I wish we’d hear more of this from actual people — as opposed to tv-trons — about the economy (from yet another WaPo chat):
Richmond, Va.: Just to keep it real, I’m a worker with a wife with cancer. I need to keep my job and my medical or lose everything. That’s the reality of the economy and our system and what needs to be addressed. Tax cuts only aren’t going to do it. It didn’t do it over the past 8 years, why they think it would do it now is beyond me.
Michael A. Fletcher: That is the argument Obama is making.
It really pisses me off that the discussion of the stimulus bill has devolved into some kind of a parlor game about who’s got better PR chops, whether it’s right to mess with Rush Limbaugh, and that Nancy Pelosi was wrong to make Republicans feel bad. I have no illusions that it will change things overnight, but I’ve yet to hear a single convincing argument that massive government spending isn’t our best bet right now.
It’s like Iraq all over again. For a long time, I thought that Iraq was about thousands of Americans dead or wounded, tens or hundreds of thousands Iraqis dead or wounded, 3.5 trillion flushed down the toilet, and absolutely no strategic gain of any kind. What I’ve learned is that it’s really about Fred Hiatt’s sense of justice and Peter Beinart’s self-esteem issues. Who knew?
Dave
Who took Broder off his meds?
Samuel
I personally don’t believe this stimulus bill will work as it stands right now.
However, the problem from what I can tell, is that the Democrats whether it be from the Congress or the White House, have not made their case. It’s just more blame shifted to the Republicans for "obstruction". But the more they do that, the more they shift the focus of the debate. It’s almost as if they have no faith in the plan whatsoever.
Obama’s speech to Democrats last night was a rehashed stump speech–that’s great if you’re running for president, but he’s not. He won…
BNJ
>Tax cuts only aren’t going to do it. It didn’t do it over the past 8 years, why they think it would do it now is beyond me.
Replace "tax cuts" with "deficit spending" and the sentence is equally true.
DougJ
@Dave
I was thinking the same thing. We’ll see if he takes any of my questions today.
gwangung
Not really.
Or, rather, it’s truth, but not the entire truth.
Dave
@BNJ:
In good economic times you may be right. In a time like now, where we’re on the edge of a deflationary spiral, they are totally different.
Rome Again
It doesn’t matter what he said, you’d still come here with this drivel.
Just because we found ourselves in a severely problematic economic reality in October, and he talked about it while campaigning, anything he says now is going to be considered a stump speech to you.
When did George Bush state he was going to send us down the river with trillions of dollars of debt? And you give him a pass, don’t you?
Tool!
wilfred
Maybe. Or maybe people are starting to question the viability, let alone morality, of a system that goes through these crises at regular intervals. In which case they would be getting the real message, rather than an excuse to continue going back to the mead hall, as it were.
The man quoted in the post hints as much:
Any system with that as a reality needs to be scrapped.
Stuck
What it’s about now is placating the existential fear that wingnuts are consumed with about their relevancy. Dems have some ideological stuff in their bill, for sure, but nearly all is germaine to the situation at hand. Not to mention the fact that they WON the dadblamed election. Repubs are on a last stand like mission to salvage their movement and their shitty ideas that have delivered the nation to it’s current condition. They have no incentive in doing something that works, unless it’s their ideas entirely, so they can take the credit for any success, or blame the dems when their ideas fail, because they’re in power. And supporting the dems plan, even with a third tax cuts, will yield them no pol capitol if it works. So the only road to political survival is to oppose oppose oppose anything dems want to do. They are pathetic and if dems don’t realize the game and crush it with promotion of what they think should be done and the willingness to take the responsibility for their ideas, then they are just as pathetic. Obama is now doing his part, but needs congress dems need to step up to the mic and do theirs.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Doug: About 2 years ago, they’d almost always take questions, combo of not a lot of people "chatting" and not being aware of we DFHs tracking every stoopid fucking word they utter. As such, they provided much more grist for the mill…which many of us duly reported on over at Teh Orange.
And while they’ll say that they don’t pay attention to the DFHs, they do. As such, their chats have gotten much more banal. They’re petrified of saying anything.
Of course, sometimes they can’t help themselves as you saw with Kornblut yesterday. It’s a glance into how much of a bubble they work in.
comrade rawshark
@BNJ:
Explain. By just saying that and running away you aren’t being very convincing.
Zifnab
Tax cuts aimed at the richest income brackets aren’t going to be felt by the middle class. Deficit Spending on military hardware isn’t going to invigorate the economy.
There’s a certain idea in politics that X can’t work because it didn’t work, rather than because it was simply implemented piss poorly. There will be encyclopedias written on everything we did wrong in Iraq. Forests have been decimated to produce the news print holding all the bad ways government money has been spent in the last 8 years.
I’m not against Obama’s $500 tax credit – despite it being a "cut" – because it is aimed at people in desperate need of the money. I’m not against Obama’s infrastructure initiatives because – after bridge collapses in Minnesota and ice storms in Kansas and coal slurries in Tennessee – we could use it.
But we see the same bullshit about "earmarks". A $1 million grant to fund cancer research and a $1 million grant to put Ronald Regen’s face on the nickle are treated with exactly the same disdain because they’re both "earmarks". Likewise, an extension of unemployment benefits to the just-fired and a bag of money tossed into the local homeless shelter are treated with the exact same disdain because they’re both "welfare".
The Republican Party has done such a good job of verbally smearing the opposition that people don’t know an effective policy when they hear it.
El Cid
Fixt.
But let me set this straight: This is not new. It was not an accident that no major media wanted to publish the My Lai story until it had long been published by the tiny alternative Dispatch News Service.
The major news producers and pundits (with noble but minority exception) hate reality, hate covering reality, and they care about nothing but their own world of insider connections and their super-rich environs.
None of ’em gave the slightest sh*t about actually debating NAFTA’s likely consequences and precedents, it was all about shutting down those damn weird fringe fair traders and labor luddites.
And so on and so forth.
J
Doug
Maybe it’s time for another blog abbreviation along the lines of IMHO and LOL, viz. VWPI
Very well put indeed!
sarah
DougJ,
I appreciate the hater-ade you’re drinking over recent events (there’s tons to be angry about), but can you find a silver lining and do a happy post today? It’s Friday and we’re going to have the warmest temps in over a 6 weeks here in Chicago. And the Senate looks like it might be finally lumbering to a vote over the now-ravaged stimulus bill. Silver linings.
MaurS
What He said…
DougJ
@J: Thanks!
@comrade scott:
Yeah, those were the good old days. I used to get three or four questions into a typical Broder chat.
CalD
I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, we’re still going to need to try and get some things done in much less time than it could possibly take to completely reform/replace our entire social, political and media cultures. So like it or not, Democrats still need to get better at politics and PR.
Keith
What are they listening to Richmond, VA for? They’ve already got a designated actual person to tell them what average americans think: Joe The Plumber.
wingnuts to iraq
deficit spending on a pointless war doesn’t work. What value does occupying Iraq add? None! What value does giving huge tax cuts to the already wealthy add? None!
What value does fixing schools and roads, weatherizing houses, etc. bring? Plenty.
The amount of Wharggl and stupid by people is amazing.
PK
As an ordinary person with absolutely no background in economics and not even enough information to talk intelligently about the stimulus, I’ve adopted a simple rule of thumb. If the republicans are saying something about the economy (or anything else), it is wrong. If Obama is saying something I will trust it right now because he has probably put thought into it and generally knows what he is talking about. His plan may not work, but what is the alternative-side with the right wingers who have driven us off the cliff in the first place. Never in these 8 yrs have republicans ever said anything that makes sense. Not one rosy prediction that panned out, not one plan which helped ordinary Americans and now when they are out of power suddenly they have all the right answers. The democrats have Paul krugman, republicans invite Joe the plumber to capitol hill to discuss the stimulus.
As I said what choice do we have?
DougJ
That is true. But, in fairness, I sometimes hear Republicans say sensible things about free trade, for example (not that what they’re saying is 100% correct, but that it’s based on sound principles). And I’d be willing to listen to arguments against the stimulus beyond “I’d change this little piece of it”. But I haven’t heard one that makes any sense at all yet.
Stuck
@MaurS:
LOL POTD!
The Populist
However, the problem from what I can tell, is that the Democrats whether it be from the Congress or the White House, have not made their case. It’s just more blame shifted to the Republicans for "obstruction". But the more they do that, the more they shift the focus of the debate. It’s almost as if they have no faith in the plan whatsoever.
It is obstruction when you have no decent counterpoint to run with other than "cut taxes". Sorry Samuel, the Dems have sold this thing but it’s kinda hard to convince an American public that has nothing but idiotic talking heads telling them how dumb this bill is with nothing more than talking points backing THEM up.
So it was okay to blow the surplus like a drunken sailor who just got paid and wants to "get some?" Why is it not acceptable for you to accept that your party is full of obstructionist pigs who can’t do anything constructive? Oh yes, this is the party that thinks any kind of compromise is for sissys and Liberals.
Sell that claptrap all you want but the reality still exists: Do nothing and we risk permanent damage here. Tax cuts do NOT work. The Reagan Revolution is a failure. If we come to accept this, wipe the slate clean and find some common ground, we may just ride this out with minimal long term damage. Sitting around like the GOP propose is bullshit. It’s a stance for people who think doing so will put them back in power.
That kind of thinking, to me, is very Un-American.
DougJ
Parenthetically — good God Broder makes a lot of sense today! I realize it’s mostly a matter of my low expectations, but aside from his love of Susan Collins, it’s pretty sensible stuff.
zzyzx
@DougJ: I just wish they’d finish the argument. If the spending the Democrats are putting forth won’t properly stimulate the economy, that’s fine. Tell us what spending would do that and we’ll compare the two. They just never get there.
Dave
@DougJ:
That’s because there isn’t one. And I am not being sarcastic. At this point, spending is the only way to climb out of this.
Dave
Broder is en fuego!!
Somebody must be filling in for him, right? Because that was a big slap across the GOP’s face.
John PM
@sarah: #15
Rome Again
I’d like to suggest for those fright-wingers that think pumping new juice into the economy is a waste of resources that they stop putting food and liquids into their mouths for the next year and let’s see how long they stay alive.
demimondian
@gwangung: Actually, no, it’s not truth at all. In fact, the *only* kind of spending which will help right now is deficit spending, since it causes inflation later on.
The Populist
I’d like to suggest for those fright-wingers that think pumping new juice into the economy is a waste of resources that they stop putting food and liquids into their mouths for the next year and let’s see how long they stay alive.
LOL, not only that but there are MANY right leaning economists who believe the government MUST spend to keep us from the death spiral that is deflation.
PK
If you have enough background information you would be able to figure out the validity of their arguments. But for a layperson it means nothing. All I hear when I hear republicans is -tax cuts, more tax cuts, no money for SCHIP, for fixing health care, yes to unlimited defense spending, war is going to cost 200 billion (oops, I meant 1 trillion), this war is going to take 6 months (Oh sorry, I meant 8 yrs and counting). I could go on and on and on, but I’m sure you get my point.
How am I supposed to sift through this crap and find the one valid argument? Ultimately, results are what counts, and the results of republican policies are in front of us.
Rick Taylor
A video of Krugman on morning Joe.
I can’t believe these gas bags have the balls to lecture a real economists and pretend they know what they’re talking about.
The Populist
I can’t believe these gas bags have the balls to lecture a real economists and pretend they know what they’re talking about.
I believe it. The media is truly a right wing media and not a left wing one. I swear if I ever hear another clueless buffoon tell me that the media is "left wing" I may have to finally go postal.
Samuel
I never said that was OK. The Republicans are no saints here, I never said they were–they did this to themselves. But to assume that our economic problems are the result of 8 years of allegedly conservative fiscal policies, then you’re mistaken. "Compassionate" conservatism that George Bush espoused and its implications that the government intrusion is accpetable in small doses is just as much of failure as pro-government liberalism.
And I don’t recall the Democrats trying to stop any of George Bush’s spending sprees or Pelosi and Reid screaming that we’re headed towards financial calamity in 2008. They just did what they’re continuing to do now–bitch about tax cuts.
I don’t know what the solution is–I would prefer that the focus be on restoring the financial system which I think is key to this whole thing. Not some neo-Keynesian monstrosity, just because we "have to". For every economist out there saying its a good idea, there’s another saying its not so good.
Republican calls for tax cuts are just as inane as Democrats calling for spending at this point. The difference is that the Democrats won the election and they’re not making a case for it.
But then again, if the Democrats could hold their caucus together, the point would moot. Apparently, not all Senate Democrats are sold on the idea (yes, yes I know—the right wing noise machine–yes…) but supposedly they won the election with this big mandate, no? So have at it…..
El Cid
Look, the way you know that Scarboy & company are more righterer than Paul Krugman is that they can get louder and more douchebaggy. That’s how you know an argument is right in America: the loudest and douchebaggiest voice is always right over those damn egghead ivory tower freaks with their facksnsh*t.
Dave
If you want to read the idiocy of the GOP distilled to its purest form, read Mittens’ little piece over at CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/06/romney.stimulus/index.html
His big plan: permanent tax cuts and defense spending.
You can’t make this kind of stupid up.
John S.
Why not? They take their cues from similar gas bags in congress that have been running around trying to lecture Democrats as if they had a fucking clue what they were talking about.
Jon Stewart nailed it last night by thus far being the ONLY person on the teevee to point out that:
1) Republicans voted 100% against a bill based on their complaints about 2% of the spending.
2) Republicans are full of shit with their fiscally conservative overtures after 8 years of spending like a drunk in Las Vegas (and in Boehner’s case only one year after he asserted we couldn’t put a price tag on freedom in Iraq).
Rome Again
@Samuel:
Oh, I see, Sammy wants to send more free money to the banks who already got a bunch of money in TARP, aren’t lending, and are spending that windfall on bonuses and trips for their employees. How’d that work out Sammy?
How is sending money to banks who already have money they aren’t spending going to create jobs?
srv
@wilfred:
We’re going to spend a $1T here, buy the most toxic stuff later this month with what’s left over from TARP, probably nationalize Citi and BofA, and then come back for another $1T before next year when this stimulus doesn’t work…
and still not be an iota closer to universal health care.
Every mistake now pushes that goal farther and farther out.
Zifnab
That’s right kids. You heard it from the economic expert Samuel – right here, first and foremost. The "compassionate" conservatism of George W Bush – with highlights that include two wars totaling 13 years old, instituted torture in secret prisons, funding of "Bridges to Nowhere" and failed abstinence education, defunding of stem cell research and emergency relief, handouts to pharmaceutical companies with Medicare Plan D, attempts to privatize Social Security to the tune of $2 trillion in additional US debt – is a failure.
Ergo, all infrastructure spending, all medical aid, all education programs, and the existing SS system can’t work. If George Bush can’t do it, IT CAN’T BE DONE!
Zifnab
We just passed SCHIP this week. Suck it.
Rick Taylor
@Rome Again:
Actually it’s not either or, we’re going to have to do that too. One way or the other, we’re going to have to figure out what to do with the insolvent banks; I’m presuming thats coming after the stimulant bill. I’m hoping it doesn’t amount to throwing more money at them and hoping they do what we want, but the little bits I’ve heard about how they’re thinking so far haven’t been encouraging.
John S.
Samuel? As in Samuel J. Wurzelbacher?
That would explain the sheer stupidity and the over-inflated sense of righteous indignation.
Rome Again
@Rick Taylor:
We tried TARP once, receivership should be the only answer now.
IncandenzaH
The economic discussion was interesting, but I found Broder’s answers on the issue of investigating the Bushies for war crimes typically opaque. I also found it very telling that he never answered my follow-ups about where he came down on Richard Nixon’s pardon (at the time) and whether he thought justice was served with Iran-Contra.
.
From the chat:
.
Helena MT: "What it represents is a recognition that when we are figting two wars and struggling with the biggest economic mess in 75 years, other issues are more important." What this represents to me is if you screw up the country really bad, then you get off scot free. Eventually, the media is going to rehabilitate the Bush people who got us in this mess – to some extent, they already have, witness that Cheney is offering advice, Karl Rove is a regular on cable news, and Andy Card is there to offer his fashion crticism. If we can’t prosecute them because of more pressing issues, I just wish we would pour scorn over them. Such as, when talking about John Yoo, always placing "torture advocate" in front of his name.
.
David S. Broder: I’ve long believed that shunning is very effective way of dealing with miscreants; I thought that about Richard Nixon and was dismayed when he was invited to be a commentator on public affairs after his resignation.
Rick Taylor
@Rome Again:
I agree. Put another way, if a private institution were to fork over the kind of money we’re about to fork over to some of these banks, there’d be no question who owned them once it was done. It’s only because of a knee-jerk antipathy to nationalization that there’s even hesitation. If bankers don’t like it, if they think it’s social$m, well then they shouldn’t invest hundreds of billions of dollars in creative financial derivatives they don’t understand that tank when housing prices go down touching off a world-wide economic crises.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@sarah:
Northside? Southside?
Oh, and I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – DougJ is my hero!
Rome Again
@Rick Taylor:
I totally agree. I’d like to see Sammy’s take on this.
The Grand Panjandrum
@sarah: It’s going to be a balmy 35 F here in New Hampshire. Woo hoo!
@Zifnab:
I don’t think you can overstate the importance of this legislation. More working families with no health insurance can breath at bit easier when they know they can take their kids in for regular medical and dental exams and get treatment of ailments before they become chronic or life threatening. As the father of two daughters in first grade I can only imagine what it must be like for families that do not have the means to cover these expenses for their children. How the hell could you even get to sleep at night if one of your kids suddenly gets a fever or starts coughing? Jesus. It would be frightening and all consuming. How the hell could you even concentrate on anything else?
TheHatOnMyCat
I’m a worker in the same boat. The last time I had a bad test result the hospital visit cost my insurance carrier about $150k IIRC.
I can’t afford too many $150k hits to my piggy bank.
And whoever said in here that the big stim packages were going to make healthcare reform too hard …. wrong. Long term economic growth DEPENDS on healthcare reform, and we are going to have to do that too, and fairly soon. And that’s because the Republifucklicans have stonewalled it for 30 years and driven the costs way up. So blame it on them, but in any case, it must and will be done. Count on it.
b-psycho
@Samuel:
Considering the sheer idiocy the finance sector engaged in to get to this point, I doubt the financial system CAN be saved. Eventually, whether we like it or not, it needs to be blown up & rebuilt from scratch.
Rome Again
Oooh, good one honey. ;)
El Cid
I’ve always felt that shunning is a very effective way of dealing with scofflaws and ruffians. It thought that way about Henry Lee Lucas and Jeffrey Dahmer and was dismayed when they were invited to corporate boards and to give speeches for large fees and to appear as media commentators after their professional work as life-enders.
TheHatOnMyCat
Thanks. It’s better than they deserve, though.
How about ConDISServatives?
Rome Again
Only if DISS is capitalized. :)
Dave
@The Grand Panjandrum:
It’s bad enough when it happens and you do have insurance. I’ve had to have my son taken to the hospital twice for that kind of thing by ambulance. If I didn’t have my insurance, it would have cost me over $500 for the ride alone…
It shouldn’t cost anyone in this country $500 or more just to ensure that their child’s health isn’t in danger. It’s morally wrong.
TenguPhule
Obviously you’ve never heard of rectal feeding.
It works on the same principle as tax cuts.
TheHatOnMyCat
Done and done.
Tony J
How about – "If it passes and starts having a positive effect on the economy, President Obama and the Democratic party will get all the credit for it. This will then have an adverse effect on the future job prospects of GOP politicians, and make it harder for the Media to report on politics in America as if it were an exciting sports event between two well-matched and equally well-supported competitors."
Granted, it only makes sense if you’re a GOP politician or a member in good standing of the MSM.
So YMMV.
TheHatOnMyCat
Welp, so much for a chili dog for lunch ……
Rome Again
@TenguPhule:
Trickle down nutrition? Wouldn’t that just go into the toilet?
(sorry, I couldn’t resist).
TenguPhule
It’s a chilly 68 F here.
Mongo
Hmm, pork or my job?
I will take pork any day.
If it saves this whole wacky house of cards we got going on; I am all for it.
JL
According to Greg Sargent at the Plum LIne, food stamps has been eliminated by the moderates. Food Stamps is one of the most if not the most effective stimulus.
The Populist
Republican calls for tax cuts are just as inane as Democrats calling for spending at this point. The difference is that the Democrats won the election and they’re not making a case for it.
Sam, if this were the right they’d be crying to all who’d listen about how they won and how they DESERVE to enact THEIR proposals. The left went along, wrongly I agree, but they did it because we had to deal with war and 9/11. If they question the great leader they would be torn down on right wing media shows.
Face it, I am right and you know it. WE HAVE TO SPEND TO KEEP FROM HITTING THE DEFLATIONARY SPIRAL! If you seriously think that we can apply a conservative approach to this mess, you’d be mistaken. This is where government’s role has never been clearer.
Yes, the dems won the election but you’d never know that from the media and it’s talking heads as well as the GOP members in congress. They act like they still have some mandate. If they were honorable people, they’d back off and accept the fact their mandate was rejected by America.
TenguPhule
You’ll thank me for it later. :P
gypsy howell
What the republicans haven’t figured out — but the American people slowly are– is that tax cuts don’t help you much when you have no income in the first place.
Our HVAC guy, a Life Long Republican, has laid off all of his workers in the last few months, and told us this morning that he’s "this close" to calling up Arlen Specter and screaming at him to get off his duff and pass this stimulus package. "What good are tax cuts gonna do me?"
The guy is clearly reaching a point of desperation. And I don’t blame him. Second LLR I’ve heard that from this week.
People are getting the message.
TheHatOnMyCat
Welp, so much for that chocolate shake for lunch ……
Dang, the imagery around here today is tough …..
Joshua Norton
Bite me. The repigs did their damnedest to squelch dissent by waving the bloody 9/11 shirt and screaming about terrorists and calling everyone a traitor who didn’t go along with their every whim. And that’s what got on TV, so you wouldn’t know if the Dems actually said anything about anything.
TenguPhule
@Rome Again
Trickle down nutrition? Wouldn’t that just go into the toilet?
That’s what buttplugs are for.
-I couldn’t resist either.
TheHatOnMyCat
I’m going on an all hard cheese and jerky diet.
TheHatOnMyCat
Okay, note to self, pick up a new buttplug at Walgreens.
NOW can I go to lunch?
jake 4 that 1
Stalkin’ Malkin’s CounterIntelligence Force is en route now.
TenguPhule
Good choice, there’s no end of jerks in sight and the Goatblower whine is particularly good this year.
wilfred
Yes, it is. But it isn’t a glitch in the system that creates that horrible truth, it’s the system itself.
Politicians serve the interests of capital, not people. It’s up to people themselves to create a politics that serves them. It doesn’t matter what kind of ‘solution’ which politican comes up with, they all perpetuate the same misery and suffering that have always existed.
Real change means radicalism. In this case, a radical re-thinking of how to make the country better, not putting a trillion dollar bandaid on a leprous sore.
The Populist
I have to ask what the right are so afraid of? I think they KNOW this spending bill can help things and I feel they are scared that if it works, they will be toast in the 2010 elections.
Think about this…they can’t let Obama win this one. Their whole philosophy would be exposed as the sham that it is. They are con artists to begin with seeing that a liberal (Clinton) had left the country with a nice sized surplus. Funny, how does a supposed tax and spend liberal do that when their anointed hero Ronnie Reagan couldn’t figure out how to balance the budget?
This is why I am no longer a Republican. It’s ridiculous that these freaks’ main existence is to shill for the elite 1% and win at any cost.
Face
If Obama wants to win this debate, he needs to go on prime-time TV and hold the same "quit-being-fuckstains"-style pressor/speech to Americans. Something big is necessary to counteract all the nefarious and insideous lies the R’s have been peddling for 10 days now. He’d get all sorts of media-fawning "He’s just so dynamic!" coverage necessary to pull this bill back into his pocket.
Zifnab
@Joshua Norton:
I tuned into CNN every day and I didn’t hear anything about impending economic collapse. On the contrary, I got "DOW JONES 16,000!!!!!1!!1!!" on a near daily basis straight into October.
I blame this on the Democrats.
TheHatOnMyCat
Note to self, pick up some Goatblower at Safeway.
Now, I really am off to lunch. Rome, see you soon.
Notorious P.A.T.
That’s stupid.
We’ve had nothing but tax cuts for the past 8 years and look where it’s gotten us. Yes we ran up a huge deficit but we did it by letting rich people not pay taxes while flushing money down the crapper in Iraq. We didn’t get anything for it.
Rome Again
Sorry about that hon.
(can you answer my email please?)
Rome Again
Not yet, check your mail please.
Rick Taylor
Speaking about how Democrats need to communicate a vision, it’s not just this bill. One stimulus bill is not going to fix everything; it’s the first shots in what’s going to be a long campaign. We are going to have to address the banking crises one way or another, and there are going to have to be further spending bills to address long term investment beyond the shovel-ready projects. A quick response to the current crises is necessary, because if we fall to deep into the hole, all the most wonderful long term far sighted planning isn’t going to help us, but it’s only the beginning; in the best case scenario there are going to be years of pain.
The opposition is going to use this to its advantage. They’re going to say, the Democrats don’t know what they’re doing; all they know how to do is spend spend spend. Things are getting worse, it’s not working, we’ve got to draw a line, no more. Or if things do get better, they’ll start screaming about financial responsibility and the looming debt and do the same thing. Krugman talks about how in both the New Deal and the Japanese case, an initial strong response was later undercut by a return to budgetary austerity, sabotaging the recovery.
We need to begin putting a counter-narrative in place now. We need to start educating the American public now, so when the inevitable happens, and the Republicans make arguments we now they’re going to make, it won’t look as though we’re just making things up as we go along. Psychologically, we need to get people to begin to understand now this is no ordinary recession, and combatting it is going to take long term determination and consistent action, that the stimulus bill is just the opening salvo in what’s going to be a long campaign.
TheHatOnMyCat
@Rome Again:
Done, see email.
Joshua Norton
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Last night some Very Important talking hair-do observed that Obama was making a mistake by showing that the other side is "getting to him". I immediately deleted that station from my cable box favorites list so I wouldn’t accidentally tune into it again.
Of course, I expect other talking heads to now take up that talking point. They have nothing to say and can only repeat what someone else has said. Over and over again.
Assholes. They’re all assholes.
Zifnab
@The Populist:
Republicans don’t know shit about what the stimulus will actually do. If they knew it would work, they’d have implemented it themselves years ago and claimed all the credit.
They have too much faith in the market place. They think everything will get better no matter what anybody does. It’s just a matter of time before Rome unburns itself and then its back to Nero being Nero.
They are opposing this bill entirely on partisan grounds. This isn’t about what works or what doesn’t work. This is about ideology. Their ideology dictates that only tax cuts and defense spending are valid government expenditures. The economy will sort itself out and little people don’t really matter.
But they know Dems will get the credit if something gets done and the economy improves, whether or not a link exists. So they’ll obstruct this proposal unless they can turn it into a proposal they can take all the credit for. This is all about winning in 2010 and 2012 for them.
TheHatOnMyCat
Oh, they know shit. Trouble is, that’s all they know.
( sorry, it was teed up, I had to hit it )
Zifnab
@TheHatOnMyCat: That’s par for the course around here.
gbear
Obama’s speech last night was the kind of lecture that a judge gives to someone who’s in court for his 6th drunk driving offense and still doesn’t think he’s doing anything wrong.
Notorious P.A.T.
LOL, it’s the "George Bush is a liberal" argument.
Bush ran up deficits giving breaks to the rich while committing to unsustainable military adventures with no thought to the future, just like Reagan.
ksmiami
I say ram it through with tons of infrastructure, announce to the public that the Repukes are no longer arguing in good faith and can no longer be taken seriously as a partner in solving America’s challenges. Should they choose to be normal, we’ll let them back in the room, but until then… it is time to radically rethink our consumption-debt-bigger is always better society. This should have happened after 911, but Bush told us to go shopping…
On another note, I heartily recommend Cormac McCarthy’s the Road to fellow BJers
Notorious P.A.T.
Don’t you see? We’ve got to reinflate the bubble! ! ! ! !
TenguPhule
Except the loud minority is getting all the attention.
Fraud Guy
Short form personal case:
Had savings; bought new home in 06 to get fresh start with children we were trying to adopt. Old home to be rented, fixed, and sold to pay of other debt.
Higher than expected costs to fix new home, renter backed out two weeks after close, adoption fell apart 3 months later. Took four months to feel like living again, fixed up old home after water leak, put on market March 07. Lost job October 07, ran out of money December, banks refused to defer or lower payments to allow rental, stopped paying mortgage on old home. Foreclosed October 08.
Found job 3 days before unemployment ran out, wife found job, are below par on current home after 20% down, can’t sell. Can’t pay credit cards, equity loan on old home threatening lawsuit, feels since we have a home we are worth pursuing. Behind on property taxes, can’t file for chapter seven, and if cards or equity loan force payments, will be unable to keep home, which will wreck our marriage.
I can’t file to wipe out cards thanks to 2005 bankruptcy law and don’t have the money to file; the current mortgage bank refuses to modify loan (except to increase payments) and claims funds from TARP not there to offset/help modify loans; job is threatened by potential cuts, will not be able to afford COBRA.
Yeah, I want a package–
Extended UE benefits.
Healthcare we could afford.
Mortgage modifications for Bankruptcy, repeal of 2005 BK fiasco.
That would give me hope that there is a way to survive that will keep us off the streets.
Rome Again
@gbear:
Absolutely. That Sammy doesn’t see this shows us his level of ignorance.
Michael D.
Off topic, but Opening Paragraph of the day:
Mike in NC
They ain’t and they won’t, and the Chris Matthews types will stand shoulder to shoulder with them.
Samuel
@Joshua Norton:
I understand the whole bit about the talking heads playing the narrative for any given debate, but please don’t tell me that what you said is the Democratic plan of attack for the next four years—-bitching that their issue du jour wasn’t debated by Hannity or on Morning Joe? Tell me that the whole hope and change thing was a little more than that….
Notorious P.A.T.
Wow Fraud Guy, I hope something turns around for you. You should tell that story to every senator.
Samuel
@Notorious P.A.T.: Um, no. The housing market should find a bottom on its own, as far as I’m concerned. Trying to prop up the market with tax credits and/or mortgage modifications are equally insane.
Mike in NC
@ ksmiami
The movie version ought to be quite interesting with Viggo M in the lead.
ksmiami
Scariest damn book I ever read… Makes "Blindness" look like a teaparty.
I have become convinced that Republican ideology is a threat to our nation and I am a fan of Burke
rock
I’m tired of this junk. It’s gets repeated all the time. Conservatism never fails, it can only be failed. What ideology does that remind me of?
Communism is discredited because everywhere it turned into totalitarianism. But, of course, the Soviet Union wasn’t true communism! It did not fail! It was never really tried!
In the end, it was proved to be unworkable in practice due to human nature. "Conservative economic policies" under the last 3 Republican presidents have suffered the same fate.
Notorious P.A.T.
Oh come on! A barren, environmentally pillaged world where starving people are left to fend desperately for themselves while religious zealouts go around committing violence and mayhem? Like THAT could ever happen.
Isn’t Charlize in the movie?
Notorious P.A.T.
Is that the basis of the Julianne Moore movie of the same name?
Fraud Guy
Notorious P.A.T.
I’ve told everyone from Lou Dobbs and Glenn Beck to Lieberman, Obama, Blagojevich, Durbin, Feinstein, Waxman, and Frank.
The response so far:
"Thank you for notifying us of your concerns. Your opinion is important to us.
….
[and from the politicians]
Please help us in our efforts to represent you. You can contribute….."
Notorious P.A.T.
I just love hearing about how non-conservative Bush is. Apparently bowing to the wealthy and powerful, ignoring scientists, favoring ancient superstition, and using war as your main tool of foreign policy are brand-new, cutting-edge concepts.
Jennifer
Uh, how so? See, Republicans now say that spending of any type other than tax cuts and military = liberal.
How is that different from their priorities over the past 8 years?
I’ll go so far as to agree with you that these guys aren’t fiscal conservatives, but they are what remains of a "conservative" party in this country – that’s what they call themselves and that’s what the people who agree with them call themselves – and it’s not just an issue of what’s left being some "rump" faction – they governed this way when they controlled everything.
And yes, those policies that they supported absolutely did get us to where we are now.
So, if they aren’t truly "conservatives", what are they, other than a bunch of ideologically zealous malcontents determined to hold the country hostage? And given that that’s what they are, why should anyone give a fart in a high wind about what they want to do about anything? They aren’t representing "conservatism" as you’ve said yourself.
Notorious P.A.T.
Well Fraud Guy, what you say really is important to us here. I wish there was something I could do.
Samuel
And given that that’s what they are, why should anyone give a fart in a high wind about what they want to do about anything?
Notorious P.A.T.
Which has worked out very well.
itsbenj
well, that’s what happens when you have a nation governed by men rather than laws. we give ourselves credit for the latter all the time, but we’ve had the former ever since Nixon was pardoned, if not before.
comrade rawshark
I’ll go further and state that there is no conservative party in this country. It’s a myth. It’s a bunch of wealthy jerks (Tories) who don’t agree with the founding principles of this country and a mass of idiots who are programmed to hate liberals. There are only two ideaologies that conform to the founding principles, liberal and libertarian. Anything else is a smokescreen.
jvill
And don’t forget that in Republican Reality World, this man is enjoying the FREEDOM of our non-universal healthcare system.
Let the eagles soar…
Broken
Cost:
Senate stimulus bill: $920 Billion
Iraq war through 2010: $850 Billion
House stimulus bill: $816 Billion
(in constant 2009 $)
Courtesy Menzie Chinn @ Econbrowser
AnneLaurie
Fletcher: All input must be sorted into binary slots. R?/D?
Fvcktard just flunked the Turing test.
North Dallas Thirty
Tax cuts only aren’t going to do it. It didn’t do it over the past 8 years, why they think it would do it now is beyond me.
Very simple.
A cut in the corporate tax rate will help EVERYONE who pays taxes, including your employer.
A cut in the individual tax rate will help EVERYONE who pays taxes, including you.
In contrast, the only way the "stimulus" will help you is if your company happens to be on the magic goodie list, which isn’t likely to happen if your owner is a) white, b) male, c) skilled or d) in any way successful.
Meanwhile, since all of you are so worried about "Fraud Guy", go ahead and have him post his email, then go take a collection up for him. After all, all of you liberals who are so willing to give away other peoples’ money so freely must certainly be willing to spend your own — and remember, any questioning of his story or financial situation means you hate him.