Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Second rate reporter says what?

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

We need to vote them all out and restore sane Democratic government.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Dear Washington Post, you are the darkness now.

It’s not hopeless, and we’re not helpless.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Their boy Ron is an empty plastic cup that will never know pudding.

It’s all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mothership.

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

Their freedom requires your slavery.

The Supreme Court is corrupt. Democrats must win in November and force court reform.

The jury literally has a bell they can ring to force Trump to show up on command. Greatest thing ever!

SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.

Donald Trump, welcome to your everything, everywhere, all at once.

It’s a doggy dog world.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

There are a lot more evil idiots than evil geniuses.

You are here: Home / Why I Hate Democrats and Being A Democrat, Volume 36329

Reader Interactions

235Comments

  2. 2.

    burntbeans

    john, i don’t see why being upset about this automatically precludes you are a democrat; not all LGBT persons live and die by the party of jefferson…

  3. 3.

    Fwiffo

    Being a Republican means walking around with a Sean Hannity smirk on your face all the time, and sometimes being mad at everyone else. Being a Democrat means watching your hair fall out and constantly being mad at yourself. God knows why you switched sides.

  4. 4.

    Deborah

    Like Fence says, cutting that was unseemly. NPR evidently had to defend themselves from the same criticism, that they bought the broadcast rights from HBO and broadcast only the parts HBO provided.
    Frankly I find HBO as censor a lot more believable than Obama, especially given that inviting Robinson was an outreach to those angry about Warren.

  5. 5.

    Original Lee

    HBO is just generally full of it. They were supposed to distribute the concert broadly, but my mom called me yesterday all upset because their local cable co. had arbitrarily decided that only HD customers would have access. I think a lot of so-called broadcast executives weighed making the broadcast available against the inconvenience of dealing with people in their service area who are all paranoid about teh ghey and decided not to carry it, or they decided to start the event when the music did, and HBO let them go ahead.

    Grrr.

  6. 6.

    John

    Gene’s invocation was 10 minutes before HBO’s coverage started. It’s not like they broke to commercial during the invocation.

    I really have no idea why my fellow homos get so riled up over things like this. Seriously.

  8. 8.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    I thought that being a Dem now required that we actually be gay.

    If that is not true, then a lot of people are going to be pissed off. I myself was scheduled for Boot Camp Gay Training next month.

  9. 9.

    Fwiffo

    No, gay boot camp was last month. Next month we all get gaymarried. Looks like you missed your opportunity to pick your partner, and now teacher’s gonna have to pair you up with one of the other slackers.

  11. 11.

    Cris

    Your screenshot shows that you chose not to click on the links to Christianity Today and Pam’s House Blend. Clearly you are throwing Evangelical Christians and black lesbians under the bus.

  12. 12.

    Laura W

    WTF? I am sitting here right now watching the opening for that very reason! I should be elsewhere. You mean, I’m gonna sit here and wait for nothing?
    Guess I should read the post before ranting.

  18. 18.

    demimondian

    @Laura W: No, he is right.

    It pisses *me* off that The Very Reverend Dr. Robinson was cut off. I get to attend an ordination later this month, and I’m hoping the Gene will be one of the Bishops officiating, (pu-leeze). But it’s not the end of the world.

  20. 20.

    Geeno

    As someone on a another blog pointed out – if you’re going to throw a constituency a bone, it’s kinda nice if they can actually see the bone.

  23. 23.

    ricky

    If this makes you hate being a Democrat think of what Rev. Robinson’s promotion did to some Episcopalians. On another thread someone pointed out the Anglican homophobes are so pissed off they are engaged in same sect schism. Apparently they have linked up with some South American Anglicans which, I am told means they are under the Bishopric of the Southern Cone, which sounds to me like something akin to the painful itch of hemorrhoidal tissue.

  24. 24.

    Papa Tony

    John, for goodness’ sake, will you PLEASE STOP LECTURING people that you don’t understand and you can’t relate to?

    I STILL don’t feel like this inauguration has anything to do with me, or my husband.

    I took karate lessons years ago because I was so afraid of having a basher come out of hiding behind me as I would exit a known gay establishment and either killing me or permanently brain-damaging me with a baseball bat. It happened DOZENS of times in my town, years ago, and it still happens periodically.

    There are anti-gay laws in the majority of states in this oh-so-suitable for John Cole country of ours. My husband and I have been married FOUR TIMES in the last eighteen years, and we’re currently in danger of having our last one revoked. You can go to vegas and get one in five minutes.

    If we’re jumpy, it’s because we have recent history on our minds.

    If you haven’t walked in my shoes, then STFU, Privilege Boy. Enjoy the inauguration that somehow doesn’t have anything to alarm YOU.

  27. 27.

    Deborah

    Why did the damned thing need to be on HBO anyway? What kind of pretentious bullshit is that?

    Just taking a wild shot here, but guessing HBO purchased the broadcast rights because they figured it was something that would draw an audience? Capitalism and all?

    It was a good concert. And if the media were not covering the official transition events, which have been very well done Americana that set a good coming together, optimistic tone for the new administration, they would be interviewing random people about the coming transition–Joe the Plumber, Sarah Palin, Mr. Wide-Stance.

    The media is going to cover this; the Obama people are giving them stuff to cover. It’s a better understanding of the media than various failed candidates and their rants about the media as external nemesis.

    ETA: I get the general frustration with Democrats as a bunch of whiners eager to fall on each other at every opportunity (that’s why I believe we need Palin to remain visible as a uniting lightning rod), just not the specific frustration with the inaugural festivities. We’ve had inaugural festivities for centuries.

  28. 28.

    Face

    I cant follow that screenshot at all. I have no idea what you’re talking about. Democrats are angry at a gay preacher?

  29. 29.

    jenniebee

    I would take personal responsibility for the flap that I just read about for the first time here, but according to teh wingnuttosphere, my ilk and I never take personal responsibility for anything.

  30. 30.

    Laura W

    @demimondian: I was directing my charitable suggestions for improving his cranky mood of the last few days to #10, not necessarily the main post. Since when is a free concert on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial a bad thing, and Lady Freakin’ Di?

    I, myself, would’ve loved to have seen the invocation.
    Whatever.

  31. 31.

    Karen S.

    I’m not sure what the outrage is. Whenever I hear that an event is going to be broadcast live on the teevee, I don’t automatically expect that I’ll be treated to absolutely everything that happens live. I don’t think it has ever happened that way. I’m a lesbian and, frankly, I’m tired of all the anger about Rick the Prick and now this supposed broadcast snub of Robinson. I’m choosing to feel delighted and pleased about Obama right now, mainly because my father and mother, African Americans in their 80s, are so delighted and pleased with and proud of what Obama has accomplished just by getting elected. I’m taking my cues, at the moment, from them.

  33. 33.

    Anton Sirius

    @10

    Why did it have to be televised? When else were we gonna get a chance to see a living legend like Herbie Hancock completely fuck with the heads of pretentious twits like Will.I.Am and Sheryl Crow?

  36. 36.

    ricky

    Geeno, it may be an episode of Itchy and Scratchy. When I
    bailed it was from the branch that still spoke Latin. Many moons have passed since the Friday of the dry fish stick Kimosabe. Oh, I’m sorry, did I just diss native Americans?
    Didn’t Obama as well? At least there were no quotes of Andy Jackson. A good reason to buy more firearms IMHO.

  38. 38.

    kid bitzer

    john, you’re not *supposed* to like being a democrat, or like other democrats, either.

    being a republican means belonging to happy camp, and loving all your fellow-campers.

    and being forced to agree with everything they say and follow st. reagan’s 11th commandment and never step out of line. or else.

    being a democrat means saying whatever the fuck you want, and liking whoever the fuck you want, and hating whoever the fuck you want. even your own party.

    i think you’re getting the hang of it!

  39. 39.

    Simp

    No, the real problem is HBO keeping all the video to themselves.

    This is an historic national event and unless you go to HBO.com you can’t watch it.

    Not a big deal? Well it certainly is for anyone citizen living outside the U.S. They won’t stream it to us.

    So, yes, Fuck HBO for monopolizing this grand event.

    BTW Obama’s team sent out a message saying that they intended for His address to be televised. Still not sure where the blame for it not being broadcast lays.

  40. 40.

    Comrade Kevin

    @ricky:

    I am told means they are under the Bishopric of the Southern Cone, which sounds to me like something akin to the painful itch of hemorrhoidal tissue.

    I think it’s related to the Cone of Silence.

  41. 41.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    being a democrat means saying whatever the fuck you want, and liking whoever the fuck you want, and hating whoever the fuck you want. even your own party family.

    Heh. Now this is finally about me.

  42. 42.

    ricky

    What, Queen Latifah, a whole choir of gay men and lots of Copland tunes not enough.? Some of us prefer not to see ministers of any persuasion.

  43. 43.

    Incertus

    It’s not Democrats you’re mad at, John. It’s a small subsection of activists who are making a big deal out of this. Most Democrats couldn’t tell you who Gene Robinson is, or why this is a big deal to people. Same goes for Rick Warren, or any of these other minor annoyances.

    I don’t know about you, but a lot of the time I forget just how clueless most of the country is about shit. I mentioned Ann Coulter in a senior-level class last year, and I got nothing but blank looks in response. And she’s someone with a name. So this stuff? It’s not even a tempest in a teapot. It’s more like someone not stirring the sugar in enough.

  44. 44.

    cleek

    @John Cole:

    i think working for a just and equitable America is a cause everyone should want to be a part of. this isn’t just something for gays, it’s for all of us. YMMV.

    still, this is a non-issue.

  45. 45.

    jenniebee

    I choose to be amused at the idea that HBO might have an anti-gay agenda…

    And at the image of Malkin trying to work that concept into her EMM-ESS-EMM!!! worldview.

    /giggles

  46. 46.

    John T

    So many sl4ps in the f4ce (in case you put that phrase in your spam filter) are making our reflexes twitchy and our faces pretty damn sensitive. It’ll probably take a while for the bruises to heal. And I’m just talking about the metaphorical bruises, not the literal ones like Papa Tony described upthread.

  47. 47.

    ricky

    Thanks, Comrade Kevin. My experience with Southern cones is with the prickly loblolly types. They run sappy and if you are unprotected require lots of lubricant.

  49. 49.

    Shinobi

    Sometimes I wish I were older so I would have some kind of frame of reference for how ridiculous this is. Is it just normal ridiculous? Or is it Oh My Fucking God what is WRONG with the poltical establishment, the media and all of society ridiculous?

    Or is it just that the internet makes everything seem more ridiculous.

    Oh well ::wanders off to watch random youtube videos::

  50. 50.

    The Grand Panjandrum

    Jesus Babbling Christ. Would you grow the fuck up. You have turn into one of whiniest candyasses on the internet this past week or so. My two first graders, who’ve been sick with the flu for this past week aren’t whining this much.

  51. 51.

    Zifnab

    I’m personally rather pissed that the rights got sold to HBO, period. We’ve got at least three major networks – ABC, NBC, CBS – all reachable just by having a functional TV, and the rights to this show got sold to a cable outlet that is itself part of a premium package.

    Meanwhile, CNN spends a sold eight hours covering a fucking train ride. Priorities much?

  52. 52.

    Joe Lisboa

    Did anyone bother to tell John that the Stillers won last night?

    I keed, I keed.

    I see both sides on this, but I agree: the circular firing-squadery is a distraction at best, counter-productive at worst. As someone with a horse in this race, I fail to see how that leaves me, what was it, a fellow "Captain Privilege" or whatever, but I also understand the frustration from some/many LBGT folks — at least the more vocal ones with an internet presence, such as it is.

    Looking forward to tomorrow, high noon.

  53. 53.

    gex

    I wish people would grow up about the "rights" for broadcasting the works of our government. The only bidders should be the broadcast networks. It is inexcusable for the government to sell of the rights to this to HBO while there are many citizens who do not get HBO, or don’t subscribe to a content carrier that could provide it for free on this occasion.

  58. 58.

    Cris

    @The Other Steve: Read this Gov. Palin Press Release

    Criminy, not only does she continue to whine about the media, she’s using official stationery to do it. That kind of temper tantrum has no place on a .gov release.

  59. 59.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    It’s not your cause.

    I continue to be amazed at the political strategy that basically calls for telling anyone who disagrees with the owners of a ’cause’ to go to hell.

    In a political context, it’s customary to try to win people over to your side. You know, with persuasion and stuff.

    Just sayin.

    Maybe constant pissant whining is not the road to success?

  61. 61.

    ricky

    John, I know you think you have ignited some screechy souls, but I got a similar reaction elsewhere just by poking fun at Pete Seeger. These people would probably complain if you posted in jest about the Steeler management’s insensitivity for not playing a Freddy Mercury ballad when the receiver got injured.

  62. 62.

    MattF

    Everyone here is so… cranky. It was a concert— y’know, like, music, singing… how is that a problem?

    And, um, @Zifnab– those major networks– ABC, NBC, CBS… they are commercial entities, last time I looked.

  64. 64.

    Tim in SF

    hi John. I’m one of those gay people who’s none too happy about Warren giving the invocation. (I’d prefer no invocation, but whatev). I’m not offended over this current Robinson imbroglio at all.

    They threw us a bone. Due to technical difficulties, they missed. Reading about all the panic and blame-shifting is more amusing than anything else. They’re falling over each other while pointing fingers and screaming "NOT MY FAULT" as loud as they can.

    Hella funny.

  65. 65.

    Howie

    Aayyyymen brotha.!

    So if the Republican party sucked before and now the Democratic party sucks too. What now?

    Are you saying, John, that all the existing political parties (that can win anything) and politicians SUCK and tis hopeless?

    But yes the Dems seem to have brought out the old playbook and rather than a revolution against the man (elites), seems that they have just brought in the old used set of Elites that left 8 years ago.

    Cept for the new man who is worshiped as the savior for getting a "new job". Like the worst "job" you could ever regret having wanted to start with.

    Can all just go ahead drop out and go off somewhere where we don’t have to care or watch this nation circle the drain any longer?

    I reckon most republicans feel the same way, cept we might get some relief for a while, maybe.

    Its been good to see you back to your old self lately, although it sucks that you have already found reason to be, "So sick of you all. Every damned one of you."

    Sigh………. (halfheartedly) Hope/Change! ……

    Its not even much fun being in opposition with the dems playing that role against themselves already.

    But try not to feel too bad you would be from a state like mine and have already watched the dems in power here make everything FUBAR.

    The state averages 180 days to pay a current bill here… So much so that bidding on state contracts is something some contractors have just stopped doing. Cause they, you know, would like to be paid…. some day….

    Guess, I’ll just go back to what I was doing and wait.

    (twiddle, twiddle twiddle)

  66. 66.

    ricky

    You people always f..k up when referring to your cause.
    What was it Dick Gregory said about why it was OK for black people to use the n word?

  67. 67.

    smiley

    @Anton Sirius: I thought he was having a stroke (he didn’t look too good), realized he wasn’t and said, out loud, "Jeebus, Herbie, just play it straight."

    @Deborah:

    Just taking a wild shot here, but guessing HBO purchased the broadcast rights because they figured it was something that would draw an audience? Capitalism and all?

    Bingo. They payed for it. I thought they were generous to play it twice free for non subscribers.

  68. 68.

    TenguPhule

    Oh for goodness sake, now I am going to get fifty comments lecturing me because I said “your cause.”

    Welcome to Liberal Blogistan.

  69. 69.

    Carlo

    @John Cole:

    How is it hurting our cause? If we don’t demand fairness and accountability on the little things, why should we expect to get it on the big things? What’s wrong with holding our politicians’ (or cable network’s) feet to the fire? What exactly is the downside of complaining?

  71. 71.

    MikeJ

    What’s wrong with holding our politicians’ (or cable network’s) feet to the fire?

    You have a cable network? Damn, I’d just fire ’em all if I were you.

  72. 72.

    smiley

    @gex:

    I wish people would grow up about the "rights" for broadcasting the works of our government.

    Wasn’t the government. Was the inaugural committee.

  73. 73.

    Tim in SF

    @Carlo: How is it hurting our cause? If we don’t demand fairness and accountability on the little things, why should we expect to get it on the big things?

    Picking your battles is a sign of wisdom.

    What exactly is the downside of complaining?

    If the gay community complains about every little thing, then people won’t take us seriously when we have something serious to bitch about.

    Think of complaining like boldfacing in text. If you use too much of it, it’s not effective.

  76. 76.

    ricky

    How is it hurting our cause? If we don’t demand fairness and accountability on the little things, why should we expect to get it on the big things?

    Leave John alone. Leave John alone. My mascara is running.
    Leave poor Johnnyn allloooone!!!!!

  82. 82.

    ricky

    I for one hope Richard Simmons abandons his fitness schtick and takes up the cause of gay outrage. Now that we have a black President, Sharpton needs a replacement.

  83. 83.

    Scott H

    @John Cole

    Oh for goodness sake, now I am going to get fifty comments lecturing me because I said “your cause.”

    Ya think?

    @TheHatOnMyCat

    I continue to be amazed at the political strategy that basically calls for telling anyone who disagrees with the owners of a ‘cause’ to go to hell.

    Citation? I don’t read anyone telling John Cole to "go to hell." Or even directing him here.

  84. 84.

    Papa Tony

    @Papa Tony: I will lecture you, because you are hurting your cause

    You’re right John, of course. We should sit down, shut up and ENJOY the back of the bus. Those uppity young men who sat at the whites-only lunch counters? Massively hurt their cause. Probably didn’t sing soothing spirituals when it would have made everybody happier.

    I could go on and on, but it’s unnecessary. If our whining and bleating (according to Old Man Cole’s perspective) puts pressure on the folks in power, then that sounds like an eventual formula for success. Gay people’s momentum is decades behind where we were in the late 70’s, due to AIDS and Republicanism. We need massive, sudden, shocking change. YOU (and other don’t rock-the-boat types) are the ones holding everybody back, dude.

    We’re pissed off because it’s 2009 and majorities are still voting on the rights of minorities. In 2009. If that doesn’t piss YOU off, then maybe you need to do an experiment.

    I double-dog dare you to walk down any major street in any town, city or village in America, in broad daylight, while holding hands with another man. Do it for a long time. Then, if you’re still physically able, you can come back and flap your jaws at me for feeling angry and unhappy. In the meantime, I believe that STFU is still in force.

  85. 85.

    sus

    When I’m in a pissy mood, people just tell me to go away. And, I do. Until I’m over it.

    John Cole gets 100 comments.

    Man… I gotta get me a blog.

    p.s. John, Yay Steelers!

    Feel better soon. Have some soup.

  87. 87.

    Maus

    I really have no idea why my fellow homos get so riled up over things like this. Seriously.

    I blame Dan Savage. I love him, but FFS Dan, STOP WITH THIS SHIT. Can we just find out what’s going on and what’s going to happen in reality before we start yelling?

    I don’t think Obama’s going to be the bridge to making grand, forceful, public sweeping statements towards gay acceptance. I don’t think that’s what Savage is expecting either, let me not strawman him too much, but I believe behind the scenes and yet still visible, we will see a LOT of good come from this administration.

    Fuck the media. Stop buying in. They are desperate to make you angry. To make you disaffected. To make you lose your optimism for ANY good. They’re pandering to the worst of America as they burn themselves to the ground. Don’t participate in their echo chamber and make everyone sick of you as well.

  88. 88.

    ricky

    Tomjones, liberlas are o.k. They know their place. Its those uppity progressives I find insufferable. Goes all the way back to LaFollette and his stinky cheese eating consistency. Or was it constituency. I’ll have to wait until Cole gets back to soliciting recipes.

  89. 89.

    Maus

    I could go on and on, but it’s unnecessary. If our whining and bleating (according to Old Man Cole’s perspective) puts pressure on the folks in power, then that sounds like an eventual formula for success. Gay people’s momentum is decades behind where we were in the late 70’s, due to AIDS and Republicanism. We need massive, sudden, shocking change. YOU (and other don’t rock-the-boat types) are the ones holding everybody back, dude.

    We’re pissed off because it’s 2009 and majorities are still voting on the rights of minorities. In 2009. If that doesn’t piss YOU off, then maybe you need to do an experiment.

    Let me clarify that I do hope that your complaining IS putting pressure on the folks in power to do the right thing(s), I just hope it’s not empowering the same media assholes that tried to take out Clinton and neutered his advances towards gay equality. I also can’t blame you for being angry either, I don’t think any progressive is happy with the status quo, and we all desperately want change.

  91. 91.

    tammanycall

    @Scott H:

    It’s not your cause.

    Well, luckily the LGTB community has the luxury of ignoring the input of other progressives, because the size of the gay voting bloc is more than adequate to advance the cause of LGTB rights.

    Oh, wait.

    Whether you like it or not, you need the support of a majority of Democrats and independents. Your opponents will exploit incidents like the recent outrage over Robinson to sway the soft undecideds into their camp. Prop 8 showed us 1.) how good they are at winning the argument "in the field" 2.) how bad "no on 8" was at even getting to the field at all.

    The LGTB community should be using this time to revamp and reorganize its political wing. New people with backgrounds in organizing should take control of the movement. Ones who know that planning pre-vote rallies in gay neighborhoods like West Hollywood is a waste of resources. That telling canvassers not to go into "ethnic" neighborhoods is not playing to win, it’s playing not to lose. Why so many are wasting time on this when they should be preparing for what is to come is beyond me.

  92. 92.

    Tim in SF

    It’s hard for me to give a shit about HBO not airing Robinson’s invocation. Gay or straight, when someone starts talking about their sky-god, I usually take it as an opportunity for a bathroom break.

  93. 93.

    tammanycall

    @Papa Tony:

    I double-dog dare you to walk down any major street in any town, city or village in America, in broad daylight, while holding hands with another man. Do it for a long time.

    Just came back from New Orleans where my best friend & his partner do this all the time. (And they are affectionate in public, kiss, etc., too.) Also my neighbor and his partner also do this and they are gay. This is Los Angeles.

  95. 95.

    John Cole

    I could go on and on, but it’s unnecessary. If our whining and bleating (according to Old Man Cole’s perspective) puts pressure on the folks in power, then that sounds like an eventual formula for success.

    If you can tell me how your whining about whether or not Gene Robinson’s prayers to invisible jeebus is on HBO changes one fucking vote in the gay rights battle, I will reassess my position.

    As it is, all gay rights activists have done the past month is make themselves look like assholes. I am for gay marriage, I will vote for it. I sent money to the folks in California. But all you stupid bastards are doing is providing ammunition to people who will use ANYTHING to destroy the first President who actually has a solid pro-gay rights record.

    Look at what you all have done the past month while “advancing the cause of gay rights.” You freaked the fuck out about some fat slob providing a few words at the invocation, providing cover to the PUMA crowd and what not to crow for weeks about “That’s not change you can believe in.”

    Then, when it was pointed out Obama has actually appointed a number of gay people to prominent positions, and gay rights activists then claimed that he was only doing it to make up for the Warren speech, providing the “He is just a pol” narrative to the haters.

    And on and on and on, whether it be DADT, Gene Robinson (THEY ARE JUST DOING THAT TO MAKE UP FOR WARREN!!!oneeleven!!) or whatever.

    You are not helping your cause. I understand the “squeaky wheel gets the grease” concept, but not when the squeaky wheel throws itself through your front window, shits on your chair, flips off the whole family, and kicks the cat. Gays should have equal rights, Prop 8 sucked hard, I understand people are hurt, but you are making yourself out to look like total morons and are attacking the wrong people.

    You want to hold Obama accountable- fine. Attack his policies when you think they are wrong. But the collective freakout over every manufactured slight is going to have me telling you to STFU on a regular basis.

  96. 96.

    GSD

    I demand that Barack Obama publicly fellate Barney Frank or else I will consider it a slap in the face and will work to get Sarah Palin elected in 2012.

    -GSD

  98. 98.

    Carlo

    @Tim in SF:

    So I take it that because of this little imbroglio, straight people/moderates who support gay rights suddenly won’t anymore?

    Or is it that fence-sitters will suddenly come out against gays?

    Seriously, I’m wondering what concrete downside there is to all this. And if it’s enough to outweigh the potential benefits, i.e. this.

  99. 99.

    rabid liberal

    The anger, such as it is, was generated by Robinson being touted as a sop to the LBGT community after the announcement that a homophobic bigot (Warren) would be doing the "real" invocation.

    Why is a backlash surprising when the supposed ‘balance’ to Warren ends up on the cutting room floor?

    R/e the hoary cliche of the "circular firing squad", this is why you want Dems in charge of things. We’re not afraid to criticize stupid decisions.

    The Republican hive mind brooks zero dissent and crushes or excommunicates anyone who doesn’t follow the program 100%. How’s that played out for the country over the last 20 odd years?

  100. 100.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    I double-dog dare you to walk down any major street in any town, city or village in America

    Said it before: I live in a large gay enclave in a very Red State. I have literally hundreds of gay neighbors. Sorry, I am not seeing the problem here. Gay and straight live here together in peace, quiet and mutual respect.

    That doesn’t mean there aren’t problems out there, but the idea that what I can see out my (nearby) window right now is somehow an anomaly …. not buying it.

  101. 101.

    Comrade Dread

    "All that because Gene Robinson wasn’t on HBO. So sick of you all. Every damned one of you."

    Yes. Yes. Let the hate flow through you…

    Also, this is a slap in the face of people who opted for Showtime. Why does Barack Obama hate us?
    ___________

    "What exactly is the downside of complaining?"

    ___________

    People are losing their homes, facing bankruptcy, looming medical bills, their second, third or fourth tour overseas, and a lot of other shitty things and you really want to bitch and whine about HBO not showing a three or four minute prayer?

    For Pete’s sake, really? That’s what you want me to focus my outrage on?

    I’m sorry, but grow up, people.

  102. 102.

    Maus

    The anger, such as it is, was generated by Robinson being touted as a sop to the LBGT community after the announcement that a homophobic bigot (Warren) would be doing the "real" invocation.

    Touted entirely by the MEDIA when Robinson was already scheduled before the Warren scuffle ever happened, correct?

  103. 103.

    Tim in SF

    @Carlo: So I take it that because of this little imbroglio, straight people/moderates who support gay rights suddenly won’t anymore? Or is it that fence-sitters will suddenly come out against gays?

    Reading comprehension isn’t your strength, is it?

    Seriously, I’m wondering what concrete downside there is to all this. And if it’s enough to outweigh the potential benefits, i.e. this.

    You really don’t seem to understand the concept of keeping your powder dry for the battles that matter.

    All this bleating over Robinson is meaningless because the Robinson slight is meaningless. And everyone making a lot of noise about it I can safely put on my "I don’t need to take this person seriously because they lose their shit over irrelevant bullshit" list.

  104. 104.

    Incertus

    @Maus: And when there was already a gay-friendly preacher giving a prayer–the benediction. Everyone seemed to forget about Rev. Lowery, didn’t they?

  105. 105.

    John Cole

    All this bleating over Robinson is meaningless because the Robinson slight is meaningless. And everyone making a lot of noise about it I can safely put on my “I don’t need to take this person seriously because they lose their shit over irrelevant bullshit” list.

    And not only that, they have added another notch to the media narrative about the “rocky transition fraught with errors” which will inevitably turn into the “rocky start fraught with missteps” narrative in 16 hours.

    But hey- they can feel smug and relevant, even though all they have done is hurt the cause of gay rights by weakening the one person who really can be an effective advocate. You know, that Obama guy they keep knee-capping.

  106. 106.

    Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)

    @Zifnab:

    Meanwhile, CNN spends a sold eight hours covering a fucking train ride. Priorities much?

    If that wasn’t history/news, then what is?

  107. 107.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    So let’s recap. The "cause" of gay rights, or whatever we are calling it today, rests on our duty to throw a fit if a tv network edits out an opening prayer from a program, because the guy who prayed was gay.

    Is that about it? Did I miss anything? The people who run a tv network made an editorial choice and because the footage on the floor was of a gay person, then gay people are outraged.

    Only in America would we not instantly decide that a story like this wasn’t from the the fucking Onion.

  108. 108.

    Comrade Dread

    So I take it that because of this little imbroglio, straight people/moderates who support gay rights suddenly won’t anymore? Or is it that fence-sitters will suddenly come out against gays?

    If people who don’t read much news and aren’t that involved in politics turn on the TV or go online and see people acting like assholes, they will be a lot less inclined to support whatever they’re supporting.

    Which is why I think that eightmaps nonsense is gold for the Yes on 8 crowd. It reeks of intimidation and all they need is one incident of vandalism or harassment and they’ll have three or four good campaign commercials for 2010.

  109. 109.

    demimondian

    @tammanycall: Actually, no, the LGBT folk have long since realized that the rest of us are pretty fucking useless for them. They make nice because they believe in something that we haven’t shown them — the rule of law.

    If they really wanted got as angry as the situation truly warrants, the Saddleback Church would already have been burned to the ground, along with the Temple in Salt Lake City. The Crystal Cathedral would be the site of a well-deserved terrorist attack. And St. Peter’s, New York, would be history.

    Think I’m lying? Do you know what Gay Pride commemorates? We’re awfully fucking lucky that they don’t take their history as seriously as they might.

  110. 110.

    rabid liberal

    "Touted entirely by the MEDIA when Robinson was already scheduled before the Warren scuffle ever happened, correct?"

    hell if I know, I don’t have a dog in this fight.

    But the Warren scuffle did happen.
    And in light of that reaction, any halfwit could have predicted a backlash to a perceived snub of Robinson.

    I don’t read much into this except "some functionary messed up", but the LBGT community is well served by reacting loudly.

    "Shut up and clap louder" didn’t do us much good the last 8 years and I for one am glad to see the end of it.

  111. 111.

    Scott H

    @John Cole

    If you can tell me how your whining about whether or not Gene Robinson’s prayers to invisible jeebus is on HBO changes one fucking vote in the gay rights battle, I will reassess my position.

    You misspoke mildly, and you might have withdrawn with a little grace and civility intact. Talk about blowing something all out of proportion.

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, HBO and the Presidential Inauguration Committee are crawling all over each other – and the PIC is losing (I notice Robinson’s invocation isn’t even noted in the PIC live blog of the event). Also, HBO has released the video for use on the PIC web site. For anyone who is interested. Which I am not.

    I appreciate your vocal and frequent support of equal rights. However, you can be patronizing when I am sure you don’t intend to be.

  114. 114.

    northstar

    This is pathetic. An oversight? A malfunction? Bad planning? Nope. A dastardly, evil conspiracy by Obama to snub the gay community.

    I’m guessing the overhead satellite Team Obama uses to beam down mind control rays must have malfunctioned after Obama snuck over and unplugged Robinson’s mike, thereby enabling people to retain there memory of events, and start a protest. His evil plan exposed. It really is shocking how prop 8 passed, isn’t it?

  115. 115.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    Which is why I think that eightmaps nonsense is gold for the Yes on 8 crowd. It reeks of intimidation and all they need is one incident of vandalism or harassment and they’ll have three or four good campaign commercials for 2010.

    I was thinking, there is nothing that could get me to actively support anti-gay measures …. until I saw eightmaps.

    Don’t FUCKING tell me that I’m subject to reprisals from other citizens for supporting a political initiative. I’ll fight you with everything I’ve got. I don’t care who you are or what you are representing.

    And if that isn’t the point of eightmaps, then what is?

  117. 117.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    Christ, demi, give it up. You sound like a fucking lunatic.

    You are a fucking lunatic, but you really don’t have to sound like one, you have choices.

  118. 118.

    Comrade Dread

    "I’m hoping to see the Inauguration Ball on Cinemax After Dark."

    Hot Secretary of Energy: Mr. President, I’d like you to clarify your strategy on pumping and drilling for more energy.

    President: Come over here and I’ll explain it to you as many times as you need me to, Baby.

    Cue loud Jazz track.

    Not that I’ve ever seen those shows…

  119. 119.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    Nothing worth saying

    Oh, now, you don’t mean that, do you?

    Surely you want to say that unless we bash HBO into showing the gay prayer 24 hours a day, queers are going to be strung up from trees and killed in every town in America …. don’t you?

    That is what you want to say, isn’t it? IT’S EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER. Right?

  122. 122.

    DougJ

    @CD

    As much as I like this idea, I’m not sure America is very ready for a gay love scene featuring Steve Chu.

  123. 123.

    Papa Tony

    John, you’re a good man. You have been running my very favorite blog for years, and I salute you. We agree on the vast majority of things. At the moment, we’re shouting past each other, and it’s not going well. I’m rubbing you the wrong way, and my anger doesn’t belong to you (personally) at all. I am a freaked-out wreck after losing hundreds (yes, hundreds) of the most important people in my life to AIDS. It warps my perspective, and makes me testy, even when I’m at my best.

    Frankly, I can see some value in your argument, but also frankly, some of it really doesn’t apply to me, personally. Just as I did on my side of the fence, you have been slinging some rather generic anger this way. We’re treating each other like cartoon characters. I don’t want to do that any more. STFU is no longer in force.

    It’s hard to know when it’s the right time to rise up and bring out all of that powder we’ve been keeping dry for so long. Our household spent almost $8,000 (on credit cards, yet, and none of it is paid off so far) trying to get Proposition 8 stopped. Everyone we knew personally was appalled that such a thing could ever pass.

    Civilization took a big step back, and we’re frothing with unexpressed passions. Random freakouts are happening because we don’t know when things are going start getting better. Sure – Obama hires some gay cake-decorators or some such, but I don’t see any GLBT champions at the Big People’s Table yet. The Clinton years are all too fresh in our minds – Soothing words, and horrid results. So far, Obama has got the soooothing words part down just fine.

    That was one short nap, dude. Here’s a hug from somebody who respects you, likes you, and doesn’t want to fight any more.

  124. 124.

    DougJ

    @demi

    Do you mean physically or metaphorically?

    I’m not getting involved in this one, I’m just curious what you two are actually saying.

  125. 125.

    Tim in SF

    @TheHatOnMyCat: And if that isn’t the point of eightmaps, then what is?

    My first impulse when I saw eightmaps was to look at the geographic distribution of contributions. I was glad to see not a single donation in my neighborhood, but still surprised to see so many in the rest of San Francisco. I checked out my old neighborhood of San Diego—no surprise of the concentration of contributions down there. All in all, I thought it was an interesting mashup.

    It never occurred to me to think of it as a "revenge" map. If anything, I would think it is a useful guide of the neighborhoods to canvass when next a proposition like this is on the ballot.

    I never made the connection you’re jumping to. I just don’t read about roving gangs of gay people beating up straight people. Although I do have friends who’ve been injured, one who was killed, by roving bands of straight guys looking to beat up a queer.

  126. 126.

    John Cole

    @Papa Tony: Right back at you.

    I think so much of what has happened the past month has been motivated by the anger of prop 8. Prop 8 was bad enough, no need for it to be the root of other bad things and self-defeating actions.

  128. 128.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    My first impulse when I saw eightmaps was to look at the geographic distribution of contributions.

    Sure, that’s why it displays addresses and occupations.

    For geographic distribution information.

    Do you really expect anyone to take that bullshit seriously?

  130. 130.

    jake 4 that 1

    Hey what about me? I don’t like watching TV. Where’s my direct-to-cranium feed damn it! And my flying car.

    And my Whitey Tape!

    Here’s the thing. If three people who are upset about something and one person says: Oh that really upsets me and does nothing, the media won’t know, won’t care. If the second person says, Fuck those assholes and (in this case) cuts his cable service or writes a letter to the offending party, the media won’t know, won’t care. But if the third person screams blue murder and waves signs and generally puts on a colorful dynamic display complete with incoherent quotes, the media will be all over him like stink on shit. (Gotta feed the beast 24 hours a day.)

    Meanwhile the media consumer only sees the person screaming blue murder and when this happens about fifty times, it can be easy to think the only response people of a particular group have to things that upset them is to scream blue murder. Multiply that affect by people flipping out in blogs and it amounts to a wee bit of suck for those of us who are too busy to picket HBO HQ or just too old to get a rageon every five seconds.

    But as I said, I don’t watch TV and I didn’t drag my lazy ass downtown yesterday so I had no idea there was an outrage afoot.

  131. 131.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    If anything, I would think it is a useful guide of the neighborhoods to canvass

    Really? You’re either stupid, or lying.

    Since when do political operations post peoples’ names, addresses and occupations, pinned to a street map, on public websites?

  132. 132.

    Deborah

    I was wrong, and someone in the Obama inaugural weekend team needs to write "I will not piss off the people to whom we are reaching out" 500 times.

    We shall now return to our positive coverage. The little girl asleep, mouth open, behind Obama during the Garth Brooks number was a cute touch. (I think it was his niece.) "Yeah, once in a lifetime event, but my lifetime is only 3 years and I’m done for the afternoon."

  134. 134.

    Incertus

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Don’t FUCKING tell me that I’m subject to reprisals from other citizens for supporting a political initiative. I’ll fight you with everything I’ve got. I don’t care who you are or what you are representing.

    Life’s tough. Get a fucking helmet. If you take sides, you have to expect reprisals of one sort or another. Deal with it or go hide under your bed.

  135. 135.

    comrade rawshark

    Since when do political operations post peoples’ names, addresses and occupations, pinned to a street map, on public websites?

    At least 140 years

  136. 136.

    Comrade Dread

    I just don’t read about roving gangs of gay people beating up straight people.

    It may never get to that level, but I’ve read about more than a few incidents where the fringe has harassed folks (usually in a church).

    It’s not good press.

    I don’t think there is a significant portion of the gay community that would do anything untoward, but there are always fringe lunatics in any group.

    Straight folks just outnumber you by 18 or 19 times, so we have a lot more lunatics.

  138. 138.

    Tim in SF

    Sure, that’s why it displays addresses and occupations.

    I think that information is available from the California Secretary of State’s website.

    It is an issue of freedom to support ballot initiatives like Prop 8. I wouldn’t begrudge anyone the right to put their money where their heart is.

    And, currently, it is the law that I am allowed to know who those people are, where they live and where they work. That is my right.

    And if I choose not to patronize those businesses, that’s my right, too. Do I really have to explain this to you?

    For geographic distribution information.

    Yeah, similar to this: http://tinyurl.com/5tdcnh

    Do you really expect anyone to take that bullshit seriously?

    Maybe mendacity is your thing, but I’m not in the habit of saying what I don’t mean.

  139. 139.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    If you take sides, you have to expec

    You’re a lunatic. If I contribute to a campaign, I should expect reprisals?

    Are you trying spoof now? Well, you might, you are no good at straight posting, I guess you might as well try something else.

    No, I don’t expect, and will not tolerate, reprisals. I will fuck any sonofabitch who tries to pull something like that against me, with a very sharp stick. You can put all the signs you want in your yard, but don’t let me catch you trying to pull down the sign in my yard. I don’t play that on you, and you don’t play that on me.

  140. 140.

    theturtlemoves

    @comrade rawshark: We’ve had Web sites for 140 years? Why the hell was I not told? I wouldn’t have had to keep checking out those photography books from the college library as a lad to look at boobies.

  141. 141.

    comrade rawshark

    I just don’t read about roving gangs of gay people beating up straight people.

    Do gays get offended when they see a man and woman kissing? Do gays hate people who aren’t gay?
    I also have never seen a roving band of gay men beating up straights and I want to know why?

  143. 143.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    I also have never seen a roving band of gay men beating up straights and I want to know why?

    If they were really committed to their cause, they’d get out there and fight like men.

  144. 144.

    Darkrose

    @Tim in SF:

    Have you actually read the text?

    I’m biased, being an extremely lapsed Episcopalian, but Robinson’s words were powerful, and if they’re heard, will resonate far longer than anything the Money-Driven Hawaiian-Shirt-Wearing Hypocrite will say tomorrow.

  146. 146.

    Comrade Dread

    And if I choose not to patronize those businesses, that’s my right, too. Do I really have to explain this to you?

    Businesses are fine.

    Though, personally, I would hope people differentiate between a business donation and a person who works for a business donating their own money as an individual.

    But residential addresses are a hazard.

    It’s poor form and, whether it’s the intent or not, in an emotional climate where passions are high on both sides, it is easily perceived as an intimidation tactic which, as evidenced by some posts here, brings out a natural ‘fuck you’ reaction in Americans. :)

  147. 147.

    Tim in SF

    I just don’t read about roving gangs of gay people beating up straight people.
    @Comrade Dread: It may never get to that level, but I’ve read about more than a few incidents where the fringe has harassed folks (usually in a church).

    Boo-fucking-hoo.

    Call me when some gay activists have nailed a congregation to a fence.

    It’s not good press.

    That’s a matter of opinion. Since marches of tens of thousands get ZERO coverage and a march into a church by a couple dozen got significant airtime, I would call the action a success. Though, granted, it’s distasteful.

  148. 148.

    Incertus

    @TheHatOnMyCat: Dumbass, reprisals come in all forms, whether getting cut off in traffic by someone who doesn’t like your bumper sticker or getting a finger in a parking lot or, yes, having people decide not to go to your place of business because you’ve supported something that offends them. That you can’t conceive of these forms of reprisals says a lot about you and your lack of imagination.

  149. 149.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    brings out a natural ‘fuck you’ reaction

    Word up. I only do about four things well, and Fuck You is definitely one of them.

    I’d take down that shitty eightmaps site if I were the people who put it up, but, it’s their problem. If they don’t have enough sense to do it, then let them suffer the consequences of epic fail public relations.

  150. 150.

    Tim in SF

    TheHatOnMyCat: I didn’t see businesses. I saw residential addresses. You’re a liar.

    You’re an asshole.

    I was talking about the Secretary of State’s website, where you can get the businesses.

    Do you need me to send you the link or can you find it yourself?

    In the meantime, go fuck yourself, jerk.

  151. 151.

    DougJ

    @Comrade Dread

    I’m with you here. “Reprisal” is too strong a word, however it’s intended, and while boycotting a business is fine, harassing someone at home isn’t.

  152. 152.

    comrade rawshark

    @theturtlemoves:

    Yes. It’s a myth that Al Gore invented the internet in the 90’s, he did that way back, after he burned Savanah and sank the Huntley.

  153. 153.

    Comrade Dread

    That’s a matter of opinion. Since marches of tens of thousands get ZERO coverage and a march into a church by a couple dozen got significant airtime, I would call the action a success. Though, granted, it’s distasteful.

    Well, if the goal is negative attention and you really want those guys to be the face of the gay rights movement, that’s your call.

    Personally, the nice, friendly, quiet gay couple who live next doors to me has been a far better voice to me than the assholes who barge into church services.

  154. 154.

    Comrade Kevin

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    I didn’t see businesses. I saw residential addresses.
    You’re a liar.

    In a very cursory look at the eightmaps site, I found more than one business in Oakland listed.

    Who is lying, now?

  155. 155.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    having people decide not to go to your place of business

    They don’t need my home address to do that, you epic stupid fuck. Even with my home address, there is no way for them know where I work. No way for that rationale to apply to me, at all. None. That’s complete bullshit.

  156. 156.

    Comrade Dread

    Yes. It’s a myth that Al Gore invented the internet in the 90’s, he did that way back, after he won the burned Savanah and sank the Huntley.

    Yes, but did he did travel to the year 3010 and stop the evil robot king?

  157. 157.

    Incertus

    @Comrade Dread: That’s great for you, but not everyone gets the message the same way, and frankly, the message isn’t always the same. Some people will respond to the message that LGBT people are just like everyone else, and others will only respond to the message that if you hit the LGBT community, it will hit back. There’s never going to be a one-size-fits-all way of going about this.

  160. 160.

    ricky

    Incertus, is it something like not being Church of Christ in West Texas? If so, time to network with the shell shocked foot washers, eh?

  161. 161.

    MikeJ

    I saw residential address on the map, and when you clicked on a pin it gave the person’s name, amount, and employer. So you could use it to boycott employers who may or may not agree with all of the political views of their employees.

  162. 162.

    Comrade Kevin

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    Did I or did I not see residential addresses on that map?
    Unless there are none, then you’re a liar.

    I never claimed there were not residential addresses on it. You, on the other hand, said that there were no businesses on it.

    I didn’t see businesses.

  163. 163.

    Comrade Dread

    @Incertus

    It’s a message that will win moderates and people who don’t pay attention to the culture war stuff in the media. "We’re normal. We’re good citizens. We’re your neighbors and we just want to be able to pursue happiness in our own way."

    If the GLBT community had run that message instead of sanitizing all of their No on 8 ads of all the icky gay people (I’m being facetious, people, lighten up), they probably would have won.

  164. 164.

    John Cole

    Anyone who can not recognize eight maps for the clear potential PR disaster that it is, and who can not recognize that it is fundamentally no different from Michelle Malkin publishing people’s addresses, needs their head examined and is probably too stupid to even argue with, even on a website with standards for debate as low as Balloon Juice.

    Period.

  165. 165.

    Maus

    No, I don’t expect, and will not tolerate, reprisals. I will fuck any sonofabitch who tries to pull something like that against me, with a very sharp stick. You can put all the signs you want in your yard, but don’t let me catch you trying to pull down the sign in my yard. I don’t play that on you, and you don’t play that on me.

    There are plenty of better ways to handle public shaming for bigotry, anyway.

    you could use it to boycott employers who may or may not agree with all of the political views of their employees.

    Yes, I definitely don’t see anything wrong with pointing out the businesses directly participating in the fray. Sobbing that you shouldn’t be financially punished for your intolerant beliefs is terrible cowardice.

  167. 167.

    Tim in SF

    @John Cole: Anyone who can not recognize eight maps for the clear potential PR disaster that it is, and who can not recognize that it is fundamentally no different from Michelle Malkin publishing people’s addresses needs their head examined and is probably too stupid to even argue with, even on a website with standards for debate as low as Balloon Juice.

    I do not recognize the similarity between Malkin posting the address of an activist on her site and sicking upon them her hordes of Morlocks, versus listing the thousands upon thousands of contributors to Prop 8. The latter is already done so by the Secretary of State. It. Is. The. Law. The information is already out there.

    I guess I need my head examined.

  169. 169.

    Comrade Doug

    @Tim in SF:

    I do not recognize the similarity between Malkin posting the address of an activist on her site and sicking upon them her hordes of Morlocks, versus listing the thousands upon thousands of contributors to Prop 8. The latter is already done so by the Secretary of State. It. Is. The. Law. The information is already out there.

    So why not just direct to the Secretary of State’s site instead of helpfully pointing out residential addresses on a map? If someone winds up with a brick through their window, then what? IOKIYAG?

  170. 170.

    Laura W

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Well, that would explain his sucky ‘tude then, wouldn’t it?
    And I do hope you’re kidding. You guys have a special thang that should not be put asunder.
    Or asover, either. Also.

  171. 171.

    Ruemara

    I just don’t read about roving gangs of gay people beating up straight people.

    You probably never will, either. Although I did have gay friends call me an ethnic slur because I and my bf kissed in public. Our straightness was an offense at a pride event, so it seems.

    Although I do have friends who’ve been injured, one who was killed, by roving bands of straight guys looking to beat up a queer.

    That’s the crux of it, the whole thing about bigots, they aren’t satisfied with ignoring you, they want to cut you off from living life and life itself.

    This whole public speaking thing isn’t worthy of the fractures it’s been generating in the progressive/Democratic community. Rick Warren’s speech ≠ Matthew Shepard’s murder. Marian Anderson ≠ Emmett Till. A hand out to that bloated, nutbag, who espouses anti-feminist views in addition to his scintillating ideas about homosexuals is objectionable, but isn’t the betrayal that Don’t Ask Don’t Tell or DOMA was. If anything, this whole wooing the republicans thing is making their schism permanent and so justly disempowering them. And trust me, I’d do away with opening prayers in a heartbeat. I elected a secular rep, not a messiah.

    The problem I have with the raging "Obama hates teh gays" thing is the idea that he, personally, selected all the acts and in a supreme mindfuck to gays who worked on his campaign and donated time, to their own detriment-in the case of gays in FL & CA-invited a gay preacher as a sop and then deliberately told HBO to ignore him. I think, and this is just MHO, he may be focused on other stuff.

    HBO says the PIC said he was part of the "pre-show", the PIC says they intended for him to be broadcast. As a person who’s worked to broadcast live shows, both can be telling you the absolute truth. You’d be surprised how often savvy media types have no clue what the terms mean that they’re slinging around. You say broadcast the show, thinking that’s the invocation too, broadcaster hears "go live for just the concert & speech".

    I know we’re just stepping out from possibly the worst president (I hope he turns out to be) America’s history and we’ve been fighting against the republican media juggernaut for what seems to be forever, but can we quit shooting each other? It really does make the RW media cream their prompters and we will need a united force to make Democratic party leaders act…democratic.

    I now return to lurking.

  172. 172.

    Comrade Dread

    Yes, the information is public.

    But you are now publicizing it, advertising that fact to a community that is hurt and angry, and putting it into a helpful map format so they can, if they want to, find a ‘bigot’ to express their feelings to.

    Kind of like the Red State crew publishing the address of the Tennessee speaker of the assembly to their partisans. It’s public information, and I’m sure the Strike Force gang just wants to legally express their strong feelings about his actions in a rational and completely logical fashion.

  175. 175.

    Incertus

    @John Cole: No, you’re not right, because the phone book often has lots of people with the same name in it. You do something like that and you’re asking for a modern-day instance of Cinna the Poet from Julius Caesar. I know you’re being a little facetious, but the fact is that the quality of the information that eightmaps–information that, as Tim in SF pointed out, is publicly available as a matter of law–is not the same kind of information you used in your example.

    Here’s the choice we seem to be faced with. We can go back to the days of no transparency, where people can bankroll all the referenda they want and never be called to account for it, or you can recognize that, in California at least, if you donate to a campaign, other people can find out about it. I’ll take the latter every time.

  176. 176.

    ThymeZoneThePlumber

    I definitely don’t see anything wrong with pointing out the businesses directly participating in the fray.

    You are lying and making a failed strawman argument.

    I saw occupations listed for public employees (governments, schools). I saw addresses that could be public facilities.

    Suppose I work at the airport. My nearby airport is one of the busiest in the world. It’s about the size of Rhode Island. Suppose your website picks up that I made a contribution to some political campaign, and puts my name, my employment address, and my occupation on public display.

    Are you going to claim that there is a legitimate purpose to that? What are you going to do, boycott the airport because I work there? Or the high school? Or the fire station?

    There is one and only one purpose for that fucking website and it is harassment, pure and simple, and anybody who claims otherwise is a baldfaced liar. Period, end of story.

  178. 178.

    DougJ

    Lynchings still happen, dude—queers are right to be angry and afraid.

    I agree that queers are right to be angry and afraid, but can you really give me a bunch of examples of actual lynchings of gay people that happened recently?

  179. 179.

    demimondian

    @Maus: Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

    For *some* people — even for most people, yes, polite disagreement is the best solution. But not for *all* people — and any activist movement which forgets that some of its enemies are subhuman trolls who will only stop trying to kill when they are themselves dead and buried will soon have a large number of dead members.

    That’s a fact, and it’s one that people forget all too easily. As to the whole eightmaps business — large donor maps are a public record which is *designed* for public consumption. If your position is such that you will face opprobrium to hold it, and you don’t have the guts to face the music — then maybe you shouldn’t give money to thugs, eh?

    Want a map of donors to Darcy Burner’s campaign? It’s available. Want a map of >$200 donors to JSM,III? Yup, it’s available. Want a map of >$200 donors to Prop H8? Yup — it’s available. And you can’t hide behind religious belief when you cross into political activity.

    Don’t like it? Tough.

  180. 180.

    J.D. Rhoades

    The people who run a tv network made an editorial choice and because the footage on the floor was of a gay person, then gay people are outraged at the President-Elect who had nothing to do with the decision.

    Fixed.

  181. 181.

    John Cole

    @Incertus: Bullshit. The objection about Malkin posting addresses wasn’t that THEY MIGHT BE WRONG.

    Get that shit out of here. It is quite clear what eightmaps is, and it was created for exactly the same reason that Malkin releases addresses, that Red State prints addresses, and that anti-abortion activists release addresses of abortion providers. That transparency you claim to want- it is already there at the Secretary of State’s website. Eightmaps is just a handy-dandy map for people to get their own hate on.

  182. 182.

    MikeJ

    I think it’s neat the way people give lectures about bad PR and more flies with honey, etc and at the same time call people fucking baldfaced liars.

  183. 183.

    Maus

    It really does make the RW media cream their prompters and we will need a united force to make Democratic party leaders act…democratic.

    All of the media seems RW unless they’re being worthless unconstructive sycophants. That sort of fawning may impress the RedState army and their elite Sarah Squadron, but we don’t need fairweather "friends" like those writing puff pieces.

    We need real news, to purge this faux "human interest" glurge, and to upscale the level of discourse to something appropriate for people who have graduated high school. But yes, I agree. It is a liberal "personal matter", and should be discussed amongst this "family", not picked over by the wolves and shown as a sign of weakness. Our ability to talk without fracturing as much as the consevatives, to handle alternative points of view should be our STRENGTH, not laughed at by newscasters and the networks as weakness.

    Well, one note of pride is that clearchannel is cutting people. I can only hope that with all those auto ads going down the tubes, that conservative talk radio will suffer as well. Sadly, those idiots will buy all the enzyte dick pills, homeopathic creams, head-on, and airborne that their little er, hearts desire. They’re a very lucrative market.

  185. 185.

    John Cole

    And just so we are clear, I have ZERO problem with folks putting together a list of businesses, and prominently and publicly posting the business names for a boycott. I would support the boycott.

    But handy maps with directions to people’s homes? We all know what the intent of that is, and we know what they are saying when they do that.

  186. 186.

    Incertus

    @John Cole: So if eightmaps had simply linked to the SecState’s website, you wouldn’t have a problem with it? That’s a really weak distinction to my mind. Plus, unless eightmaps is actually advocating contacting these people, and based on what I’m looking at, they aren’t, then they’re still worlds away from what RedState and Malkin have done in the past. You may not agree that there’s a distinction, but I think there is. Malkin openly calls on her trolls to fuck with people. So does RedState. Eightmaps doesn’t.

  187. 187.

    John S.

    @ Incertus:

    if you donate to a campaign, other people can find out about it. I’ll take the latter every time.

    I hope you remember this impeccable line of reasoning the next time a referendum to ban abortion goes up for a vote and someone posts a map to show where all the baby-killers live and some nutjob goes on a killing spree.

    As long as the person who posts the map doesn’t actually call for executions, then no harm intended – amirite?

  188. 188.

    NonWonderDog

    Is eightmaps really any different from this? Donations are public info, and I don’t see any particular harm by putting all the info on a map instead of in a list.

  190. 190.

    Cain

    JSF- why am I supposed to be mad at you? If you tell me, maybe I can muster the energy to put up a good show.

    Dunno, you’re putting a good show right now :-) Although I’m somewhat distracted by Demi and Cat fighting with each other.

    cain

  191. 191.

    John S.

    @ demimondian:

    This is the Real Thing—Murder.

    A little perspective goes a long way.

    American citizens are murdered every day for no other reason than being black, Jewish, Muslim, etc. You should use that fancy Google of yours to establish the balance of hate crimes in this country. Here, I’ll do you a solid and provide the link. And this handy excerpt:

    An analysis of data for victims of single-bias hate crime incidents showed that:

    * 52.0 percent of the victims were targeted because of the offender’s bias against a race.
    * 17.1 percent were victimized because of a bias against a religious belief.
    * 15.9 percent were targeted because of a bias against a particular sexual orientation.
    * 14.1 percent were victimized because of a bias against an ethnicity/national origin.
    * 0.9 percent were targeted because of a bias against a disability.

    Now stop your hyperventilating.

  192. 192.

    demimondian

    @John S.: In fact, people who’ve dealt with the gay rights movement as far back as I have know *exactly* what John and others have been talking about. We’ve faced the bigots who "knew where we lived".

    It was fair then, and it is fair now.

  193. 193.

    demimondian

    @John S.: Um — yeah, so somehow it’s OK the 1 in six hate crimes in America is sexual orientation based?

    Sorry, it’s just the hysterical girly man in me leaking out. I’m sorry, so sorry.

  194. 194.

    Incertus

    @John S.: The problem is the nutjob, not the map. Don’t want to be on the map, don’t donate money. And as I said above, if the choice is between more transparent elections and less transparent elections, I’m going for more transparent. I’m also going for more funding to make sure that nutjobs get the mental health care they need. And I’m also very much in favor of going after, legally, people who incite others to violence, as some anti-abortion nutjobs have done in the past. But pretending like making the information accessible is the real problem is simple-headed.

  195. 195.

    Xanthippas

    Obviously I wasn’t paying attention for the fifteen minutes that this was going around the blogosphere, because I have no idea what any of this is about.

  196. 196.

    Maus

    @demimondian

    How about 11 bars in the Seattle area promised ricin attacks after 11.04.08? Dues mass murder qualify as a lynching?

    Not to argue with the rest, but in Capitol Hill, the assumption from the tone and content of the letters is that they came directly from within the gay community. Perhaps as a sick prank and/or retaliation from someone who’s mentally ill. Either way, I’ve gone to a number of those bars and will be interested to find out whenever that person confesses, because people are usually too dumb to keep those sorts of attention-whorey secrets for long.

  197. 197.

    John Cole

    As Demi and Incertus will tell you all, throughout history, in the movies, when the bad guy came up to another character, looked at them menacingly and jabbed a finger in their chest and growled “I know where you live,” it goes without saying that the full meaning and intent of that statement was “I know where you live, and now I am going to boycott your business, so you better watch out. Plus, since the information is publicly available, I am fully in my rights.”

    Right, guys?

    Cut the crap. Eightmaps is clear in its intent- intimidation. You can fall back on the weak excuses if you want (“Don’t donate if you don’t want people to know where you live!” or “The Secretary of State has the info already!”) and the other assorted bravado, but we all know what the point was of eightmaps -to send the message “We know where you live.” It is bullshit.

    If the intent is to just provide information so you can boycott businesses, take down the damned maps and put a list of businesses up like I have suggested. That would actually be useful. If they have already done that, then the maps are redundant and unneccessary.

    But, otherwise, quit pissing on my back and telling me it is raining. The intent of this was intimidation, and it reeks. You should be ashamed. If Red State had a map up of homosexuals and friends of homosexuals up, telling you “Hey- this is where they live,” you would be outraged, and you would be right. Even if the information was available at the Secretary of State website.

  199. 199.

    demimondian

    @Maus: Hmm.

    Well, I don’t live in Cap Hill, and my contact with the Seattle gay community is limited (I live on the East Side). However, back in the day, when St. Francis’ House got that kind of letter, it wasn’t typically from a kook in the gay community, but from a kook in the allegedly Christian community.

  200. 200.

    John S.

    Um—yeah, so somehow it’s OK the 1 in six hate crimes in America is sexual orientation based?

    Fuck off if you’re going to be so willfully obtuse.

    Of course it isn’t OK that ANYONE is the victim of hate crime. But you’ve spouting off as if homosexuals are victim #1 on that front, and it simply isn’t so.

    I don’t live in fear of being Jewish (and I have been the target of a hate crime for it, TYVM). I don’t think most black folk live in fear of being black. And homosexuals shouldn’t live in fear, either, if those two groups don’t, since they are the targets of nearly 70% of all hate crime.

    Like I said, perspective.

  201. 201.

    Carlo

    Regarding eightmaps, we don’t actually know for sure what its creator’s intentions are, since they’re completely silent on their identity and motivations. It’s plausible that he/she intended reprisals of a verbal or violent sort. But maybe not. It could have just been an (admittedly risky/misguided) attempt at making public information more accessible for campaign or advocacy purposes.

    My own instinct was simply to see if a Mormon friend of mine had donated to the campaign. If he had, I would have re-evaluated my friendship with that man, and perhaps sat down and had a conversation with him regarding gay rights/marriage. (Fortunately he didn’t, so awkwardness averted). Granted, I could have found that out using existing databases, but eightmaps sure made it easy. In any case, it didn’t occur to me to visit any sort of violence on anyone.

    Until we actually hear of any case where someone in eightmaps experiences harassment/violence as a result of their being there, I think the comparisons with Malkin (who actively urged reprisals) are unfair. Intentions and effects are both important in judging an action: In this case the intentions are unknowable, and the effects so far are nonexistent (as far as I know). Until either of these change, I don’t see what the big deal is.

  202. 202.

    John S.

    The problem is the nutjob, not the map.

    Guns don’t kill people – people kill people!

    Are you a card-carrying member of the NRA, or do you just like their way of explaining things? To flip it on it’s head…

    The information isn’t the problem, it’s what people DO with the information that is the problem.

  203. 203.

    demimondian

    @John Cole: Of course the intent was intimidation — but there’s a bit of difference between "intimidation" in the form of "hey, sucka, you’re gonna see a lot of people boycott your business" (which is what eightmaps has been used for) and "hey, sucka, you see this baseball bat? I’m gonna use it on your skull." Which is what the thugs back in Madison seemed to have in mind.

    There *haven’t* been physical threats against people on the maps. That’s a non-trivial fact. The gay community has responded as it should have, by shunning people and their businesses. You hurt me, I hurt you, but proportionately.

    So, yes, it is intimidation — but it is not the threat of beating people. I’ve been through that. They are different.

    As you say, don’t piss on my head and tell me its raining.

  204. 204.

    Carlo

    But regarding the effect of intimidation: okay, I admit I’d be uncomfortable if my name and address were put up on any public map in association with a sensitive issue. But that little bit of intimidation, sans any actual threat or confrontation, is infinitely minor compared to the harassment (and outing!) faced by guys throughout the decades, not to mention our rights to marry being voted away from us.

  205. 205.

    Carlo

    But I will agree with John that eightmaps has the potential to be a disaster in many ways, including as a PR disaster for the gay rights movement. The fact that it hasn’t yet says much about the gay community, I like to think.

  206. 206.

    John S.

    There haven’t been physical threats against people on the maps.

    Which of course is so simple to prove.

    If someone on those maps is a target of violence, what are the odds that the perpetrator is going to say "I targeted this person because of eightmaps"? What are the odds that the police would even connect a random act of violence with such a thing?

    The fact that it hasn’t yet says much about the gay community, I like to think.

    I agree 100%. Lucky for the creators of eightmaps, the GLBT community isn’t nearly as violent or deranged as their ideological opposites.

  207. 207.

    John Cole

    If you are admitting the entire point is intimidation, no matter what the degree, you have already ceded the moral high ground.

    That is precisely why this is wrong. As an organizing tool, it is useless, as a collated list of organizations to boycott would be much more effective.

    As it is, this is nothing but a tool for intimidation, and shameful, and the fact that nothing bad has happened makes it no less shameful. By that logic, there is nothing wrong with MM or others publishing addresses, so long as “nothing bad happens.”

    Wrong is wrong.

  208. 208.

    gil mann

    Holy fucking Christ. This is the quality of dialogue amongst nominal allies? This country is so beyond fucked.

    Oh, and since this is apparently where the Most Oppressed Olympics is being held, I was gay-bashed once, and I’m straight. Beat that.

    p.s. a bunch of black kids saved my presumedly-gay ass that time, so that’s the "Yay America" side of the story

    p.p.s. if you’ve got a vested interest in not being perceived as homosexual, rollerblading while wearing a "Powerpuff Girls" hat and sporting a meiticulously-crafted Van Dyke probably ain’t the way to go

  209. 209.

    Blue Raven

    I dunno… I’m still seeing hyperbole and deliberately emotion-laden analogies coming from people who want to be taken seriously.

    And maybe it’s my own experiences as a bi woman feeding my interpretation, but I once again see what looks to me like gay white males trying to tell the rest of us queers what we should be upset about.

    I’m not going to get all harpy-like about it this time, though. Can’t be arsed. I see larger battles that need fighting. Who gets seen praying for whom is nowhere near as important as hate crimes and legislative bigotry. Channel the outrage already, damn it, or too many people’s deaths will remain in vain for far too long.

  210. 210.

    Conservatively Liberal

    I also have never seen a roving band of gay men beating up straights and I want to know why?

    You damn well know that there are gangs of gay dudes going around beating up straights. Why are we not hearing about it? What dude wants to admit that he was jumped by a bunch of gay dudes and got his ass kicked?! He may as well pull out the chainsaw and lop his manhood off. These straights are suffering in silence and your denial of their reality isn’t helping them one bit. They need people to speak up for them even though they deny they were ever victimized.

    /wingnut

  211. 211.

    sus

    Intimidation will backfire. Not a good plan.
    Orly Taitz’s blog posts names, addresses, phone numbers of Obama’s relatives and ask’s her "patriots" to call and visit them to interview for info. She posted another relative’s name and address in Chicago (I think) and asked someone to visit him and try to get him to sign a release form to get documents. Of course, she’s nuts. Still. Not a good thing.

    ========

    Also, it’s funny to see how many are outraged at HBO. And, yeah, they shoulda broadcast it. Still, some are going to boycott HBO because of it. And, if you go to the rightwingnut land (like RosettaSister’s blog), they are boycotting HBO because they broadcast the opening ceremony/concert for that illegal alian who won’t show his birth certificate, etc.

    ========

    Fun times.

    Me? I haven’t felt this optimistic about Government in a long, long time. And, I know I’ll be disappointed at times. But, in the bigger picture, I am optimistic.

    .

  212. 212.

    Blue Raven

    212 – An acquaintance of mine of the right-wing persuasion insists on carrying concealed without a license in SF because he thinks he’s at risk of being raped. I never had the heart to point out the man-on-man rape in SF is mostly date rape or gangs of young men who target gays who fit the stereotypes. It would have hurt his feelings to know he wasn’t their type.

  213. 213.

    kay

    I think the maps are a terrible idea, politically, and a disaster if you like political speech.
    People don’t like being intimidated, they just dig in, and no one who isn’t dug in (the people you want to persuade) is going to listen to this elaborate argument about how it’s publicly available, and no one has been harassed yet, as far as we know, or it’s payback for intimidation visited on gay people.

    It feels like intimidation to me, and I support "your cause". How does it feel to someone you’re hoping to persuade? Less like intimidation? I doubt it.

  214. 214.

    Dave_No_Longer_Laughing

    What the hell? This is conservative and libertarian speak.

    being a democrat means saying whatever the fuck you want, and liking whoever the fuck you want, and hating whoever the fuck you want.

    No it does not. It means knowing your place and not speaking out of turn. Wait until 21 Jan 09 and beyond, you’ll see.

    Pity the pro-life democrats (they’re out there), and what about the anti-rock music democrats (Tipper Gore, anyone?), and the pro-war democrats (ever look at Hillary!’s voting record?)… It’s about a uniform front, any deviation is counter-revolutionary.

    However, I have faith that the left-wing will be pushed away from President Obama and we’ll have a good center-left time of it. It will be fun watching the show!

  215. 215.

    demimondian

    @John Cole: If you give money to Prop H8, then I’m going to boycott your shop, whether you gave money as the shop or as yourself. I’m going to make it as hard as possible for you to stay in business. I will take my patronage to gay-friendly businesses, and encourage my friends and acquaintances to do the same. I will do that whether you gave money as your private self, or as your business entity. To me, it just doesn’t matter.

    And, John, I do recognize that tactic. It’s the same one that the bigots used back in Arkansas after Central High. It’s intimidation, and calling it by any other name is simply putting lipstick on a pig.

  216. 216.

    demimondian

    @Dave_No_Longer_Laughing: Poor Dave. Sucks to be known as a loser, doesn’t it?

    Don’t worry — you should take pride in your utter failure and your laughable irrelevance. You got it the hard way — you earned it.

  217. 217.

    Dave_No_Longer_Laughing

    No way, I voted for Allen Keyes and expected (and commented about it on this blog) Obama to win.

    You’re still a retard, though, and will always be a retard.

  218. 218.

    demimondian

    @Dave_No_Longer_Laughing: I remember that you voted for Alan "My daughter is not a lesbian, I have no daughter" Keyes. Like I said, you’re a known loser. Sucks to have been revealed as a complete failure in ideology and life, doesn’t it.

    Don’t worry — I’m sure that they’ll tell you that everyone’s a winner in your Special Olympics. You can ignore the people pointing at you and laughing, since you won’t recognize how the real Special Olympians actually show a lot of bravery and drive.

  221. 221.

    sus

    Nobody voted for Keyes. He’s just trying to egg you on. I don’t think Keyes got a vote. Not even sure he voted for himself.

    Keyes just filed another suit against Obama. Only thing Keyes is good at is being a sore loser.

  222. 222.

    gil mann

    I will do that whether you gave money as your private self, or as your business entity. To me, it just doesn’t matter.

    We should just conduct all our squabbles this way. Like if you’re pro-life, you could find out if some chick at Radio Shack ever gave to Planned Parenthood, and uh, I dunno, go somewhere else, somewhere that won’t ask you for your address and phone number when you buy a goddamn $2.99 set of ear buds, somewhere that doesn’t sell remote-control "Transformers" cars that don’t fucking transform into robots.

    Sorry, I hate that place. My point is, way to legitimize a tactic that’s way more likely to be used against "us" than "them." Dude, it’s not boycotting, it’s intimidation. If you want to argue that it’s okay to intimidate assholes, that’s a different argument.

  223. 223.

    demimondian

    @gil mann:

    If you want to argue that it’s okay to intimidate assholes, that’s a different argument.

    That is exactly what I argue.

    The right to protest is *exactly* the right to make people’s lives Hell. There are rules about what we can do within that context — we may not threaten physical violence, nor may we attempt to prevent essential life services from being provided. That’s what distinguishes us from the Nuremberg List or the other terrorists. Beyond that? Sorry, gil, that’s *exactly* what protest is about.

    When you talk about non-violent protest, you need to remember why it is so powerful. Contrary to the very white rewrite of MLK’s legacy, his tactics were devastating to cities — they shut them down. He didn’t have to hurt *anyone* to destroy their businesses — who’s going to buy ice cream at your shop when there’s a picket surrounding it?

    Non-violence is all about intimidation. It’s not about doing physical harm, but it is all about making those who act badly pay a price in wealth and status. It’s about making those who do bad things live with the consequences of those things — but it isn’t about changing their minds. It is based on the assumption that there are bad people, and that their minds *can’t* be changed — but that their neighbors’ minds probably can.

  224. 224.

    gil mann

    The right to protest is exactly the right to make people’s lives Hell.

    So whichever side has the most berzerkers wins, then. Sorry I questioned you; clearly you’ve got the recipe for making progressive gains down to a science.

  226. 226.

    rawshark

    @MikeJ:

    I saw residential address on the map, and when you clicked on a pin it gave the person’s name, amount, and employer. So you could use it to boycott employers who may or may not agree with all of the political views of their employees.

    So if I voted for something you didn’t like and I worked at the Gap you’d boycott the Gap? This is effective? Who’s being taught a lesson here and what’s the lesson?
    Unless you stage a huge protest and get managements attention, tell them I’m the reason you’re doing this and get me fired what are you doing?

  227. 227.

    Jeff

    I’m just waiting for the Domestic Partnership Initiative to start gathering signatures for 2010.

    The proposed measure calls for the term "marriage" to be removed from government legislation. The State of California’s Law code would have "marriage" replaced with "domestic partnership," while the definition and rights provided would remain the same….

  228. 228.

    Maus

    So if I voted for something you didn’t like and I worked at the Gap you’d boycott the Gap? This is effective? Who’s being taught a lesson here and what’s the lesson?
    Unless you stage a huge protest and get managements attention, tell them I’m the reason you’re doing this and get me fired what are you doing?

    http://la.eater.com/archives/2008/11/12/el_coyote_prop_8_press_conference_goes_horribly_awry.php

    When people talk about boycotts, they mean something a bit more targeted. Executives, managers, companies, people who actually DO care about this, not just retail drones.

  229. 229.

    Martin

    The right to protest is exactly the right to make people’s lives Hell.

    What? No.

    Protests are to be directed at those in power. People that give small donations are no more in power than anyone else. Protests directed at those not in power are nothing more than harassment.

    If the protestors have clearly more power in society than those being protested against, then something is very wrong.

  230. 230.

    gwangung

    If the protestors have clearly more power in society than those being protested against, then something is very wrong.

    Well, yes…take a look at wingnut protests.

  231. 231.

    gil mann

    Sucks to be a weak-hearted self-loving liberal, doesn’t it. So sorry.

    I’m all heart, motherfucker. I’d be willing to trade some of it for smarts, but it doesn’t work that way, and I’ve given up far too much in the name of living my beliefs to take shit from people who think running their mouths on the internet counts as activism.

    As for self-loving, well, my clinical depression and attendant suicidal ideation ain’t your business and certainly ain’t your problem, but since you’re apparently trying to fill in every box on the Wrong About Shit checklist, figured I’d toss another data point out there.

    "Those to whom evil is done do evil in return" is supposed to be a lament, not a rallying cry. But hey, have fun appropriating the methods used by horrible scumbags the world over, because only sellouts think the ends don’t always justify the means, right?

  232. 232.

    gil mann

    Checking back just to confirm my suspicion, and yep, my first two paragraphs shouldn’t be there. Except the first sentence because I so am.

    I apologize for letting it get personal, and if you’ll allow me to completely miss the point of blogs for a second, just put aside the zingers and whatnot and really hear me out, okay?

    I was like

    So whichever side has the most berzerkers wins, then.

    And you were all

    @gil mann: Um..yes.

    Seriously, do you not get the practical implications of what you’re saying? This isn’t about right and wrong. This is about you picking a knife fight with Carrie.*

    I mean, yeah, the whole "beat the hate out of ’em" approach is morally wrong to boot, but the ethics are sort of obviated by the fact that you’re playing by your opponents’ rules, on their turf, wearing their jerseys, staring at their cheerleaders’ asses (I’m not being heteronormative, there’re guy cheerleaders, though you’d think they could at least show a little knee). and you’re so outnumbered it’s not even funny.

    Plus it’s like the epitome of "Step 3: Profit!" I honestly don’t see the angle beyond your belief (well-founded from where I’m sitting, mind) that some people deserve to have you all up in their faces. Maybe that is the angle, I dunno.

    *there’s a scene where she telekinetically attacks her mom with a Ginsu set—when it comes to pop analogies, always go for apt over recognizable, that’s my motto

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