Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Fight them, without becoming them!

I did not have this on my fuck 2025 bingo card.

This isn’t Democrats spending madly. This is government catching up.

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the gop

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

This really is a full service blog.

When we show up, we win.

White supremacy is terrorism.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Shut up, hissy kitty!

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

They punch you in the face and then start crying because their fist hurts.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

The willow is too close to the house.

‘Museums aren’t America’s attic for its racist shit.’

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273Comments

  2. 2.

    zoe kentucky

    Great, now this is going to be stuck in my head all day:

    "Oh, I’m picking out a thermos, for you
    Not an ordinary thermos, for you
    But the extra-best thermos, you can buy
    With vinyl, and stripes, and a cup built right in
    I’m picking out a thermos for you
    And maybe a barometer too
    And what else can I buy, so on me you’ll rely
    A rear-end thermometer too"

    There are a few movies that I’ll watch whenever I come across them on tv– it doesn’t matter if it’s in the middle, the last 5 minutes or the very beginning.

    The Jerk is one of those movies.

  5. 5.

    amorphous

    They keep hot things hot and cold things cold… how do they know the difference!?!?!?!?!?!?

    ¯\(°_o)/¯

  7. 7.

    Napoleon

    This morning NPR had a story as part of its news that Italy has it’s own Shiavo matter going. An Italian court was going to allow a feeding tube removed so their right wing and the Vatican get all worked up and illegally ignored the court order and the parliament went to pass a special law just for her, just to have her die anyways.

  8. 8.

    Comrade Jake

    @Dennis-SGMM:

    That’s nothing. A dealership in Albuquerque is having a 40% off sale on KIAs. That’s right, they’re basically selling cars at half price. A sign of the times.

  9. 9.

    Dennis-SGMM

    @Comrade Jake:
    Damn! It wohn’t be long before we see "Buy a new Chrysler (Ford, Chevy, whatever) and we’ll give you another new Chrysler of equal or lesser value for just one cent!"

  14. 14.

    valdivia

    @Napoleon:

    what i found interesting in this case is that unlike the Schiavo case her family wanted to remove the feeding tube so basically in this case the State was acting on its own (without an interested family member asking for their intervention) and ordering the family and the medical establishment around.

  15. 15.

    valdivia

    I read the Planet Money blog (love that broadcast, non jargony talk about the financial crisis) and they had a Two For One Car Sale picture back in January. So it is already here.

  16. 16.

    Napoleon

    @valdivia:

    Well even in the Shiavo case you had the husband was for it. Just proves that the right isn’t about keeping government out of your life.

  17. 17.

    NickM

    Napoleon, thanks for pointing out that item about Fox. Its too early on a Sunday morning to have the shit scared out of you.

  19. 19.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    @Napoleon: That Greenwald piece is excellent.

    And I’ll say the same thing I said back when the Bubba Militias were all the talk of the town in the Clinton era:

    Bring on your civil war. I’m a pretty good shot.

  20. 20.

    NickM

    I may live in a liberal bubble, but from what I can tell this Santelli/Rush/Brooks Brothers Bolshis crap is not selling too well with most people. They are looking to steady the rowboat, not stand up and start jumping.

  21. 21.

    El Cid

    Go check on Glenn Greenwald’s review of right wing media’s attempt to reconstruct the neo-Confederate militia movement via visions of an onrushing violent revolt against our Constitution-betraying apocalyptic Muslim-Kenyan government which is giving all the workers’ money away to black people and welfare sloths and of course trying to get the U.S. annexed by Mexico.

    Most of the hosts & commentators say, wink wink, that they hope such armed resistance in the flaming remnants of our starving cities won’t be necessary, but they do make sure to keep one hand in their underwear in case they must still discuss such a stimulating topic anyway. Some of them openly say "Of course we don’t want to defuse such tensions, and Glenn Beck says "we’re heading not for a new American Revolution by a French Revolution" as he wiggled his little hand around in his drawers at the thought of beheading Nancy Pelosi.

    They are also hoping that the returning Freikorps, I mean, military soldiers, will side with the American people to kill all our liberal anti-Constitutional leaders.

    I’m almost — almost — tempted to let these neo-Confederates to keep this shit up until the rest of the nation is ready to teach these whining right wing male middle age f*@%ers a lesson.

  27. 27.

    Anton Sirius

    As Greenwald obliquely points out, the militia types proves themselves to be giant pussies when they failed to stand up to the Bush mob for what they claimed to believe in.

    Ain’t much to fear from that crowd. They’d wet themselves if they had to face a unit of blue coated Civil War re-enacters with muskets. Which might explain why Beck feels such kinship with them.

  29. 29.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    @Comrade Jake: Well, it’s not just wingnuttia, it is inciting domestic terrorism, a la Timothy McVeigh.

    These people are terrorists. They don’t pal around with terrorists, they are the terrorists.

    I say, let them get all the attention they deserve. That will bring reckoning down upon them.

  32. 32.

    Napoleon

    @TheHatOnMyCat:

    These people are terrorists. They don’t pal around with terrorists, they are the terrorists.

    One of the most telling things during an election was an interview of Palin and McCain (they were together) by I think Brian Williams where he ask Palin if people who bomb abortion clinics are terrorist, and she refused to do it.

  33. 33.

    zoe kentucky

    The right-wing, government-hating types are mostly full of hot air and bullshit. However, some of them are truly not well, likely have undiagnosed mental health issues/illnesses that have never been diagnosed. Also sometimes it only takes 1 or 2 to do a whole lot of damage, look no further than Timothy McVeigh.

    Overall, I think it’s pretty easy to underestimate that we are at a dangerous, vulernable tipping point at this moment in history. The whole idea that people aren’t pitchfork-wielding outraged is because most people are too scared. Once that fear subsides there will be more anger and outrage, although historically it has been said that Americans are quioxitically forgiving and willing to move on and not so concerned with seeking revenge.

  34. 34.

    Dennis-SGMM

    @Napoleon:
    I guess it never occurred to any of those who clapped their flippers in glee at the treatment of Jose Padilla, the warrantless wiretaps, etc., etc. that those things might be used against them. How do you like "If the president does it, it’s not illegal," now, Wingers? Still comfy with the extra ordinary powers of the Commander-in-Chief in time of war?

  37. 37.

    Laura W

    @Dennis-SGMM:

    With the economy unraveling so quickly, about the only sales pitch I can think of is: "Wouldn’t you rather live in a new car?"

    You have a brilliant Copywriting For The Coming Depression career ahead of you, my friend.

  38. 38.

    valdivia

    @amorphous:

    of course for the wingnuts it makes no difference since the canal was at the time American soil. and the fact that they had to pass a law making it ok for him to be eligible as president also makes no difference. It only matters when it is a democrat.

    But yes. shhhhh. ;-)

  39. 39.

    Brick Oven Bill

    Re: Terrorists

    Stalin declared Trotsky a terrorist. This is a really good story. Everybody liked Trotsky at first, and then kept kicking him out. He was kicked out all over the globe. But I like Trotsky.

    Stalin finally caught up with him in Mexico, where a man had taken Trotsky in, and Trotsky duly nailed the wife. Then he had to move out, and came across Stalin’s man with the, no kidding, ice pick, who implanted the ice pick in Trotsky’s skull.

    This did not kill Trotsky immediately, and Trotsky could have had the ice pick man put to death. As a matter of fact, Trotsky’s guys were in the process of doing just that and Trotsky said:

    “Let him live, this man had a story to tell.”

    Then Trotsky died shortly thereafter. I do not think Trotsky was a terrorist, just a man with a flawed populist worldview, that sounds nice in theory, but ends up poorly in all historical cases.

  40. 40.

    J. Maynard Gelinas

    I’m done with MTP. I watched five minutes of the roundtable just after 11am (was busy earlier) and that was all it took. I nearly threw my shoe at the fucking television. Instead, I turned it off and did a load of laundry.

    Motherfuckers.

    I am really sick of "some people say". Give me a fucking cited utterance or stop calling yourselves "journalists".

  42. 42.

    ThymeZoneThePlumber

    @Brick Oven Bill: Nice job with the prosebot, Bill. Really. You have that thing configured up to a tee.

    However, you are now at the stage of writing shit that just leaves everyone going, What the fuck did he say?

    Can you form a thought and try to include that in your posts?

    Just a suggestion.

    And, are you going to start writing BIRDZILLA again? That really was your best work.

  43. 43.

    J. Maynard Gelinas

    @opium4themasses:

    Yeah, sorry about that. I’m just really pissed off. And every time I turn on television news I get angrier and angrier at the lies spewed forth faster than the mind can intercept and challenge in real time. It’s like the former Soviet writers and editors of Pravda found a new life working as US journalists.

    There wasn’t a damn thing said in those five minutes that could be confirmed as fact. Fucking pathetic.

  44. 44.

    Dennis-SGMM

    Same for "This Week." I heard George "Facts are the hobgoblins of small minds" Will opine that there won’t be a 911-style commission investigating the meltdown because the real villains are "…the 300,000,000 Americans who went on a twenty-five-year spending spree with borrowed money."
    Right. No mention of all of the Republican presidents (And the one Democratic one) who allowed and even encouraged the shift of the American economy to consumerism.

  46. 46.

    Brick Oven Bill

    Sorry ThymeZoneThe Plumber; The point I was trying to make is that calling a political opponent a terrorist, is a very old trick. In the last hundred years here are some examples:

    Leon Trotsky = Terrorist;

    Fundamentalist Muslim = Terrorist;

    Fundamentalist Christian = Terrorist = Timothy McVeigh; and now we behold

    Armed Citizen = Terrorist

    This, in my opinion, is what the Founders were worried about. In any case here is a longer Trotsky, with a corrected verb, and a picture!

  48. 48.

    SnarkIntern

    The point I was trying to make is that calling a political opponent a terrorist, is a very old trick.

    It’s only a trick if the asshole is not a terrorist. People who advocate civil war, who advocate assassinations, who blow up government buildings because they don’t like the government … are terrorists. Therefore it is not a "trick" to call them terrorists. They are terrorists.

    Bombing, shooting, killing, and inciting violence are acts of terrorism. Timothy McVeigh was not a political opponent, he was a mass murderer.

    GTFO out of here, man. Seriously. Your schtick is wearing thin.

  49. 49.

    Dennis-SGMM

    Too good not to share:
    Gov. Sarah Palin to pay back taxes

    Gov. Sarah Palin must pay income taxes on thousands of dollars in expense money she received while living at her Wasilla home, under a new determination by state officials.

    The governor’s office wouldn’t say this week how much she owes in back taxes for meal money, or whether she intends to continue to receive the per diem allowance. As of December, she was still charging the state for meals and incidentals.

    "The amount of taxes owed is a private matter," Sharon Leighow, Palin’s spokeswoman, said in an e-mail. "If the governor collects future per diem, those documents would be a matter of public record."

  50. 50.

    SnarkIntern

    @Dennis-SGMM: Like the other tax stories lately, this reflects badly on Barack Hussein Obama.

    Under his administration, even governors now are cheating on their taxes.

  51. 51.

    NickM

    No mention of all of the Republican presidents (And the one Democratic one) who allowed and even encouraged the shift of the American economy to consumerism

    What were they supposed to do, side with Michael Moore? He’s fat!

  52. 52.

    sgwhiteinfla

    John Cole

    I have found a man after your own heart, at least where it comes to Krugman. Rahm Emmanuel.

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/02/090302fa_fact_lizza?printable=true

    “They have never worked the legislative process,” Emanuel said of critics like the Times columnist Paul Krugman, who argued that Obama’s concessions to Senate Republicans—in particular, the tax cuts, which will do little to stimulate the economy—produced a package that wasn’t large enough to respond to the magnitude of the recession. “How many bills has he passed?”

    Emanuel has heard such complaints before. As a senior aide in the Clinton White House, he successfully fought a Republican Congress to pass the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP), which now provides health care for seven million kids. “I worked children’s health care,” he said. “President Clinton had pediatric care, eye, and dental, inside Medicaid. The Republicans had pediatric care, no eye and dental, outside of Medicaid. The deal Chris Jennings, Bruce Reed, and Rahm Emanuel cut for President Clinton was eye, dental, and pediatric, but the Republican way—outside of Medicaid. At that time, I was eviscerated by the left.” He slammed his fist on the desk, his voice rising. “I had sold out! Today, who are the greatest defenders of kids’ health care? The very people that opposed it when it passed,” Emanuel said. “Back then, you’d have thought I was a whore! How could we do this outside of Medicaid? They warned that it had to be in Medicaid—not that they gave a rat’s ass that the kid had eye or dental care. But, for getting it outside of Medicaid, we got kids’ eye and dental care. O.K.? That was the swap. Now, my view is that Krugman as an economist is not wrong. But in the art of the possible, of the deal, he is wrong. He couldn’t get his legislation.”

    .

    The stimulus bill was essentially held hostage to the whims of Collins, Snowe, and Specter, but if Al Franken, the apparent winner of the disputed Minnesota Senate race, had been seated in Washington, and if Ted Kennedy, who is battling brain cancer, had been regularly available to vote, the White House would have needed only one Republican to pass the measure. “No disrespect to Paul Krugman,” Emanuel went on, “but has he figured out how to seat the Minnesota senator?” (Franken’s victory is the subject of an ongoing court challenge by his opponent, Norm Coleman, which the national Republican Party has been happy to help finance.) “Write a fucking column on how to seat the son of a bitch. I would be fascinated with that column. O.K.?” Emanuel stood up theatrically and gestured toward his seat with open palms. “Anytime they want, they can have it,” he said of those who are critical of his legislative strategies. “I give them my chair.”

  53. 53.

    Keith

    "The amount of taxes owed is a private matter," Sharon Leighow, Palin’s spokeswoman, said in an e-mail. "If the governor collects future per diem, those documents would be a matter of public record."

    Huh??? How is it her past violation of not paying taxes on receiving public funds for a per diem is private, while her future potential violations would be public.

  54. 54.

    SnarkIntern

    “No disrespect to Paul Krugman,” Emanuel went on, “but has he figured out how to seat the Minnesota senator?” (Franken’s victory is the subject of an ongoing court challenge by his opponent, Norm Coleman, which the national Republican Party has been happy to help finance.) “Write a fucking column on how to seat the son of a bitch. I would be fascinated with that column. O.K.?”

    I am seriously in manlove with Rahm Emanuel.

    And Krugman? There are only two words for that subject:

    Fuck him. He couldn’t govern a homeowner’s association, much less a country. I don’t care how many awards he has or how smart he thinks he is.

  55. 55.

    Brick Oven Bill

    You are missing the point of my equation SnarkIntern. My point is that the people who oppose organized Christianity, attempt to label Christians as Timothy McVeigh, through the use of the word ‘terrorist’. Through the word ‘terrorist’ you can then make the jump:

    Christian = Timothy McVeigh

    Timothy McVeigh was a bad person, and the typical churchgoer is a good person, thus the frequent allusions to Timothy McVeigh in political discourse. To paint churchgoers as bad people.

    I predict that in the next few years we will be presented with a new equation:

    Armed Citizen = Terrorist = Some Whacked Out Fringe Group; or, depending on the political climate

    Armed Citizen = Terrorist = Islamberg

    Do not be confused when you see this, this is simply an attempt to consolidate power. Armed Citizens do not equal fringe groups or Islamberg. Armed Citizens are good for the preservation of liberal ideals. Now go make your donation to the NRA.

  57. 57.

    SnarkIntern

    Speaking of manlove, did you all see Shaun Donovan, the new HUD Secretary, on CNN this morning?

    Wow, this guy is smart, and talks smart. His smackdown of the arguments against the mortgage plan was awe-some.

  59. 59.

    valdivia

    @SnarkIntern:
    since I am not a guy I can’t share on the manlove but I am feeling the love for these guys too.

    and– I am wondering how long before some wingnut says something about Roubini wanting the destruction of the US because he is, you know, a fereigner.

  60. 60.

    SnarkIntern

    Through the word ‘terrorist’ you can then make the jump:

    You are cute, Bill. Really, if I were a single woman, I’d be having palpitations.

    But nobody puts words in my mouth. Except me.

    I am not making a "jump." I am calling a spade a spade. McVeigh was a terrorist. The militia anti-government, pro civil war types, are terrorists. People who bomb clinics are terrorists.

    In America, we overthrow the government at the voting booth, not with guns.

  61. 61.

    SnarkIntern

    @Laura W: Yes, my heart is going pitter pat. If we keep putting up these Emanuel and Donovan guys, I may have to switch teams and …. oh wait.

    ( sheepish look )

    Never mind.

  62. 62.

    amorphous

    @Brick Oven Bill: Methinks thou doth forget how thy fellow ‘tards have done the exact thing you are railing against to Muslims. Thou art forstupid.

    Either way, I have never heard anyone refer to McVeigh as a Christian Terrorist or anything of the like. I have never heard anyone make any reference to his religion whatsoever.

    Protip: Stop making shit up and lying.

  64. 64.

    SnarkIntern

    Oh great, CNN goes from the brilliance of HUD Secy Donovan, to the inanity of the thickheaded Mitch McConnell.

    If my tv were cheaper, I’d throw a brick through it, or like that guy I saw on tv the other day, maybe just shoot it.

  65. 65.

    Left Coast Tom

    Huh??? How is it her past violation of not paying taxes on receiving public funds for a per diem is private, while her future potential violations would be public.

    I interpreted it as: Her present and future grifting of the State of Alaska is public. Whether she obeys the law and pays taxes on the proceeds of her grifting is private.

    Unless, of course, the GOP nominates the Palin/Not-Plumber ticket in ’12, in which case she’ll have to release her tax returns. But she doesn’t seem like someone who would think that far ahead.

  66. 66.

    SnarkIntern

    Armed Citizens do not equal fringe groups

    When they are advocating civil uprisings against the government, they are going out on a long limb over a deep canyon.

    Hey, if these people want a different country, I’d be happy to send them to one.

  67. 67.

    amorphous

    @SnarkIntern: Let’s give them South Carolina. The people governor don’t want the stimulus money is already doing uber-right wing demagoguery, plus they’ll have coastline and ports to export their goods, likely hatred and hot air.

  68. 68.

    Darius

    Speaking of manlove, did you all see Shaun Donovan, the new HUD Secretary, on CNN this morning?

    Yeah, Donovan was a really effective surrogate for the housing plan on CNN this morning. He handled John King’s insipid questions very well.

  70. 70.

    headpan

    . . . the real fringe are those that are supporting the stimulus," Sanford said. "It is not at all in keeping with the principles that made this country great, not at all in keeping with economic reality, not in keeping with a stable dollar, and not in keeping with the sentiments of most of this country."

    I can do nothing but laugh at this point- there’s nothing left

  71. 71.

    Thoughtcrime

    @John S.:

    Many impressionable Republican males such as Rich Lowry discovered their special purpose when Sarah Palin winked at them through their TV screens. Whereas the Democrats have concentrated on expanding the tent of their party, the GOP has focused their attention on expanding the tent poles in their pants. Little did we know that Bob Dole was our warning for things to come from the Greedy Obstructionist Pimps in the new millennium. Nasty old Dicks peddling Bush to appeal to the baser instincts of the American male. Viva Viagra and Viva Bush!

  72. 72.

    Brick Oven Bill

    I would argue that under your definition SnarkIntern, the Founding Fathers of this country, which has extended more freedom to more people, than any other country that I can think of in history, were all a bunch of terrorists. And you may have a point.

    I guess my point is that I share the Founder’s skepticism of the nature of man. And I feel that the best way to keep this nature of man in check is wide gun ownership. I believe Texans call this ‘polite society’.

    If you are bored, here is Federalist 46, which lays out Madison’s view on the subject. Palpitations?

  73. 73.

    SnarkIntern

    Every now and then, I feel thankful that I’m not an idiot. Don’t get me wrong, most of the time I yearn for the simple, carefree life of the halfwit. I long to relish the stupid joys of the lowest common denominator, uncomplicated by critical thinking, ulterior motives, ironic distance or simple logic. To drive my daughter straight to Disneyland and delight in the asinine, saccharine femininity represented by its Princess Fantasy Faire. To take in an adorable baby chimp without thinking through the very real possibility that it might grow up and rip someone’s face off one day. To say "It’s all good" and really mean it.

    First paragraph from John’s linked movie review (top post).

    This is some snarky and funny stuff, world class material. BrickHeadedBilious, you should study that article. This is how you write funny, witty shit.

    Read, as they say, the whole thing.

  74. 74.

    SnarkIntern

    the Founding Fathers of this country, which has extended more freedom to more people, than any other country that I can think of in history, were all a bunch of terrorists.

    Yeah, it’s a deep subject Bill. But I am sure that you can figure it all out. Just be patient with yourself.

    But do us a favor … don’t do it out loud, or here.

  75. 75.

    4jkb4ia

    Dayton Coach: "St. Louis is playing as well as any team in the league right now."

    (I missed the game because we went to pay a shiva call)

  76. 76.

    SnarkIntern

    If you are bored, here is Federalist 46

    Got the Federalist, and the Anti-Federalist, papers right here Bill. I don’t need you to provide me with reading lists.

    But thanks.

    Your petition to equip militias with tactical nuclear weapons and Apache helipcopters will be taken under advisement.

    Democracy rests on the consent of the governed. But first it rests on the consent of the majority of the governed.

    That’s where I come in. I’m in the majority.

  78. 78.

    SnarkIntern

    I feel that the best way to keep this nature of man in check is wide gun ownership.

    Really. My friend EJ and I made our own gun from scratch* when we were in the eighth grade. I’m an awfully good shot. Just a natural, really. Tell your peeps to go ahead and start their civil war. We be ready.

    *except for the barrel, which we ordered from a catalog. Do not try to make your own barrel at home.

  79. 79.

    Brick Oven Bill

    Re: "But do us a favor … don’t do it out loud, or here."

    The Founding Fathers of pretty much all countries were terrorists, SnarkIntern. The difference was that ours stepped down from power, and extended more power to the population that had been attempted in all of human history, including the right of expression. So Blah blah blah.

  80. 80.

    kay

    @Darius:

    Yeah, Donovan was a really effective surrogate for the housing plan on CNN this morning. He handled John King’s insipid questions very well.

    It’s the second time I’ve seen him. He is good. I’m ridiculously grateful when I see an effective liberal or Democratic surrogate.
    I loved John King’s face when Donovan said that the WSJ editorial page got the facts of the plan wrong. John King is completely skeptical of that notion. That the WSJ editorial page might have something of an agenda, and leave out a factor of the plan is just unimaginable to John King. The Obama guy is probably lying, right? We’ll NEVER KNOW.
    The alternative to John King presenting this as a "choice" (who to believe? WSJ or Obama guy? ) would be for John King to read the plan and then he could fact-check BOTH the Obama guy and the WSJ, and actually do his job, but that didn’t occur to him, apparently.

  81. 81.

    Brachiator

    @El Cid:

    Go check on Glenn Greenwald’s review of right wing media’s attempt to reconstruct the neo-Confederate militia movement via visions of an onrushing violent revolt against our Constitution-betraying apocalyptic Muslim-Kenyan government which is giving all the workers’ money away to black people and welfare sloths and of course trying to get the U.S. annexed by Mexico.

    This is classic Right Wing misdirection. The Rushbots are trying to get people to ignore simple reality, that Obama is delivering on his promise to deliver middle class tax cuts. So the conservative goonsquad is playing their version of the class warfare card by attempting to depict Obama as a radical socialist who is only interested in undeserving lower class blacks and illegal immigrant Mexicans.

    By the way, this is backfiring bigtime in Southern California where the most popular (and non-ideological) radio talk show hosts are pointing out that Obama has delivered tax cuts while Republicans have gone back on their "no taxes" pledge and threw in with the Democrats in the State legislature to increase taxes on everybody.

    One more thing: those of you using software (or even those going to a CPA) to do your taxes, can verify for yourselves this little remnant of Dubya’s tax policy. A married couple with two college age dependent children whose ONLY income for 2008 is $90,000 in gains from the sale of stock has a tax of ZERO, because of preferred tax treatment on capital gains. On the other hand, the same married couple with net profits of $90,000 from a business run by the taxpayer or spouse would have a tax bill of over $12,000.

  82. 82.

    SnarkIntern

    The Founding Fathers of pretty much all countries were terrorists, SnarkIntern. The difference was that ours stepped down from power, and extended more power to the population that had been attempted in all of human history, including the right of expression. So Blah blah blah.

    Yeah, we had the Freedom Fighter or Terrorist? debate here years ago, IIRC.

    Sorry you missed it.

    See Ox, gored.

  84. 84.

    opium4themasses

    Snark, you probably want to tone down on the self-righteous tirades. Bill actually has a good point here. There is a reason that treason is the only crime outlined in the Constitution.

    Now, if only the same defense were brought up more broadly when Republicans attempt to paint others as traitors, we might put this one to bed once and for all.

    Wow, snarkintern has managed to make me defend Brick Oven Bill.

  85. 85.

    SnarkIntern

    Snark, you probably want to tone down on the self-righteous tirades.

    Sorry, calling McVeigh a terrorist is a self rightous tirade?

    Calling people advocating violence terrorists is a self righteous tirade?

    Fuck you, pal. Fuck you in every orifice. With a sharp, preferably glowing, stick.

  86. 86.

    SnarkIntern

    snarkintern has managed to make me

    I made you do something?

    Please see my previous post, and follow its directive.

  87. 87.

    Napoleon

    A married couple with two college age dependent children whose ONLY income for 2008 is $90,000 in gains from the sale of stock has a tax of ZERO, because of preferred tax treatment on capital gains. On the other hand, the same married couple with net profits of $90,000 from a business run by the taxpayer or spouse would have a tax bill of over $12,000.

    A few years ago when I figured that I owed nothing on investment gains after the Bush tax cuts I re-did my taxes several times I was so convinced that couldn’t possibly be correct. I wished every one in America realized that the the Republicans have shifted 100% of the individual tax burden from the trust baby sitting next to the pool doing nothing to people like the working mom who gets up at 4am to go to work and doesn’t get home until 7pm at night.

  88. 88.

    El Cid

    I feel that the best way to keep this nature of man in check is wide gun ownership.

    What’s the advantage of wide guns? Easier to balance on a bigger belly?

  89. 89.

    valdivia

    I won’t correct BOB on his American history or his obtuse idea of the definition of terrorism. But I will correct him on the history of ‘most other countries’. The founding fathers of Latin America were distinctly not terrorists or freedom fighter of any kind. A lot of them were actually soldiers in the Spanish (ie colonial power) army defending the unseated King Ferdinand VII and they were fighting against the forces of the newly French-installed king Joseph Bonaparte. Independence was a side effect of the European wars in the continent and the founding fathers were all oligarchs and part of the ruling elite trying to figure out how to preserve their power (and challenge, btw, the power of the Church the biggest land owner in the Spanish-ruled hemisphere).

  90. 90.

    SnarkIntern

    Bill actually has a good point here.

    I don’t agree, but whether he does or not, my point is not just better, it trumps his point.

    Calling a spade a spade is the first step toward keeping the argument within the bubble of reality.

    Calling a spade a dark shape that might be mistaken for something else is not. It’s equivocation.

    Pimping a new American civil war is not "political opposition." It’s an incitement to riot.

  93. 93.

    NonyNony

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    But I like Trotsky.

    Ah. Another piece of the puzzle to understanding the mind of Brick Oven Bill. Too bad they’re not numbered, because I’d like to know how close I am to figuring out if he’s a real troll, a parody of a troll, or if he just occasionally forgets to take his lithium in the morning.

  94. 94.

    Ella in NM

    @Comrade Jake:

    A dealership in Albuquerque is having a 40% off sale on KIAs. That’s right, they’re basically selling cars at half price. A sign of the times.

    They’re KIAS, though.

  95. 95.

    opium4themasses

    Snark, who are you arguing against? Because the points you are fighting aren’t the points being brought up.

    No one has argued McVeigh wasn’t a terrorist.

    Bill’s reply looked to be far more about distancing Separatists from gun-enthusiasts. This is a valid argument.

    For example, you may disagree with the NRA but that doesn’t mean the NRA supports or agrees with any attempt to overthrow the government.

  96. 96.

    Phil

    Tell us Phil, if economics is a science and not just a complete fucking load of shit then why is it that we find ourselves in the situation we’re in today? Where were your economist buddies during the last eight years? I mean I don’t have an economics degree (I have a political science degree, but fortunately I knew a lot about computers so I never had to use it and so unlike you was able to become a productive member of society) but I could tell you three years ago that housing prices in the Seattle area were completely insane. Now if I, with my lowly BA in political science could say "Hmmmm, I think that 500k for a 2 bedroom, 2 bath house in Arbor Heights that needs work and has no view shows that the housing market is completely insane" then why is it that none of your fellow economists could do the same and go to the banks and say "Uh guys, this market is really over-valued and besides, the loans you’re making carry a huge amount of risk if there is even a slight downturn in the economy". Could it be that your fellow economists are full of shit and don’t know what they’re talking about? Could it be that a majority of economists are total whores who will say whatever they’re paid to say? Could it be that economics is about as much of a science as, oh, I don’t know, Santeria? Isn’t "voodoo economics" a redundancy?

    Actually, many economists did, on the left and on the right. Peter Schiff predicted ALL of this for instance and he was an advisor to Ron Paul. I say this not as someone who particularly cares about Ron Paul but to point out it was the "crazy Randian" (at least to most of you) who was completely right about EVERYTHING in the lead up to this recession.

    And as I said before, it was clear to pretty much anyone with a modicrum of common sense that housing prices could not continually rapidly outpace inflation indefinitely and that something had to give. So where did the rapid appreciation in prices occur – in the blue states.

    Face it deadbeats, responsible Americans are being asked to bail out largely irresponsible Democrats.

  97. 97.

    Comrade Jake

    Just caught Zakaria’s show on CNN. Man what a breath of fresh air that show is. He actually has an intelligent discussion with people. Too bad it’s such a novelty compared to Meet The Mediots.

  98. 98.

    Mike in NC

    @SnarkIntern: Let’s give them South Carolina. The governor is already doing uber-right wing demagoguery, plus they’ll have coastline and ports to export their goods, likely hatred and hot air.

    It’s true that SC is and will likely remain a reactionary stronghold for years to come. I’m surprised the bombardment of Fort Sumter isn’t celebrated as a state holiday. Pick up any SC newspaper and you’ll read about how unpopular the stimulus package is (despite SC ranking #3 in national unemployment), plus the usual comments from readers about Obama being the AntiChrist and/or a Socialist Mooslim. Charleston’s actually a charming city but the rest of the place is a redneck wasteland.

  99. 99.

    Comrade Jake

    @Phil:

    Face it deadbeats, responsible Americans are being asked to bail out largely irresponsible Democrats.

    You missed your calling as a stand-up comedian.

  100. 100.

    D-Chance.

    That’s nothing. A dealership in Albuquerque is having a 40% off sale on KIAs. That’s right, they’re basically selling cars at half price. A sign of the times.

    Uh, for 2008 models. They may still be "new" by the odometer; but, with 2009s out now, they’re just dumping the leftovers at the customary used pre-owned prices. It’s not that much of a deal, at all…

    but it’s good to know that used car salesmen can still find chumps in this day and age.

  101. 101.

    kay

    @Phil:

    I feel as if I’m bailing out conservative economists. The 34 year old mortgage broker at my local bank knew this was a very, very bad idea. Not you guys.

    Phil Gramm wrote in the Wall Street Journal less than 4 months that it was all in our heads.

    Where IS he, by the way? Does he still think the fundamentals of our economy are strong?

  102. 102.

    D-Chance.

    The right-wing, government-hating types are mostly full of hot air and bullshit. However, some of them are truly not well, likely have undiagnosed mental health issues/illnesses that have never been diagnosed. Also sometimes it only takes 1 or 2 to do a whole lot of damage, look no further than Timothy McVeigh.

    /nods

    Or Theodore Kaczynski. Oh, wait… he was your Liberal terrorist guy…

  103. 103.

    Larime the Gimp

    @Phil:

    Face it deadbeats, responsible Americans are being asked to bail out largely irresponsible Democrats.

    Yeah. Because Orange Fucking County California is where I think of when I think Democrats.

  104. 104.

    Phil

    Comrade Jack, it’s more sad than funny. Frankly, I have no interest in bailing out irresponsible Democrats who couldn’t read their mortgage and sure as hell weren’t sending money to me when they were buying houses they couldn’t afford and re-financing in order to buy their bratty kids shitty crap from China.

    I also have no interest in making the rest of America more like California, which has been run by Democrats for decades now (Ahnold may be a Republican but he’s not anywhere close to being a conservative and he’s beaten down by the Democratic legislature any time he tries to pretend). California is bankrupt and can’t even afford to return tax rebates that it owes to its citizens – that’s considered theft by the way.

    And California is precisely the kind of place liberals want to turn the rest of America into.

  105. 105.

    Ed Marshall

    Yeah, I guess there wasn’t much house flipping going on in the ond apartheid belt 2008 red states. Got us there. Of course, all those states are all welfare cases and can’t help anyone else anyway.

  106. 106.

    Dennis-SGMM

    So where did the rapid appreciation in prices occur – in the blue states.

    Couldn’t be because that’s where the money is, or was, could it? Why those Blue States had enough money to continuously subsidize the Red State deadbeats, didn’t they?
    Here’s another point for you to mull over; at the height of American home ownership 32% of American households are still renting. Part of their taxes are used to subsidize the mortgage loan interest deduction for homeowners. Are you willing to call for the repeal of that deduction? Responsible renters are bailing out homeowners, let’s hear your wrath on that score.
    Finally, I’m sure that should your start to burn you will wave off the Fire Department so that your neighbors aren’t forced to bail you out from irresponsibly allowing your home to catch fire in the first place.

  107. 107.

    kay

    "Look, the economy is bad. It is far below what we Americans have a right to expect, but we are not in a recession," he said. "We may or may not have one in the future, but based on the data we are not in a recession. But that does not mean all this talk does not have a psychological impact."

    Phil Gramm, noted conservative economic expert. He has a PhD.
    Or so I’m told.
    On a side note, why do Americans have a "right to expect" a booming economy, Phil ? Is that like God-given?

  108. 108.

    Dennis-SGMM

    Phil Gramm, noted conservative economic expert. He has a PhD.

    Where I come from, PhD stands for Piled higher and Deeper.

  109. 109.

    Shawn in ShowMe

    Just caught Zakaria’s show on CNN. Man what a breath of fresh air that show is. He actually has an intelligent discussion with people

    Plus he’s one of the few mainstream guys who is actually interested in policy and the maneuvering necessary to make it happen. I heart me some Krugman but I wish he took a greater interest in politics. Sometimes he sounds less informed than I am.

  110. 110.

    D-Chance.

    Deer… opium4…

    Never walk onto a battlefield when both sides are firing.

    That is all.

    /grabs more popcorn

  111. 111.

    Larime the Gimp

    @Phil:

    Funny thing is, if Arnold hadn’t killed the "car tax" (which he just re-instated, basically) and the GOP hadn’t frozen property taxes (Prop 13, I think?) California wouldn’t have a budget problem.

  112. 112.

    kay

    @Ed Marshall:

    It’s malarkey. Here’s the list:

    After Nevada, California and Arizona, the rest of the Top 10 states, in order, were Florida, Michigan, Georgia, Ohio, Colorado, Illinois and Indiana.

  113. 113.

    Brachiator

    @Phil:

    And as I said before, it was clear to pretty much anyone with a modicrum of common sense that housing prices could not continually rapidly outpace inflation indefinitely and that something had to give. So where did the rapid appreciation in prices occur – in the blue states.

    Face it deadbeats, responsible Americans are being asked to bail out largely irresponsible Democrats.

    Florida is a blue state? Seriously, dude, you need to put down the crack pipe.

    Last time I checked, this was a global financial clusterfuck. Let’s see, the government of Iceland collapsed (an ice-blue nation state), and recently the government of Latvia has just collapsed largely because the economic meltdown bit them in the ass. Ireland, Britain, Germany are bailing out their banks left and right. Oddly enough, socialist France so far is weathering the economic storm fairly well.

    Meanwhile, back in the US, George Will on "This Week" and David Gregory on MTP are epically failing as they pretend to be economists, mis-understanding and abusing the concept of "moral hazard," which is totally irrelevant to what is happening now.

    And I love your false opposition of "responsible Americans" and "irresponsible Democrats" (who, presumably are French). Long on ideological rhetoric, short on logic and facts.

  115. 115.

    Ed Marshall

    Well, Obama won most of those, of course he won most of everything. I wasn’t horribly serious.

  117. 117.

    Phil

    And by the way, put me on the fucking record as saying it now so when it becomes a huge problem a couple years down the road, i can say i told you so again.

    The Democrats are bought and paid for by public sector unions who are increasingly more and more insulated from everyday life from the rest of us. Their pensions continue to be unaltered, their salaries continue to rapidly outpace inflation and their benefits are gold plated across the board. Who pays for this? You and me.

    Is this actually sustainable in the long run? Well, an example of Ahnuld pretending to be a conservative was when he wanted to shift the public sector unions from defined pensions to defined contributions (ie 401Ks like everyone else). The Democrats whined and bitched and it got killed.

    Now California has a budget shortfall in the multiple tens of billions, the highest in the nation. So how’s that working out for you? It’s "solution" is raising taxes on the private sector to continue to lavish benefits on the public sector unions.

    My solution: BAN public sector unions. Taxpayer dollars do not belong in union propaganda pamphlets. I believe public sector workers work for me, i don’t work for them. Democrats believe otherwise.

  118. 118.

    GuyFromOhio

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    The point I was trying to make is that calling a political opponent a terrorist, is a very old trick.

    It’s also called Regnery Press. Sales are off a bit recently, as I hear it.

    @amorphous:

    Stop making shit up and lying.

    Imagine if that caught in wingnuttia – the poor mates wouldn’t have anything to say. The silence would be, like, deafening.

  119. 119.

    Phil

    After Nevada, California and Arizona, the rest of the Top 10 states, in order, were Florida, Michigan, Georgia, Ohio, Colorado, Illinois and Indiana.

    Let’s see blue, blue, red, blue, blue, red, blue, blue, blue and blue.

    Arizona went red because the candidate was from there.

    So are you trying my case or yours?

  120. 120.

    Walker

    Here’s another point for you to mull over; at the height of American home ownership 32% of American households are still renting. Part of their taxes are used to subsidize the mortgage loan interest deduction for homeowners. Are you willing to call for the repeal of that deduction? Responsible renters are bailing out homeowners, let’s hear your wrath on that score.

    As much as I (a renter) hate the mortgage deduction, it will never go away. This is a greater third rail than social security. If eliminated, housing prices would have to drop further to adjust for the loss of the deduction.

    Britain got away with it because they eliminated it during a housing bubble (late 80s). Even so, housing dropped 20% (for a while) when they did that.

  121. 121.

    kay

    @Ed Marshall:

    It’s sort of silly to call Florida and Georgia blue states.

    I love how conservatives bail on their governors in this time of crisis. Months ago they were crowing that Florida and California had GOP governors. Now they’re "dead beat states".
    Phil Gramm (again) wrote a long article in the WSJ where he pointed to Florida as a huge economic success story, that proved that those nasty states like Michigan lacked initiative. What the heck happened? Floridians went from GOP success story to welfare queens in a matter of months? What changed? Thrown under the bus!

  123. 123.

    Ed Marshall

    I really didn’t want a 401k, I’ve been toying with the idea of giving up my cushy ass, white collar job and going back to the laborer’s union just because I’d feel one hell of a lot safer with my old pension program than the worthless pile of shit I’ve got right now.

    The shit you find to get wound up about.

  125. 125.

    Larime the Gimp

    @Phil:

    The election was 4 months ago, asshat. The housing crisis started WAY before that, and most of those states WERE red, then.

  126. 126.

    Phil

    Kay, Georgia’s still a red state, actually very red. So you got me there I guess – woopity doo. So 2 of the top 10 foreclosure capitals are red states and one only went red because the candidate was from there. So let’s call it a wash.

    1 out of 9 of the deadbeat states are red states – 11%. The other 88-89 went blue. No wonder Baracky is so eager to bail them out, they’re his base.

  127. 127.

    ricky

    Just so I don’t have to read all the many fine comments, has anybody pointed out to Brick Oven Bill that perceptive people actually called Leon a trotskyite instead of a terrorist?

  128. 128.

    Conservatively Liberal

    I see that our resident spoof, BOB, is hard at work today digging for gold and only dropping his usual brown nuggets all over. You put your CopperTone (with Beta-Blocker!) on today BOB? Gotta watch out for those nasty betas! Nice to see Phil dropping in for some of his usual inane commentary that he delivers with his hand in his pants and the sound of fwop fwop fwop fwop fwop in the background. Attanut ran off because his manhood was in doubt, Phil Gramm thinks the problem in our minds (the economy) is getting worse because we keep talking about it (thus it must be our fault!) and Glen Beck wants to start another civil war in our country.

    I am glad to see that our crazies are in full throated song this fine winter day.

  129. 129.

    gbear

    Put me on the fucking record as saying it now so when it becomes a huge problem a couple threads down the road, i can say i told you so again:

    Phil is a fucking blowhard and a killer of comment threads.

  130. 130.

    Phil

    Ed Marshall, the point is the public pension funds of the public sector unions are unfunded – it’s funny money. And the shit is going to hit the fan real soon. With liberals all over Washington, it’s not going to be reformed – it will probably get worse.

    We’re pretty much fucked because of votes you recently made.

  131. 131.

    kay

    @Larime the Gimp:

    I’m not a PhD in economics, but the governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels, is a conservative, and Indiana is a red state.

    I’m sure they’re surprised to learn they’re now in the dead beat column.

    Daniels was Bush’s OMB director. Bush fired him because he released real numbers on what Iraq would cost.

  132. 132.

    Ed Marshall

    You do know that giving up Colorado, Arizona, Florida, Indiana, and Ohio as "Blue States", means the "Red States will get blown out of the water in every election forever, right?

    I wish I was that confident, I think demographics is on my side, but damn, you may as well sit down, son. You guys are through if you are right.

  133. 133.

    Larime the Gimp

    @Phil:

    Yeah! God damn you, Ed Marshall! Why did you go and fucking vote?! Now you’ll kill the huge surplus the GOP left us!

  134. 134.

    Larime the Gimp

    Hey… this is kind of fun!

    Being a wignut means getting to yell at the damn kids to get off my lawn all day.

    Sweet!

  135. 135.

    kay

    @Phil:

    Phil, the thing to do when you are wrong is to admit it. You ARE a conservative economist!

    I can tell!

    I live in a rural county in Ohio. It is as red as crimson. Our foreclosure rate is through the roof. Not because they took out loans they could not afford, but because they are unemployed. 11.2 %, Phil. Our local family court magistrate can’t proceed with docketed divorces because he can’t liquidate the property, and split it. He can’t apportion debt, or equity. It’s frozen.

  137. 137.

    Comrade Stuck

    @Phil:

    Face it deadbeats, responsible Americans are being asked to bail out largely irresponsible Democrats.

    Idiot. Of the approximate 3.5 million people who have lost their jobs the past 6 months or so, how many do you think are repubs. A rough guess would be about half.

    And most economists will tell you that the bulk of sub prime mortgages to people who can’t afford them have already been foreclosed, or are beyond the limit of neg equity to get helped.

    So it is safe to assume that when the housing/mortgage program goes into effect, many if not most of those assisted will be wingnuts who have simply lost their job.

    And even if this isn’t correct, your assumption that bad subprime mortgages are dems should be verified somewhere other than wingnut bubbleheads

  138. 138.

    Phil

    Face it, we’re pretty much led by people who think tax hikes on the evil rich (Obama’s admitted he’s going to let them expire next year) is going to produce an infinite supply of manna from heaven and balance our budget

    I suppose this is what happens when America votes for a guy with ZERO executive experience and whose closest thing to resembling executive experience was community organizing (you can’t make this shit up!)

    Of course, we told you then that this was a dumb idea, particularly entering a painful recession. America chose. It chose wrong. Baracky’s approval ratings are starting to fall (down 10-12 since the inauguration) and they’ll be cratering in due time.

    (PS Don’t take that as an endorsement for McCain. It’s not in the slightest)

  139. 139.

    Ed Marshall

    We might fuck up the economy? Is that what you are saying? The magical public sector workers, that get your little black heart burning could do something like level every last investment bank in the country?

    I heard it here first.

  140. 140.

    Larime the Gimp

    Hey, Phil?

    When his ratings reach Bush, Cheney, Boehner or McConnell numbers?

    We can have this chat.

  141. 141.

    amorphous

    @Phil:

    Let’s see blue, blue, red, blue, blue, red, blue, blue, blue and blue.

    You are completely effing up causation v. correlation here. Ever think for a minute the cause was shitty Republican policies and the result was those states going in the tank and realizing their mistakes? Clearly not.

    Probably not. I’ll be skipping your blithering stupidity from here on out.

  142. 142.

    kay

    @Phil:

    Of course, we told you then that this was a dumb idea, particularly entering a painful recession. America chose. It chose wrong. Baracky’s approval ratings are starting to fall (down 10-12 since the inauguration) and they’ll be cratering in due time.

    (PS Don’t take that as an endorsement for McCain. It’s not in the slightest)

    That’s helpful. Electing Obama was a dumb idea, but the alternative was also terrible. Win/win for Phil! He’s always right.
    That’s why we turn to conservative academics. For their practical, problem-solving abilities.

  143. 143.

    Comrade Stuck

    Of course, we told you then that this was a dumb idea, particularly entering a painful recession. America chose. It chose wrong. Baracky’s approval ratings are starting to fall (down 10-12 since the inauguration) and they’ll be cratering in due time.

    your a goddamned liar Phil. Nearly every poll shows his ratings stable around the mid 60’s. lying wingnut.

  144. 144.

    Phil

    Ed, with the drop of the stock market, the pension funds are even more under-funded that they were before, and they were on shaky ground to begin with.

    Feel free to quote me when the first public pension fund defaults in a couple year’s time. It wasn’t hard to see it coming. Neither was this housing debacle. Some people just weren’t paying attention, whether intentional or not.

  145. 145.

    amorphous

    @Phil: Shorter Phil:

    Mom and Dad voted Republican so I will too, gosh darn it!

    And now I commence with ignoring your dumbdumbness.

  146. 146.

    kay

    @Phil:

    "We" told you we were entering a long painful recession? Who? I remember a lot of book-cooking and happy talk and outright lying from the Right.

    Imagine if conservatives had dropped the denial and actually taken positive steps to mitigate or avert this crisis, instead of crowing about home ownership rates and pointing to the stock market as an indication of financial health?

    Too late. You had your shot. You blew it.

  147. 147.

    Ed Marshall

    I thought you said they were unfunded and it was all funny-money? Where did this stock market of which you speak come in?

    If I’ve learned nothing else from this clusterfuck it’s that this country has the money to do all sorts of things. We can find a trillion dollars to paper over Wall Streets bad debts instantly. I doubt we’ll be selling off the fifth fleet to keep pension checks going.

  148. 148.

    Phil

    "Hey, Phil?

    When his ratings reach Bush, Cheney, Boehner or McConnell numbers?

    We can have this chat."

    Let’s chat in a year’s time then. The "honeymoon" will long be over by then. Eventually, results matter.

    your a goddamned liar Phil. Nearly every poll shows his ratings stable around the mid 60’s. lying wingnut.

    You’re right, I "lied". I was wrong, his ratings are down 19 from their peak, not 10-12.

    Besides, it’s only been a month. We’re still in honeymoon phase. He’s probably got another month of that too. Then it’s all downhill from there.

    Bush had 90% approval ratings once. I’m sure he missed those when they hit 25.

  149. 149.

    Comrade Stuck

    @amorphous:

    Phil is morning the loss of his dearly departed "Conservative Movement". He’s in the lashing out angry stage of grief. Come to think of it, he’s always been in that stage. Even before the The theory of The Thousand Year Permanent WingReichtard went belly up.

  150. 150.

    Conservatively Liberal

    @gbear:

    Shelby adding his voice to the inanity on the lunatic right? gbear, that doesn’t surprise me a bit. Thanks for the tidbit though. Indeed, the wingnut song is strong this morning. Kind of like the odor off a sewage treatment plant on a calm summer day.

  151. 151.

    Ed Marshall

    Fine, we’ll talk in a year. It’s a date. Then you can be Nostradamus instead of pretending to be Peter Schiff after the fact. Don’t really need anything else in the meantine.

  152. 152.

    Larime the Gimp

    @Phil:

    Eventually, results matter.

    Good to see you finally coming to terms with why your party’s out of power.

  153. 153.

    Brick Oven Bill

    What do think sunscreen is ConservativelyLiberal? Sunscreen limits damage to the skin by solar radiation.

    Can sunscreen stop neutrons or gammas? No, they pass right through the skin;

    Can sunscreen stop Alphas? It does not have to. Alphas are stopped by the dead skin cells before they can reach damageable tissue;

    Sunscreen stops Betas, which are electrons, who pass through the dead skin cells, and are stopped by live skin tissue, within our bodies;

    Beta, or electron, radiation, is a threat to the lens of the eye, and our skin. Sunscreen provides personal protection from Beta radiation, along with ultraviolet radiation. These are the facts.

    Rasmussen’s Approval Index, has Barack down around 18 points since taking office. This index is a combination of ‘strong’ and ‘general’ polling reactions. Barack’s friend Duval (Together We Can!) saw an approval fall of around 20 points between the middle of February and the middle of March. We shall see how Barack does.

  154. 154.

    gbear

    I’m lifting the following from a posting on No More Mister Nice Blog without blockquoting it (I don’t know the trick to getting multiple paragraphs to format correctly). Maybe the BJ conservatrolls will get a kick out of it:

    If the Obama plan goes through and remains in force throughout an eight-year presidency, which of the following presidents will have had the highest top tax rate, on average, during his years in the White House?

    A. Ronald Reagan
    B. Bill Clinton
    C. George W. Bush
    D. Barack Obama

    Answer: Ronald Reagan. The top rate would be 39.6% under Obama’s plan, which is what after Clinton’s tax plan passed. Under Bush, it went down to 35%.

    For most of Saint Reagan’s years, it was 50%. Fifty percent! Somehow, we survived.

  155. 155.

    Phil

    Ed, you need to take an accounting class. You seriously have no clue what unfunded liabilities are, do you?

    The public pension funds are invested all over the place, among them stocks. With those investments, the public pension fund managers pay you a pension when you retire at 50 or whatever it is your union is demanding these days.

    Since money doesn’t grow on trees, if those stocks don’t accrue at the expected rates, then the money doesn’t exist to pay your pension as promised. It doesn’t just get magically created out of thin fucking air you know. If it doesn’t come from where it’s supposed to, it’s got to come from….yet another taxpayer bailout. Think the taxpayers is going to want to bail you and your gold-plated benefits and 55 retirement age pension out in a year while their spouse just got laid off?

    Well, you are a Democrat. I suppose you’ll believe anything.

  157. 157.

    Comrade Stuck

    @Phil:

    Moron links to Rasmussen who is so far up Fox News ass, he needs permission from Roger Ailes to take a shit.

    If you want to compare Rassberrrie accuracy with that of other polls, I suggest PollingReport. Or 538 or even Realclear politics. Keep drinking the Kool Aid Phil, it tastes so goood.

  159. 159.

    Conservatively Liberal

    I see I was able to get BOB on his "Beta-Blocker" rant once again. BOB is like a top; one quick pull and he spins for hours. Now that is entertaining!

    You people aren’t helping Phil bust his nut off today. Usually he can drop a few lines, fwop a few to pop it and then go back to sleep. C’mon people, get with the program!

  160. 160.

    Phil

    For the record amorphous, Mom voted for Baracky this year. She already regrets it. Dad hates both parties so it doesn’t make a difference.

    Gbear, Reagan’s tax rates were higher because when he entered office, they were in the 70 range on the highest earners. In other words, he brought them significantly DOWN during his term, on multiple occasions. Baracky is bringing them up, in the midst of deep recession.

    Nice try though.

  161. 161.

    Ed Marshall

    Oh, because we haven’t seen any unfunded liablities before. Certainly not in the last eight years, this would be uncharted water. The people would freak out about paying for pensions out of general fund.

  162. 162.

    kay

    @Comrade Stuck:

    I like "right direction/wrong track" because it’s more a measure of policy than personality. That’s been interesting. "Right track" is creeping up, and "wrong track" is creeping down. If people hate these proposals, it should show there.

  166. 166.

    valdivia

    @Comrade Stuck:

    thanks for the link. Rass is really the worse at issue polling. Aside from the correlation/causation confusion idiocy that drives me nuts the other thing that makes my head explode are surveys that are badly constructed, full of smuggled assumptions/agenda in the questions (classic Rass)

  168. 168.

    kay

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    I don’t bet, Bill. I’m too cheap, and I’m wrong a lot. I have traditionally been the person who holds the money, and remembers the bet. I know my role, and I fulfill my fiduciary duty.

  169. 169.

    Brick Oven Bill

    The polling data posted above shows Barack dropping 9 pts in 10 days per CNN, and 5pts in 20 days (FOX). These are the only like polls given. Averaging these two polls, yields us an average approval drop of around 0.6 points per day.

    This correlates very closely with Duvall’s drop of 20 points between the middle of February and the middle of March (0.6 pts per day) * (30 days) = 18 points. This is why I am confident with my proposed wager.

  170. 170.

    Comrade Stuck

    @valdivia:

    Yes, their issue polling is not very good. But they are arguably the best during actual election polling. The problem is in between when they tweak their weighting that is way off high end from other polling say on GWB, or now, way off low end for the dem Obama. Just bucking up the GOP troops, I suspect.

  171. 171.

    valdivia

    @Comrade Stuck:

    if you look at 538/pollster in the month and a half before the election you see how for the longest time Rass was out there with positive numbers for McCain but began correcting at the end to get back to the real numbers. It happens every cycle. They cook the books to buck up the troops and then correct at the very end.

  172. 172.

    Phil

    Let’s take the Gallup poll, among the polls you mentioned.

    Approve Disap-
    prove
    % %

    2/18-20/09
    63 24

    2/17-19/09
    63 24

    2/16-18/09
    62 25

    2/15-17/09
    62 25

    2/14-16/09
    62 25

    2/12-15/09
    64 23

    2/11-14/09
    66 21

    2/10-12/09
    66 21

    2/9-11/09
    64 21

    2/8-10/09
    63 22

    2/7-9/09
    63 23

    2/6-8/09
    66 21

    2/5-7/09
    64 22

    2/4-6/09
    65 20

    2/3-5/09
    63 21

    2/2-4/09
    65 20

    2/1-3/09
    65 20

    1/31 – 2/2/09
    66 19

    1/30 – 2/1/09
    66 19

    1/29-31/09
    67 18

    1/28-30/09
    67 17

    1/27-29/09
    66 17

    1/26-28/09
    64 17

    1/25-27/09
    64 16

    1/24-26/09
    65 15

    1/23-25/09
    67 14

    1/22-24/09
    69 13

    1/21-23/09
    68 12

    Disapproval rating has more than double in less than a month and this is during the "honeymoon" period. Remember, this is a poll YOU cited. If this is a record of accomplishment, no wonder you expect Baracky to be a success.

  173. 173.

    John Cole

    I’m reading Phil, and I was flipping through the channels looking for the ‘EErs/Rutgers game, and Glenn Beck and Stephen Moore are on FOX talking about New York looking like Calcutta in 4 years, and I realize now how silly my peak wingnut post was.

    We are nowhere near peak wingnut.

  175. 175.

    kay

    @JL:

    Thank you. I understand completely why conservatives are so angry, because liberals had the same period of being discredited and climbing back out. The thing is, you have to climb out. You can’t just pretend everything worked like a charm, and there was really no good reason for your loss of power. Liberals did endless agonizing and mea culpas. Christ. How many books were written? How many approaches were tried and abandoned? It was work.

    Not conservatives. This digging in and doubling down they’re doing is not a quality I admire.

  177. 177.

    Ed Marshall

    Yeah, Bob, the size of the average television has been growing by an average of 140% a year for the last decade. I’m very confident of my prediction that by 2020 the average television will be 30 ft. long.

  178. 178.

    Phil

    But they are arguably the best during actual election polling. The problem is in between when they tweak their weighting that is way off high end from other polling say on GWB, or now, way off low end for the dem Obama. Just bucking up the GOP troops, I suspect.

    The bolded item is the only poll that matters. I would tend to believe Rasmussen over the other polls based on his polls with eventual electoral outcomes.

    But even under your polls, Baracky’s trend numbers aren’t very pretty, unless more than doubling your disapproval rating during your initial honeymoon period is viewed as a success.

  180. 180.

    Comrade Stuck

    @Phil:

    Well, of course, that number is irrelevant with a 65 percent ave. approval. It’s like when the House of Reps votes and the difference it makes whether a 100 wingnuts vote against a bill or 174 vote vote nay . The increase is likely due to starburst goopers playing too long with their Palin Doll and not answering the phone. I’m guessing of course.

  181. 181.

    John Cole

    But even under your polls, Baracky’s trend numbers aren’t very pretty, unless more than doubling your disapproval rating during your initial honeymoon period is viewed as a success.

    His disapproval rating was 12. Now it has “doubled” to 24.

    Say it again. 24. Twenty-four is lower than the percentage of Bush dead-enders who would vote for four more years of Bush/Cheney.

    Christ, Phil. Is this the kind of statistical interpretation that comes with your “phd level” economic training?

  182. 182.

    kay

    @Brick Oven Bill:

    The approval drop is among Republicans, though, Bill, and they’re a finite quantity. I think that’s the flaw in your analysis.

    This was an easy drop. Now you gotta eat into Independents and Democrats, and there are more Democrats.

    We can bet if you’d like. No money, because that’s just silly.

    I’ll admit it if I lose, and I will be completely discredited on polls and you can do whatever you do when you win. Jump around, jeer, whatever.

  183. 183.

    Phil

    I’m reading Phil, and I was flipping through the channels looking for the ‘EErs/Rutgers game, and Glenn Beck and Stephen Moore are on FOX talking about New York looking like Calcutta in 4 years, and I realize now how silly my peak wingnut post was. We are nowhere near peak wingnut.

    Ok, apparently you ARE still sucking at the DNC tit John. Thanks for the clarification. Are you still a "conservative" like Andy Dandy Sullivan or are you full fledged Messiah voter until he throws you under the bus?

    Never did answer my question on extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay and bombing Pakistan though John. Are you ok with those again now? You know, now that Baracky is doing them.

  184. 184.

    amorphous

    @John Cole: There is no such thing. It will asymptotically approach infinity.

    See: Phil and Bill, Brick Oven… Oooooh, I have an idea…

    TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN LEAVES!

  185. 185.

    Phil

    His disapproval rating was 12. Now it has “doubled” to 24.

    Say it again. 24. Twenty-four is lower than the percentage of Bush dead-enders who would vote for four more years of Bush/Cheney.

    Christ, Phil. Is this the kind of statistical interpretation that comes with your “phd level” economic training?"

    John, I remember you being a lot smarter in the past. Maybe I was just young and naive. What is difficult to understand about this? Baracky has JUST started and in the first month of his honeymoon phase, his disapproval ratings have more than doubled. That might have something to do with the Dow being down 2000 points since he took office. Just a hunch John.

    Remember how turbo-charged you were when Bush had 90% approval ratings and you couldn’t wait for America to get its war on? How’d that work out for you? 63% doesn’t look so hot now, does it?

  186. 186.

    Comrade Jake

    I love it how the wingnuts point to a 24% disapproval rating as evidence that Obama’s in big trouble. I mean, seriously Phil, you’re off your fucking rocker.

  187. 187.

    Ninerdave

    In somewhat related news:

    Fox/Glen Beck lose Charles Johnson

    I’ve been expecting this meltdown since Glenn Beck started talking about the “End Times” on his Fox News show last week, but yesterday he went full-on survivalist. All he needs is a sandwich board reading, “Repent, sinners!”

    Is it irresponsible for Fox News to be airing this over the top, creepy alarmist stuff during a financial crisis? Well, yeah, I think so. But then, I’ve pretty much stopped watching since it became the network of Mike Huckabee, Pat Buchanan, and all Hannity, all the time.

  188. 188.

    John Cole

    Never did answer my question on extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay and bombing Pakistan though John. Are you ok with those again now? You know, now that Baracky is doing them.

    I never answered them because I was giggling too hard at your use of the word “schilling” last night:

    John, like Andy Sullivan, I see you’re still schilling for your new masters

    As in, I assume, Kurt?

    Whoever is writing Phil is doing a wonderful job with the spoof. My next favorite comment was this:

    Again, I know a thing or two about moral hazard, being a Phd level economist.

    That was spooferific.

    The best part of this is that the reason Phil hates me is because I refused to continue “schilling” for the Bush administration.

  189. 189.

    Ninerdave

    @Comrade Jake:

    I love it how the wingnuts point to a 24% disapproval rating as evidence that Obama’s in big trouble. I mean, seriously Phil, you’re off your fucking rocker.

    But that’s equal to Bush’s approval rating when he left office. That obviously means that Obama has failed.

  190. 190.

    John Cole

    John, I remember you being a lot smarter in the past. Maybe I was just young and naive. What is difficult to understand about this? Baracky has JUST started and in the first month of his honeymoon phase, his disapproval ratings have more than doubled. That might have something to do with the Dow being down 2000 points since he took office.

    Phil- Take your “Phd level” understanding of the economy. Tell me what the DOW was on 20 January 2009. Tell me what it was on Friday. Explain how that is nowhere near 2000 points, yet you state otherwise.

    Answer: You are a wingnut who reads Malkin and believes it.

  191. 191.

    gnomedad

    @Phil:

    Never did answer my question on extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay and bombing Pakistan though John. Are you ok with those again now? You know, now that Baracky is doing them.

    The Bushies planted a bunch of land mines, and you want Obama to hurry up and find them with his feet. Sorry, try again.

  192. 192.

    Brick Oven Bill

    I enjoy observing the interactions between O’Reilly and Beck. There must be some contractual deal that O’Reilly has to have Beck on his show weekly. O’Reilly is comfortable as king poo-bah, and is threatened that Beck is getting similar ratings in a non-prime time slot.

    O’Reilly is full of shit, but Beck, like him or not, seems to be speaking from his heart. Beck knows O’Reilly is full of shit and reacts, when on O’Reilly’s set, when O’Reilly says something stupid, by turning directly to the camera, and making a silly face.

    This has O’Reilly steamed.

    The last time Beck was on O’Reilly, Beck was placed in a separate room with only one camera. Beck is the new FOX Alpha.

  193. 193.

    Comrade Stuck

    when Bush had 90% approval ratings

    Preznit Elmer Fudd would have had 90% approval after 9-11. Then the cartoon character became real.

  194. 194.

    Phil

    Phil- Take your “Phd level” understanding of the economy. Tell me was the DOW was on 20 January 2009. Tell me what it was on Friday. Explain how that is nowhere near 2000 points, yet you state otherwise.

    You got me John. I should have said, "since his inauguration", not "since he took office".

    DOW Nov 4th, 2008 9625
    DOW Feb 20th, 2009 7365

    That’s a heckuva job there John. Heckuva job.

  195. 195.

    kay

    @Ninerdave:

    I’m not a PhD economist, or Scott Rasmussen, but party matters. The "R" voters are easy to pick off. It gets tougher from here. There’s also a blow-back reaction. Democrats solidify as "R"s desert, and that would seem logical and expected, both on partisan-hack grounds and policy grounds.

  196. 196.

    Comrade Stuck

    @Phil:

    You should have said since the election pea brain, but you didn’t. He wasn’t inaugurated on Nov 4, he was elected and had no power until Jan 20 09 and took office or was inaugurated. My Parakeet knows that.

  197. 197.

    amorphous

    @Phil: This word, inauguration… I don’t think you understand…

    Either way, the Malkin link was posted here. Such creative individual thinking, the individuals of your herd share. Christ, you are making Elisabeth Hasselbeck look downright erudite.

  199. 199.

    Comrade Jake

    Phil, you are really outdoing yourself here, I have to hand it to you. I mean, you’re giving stupid a real run for its money. Why don’t you tell us what the Dow was when Obama was born in Kenya, and just get all the wingnut out of your system at once?

    YOU CAN DO IT!

  201. 201.

    Phil

    Still no answer on extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay and bombing Pakistan though, eh? Do you favor them again or not John? I’m not trying to paint you into a corner here John, I’m just trying to see how full of shit you are. .

    We can play cutesy with misspelled words on an internet blog til the end of days, but that’s not really interesting, is it John? There are serious issues and require serious stances.

    Baracky is a big fan of extraordinary renditions. Are you…again?

    Baracky’s lawyers recently concluded Guantanamo Bay meets Geneva convention requirements? You agree about that…again?

    Baracky is bombing the shit out of Pakistan and killing civilians left and right in the process. You agree we should be bombing the shit out of Pakistan? (I skip again in this case, since Baracky REALLY seems to have a grievance or two for bombing the piss out of "Poch-e-stan"…must have have had a bad acid trip there in his youth or something)

  202. 202.

    valdivia

    @Comrade Stuck:

    but don’t you know that just the knowledge that Obama won the election made the markets go down? Actually the prospect of his election is really the cause of this recession. /snark.

    Seriously though, even my freshmen non-economist students know this is ridiculous. I guess this particular PhD economist was not taught the difference between spurious relationships between variables and causation.

  203. 203.

    Phil

    You should have said since the election pea brain, but you didn’t. He wasn’t inaugurated on Nov 4, he was elected and had no power until Jan 20 09 and took office or was inaugurated. My Parakeet knows that.

    Meanwhile in the real world, your 401K has still gone down by the same amount. In the era of Hope and Change.

  204. 204.

    amorphous

    @Phil:

    We can play cutesy with misspelled words on an internet blog til the end of days…

    Grandpa!?

    I bet you are aware of all internet traditions.

  206. 206.

    Martin

    and I realize now how silly my peak wingnut post was.

    We keep trying to tell you – there is no peak wingnut. Zero taxes, a howitzer in every garage and 3 mexican slaves packing your luggage to vacation in glass-covered Iran, now the 52nd state, and they’d still be shaking their fists at the sky and decrying how the end of America is nigh.

  207. 207.

    Comrade Stuck

    Phil

    Maybe should actually read Obama’s exec order on the subject of rendition and put Phdfu to work’ Here is an excerpt.

    (ii) to study and evaluate the practices of transferring individuals to other nations in order to ensure that such practices comply with the domestic laws, international obligations, and policies of the United States and do not result in the transfer of individuals to other nations to face torture or otherwise for the purpose, or with the effect, of undermining or circumventing the commitments or obligations of the United States to ensure the humane treatment of individuals in its custody or control.

    Read the whole thing

  208. 208.

    John Cole

    Baracky’s lawyers recently concluded Guantanamo Bay meets Geneva convention requirements?

    Phil can’t even get the basics right on the issues he is trying to needle me with. Obama’s lawyers didn’t do anything of the sort. What happened was he ordered the Pentagon to review the conditions there and provide him a report in the course of pursuing plans to shut down Gitmo.

    It is like Phil only understands 1/4 of every story and then runs with it.

  209. 209.

    Phil

    Seriously though, even my freshmen non-economist students know this is ridiculous. I guess this particular PhD economist was not taught the difference between spurious relationships between variables and causation.

    No, Baracky is hardly solely responsible for the fall of the Dow.

    But when he keeps telling the Dow to stay tuned, stay tuned, stay tuned for his incredible upcoming TARP II program and that program turns out to be…well nobody knew what the hell Geitner was actually proposing and the market tanked 400 or so points that day, reactionary minds may start to wonder if this administration knows what the fuck it’s talking about once it’s actually finished Turbo-taxing its tax returns.

  211. 211.

    Comrade Stuck

    @John Cole:

    I love this shit, it is why I blog, and we get so few Phil’s anymore. Don’t burst for a little while longer Phil, okay.

  212. 212.

    valdivia

    I got it–all the PhD level economists that took the economy to the trash think like Phil which just makes it clear why we are in the situation we are in. First he blames Obama as if Obama was inaugurated in Nov. Then when confronted with the facts he says–well it does not matter who was in charge because the numbers are still bad. when you can’t answer you change the subject, typical republican sleigh of hand. But of course no one would ever notice that right?

  214. 214.

    kay

    @Phil:

    I don’t believe that. I think financial stocks fell because investors realized that Geithner is not bailing them out and many banks are insolvent.

    Why is it Geithner’s job to hold their hand? Why don’t banks allay the fears of investors by showing what’s on their books? What’s wrong with financial interest’s stock falling? That’s a rational market response. That’s what should happen.

    We both know why banks aren’t allaying fears. Because if they admit the depth and breadth of this problem they’re toast. This is a game. It’s who blinks first.

  215. 215.

    John Cole

    No, Baracky is hardly solely responsible for the fall of the Dow.

    But when he keeps telling the Dow to stay tuned, stay tuned, stay tuned for his incredible upcoming TARP II program and that program turns out to be

    Phil is now justifying why he asserts Obama should take the blame for market movement from November 4th to January 20th, and it appears to be the reason that is included is a speech made by Geithner three weeks AFTER January 20th.

    You simply can not spoof these wingnuts.

  216. 216.

    Fulcanelli

    @ Phil: I think stepping into a job where 300 million people in the US and literally billions of people and governments around the world are experiencing SVT symptoms due to a very real global economic meltdown caused by your predececessor’s brain-dead ideology and fiscal malfeasance can hardly be called a "honeymoon". But run with it if gets you through the night…

    And to add insult to injury the same predecessor’s political supporters are fixin’ to incite a frickin’ civil war on domestic soil. Oh that’s a honeymoon alright. The fucking guy’s been in office barely over a month.

    Chill out pal, If your side had all the fucking answers we wouldn’t be in this mess, now would we? All that number crunching and data mining you economists do, and you still haven’t figured out how to quantify the "X" factor: Greed.

    Lord knows the R’s haven’t had any real opposition from the Dems since Tip O’Neal died. So what’s your excuse for this mess? The inverterbrate Democrats?

    Weak. Really effin’ weak.

  217. 217.

    Phil

    Phil can’t even get the basics right on the issues he is trying to needle me with. Obama’s lawyers didn’t do anything of the sort. What happened was he ordered the Pentagon to review the conditions there and provide him a report in the course of pursuing plans to shut down Gitmo.

    John, your credibility is rapidly deteriorating but let’s try to FOCUS, mmkay?

    I was told by the Left that Guantanamo Bay was a GIANT TORTURE CHAMBER akin to NAZI DEATH CAMPS and POL POL’S KILLING FIELDS during the evil BOOOOOSH years.

    Now that Baracky is the Community Organizer in Chief and the internal investigation he ordered found Guantanamo was in compliance with the Geneva Conventions all along, a reactionary person might start to wonder if Baracky and the Left were full of shit when they made those claims in the past?

    A really reactionary person then might start to wonder if intentionally damaging the reputation of the United States by lying about Guantanamo Bay for the purpose of gaining political power might have gotten a person thrown in prison for sedition during Abe Lincoln’s day – the Abe Lincoln Baracky loves but doesn’t seem to know much about.

    But let’s start small: John, were YOU full of shit then or are you full of shit now?

    It’s going to be fun watching you sell your soul defending this guy for the next 4 years John. The cognitive dissonance must really be starting to get to you. You supported a President for a few years before you decided you hated his policies. Then you voted for another change because he was supposed to change all of those policies and change,hope, change, yadda yadda yadda. Now it turns out this new guy is double downing on a lot of those policies you initially supported, then hated and now support again.

    Man, this must all be a real mind fuck for you John.

  219. 219.

    Bubblegum Tate

    Wingnuts have a solution to the economic mess:

    The best way out of this mess is the German Economic Miracle way: suspend regulations. All regulations. Make it easy to start new companies. Let ingenuity work to allocate capital.

    Gee, what could possibly go wrong?

  220. 220.

    gbear

    @Fulcanelli:

    Chill out pal, If your side had all the fucking answers we wouldn’t be in this mess, now would we?

    Actually, Phil’s side DID have all the answers. It’s just that every single last one of them was totally fucking wrong.

  221. 221.

    Comrade Stuck

    found Guantanamo was in compliance with the Geneva Conventions all along,

    Th rat maze of lies your peddling is running out of possibilities Phil.

    All Along Not hardly, Just recently.

  223. 223.

    kay

    @Comrade Jake:

    I’m going to give Shelby a pass because citizens asking questions at a forum is wildly over-rated, in my experience. I go to them for local candidates, or used to. The craziest, loudest people get the mike. We’ve had candidates for judge spend 20 minutes on problems with mail delivery. I sat through a Great Lakes water quality forum that was completely co-opted by a single 9/11 truther. I had to go. I basically fled.
    It all depends on the host’s ability to manage the crazy. You have to be aggressive and merciless. The deer in the headlights politician is basically a victim of the process.

  224. 224.

    Phil

    Valdivia, I’m already posted this but sigh, I’ll do it again for slow people like John:

    Peter Schiff predicted all of this

    Who’s Peter Schiff? He was the economic adviser to Ron Paul. I’m no Paul supporter, but Schiff is quite the free-marketeer like John used to be. We would probably be wise to listen to someone like Schiff, who has been opposed to all of this Baracky nonsense, but we’re now being lectured by liberals who couldn’t read their mortgages and now want me to bail them out.

    I might also add that this crisis sprung its ugly head in 2006-2007 after Democrats gained control of Congress and were fully vested in subprime mortgages through their surrogates Fannie Mae and Freddie Mae, opposing all regulation and oversight of them.

    Look, I realize the liberals won the media narrative that BOOOSH sucks, Republicans suck, market bad, socialism good, Baracky good all the way back in November, and that these things take a while to play out before the general public realizes what’s going on. Your party now 100% owns all the horrible bills and plans coming out of Congress right now. We will make you famous next year.

    The shit is hitting the fan and it’s going to be hard to blame the Republicans for them when they don’t actually have any power.

  225. 225.

    Fulcanelli

    Phil, did you get into your mom’s diet pills again? You should save ’em for exam week. And lay off the caffeine.

    Do you allot any of the current mess the US is in to the previous administration or the financial wizards of Wall Street? Any at all? Or is it all the fault of the Democrat homeowners who need help with their mortgages?

  226. 226.

    AhabTRuler

    Look the argument for Republicans has been reduced to: "There is plenty of shit to go around, I can smear some on you too. It is sticky…and warm!"

    200+ comments in a Sunday open thread. Sheesh!

  227. 227.

    Comrade Darkness

    OT. Europe’s massive banks are teetering. Interesting Times folks, Interesting Times.

    1 trillion of off balance-sheet liabilities at HYPO. (The Germans are insane about accounting and audits, so someone deserves a medal for book cooking artistry.) If you care, you can run that url through translate.google.com. It does a fair job.

    related article in english

    But… but… but, how can it be? Europe doesn’t have a 1977 community reinvestment act…

    (oh, forgot the best part. Bailing that out would double the german national debt, pushing it over GDP)

  230. 230.

    gbear

    @kay:

    Kay, Couldn’t Shelby have simply answered "The issue of the president’s birth certificate has been settled" ?
    McCain shut down that MN woman who called Obama an ‘Ay-rab’ with one short comment telling her she was wrong. Shelby’s statement left the door open for the wingnut interpretation that Obama’s not one of ‘us’. That really doesn’t deserve a pass, imho.

  231. 231.

    Mike in NC

    I was told by the Left that Guantanamo Bay was a GIANT TORTURE CHAMBER akin to NAZI DEATH CAMPS and POL POL’S KILLING FIELDS during the evil BOOOOOSH years.

    John’s right. You can almost hear the air leaking out of this imbecile’s head. Been to Gitmo; miserable place but probably Club Med compared to Tora Bora.

  234. 234.

    Fulcanelli

    @JL: See Alexandra Pelosi’s HBO Documentary: Right America: Feeling Wronged. You’ll find your answer, my friend.

  235. 235.

    Ash Can

    @Napoleon: I can’t figure out the Vatican’s involvement in that at all. The official stance of the Catholic Church has always been that life should not be sustained by extraordinary means — in other words, if there’s no hope for recovery, then go ahead and disconnect the machines. Of course, "hope for recovery" is a fluid concept, but the consensus of conscientious professionals is good enough. Granted, I don’t know all the details of this case as they pertain to the basis for the Vatican’s involvement, but it seems weird to me, and that’s putting it charitably. Yet another reason to wonder what the hell the cardinals were thinking when they elected Ratzinger.

    @Napoleon: Actually, getting these people and their sordid ideas out in public has a silver lining — it helps the more responsible elements of our society (including government types charged with the protection of the President) identify and monitor them. Disclaimer: no, I don’t think surveillance is a happy thought in a supposedly free society. But it has its time and its place.

  236. 236.

    valdivia

    So I am a great fan of the Eurovision contest (yes, i am not even ashamed to confess I like all that cheesy europop stuff and yes I am a naturalized american so maybe that is why).

    This year the Georgians are sending this little gem to the contest in Moscow by a pop group called Stephanie and the 3G
    —We Don’t Want a Put In
    I am sure ‘Put In’ will be cheering in the crowd.

    /hat tip TNR

  238. 238.

    valdivia

    @AhabTRuler:

    well I did say I loved cheesy (spelling?). ;-)
    so in that sense it may be a race to the bottom. I still love they will be tweaking him at home. since no one else seems able to do it and survive.

  239. 239.

    Phil

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

    It’s gonna be great fun watching John’s cognitive dissonance crank it up 12 notches since he initially supported these policies, then denounced these policies and now is right back to supporting them again.

    Quite a clusterfuck for you John, isn’t it? Perhaps you’ll be a "liberal of conscience" in 2 years time and start pooh-poohing Baracky? It’s ok John, you can do as you please. We’re just not that into you.

  240. 240.

    gbear

    Phil, you really do suck. You’re back doing you’re regular thing about how somewhere in the future we’ll all discover that you were right and won’t that make us mad. You write like a three year old having revenge fantasies. It wastes our time.

  241. 241.

    John Cole

    Is Phil just not understanding that while I don’t agree with Obama on everything, I don’t think it makes any sense to treat him after one month the same way I treated Bush after 6 years of fail?

    And what is most amusing is that if these policies are identical to Bush (pro-tip, they are not), then Phil should love him. But then again, despite Phil’s assurances otherwise, this really isn’t about policy.

    This is about rehabilitating Bush. Get back to me in a bit, Phil. If Obama has not changed the direction of our policies, I will be trashing him. Right now, I think he has earned more than a month to get shit taken care of.

    Aren’t you supposed to be out with a couple dozen freepers shouting porkulus somewhere, anyway?

  242. 242.

    Phil

    And just for the record, since liberals accuse conservatives of being full of hate: I don’t hate any of the liberals here. I disagree with you, but at least you’re honest with yourselves. Your policies might be terrible for America, but at least you appear to genuinely believe in them.

    Andrew Sullivan, on the other hand, I do hate because he’s a pathetic piece of shit who just goes with the flow and tries to convince himself he’s on the right side. Must be low self esteem or something.

    I also don’t hate John. He’s kind of the "conservative of conscience" second tier. I just feel sorry for them. Not quite first tier, but trying their best to jump on the bandwagon of certifiably crazy people like Andy Dandy.

    One day you’ll make it John. Continued insistence that Sarah Palin faked her own pregnancy may be required however. That’s pretty low though John, can you handle?

  243. 243.

    Comrade Stuck

    @gbear:

    Kind of reminds me of Pluk and his ominous electoral visions of a blacketty black Obama wipeout by Mccain. Though Pluk was smarter than Phil, he was a sight crazier as well.

  245. 245.

    Conservatively Liberal

    Damn, Phil is on a marathon wankfest today. His convoluted logic makes it clear that he got his PhD from Bob Jones University. Impressive.

    Shorter Phil: I just discovered my asshole is scratch and sniff!

    Aww, ain’t that cute! You gonna piss and drink from the ‘fountain’ next? You sure are an entertaining little Rushublican wingnut. Oh, regarding the cute little "Baracky" noise you make when pinched? Absolutely priceless!

    Please keep it up. You’re like one of those little wind-up monkeys that clang the cymbals together, but a wingnut powered version. Cute phrases and all!

  246. 246.

    Phil

    Actually gbear, I like debating with liberals. Believe it or not, I have a lot of liberal friends…and I debate with them. And then we go out and be civil and nice to each other afterwards. Sometimes I convince them and sometimes they convince me.

    On the other hand, poseurs and frauds like John and Andy Sullivan piss me off. Their whole ideology, whatever the hell it is that day, is based on nothing but following the crowd, not their conscience, despite their claims to the contrary.

    I don’t mind if conservatives ended up thinking Bush was a failed President (hell, I am one of them) but when John’s jumping on the new fad because he wants to hang out with the cool kids, I’m going to call him on it. John doesn’t want to face up to the fact that the policies that he supported, then denounced are now back on the table. He’s supporting them again because the new guy he likes has checked the box for them this time but if BOOOOSH was in office he’d still be denouncing them

    I don’t do poseurs or bullshit. I see a lot of it in the "conservatives of conscience" crowd, which is why I mock it so. And unless you, like Andy Sullivan, STILL think Sarah Polin faked her own pregnancy, then perhaps you find a little humor in it too.

  247. 247.

    Phil

    And what is most amusing is that if these policies are identical to Bush (pro-tip, they are not), then Phil should love him. But then again, despite Phil’s assurances otherwise, this really isn’t about policy.

    Where did I say I opposed Baracky’s stances on these issues? I think we SHOULD keep Guantanamo open. Hell, Baracky still doesn’t even know where he’s going to put them in the states yet and it’s been a month since his executive order closing G-bay…minor details I suppose.

    So you see John, it IS about policy. It’s also about integrity. Andy Dandy has none and you’re treading pretty close. If Andy Sullivan has his 6th epiphany of the decade and decides to become a conservative again, I really wouldn’t give a shit. He’s lost his integrity and it’s so far removed, he’s not going to find it anymore.

    He’s kind of like the new version of David Brock (not David Brooks, look him up if you don’t know the difference). Not a place you want to be John.

    I’m not a big fan of partisan hacks and I’m certainly not a big fan of partisan hacks who dance around from year to year depending on the political temperature outside.

  248. 248.

    Comrade Stuck

    @Phil:

    On the other hand, poseurs and frauds like John and Andy Sullivan piss me off. Their whole ideology, whatever the hell it is that day, is based on nothing but following the crowd, not their conscience, despite their claims to the contrary

    Though it was a little before my time here, I believe when Cole jumped the wingnut ship, Bush still had good polling numbers. I’ve heard it was around the Shiavo fiasco. Somebody can correct me if that’s wrong. So, saying Cole jumped ship just to get with the popular crowd is just more of your bullshit Phil. You say you think Bush was a failed president, but that’s not how I remember it a couple of years ago when you were still "schilling"" for the guy. Your the poseur Phil, you and the other wingnuts who now rag on Bush, but didn’t start until the GOP got their asses handed to them in 06. Then it was OMFG, that Bush, he ain’t one of us real conservatives. Wanker!

  249. 249.

    bago

    Phil: Just curious. As an economist to be, what do you feel about Bush and congressional republicans taking large portions of budget off the books to try and conceal the size of their deficits?

  250. 250.

    Phil

    Phil: Just curious. As an economist to be, what do you feel about Bush and congressional republicans taking large portions of budget off the books to try and conceal the size of their deficits?

    I never liked it and applaud Obama’s decision to put it on the books. When he’s right, he’ll get credit from me.

  251. 251.

    bago

    Phil: As an economist to be, what do you feel about major corporation and major banks taking major portions of their portfolios off the books to mislead investors leading the institutions to the point where they need to fail or need or need to be bailed out and or federalized?

    Do you feel lying to shareholders is good corporate behavior?

  252. 252.

    Phil

    Bago,

    These are sort of obvious questions with obvious answers. Fraud is against the law and should be treated as such. To do otherwise would be crony capitalism. And I’m, for the most part, a free-market capitalist.

    PS Bernie Madoff was a huge Democratic donor.

  254. 254.

    Comrade Jake

    @Phil:

    Believe it or not, I have a lot of liberal friends

    I believe you, because I have a lot of friends who are wingnuts.

  255. 255.

    Phil

    Bago was trying to suggest that I as a conservative supported in some way deception to investors.

    I kindly reminded him that the biggest investment Ponzi scheme EVER was cooked up by a Democrat.

    He started it, and I finished it.

  256. 256.

    PaulB

    @Phil:

    I might also add that this crisis sprung its ugly head in 2006-2007 after Democrats gained control of Congress and were fully vested in subprime mortgages through their surrogates Fannie Mae and Freddie Mae, opposing all regulation and oversight of them.

    ROFL… Oh, my, that is freaking hilarious. He claims a PhD in Economics and he’s still trying to peddle this long-discredited bullshit? This is wonderful. Don’t ever quit, Phil; we love you just the way you are.

  257. 257.

    Fulcanelli

    @ John Cole: Yes. He doesn’t understand. And his contempt for you is the same contempt all conservatives have for people who leave the island of misfit toys on their own. It also applies to filthy rich liberals like Soros. You betrayed their core principles of exclusion and exception, you left the club and now rub elbows with the unwashed who want to take our money. You’ll find you now have your own circle in hell with these fools, John. But you must already know that by now.

    Our boy Phil is smart and has a very good education and while I do respect that, the fatal flaw in his worldview is he hasn’t had his cherry busted out out in the working world long enough for it to sink in that the real working world doesn’t always line up with the shit you’re taught in the insular world of academia. Numbers be damned.

    I doubt he’d enjoy hangin’ down at the roadhouse in some rural American town, suckin’ on some BBQ and tossin’ a few back with the blue collar redneck locals he claimes political kinship with as much as he’d like us to believe. He’s a smart-ass, elitist prick with a good education who feels superior to us bolsheviks who are fed up with taking it in the wazoo from the rich overlords he’s dying to work for.
    Nothing more. Bitch.

  258. 258.

    Tsulagi

    We are nowhere near peak wingnut.

    Nope, and the extended forecast calls for continued looney. As amply evidenced by Wingnut Phils, Diaper Daves, or whichever nuttian thinking that anyone outside their masturbatory starburst chambers could believe the GOP is the party of fiscal responsibility, small government, intelligent national security and defense, etc. given their record when they have the buttons.

    That ship didn’t just sail, that fucker sunk. In really, really deep water. Now the loons think they can refloat that boat by pretending they now give a shit about deficits. Wasn’t it Cheney who said Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter?

    But no worries, the new RNC chair is certain they’ll not only refloat that boat, but it’ll be shinier than ever if they just learn to twitter and hip hop. See, stale message delivery sunk their ship, not that they proved no one with any sanity would put them on the bridge. Yep, they’re the serious adults.

  259. 259.

    Phil

    Our boy Phil is smart and has a very good education and while I do respect that, the fatal flaw in his worldview is he hasn’t had his cherry busted out out in the working world long enough for it to sink in that the real working world doesn’t always line up with the shit you’re taught in the insular world of academia. Numbers be damned.

    I doubt he’d enjoy hangin’ down at the roadhouse in some rural American town, suckin’ on some BBQ and tossin’ a few back with the blue collar redneck locals he claimes political kinship with as much as he’d like us to believe. He’s a smart-ass, elitist prick with a good education who feels superior to us bolsheviks who are fed up with taking it in the wazoo from the rich overlords he’s dying to work for.
    Nothing more. Bitch."

    Don’t assume things. When you do, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me" as they say.

    I’ve grown up in cities and grown up in suburban and rural areas. I’ve lived adjacent to skyscrapers and adjacent to farms.

    And I’ve worked ever since I’ve graduated college, and attend graduate school at night.

    I’ve seen the office politics and the discredited models. I was reading economists years ago like Stephen Roach and Nouriel Roubini (two of the economists who essentially predicted everything that has happened) on a weekly basis long before you had even heard of them. I don’t say this to toot my own horn, but I believe I have some credibility on matters economic. When the housing crisis is fixed (and it eventually will be), then public pensions are the next big problem. It’s not rocket science – it’s just paying attention.

  260. 260.

    PaulB

    Someone should also tell dear little Phil that every President gets a bounce right at their Inauguration, and every President loses that bounce fairly rapidly. But then, I don’t need to tell him that, do I? What with him being a "phd level economist" and all.

  261. 261.

    PaulB

    then public pensions are the next big problem. It’s not rocket science – it’s just paying attention.

    Dear heart, of course the pensions are going to be in trouble. That’s been the case for the past twenty years or more. They’re *always* in trouble.

    What we’re laughing at you about is the notion that it’s somehow farsighted to blather about it (as if 7,000,000 Google hits for pension fund problems wasn’t sufficient) or that it’s indicative of anything other than the fact that some pensions are underfunded, which has always been the case and always will be the case, particularly in times like these.

    What I found equally amusing was your little diatribe about union salaries outpacing inflation. Again, as though that were indicative of, well, anything, other than your own biases and general cluelessness. Tell us again about Fannie and Freddie, won’t you, Unca Phil? We all love good bedtime fairy tales.

    Here’s a free clue: if you’re going to pretend to some level of expertise, it helps to not post complete drivel on the subject that you’re pretending to have expertise in.

  262. 262.

    PaulB

    I don’t say this to toot my own horn, but I believe I have some credibility on matters economic.

    Well, see, Phil, there’s your problem. When you assume things, you make an ass out of … well, no, in this case, it’s just you.

  263. 263.

    John Cole

    I don’t say this to toot my own horn, but I believe I have some credibility on matters economic. When the housing crisis is fixed (and it eventually will be), then public pensions are the next big problem.

    Tell us again, oh economic sage, how the dow dropped 2000 since November 4th and it is Obama’s fault. Which book was that from? What theoretical underpinning are you using for that piece of batshittery? Would other renowned economists agree with your theoretical basis for saying “Heckuva job” after alleging the dow is down 2k since November 4th simply because Obama was elected President.

    Or am I just “schilling” for Obama by pointing out you are utterly and completely full of shit.

  264. 264.

    PaulB

    Perhaps someone should also tell Phil that St. Reagan passed the biggest tax *increase* in history during his term? And raised them every year thereafter?

    Nah, why let a few inconvenient facts get in his way? He’s a man on a mission!

  265. 265.

    Dennis-SGMM

    So, how many more posts before Phil explains reveals that the Obama administration will sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids?

  266. 266.

    PaulB

    Or that, according to the CBO, the typical middle-class taxpayer ended up paying *more* in taxes, as a percentage of their income, in 1988 than they had in 1980. When was Reagan’s term again? Oh, right….

  267. 267.

    bago

    Phil: As an upcoming economist, how good of a job do you feel the SEC did, when not even investigating people when given complete case files?

  268. 268.

    BethanyAnne

    @Phil:

    Don’t assume things. When you do, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me" as they say.

    Phil, let’s be honest. You are a coward. I tell you what. Why don’t you run for office? Or, hell, write a blog for 5 or 6 years. Develop a track record. Take a stand, and see how it weathers the test of time.

    Or, I guess, you could come around here and try to bust the balls of the host, who at the very least has been out there for a while, taking positions, and having the courage to say who he supports. He hasn’t hidden behind the BS of "not that I supported Ron Paul".

    You wanna criticize? Sure, take your shot, I guess. But until you actually put what you believe out there for a long time, you are just wanking. No points from me.

  269. 269.

    bago

    Phil: Please note that I have only asked questions. I have not made any assertions. A college student should notice the difference between a question and an assertion if they want to go far.

  270. 270.

    Ailuridae

    @Phil:

    Phil, earlier you wrote that Austrian School/von Mises nutter and incompetent investment advisor Peter Schiff "predicted all of this". Schiff’s predictions about the economy have been far more incorrect than correct and he basically had a broken watch moment re the housing bubble. As part of the solution to an economic crisis that amounts to little more than a failure to properly regulate Schiff and the other Austrian nutters are now offering a solution of, wait, wait don’t tell me – less regulation and lower taxation. Many economists (Baker, Krugman, Stiglitz et al) almost exclusively on the "left" were far more broadly correct here.

    I suspect you are not ignorant of these facts but are deliberately lying to advance your argument in the face of reality. I actually have some respect for that sort of dedication to ideology in the face of reality so I will allow you to admit here that Peter Schiff got a lot more wrong than right before I expose you as an ignoramus.

  271. 271.

    TheHatOnMyCat

    Or am I just “schilling” for Obama

    These are some peppery comments, compadres.

    But anyway, speaking of horse’s ass stuff like Obama and a falling stock market (similar to the din of complaints we heard while the market lost 50% of its value adusted for inflation while BushThePotatohead was president) …

    Two governors, at least …. Jindal and Barbour … said on tv this morning that they didn’t want to be taking stim money for unemployment benefits because … and I am not making this up … they might have to raise taxes later "when this money runs out."

    Get that? The package keeps them from having to raise revenue now to pay for those benefits, which is why they don’t want the money.

    Brilliant! I always knew there was something smart behind that there "conservative movement." That’s why you got sucked into it for so long, John. Don’t blame yourself like some around here are wont to do!

    j/k, I swear to fucking Gawd.

  272. 272.

    Conservatively Liberal

    Two governors, at least …. Jindal and Barbour … said on tv this morning that they didn’t want to be taking stim money. . .

    And one governator said that if they don’t want it then he will be more than happy to take their share because he needs it. Hopefully they will take him up on his offer, I am sure that their constituents would agree. ;)

    Looks like Phil got his fill and finally busted that nut off. If you hear the faint sound of fwop fwop fwop in the distance, that ain’t a bird coming in for a landing. It’s just ol’ Phil on his way back for another round of pud play.

  273. 273.

    Chuck Butcher

    Folks, in regard to wingnuttery Phil, you have a liar on your hands. Here are the clues, "tax the rich" and Econ PhD, either he is no such thing or he knows better and lies about it.

    Any economist will tell you that the tax load on the top 1% is no where near the tax load on blue collar to mid- middle class income. Period. End. Of. Story.

    That assumes that said economist knows a fucking thing about tax structure – possibly important to said job. So, liar, what do you actually do for a living? Or do you?

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