In my e-mail box this morning, the following hysterical gibberish:
Do the folks at the Opinion Times have sex with goats? One wonders. This directs you to the following thoughtful essay at the aforementioned Opinon Times:
The incoming Obama administration will open up talks with Hamas. Right at the point where the terror group has been backed into a corner in Gaza by Israel, Barack Obama throws out a lifeline.
Obama transition team members have sent a message through the media today that when Obama takes office in 12 days, he will instruct our intelligence services to open a secret dialog with Hamas. Instead of running scared as they have for the last week or so, all Hamas need do now is hunker down for a few more days and wait for the incoming American administration to save their hides. And, alas, poor Israeli families in Beersheva will continue to suffer under the terrible rocket attacks from Gaza.
For the last six years, Democrats have been seeking to undermine the Bush administration’s efforts to fight the war on terror. Now Israel is once again fighting its own war on terror, and Barack Obama puts hope into what has certainly been a dispirited Hamas.
This smells like the precursor to a foreign policy disaster.
The report mentioned above is in the Guardian, and the Obama team is already denying the leak. For me, the only question is who is planting the leak- is it just wingnut conservatives trying to hamstring the Obama foreign policy, or is it pro-Israel groups trying to box Obama in and move him towards a more pro-Israel by forcing him to slap down Hamas with vigorous denials about this report?
At any rate, two thoughts. First, unless my memory is completely gone, Obama has said he will of course talk to Hamas provided they recognize Israel as a state and that they stop committing acts of terrorism (like, for example, chucking rockets indiscriminately at civilians in Israel). Hamas has done neither.
Second, if the Obama team was going to send a secret message to Hamas, would he really choose to do it through the UK Guardian?
*** Update ***
And now that I have thought about it- even if the sources are correct, so what? How could things possible be any worse for Palestians and Israel than they are right now? Folks in Israel live in constant fear that the next person who walks into their pizza shop or enters their bus could be wearing a bomb, or that at any minute while they are sleeping a rocket could come crashing down on them. Folks in Gaza have nothing going for them and are being massacred. How could things get worse?
sgwhiteinfla
John Cole
I wondered if you had seen this report.
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/summary.cfm?q=894
Its from the US Army War College and was published just before Christmas. I won’t speak any more on the subject since we got off on the wrong foot the other day but I thought you might want to read this if you hadn’t already.
Balconesfault
As Lieberman breaking bread with John Hagee showed, there is a convergence there that makes the distinction irrelevent.
Yeah, because they were just going to quit and disassemble if there was no hope of conducting talks with the US. And OU quit last night in the 4th quarter because they got a message that Antonin Scalia wouldn’t intervene.
cleek
fuck Israel
Jennifer
Funny how "Opinion Times" fails to note that it is George W. Bush who is entirely to blame for Hamas’ political control of the Palestinian territories, first by pushing for elections when he was warned repeatedly by Fatah and the Israelis that Hamas would win, and then by implementing an Iran-Contra 2.0 plot to arm Fatah…who, upon defeat, had those arms seized by Hamas. Yes, kids, it’s likely that the shells Hamas has been raining down upon Israeli territory were provided by none other than George W. Bush. You can read all about it is this article from last April.
I had been saying since the financial meltdown in September that Bush still had at least one major-league fuckup left in him before he left office (and uncounted minor and middling fuckups). This is it.
Josh Hueco
@cleek:
BOHICA, with "It" meaning "Another 300+ post shit-flinging Israel-Palestine Intarwebz Flame War."
John, you really know how to get Fridays off to a good start, don’t you?
TheHatOnMyCat
I think you misspelled "Onion Times."
Who reads this shit?
dmsilev
How does one send a "message about secret negotiations" in the pages of a major newspaper? The whole "leak it to the press" idea is sort of contradictory to the whole "keep it a secret" thing.
-dms
Svensker
The question is, will he negotiate with Israel while they are committing genocide?
cleek
you start by writing an article that will attract the attention of the person you want to communicate with. if your target is a person known for an insatiable appetite, you might write a story about a the world’s biggest pizza. then you arrange the story’s layout so that the first letters of each line combine to form a message. voila!
KCinDC
Can we find some other terminology to use in place of "pro-Israel" to refer to policies designed to keep Israel in endless war and ensure that the country is hated? It doesn’t seem very "pro" to me.
Balconesfault
@KCinDC: Especially if you’re anti-semitic by (neocon) definition if you’re not pro-Israel by (neocon) definition.
Joe Buck
Actually, I hope that some kind of back channel is opened to Hamas. Getting a peace agreement in Northern Ireland required talking to the IRA and to the unionist terrorist leader, Ian Paisley.
To make peace, you need to talk to the people actually doing the fighting, even if they are bad guys.
Joshua
Maybe I’m crazy, but isn’t the best time to enter negotiations when you’ve got your opponent backed into a corner? I mean, that means that you hold all the cards and your opponent has to agree to everything you demand or face destruction. And if they still don’t give in? Well, they’re in the damned corner and you can destroy them.
Seems to me that Israel is more likely to get what they want by forcing concessions from Hamas than annihilating them outright and not having anybody to deal with afterwards.
Xanthippas
Genius.
Zifnab
@KCinDC:
Pro-Middle East Military Industrial Complex? I’m sure I could rephrase that into a clever acronym, but I’m lazy.
The Moar You Know
Do I have a twelve-inch schlong? One wonders.
Don
Exactly where is Hamas supposedly "running scared" TO?
4tehlulz
@KCinDC: Will "tools of the Christards" work?
Napoleon
Correct, which makes the Bush administrations refusal to talk to Iran in the immediate aftermath of the initial phase of the Iraq war, when they approached us with an offer to a "Grand Bargain" negotiation, all that much more inexplicable.
cleek
Defender of
Israel’s
Continued
Killing
Keith
Three words: Joe the Plumber
Jeff
@Svensker: Doesn’t genocide mean there is a reduction in population not growth. It’s hyperbole like that on both sides that is part of the problem.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Way behind the curve. Take a look at Greenwald’s post on the subject.
The Moar You Know
@Keith: Since both Israel and Palestine seem hungry for blood, I wonder if we couldn’t offer up ol’ Joe as a sacrifice? They get blood, we get rid of Joe, his tax debt is written off – I don’t see a downside here, people.
Comrade Dread
The Israelis could elect George Bush as their president and Dick Cheney as their minister of Justice.
As ignoring, isolating, and railing against Fatah gave us Hamas, this war could damage Hamas and incite the surviving Palestinians to the extent that worse Islamicist elements like Al Qaeda look like a more attractive option.
Emma Anne
@KCinDC:
I use pro-Likud, myself. I have some Israeli friends and they are as lefty and sensible as I am. More so probably.
Tsulagi
You should know the Wingnut two-step dance.
Under an R-admin, sending sergeants with millions in cash in suitcases to pay off Sunni tribes who’ve killed US soldiers equals brilliance in the GSAVE and starbursts radiating out from The Surge success.
Under a D-admin, our intelligence services talking to Hamas asking what they could do to get them to stop their pissant impotent rocket attacks so we could legitimately ask or lean on Israel to stop sending JDAMs up their stupid assess equals proof that Democrats not only hate America, but Israel too.
TenguPhule
Fixed.
David Hunt
Well, this "low-level" conflict could erupt into all-out war between Israel and various Mid-East Islamic Nations. Unless something is done to stop the cycle of violence, I expect that to happen again within my lifetime.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
I never quite get this kind of thing. Here we have Gaza compeletly blockaded, as it has been for 18 months, with everyone – Fatah, Hamas, Christians, subjected to the same conditions, regardless of political orientation.
If all Palestinians are responsible for Hamas (qed) then all israelis are responsible for their government, and all Americans are responsible for theirs.
No one believes in such distinctions anymore. The people who wanted a war of civilizations have got one.
TenguPhule
It’s the Middle East. OF COURSE it’s going to get fucking worse.
Cris
Exactly. That’s why McCain’s attempts to use Obama’s commitment to negotiation was a dead end. A lot of us want negotiation.
And thank you for mentioning Ireland. Every time I hear "You don’t negotiate with terrorists," I reply, "Belfast Agreement."
HeartlandLiberal
My wife pointed out to me the other day what is so blindingly obvious about Israel’s actions.
This is the last gasp favor of the Bush administration to Israel, and one last effort by Bush and Cheney to trigger a friggin’ holocaust and wider war in the Middle East, drawing in even Iran.
It has been many years since I felt any sympathy towards or reason to support Israel, as I have watched it in the past 2-3 decades slide steadily into the same sort of fascist mentality and actions that characterized the Nazis. The turning point for me was when they started razing entire Palestinian villages, a la the Nazis in Czechoslovakia.
I have come to the conclusion Israelis do not possess mirrors. They certainly have not looked at themselves in a long time to see what they have become. Mass murderers of women and children who are continuing the Bush / Cheney policy of doing everything possible to make every single Muslim in the World hate our guts forever. This administration, and now Israel, have been the greatest recruiters to the cause of militant, insane rightwing violent Islam one could have asked for.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Are you actually suggesting that they are undergoing the same hardship and suffering?
Goddamn, Cole.
The Other Steve
I was watching CBS morning show, and Harry Smith asked something of Bloomberg about Israel. I didn’t quite catch the question but it seemed to be questioning some of the AIPAC preconceived notions because Bloomberg sounded kind of defensive.
I don’t think these guys quite realize that their over the top attacks are FAIL.
Cris
No.
If the group you are targeting continues to grow, it doesn’t mean you’re not committing genocide, it just means you’re not very effective at it.
Martin
Let’s not lose sight of the fact that the desired endgame for neocons is Islamic genocide. Anything that involves talking over killing isn’t going to go over well with them.
The Hamas problem can’t be solved by either Israel or the U.S. Hamas will never recognize Israels right to exist based on arguments or bombs from either nation. Israel (like anyone) cannot tolerate a neighbor whose official position is that they should be destroyed. We can possibly talk Hamas down to a limited peace stance, but we need to engage with Egypt, Iran, Russia, and other influencing states if Israel is ever going to get out of this situation. Attacking Gaza is pointless from a long-term perspective as it only dims further theprospects of the people living there, and if you have no prospects with a neighbor you haven’t yet destroyed, maybe you will if you manage to destroy them. They need to see another path. Israel really doesn’t have another path to offer them, nor do we. I think Israel is fully aware that this won’t yield anything in the longer term, but what alternative do they have? They gave Gaza quite a lot in 2006 and didn’t get much in return. I’m not excusing Israel’s behavior, but I’m pretty sure that Americans would be demanding action of our government if Mexico was firing rockets into the U.S.
Cris
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian:
Oh, yeah, that’s exactly what he is suggesting. I can’t see any other way to interpret it.
Martin
I don’t think that, but I agree in part – Israel sees that this is their last free ride for at least 4 years. They just bought bunker-busters from us a few months ago, so this has been in the planning for a while.
I don’t think a wider war is the goal, but I expect under Obama and a Democratic Congress that Israel will have to work a LOT harder to do this kind of stuff.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Yeah, that’s correct. It’s not even militant or insane but the growing awareness that this really is a war against Muslims, if not Islam per se; a fine distinction suitable for a jesuit.
Jihad is incumbent on all Muslims in only one condition: When Islam and the Muslims are under attack. Personally, I don’t see any meaningful argument against this anymore.
It has reached the point where Obama has said he will make a major speech declaring that the United States is not at war with Islam.
This is not a pipe.
cleek
i thought it was pretty cool that Jon Stewart (nee Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz) came out and asked "WTF" about the fact that the consensus in DC w.r.t. Israel seems to have nothing to do with the opinions of the voters who put them there.
Abe Fucking Lincoln
I no longer give two shits whether it’s good for Israel or not – they could give a rat’s ass whether it’s good for the US. It’s time we start making US policy in the Middle East based on US interests, and not based on a Muslim/Zionist religious war.
Cris
@Martin:
You do? I don’t know crap about crap, but I have the impression that our two major parties have firm bipartisan agreement on tolerance for Israel’s excesses.
John Cole
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian: Quit being such a god damned troll.
@Cris: I do not expect our mideast policy to change too much, either. The focus is just going to be elsewhere (see economy).
jibeaux
Joe the Plumber could…
Oh. Never mind.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
@John Cole:
Piss off. You only come to when someone has the temerity to note that you’ve made yet another asinine remark.
Now Glenn Greenwald – there’s a troll for you.
jibeaux
I think cutting aid to Israel would be win-win, considering that we need all the money we can get right now, but I don’t think it would actually change anything for quite a long time. If there’s anything Israel is going to continue to fund, its their defenses. I think it’s going to play out as it has before in this, the oldest established conflict in the world, that each side will think that the only way they can get through to the other side is with violence, and it will continue to horrify the rest of the world as they become increasingly entrenched in their positions, until such point as the violence finally becomes unacceptable to them — which is a point rather further down the road than it is acceptable to the outside world. At which point, and only at that point, will there be a grudging and reluctant cease-fire or some sort of temporary peaceful arrangement, until the next provocation.
The maddening little maraschino cherry on top is that the broad outlines of what a peace accord would look like, with its tough but doable compromises, are known. It would be nice to short-circuit over to it without the endless cycles of violence.
onceler
why the instant reaction that talks with Hamas would be inherently bad? I don’t think this report has been denied so much as it has been qualified. they’re not opening political negotiations, they are suggesting initiating the most basic of low-level ‘talks’, about potential talks to have in the future maybe one day. and again, why would this be seen as even remotely bad? can we stop taking advice from neocons yet? these people are Israel fetishists with NO actual real knowledge about the cultural history, dynamics or demographics of the situation there. their POV is useless, at best, and very dangerous at worst.
Krista
I tend to stay out of the discussions regarding Israel and Palestine, as I’m really not very well-informed about the entire thing.
However, while watching the news, it really struck me when I found out that Israel was not allowing any access by any foreign journalists. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but if the Israeli government truly thought that they were doing the right thing and acting in good faith, would they be that convinced that they, and only they, could put a positive spin on what they’re doing?
John Cole
@wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian: No, I am just sick and tired of you intentionally interpreting everything I say in the most uncharitable manner possible, and then trolling from that point on.
And Glenn Greenwald’s site is thattaway.
David Hunt
But if we do that, we can’t keep pushing toward the massive Middle-East war that will initiate the End of Days and bring back Jesus!
I wish I was joking about the thinking that drives some of these people. I sometimes seriously believe that Bush’s actual exit strategy with Iraq was the Rapture.
Jeff
And Godwin we have a winner. The fastest way to get Israelis to ignore you is to compare them to Nazis.
Bob In Pacifica
Svensker, I am having trouble with the bandying about of the word "genocide". Yes, Israel is bombing and attacking targets in Gaza and are killing a lot of people along the way. Wars do that. Genocide implies a policy of the intentional destruction and mass murder of a group of people. You know, like Hitler did.
I don’t get the drift that Israel is planning on killing all Palestinians in Gaza. Just trying to neuter Hamas’ rocket capabilities.
So when you use the word "genocide" you could say that the person who straps on a bomb and walks into a grocery store and blows himself up is committing genocide. He doesn’t even have specific military goals. He just wants to kill Jews.
I’d suggest that using the word "genocide" in this current disgusting killing is inaccurate and glosses over the issues.
I’d also say that when Hamas fires their Qassam rockets into Israel, the rocketeers were not aiming at military targets since those rockets can’t be aimed with any accuracy at all. So they were attempting to… KILL JEWS!
If a fool keeps getting beaten up by a bully in the bar and he gets up again and again and pokes the bully in the ribs and gets his face smashed eventually the fool owns his bloody nose. Hamas owns this invasion and owns the deaths of the people in Gaza along with Israel. Call it a co-ownership.
The Israelis have blockaded Gaza because of the rocket attacks. So Hamas responds with… rocket attacks! Israel goes in, destroys buildings where the rockets come from, destroys homes of Hamas leaders, destroys the smuggling tunnels. Granted, they kill a lot of innocent people and blow up a lot of other things. So how does Hamas respond? They fire more rockets.
This war is essentially the continuation of World War II. It is an inadeqate reaction to the magical thinking of Nazis who thought that eliminating Jews would solve their economic and social problems.
Now we have Jews believing in the magical thinking that God gave them Israel. No, they stole it, like Europeans stole the New World. And Hamas has the magical thinking that Allah will eventually get back Palestine for them.
The difference is that while the magical thinking of both groups is irrational and false, there is a reality in the Mideast. Israel has a military superior to any possible challenger to their territory. It has a nuclear arsenal that can make Islam glow from Tangiers to Jakarta. The Jews will not be pushed into the sea.
The leadership of Hamas knows this. They know that they will get no help from Egypt, a corrupt and bankrupt regime, or any of the other neighboring countries. They know that firing their Qassams into Israel will not do anything other than eventually provoke Israel to take military action against them. The Israeli action will focus the Palestinian people’s anger against Israel. Being the constant victim is their organizing principle.
Meanwhile, the right-wingers in Israel grow in strength because the people of Israel need to stop the rocket attacks. And so they react to the reaction of the Palestinians. Everybody gets to keep their magical thinking, the dance goes on.
As awful as things are, everyone’s getting what they want, except the people who are dying. Hey, but they’re all going to Heaven. Ain’t religion great!
Abe Fucking Lincoln
@Bob In Pacifica:
It might not fit the precise definition of genocide, but I do find it inexplicable that foreigners have permission to leave Gaza while Palestinians do not. If destroying Hamas’ rockets in Gaza is the Israeli’s goal, I don’t see the rationale in preventing Palenstinians from fleeing the Israeli bombing. Applying the term "concentration camp" to Gaza is not far-fetched.
TenguPhule
*Shrugs*
I blame the Bush admin for showing them how it’s done. I swear, Likud has taken the GOP playbook chapter and verse.
TenguPhule
Two words.
Suicide Bombers.
After the years of terror strikes, concern for Palestinian freedom of movement is probably hovering around zero.
The scars run deep.
BDeevDad
@Abe Fucking Lincoln: Actually, the blockade is game of chicken with the Egyptians. If Egypt opens their blockade, Israel will permanently close their borders with Gaza and say Egypt is responsible for Gaza trade and humanitarian aid. Egypt does not want that responsibility and do not want to work with Hamas.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
@Bob In Pacifica:
The Naqshbandi Sufis tell a story. Here it is:
A thief fell from the window of a house he was trying to break into when the window casement slippe. He landed on the pavement and broke his leg, just as the police arrived. He was brought before the Cadi and sentenced to hang. But being a clever thief he said to the judge, " What about me? My leg is broken. Don’t I deserve some recompense?" The judge conceded the point and summoned the owner of the house. The owner said he was only the owner and didn’t build the house. They brought the builder, who blamed the carpenter, who said it wasn’t his fault but the fault of a beautiful woman who passed by just as he was setting the casement. They brought the woman, who said it wasn’t her – it was obvious she wasn’t so beautiful – but the fault of the tailor who’d made the clothes she was wearing – it was these that had distracted the carpenter. They brought the tailor, who said it wasn’t the clothes but rather their bright beautiful colors that had distracted the thief.
They brought the dyer, who turned out to be the woman’s husband…and the thief. Him they hanged.
Draw your own conclusions.
The answer to Palestine lies with the government of the United States. If nothing changes there, nothing will change in the MIddle East.
TenguPhule
Cole will next ask fish not to swim.
Kyle
I don’t know crap about crap, but I have the impression that our two major parties have firm bipartisan agreement on tolerance for Israel’s excesses.
If the US went to war with Israel, the US Congress would take Israel’s side and we would immediately surrender.
BDeevDad
I don’t get all the talk about Likud. Likud is not in charge or even have any positions of power in the cabinet.
TenguPhule
I have come to the conclusion that you’re either an idiot or have the short term memory of a mayfly.
TenguPhule
Likud is for all intents and purposes running Israeli foreign and military policy right now. Think of them as the GOP, except more competent and more dangerous.
sgwhiteinfla
Here is a clip from the young turks about the I/P conflict
MNPundit
If Obama did undermine Israel that would be interesting.
What value does the Israel-US alliance provide the US and how does that outweigh the disadvantages?
Ack, Sysadmin of Evil
Maybe we can’t stop either the Israelis or the Palestinians from acting like assholes.
But at least we could stop paying them to do it.
Fuck em both. They can’t get along with anyone.
wilfred the shoe throwing Norwegian
Fish? What?
A better analogy would be that he will now ask Rachel Corrie to magically come back to life after being ‘accidentally’ erased by an israeli tractor.
You being a big fan of Rachel Corrie jokes, analogies, etc.
BDeevDad
@TenguPhule: While Livni, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, was a former member of Likud, Barak the Minister of Defense, is a member of the Labor party and calling Livni a Likudnik does not give that term the crazy it deserves.
Zifnab
@MNPundit:
It gives us a great reason to attack Iran. Some would consider that invaluable.
mak
Regarding the original post and your Update:
Actually, I think it’s entirely possible that the Guardian piece was, in fact, leaked by actual Obamans, and I sure hope that was the case.
Think about it: Israel has been slaughtering Gazans for a couple weeks now, with our weapons and moral support, while the entire world (except, of course, for Rapturians, AIPACkers and the US Senate) looks on in horror.
Obama, not wanting to step in it until he absolutely has to, publicly says, rightly, that there’s only one President and foreign policy at a time. It’s not like he’s got nothing else to do. In fact, I am encouraged by the fact that he’s NOT endorsed the present US policy of standing idly by/endorsing the massacre.
Meantime, backstage, who knows what he’s been up to? Obama may have had something to do with getting the US to stop blocking a UN ceasefire resolution, which Israel immediately deems "impractical." And even if he didn’t, the very fact that Dumbya and Condi finally got out of the way tells you that the carnage is really starting to stink up the place.
What would you do? You wouldn’t call a press conference and warn Israel that they’d better cut it out. . . in two weeks. Instead, you’d probably leak to a paper in the UK (where people are actually paying attention to what’s going on there, and freaking out about it) that you intend to keep your campaign promise to end the juvenile "silent treatment" method of diplomacy (in secret, of course, because that’s apparently how you do this shit).
Sounds plausible to me.
TenguPhule
Yes, let us fling murder charges around without evidence and dismiss observations of the obvious as jokes.
Better trolling please.
Svensker
but what alternative do they have? They gave Gaza quite a lot in 2006 and didn’t get much in return. I’m not excusing Israel’s behavior, but I’m pretty sure that Americans would be demanding action of our government if Mexico was firing rockets into the U.S.
Yeah, creating a blockaded ghetto and "putting the Gazans on a diet" — as one Israeli official put it — is really a great way to get people to act peaceful and rational. No food or supplies in, no trade allowed, most Gazans not allowed out. No jobs for the men, women and children starving — something like 45% of Gazan children have ANEMIA from lack of vitamins!!! — and you wonder why the Gazans aren’t just lying back and taking a fucking. During WWII we called the brave Jews who fought back from the Warsaw Ghetto freedom fighters. Now the brave Gazans are fighting back from the Gaza Ghetto and they get called barbaric terrorists.
I would rather not give a shit about the Pal/Israel conflict, except in a general "gee, that’s too bad" kind of way. But since we give Israel $3B in direct aid every year, plus untold billions in military aid, and since the fucking Congress that is supposed to represent the fucking United States of America pledges to kiss Israel’s ass every other minute — see vote of total support yesterday — then I have to fucking care. And don’t forget that 9/11 was a direct result of our support of Israel, at least according to Atta, Khalid S.M., and O.B.L. Israel is acting like the Nazis. They are engaging in ethnic cleansing and war crimes. It is not anti-semitic to say that and it is not crazy to say that. Go read Juan Cole. Go read the Int Red Cross report from yesterday.
I’m sick of it. Sick of the apologists for Israel, sick of the death and dying, sick of paying for it. It is time for Israel to make peace with their neighbors and stop acting like genocidal bullies. If we can’t make them do it, then it is time to take our taxes and our weapons and go home and keep out of it. Israel has nukes. They’re big boys now. Let them act like it.
kay
In my view, this became impossible to defend when Israel went in there with troops. If they’re hitting civilians, and they are, there’s no defense available to them for hit and run. None.
They knew, or should have known, that their presence there came with the duty to aid the civilians they hit. They decided not to do that. That’s when they jumped off a cliff. If they’re blocking aid, and as of yesterday, they appear to be, that’s just falling further, past some point of no return. So, they made it easy, for me, anyway. No defense is available.
sgwhiteinfla
For those who haven’t seen this before this is the report from the International Red Cross on the conditions of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza strip published Dec of 2007. Some facts just can’t be disputed. And keep in mind that conditions have gotten worse since then.
http://www.icrc.org/eng/palestine-report
sgwhiteinfla
For those who haven’t seen this before this is the report from the International Red Cross on the conditions of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza strip published Dec of 2007. Some facts just can’t be disputed. And keep in mind that conditions have gotten worse since then.
http://www.icrc.org/eng/palestine-report
BDeevDad
Do you actually believe they don’t want to? Do you believe Hamas does?
Bob In Pacifica
I hope from what I wrote back a ways that nobody thinks I support Israel’s invasion. I don’t even buy the justification for Israel’s existence. I just acknowledge that it exists with a fuckload of nukes and a big enough army to kick the ass of anyone in the neighborhood.
I’m just saying that if Hamas keeps firing rockets into Israel that Hamas owns the predictable consequences of it.
The strategy isn’t stupid. It is intentional. If they can’t conquer Israel (and they can’t) Hamas wants to have these periodic beat downs by Israel. Being down and kicked is a means to organize their people. They are victims, they hate the Jews, they resort to magical thinking that somehow Allah will straighten things out and give Israel the big payback at some point in the future. For the time being everything can be blamed on the Jews.
Alternatively, what happens if Hamas stops launching rockets into Israel and Israel stops blowing up things in Gaza? Then who’s responsible for the sewage system not working? Who’s responsible for no work and no food? Who’s responsible for their miserable existence on that tiny strip of land? Who’s standing in the way of Allah bringing justice to the world?
So Al Fatah was corrupt. What political entity isn’t corrupt? Al Fatah lost its support because it could no longer blame its inability to solve Palestinians’ problems on Israel.
Blowing up Gaza not only works for the right-wing in Israel, it works for Hamas. How corrupt is it to encourage your people to be killed in order to continue in power?
Cris
A fine suggestion, but the neighbors need to meet them halfway. I can understand being hesitant to pick up an olive wreath and go knocking on the doors of the same folks who ganged up on you the day after you moved into the neighborhood.
HeartlandLiberal
No Godwin here, just Israel razing villages to the ground:
Israel destroys Negev Bedouin village for second time
The Israeli fever of house demolition continues in Shuqba village
Palestinian village faces annihilation
The Wall Destroys Palestine’s Olives, Farmers & Agriculture
There is an entire WikePedia article on the subject:
House demolition in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict
This is not a Godwin. It is a simple fact.
Marshall
Personally, I firmly believe that you negotiate with your enemies. I don’t understand this "don’t talk" BS. Hell, we even talked to Heinrich Himmler just before the end of World War II, to see what he wanted to offer. It’s not who you talk to, it’s what agreements you make that count.
However, I have to point out that experience teaches that, in the Middle East, it is never so bad that it can’t get worse.
Cris
But negotiations go so much more smoothly with your allies!
sgwhiteinfla
From the link I posted at #1
From President Jimmy Carter’s op ed who helped broker the recently expired ceasefire yesterday
Now who didn’t want to negotiate again?
TenguPhule
Many of their jobs were in Israel. They lost those during the suicide bombing waves almost 10 years ago. I doubt many of them would get them back even if the border was reopened today.
So yeah, Hamas got a twofer, kill Palestinian jobs and give them no other employment then fighting.
TenguPhule
Defensive tunnel?
Now who’s kidding who here?
sgwhiteinfla
Yeah I mean why should you believe the guy who actually BROKERED the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in the first place right? LOL