, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    @liberal:

    […] we’d be much better off normalizing relations with Iran.

    (Interesting article linked to at antiwar.com recently pointed out that not only the Israeli gov’t, but also the Arab gov’ts, don’t want us to do that.)

    Indeed. And if one is confused about foreign policy, a course of action opposed by the Israelis and the Arabs should probably be thoughtfully considered.

  162. 162.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    January 1, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    @The Other Steve: TOS, I’m going to reply to you as if you’ve been something other than a nonsensical twit for three straight I/P threads.

    Seventeen dead Israelis in seven years from Hamas rocket attacks is critically important because most people don’t fucking know it. While we’re killing hundreds of Palestinians a day, including women and children, it’s important to know it’s not actually in response to the killing of an Israeli.

    Under the current Israeli rules of engagement, ONE free radical with a rocket launcher – not necessarily a Palestinian, mind you – can spell doom and destruction for hundreds of innocents, all because they had the misfortune not to be born to Steve’s parents in a safe and secure place where one can yell "Kill ’em all and let God sort ’em out" without suffering anything more than a sore throat.

    I know you don’t give a damn, but other more emotionally mature people may care. For you, it will take someone blowing up your kids in pursuit of someone else to drive the point home.

  163. 163.

    Publicola

    January 1, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    @The Other Steve:

    If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, they could.

    Sure, but then they’d lose the support of the United States, which they need to exist. And they’d also radicalize many millions of Arabs and Muslims.

    A bombardment on the scale of what we did to Dresden would eliminate the Palestinian threat for once and for all

    Your scale estimate is off by at least one, and most likely two, orders of magnitude. Even the highest causality estimates for Dresden – a single city – are in the 250k range; most historians put the estimate far lower, in the 25k-40k range.

    Gaza and the West Bank – territories containing multiple cities, of course – are home to 2.5 million Palestinians.

    But sure: if Israel bombed the Palestinians out of existence then yeah, that would eliminate the Palestinian threat for once and for all.

    The threat of the hundreds of millions of then-radicalized Arabs and Muslims, however – not so much.

    Which is to say: while the Israelis could indeed bombard the Palestinians out of existence, actually doing so is not a viable option.

  164. 164.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    Wilfred supports murdering women who don’t dress properly.

    Right. Like my wife and daughters, none of whom are Muslim.

    Jews kill Palestinian children. Repeat: Jews kill palestinian children. The only thing capable of rousing Cole from cat fetishim and stuffing his face.

    Jews knowingly and deliberately killed children. Choke on it.

    Arguing with people about I/P issues who don’t even know Israel shares a border with Egypt is a waste of time

    Poor Steve, denser than a cinderblock up a hamster’s ass. it was a joke steve, you know, in response to … oh forget it. Oh, btw, Steve, jews knowingly and deliberately killed children today. Just thought I’d remind you. Cheers.

    Just shut up and mark and move, Wilfred

    Gee, Kay, what can I say? Sanctimonious wanking becomes you. Oh, you still didn’t say that israel killing those children was a bad thing, but that’s a mother for you.

    ma’asalama…not.

  165. 165.

    Brick Oven Bill

    January 1, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    …if you’re attempting to brand me a nutter and lump me in with the likes of Wilfred or B.O.B. for merely observing reality…

    Strange mind John S. has. Somehow advocating mandatory birth control in exchange for food aid to dependent populations makes one a Nazi. I guess John would prefer that these people starve. Starvation is a cruel mechanism to reduce world population to sustainable levels.

    You see, feeling good about yourself is what is important. That is the highest form of ethics.

  166. 166.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 4:38 pm

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    For you, it will take someone blowing up your kids in pursuit of someone else to drive the point home.

    I think you misjudge. In that terrible case, I will bet that vengeance at the bomber at all costs will be declared, and that anyone who can provide even a modicum of retribution will be wholeheartedly supported.

    And far away, someone will tsk over "kicking a tiger in the ass".

  167. 167.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    @srv:

    I never said anything like "never having family relations".

    I knew bringing up "moving the kids" was going to lead DIRECTLY to accusations of Palestinians using "human shields", and then a fierce rebuttal of "moving the kids" from the other side, but I still think moving the kids has value, regardless of both sides insane use of nearly everything uttered to prove a moral superiority point.

    I was asking Wilfred about moving the kids. It wasn’t about the human shield accusations, and counter-accusations. Use it however you want.

  168. 168.

    JR

    January 1, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    Amazing how this (or any) I/P discussion quickly veered into insanity, but I’ll play too.

    I’m a non-denominational Christian who just reads the Gospels and tries to follow it, and I’d like to say that if America had actually BEEN a Christian nation and turned the other cheek after 9/11 how much better off we would be…

    I would also like to share my observation that Israelis are doing exactly what their religion tells them to do: an eye for an eye. Tit for Tat. Killing for killing. This is the Old Testament.

    Jesus brought the New Testament of forgiveness, mercy, and non-judgment. But Jews (and Right-wing "Christians") do not follow the New Testament, which is actually a hope, and maybe the only one, of solving the I/P dilemma.

    It’s just interesting to me. I am not dissing anyone, I just think it is odd.

  169. 169.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    @Publicola:

    But sure: if Israel bombed the Palestinians out of existence then yeah, that would eliminate the Palestinian threat for once and for all.
    The threat of the hundreds of millions of then-radicalized Arabs and Muslims, however – not so much.

    If I’m reading this right, its only the threat of radicalized Arabs and Muslims that make you think genocide is a bad idea?

  170. 170.

    Garrigus Carraig

    January 1, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    @liberal:

    Interestingly, Israel got its aid originally from the Communist block. First big shipment of war materiel in 1948 was from Czechoslovakia, IIRC. That changed, of course.

    I did not know that. Eventually the Soviets settled on Iraq, Syria & Egypt, and I have heard (from relatives of people involved) that the U.S. was giving covert intelligence/logistical support to Israel in the ’67 war.
    @The Other Steve:

    The US relationship with Israel was pretty apathetic until Carter, and then it became more gung-ho under Reagan.

    Certainly overt U.S. support for Israel during the ’73 war led to the oil embargo. So I would push TOS’s timeline up a bit.

  171. 171.

    Reverend Dennis

    January 1, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    Kicking a tiger in the ass is a malicious and inhuman act of animal cruelty. Anyone who kicks a tiger in the ass should get the electric chair for life.
    I felt left out because I neither favor nor excuse either side in the Israel/Palestine generational disaster.

  172. 172.

    srv

    January 1, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    @kay:

    Who in his RIGHT MIND waits for his enemy to warn him before getting his kids to safety?

    Kay, I agree with you. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why Israeli’s would raise their children in a war zone. What kind of monsters would you have to be?

    To paraphrase Golda – There will be peace when Israeli’s love their children more than they love someone else’s land.

  173. 173.

    Chuck Butcher

    January 1, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    Jumpin’ Jiminey Cricket On A Crutch.
    When the shooting starts the civilians are going to take it in the neck, period. It isn’t a goddam Risk board, there’s armament flying around and ammuntition has no conscience or discrimination.

    I gave Jon Swift this, not because I thought it was my best composition, but it just wasn’t being said.

    Why in the fuck is Israel our "friend?" I understand alliances and I understand that sovereign nations have their own agendas and that where they coincide with ours that we are allies, but this friendship thing evades me. The fact that Israel has been caught spying on us shows that they understand that. It doesn’t make them better or worse than any other nation, it was in their self-interest and fuck ours.

    There is no more moral standing for Israel or Palestine, neither has consistently taken the high road and has no such claim. It is this kind of blame game that allows this to continue, it is engaged in by Israel and Palestine. Each side’s hands are bloody and polluted and both could have stopped at any time.

    You can engage in killing and get more for your trouble; or you can engage in killing until you pound the other into absolute submission. Both options have been tried and failed in this conflict. The third option is extermination.

    Neither side has the impetus to do something other than what they are doing. It takes long time to get that from education or it can be imposed from outside. Everybody wants to fiddle around the edges. Exactly how is Palestine to become a viable entity under Israeli policies and how exactly is Israel to engage in such policies in the face of rockets and suicide bombers? Neither will happen under today’s scenario and that is why it has to come from outside. Outside will not work as long as one or the other is seen a someone’s pet. The settler who shoots gets shot, and they get dismantled, the rocket tossers get shot, rock thowers go to jail, one or 500. The sort of trade that allows functioning society happens, period. Bad actors get rolled up, no matter whose.

    The problem is that it would take a drastic commitment of resources and will and that ain’t gonna happen. This bullshit right here shows exactly why it isn’t gonna happen.

    One other aspect of this shit here, exactly how many here have killed anything more consequential than a spider? Theoretical violence is pretty easy. Seems to me John Cole has spent a bit of time around armament and I know I have.

  174. 174.

    Mnemosyne

    January 1, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    I would also like to share my observation that Israelis are doing exactly what their religion tells them to do: an eye for an eye. Tit for Tat. Killing for killing. This is the Old Testament.

    No, that’s not what "an eye for an eye" means. It means that if someone injures your eye, you’re not allowed to kill them in return — punishment has to be proportional. If you lose an eye, the most you can demand from the other person is that they, too, lose an eye, and after that the issue is ended. It’s meant to avoid the cycle of violence and revenge we’re seeing right now.

    Killing 300 Palestinians in response to rocket fire that doesn’t kill any Israelis directly violates the rule of "an eye for an eye."

  175. 175.

    bago

    January 1, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    At the end of the day, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I never thought I’d toss out Ghandi lines like that, but it’s true. We have an effective enough com-link now. We can send powerful messages by not blowing things up even when we have a damned good reason to. Use it.

    Be a good christian and turn the other motherfucking cheek.

  176. 176.

    Publicola

    January 1, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    @mapaghimagsik:

    If I’m reading this right, its only the threat of radicalized Arabs and Muslims that make you think genocide is a bad idea?

    No – I think genocide is a bad idea, period.

    The Other Steve however said that if Israel wanted to they could commit genocide against the Palestinians, but "for some reason they don’t." I was just pointing out one reason why they don’t – because as a practical matter it’s not a viable option.

    The Israelis and the Palestinians are going to have to learn to live with each other one way or another because neither side is going away any time soon, the fervent wishes and ultimate objectives of wingnuts on both sides of the conflict notwithstanding.

  177. 177.

    Publicola

    January 1, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    @wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:

    Jews kill Palestinian children. Repeat: Jews kill palestinian children.

    Yes, and Arabs kill Israeli children. Repeat: Arabs kill Israeli children.

    So did you have a point?

  178. 178.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    @srv:

    I’m not a big fan of Golda. I credit her with " no negotiation with terrorists" and I can’t define "terrorist".

    In my opinion, neither can anyone else. Not in any way that makes sense, or that is solid, or that doesn’t further one or another political or ideological end.

    I reject the idea that "Arabs only understand violence". That sounds like politically conveniently bullshit sloganeering to me. I start with the idea that they love their kids, as much as anyone else does or doesn’t. That’s why I asked Wilfred about moving them.

  179. 179.

    Mnemosyne

    January 1, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    @kay:

    I start with the idea that they love their kids, as much as anyone else does or doesn’t. That’s why I asked Wilfred about moving them.

    One probable rationale: because they don’t want to leave their children orphans in a non-functioning society. If they did send their kids away and then both parents are killed, who takes those kids in?

  180. 180.

    mapaghimagsik

    January 1, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    @Publicola:

    Thanks for clarifying.

    But it does beg a couple of questions.

    The Other Steve however said that if Israel wanted to they could commit genocide against the Palestinians, but "for some reason they don’t." I was just pointing out one reason why they don’t – because as a practical matter it’s not a viable option.

    Do you think that another reason is that collective punishment is on many levels just wrong, and that there are some things that even freaked out by the years of violence are simply not willing to do?

    If not, do you think that if the rest of the Arab world were not to be radicalized by that genocide or even could be eliminated as a threat even if radicalized that Israel would walk down this road?

    To me, the second option sounds very neocon, and possibly one of the best arguments for locking up neocons and their ilk for the rest of their natural lives.

  181. 181.

    Ash Can

    January 1, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    Yet more evidence that neither side in this conflict truly wants peace.

  182. 182.

    larry birnbaum

    January 1, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    I don’t see your point. Some problems can’t be solved, they can only be managed. If you get sick, you go to the doctor even though it’s only postponing the inevitable.

  183. 183.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Okay. That’s a reason. I asked Wilfred because he told me he lives in the Gulf, and I don’t know anything about actual conditions. I thought his non-answer was weak. I had also read that Hamas were a functioning government, in the sense that they provided services, hence won an election, so that was what was behind the question: what are THEY, Hamas, doing?
    I get the moral condemnation required when not following the Rules of Warfare. I get that. I understand the concept, I should say. I have yet to see it uniformly applied, by any country, including my own. It’s "aspirational", right?

  184. 184.

    Comrade Stuck

    January 1, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    @John Cole:

    Bombing fucking kids is always wrong. Bombing civilians is wrong, even if you warn them. Even if you meant to take out a “target.” Bombing civilians is wrong whether it is done intentionally with inaccurate rockets by Palestinians, bombing civilians is wrong when it is done with laser-guided missiles by the IAF and the targets were just “collateral damage.”

    I agree totally with this. Hamas has become nothing less that a Death Cult for martyrdom. It knows it can’t defeat Israel with feckless rockets, so the only thing left are the tv cameras showing mangled corps of Palestinian children and woman in hopes the world see how evil Israel really is (in their minds) and intervene to make the Israeli state go away, or to inflame muslim Arabia to the point that 200 mill of them will attack and overrun Israel. My only surprise is that other Hamas families didn’t crowd into that house for better effect.

    And the Israeli’s have seemingly lost their minds with frustration and are willing to grant Hamas it’s wish and kill ten Gaza kids for one Hamas leader. And in the process lose big chunks of their soul and humanity, a serious proposition for people with their past in Europe and Elsewhere. It all is so very pathological and sad to be almost incomprehensible. And the one person that could stop it, or at least reduce the violence and mass killing by a crazed Israeli IDF, and Israel proper, is sitting on his hands in the Oval Office. One last bloody campaign for the most bloodsoaked American president since Vietnam. A campaign this time of criminal complacency, if not a degree of sadistic Voyeourism.

    This is the best I can do for evenhandedness and have already stated at length my position on this sorry play of endless death and destruction.

  185. 185.

    kay

    January 1, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    At Kamal Edwan Hospital in Beit Lahiya, in northern Gaza, Mahmoud al-Sheik, 11, was recovering from wounds he received two days before — he thinks from a rocket fired by an Israeli warplane. Even at his age, he is aware of how fighters and civilians are mixed together in Gaza, saying that the bomb was aimed at the house of his neighbor, Salim Zaqout, whom he identified as a member of Hamas.

    “But Zaqout and his family evacuated the house a few days ago,” Mahmoud said. “Can’t Israel see all these houses that are adjacent to Zaqout’s? Now Zaqout’s house is completely destroyed, but so are other houses that have nothing to do with Hamas.

    Right. They’re trying that, then.

  186. 186.

    Publicola

    January 1, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    @mapaghimagsik:

    Do you think that another reason is that collective punishment is on many levels just wrong, and that there are some things that even freaked out by the years of violence are simply not willing to do?

    Yes, I think that is a factor as well.

    If not, do you think that if the rest of the Arab world were not to be radicalized by that genocide or even could be eliminated as a threat even if radicalized that Israel would walk down this road?

    You forgot another reason why I said genocide against the Palestinians is not a viable option – because if Israel did that they would then lose the support of the US, which they need.

    That said, if both Arab and Muslim radicalization and US support were not issues, then, to answer your question, I don’t know if Israel would walk down that road or not.

    I have little doubt that many if not most of the Likudniks and those to their right would want to go down that road, but I also have little doubt that many if not most of the Laborites and those to their left would not. So I think the answer would be which side would win out there, which in turn would depend in large measure on how the Palestinians would act under that "what if" scenario. If Palestinians knew that if they provoked Israel too much that genocide would be a real consequence then I think Fatah and their secular-oriented allies would probably be less violently confrontational, while the Islamist Hamas and their holy warrior allies would probably remain undaunted because they believe they have "god" on their side. How that would play out with respect to which group then got the upper hand in territories is another unknown.

    Which is to say, your "what if" question has too many unknowns that we will never know for me to give you an definite answer about what I think would happen.

  187. 187.

    Laura W

    January 1, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    Doctors Without Borders is in Gaza.
    In case any of us are inclined to donate more than just our good thoughts and opinions.

  188. 188.

    iluvsummr

    January 1, 2009 at 6:49 pm

    @kay: I think that the Irish peace process is relevant here even though many of the circumstances are different. Essentially we need governments that can apply external pressure to both sides in order to allow the moderates on the Israeli and Palestinian sides to gain the upper hand politically. The US can apply that pressure to Israel. Who will do the same for the Palestinians?

    Some years ago, a group of Israeli and Palestinian mothers who’d lost children toured the US giving their own unique perspective on the crisis and what it would take to solve it. Unsurprisingly, "an eye for an eye" was not their philosophy: they knew first-hand what it felt like to lose a child. It seems like those voices keep getting drowned out, more’s the shame.

    I’ll admit I feel a great deal of pity for the Palestinians/underdogs – I had a colleague (emergency room doc) go volunteer there. He witnessed someone in an ambulance almost die because an 18 year old soldier with no medical training had to make a judgment about whether the person was faking (i.e., potential terrorist) or really ill. My colleague couldn’t deal with the situation for long and returned to the US fully determined to ignore both sides of the conflict in order to stay sane. Sigh.

  189. 189.

    spot check billy

    January 1, 2009 at 7:39 pm

    The US relationship with Israel was pretty apathetic until Carter, and then it became more gung-ho under Reagan.

    I think you misspelled either Nixon or Kissinger.

  190. 190.

    Cain

    January 1, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    I was thinking about this a little. The problem with this discussion is that people keep throwing stuff in while trying to make a point to raise the hairs of the person their arguing against. Wilfred is a good example of that. It’s all heat with some outrage thrown in. It convinces no one, but then you never know it could all be part of the plan.

    If Palestinians were interested in getting the upperhand against Israel they need to change the conversation. Shake things up. If they are willing to die for the cause then they should try Satyagraha. It’ll work against Israel effectively.

    Swarm into the settlements, and sit there. Unmoving. Take every abuse thrown at them, replace injured people with fresh recruits, do it continously. Make a nuisance of themselves. Don’t let them work, block everything. Take the oxygen away from the settlers. Sit in the roads, stop all traffic. No army can fight such a threat because of the outrage shown by all of you on the moral implications of killing unarmed people. It’ll drive Israel crazy. It’ll prove a point to the Arabs on which is more powerful.

    Make it the biggest spectacle in the middle east. Make speeches, embarass the Israelis and the Americans. Ask to be bombed. Instigate and provoke but do not fight back. Channel that fanaticsm this way. They still get into heaven defending Islam. They’ll be honor in their deaths. Peaceful struggle is powerful against a modern aggressor IS powerful but it’s much harder than using a weapon because it requires an entire nation to mobilize in that fashion.

    cain

  191. 191.

    Phoenician in a time of Romans

    January 1, 2009 at 8:45 pm

    Personally, I’d like to see a citizenship drive among Arab residents of East Jerusalem and other under-represented groups. It would have a remarkable effect on Israeli politics.

    Gee, do you think the Israeli habit of shooting potential Arab troublemakers as "terrorists" might have something to do with the lack of leadership here?

  192. 192.

    shel

    January 1, 2009 at 9:22 pm

    Most of you folks fail to do your homework.
    Israel has made many concessions and and received nothing in return except more violence. How do you have peace with people whose only goal is to kill you. The terrorists fire their mortars and rockets from residential yards. Is Israel just supposed to just bleed out in silence?
    Remember that when Israel unilaterally left Gaza, all of the commercial money making businesses were left intact. The first thing that those morons did when the IDF left was burn down everything. Remember that their game plan is to kill all of the infidals. That includes you.

  193. 193.

    rachel

    January 1, 2009 at 9:33 pm

    @Cain: After what happened to Rachel Corrie, I’d guess they’d kill the unarmed Palestinians anyway and then claim the killings were all accidents.

  194. 194.

    John Cole

    January 1, 2009 at 9:56 pm

    Israel has made many concessions and and received nothing in return except more violence. How do you have peace with people whose only goal is to kill you. The terrorists fire their mortars and rockets from residential yards. Is Israel just supposed to just bleed out in silence?

    That is undeniable. What is also undeniable is that the moment Israel left gaza, the number of attacks skyrocketed.

    The point, though, is will this current operation do anything? Do you think they solved problems today killing that man and 9 civilians? Or did they just create more?

  195. 195.

    Publicola

    January 1, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    @shel:

    Israel has made many concessions

    If Israel is so serious about real peace with the Palestinians, then why won’t they stop settlement expansion in the West Bank?

  196. 196.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    So did you have a point?

    Why, yes, I do. When Jews kill Arab children IT IS PAID FOR BY AMERICAN TAXPAYER MONEY. That’s the point.

  197. 197.

    MarkusB

    January 1, 2009 at 10:54 pm

    @Cain: If they are willing to die for the cause then they should try Satyagraha.

    This, assuming there are enough individuals with that attitude. I’m guessing it takes much smaller numbers to launch sporadic attacks than to succeed at something like this.

  198. 198.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 10:55 pm

    I had also read that Hamas were a functioning government, in the sense that they provided services, hence won an election, so that was what was behind the question: what are THEY, Hamas, doing?

    Gaza gas been unders siege for 16 months, and a month long complete blockade before this attactk. The Jews would not even let currency into the country during eid – a time when Muslims buy presents for the children they don’t love.

    The entire US/israel strategy is to undermine Hamas, which did provide services when supplies could enter, and promote their Fatah puppet abu mazin and the execrable Dahlan.

    That’s why they haven’t been able to provide services. It’s like asking the New Orleans city government why they could not provide services during Katrina.

    Now start asking the israeli apologists some fucking questions.

  199. 199.

    Publicola

    January 1, 2009 at 11:03 pm

    @wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:

    When Jews kill Arab children IT IS PAID FOR BY AMERICAN TAXPAYER MONEY. That’s the point.

    If the Palestinians were to respond to Israeli occupation and other injustices with committed non-violent protest instead of suicide bombings and related barbarisms against Israeli civilians, then I believe Americans would be far less inclined to allow their tax dollars to support the killing of Palestinian civilians.

    But if history is any guide here (and unfortunately it is) Palestinian wingnuts – which includes Hamas – will continue to commit violent barbarisms against Israeli civilians and so Americans will continue to look the other way about civilian casualties on the Palestinian side.

    And so it goes.

  200. 200.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 11:08 pm

    Wilfred is a good example of that. It’s all heat with some outrage thrown in. It convinces no one, but then you never know it could all be part of the plan.

    No, I challenge your narrative, and you call me names. Jews deliberately tageted and and knowingly murdered Palestinian children. That’s a fact, the rest is commentary. To a person, every one of the Jewish apologists rationalized, defended or ignored that fact. Like you just did, for instance. Here’s another fact:

    Not one of the nearly 450 presidents of American colleges and universities who prominently denounced an effort by British academics to boycott Israeli universities in September 2007 have raised their voice in opposition to Israel’s bombardment of the Islamic University of Gaza earlier this week. Lee C. Bollinger, president of Columbia University, who organized the petition, has been silent, as have his co-signatories from Princeton, Northwestern, and Cornell Universities, and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Most others who signed similar petitions, like the 11,000 professors from nearly 1,000 universities around the world, have also refrained from expressing their outrage at Israel’s attack on the leading university in Gaza. The artfully named Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, which organized the latter appeal, has said nothing about the assault.

    While the extent of the damage to the Islamic University, which was hit in six separate airstrikes, is still unknown, recent reports indicate that at least two major buildings were targeted, a science laboratory and the Ladies’ Building, where female students attended classes. There were no casualties, as the university was evacuated when the Israeli assault began on Saturday.

    No heat, no outrage, just a fact. Care to comment?

  201. 201.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 11:14 pm

    Americans would be far less inclined to allow their tax dollars to support the killing of Palestinian civilians

    Do you think that this sort of consciousness is present in Americans? Idon’t think so – if it did, I’d renounce my citizenship.

    I actually think that Americans are better than that. It’s the only reason I waste my time on this blog. If one American stands back for a moment and considers the reasoning of what you just posted, it’s worth the effort.

  202. 202.

    Publicola

    January 1, 2009 at 11:32 pm

    @wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:

    Do you think that this sort of consciousness is present in Americans?

    Americans, as our back-to-back election of Bush and then Obama demonstrate, are a complex people. We are also decidedly not a monolithic entity, any more than the Israelis are or the Palestinians are.

    So to answer your question I say without doubt that this sort of consciousness is present in many Americans, yes. Is it enough Americans to tip the scales here? I believe so, and I am even more optimistic on that score now that we’ve finally repudiated Bush and the American neocons’ policies.

    What I also believe, however, is again that if Palestinians continue to regularly commit acts of barbarism like suicide bombings of Israeli civilians then Americans are going to keep looking the other way about Palestinian civilian casualties.

    Again so it goes.

  203. 203.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 1, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    What I also believe, however, is again that if Palestinians continue to regularly commit acts of barbarism like suicide bombings of Israeli civilians then Americans are going to keep looking the other way about Palestinian civilian casualties

    It’s interesting to read this sort of framing. On the one hand you include the usual disclaimers that it’s not all of this or that, but at the same time you throw in: If Palestinians continue to, etc.

    Americans are always presented with a cause and its effect -the israel line. An alternative cause and effecr never reaches American ears.

    That’s the problem. Here there are literally hundreds of satellite sources, including CNN and the BBC. Americans are bombarded with the same idea you just said: If Palestinians stop this, israel will do this.

    We look at it differently and would like very much to show you things from the side of the tanks.

    I say over and over again: Go to Gaza, or Ramallah, or Nablus. See the world through the eyes of a Palestinian – then decide if your money is well spent.

    Until the, you live in a cocoon.

  204. 204.

    Publicola

    January 2, 2009 at 12:09 am

    @wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:

    It’s interesting to read this sort of framing. On the one hand you include the usual disclaimers that it’s not all of this or that, but at the same time you throw in: If Palestinians continue to, etc.

    Americans are always presented with a cause and its effect -the israel line. An alternative cause and effecr never reaches American ears….

    We look at it differently and would like very much to show you things from the side of the tanks.

    I’ve studied this conflict in great detail and am well aware of both sides of this issue. Read my comments in the other recent middle east threads – you’ll see that I can and do look at this conflict from the Palestinian side as well. (And for doing so a guy with serious reading comprehension issues repeatedly accused me of being an anti-Israel liar.)

    For that matter, read a recent comment I made in this thread, to some guy whose one-sided rhetoric says Israel has made all these concessions in an effort to suggest that the Israelis are serious about peace but the Palestinians aren’t. I asked him in response (no reply from him yet):

    If Israel is so serious about real peace with the Palestinians, then why won’t they stop settlement expansion in the West Bank?

    That too, and as I’m sure you are well aware, is a clear example of cause and effect. Because Israel is dreaming if they think peace will come while continuing the expansion of their settlement land grab/occupation the West Bank.

    But it goes both ways. The Palestinians are also dreaming if they think barbaric acts are going to get the Israelis to quit Israel/Palestine, or that said barbaric acts will somehow get the Americans to stop supporting Israel, including with respect to Israeli actions that cause Palestinian civilian casualties.

    It’s the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict Blame Game, where neither side is really serious about peace and they continually blame the anti-peace actions of the other side for their own lack of serious resolve to achieve peace.

    And again so it goes.

  205. 205.

    Comrade Stuck

    January 2, 2009 at 12:38 am

    And for doing so a guy with serious reading comprehension issues repeatedly accused me of being an anti-Israel liar.)

    You are doing better today Pepsicola. Just don’t fuck it up/

  206. 206.

    LanceThruster

    January 2, 2009 at 12:48 am

    2nd attempt to post. John says it is because of akismet.

    In the words of Fredy Perlman:

    "The trick of declaring war against the armed resistance and then attacking the resisters’ unarmed kin as well as the sur­rounding population with the most gruesome products of Death-Science — this trick is not new. American Pioneers were pioneers in this too; they made it standard practice to declare war on indigenous warriors and then to murder and burn villages with only women and children in them. This is already modern war, what we know as war against civilian populations; it has also been called, more candidly, mass murder or genocide.

    Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised that the perpetrators of a Pogrom portray themselves as the victims, in the present case as victims of the Holocaust.

    Herman Melville noticed over a century ago, in his analysis of the metaphysics of Indian-hating, that those who made a full-time profession of hunting and murdering indigenous people of this continent always made themselves appear, even in their own eyes, as the victims of manhunts."

    From: ANTI-SEMITISM & THE BEIRUT POGROM

  207. 207.

    Phoenician in a time of Romans

    January 2, 2009 at 1:40 am

    If the Palestinians were to respond to Israeli occupation and other injustices with committed non-violent protest instead of suicide bombings and related barbarisms against Israeli civilians,

    Then they’d just get run over like Rachel Corrie.

  208. 208.

    Cain

    January 2, 2009 at 2:39 am

    @MarkusB:

    This, assuming there are enough individuals with that attitude. I’m guessing it takes much smaller numbers to launch sporadic attacks than to succeed at something like this.

    Yes, as a nation that’s the one way to get the job done. But they don’t seem to have a unifying goal or a unifying leader that will do that. Just factions most who are selfish and just want power.

    To do what I’m proposing requires an entire people to mobilize.

    cain

  209. 209.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 2:53 am

    Then they’d just get run over like Rachel Corrie.

    Darwin Awards don’t count.

  210. 210.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 2:59 am

    We look at it differently and would like very much to show you things from the side of the tanks

    And you might even get taken seriously if the bombs hadn’t blown up shopping malls and ice cream parlors and driven out the Israeli parties that were trying to negotiate with the Palestinians in favor of Likud.

    Admittedly, this was done through the tact approval of the PLO which seemed to think that this would encourage Israel to settle for peace faster rather then convince Israelis that Palestinians were never going to settle for peace until the last Israeli child was dead.

    So yeah.

    Hamas is the best ally Likud has ever had. Way to discredit those Israeli doves.

  211. 211.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:02 am

    It begins with an outside power which happens to supply a few percent of native GDP to one of the parties of the conflict—-the stronger one, actually—-no longer giving that party aid, thus driving up the cost of its choice of its decision to occupy lands populated by the weaker party.

    Clap for ponies!

    We supply both sides directly and indirectly.

    But that would require some research.

    So yeah.

  212. 212.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:04 am

    do. When Jews kill Arab children IT IS PAID FOR BY AMERICAN TAXPAYER MONEY. That’s the point.
    lockquote>

    Remember, this is wilfred world: Israeli children being murdered by Palestinians don’t count!

  213. 213.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 2, 2009 at 3:06 am

    Darwin Awards don’t count

    Some Jewish humor for you – Did you hear the one about the non-violent protestor gets run over by a tractor? It’s a non stop laugh riot.

    How about some Holocaust jokes?

    Hamas is the best ally Likud has ever had. Way to discredit those Israeli doves

    Now it’s Likud. You have to pity the poor Phule – his material has run out. Bbbbbbbut isn’t Likud the elected representatives of the Jewish State? Yes. but it was all the fault of Hamas.

  214. 214.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:14 am

    2. How many Israeli troops are involved in U.S. peacekeeping operations?
    3. What enemies of the United States are also enemies of Israel?
    4. How much intelligence does the United States receive from Israel about the military capabilities of nations in the region?
    5. Name one action—any action—whether military or diplomatic, which Israel has taken within the past thirty years that served U.S. interests rather than Israeli interests

    2: Consider what the implication of Israeli peacekeepers in Iraq and Afghanistan, two MUSLIM countries, would do to us. Then thank your lucky stars that they figured this out first.

    3: Iran, admittedly that is America’s fault in the first place. Syria too, again this one is our bad (Fuck you so much Bush!). So yeah, please keep your facts straight.

    4: Unknown. When one of us gets security access…we wouldn’t be able to tell you anyway.

    5: They initially held off of retaliation strikes way back at the start of the current round of violence almost 10 years ago. Their government leaders took a lot of domestic flack for that and wounded up getting ousted in favor of the hard right who promised retaliation and crackdowns for all the suicide bombings they’d endured. Also, the regular horsetrading between nations.

  215. 215.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:20 am

    Bbbbbbbut isn’t Likud the elected representatives of the Jewish State? Yes. but it was all the fault of Hamas

    Yes Wilfred, who can forget the bloody malls and streets of Israel as Hamas suicide bombers killed hundreds of innocent civilians.

    It’s not like this had any effect at all on Israeli voters.

    Of course Likud, which had been in the minority, would naturally rise to power without any help whatsover from the panic in the Israeli public over the wave of violence that killed them day after day.

    So following wilfred’s new logic: Likud = Israel.

    Therefore Hamas =Palestinians.

    Or is it only Palestinians who are individuals with differences and Israeli who are faceless Borg?

    What are the rules in this game of pretend?

  216. 216.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:26 am

    We have groups in the US that have killed far more people—and we haven’t layed waste to their home states y

    Trying to compare domestic groups in the US to a military government that deliberately attacks civilians as a military strategy is the kind of stupid that takes effort to maintain.

  217. 217.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:28 am

    . The latest rocket attack that spurred the Israeli attacks: 0 killed. I’m with ya all the way up until we try to portray the rocket attacks as anything other than hugely ineffective

    Fuck you for a liar.

    4 dead, 19 wounded from the rockets.

    Also these things are hitting deeper inside of Israel.

    Military wise, they may suck wind tactically.

    For terror purposes, they do the job quite well.

    So yeah. Fuck you again for being a lying asshole.

  218. 218.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 2, 2009 at 3:41 am

    Therefore Hamas =Palestinians.

    And the pieces of shit that knowingly murdered palestinian children = the jews.

    Now we’re getting somewhere. Proceed

  219. 219.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:41 am

    Glib responses like “they should elect better leadership” are provided when you are talking about a million + people living in squalor, ignorance, with staggering poverty, no education, zero quality of life, no food, and constantly humiliated. Somehow that is acceptable for some people here, when the vast majority of the people in Gaza suffering are there simply because of who they were born to

    Cole, it’s a bit more complicated then that.

    They were tied together to Israel, which supplied jobs, electricity and water to them.

    I remember before the current round of sieges and crackdowns began. I was furious with the Palestinians when they started the suicide bombings, the lynchings and the break ins and murders because I knew what was going to happen next.

    The checkpoints went up, crossings were cut off, and all of those Palestinians working in Israel suddenly found themselves unemployed.

    Palestinian emergency vehicles were caught smuggling weapons and combatants.

    Israel started destroying the homes of suicide bomber families, restricted supplies to Palestinians and started taking out infrastructure.

    Yes, it was wrong of them. But they were scared. Worse, they were scared into the welcoming arms of Likud aka, the Republican party.

    So yeah, they’re still trapped in that 2002 "90% approval Bush" moment. Worse, their opposition parties are even more incompetent then the Democrats here.

    So yeah.

    Let he who is without sin….

  220. 220.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:43 am

    Now we’re getting somewhere. Proceed

    Therefor the only solution is for the USA to take over the region and kick everyone else off. /golfclap

  221. 221.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:43 am

    Now we’re getting somewhere. Proceed

    Therefor the only solution is for the USA to take over the region and kick everyone else off. /golfclap

  222. 222.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 2, 2009 at 3:49 am

    You really have to pity the Phule – his handlers left him hanging this morning:

    2: Consider what the implication of Israeli peacekeepers in Iraq and Afghanistan, two MUSLIM countries, would do to us. Then thank your lucky stars that they figured this out first.

    3: Iran, admittedly that is America’s fault in the first place. Syria too, again this one is our bad (Fuck you so much Bush!). So yeah, please keep your facts straight.

    4: Unknown. When one of us gets security access…we wouldn’t be able to tell you anyway.

    5: They initially held off of retaliation strikes way back at the start of the current round of violence almost 10 years ago. Their government leaders took a lot of domestic flack for that and wounded up getting ousted in favor of the hard right who promised retaliation and crackdowns for all the suicide bombings they’d endured. Also, the regular horsetrading between nations.

    2. Implications? They already fucking hate you. Iraqi kids yell ‘yahudi’ at American soldiers.

    3. official aipac American= israel conflation.

    4. NIE on Iran’s nuclear capabilities/plans thoroughly repdudiated the official israel story. How about Rahm? He certainly will be passing American secrets to his country.

    5. WTF?

  223. 223.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:52 am

    ? Do you think they solved problems today killing that man and 9 civilians? Or did they just create more?

    I think whichever military commander authorized the strike needs to be courtmartialed for criminal stupidity.

    This was as fucking stupid as the bomb that wiped out 15 civilians to kill that other Hamas leader way back in early 2000.

    I can probably guess how badly Israel wanted him dead, but dropping a bomb wasn’t the right way to do it.

    But yeah, the US can’t say shit about this without looking like a hypocrite.

    Not after that strike trying to kill Saddam where he wasn’t even there.

    So yeah.

  224. 224.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:54 am

    5. WTF?

    Israeli prime minsters did not begin with Ariels Sharon.

    But then again, you have a very short and selective memory, wilfred.

  225. 225.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 3:56 am

    You can’t see that one side has all the guns

    There are 4 kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, statistics and wilfred.

  226. 226.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 2, 2009 at 3:57 am

    But yeah, the US can’t say shit about this without looking like a hypocrite.

    Not after that strike trying to kill Saddam where he wasn’t even there

    Fair play’s a jewel and that’s exactly right. We have done a hundred times worse and the shits in both political parties have never said or done a goddamned thing about it.

  227. 227.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 4:08 am

    It’s not possible to always avoid killing children, and in some circumstances, civilian casualties are warranted in pursuit of a greater good.

    Not quite true.

    In this particular case, it was very very wrong. War Crime wrong in fact after consideration.

    Had this guy been shooting at Israelis from his home or otherwise been a clear active military danger, then yeah, they’d be cleared to vape the house and it would be the asshole’s fault if kids were in there even after Israel tried to warn them away.

    But doing it just to get at him was wrong. Sniper, rig his car to blow, poison him…all of those targeting him specifically would have been fine. Not an indiscriminate method like bombing or missile strikes.

    This was an Israeli fuckup.

  228. 228.

    Duke of Earl

    January 2, 2009 at 7:54 am

    @Publicola:

    Darwin Awards don’t count.

    And if an entire nation were to do this it wouldn’t be a Darwin Award, just on a national scale? Should the Palestinian people take that risk?

    Should the Israeli people take it?

    I think the entire argument boils down to, what is the acceptable collateral damage from an attempt to defeat your enemy militarily?

    It is the precision of Israeli military strikes that supporters of Israel say makes its operations legitimate and understandable.

    At what level of imprecision do military operations generate enough collateral damage that they are automatically unacceptable to any moral being?

    If you hope to defeat your enemy with operations that are going to involve killing a certain number of their innocent civilians then what is the acceptable number beyond which it is no longer morally permissible to do so? Is it a specific number or is it a percentage?

  229. 229.

    kay

    January 2, 2009 at 8:04 am

    @TenguPhule:

    Well, they’re losing me, Israelis. I’m one voter, and it’s a big country, but they’re losing me. I thought Wilfred and Co did a poor job explaining why Hamas wasn’t acting to prevent civilian casualties, but it turns out they are, without success.

    Wilfred: I read about the attempts of the Palestinians to evactuate in the NYTimes, so it’s out there.

    If we’re honest, we know why they’re using air strikes, right? And trumpeting the precision of those air strikes? Because they don’t want to use ground troops and suffer casualties, because that’s a political problem. We know that, because it’s the same in the US. The political problems start when the casualties start.

    I recognize Israel’s right to defend. What I’d appreciate is less moral posturing and less bullshit.

  230. 230.

    Observer

    January 2, 2009 at 8:40 am

    @ John Cole

    But that does not absolve Israel of bombing a house with kids in it, even if they warned him. Can you not understand how both are wrong.Bombing fucking kids is always wrong. Bombing civilians is wrong, even if you warn them. Even if you meant to take out a “target.” Bombing civilians is wrong whether it is done intentionally with inaccurate rockets by Palestinians, bombing civilians is wrong when it is done with laser-guided missiles by the IAF and the targets were just “collateral damage.”Seriously, what is wrong with all of you?

    You do understand the implications of your comment right? All Hamas has to do is to use human shields to surround their leaders, their tunnels, and their weapons to have carte blanche to attack as often as they want with no repercussions other than a stern word?

    Certainly it’s a terrible tragic and unnecessary thing. But it is the repeated conscious decision of these men to knowingly put themselves and the innocents outside of world law and the Geneva conventions. The only choices are on a sliding scale of tragedy.

    The average Palestinians are indeed an oppressed and terrorized people, more so by their own "leaders" and by their Islamic neighbors than by Israel.

  231. 231.

    kay

    January 2, 2009 at 9:16 am

    @Observer:

    Two choices, bad or WORSE ? Pick ONE. You sound just like President Bush. Of course, there are more choices than just two, and that’s the real measure of leaders, right? Those who don’t present limited options to advance a political goal are BETTER, because that’s HONEST.

    "But there is pressure within Israel for the government to continue its campaign, and perhaps topple Hamas altogether. That would almost certainly require a ground operation, which would be likely to raise the death toll substantially on both sides.

    "There is no way to take Hamas out without going into Gaza. The problem is the price," said Yaakov Amidror, a retired Israeli major general who headed the military’s research and assessment division. "My feeling is that we should do it. All the other players in the region are wondering why we are hesitating if we are so strong."

  232. 232.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 2, 2009 at 9:51 am

    Certainly it’s a terrible tragic and unnecessary thing. But it is the repeated conscious decision of these men to knowingly put themselves and the innocents outside of world law and the Geneva conventions.

    You mean the israeli leadership, right? The one that has repeatedly violated Geneva conventions – most notably in ongoing collective punishment, blockades, extra-judicial assassinaton, etc.

    israel is a gangster state. Forgetting its long litany of crimes against civilians in Lebanon, Syria and forever Palestine its apologists are now reduced to explaining away the knowing murder of children and the bombing of a University.

    Wake up Americans and wash your hands of this shitty little country and its gangsterism.

  233. 233.

    wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian

    January 2, 2009 at 9:58 am

    The average Palestinians are indeed an oppressed and terrorized people, more so by their own "leaders" and by their Islamic neighbors than by Israel.

    Textbook. Dahlan, abu Mazin et al. are israeli stooges, as every child in Palestine knows – that’s why their still alive. The energy and money spent by the United States in maintaining corrrupt Arab regimes who support israel – the pig Mubarak, who has thrown thousands of members of Ikhwan into jail, and the Hashemite dumpling being the most notable.

    Palestinians endured years of Arafat, the Western puppet whose wife lived in splendor in Paris while the israelis blockaded the West Bank and Gaza.

    You’re disseminated bullshit. Anybody willing to think for themselves knows that any leadership pushed by the israelis has been corrupted by them – nothing will ever reach the Palestinian people through them.

  234. 234.

    Comrade Stuck

    January 2, 2009 at 10:27 am

    @wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:

    You really Norwegian Wilf, you sound more Swedish to me. But what do I know.

  235. 235.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Palestinians endured years of Arafat, the Western puppet whose wife lived in splendor in Paris while the israelis blockaded the West Bank and Gaza.

    And yet there are no Palestinians rushing over to kill her.

    Dahlan, abu Mazin et al. are israeli stooges, as every child in Palestine knows – that’s why their still alive.

    Yes, that explains it all! Palestinian leaders and Arab leaders are really Israeli stooges, that’s why no Palestinian tries to kill them, unlike say a Palestinian Grandmother who must obviously be an Israeli spy, therefore she deserves to be tortured to death and left out on the street as a warning to others.

    The wingnut is strong in you, wilfred.

  236. 236.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 11:46 am

    israel is a gangster state.

    So the new rule is, Palestinians are all individuals who should not be subject to collective punishment but Israel is a collective borg and all Israelis should be subjective to collective punishment?

  237. 237.

    TenguPhule

    January 2, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Well, they’re losing me, Israelis. I’m one voter, and it’s a big country, but they’re losing me.

    I know, ever since Sharon keeled over from a stroke, the Israeli leadership have been asshats.

    Likud’s leaders deserve a place on the wall right next to our Republicans.

    But yeah, after the all the shit Bush got this country into, who are we to try and complain about somebody else?

    I mean shit, we’re getting lectures on human rights from China and Russia.

  238. 238.

    Publicola

    January 2, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    @TenguPhule:

    ever since Sharon keeled over from a stroke, the Israeli leadership have been asshats.
    Likud’s leaders deserve a place on the wall right next to our Republicans.

    All Likud leaders have been asshats, including Sharon.

    Likud and the American neocons are very much ideological brethren, with the Likud having the added advantage of having had top leaders who had been actual (non-state) terrorists.

    But yeah, after the all the shit Bush got this country into, who are we to try and complain about somebody else?

    All too sadly true. What the Israelis do with our money however is our business and directly related to our national security. Instead of complaining — or sitting here incorrectly thinking there’s nothing we as Americans can do, or that it’s not our business — we should put conditions on our "aid" to Israel.

    That position is of course currently political suicide here in the U.S. Hopefully J Street, the new American "political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement" lobbying group which was created to be an alternative to the Likud-leaning AIPAC, will make difference on that front.

    http://www.jstreet.org/about/about-us

  239. 239.

    SGEW

    January 2, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Hopefully J Street, the new American "political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement" lobbying group which was created to be an alternative to the Likud-leaning AIPAC, will make difference on that front.

    Haven’t you heard? J-Street is objectively Anti-Israel. At least, according to Noah Pollack at Commentary, so you know it has to be true.

  240. 240.

    Publicola

    January 2, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    @SGEW:

    Haven’t you heard? J-Street is objectively Anti-Israel. At least, according to Noah Pollack at Commentary, so you know it has to be true.

    Hadn’t heard, but I’m not at all surprised. Just as those who opposed Bush & the neocons’ agenda were objectively pro-terrorist. At least according to Ann Coulter, so you know it must be true.

  241. 241.

    Publicola

    January 2, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    @kay:

    I recognize Israel’s right to defend. What I’d appreciate is less moral posturing and less bullshit.

    In his book "From Beirut to Jerusalem" Tom Friedman talks about his personal path to (semi-) disillusionment with Israel, after having lived there and in Lebanon. Related quote:

    It was the Israelis’ pretense that I found tiresome – their self-delusions that somehow they were always behaving in purely legal and morally upright ways while their enemies, the Palestinians, were simply vile terrorists beyond the pale of civilization. The truth was, each side understood that they were in a war for communal survival. One side had knives and pistols; the other had secret agents and courts. While each side cried out to the world how evil the other was, when they looked one another in the eye… they said something different: I will do whatever I have to to survive. Have no doubt about it.

    Friedman blew it with respect to the Iraq war, but in my opinion his take on and coverage of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has always been dead-on. For those without the background on the conflict but want to read about it I recommend "From Beirut to Jerusalem" as a great place to start – although it’s now a bit dated it is well-written and provides a great overview of the conflict.

  242. 242.

    Darkrose

    January 2, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    @Incertus:

    And I’m ready for the response to be "if you won’t play nice, I’ll take the toy and break it so no one gets to have it."

    That’s been my feeling for years. Both sides continue to act like badly behaved children and should be treated as such by the rest of the world. Unfortunately, they’re heavily armed children.

  243. 243.

    Mylegacy

    January 3, 2009 at 2:24 am

    Hate and Blood to the Knees…

    There I was, hating. Real hate, the rich kind that curdles the soul and turns the heart to rock. I had my sword and it was red. Red flowed all around me – blood to the knees. We’ll win this thing I thought, if just…if just…we can get that blood a little higher.

    I looked across the room and there holding his sword high above his head stood my adversary. He yelled at me, "You have killed my wife and my children!" I yelled back, "As you have mine."

    We charged. The blood rose just a little higher. As we fell into the red another two came. "You!" one yelled, "You are my enemy!" "As I am yours!" yelled the other.

    Hate, blood, yelling. Another two into the red.

    End? No, the blood’s not high enough – yet – more still seek it’s warmth.

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