It never stops, does it?
White House reporters for The New York Times predict that the market collapse will force President-elect Barack Obama to abandon for now many of his campaign promises.
If his stimulus plan “doesn’t work out, he may very well be a one-term president,” said Jeff Zeleny, who covered Obama’s campaign. “It’s hard to imagine that he could be reelected if the economy’s in the exact same position four years from now.” (via)
Princeton, N.J.: Most of us far left, anti-war, pro gay marriage, single payer, high marginal tax rates, strong regulation types strongly supported Obama. But he has appointed people who were just wrong, on the war, on regulation, on the economy, on health care, etc. Obviously we have no where else to go, but do you think our lack of enthusiasm will hurt Obama?
Shailagh Murray: Perhaps. The big test will come in the 2010 midterm elections. If folks like you don’t show up, Democrats could suffer some surprising defeats.
I never thought a president elected with such fanfare would prove to be such an obvious failure before even taking office. But there you have it.
It’s hard to say who benefits most from all of this, Rudy Giuliani or Mitt Romney.
Obama still has a chance to save his embattled presidency by naming Mitt to be his auto czar.
Notorious P.A.T.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/13/obama/index.html
I suppose it’s possible that holding a politician’s feet to the fire and making him be a better politician will help prolong his career.
"If Democrats don’t vote in the election, Democratic candidates will suffer". Wow Shailagh, that’s insightful. Just like we’ve come to expect from you.
AhabTRuler
I, for one, am looking forward to the end of the failiure that has been the Obama administration.
Actually, I now am grateful for the brief ‘crack high’ of hope and optimism I experienced after the election, before we sank bank into the depressing reality of the current state of affairs.
harlana pepper
As predicted, everything the repubes have f***ed with a steel hairbrush will be Obama’s fault anyway. It’s already starting – they are laying the groundwork before he has even been sworn in. Yup, that bipartisanshit thingie sure sounds appealin’
Evinfuilt
More good news for
McCainPalin.Comrade Dread
Here I thought you actually had to take office before you could be voted "Worstest President Evah!" but it’s official.
Barack Obama is even more badder than George Bush.
The Stupid… it hurts…
Tsulagi
Don’t forget Sarah!
And when Obama starts flaming snowflake zygotes, Huck’s boat will float up on Jesus tears.
DR
"Most of us far left, anti-war, pro gay marriage, single payer, high marginal tax rates, strong regulation types"
Trolls should really learn how to cover their tracks better….
Gwendy
Who has Obama failed more…anonymous Daily Kos posters, Howard Dean, or the memory of Lincoln?
Charity
I hate people.
Gravenstone
@DR:
Smells more than trifle rat fuckish, no?
dianeb
Obama should resign before his inauguration, to keep from being further disgraced before he’s even in office. That will teach him a lesson.
Ruth
Aren’t the D.C. reporters for NYT also the ones claiming we’re a center-right nation? I don’t declare failure because the same reporters who reported things the occupied WH claimed with straight faces are reporting they’ve got another one on the line.
TheHatOnMyCat
Obama won by almost ten million votes. Obama knows that he doesn’t have to pander to a base, the middle elected him.
The Republicans’ only hope for a future in the near term is to be part of the rescue of the country from an economic trainwreck. That will require them to move to the center and not be obstructionist. I don’t think they are smart enough to do it. These are the people who lost an election to a black first-term Senator named Barack Hussein Obama and lost by what can only be called a landslide under the circumstances. I am not taking away from the huge skill and accomplishment of the winner, but the loser here is without any clue and without any prospects.
Which is, you know, fine with me.
jake 4 that 1
If people actually hop on this paticular bandwagon, this country will have proved it deserves nothing but President Palindrone/Plunger Joe until we’re all reduced to eating rats for Jesus.
@DR: No shit. I bet it had to iron its fingers after typing far left, anti-war, pro gay marriage etc.
Stupid PUMAs.
nitpicker
Princeton N.J. (Version 1885): As a fine upstanding citizen of this here city, I for one would like to try some of that Dr. Johnson’s Fix-It Oil, my good man!…(drinks)…Amazing! My rheumatism is completely gone! What do you think of that, late-19th-Century Shailagh Murray?!
Late-19th-Century Shailagh Murray: I’ve lived in this town all my life and I don’t recognize you, but I see nothing here that should make me question your claim. It appears Dr. Johnson’s Fix-It Oil just might be the medical breakthrough we’ve been waiting for!
Notorious P.A.T.
Really? Is there a law that liberals’ votes don’t count?
The middle sure donated a lot of money and time to his campaign, didn’t they?
Who was supporting Obama early in the primary? The middle? Then, who was supporting Hillary at that time?
DougJ
@TheHatOnMyCat
I don’t think that’s true. They can hope to benefit from a scandal or a terrorist attack.
john b
is there a point in there somewhere?
Ripley
Is it too late to start the impeachment process?
Thank god we have such courageous souls as Shailagh and the like, unafraid to share their opinions with us poor dirt eaters. We are a better nation, thanks to their wisdom and sacrifice.
Seanly
Trolls should really learn how to cover their tracks better…
Agreed, but the funny thing is that I am anti-war, pro gay marriage & supportive of single payer health care, progressive marginal rates & strong regulation. I wouldn’t consider myself far left…
Oh and the best joke will be on all those White House reporters when writing pro-Republican screeds doesn’t help boil their unemployed ass’s shoe leather. I’m so sick of hearing about how all these banks, AIG & investment firms need, need, need $700 billion of US taxpayer’s money, but our failing infrastructure – now there’s a bad investment. Fuck off & die in a fire, you worthless hacks.
These pundits & economists & reporters see no advantage for themselves if we spend money to fix the infrastructure. Bridges that remain standing or improved sewers don’t invite them to the Hamptons or LA premiers. The unskilled & skilled laborers, the consulting engineers, the agency/government workers and the manufacturers all spending the money they’ve made helps the economy, but since they don’t fawn all over the WH reporters or David Brooks or mean old Grinch McConnell it’s a waste & we shouldn’t do it.
Notorious P.A.T.
LOL Nitpicker )
Notorious P.A.T.
In America you are a raging liberal. Literally anywhere else in the industrialized world you would be a run-of-the-mill moderate.
Zifnab
@Comrade Dread:
And the only thing keeping him from getting run out of office on a rail (before he even arrives) is his insistence that we stay the course on policies put forward by Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft.
Where do we find the rocket scientists or neurosurgeons when we’ve got the brightest minds in America writing for our daily periodicals?
Notorious P.A.T.
How about this: why is it that when a Republican is elected, we are told he has to repay his base, but when a Democrat is elected, we are told he has to run away from his base, preferably screaming in horror?
The Other Steve
Yeah, obviously that was what was meant.
FYYF
KCinDC
Yes, only Republicans use the phrase "far left" to refer to anyone in the American political environment, and only Republicans maintain the fantasy that liberals view high tax rates as an end in themselves.
ricky
Thanks for the coverage of a blog article based on interviews with reporters. Helps explain why some blogs get covered by the mainstream media.
As a member of the seething left, Zeleny has me down pat.
If the economy is the same four years from now, no way I vote for Obama.
phobos
This was clearly a slap in the face to the NYT.
The Other Steve
How about we wait until the day after Obama is sworn in and actually starts doing things to start judging his performance?
Complaining about Janet Napolitano because she didn’t launch an investigation into some immigrant issue back in the 1990s when she was US Attorney… I mean come on. People are complaining that she didn’t do meaningless grandstanding when she had the chance?
I’m seeing some really ridiculous complaints out there.
The Other Steve
Depends on where we are at, what the reasons are and so on.
And whether or not the GOP nominates Sarah Palin.
Senyordave
Encinitas, Calif.: Have you seen any clues about how our new president is going to control such a strong-minded set of advisors and cabinet members? He’s chosen great people, but they don’t exactly share General Powell’s sense of order of command…
Shailagh Murray: An excellent observation. I am kind of amazed at the number of high-profile people on Obama’s team, especially in the foreign policy/national security realm. And many aren’t Obama insiders, so who knows how strong their loyalties will prove? That’ll be an interesting subplot in the months ahead, if this economic fog ever clears.
So Obama was either stupid to nominate these people or is too weak to control them. Does this Shailagh Murray peson actually get paid to write this crap?
TheHatOnMyCat
Well, and that’s why they are toast. If that is their "hope" then it’s time to form a new party and let theirs just go into the dustbin of history.
A terrorist attack only works for them if it looks like Obama fucked up or fucks up the response. I don’t see that happening.
A scandal only works for them if it is big and Clintonesque in its scandaliness. I don’t see that happening to Obama.
The GOP needs to get a message together, and to do that, they need to get a new idea. I don’t really see that happening in the next four years either.
gopher2b
Oh, I remember that anti-war, pro gay marriage, single payer, high marginal tax rates, strong regulation speech Obama gave. It was gold.
He never said he was for any of these things. People just assumed that he was because they were voting for him. Idiots.
ricky
Are you suggesting they will be reduced to boiling their footwear before they toss them at the President as a news conference?
DougJ
It is their hope and they should go into the dustbin of history. I’m not sure they will, though. I think that we’re fucked, as I’ve said before. Our political discourse is dominated by cretins and there’s no way that ends well.
Zifnab
@ricky:
If the economy is the same four years from now, I will have no idea who to vote for. "Deregulate, deregulate, deregulate" and "tax cut, tax cut, tax cut" don’t seem like winning strategies to me, and that’s all the other side has got.
ricky
I thought they assumed that because they drank the Kool Aid. Then they voted for him.
TheHatOnMyCat
Uh, never mind. I am not sure you are up to this.
Zifnab
Given the last eight years, I’d really rather the GOP keep any new ideas to themselves. Finding a new fruity flavor of xenophobia to cling to or developing "alternate" economic theories that works great on a research paper out of Liberty University doesn’t inspire me with a great deal of optimism.
What’s that you say? Snake Oil 2000? Why, that’s far superior to the Snake Oil 1500 I’ve been drinking! I can’t wait to buy it!
Comrade Dread
The first one is enough to get you labeled a raging liberal fascist leftie by the Republicans these days.
I’m a little to the right of you on the rest of the issues and the gang in conservative blog circles view me as the next incarnation of Che.
TheHatOnMyCat
Which people are those? I’m a 50-year hardcore liberal Democrat … and I never assumed any such thing. Nor did anyone I know.
I really think that the voters are capable of more sublety than the CW gives them credit for. I think this election shows that this is possible.
John Cole
Forget closing Gitmo. I think Obama’s first act as President should be the establishment of a special prosecutor to investigate him for possible crimes committed during the transition.
I would suggest Ann Coulter. Or Andy McCarthy.
ricky
Due to rapid species depletion snake oil will one day be too valuable to waste on human consumption.
joe from Lowell
I explain this contradiction by noting that Obama is so immensely popular and his transition period has gone so well that "Is Obama Awesome or What?" stories have all been beaten to death, and the press is trying to gin up some new drama.
I heard that John Kerry is going to rip Hillary’s blouse and call her a tramp, and then she’s going to pull his hair and call him a ho.
The Other Steve
The only people who made that assumption were McCain voters.
They also appear to be the ones who are most disappointed that Obama has not called for imposing a new Communist regime.
4tehlulz
@ricky: Oh shit, does that mean we’ve reached Peak Snake Oil?
phobos
There are vast, untapped reservoirs of Snake Oil within our own borders.
Drill here. Drill now.
ricky
Rudy has more prosecutorial experience and his wardrobe suggests better cross dressing imagination.
ricky
No, but Bush still has a few days to remove it from the drilling ban and let the big rigs move up the slope. Unless, of course you meant to say "Mount Snake Oil," which has already been transferred to Rumsfeld and Cheney for a ski resport.
Gay Veteran
I’m tired of this bullshit that one can’t be critical of Obama. As usual, Glenn Greenwald gets it right:
"…Politicians, by definition, respond to political pressure. Those who decide that it’s best to keep quiet and simply trust in the goodness and just nature of their leader are certain to have their political goals ignored. It’s always better — far better — for a politician to know that he’s being scrutinized closely and will be praised and supported only when his actions warrant that, and will be criticized and opposed when they don’t….
Criticisms, political pressure and Barack Obama
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
Joshua Norton
Given that most of the Czars were, oh, shall we say, longevity impaired, to say the least, why do they insist on using that term?
On the other hand, if there is bad juju associated with the title, then by all means give it to Mittens.
Gay Veteran
If only one side applies pressure that that side is likely to win.
and now for today’s history lesson (emphasis added):
"…In one situation, a group came to him [FDR] urging specific actions in support of a cause in which they deeply believed. He replied: I agree with you, I want to do it, NOW MAKE ME DO IT…."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt: A Man of the Century
an address by William J. vanden Heuvel to the Monthly Meeting of The Century Association
http://www.feri.org/common/news/details.cfm?QID=954&clientid=11005
ksmiami
Well the good news is why listen to the (bat shit insane) Republicans when they are pretty much always wrong and the bad news is the military fall out from a global recession will probably revamp the economy unless we are all reduced to rubble in the meantime.
I mean if India and Pakistan start going at it, it will make WWII look like a walk in the park. ..
But if things really go south, a slogan for the day:
"Republicans – the other white meat."
Punchy
/scratches chin…..pontificates awhile……shruggs
ricky
So Rush would then be from the feedlot (CAFO to those ITK)
and Ann C. would be range fed?
Deborah
What can we, as citizens, do to encourage Governor Palin to be as visible as possible? (e.g., She could go inspect the Middle East, then cover Fashion Week, then challenge the editor of the Anchorage Daily News to gator wrestle.) If a good uniting enemy would just pop back up, many of those who are presently fretting their "I am distressed that Obama seems to be a moderate who works within the existing power structure like every non-crazy person said all through the election" schtick might yank their gazes off their navels.
J. Michael Neal
Confirmation hearings would be a lot more entertaining if the nominee had to give their testimony from the top rope.
ksmiami
Rush is definitely corn fed with a lot of hormones and coulter probably would not be considered fit for human consumption ;)
peach flavored shampoo
Maybe Palin will give her 2012 inauguration address from a pudding-filled backyard swimming pool, in the midst of a topless tickle-fight with Natalie Portman.
John Cole
You might scroll down a post and see the ENTIRE POST linking to that. Or not.
And there is a difference between legitimate criticisms of Obama and taking part in mindless shrieking sessions over some thinly sourced rumor based on something someone who may or may not be on the Obama team may or may not have said to an opinion columnist writing for the Wall Street Journal.
If you can’t tell the difference, the NRO may be hiring.
J.D. Rhoades
Aren’t these the same people who get all indignant about how people who criticize the President are "pulling for America to lose for political gain"?
Comrade Dread
Answer: I think they’re grasp of Czarist Russia stops around 1914 or so.
More Cynical Answer: because our leaders long for the days of unchecked authoritarian power and view us all as surfs to produce wealth for their greater glory and pampering, unless they opt to use us as cannon fodder for whatever new Kaiser (or Hitler) they’ve invented.
Confirmation hearings would be a lot more entertaining if the nominee had to give their testimony from the top rope
I’ve long advocated that all political races or confirmations should be settled in Thunderdome.
jake 4 that 1
Alas, due to faulty decoder rings they think their standing orders are to scream n1gg3r n1gg3r n1igg3r f^ggity fg, dirty foreign intellectual soldier hating foreigner taxes Jesus Christ!
@ricky: John Yoo. Although Obama doesn’t have any sons so I’m not sure whose testicles he’d crush.
Litlebritdifrnt
Slightly O/T but I am beginning to like Nancy Pelosi, (god help me), not only is she a cat lady but she obviously has a kick ass sense of humor (stolen from Wonkette)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtOW1CxHvNY
Comrade Stuck
On FNS, Krauthammer declared that by the beginning of summer the economy would become Obama’s Economy with all it’s fuckedupedness, and the goopers would wipe out dems in the 2010 midterms. When Maura Liasson chirped her agreement, I heard the fat lady sing for Barrack, though it could have been K-Low humming Classical Gas.
Joshua Norton
How’s that possible. I mean it was "Clinton’s economy" until sometime in 2007.
Joshua Norton
Quick – how many things are wrong with this statement?
4tehlulz
>>Krauthammer declared
Which automatically means that the Dems will wipe the floor with the GOP in 2010.
DougJ
Then it became Obama/Hillary/Edwards’s economy, then Obama/Hillary’s economy, and finally Obama’s economy in late August.
jibeaux
@4tehlulz:
I’d feel better about this if it were Bill Kristol…
Comrade Stuck
@jibeaux:
Bloody Bill was waxing on about how He agreed with Obama’s spending stimulus bill, but that it should be on the Military and not namby pamby bridges and stuff.
Brick Oven Bill
Shale oil, not snake oil, you guys. By the way shale oil is not the same thing as oil shale. Shale oil is oil shale without the shale. Shale oil has, like, the same energy density as oil. Four hundred years of this stuff.
This might please you John Cole. My two year old has taken to running laps around the house yelling ‘fat cat’. She wants to see that picture of the 35 pounder that you put up back when we were discussing Ray Lewis.
Jim Pharo
John, you silly thing. It’s good news for Rudy.
It always is.
ricky
jake 4 that 1
Yoo? Who? HaHaHaHaHa. Crush testicles with a memo? He’s an enabler not a prosecutor.
kay
Krauthammer wrote last week that Obama is the acting domestic President and Bush is the foreign policy President. I think that’s true.
He hit on something true and now he’s just going to run with it, and make all kinds of crazy predictions stemming from his one true statement, even though Frank Rich already said it, weeks ago. People probably told him "that’s TRUE, what you wrote, Dr. Krauthammer!" He’s all puffed up with pride, and cocky.
jibeaux
@Comrade Stuck:
Bill Kristol could announce that the sky is blue and it would immediately turn orange.
demimondian
@Litlebritdifrnt: Including a RickRoll and everything. LOL
Cyrus
@Joshua Norton:
Well, the term "drug czar" was first used as an impressive-sounding but ill-defined title in a period when the country always had Russia on its mind. Makes sense as much as any new government office with an ill-defined, demogoguic mission and probably more than many.
Why all the new czars since then? George Carlin had it right: "Where ideas are concerned, America can be counted on to do one of two things: take a good idea and run it completely into the ground, or take a bad idea and run it completely into the ground."
BDeevDad
Well another Senate seat will be up for grabs.
Tim (The Other One)
Thanks a lot for giving away the Super Bowl halftime show. Christ…
Person of Choler
Relax, no matter what Obama does or what happens, his acolytes will still worship the water he walks on.
(I know, Bush, Palin, yadda yadda yadda yak yak yak….)
GSD
Obama hasn’t even been inaugurated and he’s already ruined the country.
I guess those anti-Christ e-mails I mocked were right.
Hopefully Savior Sarah and Joe the Disciple will show mercy on us all.
-GSD
MikeJ
coming soon to the house:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kMag-C86DZuZ3S8AA04UBQ?feat=directlink
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Shalaigh has been writing this crap for years. She’s one of the many 30-something Posties brought on from other papers for their alledged journalistic talent.
They have none. And newspapers wonder why their revenues decline? I wouldn’t pay the Post a dime for anything anymore and this from a DC native (who now lives in Flyover Country) who considers it my hometown paper.
She really is a hack, along with Kornblut.
AhabTRuler
The Sunday crossword is pretty good. Still harder than most, but easier than the NYT. Other than that, the paper is barely fit for litter liners, and that job is taken by the Moonie Times.
phobos
@Person of Choler: Yeah. Whatever happened to those confident assurances we kept hearing that Obama was even more "radically left" than Bernie Sanders?
I am so confused.
MikeJ
The Sunday crossword is pretty good. Still harder than most, but easier than the NYT. Other than that, the paper is barely fit for litter liners, and that job is taken by the Moonie Times.
Sunday Times xword is pretty easy, usually only Wednesday difficulty, just a bigger size. Didn’t the Post just switch Sundays to Reagle? He’s a little quirkier than Shortz at NYT, but I don’t know that he’s any easier.
TenguPhule
At this point, I look forward to Obama’s stormtroopers terminating the critical masses of stupid forming in this country.
Sam Simple
Yeah, right. Who the fuck are the Republicans going to run? Newton Leroy Gingrich? Larry Craig?? Caribou Barbie? John McCain?? Joe the Fucking-A Plumber?
These sad fucks don’t have anyone who would make an appealing dogcatcher at the moment.
burnspbesq
@Notorious P.A.T.:
Umm, like progressives have somewhere else to go, other than out of the Democratic Party?
burnspbesq
@Gay Veteran:
I’ll be critical of Obama when he actually does something, as President of the United States, worthy of criticism.
You do understand, don’t you, that the inauguration isn’t until next week?
Notorious P.A.T.
LOL. You’ve convinced me. It sure doesn’t sound like you are the one backing away from something you can’t handle. No sir, not at all.
Deborah
Democrats in Tennessee of all places have just banded together and politically outmaneuvered the Republican majority! Unbelievable and inspirational–everyone moaning about the failed Obama presidency should head on over and feel good again. (Link to Wonkette because they put in all the gay adoption, intelligent design in schools, evil snarkiness that the Nashville Political News left out, though it’s worth clicking both.)
Notorious P.A.T.
I’m with you.
Notorious P.A.T.
All I’m saying is, it’s ludicrous to say Obama won because of "the middle". His margin of victory was ten million votes? I’m pretty sure there are more than ten million liberals in this country.
Notorious P.A.T.
Jeez John-O, cat scratch you? Ben Roethlisberger steal your mail? It’s okay, no need to lash out. The NRO? Harsh.
R-Jud
@Notorious P.A.T. (and cleek):
I’m guessing it’s, "fuck you, you faggot".
burnspbesq
@Notorious P.A.T.:
All of whom would have voted for the Democratic nominee, whether it was Obama, Clinton, Edwards, Daffy Duck, or George Steinbrenner (well, I would have drawn the line at Steinbrenner, but that’s just me).
Liberals are good for, best case, 203 electoral votes. Which, simply put, means liberal = fail.
Obama ended up with 365. Where did the other 162 come from?
jibeaux
Hmmm. Internet traditions of which we are not aware.
AhabTRuler
This is essentially a rehash of the argument that evangelicals alone were responsible for Bush’s reelection. The system don’t work that way. You can’t pick a block of voters and say "these are the important ones." Who were Obama’s important voters? All of them.
mey
If Obama can’t stand the heat, he should get out of the kitchen.
I’m thinking he’s a little tougher than that. He can stand the criticism. It actually helps him. It gives him cover for instituting progressive practices.
I don’t think he’s gotten nearly enough complaints regarding his cabinet picks so far. I hope they continue loud and long. If we shut up, we’ll get ignored. Listen, this is how they want it. They only respond to the loud and obnoxious. I’m willing to take the hit as an annoying far-left-radical-progressive-pro-people-pro-justice-pro-fucking-common-sense-liberal if it means shit gets done.
Stav
REgular readers of the Post chats know Princeton, NJ as a very smart, liberal mathematician. He usually challenges the reporters on strong policy footing….today (for Shailagh) he went on sarcasm.
Corner Stone
The Obama Presidency – Epic Fail or merely Full of Fail?
Comrade Stuck
@Corner Stone:
I hear Fox News is looking for a Hill fanboise to keep the fires burning in Greater Wingnuttia. Obama bad, Sarah Good ,and all that. Need a reference?
Corner Stone
@zifnab
Ummm…I admit I’m a little confused here. Tell me again which one the "other" side is?
Corner Stone
@Comrade Stuck
Well, I guess every blog needs someone to fill the stupidest fucking person alive position.
Congratulations!
Or maybe you’re just unedumacated and have comprehensive deficits.
Did you or did you not read DougJ’s lead?
Moran.
The Populist
Can I roll my eyes now? If America is fooled into thinking this mess was created by Obama and his policies to fix things are thwarted at every turn by the righties in congress, then we deserve to go down in glorious failure.
Sorry, far lefties need to stop hand wringing and support this guy. All this nitpicking is the equivalent of dumping chum and blood into a waiting throng of great whites. Do you folks who are so worried about Obama (dems please) really want a Palin Presidency? Obama will do the right thing, just let him take office and make decisions!
As for the right? Doug, Doug, Doug…I get it, you have a schtick going but the right are just as hurt as anyone. If they block too much of the stimulus and aid to the average American the mid terms will be a blood bath for the right. Write it down.
One could say Clinton got off to a rocky start and did some good (and some bad) things. On the opposite side, Reagan had a lot of issues to deal with in term 1 as well. Obama will be fine mark my words.
The Populist
Mey:
True, criticize him but let’s give him some support. One thing that makes the GOP such an abysmal failure is the fact that nobody questions anybody in the party unless they lean to the middle.
phobos
I’d like to think that the majority of these were only nominally affiliated with either "R" or "D" and simply voted against blatant incompetence.
This presupposes, of course, that the "swing vote" has evolved somewhat since 2004.
ThymeZoneThePlumber
Yeah, that was my goal. Convincing you. Darn, now I’m disappointed!
The Populist
To all Malkin/rightie shills:
I really, really hope you block every stimulus plan Obama has in mind. Really I do….funny how us independents and lefties called you guys out years ago for being frauds and you prove it today. Conservatives? You had a surplus and let the idiot boy President spend it all. You let him drown key government divisions that have value for us all in the proverbial bath tub and here we have a mess of epic proportions.
Tax and spend politicians can be easily replaced with no real harm to the health of the nation. All one has to do is repeal the taxes. BORROW AND SPEND politicians like the right have been for the last 20 years can be replaced but at a cost to our nation’s health.
You see, debt comes at a major price that will be paid by our children and their children. You folks sold out your principles for unending war, fear of Muslims and a President so idiotic it’s not even funny anymore.
Sad.
Comrade Stuck
@Corner Stone:
LOL, Cornered Stoned. Still dumb as a sack of hammers, only louder. Did you think DougJ was being serious? It’s called snark, Moran!
ThymeZoneThePlumber
No sir, it is absolutely correct to say it. The fact that you don’t get it doesn’t make it otherwise.
All national elections are won in the middle. But you don’t have to believe that. Having the odd moran around to say stupid things is what makes the blogs so entertaining.
ricky
I would have even given Dennis the Menace my vote, alien probing and all, but I may have fallen off of the Daffy Duck bandwagon.
Homeland economic insecurity?
The Populist
it’s ludicrous to say Obama won because of "the middle".
Oh please. Bush ran to the center everytime he ran for election. Ever heard of the b.s. known as "compassionate" Conservatism?
This country does not accept a GOP that ran an old man who was way past his prime and the vacuous beauty queen governor who seems to be as unethical as the VP. We finally woke up.
If the GOP were smart they’d embrace centrists with conservative fiscal ideas (like it used to be before the Weyrich’s, Dobson’s, Robertson’s and their ilk took over the party).
The Populist
Ricky:
If we voted for Obama due to economic fears, what does it say about the GOP? You just helped kill DougJ’s argument which is weak to begin with. Obama and Dems will win elections going forward because most Americans will see the GOP hypocrisy.
ricky
.
And all championships are won with defense. Its the penetration.
ricky
Populist, just be thankful you din’t call me progressive.
Not sure I said you voted for Obama out of fear, but if I did
what it says about the GOP is they created something more Americans fear than O’Sammy Ben and the Arab Terror.
Not sure I helped kill DougJ’s argument either, because I am against capital punishment for argumentative offenses even when they are premedicated.
If I offended anyone with my choice of words I stand detected.
DougJ
If you define "middle" in the right way, that’s a tautology. But I think there is a difference between broadening the base and driving turn-out, and the 2004 election demonstrated that.
Obama won in large part because more Democrats showed up than Republicans. Is that because he appealed to the middle or spoke to the base? I don’t know the answer.
Comrade Stuck
@ricky:
Ricky, you went and lost that number, didn’t ya. No one gets offended here, we all lovingly offend any thing that moves. Taking offense would be like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500, as Capn Willard might say.
Zifnab
@Corner Stone:
"other" side = "non-Obama" side. The hot prospects for the 2012 bid – Palin, Romney, maybe Pawlenty or Jeb Bush or Hutchenson – don’t seem to have any winning strategies for economic revitalization outside the traditional GOP play book. Correct me if I’m wrong.
The Populist
"Populist, just be thankful you din’t call me progressive."
I wasn’t gonna do that. You didn’t offend me btw, I like a good debate.
Zifnab
@DougJ:
It’s worth asking whether Obama appealed to the middle or was simply appealing to the middle. If I’ve got Karl Marx and Karl Rove both running for President, neither of them are going to appeal directly to "the middle", but one of them will inevitably have to win in a side-by-side election. We could argue that this individual was "more appealing".
The notion that Obama needs to pander to the 20-30% of the voters occupying the middle of the ideological spectrum is logically flawed. He doesn’t need to kowtow to that segment of the population from day one. He simply needs to be a more attractive candidate than his future opponent in 2012. If that opponent is a wingnut hero with zero "middle ground" appeal him/herself, Obama can go as far left as he wants because the middle won’t break for his opposition no matter what Mr. 44 does. Likewise, if Obama’s future opponent were to come into the nomination having pissed off his/her own right wing base by appealing strictly to the ideological middle, Obama could still position himself further to the left because he’d have a base and his opponent wouldn’t. Or Obama could shift the entire ideological spectrum of the country – a la Barry Goldwater and Ronald Regan or FDR and Truman. Then he wouldn’t need to pander to the middle because the middle would be his base by default.
He’s got lots of possibilities.
The Populist
Obama won in large part because more Democrats showed up than Republicans. Is that because he appealed to the middle or spoke to the base? I don’t know the answer.
Doug, he appealed to the middle. All the polls point to that. The middle basically has been deciding the partisan split for years now.
Not only the middle but I think many more GOP moderates voted for him as well. Look at the military vote! He appeals to people because he isn’t trying to scare us, he speaks eloquently and is obviously sharp as a tack.
Those fearing terrorists and muslims need to find a new fear because it’s obvious America is over it.
ricky
Comrade Stuck I was simply practicing my political skills. The key words are "If I" and "detected." I fess up to nuthin.
I was impeachable only because I helped others to my organs.
DougJ
Examples?
And, even supposing you can find them, was it the "middle" that raised that half billion for him?
The Populist
And all championships are won with defense. Its the penetration.
I think I know where you are going with this but keep in mind that the GOP playbook did not work at all this time around.
Call Obama a terrorist and let idiots at rallies scream "kill him" and you truly scare away folks who want no part of that nonsense. The GOP proved that Limpbaugh, Hatenity and Coulter can call him out over and over but they aren’t as popular as the ratings would imply.
There are segments of the country that are far right no matter what options are there to improve things. They won’t vote for a democrat no matter what he stands for. What I find interesting about this past election is how the GOP had ZERO message. That has always been their strong suit. Whether it is terrorists, taxes, guns, etc they have some message that resonates with middling voters. Not this time. When you sit there and attack somebody because of the color of his skin and the fact his father was a muslim it kills the messenger. Nobody CARED. The reasoned individual saw the pictures of his mom and thought she was giving and kind. The grandma and grandpa look like any American’s family. Rev. Wright didn’t help but he didn’t hurt because America is tiring of letting guilt by association rule the day. All Palin and McCain had was calls of terrorist, Ayers (a respected Chicago area educator), etc with no plan to help us get out of this mess.
Just like moderates never wanted to hear why Reagan or Clinton was so bad, they didn’t believe the crap about Barack either.
Thank God for that!
ricky
you have created a scenario where Dennis the Menace stands an outside chance.
The Populist
And, even supposing you can find them, was it the "middle" that raised that half billion for him?
Yes. Until you can prove your points, why should I waste my time digging up numerous stories that back me up?
You are trying to sell obfuscation here. The middle has decided all elections since Clinton/Bush. Face it, the right HATES that America is really a centrist country. I’ve been saying it for years and the data backs me up.
The GOP would be wise to pay close attention here. I left the GOP because I hated being compared to a dead possum in the road. I want fiscal responsibility and ethics to return to the party NOT this rightie Christianist shit. Nobody wants it. THAT is fact.
The Populist
Heck, here’s some of my proof:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2009/01/07/the_gops_weakness_reagan_democ.html?wprss=the-trail
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/currents/20090111_The_American_Debate__He_damaged_party_in_two_fundamental_ways.html
http://themoderatevoice.com/25293/how-the-independent-movement-went-left-by-going-right-guest-voice/
Oh, and he raised money from folks like me and the Balloon Juice users by getting 5-10 dollars a pop. He also benefitted from getting Republicans who switched to Dem. I am a former GOP voter. I switched in 2002.
phobos
After six+two years of tomfoolery, the GOP has no natural allies left. They are still are at each others throats over the RINO/Big Tent dilemma, which as far as I can tell is still primarily centered on pro-life issues.
A good portion of Republicans didn’t show up because McCain didn’t pander enough to dittoheads due to some vestigial, atavistic sense of decency.
Mnemosyne
It’s the same way that Clinton was responsible for both the 1992 World Trade Center garage bombing, which happened less than a month after he entered office, and 9/11, which happened 9 months after Clinton left office. If something bad happens, it’s a Democrat’s fault. If something good happens — like, say, the people of Germany deciding they want to tear down the Berlin Wall — it’s because a Republican made it happen.
QED.
demimondian
@Comrade Stuck: That’s a slap in the face, a slap in the face, I tell ya!
TheHatOnMyCat
Heh. Whatever.
The middle is the middle. It’s the part of the electorate that isn’t ideological, isn’t single-issue-driven. It’s what is left over when you take out the 30% that are like me … Dems through and through …. and the 30% who think that dinosaurs walked with man, the right wing … it’s the remainder. It’s the people who don’t care that much about the tribal political warfare and aren’t political junkies. Not ideologues.
It’s the voters who are not bound to a party by movement politics or by some compelling issue like "life" or "choice."
It’s the voters who don’t have some axe to grind or agenda to promote.
You know, Doug. The middle.
Ah, what the hell. You got me. There is no middle, I just made it up, today, and the whole idea is just a big chuckle. HAHAHAHAHAHA! Get it? It’s for the lulz. Ya big lug, ya.
The Populist
Hat On My Cat:
There are moderates like me that are total pol junkies. We just don’t like being labeled. I like Dems. Always have. Some are a little too sanctimonious for me BUT they are always willing to cordially listen to opposing viewpoints. The hard right are unwilling to listen to differing viewpoints. When I was a moderate GOP member I would be told to leave the party or idiots like me are what the GOP need to get rid of.
Some of us are very engaged, we just don’t like party philosophy. If I were to gauge my viewpoints then I’d say I should be a Dem. It’s just that until the Dems get a backbone on some things, I can’t join there either.
The Populist
It’s the same way that Clinton was responsible for both the 1992 World Trade Center garage bombing, which happened less than a month after he entered office, and 9/11, which happened 9 months after Clinton left office. If something bad happens, it’s a Democrat’s fault. If something good happens—like, say, the people of Germany deciding they want to tear down the Berlin Wall—it’s because a Republican made it happen.
Funny how that works out. I remember how the Bush Administration was fully warned about OBL and AQ. I remember how I’d see news articles discussing the growth of AQ and then reading a senior admin official discounting them. I remember how we GAVE the Taliban all that cash for destroying the drug trade in Afghanistan.
Richard Clarke was trashed as one reason why we were attacked. I dare ANYBODY to show me real proof that he was at fault. He was dumped because the likes of Ashcroft, Rumsfeld and Rice didn’t want to hear anymore about AQ.
To them it wasn’t their problem. Iraq mysteriously was.
The Populist
Oh and when Clinton tried to go after OBL? He was tarnished with that annoying wag the dog tag. Yep, seems to me if anybody is at fault for 9/11 it rests solely on the right.
DougJ
Then indeed it’s a tautology to say elections are won in the middle. If we say (although I’m not sure I agree) that 30% always votes Dem and 30% always votes Republican, then obviously the election is decided by the other 40%. How could it be otherwise?
But if things change to where 38% always vote Dem and 30% always vote Republican, then Republicans have to dominate the remaining 32% of the middle to win.
TheHatOnMyCat
But ….. even if that happens, which is not likely, it will be temporary, during a transition period. The whole two-party machine is set up to evenly divide the electorate into coalitions that are competitive. It’s what they do, why they exist.
At this moment in time, a slice of the the middle has joined up with us. At a future moment, that slice or some other slices may join up with another coalition. It’s dynamic. But you can’t win an election by whipping up your base. You have to appeal to the voters who aren’t part of anybody’s base. That’s the point, and it’s so obvious that it can be the subject of a lot of hot air here in this blatherfactory because some people just aren’t going to get it.
TheHatOnMyCat
You are talking about a few Dems who happen to hold power positions on Capitol Hill. There are millions of Dems, and it isn’t useful to generalize about them.
I don’t agree that the way to win against an unethical opponent is to get plenty of "spine." That’s chest-beating bluster that frankly I think doesn’t do a lot of good.
I think we outsmart the morans, outmaneuver them. Something along the lines of what Obama did to Clinton.
I think that the Dean-Obama reconstruction of the Democratic Party is historic and one of the great political stories of our time. Your CW view, to me, is just silly and irrelevant. The GOP is in disarray. We won. Time to move on.
DougJ
Similarly, it isn’t correct to say all Republicans are like Sarah Palin. These kinds of generalizations aren’t helpful. Dems should demand more backbone from their leaders, Republicans should demand more…I don’t even know what you’d have to give Palin to make her a decent leader, but you catch my drift. That doesn’t mean Dems lack backbones or that Republicans lack whatever it is that Palin lacks (a functioning cerebral cortex?).
TheHatOnMyCat
By the way, great job on the front page Doug.
The blog is really cooking these days. Nice work.
DougJ
Thanks!
Corner Stone
@zifnab
The sarcastic point I was attempting to make was this – I hear the words "tax cut, tax cut" come straight out of Obama’s mouth as one piece of a solution, and I notice that many of his appointments are of the "deregulate, deregulate" mindset. Hence, I’m not sure that using those terms really delineates one side from the "other" side.
But, thanks for the clarity on for Obama and non-Obama being the demarcation. From what I can tell at this very, very early stage ISTM that Obama uses a lot of traditional Republican "frames" and code words when he’s talking about policy or ideas.
Any Democrat that uses the word "entitlement" when referring to SS should really be bodychecked. That’s a through and through wingnut term that helps people reframe SS into something people are just given by a largesse govt, and not what it in fact is.
To sum up, I’m pretty convinced at this point that extremists exists on both side fringes but all in all the rest of the body politic is on board with the same program.
Gay Veteran
John Cole
I’m tired of this bullshit that one can’t be critical of Obama. As usual, Glenn Greenwald gets it right:
You might scroll down a post and see the ENTIRE POST linking to that. Or not.
uh, why did you think I was talking about you? If the shoe doesn’t fit then don’t wear it.