I didn’t pay attention last week when Marty Peretz seemingly lost what was left of his mind, but in a post attempting to downplay the suffering in Gaza, he blurted out the following:
Arabic is a language easily taken to exaggeration and hyperbole. The easy use of the word genocide is an instance of this Arab habit. There is no genocide in Sudan but there is in the Strip. Sorry, I had it in reverse. This lying also extends to details that can be quickly checked by reporters who don’t. Would you not think that, with the hysteria about starvation, you’d see some bloated bellies on the TV? Instead, you see healthy children and strong young men in the rituals of resistance.
And sneakers. You have to look closely at the sneakers, seemingly new and, of course, costly.
Yes. We must look at their sneakers.
Now if, in fact, the aid that Peretz lists is actually in place, this is objectively a good thing, but I have no way of verifying it. Other reports would seem to suggest that things are far worse than Peretz would let on.
But what stands out is the shoe remark. That is not something that would be uttered by someone with a clear and rational perspective, and is instead the kind of gibberish you would expect from people suffering from the fevered irrationality of pure hatred. Especially in light of reports like this:
Eight Palestinians were killed on Friday, including five children in the ongoing Israeli intensive airstrikes on the Gaza Strip for the seventh consecutive day, doctors and witnesses said.
Palestinian witnesses and medics said that in the most recent Israeli airstrikes carried out on Friday afternoon on a house east of the southern Gaza Strip city of Khan Younis, three children were killed and eight civilians wounded.
I wonder what kind of shoes they were wearing, because if they were new and costly, they probably had it coming.
I can not say this enough- it is untenable for Israel to live under constant rocket and mortar attack, and it is undeniable that the attacks have skyrocketed in recent months. It is also morally reprehensible for these attacks to be launched from schools, mosques, and hospitals, and the use of human shields is disgusting, and Hamas is now reported to be urging the continuation of suicide bombings. Having said that, I can not figure out how the answer is to just blow up said human shields and make dismissive comments about the suffering of innocents and snide remarks about their tennis shoes.
Nothing good is coming of this.
lee
I think your block quotes are messed up.
4tehlulz
Marty Peretz had a mind to lose?
Marty’s just using the same logic as those who begrudge poor people who have the occasional nice thing.
"Well they have a TV, so obviously they don’t need assistance and deserve to starve," ignoring the fact that maybe someone else gave them the TV, sneakers, etc.
Dork
Is it possible that they just keep recycling the few good pairs of shoes off the dead bodies and onto the live ones? Repeat after each airstrike? It would then appear that all the dead people were wearing the fancy gym shoes.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
yeah, you remember this
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18058725/
I don’t remember how to link here.
The Moar You Know
Guys in East San Diego & National City (to use some examples near to me) and in slums all around this country frequently have the nicest damn brand-new tennis shoes I’ve ever seen. They’re also well fed – usually too much so.
It doesn’t change the fact that their lives are literally hell on Earth in most ways.
The Moar You Know
Awww, fuck, I tripped the mod filter with my comment about footwear. Be careful, folks.
Comrade Stuck
Well, now all we need is Holy JoeMentum to inspect the rooftops in Gaza for a healthy number of satellite dishes, and then we can confirm the Palestinian’s there are fit as fiddles.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Regarding the human shield meme now being disseminated by the israelis and their apologists, here and on the news, it’s interesting that the story I link to uses language like ‘moral dilemma’ to semi-justify what is a long-time tactic used by the israelis in Gaza and the West Bank.
Just remember Cole, there is one more side to this story, in all its facets.
SGEW
So. Marty Peretz walks down the street, sees a homeless man who’s begging for change, notices that he’s wearing "costly" sneakers, and eschews giving him money. After all, if that beggar can buy sneakers, he can obviously buy food. Or, um, sell the sneakers to buy food, and, uh, get cheaper sandals or something. Yeah.
Ok. I see this. It’s actually not that bad (i.e., sure it’s a dickish thing to do, but so what?).
However, there is an important distinction that Marty failed to recognize: The Palestinians cannot buy food because there is no food there. That is why they are FUCKING STARVING. Even if every person in the region sold their fucking footwear at full value on eBay, or something, they would have no food to buy BECAUSE THERE IS NO FOOD TO BUY.
Holy shit, this guy is dumb/evil.
joe from Lowell
Martin Peretz is nuts.
In an essay about the firing of Lawrence Summers from Harvard, he blamed the dismissal on "anti-Jew animus among the Harvard faculty."
I swear to God I’m not making this up.
sparky
i’m surprised you still don’t have him in the "mock" category. Glenzilla nailed him a while ago.
John Cole
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian: Wilfred, you are part of the problem. From where I sit, you are every bit as fevered and irrational as Marty Peretz.
Mention the use of human shields to mask attacks, and rather than acknowledge it is wrong, you tell us ‘HEY THE ISRAELIS DO IT TO.”
Tit for tat.
Using human shields is wrong. Killing civilians is wrong.
Whether it be done by Hamas or Hezbollah or Saddam Hussein or the IDF or the American Military.
John Cole
@sparky: The people in the monitor and mock are clueless, silly, and prone to saying stupid things and embarrassing themselves.
Marty Peretz appears to be sick.
There is a difference.
p.a.
I have a feeling Mr. Peretz would object if I took his generalization further and made the stupidly racist comment that all Semitic peoples exaggerate and all Semitic languages encourage hyperbole, not just Arabs and Arabic.
Comrade Stuck
@John Cole:
It’s no use to reason with wilford when he gets this way. The outrage afterburners are on full throttle and we can expect a complete burnout soon, in a shower of red hot rhetoric that would make any drunken sailor blush.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Oh, I agree. But unless I point out that the israelis do it as well people assume you meant only Palestinians. My mistake, John.
Did you even know about it? Or did you assume that human shield scumbaggery was somehow inherent and exlusive to Palestinians.
I’m curious.
sparky
@John Cole: fair categorization, though i view both types as harmful. mocking can sometimes be a good way to demolish someone’s legitimacy if you can’t go at them directly. it speaks volumes about the state of discourse in this country that his viewpoint is not openly rejected.
John S.
That is the very underpinning of moral relativism, and I fucking despise it. We are all responsible for our actions, and the actions of others have absolutely NO bearing on that. That is what morality is really about. If you kill someone — even in self-defense — you are still guilty of taking a life. Since human beings are not equipped to judge the hearts and minds of other human beings, nobody can ever really determine or prove motivation. The only true judge a person has is their own conscience, and humanity is in a very sorry state when most of those consciences say, "BUT THEY STARTED IT!"
kay
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:
Wilfred, you are possibly the worst advocate on the face of the planet, if you don’t mind my saying so.
Shoes, Wilfred. Why are they wearing expensive imported shoes? Focus.
"Two-thirds of Hebron’s textile workshops have closed and 6,000 shoe factory workers have lost their jobs in the last eight years, pushing unemployment to 30.5 percent, the highest in the West Bank, according to Hebron’s chamber of commerce.
Old industries are being squeezed out, while Israeli restrictions on movement and land development limit the scope for new ventures. Israel’s measures to stop suicide bombers make it much harder to get goods into Israel, and West Bank manufacturers can no longer sell to Gaza, sealed off after the violent Hamas takeover there last year."
John Cole
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian: I’d heard reports about it in the past, but not nearly as frequently as I hear reports of human shields being used to stage attacks on Israel. The former is barely mentioned, the latter is generally widely reported and accepted as fact.
In either case it is wrong, and as someone who once was in the military, I find it mind-boggling that trained military units would engage in this sort of behavior. But then again, I see a lot of mind-boggling and horrifying things done by both sides in this mess.
Zifnab
At some point in time, the world militaries encountered the "human shield" dilemma as a major issue – both logistically and from a PR perspective.
Fortunately, the advent of higher caliber penetrating rounds and heavy ordinance from air strikes and mortar attacks has de-emphasized the logistical issues.
And from a PR perspective? Well, that’s what Marty Peretz is for.
I remember a few years back hearing the same "tennis shoe" argument as an attack on various domestic programs. Food stamps? Affordable housing? College scholarships? Why are we pampering these urban youths when they clearly have such nice shoes?!
These folks will never cede the moral high ground. They’ll march right down into the gutter and announce themselves superior to you.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
This for linking to a story about israeli soldiers using a Palestinian man as a human shield. This is feverish.
Bit of hyperbole there, no? Of course it’s better than facing up to it.
Then you need to get your fat ass out of your barcalounger. it’s not me who blogs about screaming at some kid for delivering his gut bomb pizza too fucking late.
dslak
John: Couldn’t you also say that it’s untenable for Israel to continually blockade Gaza? That particular catalyst for the current crisis is going consistently unnoticed.
4tehlulz
I’m sorry, I may have missed something. How is this evidence that you are not fevered and irrational?
dslak
@4tehlulz: I thought it was evidence for the contrary proposition.
Zifnab
@dslak:
We’ve been embargoing Cuba for the past 50 years. I don’t really see how that is untenable.
dslak
@Zifnab: @Zifnab: I wasn’t using ‘untenable’ to mean ‘physically impossible,’ nor do I think John was using it that way, either.
John Cole
@4tehlulz: And since when is not accepting delivery of an inferior and inaccurate product after waiting three hours “screaming at a kid.”
“Dude- this is the wrong order. Can I have my money back?”
Oh, the humanity.
SGEW
@John Cole: Wait, you’re ceding the barcalounger accusation? You have a barcalounger?
. . .
What’s it like?
Comrade Stuck
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:
When you try and draw an equivilency argument with what Hamas is currently doing, then yes, feverish. The argument should be whether it is morally right for the IDF to take the step of bombing houses full of children where Hamas is hiding. Stick to that, and I would agree with you,
John Cole
@SGEW: Sadly, no.
You know what I am thinking about getting, though? One of these.
John S.
A fine example.
I’m sure the Israelis aspire to have their efforts prove to be as utterly futile as ours have been.
The Other Steve
Technically sneakers are not tennis shoes.
So you’re just full of lies and bullshit.
The Moar You Know
Can’t stand you guys taking Wilfred seriously. It’s about time I clued you into something I realized about the guy a long time ago. He’s a spoof.
I’ve known many Muslims over the years. A lot of them are somewhat anti-Israel and anti-Jew. However, not even the Palestinians I’ve known are remotely anything close to being this much of a frothing maniac.
As to what his goal is in acting like this on a message board, I’ll let you guys figure it out.
DanF
So Cuba is still spreading revolution throughout the hemisphere? Huh. I had no idea.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
What kind of countertops do these Palestinian households have?
SGEW
@John Cole:
Those things are actually super-awesome. I’ve never had one (I like to lean back), but I know a lot of people with bad backs who swear by ’em.
4tehlulz
@The Moar You Know: Sometimes, that low-hanging fruit is just too tempting to pass up.
SGEW
Those Che t-shirts didn’t happen by themselves, dude.
sparky
incidentally, Pat Lang’s take on what’s going on in Gaza is the most plausible explanation i’ve seen for this campaign, as distinct from the various PR spins about it.
sparky
@SGEW: and cigar bars are the new meeting places of the comintern! this is excellent news for Trotsky, comrade!
TheHatOnMyCat
Oh, well, that’s simple. Both sides in this situation have stated that God gave them the land and so they have to fight for it.
Apparently, God has quite the sense of humor, giving two communities of people who hate each other the same land and suggesting that they fight over it for several decades.
But He works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform, so it is for us just to watch the show. Let go, and let God.
4tehlulz
@sparky: WebSense haet Pat Lang; can you provide a quick synopsis?
John S.
The trade embargo stopped Hugo Chavez’s rise to power! And it loosened Castro’s iron grip on Cuba! And Israel’s blockade will stop the spread of revolution in the Middle East! And it will ultimately break Hamas’ grip over Gaza!
I’m intrigued by your ideas, and I’d like to subscribe to your newsletter.
The Moar You Know
@SGEW: I’ve got one. It’s like having a Porsche 911 that is the size of a semi. It’s fast, huge, everyone gets out of your way and you are toally indestructible. Your headlights are flamethrowers and your horn is a rocket launcher. The car stereo isn’t a stereo, it’s all of your favorite bands, playing live, with their original/best lineups, even the dead guys, and they’re always awesome and they never make a mistake. Also on board with you is every Sports Illustrated swimsuit model, and they’re all taking turns giving you a blowjob, crowding around you, fighting over who is going to be next while commenting favorably on your intelligence, good looks, and penis size. Escorting you is a squadron of F-22s and A-10s, towing giant American flags. Riding alongside you are trucks full of marching bands playing Sousa marches alternating with Wagner. In front of you are all the cool floats from the Rose parade, with bevies of scantily-clad cheerleaders throwing white roses into the air so that your Super Porsche won’t have to drive on ordinary pavement.
It’s that good.
sparky
@4tehlulz: better to just give the man credit and blockquote his Gaza piece:
TheHatOnMyCat
And just for grins, John, what would be your explanation today for moderation on my post at 42?
4tehlulz
@John S.: Well the embargoes did prevent Cuba from gaining a foothold in the Mediterranean, so I think you should be more careful with that snark Mr. S.
SGEW
THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!1! FOR TROTSKY!1ONE1!
The Moar You Know
I am just fucking up with the mod filter today. Damn and sorry.
@4tehlulz: Under different circumstances, I could see myself doing the same thing.
Comrade Stuck
@John Cole:
Didn’t I see one of those on teevee from down Gitmo way.
sparky
@SGEW:as i am *with* the mac borg i am not permitted to read your reformatting but it is undoubtedly a revisionist quagmire of revanchist symbolism, comrade.
Punchy
The only way Israel gets passed this "human shield" fiasco is to use their nukes.
4tehlulz
@TheHatOnMyCat: And by "God" you mean "the British" amirite?
I think I’ve figured out why negotiations about this region keep breaking down; God will not give His blessing until the two sides come together and ritually sacrifice a British and French cartographer to atone for their nations’ post-WW I sins.
Also recommended for Central Africa, except add a Belgian mapmaker to the ceremony.
sparky
@Punchy: that, or send in the wrong pizza.
SGEW
Well, that rates highly on my list of "most depressing things I’ve read all day."
sgwhiteinfla
Actually that is deniable. The rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel severely fell off to less than one a day during the 5 months of the cease fire. The rocket attacks skyrocketed in the last 2 weeks since the ceasefire expired. Not that the timing makes it any better or excuses it, but those are the facts.
John S.
Don’t forget those two communities that hate each other also stem from the same paternal bloodline. That must have been God’s little joke on Abraham, since even though Abraham was promised a multitude of children, Sarah grew impatient and had Abraham impregnate Hagar and give birth to Ishmael. And of course it was also God’s fault that Sarah in her jealousy cast out Hagar and Ishmael, causing Hagar to earn the sympathy of God and promise her a multitude of offspring. And of course it was God’s giant prank on humanity that He made good on his promises to both Abraham and Hagar, creating the two factions that would come to be known as Judaism and Islam, knowing that they would despise each other.
Mankind is innocent for the actions we make. It’s all God’s fault.
John Cole
Well, I thought he was real, but we all know what a gullible fool I am.
At any rate, I used to live next to some folks from Beirut who were the nicest people on the planet until the topic of Israel came up, and then they turned into frothing lunatics. She was worse than him. It was insane.
I never truly understood Medea until I met her.
DanF
Wow. Castro was responsible for Chavez’s rise to power? I’ve learned so much today!
Was that the goal of the blockade? Huh. I thought it was invoked in retaliation to the nationalization of American-held assets in Cuba. Clearly, I need to start reading more cereal boxes.
John S.
LOL
That nearly caused a Category 5 coffee spray onto the monitor.
sparky
@4tehlulz: you know, Cheney might be available to torch the Hague after the 20th. Might even toss in the EU HQ for free.
SGEW
Sounds like certain comment threads I’ve read through recently.
sgwhiteinfla
This clip from the young turks talks about the "human shield" excuse
passerby
This whole expensive shoe thing is absolutely a hair brained notion, but something’s been bothering me from the beginning. If Palestinians are being starved out and cut off with embargos and such, where the sam hill are they getting money to buy rockets and bombs? (which ain’t cheap.) And how are those weapons getting to them?
Who is supporting them militarily?
Who is pushing the "anti-Israel" meme forward? Why are they provoking Israel when they know they’re out gunned?
Fomentation. Someone’s itching for a fight and the rest of the world seems to have had enough of this shit between Israel and Palestine. While I was home for Christmas there was a protest against Israel in downtown New Orleans!! Pretty sizable too. This city can barely scrape together a protest against the corruption at city hall but can get in the streets to cry out against a long standing conflict a half a world away.
Comrade Stuck
He’d be a damn good spoof if your right. But what does it matter, it’s show biz here at BJ, and the show must go on regardless. The Funhouser’s expect nothing less.
El Cid
@Zifnab: We didn’t blockade Cuba for 50 years. That’s different. We don’t control Cuba’s borders and ports and air access. That’s different. Any nation that wishes to ignore the U.S. embargo and suffer the economic reprisals can do so. Venezuela, for example.
4tehlulz
@passerby: 1ranz in ur n0la. f0ment1n ur d00dz
SGEW
@The Moar You Know: To tell the truth, that sounds kind of terrifying.
passerby
@4tehlulz:
Baby, I don’t understand what ur sayin’. otra ves, por favor?
MikeJ
Or Canada. Or France. Or England. Or Israel. Or the entire fucking world.
There are no economic reprisals for trade with Cuba unless you are a citizen of the land of the free.
John S.
Of course not! They have nothing to do with each other – they just like to make the publicity rounds together for shits and giggles. Just keep telling yourself that our goal of "halting the spread of revolution" worked very well in South America.
According to you, it was to "halt the spread of revolution", although if that was the case I’m not sure why we aided it by allowing corrupt US corporations to dominate the Cuban economy under Batista and then failed to aid his pushback against Castro in 1958 when we halted arms sales to his government. (State Department advisor William Wieland lamented that "I know Batista is considered by many as a son of a bitch… but American interests come first… at least he was our son of a bitch.")
But if you believe our government:
I don’t what the fuck you ARE reading, but cereal boxes would probably be a good start for you.
TheHatOnMyCat
The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain!
By George, I think he’s got it.
(sincere and abject apologies to Alan Jay Lerner)
PeakVT
Arabic is a language easily taken to exaggeration and hyperbole.
Old Marty should take a gander at this family tree.
John S.
@El Cid:
That’s a totally valid point. Terminology is important, so to be clear the Israelis have an effective military blockade over Gaza, whereas we have a very weak and pointless trade embargo over Cuba.
The terms definitely are not interchangeable, although I do know Cubans refer to our embargo as el bloqueo (the blockade), but certainly this is more for propagandist reasons than accuracy.
DanF
No. You were making the point that the Cuban embargo was not effective. I was pointing out that this is just simplistic not true.
No argument that the embargo of Cuba is a joke long past it’s expiration date. It hasn’t been meaningful since the Soviet Union collapsed, and should have died when Carter tried to end it (yet another thing Carter was right about) and has more to do with FL electoral votes than anything else.
It did effectively isolate Castro. Yes, engagement would have been more productive in the long haul. Engagement may have precluded the Cuban missile crisis for example, but engagement with socialists in the 1960’s wasn’t an option. Blockade or bomb them were the options. I’m glad we chose blockade.
As for Chavez he would have never attained power if the population wasn’t abused by the wealthy industrialists backed by the United States. Castro is shorthand for their history and a useful poster child for his cause; not the reason for his attaining power.
And to be clear – this, of course, has nothing at all to do with the Gaza or Hamas.
TenguPhule
And that blockade is the result of several years of suicide bombing followed by said people responsible for the bombs being put in charge of Gaza.
So yeah. We can go back round and round and it still won’t change what’s happening now.
TenguPhule
Where do you think all that aid money that disappeared from the books went? Granted, the Palestinian leadership steals a lot of it, but it’s an open secret that stuff that’s supposed to be for humanitarian aid goes to weapons (much like North Korea).
As for how, smuggling. If there is one thing you have to give Hamas and the PLO credit for, they’re fucking geniuses at coming up with ways to sneak things in and out.
Andrew
Again, the fundamental problems seem to be: Hamas is insane, and Israel is fundamentally wrong about settlements.
There’s really nothing we can do about the current war, or Hamas being insane, so it seems like the rational thing to do is for the U.S. to pressure Israel on West Bank settlements. As a strong supporter of Israel, I think it’s high time that we condition aid on the removal of West Bank settlements, not just limits on expansion. And I think that now may actually be a reasonable time to do this, by largely ignoring the Gaza war, slinging some b.s. platitudes about supporting Israeli security, and getting Obama to take a stand on the settlements.
But even if Israel were to pull back to the 1967 borders, it still doesn’t solve the Hamas problem. So, well, everything is still fucked.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
.
Well, i thought once that you had real balls, Cole, but your old pals at Redstate had you mugged and numbered.
You like getting your ass kissed too much. It’s a sign of weakness in a man.
Cheers, girls. I much prefer the company at Pat Lang’s. Bring your israel first spiel.
SGEW
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian: Cripes, Wilfred. Must it be all "balls" and "man" and "girls"? What’s next, you gonna start saying fag00t too?
Class, y’all. True class.
And why does his handle not spark up th’ spam filter, while our mentioning [email protected] does? Seems almost . . . counter-productive, or something.
John Cole
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian: Now you aren’t even trying.
jake 4 that 1
Completely unlike English then. Good thing too or we might have to put up with the unedifying spectacle of a former Attorney General claiming to be a casualty of the war against terra.
But wait, if a Palestinian who speaks English uses terms like genocide and starvation, does that negate the hyper-hyperbolic properities of Arabic or does it depend on whether or not he has an accent? And what about languages on the same branch of the languange family tree?
Fixed.
passerby
Probably so Tenguphule, I wouldn’t be surprised at this.
Look at the information that makes its way to the front pages of the corporate media. Rockets, bombs, rubble, bleeding men, women and children. Hamas doesn’t seem to give a damn about the innocents. Israel doesn’t seem to give a damn about the innocents. The war game being played by the Powers That Be marches on and for what?
The idea about bombing Iran as faded from view but, Israel is bound and determined to bomb something or someone so that the US (and western allies) can be sucked into the quagmire to perpetuate terrorism and a constant state of mayhem to fuel hatred against brown people and the oil they’re sitting on. (And feed the Military Industrial Complex.)
It seems the world is tired of being played like this and as some pundit stated, this whole ME mess needs "honestly brokered" peace talks.
The Moar You Know
I love the smell of burning spoof in the morning.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Incidentally, I don’t like being called a liar. If you want to bet real money on that, pick a number. Better yet, pick an academic reputation. I offered those odds once before, as I recall. In exhange for the pleasure of proving you a fatuous asshole and gaining the deed to your house, I’ll pay for plane ticket to a conference we’re putting on. You can come and speak about moral equivalence, etc.
The charge is that I’m not what I say I am, correct?
You’ve got my e-mail address, Cole. Write me there and I’ll give you my University e-mail.
Comrade Peter J
@Scruffy McSnufflepuss:
Countertops are so 2007.
jake 4 that 1
Crap. This one.
liberal
@John Cole:
But our first responsibility (writing as an American citizen) is our own nation’s actions, not the actions of others.
Instead of focussing only on the morality of Israeli and Palestinian actions, ISTM that as Americans the central question should be: why should we be involved in this at all?
Because, given the amount of aid we give to Israel, we surely are involved, just as involved as we were when we were funding 75% of the French war effort by the end of the French-Indochinese war.
demimondian
@John Cole: sh oe-boy is mostly pathetic — an academic wannabe with no true guts or grit.
liberal
@passerby:
Given the amount of aid, military and otherwise, we give Israel, we’re already sucked in.
GSD
Oh henny penny. We are watching the same video of the same nice shoes being shown over and over again on the news.
-Donald Rumsfeld
SGEW
BTW, Larison is posting again. With a vengeance.
Essential stuff.
dave
"Arabic is a language easily taken to exaggeration and hyperbole."
Funny how this doesn’t ever seem to apply to Arabic statements as to their intentions regarding Israel.
Zifnab
@Andrew:
Hamas is only a viable political party because Israel insists on being such a collective pack of assholes. It’s the same situation re: Iraq. You send in a massive occupying force with complete disregard for human life focused entirely on raiding your country for the benefit of its empire, and you get a lot of very desperate people strapping bombs to their backsides and throwing themselves at your occupying force.
You want to break Hamas? Give everyone in Palestine a freak’n job. Fewer people are going to have time to fire rockets into the West Bank when they’ve got to hold down a 9 to 5. Fewer radicalized muslims can balance jihad with supporting a family of four that haven’t been slaughtered in an Israel air raid.
Fatah was the party of the middle class Palestinian dude back when Palestine had something resembling commerce and industry. End the blockades, restore trade and commerce, and – for the love of your god of choice – stop bulldozing Palestinian settlements. You’ll get your moderate Fatah movement back and consign Hamas to the history books.
dslak
@TenguPhule: The blockade that precipitated the current fighting was not a response to suicide bombings, but to limited Qassam rockets being fired into Israeli territory, which Israel deemed to be a violation of the ceasefire agreement and reinstated a total blockade. The Palestinians responded to the blockade by firing more rockets into civilian areas.
My point however was not to insinuate that the Palestinian side is blameless in contributing to the present situation, but merely to point out that the decision by Hamas to resort to violence was not made in a vacuum, and that Israel shares some blame for the crisis by opting to block all trade – even humanitarian aid – coming into Gaza.
Evilbeard
John, you got quoted in James Wolcott’s Vanity Fair blog. I wonder if this means your quote will end up in the printed magazine as well.
Good Job Mr. Former Neo-con! =P
Andrew
True, but also dependent upon the corruption and incompetence of Fatah. But Hamas is still a problem even when they’re not in political power. They’re just more of a problem now.
However, if we look at the pre-second intifada period, where there was reasonable economic progress in the Palestinian territories, that wasn’t enough to prevent escalation into further war.
So, what the fuck can we do about that?
TenguPhule
Also true the other way around.
Israel can’t get rid of their Bushies in charge either.
TenguPhule
The trick being who can be an honest broker.
There may be some small out of the way African country which qualifies.
Everyone else, not so much.
The major players all pissed away their credibility and moral authority long ago.
But who knows, maybe Obama will surprise us. It would be a nice continuation on a theme.
TenguPhule
Well wilfred, maybe you could stop lying then.
neil
If they were actually hungry, they would have eaten those sneakers, or at least tried to chew on them a little.
TenguPhule
Refresh your memory please.
Palestinians lost many of their jobs thanks to Hamas nd company.
Their suicide bombings drove Israel to shut down Palestinian traffic into Israel where many of them were employed.
So yeah.
Hamas made it a point to fuck their fellows and then offer aid when Israel retaliated.
John Cole
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian: What the hell are you even talking about? I am the person here who said you were real.
Am I missing something, or does Wilfred get all pissed off at someone else on every thread and then attack me for what they said?
And for the record, I don’t give a shit where you work or who you are, you are an asshole either way.
Steve S.
I wouldn’t dignify the quoted remark as "wingnutty". It is unreconstructed racism.
John PM
@4tehlulz: #54
This statement nicely describes my new philosophy on 20th Century history: "It’s England’s fault." Israel and Palestine, India and Pakistan, Northern Ireland, everywhere the British have tried to create countries they have caused decades of strife. It is a damn good thing that America was able to successfully declare its independence from England or America, Canada and Mexico would now be entering their seventh decade of violence after England included the entire Great Lakes Region in Canada and made California a part of Mexico. Actually, I think that would be a great idea for an alternative history novel. I call copyright!!
Brick Oven Bill
Wilfred works at a University and attends conferences?
Wow, he must be smart.
Tattoosydney
@John Cole:
Eh. I have one – they make you sit up straight, so they are really great for your back, but after about an hour your knees start to hurt and/or your feet or your butt go to sleep and you spend twenty minutes trying to get rid of pins and needles….
On balance, they’re not bad, but they just shift the discomfort to other bits of your body.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled acrimony.
sgwhiteinfla
@ John Cole
I am not taking up for Wilfred cuz I am kinda new here as far as posting, and evidently he has earned his rep as a troll/asshole well in advance. However I pointed out up thread that you were wrong when you said "and it is undeniable that the attacks have skyrocketed in recent months". You are factually incorrect on that point and you can easily verify that you are incorrect. And in the link Wilfred posted its pretty clear that whether its talked about a lot in our media (imagine that, we don’t publicize Israel using human shields) the Israelis have in the past used Palestinians as human shields. That is a very damning fact, especially since one of the strongest condemnations you will hear right now on any cable news station is that Hamas is the one responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians because of the "human shield" argument. Yet you haven’t changed nor updated your post on either account and from any non biased reading, your entire last paragraph is a condemnation of Hamas with no balance in talking about the things Israel has also done wrong. Now maybe it doesn’t matter all that much, and after all it is YOUR blog, but it does come off as one sided to me. But what do I know right?
Brick Oven Bill
The Qur’an is a brilliant document, and the reason Dar al-Islam continues to grow, despite its refusal to embrace the scientific method.
Just think about the logic behind four wives. The Alpha males reproduce widely, and for every one ‘breeding’ male, there are three sexually-frustrated males to expand the land holdings for their offspring.
The weakness is the parasitic nature of the Believers on the dhimmis. When it gets big enough, the whole system collapses back on itself. Isolation is the West’s best defense. Arming and feeding the populations will not work. When you engage Islam, you are going to get dirty. They are not going to become Lutherans.
TenguPhule
BOB, the other side’s wingnut version of wilfred.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Are you fucking schizophrenic? What else am I to make of this crack?:
Goddamn, man. You can’t even remember your own bullshit.
Piss off.
John Cole
@sgwhiteinfla: Because it is wrong whoever is using human shields. Right now, the accusations are that it is Hamas and the Palestinians, and since we are talking about the situation right now, unless you have a charge that right now the IDF is doing that, it is irrelevant.
This is why I hate this fucking issue. You say that categorically something is wrong, and you get ten people saying ‘Oh yeah? Well look what they did in 2004?’ and then someone responds and says “well look at this from 2003.”
Then both sides flame you for not saying the truth as their tribe sees it. Fuck it all. I am done on this issue. I will say this- I have never met anyone who was a worse advocate for his cause than Wilfred. Well, maybe Marty Peretz.
Tony J
Well now come on then, to be fair your first example is flawed because one of the major drivers for violence in the Middle-East is the fact that there is no Palestinian state, not that Britain erred in creating one. The second is only true in regards to Pakistan, since India already insisted that it existed and was bigger than the Pakistanis thought it should be. And thirdly Northern Ireland isn’t a country, it’s a sort of non-quantifiable rump dependency full of very attractive women, fewer and fewer of whom are raising children on a teat full of hate and old grieviances since the peace kicked in.
On the other hand, your overall point stands amusingly upright. As does the one about sacrificing cartographers of culpable nations. We won’t know until we try, will we?
The Moar You Know
Shorter Wilfred: "i am the rain king. i am loved. i am lucky. i will be rich. i am beautiful. i will have your humility."
John Cole
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian: How is that bullshit, you worthless troll? Someone said you were a spoof, and I said I thought you were real. And since I fell for both DougJ and Darrell and legions of other trolls, I think the fact that I am pretty damned gullible is relevant.
Regardless, I have been responding to you as if you are real. A real asshole.
demimondian
@4tehlulz: FTW
sgwhiteinfla
@John Cole
I am not flaming you at all. I am saying that in the comments you have acknowleded that they are both wrong, but your post doesn’t reflect that. You do realize that the "human shield" argument being used now is just recycled from over the years right? I haven’t seen any reports about Hamas firing from schools, mosques and hospitals the last two weeks. If you have then I sincerely apologize. To be honest I do think the best course in this thing is for most folks not to take sides at all because both sides are wrong. But you took the time out to point out many of the things that Hamas has been accused of doing wrong historically including some erroneous information about skyrocketing attacks. My only point is that when you take it there and decide to go ahead and speak on some of the transgressions of one side it might do well to point out some of the transgressions of the other. Thats all. Like I said before its YOUR blog and I respect that.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
@Comrade Peter J:
Israeli airstrikes are so 2006. The last days of the Bush Administration have something of a retro feel to them.
John Cole
@sgwhiteinfla: And here is the information I am working with regarding rocket/mortar attacks. That looks like an escalation to me. If you have other facts that contradict this, pass it along.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Wow, you sound just like Napoleon Dynamite.
You made an accusation, got called on it, and weaseled your way out of it.
Classy.
sgwhiteinfla
@John Cole
You were looking at the list from 2007
Here is the list from 2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008
See that wasn’t so hard was it?
John Cole
Like, for example, repeatedly pointing out that bombing the shit out of Gaza is pointless and immoral, as I have done in every post on this issue? Like, for example, pointing out that bombing the shit out of someone’s kids is not only mostly illegal, but will breed future terrorism, as I did yesterday?
Christ on a crutch, I thought if anything my posts the last few days would get me flamed by the pro-Israel folks.
John Cole
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian: Alright, you are a troll.
The Moar You Know claimed you were a spoof. I said I thought you were real.
Are you using English as a second language?
sgwhiteinfla
@John Cole
Right now you seemed to be spoiling for a flame war and I am not trying to have one with you. Calling Israels actions illegal and immoral is good but something most people would say is a judgement call. The stuff I was pointing out was facts that can’t be dismissed so easily. Look I am mostly with you on this issue so I will just end it here because I think you are misreading me on this whole thing.
John Cole
@sgwhiteinfla: You provided a link to a list of rocket attacks, I provided you to a link of rocket attacks with a comparison of the frequency. Both are from the same source, but somehow your facts are right, mine are wrong, and I am calling for a flame war.
Show me a link to the number of attacks that shows the number staying steady or declining, and without a saracastic “Gee that wasn’t too hard.” I showed you the information I had, which would tend to show an escalation in the attacks.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Why on earth should they? You’re a useful idiot for them. If you weren’t, your email would be overflowing with spam. Besides, you’re always quick to point out the usual disclaimers, with the end result that it’s always status quo ante – which is what they want. My posts get me flamed, yours get your ass kissed.
Mnemosyne
Given the events on the West Bank earlier this month, I think that’s going to be quite a bit harder than you think.
In fact, in my more cynical moments, I think that the current attack on Gaza is happening because the right-wing elements in Israel are pissed off that the settlers weren’t allowed to continue their rampage in the West Bank and the government needed to throw them a bone.
Bob In Pacifica
Understand the target audience for Peretz.
The sneaker quote is to tie in the children of Gaza with African American teenagers. By doing this they become "sand n*****s". Easier to despise and dismiss if you’ve already had practice with similar lessers. They probably spend all their time playing basketball and building katushas instead of studying.
It also suggests that they are spendthrifts, wasting their money on new sneakers instead of buying food. I presume the mothers are welfare queens and drive to the sneaker store in their Cadillacs.
Considering the state of Gaza these days the shoes that kids were wearing were probably given to them by some relief agency. Perhaps Peretz would be be assuaged if they’d given the children used, muddy shoes.
Mnemosyne
You’d almost think this was John’s blog and not your blog, wouldn’t you?
John Cole
Here is something from April of this year, but it cuts off at the beginning of 2008.
John Cole
@Mnemosyne: Could someone point out the ass-kissing, because I seem to have missed it.
Tony J
While I don’t blame you in the least for wanting to spare yourself and BJ itself the rinse-and-repeat flamewars that this issue always drags threads into, you can’t really in all conscience leave Wilfred out there on his own. There are a few posters here who, through their principled putting-on of the Cognative-Dissonance Goggles where this issue and this issue alone is concened, deserve to keep him company as he continues his slow orbit around the blog.
Put it this way, when someone dismisses the deliberate murder of an unarmed peace activist by running her over with a bulldozer with a smarmy "Heh. Darwin Award Winner", IMHO they’ve achieved a level of assfuckitude that makes poor old Wilfred look like a relative piker in comparison.
John Cole
Here is something from Right Side News claiming the number of attacks doubled. I question the objectivity of the host site and the site they are relying on for their data, though.
sgwhiteinfla
@John Cole
Do you know where I got the link I posted? From the link you posted. The link you posted went through all of the attacks in 2007>. The one I went to from your link went to the ones in 2008. I mean like I said you are still trying to engage in a fight with someone who isn’t trying to fight you. Go back and look at your own link and you will see where I got the link I posted from. Seriously this is just getting silly now.
TenguPhule
Did I go Heh?
From the accounts I’ve read, the Israeli couldn’t see her and couldn’t tell she was there until it was too late.
So yeah, Darwin Award.
John Cole
And here comes Michael Goldfarb into the fray:
Rationality, Weekly Standard style.
kay
@Brick Oven Bill:
That’s all sort of malarkey, though Bill, although it sounds big and bold and scary. Google "Palestinian shoe manufacture" and a whole interesting world ‘o trade and commerce opens up.
It’s hysterical the writer picked shoes. Apparently, shoes were a big issue, in textile trade in the West Bank. Deals were struck. Commerce was engaged…in. People (Palestinians!) were working and producing home-grown SHOES like crazy, from 1994. They owned the works. Then trade was shut off, like a spigot, and "making shoes" dried right up.
They were making shoes like Lutherans make shoes.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Maybe you’re right. But my cause can’t depend on me. It either stands on its merits, or it doesn’t. if one person leaves here with even the slightest inclination to consider the cause of the Palestinian people, that’s good enough.
Over time I have linked to dozens of sites and stories concerning the issues. Someone with an open mind can them read and think for himself. That’s enough.
If someone has the inclination to do so and doesn’t follow through because he thinks I’m an asshole he wouldn’t be much help for Palestine in any case.
parsnip
Ahh, but the sneakers that’s… that’s where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with… geometric logic… that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox DID exist, and I’d have produced that key if they hadn’t of pulled the Caine out of action. I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officers..
Punchy
Suck it Cole. I’m disgusted that you have not advocated Israel using their nukes, bug spray, and applesauce in their struggle against Those Evil Sand Negros. You’re such the anti-Semite, antibody, antifreeze, Auntie Ross, Ross n’ Rachel, and Dick Rodreiquez supporter. Unless you scour the net to find every single relevant fact before posting anything ever ever again always, also, you’ll always be so pro-Brown and anti-juice.
Just disgusting.
Mnemosyne
@John Cole:
I’m not entirely sure, but apparently if we aren’t all constantly denouncing you for your evil intentions towards the Palestinians, that constitutes kissing your ass. Or something.
Tony J
There you go, John. Amend that list of bad advocates. I’ve got nothing more to add.
p.a.
1932 Hooverite retro unfortunately.
So after 40 years (at least) of eye-for-an-eye, you slap me I punch you foreign policy, Israeli security is sooo much better today, right?
Of course, now I have to make the obligatory nod to Palestinian brutality. But the Palestinians aren’t the ones claiming to represent Western ideals (or is that argument so Israel circa 1967?) And the Palestinians aren’t the ones with the US subsidized war machine. Since it seems Israel really is our 51st state, maybe they had better start paying taxes to help support their American money transfers.
Because the way things are going here, in a little while the money chute from here to there my come to be seen as an unaffordable luxury. So the nation that claims to be the grown-up, Westernized outpost in the Levant should maybe try to chart another course.
Of course, when push comes to shove, who wants to bet the Istaeli money chute won’t take precedence over potential domestic ones. For auto workers, for example. Or mortgage holders. Or family farms. You get the idea…
passerby
@ liberal, agreed. Makes me wonder who’s really calling the shots here (pardon the pun).
Tenguphule, I agree on all counts. I think that, more and more, the world at large sees/knows what’s going on. The UN will soon be outed as an ineffective, elite club that has strayed from its original mission and will be "house cleaned".
With the dismantling of the Bush/Cheney administration and their removal from power, I too am hoping that Obama’s Change Brigade will engage in some serious, truth-telling diplomacy that will serve the people of the region.
Those who hold power in Israel will have to bow if enough regional pressure towards a true resolution can be brought to bear.
Enough is enough. Palestine needs, and deserves their own sovereign land.
John Cole
@sgwhiteinfla: This seems to support your assertion:
mapaghimagsik
Can Michelle Malkin go and check out their counter tops?
Please?
Brick Oven Bill
I Googled ‘Palestinian shoe manufacture’ and all I came up with was this. It is a government agency that employs fifteen people. But the ‘Al-Worood Shoe Manufacturing Company’ seems to have gotten out of the shoe business and now makes staples. I am glad for those fifteen people who make staples for a government agency, but that, does not, a functioning economy make.
Although Lutherans probably do make staples, so maybe there is hope.
I say let them live in whatever manner they choose to live. Let’s split the world in half, and declare Islam the RICO violation that it is in this hemisphere. If Europe or Israel wants to defend itself, more power to it. If we become Islamic, you see, it will be illegal to have Jack Russell terriers as pets.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
@p.a.:
At this point, it’s pretty hard to cheerlead either side. Each side can offer endless justifications for doing unspeakable acts of violence to the other. Hamas is pure evil, and Israel feigns moral superiority while raining mass devastation down from the skies, blowing women and children to bits in pursuit of individual terrorists.
I’m rooting for whichever side shows the courage to stop the tit-for-tat violence first. Until then, a plague on both of their houses. I can’t cheer on either side without feeling like a hypocritical monster, so I’m not cheering on anybody. Leave this issue to the rabid partisans for one "team" or the other. The rabid partisans have won out in Israel and Palestine to the general betterment of mankind; there’s no reason they shouldn’t win out here too.
kay
@Brick Oven Bill:
I used to rely on conservatives for accurate bidness info. You used to sort of own that market. I was REGULARLY trounced. Not any more.
Now you’re in the big, bold, scary, malarkey bidness.
They had a thriving textile trade, in the West Bank. Whether they were all crazed and sexually frustrated while industrially producing shoes because of your "4 wives" hypothesis is neither here nor there.
Cain
@Evilbeard:
John’s picking up notice from a lot of places. But what I really want to know is when we the commentariat are going to get an award. I mean, we make this place sing!
cain
The Grand Panjandrum
Oh, those poor wingnuts. Gosh with that crazy liberal Greg Sargent leaving TPM to go work for a new blog project at WaPO we have these gems from some of our faves:
Eric the Red Stater:
T.O.P. (The Other Pantload aka Michael Goldfarb):
Boo fucking hoo … not really wingnuttiest remarks but certainly contenders (at this early date!) for WATB of 2009. Just how pathetic will these guys get over the next few years? I can hardly wait to find out. Awesome. The opposition is filled with 14 donut eating pantloads who spend most of the day trying to find their dicks. (Hey dipshit! Eat a fucking salad and go for a jog once in a while and it might reappear.)
Zifnab
@Andrew:
That had more to do with a break-down in peaceful negotiations and revolved around Palestinian and Israeli leadership more than the collective populations. And its the sort of thing you send in the UN peacekeepers on, when one side or another decides its "my way or rocket to your face".
And when you look at the situation incident by incident, you see the exact same hyper-reactionism that we see today – take, for instance, the Ramallah Lynchings and Israeli Response. These over-actions compounded a problem that could have been settled more peacefully. But when you’ve got an unemployment rate that – in the best of times – hoovers around 20%, you’re still looking at one in five Palestinians with too much free time.
@TenguPhule:
I can’t argue with you here. But when Israel shut down traffic, they inflated Hamas support. Hamas had themselves a little recruitment rally and Israel facilitated it marvelously, as Israel decided that unemployed Palestinians were going to side with historical geopolitical enemies over local politicians.
Jacking up the unemployment rate helped Hamas and hurt Israel. That’s my point. Israel’s policy needs to be less Normandy Invasion and more Marshall Plan if they want to see peace any time soon.
Cain
@John Cole:
I think he’s sweet on you. Maybe you should send him a box of chocolates?
cain
liberal
@Scruffy McSnufflepuss:
(yawn)
If you’re writing from the USA, you belong to one of the sides—to wit, the Israeli one. Why? Because we finance their military and ship them weapons.
Brick Oven Bill
I don’t think they make shoes in Gaza kay. The CIA Worldbook says this:
"Generally small family businesses that produce textiles, soap, olive-wood carvings, and mother-of-pearl souvenirs; the Israelis had established some small-scale modern industries in an industrial center, but operations ceased prior to Israel’s evacuation of Gaza Strip settlements."
The birthrate is 5.19 children per female. That is 21 offspring per Alpha male. It is a brilliant system.
liberal
@p.a.:
Exactly.
I figure it would be fair to tax them one a one-for-one basis: for every dollar of American aid we ship them, they pay us one dollar in taxes.
liberal
@The Grand Panjandrum:
I hate to say this, but I’m not all that impressed with TPM. I mean, I read the site sometimes, but given that they probably employ a few people, there’s not all that much original content or analysis there.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
@liberal:
Oh, right, because I’m George Bush and control American foreign policy.
Fuck you. I have as much personal control over what America does with its foreign aid as the average night stocker at Walmart does over the corporate political donations.
liberal
@Zifnab:
My impression is that it’s been long term Israeli strategy to enable the extremists in the opposite and to disable more moderate factions. Presumably because of the (reasonable) assumption that extremists tend to blow themselves up (figuratively speaking).
I also assume that this is not new historically, e.g. the folks who conspired to send Lenin back to Russia in one piece. IIRC it was the Germans, and it worked pretty well for awhile (took Russia out of WWI), but then came back to bite them in the a$$.
liberal
@Scruffy McSnufflepuss:
Right back atcha, douchebag.
You might not personally approve or endorse Israel’s actions.
The fact is, however, that the State acts on your behalf in these matters. To that extent, you’re involved.
Don’t like it? Are you willing to ask your Congresscritters to cut off all aid to Israel? If not, you’re entirely involved. If so, you’re as involved as I outlined above.
jibeaux
Guys, all this is just Bush laying the groundwork for the Palestinian state, duh. In time, the rationale for what seems like, to the untrained eye, the idiotic provocations of cowardly assholes not accepting of the reality-based existence of Israel and who do not appear to actually give a shit about the people they supposedly represent, followed by an unjustifiably disproportionate destructive reaction with an unacceptable loss of innocent lives — what would SEEM to be another chapter in a relentless cycle of counterproductive violence in a segment of the world which appears to be doomed to repeat said relentless cycles, is REALLY, ACTUALLY the groundwork for the Palestinian state.
(by the way, I’m not actually blaming Bush for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I’m just pointing out that, while I don’t envy the job of attempting to find redeeming points in the Bush administration, taking credit for a Palestinian state might be just a hair premature.)
kay
@Brick Oven Bill:
Well, I didn’t say Gaza, Bill, I said the West Bank. People in Gaza buy the shoes.
"Hebron mayor Oseily said competition from Chinese goods coupled with Israeli restrictions had forced about 200 shoe factories to close in the city, putting 17,000 out of work.
He said more than 40 percent of people in the Hebron area were unemployed and called the 250 Israeli army roadblocks there a "huge impediment" to business."
Tell me, are you really convinced that none of these people work, or would work, or are Lutheran-like enough to work?
I mean, that’s just crazy-town. Arabs are merchants, even in Disney movies. Is that your experience with Arab-Americans? It isn’t mine.
liberal
@jibeaux:
IMHO he made it a lot worse. Don’t forget—during the last Israeli attack on Lebanon, he went out of his way to rush replacement of their ammo.
Then again, Clinton was hardly all that good on the topic, though certainly not as awful as GWB.
GHWB was actually not so bad in some ways.
liberal
@John Cole quoted:
Some guy commenting at Glenn Greenwald’s blog posted a link to this at CNN, which I think says similar things. See in particular the bit that starts at
jibeaux
Wow, liberal is here to represent the fallacy of collective responsibility, as discussed by Larison.
I should think that at this point in time, 98% of the world not currently residing in the Middle East holds a point of view somewhere along the lines of "a pox on both their houses". It seems to me, depressing though it is, the most rational viewpoint at this point in time. Israel is the only facsimile of a democracy in the Middle East and is a legitimate state which other countries should stop being committed to destroying and possibly someday even include on their maps. They continually act like assholes. The Palestinians are an oppressed and victimized people who are long overdue for the peaceful establishment of a homeland. They continually act like assholes. It’s tragic, and depressing, and there are about as many moral black and whites in that part of the world as there are pandas in our part of the world. You certainly don’t have to agree, but you don’t have to draw a line in the sand just because someone doesn’t want to pick a side in the Duke-UCLA game, or (insert some other appropriate metaphor here if you prefer.)
liberal
@Scruffy McSnufflepuss:
(Minor clarification: when I wrote, "Are you willing to ask your Congresscritters to cut off all aid to Israel? If not, you’re entirely involved. If so, you’re as involved as I outlined above." I meant, "Are you willing to ask your Congresscritters to cut off all aid to Israel? If not, you’re entirely involved. If you are willing, however, you’re still as involved as I outlined above.")
I should add that the point I’m making is that you look morally tone deaf when you yap about a pox on both their houses, when in fact it’s your tax dollars funding one side to the conflict.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
@liberal:
Eat a bag of shit. Where do you live, Antarctica? On a boat in the high seas somewhere? Outer space? What’s your moral culpability on this issue, jerkoff?
So, if I don’t take the Palestinians’ side, I’m responsible for every Israeli action.
Thanks for clearing that up. I could give a shit less what the official American policy is on the issue. It has nothing whatsoever to do with my personal viewpoints, or with my utter despair with both sides. I’m not lobbying one way or the other.
But if you want to immolate yourself in front of the Pentagon to protest AIPAC, go right ahead. I won’t stop you. I’m sure it will be very effective. Much more so than a phone call to some Congressman’s staffer.
liberal
@jibeaux:
Yes, it’s not obvious to what extent we’re responsible for the actions of our government.
OTOH, if someone takes the view "a pox on both their houses," and hasn’t lifted a finger to act to disassociate us from the conflict—and worse, would be totally unwilling to do so—then there’s a problem.
Especially when the person who rants "a pox on both their houses" appears to have more responsibility for the conflict than the Palestinians who (despite all the talk about their "governments" in Gaza and the W.B.) are clearly not represented by a sovereign state, democratic or otherwise. We Americans, however, have many routes of action: not to pay his taxes (lots of sacrifice), petitioning our resentatives (hardly a sacrifice), etc, with an aim to disassociate ourselves.
Another way of putting it is that if you’re going to claim that we Americans don’t have any moral responsibility for the actions of our government, I hardly see how the average Palestinian has any responsibility.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
@liberal:
Thanks for clearing that up, as if I gave a crap what your partisan ass thought about it in the first place. Or about my personal moral culpability.
After all, I only hold positions on issues to please you personally. You’re the ultimate moral arbiter here. Obviously 300 million Americans are all equally culpable when Israel kills some people. I suppose that makes every man, woman and child in Iran responsible when Hezbollah blows up a civilian, too.
What other conflicts am I personally responsible for? The Georgian invasion of South Ossetia? The Contras in Nicaragua? The genocide in Darfur, by omission? Come on, don’t restrict yourself to Gaza. Please lay out every conflict for which every man, woman and child in America is personally morally responsible. Take you time, I’m sure it’s a long list.
TenguPhule
I don’t recall celebrations and passing out sweets here when a bomb delibrately targeting civilians killed them.
If I’m wrong, please let me know when, where and who so the situation can be addressed.
Tsulagi
@John Cole:
Yeah, but you’re missing the big picture. Wilfred needs to stay sharp in his mastery of rhetorical flourishes. Not likely, but Hillary may run again. Detroit Muslims would not be able to mobilize countering the threat unless motivated by Wilfredian prose. You’re playing a vital preparatory role.
liberal
@Scruffy McSnufflepuss:
Right back atcha, pottymouth.
In a democracy. One where I actually have some influence on my government’s actions.
But then you are involved. You’re saying you refuse to act against the status quo. If I read you right, you’re saying you not only won’t lobby the US government to get us uninvolved (out of despair that you’re influence will be too small)—you also refuse to.
Or maybe you’re too stupid to understand that the status quo is that the US government itself is heavily involved, on the side of Israel.
Then again, with all the pottymouth drivel you like to type, it’s not clear to me you understand anything.
Mnemosyne
The start of the second intifada was what pushed me from firmly pro-Israel to wanting to knock both of their goddamned heads together. Ariel Sharon deliberately provoked the Palestinians with his visit to the Temple Mount complex so he could get his fat ass elected — and it worked.
I really think that Sharon did far more damage to his country than even Netanyahu managed to do, and all to get himself elected.
Comrade Stuck
@Scruffy McSnufflepuss:
You should do like me. Attach a stickem note to every dollar I send to the Tax Man that clearly says my tax money is only to be spent on feeding the poor. I’m sure they do me right, but can’t prove it.
And leave liberal alone, he’s only looking out for Hamas because somebody has to. And besides, if America quits giving Israel money the Arab world would certainly accept Israel’s existence and leave them alone. It’s right there in the DU handbook of truth.
Brick Oven Bill
I had the opportunity to walk around markets throughout the Middle East, my impression was that there were lots of small vendors selling the stuff the CIA mentioned. Then there were imported cell phones, T-shirts, and cigarettes. The Saudis made their own cigarettes, which were called, IIRC, beedies. They were pretty bad. There was a lot of jewelry for sale, but I don’t know if it was made locally. I also remember the smell of raw sewage, even in Jeddah.
I acknowledge the long history of barter and experience it at the mall. But barter and low-skill labor will not support the human biomass that is being generated in that part of the world. It already can’t. Which introduces an ugly new reality. History may reflect poorly on those do-gooders who feed dependent populations, without insisting on birth controls.
Nothing good is coming of this. And it is likely just a diversion.
liberal
@TenguPhule:
Huh? Plenty of Americans were quite happy when we invaded Iraq. GWB’s poll numbers went up a lot at the time.
Plenty of Americans were quite happy that the Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Plenty still are.
Of course, there are some issues here, but if you’re going to use the simplistic "but group X was happy when group Y’s civilians were blown up," your argument is faulty.
I assume you’ll next argue that "we didn’t deliberately target civilians in Iraq"…
liberal
@Comrade Stuck:
Right. Because if I think we shouldn’t be involved there, because we have no business being involved there, and we have no national interest there, I’m "looking out for Hamas."
ROTFLMAO!
Mnemosyne
You mean do-gooders like the Bush Administration, with its insistence on worldwide abstinence-only education and the Global Gag Rule? Or are you one of those people who thinks that telling married people they should be abstinent will totally cut the birth rate?
TenguPhule
Yes, he did piss off many people with that.
On the other hand, using his visit as an excuse for suicide bombings, lynchings and home murders was beyond belief.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
@liberal:
"But then you are involved. You’re saying you refuse to act against the status quo. If I read you right, you’re saying you not only won’t lobby the US government to get us uninvolved (out of despair that you’re influence will be too small)—-you also refuse to.
"Or maybe you’re too stupid to understand that the status quo is that the US government itself is heavily involved, on the side of Israel.
"Then again, with all the pottymouth drivel you like to type, it’s not clear to me you understand anything."
So much meaningless drivel, just to get out of writing up a simple list. I’ve asked you to enumerate the many conflicts for which you feel I’m personally morally responsible. Please, take your time.
While you’re at it, you can also write up an essay proving how I’m personally responsible for American policy toward Israel. You can also explain to me how my decision to remain personally neutral can be reconciled with your position of outright anti-Israeli hostility.
You appear to be suffering from some sort of mental defect that makes you view our positions as identical; they’re not. I’m washing my hands of the leadership of both sides, not just Israel. Or are you going to accept personal responsibility the next time a Hamas suicide bomber blows up a schoolbus full of 12-year-olds? To follow your semi-lucid, possibly inebriated "rationale," that’s not too different from what you’ve accused me of. I live in a country that supports Israel; ergo, I personally support each and every thing Israel does. You cheerlead the destruction of one side, exclusively; ergo, you assume ownership of all the nice things your "team" does.
It helps make sense of this if you’re really really stupid, 15 years old, or (as I suspect in your case) both.
kay
@Brick Oven Bill:
You write like the Lutherans here when the German Catholics arrived. There was wide-spread panic over birth rates, among the First Families. It all worked out. They’re pillars of the local community, and they’re down to 2.5.
Now they all fear-monger on the Mexicans. Babies! Scary babies!
Comrade Stuck
@liberal:
By proxy, yes. And by advocating a complete disengagement and financial support from a 60 year ally (like it or not), you are giving a wink and nod to the destruction of a state and sanctuary for a people who would certainly be exterminated by the likes of Hamas and the rest of the region. What echoes of history does such a position make?
Brick Oven Bill
Pretty much the whole lot of them Mnemosyne. If we were to project historical population trend lines, there would be around 1.2 billion people today.
Mnemosyne
As was using his visit as an excuse to use live ammunition on rioters. But I guess if you’re used to making excuses for everything Israel does while condemning everything the Palestinians do, then you wouldn’t see any possible reason why inciting a riot and then firing live ammunition at the rioters might make them kind of mad.
In my really paranoid moments, I think that Sharon and Arafat colluded to get the results they both wanted, but then that might mean the Israelis weren’t completely innocent and the Palestinians weren’t pure evil, so that couldn’t possibly be the case. Right?
TenguPhule
We also finance aid to the Palestinians. Directly and indirectly through Israel and other sources.
So what? Shall we cut funding to both?
Wanna see who suffers first and hardest?
TenguPhule
Yes, it was fucking criminal. Now explain to me again why this demanded bombing malls instead of, I dunno, going after the soldiers who were shooting?
liberal
@Scruffy McSnufflepuss:
Last time I checked, your tax dollars fund Israel’s military.
Not entirely: your tax dollars pay for the military actions of Israel’s leaders.
Huh? Last time I checked, my tax dollars didn’t go to fund Hamas. Not much, anyway. Most of the tax dollars I pay that get sent to that region go to Israel and (next) Egypt.
I don’t cheerlead the destruction of any side.
I’m quite confident that I’m far more intelligent than you are, thank you very much.
Let me put it to you this way, so even someone as dimwitted as you can understand:
Either:
(a) There is no such thing as collective responsibility, in any degree. In that case, you’re not responsibile for the US gov’s actions. At the same time, however, most of those living in those houses you cast pox at are also innocent and not responsible. In which case, you’re apparently heartened by the death of innocents. Or,
(b) There are degrees of collective responsbility. In which case you’re partly responsible, because your tax dollars fund one party to the conflict, and you refuse to agree to even a symbolic act of disassociation from the conflict.
liberal
@Comrade Stuck:
Well, for starters, there’s no mutual defense treaty between the US and Israel. Furthermore, at the beginning of Israel’s existence, the US itself wasn’t all that involved. So it’s not "60 years".
Secondly, by your logic, one could argue that it was proper for us to fund the French war effort in Indochina, circa 1954. France was a long-standing ally, etc etc etc.
And I’m not for "complete disengagement" from Israel. For example, I don’t think we should cut off trade, diplomatic relations, etc. I just don’t see why we should be giving them on the order of a few percent of their GDP every year.
Huh? How is Israel going to be exterminated by anyone? They have by at least an order of magnitude the most powerful military in the region. They have the strongest economy in the region. (Yes, the Saudi’s have lots of petrodollars, but they don’t have much of an economy beyond mineral wealth extraction.) Finally, they have 200 or so nuclear weapons.
Cassidy the Racist White Man
Wilfred is a liar. He said he was leaving and then kept posting. Lying piece of shit…
liberal
@TenguPhule:
LOL, given (a) the population sizes, (b) the actual dollar amounts we give, (c) the relative wealth of the two.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
@liberal:
"Last time I checked, your tax dollars fund Israel’s military."
Last time I checked, they funded the Palestinians, too. So?
"Not entirely: your tax dollars pay for the military actions of Israel’s leaders."
As I’ve repeatedly requested, I need a list of every cause for which I’m personally morally culpable. You’ve already listed Israel and (by implication, although you were too dishonest and/or stupid to admit it) the Palestinians. Please, name every other conflict and genocide for which I am personally morally culpable.
"I don’t cheerlead the destruction of any side."
Except Israel.
"I’m quite confident that I’m far more intelligent than you are, thank you very much."
Hahahaha! Well, I guess that settles it, then! And you’ve proven it by your stunningly brilliant posts too, jackass.
"Let me put it to you this way, so even someone as dimwitted as you can understand:
Either:
(a) There is no such thing as collective responsibility, in any degree. In that case, you’re not responsibile for the US gov’s actions. At the same time, however, most of those living in those houses you cast pox at are also innocent and not responsible. In which case, you’re apparently heartened by the death of innocents."
Demonstrable illiteracy. Please point out where I cheered on the destruction of innocents. The common citizens of both sides have about as much say over what Hamas/Olmert do as I have over my own government’s actions. But, have fun attacking that straw man your brilliance has enabled you to construct.
"Or,
(b) There are degrees of collective responsbility. In which case you’re partly responsible, because your tax dollars fund one party to the conflict, and you refuse to agree to even a symbolic act of disassociation from the conflict."
Ooh, this is fun. By that amorphous, bullshit standard, we’re all somewhat responsible, by refusing to do whatever meaningless action you decide we should do in protest. I’m going to up your ante, and call for self-immolation as being a much more effective and meaningful level of protest than calling Congresscritters. Clearly, anyone who doesn’t roast themselves alive in protest at the government’s policies is personally morally responsible for those policies.
Tell me, how many Americans have to burn themselves alive in protest at their government’s policies before my personal guilt-shame at the Bush Administration’s decision to fund Israel (and the Palestinian Authority) is expunged?
I’m overwhelmed by the brilliance of your dissertation on collective responsibility. You’re clearly the smartest person on the blog. Tell me, how many years until you graduate high school?
Comrade Stuck
@liberal:
No treaty, because until GWB came along, it has been our policy to act as a mediator between parties, and that has produced at least some good results ie Israel/Egypt/Jordan treaty’s, as well as talking down Israel from doing stupid shit like now in GAza.
Everyone knows that the US is committed to Israel’s continued existence. Think of it more as a National Handshake between we and Israel. And I think many Arab’s are also glad we have acted as peace brokers between Israel and the Palestinian’s. Especially since it’s become known about Israel’s nuclear weaponry.
That’s true right now dumbass, but wouldn’t be over time if we stopped military aid. But of course, if we did, Israel would still have their A Bombs for defense. I’m sure that would work out well for the world.
All I can say to this is that you are one simple minded left nutter.
Publicola
@Mnemosyne:
Rabbi Michael Learner of the progressive Bay Area Jewish organization Tikkun argued back in Dec 2001 that the collusion (albeit tacit) was between Sharon and Hamas, as a way to undermine the peace process and the eventual creation of a viable Palestinian state. I don’t know if that was true but I wouldn’t put it past Sharon, and it does go a long way to explain Sharon’s actions at the time against Arafat and the Palestinian Authority.
Mnemosyne
Because, as it shows on the timeline I linked to, by that point the soldiers doing the shooting were doing it from F-16s. Unless you think the Palestinians have a well-developed ground-to-air missile defense system, there weren’t a huge number of options open to them once the air bombardments began.
Which, again, is the problem with this entire situation. For every individual action you can point to, there is an individual action that precipitated it, and unfortunately the chain goes back to Munich 1972 and the Israeli reaction to it at an absolute minimum, and probably further.
Trying to apportion blame to only one side for at least 36 years of back-and-forth is ridiculous. It’s like claiming the British were the injured party in Northern Ireland.
The Grand Panjandrum
@liberal: Josh Marshall was the first blogger to smell a rat in the US Attorney firing’s back in 2006. He and his people doggedly followed up on it. I call that some damn fine investigative journalism.
Publicola
@Mnemosyne:
That chain goes back much further, at least as far back as the pre-Israel British Mandate-era (1917 to 1948) when the British controlled Palestine in the wake of WWI and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
You’re right you know.
TenguPhule
So now we are moving into quibbling about the relative amounts instead of the existance of said aid to the Palestinians?
Progress!
So yeah, who do you think will suffer more for the lack of aid, the Israelis or the Palestinians who also rely on Israel for aid?
TenguPhule
Er, nope. Said timeline showed nothing of the sort.
Nor did it show said incident of shooting at rioters during Sharon’s walk.
And again, this STILL in no way justifies intentionally targeting civilians.
TenguPhule
Cassidy and I are in agreement.
[delurk]...[/delurk]
"Low-ward, won’t you bah me a MUR-say-deez Bends,
Mah frands all drahv Poh-urr-sheez, I must make A-mends…."
Cassidy the Racist White Man
And really? Standing in front of a bulldozer until it runs you over? I don’t care what your cause is, that’s plain dumb. Of course they could sue Disney for propagating the idea that if you believe hard enough you can defeat several tons of moving metal. Damn Care Bears!
TenguPhule
Worse. she was lying down in front of it where the operator allegedly couldn’t see her. Also allegedly she didn’t make any noise that could be heard over the engine until it was too late.
Mnemosyne
From the BBC timeline:
Unless you have a different timeline that shows there was a suicide attack after September 2000 but before May 18, 2001, it looks as though the suicide attacks began after Israel started aerial bombing of Gaza. The timing would suggest that the suicide attacks happened in response to the aerial bombing, but I guess you could argue that they were completely unrelated and came out of the blue since the aerial bombing began a whole two weeks before the first suicide attack and no one could possibly still be angry about something that happened two weeks before.
Cassidy the Racist White Man
Remind me again which bowl game we’re talking about?
TenguPhule
Wasn’t there.
Suicide bombings? You were referencing soldiers shooting rioters, then claiming said soldiers were in F16s.
How odd then that the timeline you referenced showed neither the shooting rioter story nor that Airstrikes began in 2001.
Also, why are attacks pre-sharon not mentioned in the timeline?
The ones that helped get Sharon elected in the first place.
TenguPhule
And that Airstrikes began in 2001
*I hate your blogsoftware John*
Mnemosyne
No, I was pointing out that it’s ridiculous to claim that escalation of the second intifada was completely the fault of the Palestinians and that the Israelis were only defending themselves. When you use F-16s to bomb the people who threw rocks at you, you can’t really argue that you were only acting in self-defense.
michilines
It’s time for disinvestment — of Israel, just like South Africa (Israel supported the apartheid regime there longer than any other government.)
Mnemosyne
Ezra Klein has an interesting post that points out that the basic problem is that you have two groups of people who both want to live on the same piece of land. For all of the other trappings and back-and-forth and who-killed-who-first, that’s really what the conflict is: who gets the land. And as I’ve mentioned before, letting right-wing Israeli settlers illegally stay in Palestinian territory is not helping. At all.
michilines
Letting elections go forward when Fatah wasn’t ready is in the laps of Bush and Rice. They asked for this, then they get to say the deaths are on Hamas. They secured that Hamas was elected.
Just Some Fuckhead
Note to Jews: Next time you steal land, take it from the Amish or Quakers. They’ll let ya keep it, and it’s generally better real estate.
Comrade Stuck
@Mnemosyne:
That’s exactly right. Too many people think it’s over religion or race, or whatever. It’s been a fight for the land, albeit with important religious structures and symbols. It’s not like the fighting in Mesopotamia, which has been mostly about religious sectarianism.
And note to mr. jsf. You can’t steal something you have an equal claim to.
michilines
Note to Jews:Next time you buy land, make sure the people you pay money to actuallly own the land.
Not as funny, sorry.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Comrade Stuck: Stuck, yer wrong as usual but it’s a waste to try to explain anything to you because you already know everything. So let’s skip to the end where you get pissed off and call me a dirty leftie or liberal or whatever and storm off.
Comrade Stuck
: @Just Some Fuckhead:
Your the one who’s being a pissy brat. I just calmly responded to your whiny one liner turds that you spit out then run away. In case you didn’t notice, I don’t do that. I’ll stay toe to toe with you for as long as you like. Put up or shut up fuckhead.
Comrade Stuck
That’s what I thought.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Comrade Stuck: C’mon Stuck. You always end it the same way, let’s just skip to the end. That’s the onliest part that matters with you. Say something nasty to me (again) and then storm off.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Heavily reported in the Arab press this morning. So to all the people who wondered how our country is involved, this is how.
This is what America’s ally does for our country.
Comrade Stuck
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Seems like the last time anybody said something nasty and stormed off was you calling me a rightwinger.
(again). When exactly have I ever said anything nasty to you. What’s with the whining anyway. I just stated I thought you couldn’t steal something you already partly owned. Is it that time of month for you fuckhead? Or are you a battered something or other?
michilines
Someone is arguing with himself.
Disinvestment seams to be a good idea.
Comrade Stuck
@michilines:
You and fuckhead make a good team. maybe you could both partner up with wilfred. Unbeatable.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Comrade Stuck: No, Stuck, that was you that stormed off. I can pull the thread if you’d like. You started calling everyone leftists and liberals. I then questioned when did you become a rightwinger (because I couldn’t imagine a leftwinger using those words as insults.) Then you said something nasty to me and later said you were done with the conversation. Then you came back later and apologized for being such an asshat.
Because you do that, ya know. You argue anything just for the sake of arguing, then you blow up, call names and storm off. I’m just saying we can skip to the end and avoid all the tired work.
Sexist too, huh?
michilines
Nice try but fail.
burnspbesq
@demimondian:
Has anyone ever seen Wilfred and Eugene Volokh in the same place at the same time? How can we be certain that they are not one and the same waste of human flesh?
Comrade Stuck
I believe I was arguing with several other people, none of whom where you, about the military and pensions and who should be last. And you dropped in one of your little smartass turd remarks and I returned the favor. Then you shut up and crawled in your hole. You didn’t make an argument of your own, which once upon a time you did. Maybe I’m wrong but I thought this blog was for open and heated debate about politics. It’s the reason I come here. I don’t know why you bother any longer, as all you seem to do is sit on the sidelines and late in the argument throw out a one line,r and when someone disagrees, you have a hissy fit, like right now.
And my apology that night was not for the argument but the anger. Is this your way of debating, when someone admits they got too angry, you use their apology against them.
And BTW, I’m not the only one on this blog who gets aggravated by ideological dogma, left or right.
Laura W
@Comrade Stuck:
PMS and domestic violence jokes from you, Stuck?
I don’t know the history between you two, and I’ll surely regret jumping in here in the morning, but what on earth kind of reasoned response is that?
FWIW, the fact that two of the smartest and funnniest male posters on this whole damn site are sitting around taunting each other with crap like this makes me very sad. VERY sad. Do you not see the irony in all of this?
Maybe we can all go back to day-after-day marathon threads where we solve the whole ME peace issue with our opinions alone, while simultaneously picking each other apart to death.
Fuck.
Honestly.
Crappy New Year and Cheers.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Comrade Stuck: You’ve said about four nasty things to me now and disappeared for about five minutes. Is this the make up stage? Because I adore your snark.
Comrade Stuck
@Just Some Fuckhead:
We didn’t have a conversation. You are full of shit.
Just Some Fuckhead
Damn, now yer double-timing me and still layin on the insults. Yer like a one-man gatling gun.
Comrade Stuck
Poor baby. You are a tender little flower tonight. What are you timing me? Sorry for the slow response. I don’t type very fast and the spelling is a bitch.
Comrade Stuck
@Just Some Fuckhead:
First you whine about me being to slow and now yer whining about me going to fast. Make up yer feeble mind as I am just trying to please.
**I call you nasty stuff cause I like you, you big hunk of Fuckhead you.
and now I am going to finish watching "Traffic " on Showtime, so I won’t be responding for a while. Is that OK? Will you be alright?
Cassidy the Racist White Man
Fuck it. Cut the whole place in half with det cord. Each side gets half.
or
If Bama can come back, the ‘Stines get it.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Comrade Stuck: I like you too Stuck. I like it when we agree without being agreeable.
Cassidy the Racist White Man
Talk about dysfunction…
Laura W
@Just Some Fuckhead: Then my work here is done.
sniff sniff
Just Some Fuckhead
@Laura W: I loved how you intervened and made it all better despite battling horrific back pain and a deep hatred for Michael Vick. You are truly an inspiration to anyone that ever wanted to make a difference.
*hang dog look*
Get it? Ha!
Laura W
@Just Some Fuckhead:
No.
Are you mocking me?
…
…
…
Get it? HA!
Comrade Stuck
@Cassidy the Racist White Man:
That’s precious coming from you.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Laura W: It was a Michael-Vick-hangs-dogs joke. I’ll keep working on it til it’s a surefire gutbuster.
TWBay, arefulcay noay hetay alktay boutaay ockingmay. ouYay nowkay howay is talkingsay hetay hreadstay!
Laura W
@Just Some Fuckhead: Oh man. The hanging ref. went so under my head!
As for the rest, thanks, and whatever.
Comrade Stuck
@Laura W:
Guess I’m just evil. Nobody’s perfect.
Laura W
@Comrade Stuck: You are not evil and you are not perfect.
But you are better than that.
I knows it.
Good night.
Really. I mean it this time.
(My "E" key is sticking. This is very annoying. Hope it unsticks by the time I wake up because do you know that "E" is in almost every word we type???)
TenguPhule
Note to Palestinians: If you want mercy, show some next time.
TenguPhule
Well fuck you for a liar.
Hey wilfred, you have a new buddy on the liar’s list!
wilfred the shoe thrower
I pity the Phule – his narrative is in a state of free fall – even Cole linked to sites that challenge it.
Now Americans wake up to find themselves involved in the war. Poor Obama!
Hey, how about some more Rachel Corrie jokes?
TenguPhule
I admit, I am not a good enough person to stop tormenting the poo-flinging monkey.
wilfred the shoe thrower
Phule, you’ve got a keen mind, maybe you can help me with this. it was posted on another blog I frequent:
Seems like a pretty fair analogy. What is the official jewish position/level here?
And do you have any more Rachel Corrie humor?
Cassidy the Racist White Man
@Just Some Fuckhead: I’ve admitted to my various issues quite some time ago. I have nothing to hide and no shame. But I do have plenty of zoloft.
Publicola
@Comrade Stuck:
It is a fight over land, yes, but it’s a fight over religion too. The Israeli settler movement would not exist where it not for fundi-extremist Jews who started and are the backbone of the Israeli settlements – they believe it is God’s will for them to settle and control all of the Biblical Holy Land as they believe was promised to them by God to bring about the Messiah.
fundi-extremist Jews are aided and abetted in their mission from God to "settle" the West Bank and elsewhere by fundi-extremist Christians who believe that said land needs to settled and controlled by Jews to bring the return on the Messiah.
These religious fundamentalists are in turn opposed by fundi-extremist Muslims who believe it is God’s will that what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories instead become an Islamic Republic.
For those interested in reading more, Israeli journalist Gershom Gorenberg explains it all in frightening clarity — it’d instead by a comedy if it wasn’t real — in The End of Days: Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount – highly recommended.
And again so it goes.
Comrade Stuck
@Publicola:
You are right.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Actually, that’s not correct. Hamas is not Taliban, or even Salafi. It’s more of a non-secular ultra nationalist group than a fundamentalist one; the main difference being that it believes in the nation state, unlike the more extreme Muslim fundamentalist groups.
An excellent take on the players on both sides can be read in this article, one of the best, accessible papers on the subject I’ve read.
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/Pubs/Display.Cfm?pubID=894
Publicola
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:
Hamas’ goal, as stated in their charter, is the complete destruction of Israel based on what they perceive as their religious duty to carry out God’s will:
Hamas’ goal is then to install an Islamic Republic over historical Palestine based on Sharia (Islamic religious) law, again per what they believe is serving god’s will.
If those goals not establish Hamas as fundi-extremists in your eyes, Wilfred, then suffice to say we have a different definition with respect to what "fundi-extremists" are.
Brick Oven Bill
Wilfred; SSI is an organization through which writers receive income in exchange for providing views acceptable in the current political climate. They use phrases such as ‘operationalizing’. The current political climate, in my opinion, is premised on two falsehoods:
1. Culturalism; and
2. The Qur’an and Hadith do not exist.
I skimmed Sherifa Zuhur’s paper. The introduction does not mention her religion, as this would have been an act of Culturalism-denial. There was also no reference to the texts of the Qur’an. You know, those texts that are used by certain members of the religion of peace to confuse their co-religionists and make them misunderstand the true nature of their religion.
To expose those people trying to distort the true peaceful nature of Islam, here is one passage that Dr. Zuhur could have referenced, there are hundreds:
"4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
People should read the Qur’an.
Publicola
@Brick Oven Bill:
"The true nature of Islam" is in the eye of the beholder, just as it is in Judaism and Christianity. Some take everything in their sacred texts literally, others do not, while others pick and chose.
Here’s a passage from the Bible that instructs parents to kill their children who prophesy — according to your binary logic BOB this would be the "true nature of Christianity":
"Zechariah 13:3": And if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who gave birth to him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the LORD’; and his father and mother who gave birth to him will pierce him through when he prophesies.
People should read the Bible.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Yes, we do. I stated that Hamas is a non-secular ultra nationalist group. Does it matter that its primary motivation is religious rather than secular?
It differs strongly with other groups in the precise fact that its objective is to establish a Palestinian state rather than return to the Caliphate or resurrect the Ottoman Empire, as is clear in the ideology of groups like al Queda. This was the extent of the point I was trying to make.
Besides, what precisely is your point, mistaken as it is, in light of the the inarguable fact that Israel is the self-proclaimed Jewish state, filled with many of its own ultra-religous groups determined to reclaim all of Palestine, and beyond, in the name of religous, geographical determinism?
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Well it’s clear that you have and since i certainly don’t know anything about that I’ll have to defer to your scholarship. I do wonder sometimes, if Israel isn’t following the guidelines of its own religion. I just saw on the news that they bombed a mosque during the evening prayer and killed 16 worshippers. So:
Do you think some people in the Israeli military might be religious and and desirous to follow what their God says?
Then there’s this:
If the Israelis get rid of all the men, boys and deflowered women do you think they will distribute the virgins?
Brick Oven Bill
Publicola’
There is no doubt that the Bible calls gays abominations, invokes the name of God in genocide, and authorizes the death penalty for adultery. But, if you honestly read both the Bible and Qur’an, and have the strength to be objective, you will find that they are not comparable texts.
One key distinction is that the Bible renders on to Caesar what Is Caesar’s. Compare and contrast with 33:21.
There is the theology, and there is the biology, if we are allowed to say that. Modern history seems to indicate that not all populations handle religion the same way. Educated Westerners tend to move away from religion.
Ahmedinejad is a civil engineer, Atta was a civil engineer, Bin Laden (the worst guy ever) was a wealthy contractor, the flaming airport Englishmen were medical doctors, the-blow-up-the planes-over-the-Atlantic college youth were studying chemistry, Al-Zawaheri is a medical doctor.
Perhaps education is the answer.
Publicola
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:
What matters with respect to my stating that Hamas is a fundi-extremist group is that they believe it is God’s will and their religious duty to destroy Israel and replace it with a republic that is governed by Islamic law.
Which is irrelevant with respect to whether Hamas is a fundi-extremist group. There are Christian fundi-extremist groups that differ strongly with each other too, as is also the case with Jewish fundi-extremist groups. They are all nonetheless fundi-extremist groups.
That there are Jewish fundi-extremist groups in Israel who are determined to reclaim all of historical Palestine and beyond is of course true – as I had already stated in comment #252.
My point, which I already made in comment #252, is that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not just a fight over land but a fight over religion too, with religious fundi-wingnuts of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim variety all contributing substantially to keeping alive and inflaming said conflict.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Gee, isn’t that from the Christian part?
I agree with that. The original charter of the PLO was completely secular; it doesn’t even mention Islam. A large part of the rise of Hamas was the fact that it was, and is, a sensible reaction to the religious fervor of the Israeli settler movement. Fatah could do nothing to stop the settlements, which undermined the legitimacy of a secular resistance and corresponding nationalism.
When the final history is written the funding of the settlements since Bush 41 first denied the israelis 10 billion dollars in loan guarantees for construction will mirror the ascendancy of Hamas.
Publicola
@Brick Oven Bill:
The Bible’s "Render unto Caesar…" has many interpretations; it does not necessarily mean separation of church and state.
Moreover, that quote is from the New Testament. The Old Testament — the first five books of which are known in Judaism as the Torah — gives no indication at all that there should be separation of church and state; to the contrary much of the Old Testament, especially in Kings, Chronicles, and the book of Daniel, is about the establishment of a theocratic state to serve the LORD. As such, some fundi-wingnuts from both the Christian and Jewish varieties reject separation of church and state altogether and instead seek to install theocratic governments based on their interpretations of God’s will; others seek to have at least some theocracy in their governments. (Which is what exists in Israel now; arguably in US and European nations too, but less so.)
I will agree that the Qur’an is more clear on that point, at least in contrast to the New Testament – in the Qur’an, like the Old Testament/Torah, there is no separation of church and state. A modern interpretation of the Qur’an that allows one to be a Muslim and still support separation of church and state exists, however – many moderate Muslims maintain interpretation, as does the Turkey Republic. (After the Ottoman empire fell in WWI and Turkey became a republic a strict separation of church and state was installed there. Recently there has been some moving back towards a theocratic elements in the government; Turkey however is still a mostly secular state.)
Which is to say, while a literal interpretation of the Qur’an does not allow for a secular state, a liberal and non-literal interpretation does. Which is also to say, again, that the "true nature of Islam" is in the eye of the beholder, just as is the case with Christianity and Judaism.
Publicola
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:
If you remove the word "sensible" from the above then we are in agreement here.
That’s one of the interesting things about George H. W. Bush – he is the only U.S. President to date who has actually tried to stop Israeli settlement expansion by making U.S. "aid" conditional upon Israel stopping settlement expansion. Too bad that, at the end of the day, it didn’t fly politically and Bush Sr. had to back down, because I agree that Israeli settlement expansion has played a key role in the ascendancy of Hamas.
Brick Oven Bill
Points taken publicola; But, unlike the Bible, Islam offers nothing for non-Muslims other than ‘protection’ (from whom?). And the elements of force within it cause it to be self-purifying.
Ataturk crushed this self-purification with State force. Now, in the absence of force against the Islamists, Turkey is returning to its religion. The ban on head scarves has just been lifted, I think. Islam will return to Iraq in the absence of Saddam.
The system is designed to eventually install itself as state religion, as in the Hamas Charter, Article One:
Article One:
The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement’s programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.
It is tough to resist this ideology when we are not allowed to criticize it. Hamas is a religious group, not terrorists, if we grant Islam the status of a ‘religion’. Iraq has the same language in its Constitution. We have dumb leadership.
Publicola
@Brick Oven Bill:
Unlike the Koran, the Old Testament and the Torah don’t even offer to ‘protect’ those who are not of their faith.
Related: Did you know that according to Jewish law a person who has threatened the lives of Jews can be killed extrajudicially – and that according to some interpretations if other means to stop the threat have not worked or are not available it is then one’s religious duty to do so?
This is how and why Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated. A Jewish Israeli fundi-wingnut allied with the Israeli settler fundi-wingnuts believed that Rabin’s signing of the Oslo Peace Accords harmed Jews to the point of threatening their lives, and that therefore this Jewish wingnut believed that it was his religious duty to assassinate Rabin, which he did.
Is that the "true nature of Judaism"? Most Jews would of course say no but again that is in the eye of the beholder.
Way too simplistic, in my opinion. I believe the EU’s refusal to allow Turkey into the Union has played a significant role there, as has Bush’s foreign policies. And that said Turkey is still fundamentally a secular state, with much of the population there still supporting complete separation; there is little support for a complete return to Islamic law.
The Islamic system that is believed and practiced by Islamic fundamentalists, yes.
Who says we are not allowed to criticize it? For what it’s worth I am a strong critic of all fundamentalist religious ideologies, including Islam’s.
Of course Islam is a religion; it’d be absurd to suggest otherwise. And Hamas is a both a religious group and a terrorist organization – the two are not mutually-exclusive.
Brick Oven Bill
Points taken again publicola; I am not familiar with fundamentalist Jewish movements and did not know that. Yes, of course Islam is a religion. But it also includes military and political systems to create a Total System which, in my opinion, challenges the foundations of our Constitution in a way that the Old Testament does not.
The reference to Islam’s ‘status as a religion’ is because I do not know if the doctrine of the Qur’an is compatible with the Constitution, or these imaginary democracies that our leadership is trying to install around the world. I do not know how you can install one political system as a sub-set of another political system.
Publicola
@Brick Oven Bill:
Fundamentalist Islam challenges our Constitution, to be sure. But so do many if not most forms of fundamentalist Christianity, which here in the U.S. I regard as a far higher threat to our Constitution.
Related: In Israel there is no Constitution. It’s not that they haven’t tried – ever since Israel’s founding efforts have been made to give Israel a democratically-adopted constitution. Said adoption has been blocked by many fundi-Jews, however, who continue to reject the assertion that a secular Constitution is superior to the Torah and Jewish law. (In its place there are a set of "Basic Laws" which the judiciary has created over the years – this is often incorrectly referred to as Israel’s constitution.)
John S.
@publicola:
Ironically, one of the most fundamentalist of the Christian sects – Jehovah’s Witnesses – are fiercely apolitical. Other than their unwillingness to vote or serve in the military, I hope you don’t view THEM as a threat to our constitution.
Publicola
@John S.:
No – it’s the fundis (and their allies) who seek to undermine the separation of church and state that I view as a threat to our Constitution.