I typed “Sulzberger” into google because I couldn’t remember how to spell it and look what came in at number three on the search, just after the two wiki entries.
It’s probably not my place to tell anti-Semites how to run their sites, but “Jew Watch”? Couldn’t they come up with a catchier name than that?
I wonder if J.D. Hayworth is involved with the site at all.
jibeaux
Heeb, Rue The Day?
I’m not very good at it, either.
JL
So did any one go to the site. For those with extra money Southern Poverty Law Center is an excellent place to donate to.
DougJ
You’re right. I’m going to send them some money this weekend.
John Cole
What is wrong with people?
Bootlegger
Come on people! Didn’t you see all that data on jewiness? Surely with so much data there must be something to this "Domestic & Worldwide Zionist Criminality". Amiright?
SPLC is a great organization, though there newsletter always scares the pee out of me. Its why I bought a gun.
Zifnab
Isn’t that another term for Comedy Central? /ducks
darkness
The effort people will go to to avoid realizing their crappy lives are thie own doing…
DougJ
@John Cole
In all candor, the lack of anti-Semitism here — relative to Europe — is one of the thing I’m most proud of as an American.
That said, this really spooked me.
Balconesfault
Can I look forward to the Ann Coulter defense of their non-bigotry? After all – doesn’t every conservative want to blow up the NY Times building?
flounder
I predict Lois Romano’s chat today will cause your head to explode.
Among the highlights she says columnists can lie and call it "opinion":
Comrade Kevin
I don’t remember where I saw this, but I read someone once say about anti-Semites that they can’t *not* do stuff like that. They can’t control it, it is their nature.
Bootlegger
@DougJ: That’s true enough Doug, but remember they didn’t have black slavery. Also Americans don’t have the 14 centuries of Jewish prosecution. So in that respect the jews are the European n—-r. Of course the Euros are not much better when it comes to racism toward the Browns and Blacks.
DougJ
@flounder
I read it and there was so much stupidity, I couldn’t decide what to excerpt. I think I may just do a round-up of what all these jack asses are saying about the George Will global warming fiasco.
MattF
Yeah, well. No doubt ‘Jew Watch’ has been hangin’ around the intertubes for a long time. Way of the world. On the other hand, the American people elected teh skinny colored guy.
DougJ
Well, as someone of Irish descent, I like to think of the Irish as the blacks of Europe. There’s a scene about that in “The Commitments” that I found pretty persuasive.
Punchy
Jew watch the Daily Show last nite?
jibeaux
@DougJ:
Say it lood, I’m black and I’m prood.
Bootlegger
@DougJ: Certainly true in Great Britain anyway. I’d say the Romas and Albanians have a claim to it as well.
JL
@MattF: Listening to McCain ramble about Obama’s policies the other day, I expected him to call him That One!
Zifnab
Nowadays? Nowadays? Me thinks you don’t read too many Op Eds.
@DougJ:
I always pegged you guys as really pale faced red haired Mexicans.
Paragonpark
In which alternate version of history did Europe not have "black slavery?" From at least Roman times people whom we would describe as "black" were forcibly transported to Europe as slaves.
African slaves were also brought to Europe by imperial powers at least as early as 14th Century, and probably the only reason the Europeans sent more of them to their New World colonies than they brought to European soil was the economic one that there was simply relatively little need for agrarian slave labor what with all the serfs and peasants already available to provide farm labor, but even after the explosion of the New world slave trade in the 16th Century, slaves could be found in Europe proper.
Bootlegger
@JL: He was, under his breath, ended every sentence with it.
Bootlegger
@Paragonpark: A very small percentage and they stopped it long before the US did. Why do you think they are still such a small percentage of the population?
Paragonpark
As I explained, the number was relatively small because of economic/demographic reasons not moral ones, and, you do understand that the countries which established, ran and profited from the slave trade to to the New World were Europeans, don’t you?
JD Rhoades
Wht’s the big deal? We southerners say it all the time.
"Jew watch the game last night?"
JL
@Paragonpark: And once the slaves reached the shores of GA, most of them were treated "right kindly" or so I’ve been told.
I could never figure out what right kindly meant, though.
Blue Raven
@Zifnab:
Allowing for the Irish Catholic with the French-sounding name who follows the Jew with a self-applied Scottish last name. But as the saying goes, the Irish and the Jews have guilt in common. Jews get it from their mothers, the Irish get it from their Mother Church.
KCinDC
Speaking of bigotry, I don’t expect much of the New York Post, but I’m still a little shocked this cartoon made it into print. (Sorry if I missed a discussion in earlier threads.)
Dave
Totally off-topic, but Steele continues to put himself beyond satire.
"Off the hook"? Really? Fo’ shizzle my Stizzle?
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/02/19/rnc-chair-plans-off-the-hook-campaign-tells-critics-to-%E2%80%98stuff-it%E2%80%99/
Zifnab
@Paragonpark:
Didn’t Spain receive some distinction as being the first European country to abolish the practice? I remember it was something of an issue in the Texas fight for independence that the Catholic owned and operated colony of Spain / territory of Mexico wouldn’t allow slavery. And I think the movie Amestad had something to do with it as well. :-p
By the 1860s, slavery was all but gone from the European landscape and the US was considered somewhat backwater and brutish for continuing the practice.
Hell, the Atlantic Slave Trade as we knew it in the history books was actually officially banned in the US in 1808, decades before slavery itself got tossed. :-p
Correct me if my history is askew.
Zifnab
@Dave: In an alternate universe, I really would have liked to see what Steele’s main competitor would have looked like. Maybe a good old fashion Plantation Party? "Dress like a Ghost" Day?
If only we could have two Republican Parties. *sigh*
Dave
@Zifnab:
It depends on how you define the slave trade. England banned the trading and holding of slaves in the early 12th century.
What really pushed it out of Europe was the advent of serfdom.
Balconesfault
@Dave: Totally off-topic, but Steele continues to put himself beyond satire.
Back in the days of minstrel shows, even the black performers had to put on blackface to get on the stage.
The Moar You Know
I’m sure wilfred can help us out. Where is that guy when you need him?
@Dave: Great catch. I’m now convinced that Michael Steele is a Democratic mole working to destroy the GOP from within. Honestly, can you imagine anything the GOP wants less to be involved with than "urban-suburban hip-hop settings"?
Dave
@The Moar You Know:
I just want to see the first video they make. I think it promises to be an all-time classic.
The irony of all this is that Steele has identified the GOP’s weakness correctly, which is their utter lack of traction with the 18-29 set. But he can’t bring himself to admit the problem is what the GOP believes in and not the delivery of the message. It’s hilarious and tragic at the same time…but mostly hilarious.
Joshua Norton
Might work. I understand that some of his best friends are black.
I wonder how he’s going to convince them to join up with the party of the New Confederacy and disenfranchise themselves?
Bootlegger
@Paragonpark: Don’t speak down to me jerkwad. My argument was purely demographic and nothing to do with the relative morality of Europeans vis a vis Americans. Jews were more likely to be discriminated against in Europe because they were the dominant minority and had a long history in Europe. By contrast the African slaves were few in number and the slave trade didn’t last long. The US didn’t have a 14 century tradition of Jewish pogroms but we did have an active slave trade long after Europeans ended it.
And for the record, the Europeans outlawed slavery for moral reasons long before we did.
Dick.
Media Browski
Sadly, Jew Watch had nothing to do with Natalie Portman or Bar Rafaeli.
A shame really.
John S.
@DougJ:
Forgive me if I laugh at your insinuation.
When I was 15, I got jumped and beaten up by 6 guys outside a Checker’s parking lot. Why? Because they noticed the star of David I wore on my necklace.
When I was 17, I had to call the police on a homeless man who came into the ice cream store I worked in because after I gave him a free soda, he proceeded to scream racial slurs at me inside and then outside the store. Why? Because he noticed the star of David I wore on my necklace.
When I was 19, I broke up with the girl I had dated for the longest period of time up to that point because at dinner, her mother began screaming racial slurs at me and telling me about the Zionist conspiracy. Why? Because she noticed the star of David I wore on my necklace.
I stopped wearing my star of David, and I haven’t had an episode like that since. Since I don’t ‘look Jewish’, people don’t target me with their anti-Semitism, although there have been several times that people have said some pretty fucked up things i my presence not realizing I am Jewish.
I realize you qualified your statement with "relative to Europe", but I have spent plenty of time there and don’t find it to be much different. If anything, they are at least more honest about their anti-Semitism. Here, people like to pretend they aren’t anti-Semitic until they think they are in a ‘safe’ environment where they can let their inner asshole fly.
And I grew up in fucking South Florida, Doug. So do me a favor and spare me your pride in America not having a problem with Jews.
Bootlegger
@JL: A Calivnist preacher up in Idaho published a little pamphlet not to long ago titled "Souther Slavery as it Was" in which he argued the biblically moral case for slavery. See, if you treat ’em right, like a father treats his children was the metaphor I believe, then it is moral according the Bible to own slaves. He cherry picked the data from the interviews at the turn of the century with the last surviving slaves, quoting some of them who thought slavery was better than Jim Crow cuz the massa was so nice. It caused quite a stir up there on the Palouse. Of course the preacher denied he was a racist. After all, members of his congregation had adopted some kids from Africa.
Bootlegger
@KCinDC: I was actually more freaked out that the artist and editor both claimed that they didn’t see why someone would find it offensive. Really?
Media Browski
@John S.: I’m going to go the other direction. While I agree that the anti-semitism is violent, in the US, the European version I’ve run into has a casualness about it that’s much more disturbing.
MikeJ
You don’t have to be a racist asshole to be a member of the GOP, but if you *are* a racist asshole, you almost[1] certainly will be a Republican. There is something about the GOP that those assholes recognize as welcoming. As long as they can see it, blacks and other minorities will be able to recognize it too.
[1] yes, weasel word, but nothing is absolute. There are racist assholes here and there in the Democratic party, but they aren’t the core (like they were say 1865-1950).
Bootlegger
@Media Browski: I don’t see why either point needs to be diminished. I’ve seen casualness here too particularly with language. One of my neighbors said in front of my kids "you could probably jew him down a little bit." It became a decent teaching moment on the way home. Then I had a student tell me, with hid kid in his arms, that he missed the quiz because his babysitter had "jewed him." I didn’t let that one pass and mockingly said "I didn’t know Jews were allowed to babysit." His face got real red and he stammered an apology. My point is that I don’t think they even realize the implication of what they’re saying.
DougJ
One of my closest colleagues was a hidden Jewish baby in France in WWII whose father died in the camps. He swears up and down that anyone who thinks America is anywhere near as bad as Europe about anti-Semitism has never spent time in Europe.
Granted, he does live on the Upper West Side.
Zifnab
@John S.: Are you sure its the heritage thing. Maybe people just really, really, really don’t like that necklace?
:-p In all seriousness, though, I know what you mean. People make bad jew jokes around me all the time (although I’ve been spared the rampant jew-phobia) until I say something.
If you’re going to be a minority, its probably you’re best option. Easy to pick on people because they’ve got colored skin or boobs or they don’t have enough money. Not so easy when the only tip off is when you turn down a ham sandwhich or go to "church" on Saturday.
That, and Judaism has become something of a political fetish. Any military action in the Middle East is "for Israel", even if it just ends up dicking over every Jew within a thousand miles. And wingers love to argue anti-Semetism any time you pick a fight with Kristol or Brooks. And then Godwin’s law gets invoked so often its almost embarrassing.
So its easy to think there isn’t a lingering, aggressive anti-Semetism in America. The United States puts up a really convincing front if you don’t scratch below the surface.
Tony J
I really hope that this means GOP frontmen are going to start rapping in all of their interviews. That would make me so very happy.
To be fair, the Roman Empire was pretty much colour-blind when it came to slavery. The overwhelmingly vast majority of Roman slaves were always what we’d call white, the very idea of a colour-based slave system would have struck them as odd. The same holds true for centuries after the fall of Rome. Europeans overwhelmingly enslaved other Europeans, because they were the ‘enemy’ they could reach with the transportation systems of the time.
‘Black-slavery’ as a notion is a much later development, one that grew out of the relative availability of African slave-labour once European ships were crossing the oceans, the climate of the regions where slave-labour was most profitable for European colonists to utilise, and the need of Enlightenment-era white slaveowners for a comfortable justification for maintaining slavery as an institution while also taking about Freedom and the Rights of Man.
You’re right though in your explanation of – why – there was no mass influx of African slaves to work in Europe. There wasn’t any – need – for them.
Punchy
Call me niave, call me ignorant, and I undystand racism w/r/t AAs, but I don’t undystand what peeps gotz against Jews. Never did, prolly never will. Seriously.
Bootlegger
@Punchy: It isn’t rational. They were the "other" for so long in Europe that the discrimination became part of the culture. They used the "they’re not Xtians" and "they killed Jeebus" excuses. The Jewish communities often thrived even through the discrimination which led to all kinds of crazy theories about how much power they had and what they could control. What you see and hear today is simply the residue from that.
J.D. Rhoades
I confess, I had to Google the second name.
Daaaaaaamn.
gex
@John S.: I don’t mean to belittle your experience, because it sucks. I’m a discriminated against minority in several ways myself.
However, I don’t buy the argument that we can’t be better about it unless we’re absolutely perfect on the topic. He wasn’t saying we were perfect.
Cyan
For a while, Jew Watch was the first Google hit in a search on "judaism". That sucker got Google-bombed a few years back.
Media Browski
@Bootlegger: It’s always amazing to hear other’s experiences with anti-semitism. For instance, I’ve never heard the term "jew something" used.
But, I will note that the most subtle anti-semitism I’ve witnessed is on liberal blogs. People naively (I hope) parroting anti-semitic talkign points going back to ROme. Ugh.
But you’re right, which is worse is a useless discussion that only manages to diminish the evil.
Comrade Darkness
I think it’s an entrenched reflex to go with the "I got people to take care of the problem" solution to things rather than the "Maybe I should look into my soul" solution.
They convinced rural whites that giveaways to corporate fat cats were in their best interest. Hey, anything is possible. But, the potential for serious tone-deaf hilarity is something to look forward to.
Ash Can
Oh, yes. Please. Complete with video of Eric Cantor and John Boehner dancing and rapping and wearing sideways baseball caps and baggy britches half-slipping off their keesters. And Mitch McConnell flashing diamond grills. Come on, Michael. I know you can do it.
Bootlegger
@Media Browski: True that.
DougJ
What would you expect from anti-Semites like Ezra Klein and Josh Marshall?
liberal
@JL:
Actually, I read quite a long time ago that they’re not all that great.
Don’t get me wrong—the mission is great. But I’ve heard (again, this info might be quite dated) that they’re more concerned about themselves than about the mission. The criticisms were the common ones that sometimes get thrown at nonprofits.
John S.
@DougJ:
Which is probably the only place in this country that is allegedly MORE pro-Jewish than here in South Florida.
I used to work in a kosher pizzeria (in Boca Raton no less) for a guy who had a numbered tattoo on his forearm. He would agree 100% with your friend, but that opinion was based on his experiences. Just like my opinion is based on mine.
@Zifnab:
Sad, but true. Unlike other minorities, a lot of times people cannot tell if you’re Jewish just from looking at you. That is one of the reasons I stopped wearing the necklace – because to me, it started to feel like I was self-branding myself. Nobody forced me to wear a yellow star – I volunteered.
@gex:
I believe that the perfect is the enemy of the good, so I don’t disagree with you on that point.
However, I still find fault with Doug’s assertion that he is proud of America’s lack of anti-Semitism relative to Europe. I think that’s a nonsensical statement, rife with moral relativism (at least we’re not as bad as THEM!), which glosses over the fact that America is still a pretty fucked up place to live if you’re Jewish.
Incidentally, we were the target of more hate crimes last year than any other group with the exception of African-Americans. And yes, we’re still more hated than homosexuals.
Xanthippas
I’d say "Jew Watch" sticks in the brain, but it’s neither very original nor very clever.
DougJ
I believe the United States is also less homophobic than most of western Europe (England excluded). There is a big problem with violence in general here, though.
I do see your points, but I’m not going to apologize for being happy that the United States is more tolerant than the rest of the western world in many ways. Obviously, that doesn’t excuse the thugs who attacked you.
John S.
No need for an apology, Doug – and I’m not looking for one.
You’re entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I consider it a friendly disagreement over a relatively minute point. If I got a little heated in my tone, it’s just due to it being a sensitive subject for me.
NonyNony
@liberal:
I don’t buy it. The SPLC has a long history of doing really good work and is often mentioned in the same breath as the ACLU and the EFF as a legal aid organization. I know from my own readings that they do good work exposing racist crap to the light of day. I want to see details and who is making the accusations before I’d buy it.
Uh huh. I’m quite leery about most of these sorts of "criticisms". When I hear them and I start to investigate, it usually turns out that said "criticisms" are hit jobs started by groups with a bone to pick with said non-profit and have little to no basis in reality. Occasionally they’re from well-meaning folks who just let the perfect be the enemy of the good (and have no understanding of how much overhead it really takes to run a not-for-profit in this country), but usually you can trace the claims back to someone who the organization has ticked off.
The SPLC has made a lot of enemies. A lot of enemies with deep pockets and connections to both Federal and state and local governments across the country. Any accusations against them that don’t come with a list of actual examples of real problems rather than just vague "problems non-profits have" should probably be dismissed out of hand given the enemies that the SPLC has gunning for them.
Persia
Morris Dees came and spoke at my college once, and the paper got a long, nasty answering machine message from one of the white supremacists the SPLC helped bankrupt. Then he sent the office Dees’ divorce papers. I’d take any criticism of the SPLC with a grain of salt, and ask for a bucket of evidence.
Reminds me of the time someone started a group called ‘fuck-arabs’ on Livejournal. People essentially took it over when the group owner was away and posted tons and tons of pictures of hot people of Arabic descent. It was pretty awesome.
bago
Can I bring up the Protocols of the Elders of Islam ads on the side of the site again? I know that with the collapse of PJM this issue will resolve itself, but I’m just sayin.
Zifnab
If you translate "universal health care" into German, reverse all the letters, and say it backwards very slowly, it sounds like "Death to Israel". If you really supported the Jews, you’d vote for tax cuts.
bago
As I was saying…
Maus
You’re talking about people who believe the Protocols were either literally true, or they were a fiction "based on truth".
Liberal blogs, but I bet you they were the Ron Paul/Alex Jones brand of Libertarian "independent". They have a very few things in common with libs that aren’t present in the GOP, so you’ll find them around occasionally. They’re still terrible, aside from those few positions in common.
ArchPundit
I’ve done some stories on the guy who started Jew Watch. He’s gay. The National Alliance kicked him out for that, but the Council of Conservative Citizens did not. Apparently Frank Weltner, the founder, sold the site a while ago and he’s also lost his weekly radio show a couple years ago.
He’s now just a random nutjob bitter at the world and lonely. Who said there isn’t justice.
Chuck Butcher
Google is a funny thing, when I google ‘balloon juice’ this is what I get, with my pissant site as #3. I know this because my sitemeter gets lots of hits on this. Some of my posts hit Google’s search criteria dead center, or something, since I have steady traffic from long archived articles that may outnumber my current traffic and checking them show they’re in the top couple references. Most of these are guns, but Scott McClelland’s book is a steady winner.
I make no effort to hit Google, it just happens. Try something somewhat obscure like ‘Machiavelli The Prince’, there I am again. I wrote that article because ‘Machiavellian Politics’ was driving hits and didn’t seem to me to be what was being searched for. Apparently I was right – per traffic.
Chuck Butcher
More to the topic of anti-semitism, I’m pretty astonished to to see someone not know the European roots. First up you have the xenophobic ‘the other’ thing going on, different religion, different physical characteristics (not huge – enough) then you have money. Christians and Jews were barred by religion from lending for interest to their fellows which resulted in Jews lending for interest to Christians. Now interest alone generates some irritation, but the great whack comes from the Christian governments borrowing from Jews and getting into difficulties – remember if you lose a war on borrowed money all you’ve got is outgo. Blaming that problem on the Jews became a government out, particularly if they decided to just ditch the loans. Can you say, ‘scapegoat’?
The religion thing is too obvious. Lets try to remember the Church/State relationship particularly in regard to ‘ordained nobility’.
It might be of interest to note that Muslims have/had a similar bar. Further there are interpretations of all 3 that insist that you cannot make a binding contract with those outside your own. There’s a problem in the making.
Mike
@flounder
Romano also says that Burris "can be impeached, which is an extreme solution." This is nonsense. No member of Congress has been impeached since 1797, and it’s an open question whether that was Constitutional or not. You’d expect a "National Political Reporter" to know that.
Bootlegger
@liberal: Hmm, I’ve heard that from conservatives and white nationalists, its all over their literature in the South. It wouldn’t surprise me of Potok and company have some good size egos, you have to possess a large pair of stones to do what they do smack dab in the middle of the Deep South.
Check out their website and see the kinds of things they investigate, the records they keep on hate crimes and groups, and the educational programs they have. If you don’t like it, don’t donate.
John S.
One of my good friends is a financial analyst who specializes in Sharia banking, Chuck. I don’t think this is a very good synopsis of what it’s all about.
You do raise an interesting point about the Jews and their role as money lenders in medieval Europe. What you did not mention is that all too often, monarchs levied hefty tallages on the Jews (particularly in England) whenever they wanted more money – often as high as £60,000 in the 1200s. Think about the enormity of that figure for the time.
I came to learn about them from my own family history. My maternal grandfather’s family were Sephardic Jews in Spain centuries ago that fled to England due to persecution, which they then fled back to Spain due to the outrageous tallages and then had to flee back to England again due to the Inquisition. That’s where they remained until my grandfather left for America when he was a young man.
What a history!
Chuck Butcher
@John S.:
gee John you’d like 1000yrs boiled down in two paragraphs in a bit more detail? To be sure there are a hell of a lot more details of abuse and mechanisms. The tallages are an example of the uses of scapegoats rather than a cause.
Are you trying to tell me that it isn’t a historical fact that muslims were barred from charging muslims interest and that no binding contract could be made with an infidel? The fact that continuing such in modern banking would mean no business possible and so excepted doesn’t make it inaccurate. Check with your pal and see if this isn’t due to exception.
Be under no impression that I give a rat’s patoot about religious laws beyond their influence on history or impact on today’s society. I am entirely non-religious.
John S.
@Chuck:
Um, I didn’t request that you boil down 1000 years of history – you offered it up in your previous post. And since you were clucking about people not knowing their European history, I just thought I’d mention that you left out a fairly important component to your synopsis.
Then, you want to boil down centuries of Sharia banking into a paragraph while ignoring present history. Yes, historically they were barred from transacting with infidels. They are still barred from ‘profiting’ off of people’s debt – but that’s a good thing. Frankly, Sharia banking today is a FAR better system than the bullshit we try to pass off here. It’s more fair and it’s more honest (e.g. they are prohibited from wrapping up lending in phony APRs that mislead consumers about how much they will actually be paying).
I’m sorry that as a non-religious person you’ve formed a reflexive opinion about something because it’s tainted by religion, but that doesn’t make it a BAD thing.
I generally like reading your stuff, Chuck, so I guess I should know better than to try to tell you anything you’re clearly not willing to hear. When you’re right, you’re right – amirite?
paragonpark
bootlegger:
If your original point in the comment, in which you highly inaccurately stated that Europeans did not have black slavery, was intended to be the much different one that bigotry exists everywhere but the primary target of the bigotry varies depending on which group is perceived as the greatest threat to the dominant culture and that a minority has to be sufficiently large to earn "greatest threat" status, I would agree to a large extent.
You would have been well advised though to have omitted the erroneous remark about black slavery and instead made the point based on population.
Of course, even though historically there were more Jews than Africans in Europe, the prevalence and virulence of anti-semitism in Europe is still hard to reconcile with a demographic analysis of Jewish numbers, wealth and power relative to the Christian majorities. Jews never constituted but a tiny fraction of the European population and the arguments of Jewish wealth and power being used to manipulate the course of Europe are more accurately viewed as a symptom of the hatred than a cause of it.
Chuck Butcher
@John S.:
Apologies for bringing that tone to an honest discussion. I do not dispute that Sharia banking may be exactly as you present it, more fair.
I suppose what pushed my button was that without turning into a sociologist/anthropologist I’ve looked at prejudices pretty hard to find drivers. What I believe is that the primary drivers are economic and social standing (ie ego protection) and that things like religion seem to be methodologies or justifiers rather than drivers. I knew when I posted it that it was way too short to cover it meaningfully from the historical perspective and what I’ve come to think.
Again, apologies.