Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

He really is that stupid.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

This really is a full service blog.

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

Whatever happens next week, the fight doesn’t end.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

Consistently wrong since 2002

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

You are here: Home / Music / Another Open Thread

Reader Interactions

196Comments

  1. 1.

    Jerkface McGee

    That Slate article is annoying and lazy, check out Chuck Klosterman’s essays on Billy Joel instead.

  2. 2.

    Lesley

    Sounds like Cooper had his mouth novocained. The words kept falling out of his mouth without any shape to them.

  5. 5.

    Ned R.

    @Jerkface McGee: Hahah, well that doesn’t help me, I hate both Klosterman AND Joel. Seriously, it’s like they both exist to remind me "Oh right, there are people like that out there in the world, and they are not satiric inventions of my imagination."

  7. 7.

    Jim

    Screw Ron Rosenbaum. What an elitist fucking snob. He’s one of those types who HAS to hate anything or anyone who is commercially successful because to do otherwise would mean he couldn’t have that air of superiority and look down on those unwashed masses who are soooooo stupid. Critics of all the arts are generally snobby elitists who somehow get their rocks off watching extraordinarily boring films, or listening to music with seemingly intelligent lyrics that upon closer inspection are mind-numbingly incoherent.

  8. 8.

    Incertus

    I don’t know that anyone hates Billy Joel as badly as Rosenbaum seems to. I’ve never seen spittle flecks rendered into html before, at least not when talking about music.

  9. 9.

    theturtlemoves

    This is a prime target for Sully’s Poseur Award. I think the tipoff to me was this part:

    Compare The Band’s beautiful, subtle tribute to Dylan’s entertainer insecurities in "Stage Fright." I love the line in that song, "he got caught in the spotlight": such a haunting image of a shy entertainer.

    Yeah, "caught in the spotlight". That is really freaking profound. I don’t think I have ever, in my life, heard that phrase uttered before, ever. Also. Then when later he has to establish his own man of the people cred, O’Reilly-style? Comedy gold.

  10. 10.

    Ned R.

    @Jim: listening to music with seemingly intelligent lyrics that upon closer inspection are mind-numbingly incoherent

    I dunno, sounds like Billy Joel to me…

    Okay, I’ll stop — we all have our hobby horses and bete noires, obv. Some things work, some things don’t. Rosenbaum doesn’t do himself any favors with that article, mind you — twenty years ago I would have enjoyed that as the height of angry irritation, these days I’m hopefully more mellow about such things. Yesterday I was out shopping at Amoeba and they played the new Animal Collective, a band who leave me flat at best, but rather than stewing in my own juices about it I just finished shopping and stepped outside.

  11. 11.

    Dave Herman

    Candidate for most un-self-aware quote of the day:

    And I think I’ve done it! I think I’ve identified the qualities in B.J.’s work that distinguish his badness from other kinds of badness: … Both a self-righteous contempt for others and the self-approbation and self-congratulation that is contempt’s backside, so to speak.

  12. 12.

    Shalimar

    I like Billy Joel, mostly the 70s stuff, but my reaction to the article was still "you care that much about Billy Joel’s music? And you’re not in an asylum somewhere? Get a grip on reality, he honestly shouldn’t be that important to anyone other than his family and friends."

  14. 14.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    Which brings me to Billy Joel—the Andrew Wyeth of contemporary pop music—and the continuing irritation I feel whenever I hear his tunes

    Aww come on man. Anyone who cannot handle a little Joel once in a while (Piano Man? New York State of Mind?) and thinks he’s just a continuing irritation just CANNOT HANDLE PRESSURE!

  16. 16.

    Crusty Dem

    Rosenbaum is a douche. Talk about the easiest column to write. "I’m reluctant to pick on Billy Joel", followed by a 2000 words of venom. It’s fine to hate Billy Joel, but to come up with the concept that he has contempt for the subjects of his song, and to attack him for being a "fake common man". Well, duh. Is he going to write songs about how he had to wait 5 minutes for his limo driver since he lost his license for DUI? Is he going to sing about how he doesn’t have any groupies any more so he had to get 2 $5000/night prostitutes last night? I don’t think so.

    Although he should, because that would be awesome.

    And honestly, how can you critique how much Billy Joel sucks without even mentioning "We Didn’t Start the Fire"?

  18. 18.

    Jennifer

    So Rosenbaum has an irrational hatred of Billy Joel. We all have some group/artist/celebrity/etc. that inspires our ire. For me, it’s Huey Lewis and the News and Sandra Bullock. I could explain why, but it doesn’t matter – it would do nothing to stop their continuing and incomprehensible popularity with some and in the end, wouldn’t explain whether they are "good" or "bad". (Of course, they’re both bad; very, very BAD.)

    I will say this about Rosenbaum’s rant, and about my own personal picks for Worst. EVAR.: it seems that mediocrity rather than out and out awfulness inspires more contempt than colossal badness. I mean, at least something that gets it so REALLY wrong that it can never attain popularity as anything other than a joke is entertaining. Mediocrity is merely boringly excruciating, because it’s not bad enough to be passed off as a joke, and as such, you can be sure you will be subjected to it over and over and over again.

  19. 19.

    Crusty Dem

    I can’t wait for Rosenbaum’s next cultural screeds:

    "Let me tell you how much Celine Dion sucks"

    "I think Madonna and Britney have tried to use sex appeal to cover up the fact that they just don’t sing very well"

    "Zamfir: Master of the Pan Flute? More like masturbator of his hand flute.. huh huh huh."

  20. 20.

    theturtlemoves

    @Jennifer: My personal Shibboleth is Fiona Apple. Pretentious, annoying crap. The hipsters who hate Billy Joel probably love Fiona, but her voice makes me want to stick knitting needles in my ears. So, yeah, everyone has their own tastes…

  21. 21.

    Lavocat

    Now Ron is a Slate ("pretend") journalist
    Who never had time for a life
    And his writing is lazy; he’s still batshit crazy
    And probably will be for life

  22. 22.

    Adolphus

    This article reminded me of the chestnut that hate is not opposite of love, indifference is. Any artist that can inspire that much raw emotion, even negative emotion, must have something to say and says it a manner that is important and notable on some level.

    I like a lot of Billy Joel songs, most the early stuff, but the rest is forgettable pop tunes. I can’t think of any pop artist I dislike so much I would bother to write so much about. It’s just not worth the time. Joel is important to Rosenbaum, no matter how much the latter would like to deny it. He doth protest too much.

  23. 23.

    demkat620

    @Crusty Dem:
    Yeah, I never got Billy Joel. I don’t hate him or find him more annoying than say, Phil Collins or Creed but, I just never got why everybody thought he was such a big deal.

  24. 24.

    Mike

    I completely enjoyed Rosenbaum’s takedown of Jeff Jarvis awhile back, so I’m reluctant to hate on him here. Rarely has a man needed to be kicked in the nuts more than Jarvis.

  25. 25.

    Lesley

    @JL Apparently Diane Sawyer was a mess on air too. I’ve done the news on radio when tired and stumbled some but never this bad. Still, can’t believe they’d actually let him on the air intoxicated.

  28. 28.

    kid bitzer

    yeah, i always thought bj was crap, and doing a bad job of the kind of mag-pie genre-sampling that mccartney did better.

    still–i remember thinking that thought back around 1979, and that was thirty years ago, and i haven’t given the guy any thought since then.

    so, rosenbaum definitely needs a life.

    (also–i always liked ‘you’re only human’, for the rhythm track. good driving song.)

  29. 29.

    Incertus

    @Jennifer: At least Huey Lewis vanished from the music scene. That really seems to be Rosenbaum’s beef–that Billy Joel not only made music he found mediocre, but that he’s made shitloads of money doing it and continues to do so.

    What he seems to miss, to me at least, is that Billy Joel is the rule, not the exception. Mediocrity is generally what sells. The biggest selling poets in the last 15 years, not including people who’ve made their names in other genres and crossed over? Probably Billy Collins and Maya Angelou, the epitomes of mediocre poetry. How often is a blockbuster movie anything other than mediocre? It’s rare enough that it’s a big deal when it happens, and the mediocre ones outsell the good ones by a factor of thousands. You can expand that to visual arts, to literature, to drama, to other musical genres, and even to manufactured goods, though I think you’ll have more exceptions there.

  30. 30.

    Laura W

    I went on record with my antipathy for Joel on Thanksgiving Day, no less. I would even choose a parade (shudder) over Joel.

    @South of I-10:

    How can you hate parades?

    Easily, it seems. I hate a lot of stuff other people love: fireworks, trick-or-treaters, Christmas carols, kids, company, and Billy Joel, to name a few.

    (Can someone tell me how to link to a post in a previous thread, pleeeze?)

  31. 31.

    Cain

    @Crusty Dem:
    Yeah, I never got Billy Joel. I don’t hate him or find him more annoying than say, Phil Collins or Creed but, I just never got why everybody thought he was such a big deal.

    That’s how I felt about Queensryche. Fans are more annoying than Rush fans.

    cain

  33. 33.

    DougJ

    I kind of like Billy Joel. He’s not my favorite but his earlier stuff is competent and evocative of specific place and time — Long Island in the 70s and early 80s. I like that. Musically, he’s more interesting than the Boss, although I probably like the Boss marginally better.

  34. 34.

    The Other Steve

    You know what I don’t get!?

    WHAT THE HELL ARE THESE KIDS LISTENING TO THESE DAYS!?

    Back when I was a kid, we had quality music like Jethro Tull and Iron Maiden. But Rap!? What the hell is this shit?

    GET OFF MY LAWN YOU DAMN KIDS!

  35. 35.

    John S.

    Bill Joel, like all musicians who are popular is a major SELL OUT!

    He didn’t SELL OUT – he simply BOUGHT IN!

  36. 36.

    forked tongue

    I pretty much hate Billy Joel that much. I mean, that is godawful shit, his stuff. I don’t begudge Rosenbaum for taking a lot of time to stake out an inexplicably unpopular position, or for hyperbolizing a bit to make a point. But I don’t think Joel is the worst of the worst–there’s an incalculably immense borgy vortex of awfulness out there in pop musicland among which I don’t find individual distinctions all that cost-effective.

  37. 37.

    theturtlemoves

    @Cain: Hey, hey, hey. As a Rush fan, let me say that we can be WAY more annoying than Queensryche fans. Do they actually purchase and read books written by the drummer about riding his motorcycle and avoiding his fans because of the contempt he holds them in? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

  38. 38.

    DougJ

    Yeah, and I simply can’t get hating Billy Joel. I can understand hating the Eagles or Creed or Nickelback, but Billy Joel just isn’t that bad.

    Kind of a funny story, maybe only to me. A couple of my friends in college were the classic mid 80s New York area high-brow indie music types. You know, weird Velvet Underground bootlegs, endless discussions of why Gang Of Four and the Mekons were underrated, went to CBGB all the time, started a band with a name taken at random out of the dictionary, the whole nine. Now, whenever I talk to them it’s about how much they love the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac (they’re also fairly pro-Billy Joel). The thing is, they’re smarter than me, at least about music, so I’m sure they’re right at some level.

  39. 39.

    The Other Steve

    Ok, seriously…

    Went and saw Gran Torino last night. Damn fine movie, damn good. Best movie I’ve seen in a long time. One of Eastwood’s finest.

  40. 40.

    Anoniminous

    How to interact with American — or any other, for that matter — Popular Media:

    At the end of each sentence ask yourself:

    1. Who Cares?
    2. How does the communicator know?

    Fairly soon one realizes you really don’t care and the communicator is blowing it out their ass.

  41. 41.

    Crusty Dem

    @demkat620

    I wouldn’t even put the annoyance of Joel in the same stratosphere as Phil Collins. I was tremendously amused that the South Park guys didn’t care if they didn’t win the Oscar for "Best Song" as long as they didn’t lose to Phil Collins (for that horrible song from Disney’s Tarzan movie). And of course, Collins won (over them, Aimee Mann, and Randy Newman!). And Creed? Come on, this isn’t T-ball, is it?

    @Cain

    Come on, Queensryche’s cover of Pink Floyd’s "Silent Lucidity" was pretty good. Wait, that wasn’t a cover? WTF?

  42. 42.

    passerby

    @Bill:

    Me too Bill.

    Of course this guy is entitled to his opinion but, he suffers from elitism (and perhaps a heapin helpin of self loathing) as evidenced by:

    I decided to make a serious effort to identify the consistent qualities across Joel’s "body of work" (it almost hurts to write that) that make it so meretricious, so fraudulent, so pitifully bad.

    Meretricious? Meretricious? !

    1. [adj] based on pretense; deceptively pleasing; "the gilded and perfumed but inwardly rotten nobility"; "meretricious praise"; "a meretricious argument"

    2. [adj] tastelessly showy; "a flash car"; "a flashy ring"; "garish colors"; "a gaudy costume"; "loud sport shirts"; "a meretricious yet stylish book"; "tawdry ornaments"

    The whole article was one big snit, a meretricious argument.

  47. 47.

    South of I-10

    I don’t know why anyone would waste that much time writing about Billy Joel. I just don’t care. I haven’t heard one of his songs in years.

    @LauraW: I still love parades and Mardi Gras is coming up soon.

  48. 48.

    R-Jud

    Lavocat won the thread, but I’ll bite:

    @Crusty Dem:

    And honestly, how can you critique how much Billy Joel sucks without even mentioning "We Didn’t Start the Fire"?

    I used to like Billy Joel a lot, but when I heard that song the scales fell from my eyes. Of course, I was nine years old at the time. I do still like "Summer, Highland Falls", for the piano line.

  50. 50.

    gex

    @theturtlemoves: What got to me was that I went into the article ready to be convinced. As I kept reading the article, I expected him to try to make some convincing points as to how awful Joel is, but he never did. All I got was some out of proportion sense of rage. Weird. Even when I don’t like a song or musician it’s hard to feel that strongly about it.

  51. 51.

    Dave_No_Longer_Laughing

    I honestly had no idea that Billy Joel was this hated

    Yeah, right. And you’ve never heard the phrase "Death to False Metal" before, either.

  52. 52.

    Cain

    @theturtlemoves:

    @Cain: Hey, hey, hey. As a Rush fan, let me say that we can be WAY more annoying than Queensryche fans. Do they actually purchase and read books written by the drummer about riding his motorcycle and avoiding his fans because of the contempt he holds them in? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

    I was going to, but then decided I wanted to keep my fantasy of who Neal Peart is rather than his actual self! :-) It’s possible that Rush fans are more annoying being one myself, and man I was annoying back in the day. I’m a much more mellow Rush fan now..haha. But Queensryche fans would go on and on about the intelligence of the lyrics and what not.

    Neal’s lyrics are okay, I generally like them. But lately, there just a little too much about the human condition. He should go back to doing stuff like Red Barchetta. Pointless stuff without any message.

    cain

  53. 53.

    gex

    Damn, I can’t write for clarity’s sake at all. I meant that I sensed Rosenbaum’s rage. I personally felt no rage.

    Meanwhile, I did have a bit of fun going through this article Playing the Beatles Backwards in which someone ranks every Beatles song. Obviously a lot to agree with and disagree with in the article, but it was interesting as hell.

  54. 54.

    PanAmerican

    How bad is Joel? Pretty fucking bad:
    We came in spastic
    Like tameless horses
    We left in plastic
    As numbered corpses

    Phil CollinsGenesis? Illegal Alien.

    The king of everyman schlock? Bob Seger:
    Stood there boldly
    Sweatin in the sun
    Felt like a million
    Felt like number one
    The height of summer
    Id never felt that strong
    Like a rock.

    Schwing!
    Pointless stuff without any message.
    Where pointless = Randian bullshit.

  55. 55.

    DougJ

    This is a prime target for Sully’s Poseur Award. I think the tipoff to me was this part:

    Afuckingmen.

    Slate is worthless piece of crap that isn’t worth reading. And this is reason number million why.

  56. 56.

    MikeJ

    My biggest problem with the article was his treatment of "Only the Good Die Young". The song was not an attempt to bash Catholicism, it was an attempt by the narrator to get in the pants of a teenage girl. If you assume a teenage boy narrator (and not the adult Billy Joel) it’s not horrible, just a song about trying to get laid.

  57. 57.

    gex

    @DougJ: Did you ever find Slate to be better? I sometimes still read it, but more because I seem to have this memory of liking it. I haven’t liked it in a good long while, however. Dahlia Lithwick excepted.

  58. 58.

    Pete Guither

    There’s absolutely no reason for such a venomous "review" of an artist who is that well known other than pretentious showing off.

    If you’re reviewing a new release or movie or play and want to prevent people from making the mistake of seeing/listening to it and wasting their time/money, then perhaps a humorously venomous pan is appropriate.

    But at this point, every sentient being has heard Billy Joel’s music and is pretty much capable of deciding whether they hate, love, like, just-like-the-early-stuff, etc. without Rosenbaum’s assistance.

    So what Rosenbaum’s piece means is not that he hates Joel, but that he despises anyone else who doesn’t also hate Joel. He is determined to tell them that they are wrong for not having the same hatred for Billy that he does.

    And that’s just messed up.

  60. 60.

    Incertus

    @gex: As far as I can tell, Lithwick is the only reason to ever go to Slate, and she really deserves a better gig than that, like, oh, the NY Times Op-Ed page.

  61. 61.

    demimondian

    You know what? This whole argument is bullshit.

    I don’t read Shelah for pleasure. I don’t read Don Rubin for fun. I don’t read Roman Jakobson to relax. I read Lackey, or Rowling, or other middlebrow crap. It used to bother me, and then one day I realized something: most people who read at all read middlebrow crap. It’s fun — and the books I read for learning aren’t fun. They’re hard and dense and painful, and they may make me a better man, but they sure as Hell aren’t worth a steady diet.

    So, seriously — who cares about Billy Joel? I enjoy him *because he writes mindless crap*. If I need a few hours of difficult, complicated music, I’ll listen to difficult complicated music — or, even, God forbid, perform it! — and I’ll be enriched for that. But I don’t need to pretend that I don’t enjoy mindless middlebrow shit, and any one who does is a meretricious, duplicitous, poseur.

  62. 62.

    D-Chance.

    Celtics blowing out the Mavs 82-47 early in the third.

    That Jason Kidd thing isn’t going too well, is it, Cuban?

  63. 63.

    cleek

    of all the people in the world to get all worked-up over… he goes after Billy Joel ?

    the guy hasn’t even done anything big since the mid-80s. and so what if he’s still turning out records that die hard fans want to hear ?

    that said, i almost wrote a post yesterday about how i think "London Calling" is the most overrated record ever. then i realized that the only reason to write such a thing would be as trollbait.

  66. 66.

    DougJ

    @gex

    I’m not sure if Slate was ever better. I used to *think* it was better because I only read the newspaper summary (which is excellent) and Dahlia Lithwick and some of the things where they excerpted books (their excerpt of “The Underminer” is one of my favorite things I’ve read online ever). But when I began to read more of it, I was stunned by how shitty it was. And that was quite a while ago. When I go back, it seems maybe a little worse than it was, but it’s been very bad for quite a while at the very least.

  67. 67.

    Bondo

    The problem with his rant is it comes from a place where there is some objective sense of good or bad. Billy Joel, when his music was the theme for the week on American Idol, mentioned that he hoped or considered himself a "competent singer, a competent piano player, a competent songwriter" etc. Billy Joel doesn’t aspire to profound greatness. He tries to write catchy songs. And it seems he’s succeeded admirably given his sales and longevity.

    I should say, if I was buying a box set of the collected works of an artist, I’d go for Billy Joel’s long before Bruce Springstein or Bob Dylan. I don’t care how profound or meaningful their songs are, they aren’t enjoyable on the whole.

  68. 68.

    Bill Zebub

    Oh, okay – he hates Billy Joel so much he went out and ashamedly bought a greatest hits compilation just so he could, um, uh, better understand why he hates him so much, yeah, that’s the ticket. Just like Ted Haggard was only trying to understand how people could be tempted away from God by sodomy in order to have a better chance to save their souls.

  70. 70.

    Glenn Fayard

    Frankly, as someone whose mama drug him off to that execrably pretentious shitfest stage adaptation of Billy Joel’s music, I’ve got more reason than anybody to hate him. And yet, I have trouble remembering to hate the man, at least compared to the current shitfest-of-the-moment, Nickelback.

  71. 71.

    DougJ

    You know, this kind of thing doesn’t bug me so much when it comes from Greil Marcus, even though he’s annoying too. That guy really loves music.

    It seems to me mostly what this Slate guy (who I’ve never heard of before) hates Billy Joel for not being hip. And I think that’s a dumb thing to write a whole article about.

  72. 72.

    Persia

    I was expecting an awesome, kickass hatin’, and got weaksauce. No "We Didn’t Start the Fire"? No takedown of the casual misogyny of "Just the Way You Are"? What is this, amateur night?

    I like The Explainer on Slate, and Dalia Lithwick, and I really enjoyed the Hillary and Rummy deathwatches. But man, do they publish a lot of shit.

  73. 73.

    DougJ

    And yet, I have trouble remembering to hate the man, at least compared to the current shitfest-of-the-moment, Nickelback.

    I’m the one who brought up Nickleback, so I’m not criticizing anyone but myself when I say this, but maybe there needs to be a Godwin-type rule that the first person who mentions Nickleback in a discussion of music loses. The shittiness of Nickleback is out of proportion to anything else and it warps the whole conversation.

  74. 74.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    Christ Jesus, is there no thread on Balloon-juice more tedious than the junior music critic threads?

    Here’s a musical tribute to you fuckers.

  77. 77.

    El Tiburon

    Like most talented musicians unfortunate not to meet the fate of Hendrix or Holly, their later versions of their younger, more radical-selves can never live up, much less surpass, their earlier creative genius.

    Billy Joel is no different. I wouldn’t give a squirt of piss for today’s bloated Elton John; but give me the Benny and the Jets version and I’m there.

    Same goes, mostly, for Sting, Bowie and so on down the line. Rod Stewart anyone?

    Crossing media, Stephen King’s first 8-10 books I would stack up against any author of any genre at anytime. His last 200-400 suck.

    Billy Joel’s early work is iconic and he will always be a legend, despite is sucky later work.

    Slate (Lithwick notwithstanding) is not worth the time nor effort.

  78. 78.

    The Moar You Know

    Do they actually purchase and read books written by the drummer about riding his motorcycle and avoiding his fans because of the contempt he holds them in? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

    @theturtlemoves: Rush fans are a walking case of Stockholm Syndrome. It’s not just Neil – every member of the band hates their fans. If they weren’t so fucking good at what they do I’d never see them again.

    Oh yeah – Peart’s lyrics – worst ever by anybody. Read the schlock that is "Virtuality" if you don’t believe me – that’s got to be the worst lyrics laid to tape by anyone.

  79. 79.

    Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse

    I don’t hate Billy Joel: I just accept or ignore him as I feel like it. This song probably did a lot to mellow me out about him. Yes, it’s actually by current indie rock faves Spoon, but whether or not they intended to sound like Joel, they distill the best of his catchy, middlebrow approach.

    (This is even better Spoon, with the world’s cutest robot and Japan’s Feargal Sharkey).

  80. 80.

    forked tongue

    Not to defend Rosenberg or Slate, but I am being made seriously uncomfortable by reading here how many Balloon Juice readers don’t fucking loathe Billy Fucking Joel.

  81. 81.

    Davis X. Machina

    Billy Joel, when his music was the theme for the week on American Idol, mentioned that he hoped or considered himself a "competent singer, a competent piano player, a competent songwriter" etc. Billy Joel doesn’t aspire to profound greatness. He tries to write catchy songs. And it seems he’s succeeded admirably given his sales and longevity

    .

    Joel’s the lineal descendant of Tin Pan Alley and the Brill Building. Songwriting as a mid-century industrial process.

    He’s not a rocker. It’s a category error to asses him as one. Joel’s not drawing on the blues side of the family tree, except as filtered through what you heard out on the Island on WABC-AM, circa 1965-70. The Band comparison was so inane — it’s like sending your ice cream back to the kitchen because it’s not hot enough.

    If Sondheim hadn’t killed the musical, he’d be writing musicals.

    He is what he is.

  82. 82.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    Phil CollinsGenesis? Illegal Alien.

    Sure, sure, pick the stuff from the jukebox years when Genesis sold out. What about all the great stuff they did before that? Supper’s Ready? Squonk? Eleventh Earl of Mar? Ripples? Yeah, I’ll bet you’ve never heard any of those, have you?

  85. 85.

    gex

    @John Cole: I see so many hits like this where the defensive player has already made his move, then the offensive player goes low, putting their head right in the line of fire. It’s unfortunate, but at least the refs and the league got this one right.

  87. 87.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    Oh yeah – Peart’s lyrics – worst ever by anybody. Read the schlock that is "Virtuality" if you don’t believe me – that’s got to be the worst lyrics laid to tape by anyone.

    Xanadu, Cygnus X-1, Red Barachetta (The Trees: one of my personal favorites)… there were some good ones.

  88. 88.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    I’m the one who brought up Nickleback, so I’m not criticizing anyone but myself when I say this, but maybe there needs to be a Godwin-type rule that the first person who mentions Nickleback in a discussion of music loses. The shittiness of Nickleback is out of proportion to anything else and it warps the whole conversation.

    Well, I wouldn’t put them into the category of some of my favorite music, but, I can listen to them and enjoy their contributions. Call me eclectic. Then again, my ex-husband actually talked me into liking Disturbed (something I vehemently opposed at first, but it grew on me the more he forced me to listen to it).

  90. 90.

    Laura W

    @John Cole: Will I be banned for life if I link to an Ace of Spades post? I am not up on who I am supposed to hate or not hate, and who we are not allowed to drive traffic to, etc. His Michael Moore thing of 1/23 was the funniest thing I’ve read all week. And it goes to the discussion R-Jud and I were having in the previous thread about language, words and cigarettes.

    Feel free to delete it if I am breaking BJ vows and oaths (That’s for HatCat), and for anyone who is strongly opposed to this very notion, don’t click here.

  93. 93.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    Billy Joel wasn’t all bad. Yes, most of his music ended up being bubblegum stuff, but there were some early things (and a couple of later gems that were probably accidents).

    Scenes from an Italian Restaurant was one of my favorite songs in my teens. The Stranger was a a pretty good album. Travelin’ Prayer from The Entertainer was a song I heard every morning in my music class in 6th grade. It wasn’t all crap. Much of it was, I agree.

  99. 99.

    DougJ

    Billy Joel ends every concert by saying “Don’t take any shit from anybody.” I saw him this summer (free tickets from a friend) and I could tell he was doing a second encore because he hadn’t said “don’t take any shit from anybody” yet. Then at the end of second encore he said it, and I knew he was done.

  101. 101.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    Billy Joel ends every concert by saying “Don’t take any shit from anybody.”

    Billy Joel never posted here.

  104. 104.

    christina

    Apparently Cooper had been on the air something like 48 hours straight at that point – I don’t think he was hammered but just very very sleep deprived

    also: hot!!!

  105. 105.

    DougJ

    I honestly wanna know why we’re not debating more on what the hell Anderson Cooper was on when he made that report.

    Probably some gay party drug you’ve never heard of.

  106. 106.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    Billy Joel never posted here.

    Ah, but since he was "The Stranger" he might have and you might never know.

    But, you are correct, since he insists he is "An Innocent Man" (and no, I don’t consider that last one to be one of his better creations, not by a long shot).

  109. 109.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    I honestly wanna know why we’re not debating more on what the hell Anderson Cooper was on when he made that report.

    His producer was probably saying gay things to him in his earpiece.

  110. 110.

    Cain

    @demimondian:

    So, seriously—who cares about Billy Joel? I enjoy him because he writes mindless crap. If I need a few hours of difficult, complicated music, I’ll listen to difficult complicated music—or, even, God forbid, perform it!—and I’ll be enriched for that. But I don’t need to pretend that I don’t enjoy mindless middlebrow shit, and any one who does is a meretricious, duplicitous, poseur.

    That’s what this one guy told me while he was drunk off his ass during a trip to Florida on spring break as all I would listen to was Rush cuz I was a fool. But hey I was only 19. :-)

    Not everything needs to be high brow. I try to remember that when I listen to some of the stuff on the radio.

    cain

  111. 111.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    he was "The Stranger" he might have and you might never known.

    I thought DougJ was The Stranger.

  114. 114.

    Cain

    @The Moar You Know:

    Oh yeah – Peart’s lyrics – worst ever by anybody. Read the schlock that is "Virtuality" if you don’t believe me – that’s got to be the worst lyrics laid to tape by anyone.

    Jeezus.. I totally agree. I read the lyrics and I thought "what. the. fuck." Neal should never write lyrics on modern technology. Sadly, a friend of mine was exposed to Rush and that was the first song he ever listened to by them. Of all the dumb luck. I think I lost that album and I’m not trying hard to find it. He’s hated the band since, couldn’t fiugre out what the big deal was! haha.

    cain

  117. 117.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    Jeezus.. I totally agree. I read the lyrics and I thought "what. the. fuck." Neal should never write lyrics on modern technology. Sadly, a friend of mine was exposed to Rush and that was the first song he ever listened to by them. Of all the dumb luck. I think I lost that album and I’m not trying hard to find it. He’s hated the band since, couldn’t fiugre out what the big deal was! haha.

    I got introduced to A Farewell to Kings (and it’s still my favorite Rush compilation, even today). I lost track of them when they put out Signals.

  121. 121.

    Cain

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero:

    I got introduced to A Farewell to Kings (and it’s still my favorite Rush compilation, even today). I lost track of them when they put out Signals.

    I like their last album. Two fine instrumentals, make for great jogging and driving to work music.

    cain

  122. 122.

    AhabTRuler

    OK, this music thread is too geriatric for even me. Let’s try this: Martina Topely-Bird’s second album is really good, but Manda Rin’s first solo effort is seriously disappointing. Oh, and Rinôçérôse’s latest album was shite, absolute shite.

    And I should definately pimp TV on the Radio for a second time today, but that’s just because I obsess.

  123. 123.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    I like Ace of Base. I only got that one album though.

    You BOUGHT an Ace of Base album? For shame. OMG, did you contribute to the way too late demise of Abba too?

    Most of the music I liked wasn’t found on a radio, sorry. It was found on odd cuts of early albums before the bands really got noticed, when they still had creative license.

  124. 124.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    AFC first. We’re you serious about me sucking up? Because I got a persona to worry about. I might be doing this wrong.

    I’m not sure yet. You aren’t about to make a drunken, teary post that says you hope Troy finally (sniff) gets "his" ring, are you?

  125. 125.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    YOu missin out.. all teh hot clubs are gay clubs. Damn hetros keep chasing them out though.

    Well, my days on the bi scene are bygone, so, I would just be one of those heteros who might chase you out.

  126. 126.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    I would just be one of those heteros who might chase you out.

    I’d just like to say, I’m really glad you joined our team.

  129. 129.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    I’d just like to say, I’m really glad you joined our team.

    I was always on your team, I just liked to sometimes play with the other team. I wasn’t really seriously engaged in that though, it was just for kicks.

  130. 130.

    Krista

    Rush fans are a walking case of Stockholm Syndrome. It’s not just Neil – every member of the band hates their fans.

    Of course Rush hates their fans. Who wouldn’t have contempt for anybody who actually likes Rush?

    Slate is worthless piece of crap that isn’t worth reading. And this is reason number million why.

    It seems to have gotten much worse over the last few years. The only reason I check it out now is for the freaks of nature who write in to "Dear Prudence", and the hilarity that ensues in the comments section.

  134. 134.

    Krista

    Neil Diamond is the Billy Joel of No-Talent Singers.

    You can just take that back right now, mister.

    Sigh, yeah, I know Neil Diamond isn’t what you’d consider to be "good" music. But, his music featured heavily in the soundtrack of my early childhood, so I can’t help but feel happily nostalgic when I hear him.

  135. 135.

    Tom Ames

    An important difference being that Metheny, as a musician criticizing another musician’s work, has a lot more credibility than does a Slate journalist.

  138. 138.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    Sigh, yeah, I know Rush isn’t what you’d consider to be "good" music. But, their music featured heavily in the soundtrack of my early teenhood, so I can’t help but feel happily nostalgic when I hear them.

    nyah!

  139. 139.

    Screamin' Demon

    Anderson’s definitely fucked up on something. Reminds me of Jessica Savitch’s on-air meltdown on October 3, 1983. Love how she converts the word "handgun" into two words.

    Billy Joel sucks. But it’s quite unnecessary to write a 2,000 word essay on the topic. His suckiness is self-evident.

  140. 140.

    Krista

    I WAS going to wish you a happy belated birthday, but nevermind now. ;)

    Too late. No takey-backsies!

    And I kid about the Rush fans. I met quite a few in my adolescence, and they didn’t seem to be the most well-adjusted of fellows. Plus, I’m just not a fan of Rush’s music. So the well was rather poisoned. But I’m sure you’re an absolutely lovely person.

  141. 141.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    I’m trying hard not to take the bait here, but I mean, c’mon! Nice words about Nickelback and Disturbed in the same post? You’re not making it easy!

    I would have never discovered them or accepted them on my own. It was my ex’s influence. Still, they both have a couple of songs I wouldn’t mind listening to now and then.

    Besides, what other band writes lyrics such as "I like your pants around your feet"?

    LMAO!

  142. 142.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    so I can’t help but feel happily nostalgic when I hear him.

    As do I , when I hear the unmistakable note of the rotaries on an old Twin Beech just after takeoff.

    But, that’s just a smoky, oil-dripping machine. You’d think a guy with money for singing lessons could sound better.

    (I was talking about Neil Diamond)

  143. 143.

    Brick Oven Bill

    Don’t you go changing on me DougJ because I would not leave you in times of trouble. I’ll take you just the way you are.

    But no, not me. I read a Billy Joel promo in some upscale magazine where he was playing a new gig at an Indian casino. Billy Joel was explaining how if sex is not loud, that means that it is not being performed correctly. This was a year ago and I still cannot get that image out of my head. Why would he do that to us? This has disturbed me since.

  144. 144.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    And I kid about the Rush fans. I met quite a few in my adolescence, and they didn’t seem to be the most well-adjusted of fellows. Plus, I’m just not a fan of Rush’s music. So the well was rather poisoned. But I’m sure you’re an absolutely lovely person.

    Yeah, well, just to let you know, I tell TZ when your birthday is every year because it’s always ten days after mine.

    ;)

    HB Krista.

  145. 145.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    As do I , when I hear the unmistakable note of the rotaries on an old Twin Beech just after takeoff.

    Funny, that reminds me, there used to be DC-3 at the skydiving drop zone in Zephyrhills, FL where the only music allowed on board was Grateful Dead.

  146. 146.

    Screamin' Demon

    I know Neil Diamond isn’t what you’d consider to be "good" music. But, his music featured heavily in the soundtrack of my early childhood, so I can’t help but feel happily nostalgic when I hear him.

    Yeah, well, I liked KISS when I was a teenager in the late Seventies, but I don’t go around telling people about it.

    (Oh, jeez…I didn’t say that out loud, did I?! :)

    I liked two Rush songs: "Fly By Night" and "I Think I’m Going Bald." Why? Because they were the only songs free of Peart’s verbose, incoherent pomposity. Just straight-ahead rock ‘n’ roll, baby, something of which that band otherwise seemed utterly incapable.

  147. 147.

    Cain

    @Krista:

    And I kid about the Rush fans. I met quite a few in my adolescence, and they didn’t seem to be the most well-adjusted of fellows. Plus, I’m just not a fan of Rush’s music. So the well was rather poisoned. But I’m sure you’re an absolutely lovely person.

    A lot of do eventually graduate from being Rush fans. Rush fans might be mal-adjusted but the band still has their collective heads on straight.

    Besides, it’s the only that’s come decent out of Canada if not I demand an apology for Brian Adams and Celine Dion. (Loreena McKennit gets a pass, she is awesome)

    cain

    (please take the bait.. this thread is getting too slow)

  148. 148.

    jethro

    Billy Joel wrote some good stuff in the 70s and the early 80s. Since then he’s been peddling nostalgia.

    Why anyone would get their rage on about the man’s music in 2009 is a mystery. The author complains that he doesn’t get BJ as much as others seem to … well, join the club, dude!

    Besides, everyone knows that rock music achieved perfection in 1974. It’s a scientific fact.

  149. 149.

    Cain

    @Screamin’ Demon:

    I liked two Rush songs: "Fly By Night" and "I Think I’m Going Bald." Why? Because they were the only songs free of Peart’s verbose, incoherent pomposity. Just straight-ahead rock ‘n’ roll.

    What about ‘Tears’? Geddy wrote that one.

    cain

  151. 151.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    Besides, it’s the only that’s come decent out of Canada

    Anderson Cooper’s copywriter, ladies and gentlemen.

  152. 152.

    The Silent Fiddle of Nero

    What about ‘Tears’? Geddy wrote that one.

    Certainly not one of my favorite Rush songs. Nice ballad for when my boyfriend stood me up at 17, but, not now.

    My take on this: Rush did best when they kept to fantasy themes about medieval and space scenes, and a few humanitarian songs. The supertechnology days were crap, the love songs were Rush without the Rush. They traveled too far out of their best area.

  153. 153.

    RSK

    Slate is far more hated than Billy Joel (and deservedly so). Slate’s knee-jerk contrarianism on every topic is actually evidence Billy Joel is well-respected. Were Billy Joel truly hated, then Slate would instead be publishing a "defense of Billy Joel" piece. Whatever the meme, they publish an "au contraire" article, and they drive me crazy. They’re like the assholes who love to play devil’s advocate regardless of the topic, ruining every conversation in the process.

  154. 154.

    Chris Johnson

    Heh. Billy Joel’s persona and lyrical message are about as sophisticated as Bernie Taupin’s, or the Eagles. Probably the closest comparison is in fact with Elton John’s stuff, and for the same reasons…

    Incredibly retarded, narcissistic songs to the best music in the business.

    That’s how it’s done, people. At least that’s how you get Joe Sixpack, that’s how you get Joe the Plumber and his ilk. The performance and arrangement has to be spot-on, but there’s no such thing as too grandiose or too full of yourself, and you’ve got to be really childish in outlook.

    Billy Joel’s band on, for instance, The Stranger were KILLER. Oh my god, that stuff was deadly. It has that sort of control-freak intensity, and the mix is just phenomenal. I’ve done studies of this stuff, the peak energy those guys put out was astronomically higher than the usual stuff you see in mediocre bands. Insanely tight. Same with the great Elton John- his band was fantastic, on fire. It doesn’t sound that amazing unless you try to do it the way they do it… often the parts aren’t hard, but there’s a Motown-like focus to the groove, the tones are immaculate…

    I guess I’m saying these guys are a steakhouse in a world of haute cuisine… or even a Kobe steakhouse… a sort of thing where you might be looking for a really creative chef with brilliant ideas and you get a hunk of meat, impeccably cooked. You have to be willing to love the result even if it’s creatively bankrupt- so long as it’s truly delicious.

    Billy Joel a great artist? Huh, kinda. But if you think ‘The Stranger’ isn’t brilliantly performed, mixed, arranged… you are wrong. Period. On certain levels it is a brilliant, brilliant work, an impossibly high bar to set for everybody else. It just happens to be in the service of whiny childishness. Oh well!

  159. 159.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    Shit, I can’t even claim that I was drunk or stoned for that! :D

    LOL. I’ve written worse, I can tell you that!

  162. 162.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    158 posts in a few hours to a thread with no useful topic.

    Not bad, guys.

    The blog is pretty healthy. Tip of the hat to John, Doug and Tim.

  164. 164.

    Cain

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero:

    I bet he’s pissed at BJ for the same reason I’m pissed at BJ. Uptown girl.

    Well, that’s one major reason I could consider myself pissed off at him.

    Time to start searching for a bollywood rip off of that song. I can’t imagine a worse torture.

    cain

  165. 165.

    Cain

    Looks like John’s comments on gitmo showed up onthe washington monthly:

    here

    (h/t sully)

    It blows my fucking mind that they let the dangerous terrorists go, but keep the non-dangerous one in detention and torture them. Fubar’d.

    cain

  166. 166.

    Dr. Loveless

    I was expecting an awesome, kickass hatin’, and got weaksauce. No "We Didn’t Start the Fire"?

    On a listserv I belong to, we once got into a very lively debate over the following: "Resolved: Any pop song with the editorial ‘We’ in its title is guaranteed to suck."

    Points in favor:
    "We Didn’t Start the Fire"
    "We Built This City"

    Points against:
    "We Will Rock You"
    "We Hate It When Our Friends Become Successful"

  167. 167.

    gex

    @Krista:

    It seems to have gotten much worse over the last few years.

    Do you sense that coincides with when Microsoft sold it to the Washington Post?

  168. 168.

    robertdsc

    Crossing media, Stephen King’s first 8-10 books I would stack up against any author of any genre at anytime. His last 200-400 suck.

    The Dark Tower VII certainly has enough resonance for me to put it above almost all of his other work. That came out in 2004.

  169. 169.

    gex

    @Dr. Loveless:

    It blows my fucking mind that they let the dangerous terrorists go, but keep the non-dangerous one in detention and torture them. Fubar’d.

    Seems about right for the Bush admin. They’d love nothing more than one of the dangerous ones to actually attack us, just so they can say "See, we should have just thrown away the key after we put them in Gitmo." Or "the Democratic Party is unable to protect America."

    Meanwhile, Obama is stuck trying to fix the problem with the non-dangerous ones, having to hang on to them longer than anyone expects him to because there are no case files on any of these guys.

  170. 170.

    srv

    Reminds me of George Will ranting about Catcher in the Rye and blaming it for the fall of western civilization.

  172. 172.

    Ecks

    I have some form of lyrical aphasia – I barely process lyrics when they are sung, so bands like Nickleback don’t really bug me, as all I here is generic pop strumming and howling. For this reason also Bob Dylan is a dead loss to me, because all I really get is strumming and throaty mumbling. Billy Joel, OTOH has some catchiness to him, and I can dig that.

    My fiance is the opposite… she barely hears the music, just the lyrics. If we were passionately committed to listening to music together all the time we’d have problems :)

  173. 173.

    DougJ

    Time to start searching for a bollywood rip off of that song.

    Right on. And too fucking funny.

  174. 174.

    Ickabod

    I like Billy Joel. A lot. But the funniest part of the article to me was where, after going on a 2000 word screed about how awful Billy Joel is, the author goes on to say that the 2 songs (An Innocent Man and The Longest Time) he actually likes are…..songs that cause even me to understand why someone might not like Billy Joel.

    That’s kind of like ranting about what a horrible president George Bush was, but then saying "in spite of how bad he was, i actually liked what he did in Iraq and with the economy".

  176. 176.

    Ripley

    Anderson Cooper went on the air after:

    a) listening to Billy Joel for 48 hours.
    b) reading Slate for 48 hours.
    c) defending Nickelback, Queensryche, Peart’s lyrics, etc., for
    48 hours.
    d) reading a single Balloon Juice thread for 48 hours.
    e) all of the above.

    The end.

  177. 177.

    AC Delaware County

    Because I’m bored of the Upstate vs. Downstate flamewar in the Gillibrand thread:

    I can take or leave Billy Joel, but he is symptomatic of the neverending throwdown of Jersey vs. Long Island*, and people tend to line up for hating or liking his music depending on which side of that argument has their spiritual/cultural brethren.

    *Jerseyite propaganda summary: Long Islanders are perpetually soft, made that way by their manufactured postwar highway suburbia care of Robert Moses. NJ is the land of hardened industrial types, the prewar landscape shaped by a dozen railroads (the Turnpike is for out-of-staters, that’s why the worst sights in the state get inflicted on it), and as NYC’s gateway to the rest of the country, it is firmly anchored in reality, no matter how harsh.

  178. 178.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    @Dr. Loveless: Here are some more data points:

    We are the champions
    We are the world
    Do you feel like we do
    We’ve got to get it on again
    Love we had stays on my mind
    We’ll sing in the sunshine
    We’re free
    High time we went
    We gotta get you a woman
    For all we know
    United we stand
    We’ve only just begun
    Someday we’ll be together
    We can fly
    How’d we ever get this way?
    We’re a winner
    World we know over and over
    Here we go again
    We ain’t got nothin’ yet
    We can work it out
    We’re gonna make it
    We gotta get out of this place
    If we make it through December
    We may never pass this way again
    Yes we can can
    Why can’t we live together
    We’re an American band
    We’re getting careless with our love
    Way we were
    When we kiss
    When we was fab
    We all sleep alone
    We connect
    As we lay
    We’re ready
    We’ll be together
    Can’t we try
    Didn’t we almost have it all
    I think we’re alone now
    We don’t have to take our clothes off
    And we danced
    We belong
    We don’t need another hero
    We are the young
    We’re not gonna take it
    Are we ourselves
    How many times can we say goodbye
    We two
    We’ve got tonite
    We got the beat
    Up where we belong
    Touch me when we’re dancing
    We’re in this love together
    What are we doin’ in love
    Clones, we’re all
    We were meant to be lovers
    We live for love
    We don’t talk anymore
    We are family
    Can we still be friends
    We’ll never have to say goodbye again
    Sometimes when we touch
    We just disagree
    We’re all alone
    Things we do for love
    Looks like we made it
    We can’t hide it anymore
    I’ve got a feeling we’ll be seeing each other again
    Right back where we started from
    Way we were
    Don’t call us we’ll call you
    Why can’t we be friends

    There’s a handful more but my typing finger is tired.

  179. 179.

    JGabriel

    Just Some Fuckhead, I think you missed the modifier "editorial" to "we". Dr. Loveless was talking about "we" used to identify a group – such as a generation or a people – not in the dual sense, such as "We’ve Got Tonight".

    (Oh, and back to topic, Billy Joel sucks rancid eggs. While a few songs might be marginally defensible, Joel is pretty much the definition of pop music mediocrity. About the best you can say for Joel is that, hey, at least he’s not Barry Manilow or Air Supply.)

    .

  180. 180.

    priscianus jr

    Ecks, I don’t think it’s really lyrical aphasia. If you’re like me, you probably just find the music and the performance style more interesting than the words. Unless the lyrics are reallly great as well as the music, like Stevie Wonder or the Band.

    I’ve never paid much attention to Billy Joel. But of the songs I’ve heard, I think at the very least, "Big Shot," "Honesty," "New York State of Mind," and "A Matter of Trust" are classics. "It’s Still Rock ‘n’ Roll To Me" is also excellent, but could be arranged and performed a lot better than he did it.

  181. 181.

    Jim

    @those raggin on Neil Diamond:

    The guy just turned 68, just finished a world tour selling out arenas in Europe and the USA, released a #1 album of brand new material in the past few months and has written classic songs over the past 40+ years. Why is it in virtually any other line of work would that kind of track record be hailed as great, but in the music business it’s a sin?

    Some seriously pompous asses in this thread.

  183. 183.

    theturtlemoves

    @The Silent Fiddle of Nero: My first Rush album purchased was Power Windows, so I have a really soft spot in my heart lyric-wise for that and everything up to Presto. I actually find them fairly inspiring on Hold Your Fire, etc.

    The older Neil gets, the more his inner curmudgeon becomes his really, really outward curmudgeon and then you get the last album, which consisted almost entirely of diatribes about how crappy the world is and how it is all the fault of religion. We get it Neil, you are agnostic or whatever you call yourself. Congratulations. Honestly, that guy really needed some therapy after his daughter and wife died.

    Billy Joel? I like him. Storm Front is a great album and lots of the older stuff is really catchy, fun pop music.

    Slate? Don’t those guys regularly publish Hitchens’ drunken ramblings. Yeah, that’s a quality publication.

  185. 185.

    Adrienne

    You guys don’t know SHIT about Music.

    You gotta rock out to some Jay-Z, My President is Black. Get up on these lyrics.

    HAHA.

  186. 186.

    Phoenix Woman

    @Crusty Dem:

    Rosenbaum is a douche. Talk about the easiest column to write. "I’m reluctant to pick on Billy Joel", followed by a 2000 words of venom. It’s fine to hate Billy Joel, but to come up with the concept that he has contempt for the subjects of his song, and to attack him for being a "fake common man". Well, duh. Is he going to write songs about how he had to wait 5 minutes for his limo driver since he lost his license for DUI? Is he going to sing about how he doesn’t have any groupies any more so he had to get 2 $5000/night prostitutes last night? I don’t think so.

    Although he should, because that would be awesome.

    And honestly, how can you critique how much Billy Joel sucks without even mentioning "We Didn’t Start the Fire"?

    Billy Joel is like Elton John: He was great early on, but his best stuff is over thirty years in the past. "She’s Got A Way" is an excellent song, and that was on his first album, Cold Spring Harbor. But that’s been about it.

  187. 187.

    Adrienne

    And, Pop Champagne (for the Barack Campaign)

    Since Biden is mentioned on a hip hop club banger, me and my family and friends have decided that he is now an "honorary black man". Becoming a member of the "Honorary black man" club is not bestowed upon just anyone. But, the VP to the first black prez gets in NO PROBLEM. LOL

  188. 188.

    Beej

    Can someone please explain to me why in order to be "great", a singer, or writer, or film maker needs to be "out of the mainstream" or "indie" or somehow other than a commercial success? Why does being a commercial success automatically mean bad? Michaelangelo was a commercial success. So was Rembrandt. Mozart did very well. So I guess they were bad? Huh? Being good means doing whatever it is that you do very, very well. Now maybe I don’t like whatever category you work within. That doesn’t mean you’re bad. It means I don’t like it. I don’t like neo-classic painting. Does that mean Ingres is a bad painter? Nope. Just means I don’t like his paintings. Just because the general public likes an artist’s output, that doesn’t mean the artist does schlock.

  189. 189.

    Conservatively Liberal

    Billy Joel is ok but not anything I would buy or deliberately listen to, just not my kind of music. Nor would I waste my time writing about how I wasted my money on something I don’t like so I could write about it.

    My wife’s brother and his wife are the obnoxiously clean Christian types who love to look down on everyone else, so I kinda spoiled their wedding when the chance presented itself (well after it happened though). They decided to choose the song "More Than Words", a little ditty from the band Extreme, as their song to dance to at the reception. Now I really don’t like her brother (or his wife) and though the feeling is mutual we are polite to each other. My wife can’t stand his wife and she understands why I don’t like her brother because she can barely tolerate him.

    We did not go to his wedding since we already went to his first (this was his second), it was announced two weeks before they tied the knot and we didn’t have time to make travel arrangements (yeah, that’s the ticket!). When they came to visit after they got married, they were talking about the wedding and mentioned the song they chose as ‘their song’ for the dance at the reception. That perked my bored ears right up!

    I went and grabbed the cd jewel of the disc, pulled out the lyrics and asked her brother if he knew what the song was really about. They both looked at me strangely and and I volunteered the information that the song is from Extreme’s second album, Extreme II: Pornograffiti, which is a ‘theme’ album where the songs all follow a similar vein and tell a story, sex, and that the song that they chose is basically a sweet sounding way of saying "if you love me then shut up and put out".

    They both started saying ‘Don’t tell us anymore! You’ll ruin this memory for us!’

    Too late. Damn that was fun!

  190. 190.

    jc

    What’s wrong with Nickelback?

    It’s your standard, "hard" rock, that just supposed to appeal to your average doofus, and have a beat.

    Since I’m several parts average doofus, I LIKE NICKELBACK.

    You don’t?

    Go f*ck yourself!

  191. 191.

    jc

    That’s not just snark by the way (though the f*ck yourself is). I have two Nickelback albums, listen to them all the time when I work out. On my ‘pop hard rock’ playlist.

    So – I want a thread to defend Nickelback – give me a Nickelback defense thread!

    I LIKE Photograph – sure, it’s maudlin, but it WORKS, it SPEAKS to the average guy in you.

    I like Should’ve Listened. Again, an average guy in an average fight with his girl, going "duhhh, what the fuck?"

    Because of You – great for pumping iron.

    Figured You Out – raised good white trash, I HAVE a Figured You Out relationship in my past.

    So really – why the Nickelback hate?

  192. 192.

    JGabriel

    @Beej:

    Why does being a commercial success automatically mean bad?

    Oy. I suspect trolling / strawman argument here, but on the off chance that you’re serious:

    Commercial success does not automatically mean bad. Hardly anyone would argue that Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Elvis Costello, Joni Mitchell, Prince, Talking Heads, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Who, et. al. were not commercial successes, yet even most hipster douchebags will grant that they are all great artists.

    The point being that commercial success and artistic merit are different things. Some artists, like those above, achieve both. Others don’t.

    You see, art is generally meant to challenge people’s view of things – whether it be their view of the social order, or artistic form, or accepted morality, etc, etc.

    People don’t always like to be challenged. Or they don’t like being challenged in specific ways. Whatever. It all means that some artists, producing work of great merit, will never be commercially successful – or at least not in their lifetimes.

    And because many people like the comfortable and the cliched, some artists producing work of little merit will be fantastically successful. Britney Spears and New Kids on the Block are obvious examples, but not all such artists are specifically targetting the teeny bopper market.

    To the minds of many people who follow music with an intensity and interest outside of the normal range, Billy Joel is just such an artist – very successful, but of very little artistic merit.

    It does not mean that all commercial successes are automatically bad. It just means that having both artistic merit and commercial success is a difficult trick to pull off. And in the opinion of a lot of people who care about such things (including me), Joel doesn’t.

    (And btw, Rosenbaum’s article was pretty bad. Just because he doesn’t like Billy Joel doesn’t mean he’s any good at articulating why Joel sucks.)
    .

  194. 194.

    Sondra

    Seems like a lot of words to waste on saying why one doesn’t like Billy Joel. I didn’t know anyone cared that much about pop music, but why not write a column on what he does like; no one would care about that either but it at least he might have to come up with a pop icon that hasn’t been picked to death already.

    Anderson may have been having trouble with his contact lens and therefore having trouble reading what he was supposed to say. Or he may have been high. He usually reads better but he never says anything anyway so what’s the difference?

  195. 195.

    eyelessgame

    I like Billy Joel and Rush. I guess that says everything you need to know about me.

    But I like BJ for two reasons: (1) his music is fun to play on the piano (especially if you forget the sheet music and just work on imitating the live versions, e.g. the ones from "Songs In The Attic"), and (2) he got me laid — in college I sang ‘An Innocent Man’ beneath the window of a girl whom it might well have been written for. Completely unfair of me. But I was in college, and I got laid, so I make no apologies.

    Oh, and BJ may have written 98% dreck, but he also wrote Captain Jack. Which is the song I thought of when I read Ben Stein dissing his son, frankly.

    Rush, I like because their music is damned clever. I don’t care what the members of the band think of me, because I don’t give a damn about them either. I don’t care about their personalities any more than I care about the personality of the cook at my favorite restaurant.

  196. 196.

    Xanthippas

    Man, Rosenbaum is one annoying twit. As a bit of a music snob myself, I can say that Rosenbaum’s column is an exercise in musical snobbery so egregious that Rosenbaum must have written it with most of his nose up his own ass.
    Joel actually has some good tunes, even if plenty of his music (and especially his later work) were annoying and overwrought and overdone. And please explain to me how the fuck you can write a criticism of a song that is based entirely upon the lyrics; that’s like criticizing a painting for the frame its in.

    I wish people like Rosenbaum would just STFU. They give a bad rep to all moderate and reasonable music snobs.

Comments are closed.