And on a serious note, AIG is still a sinkhole for money, the worldwide markets have crashed, and the DOW is below 7000.
This is not ending any time soon.
*** Update ***
In truth, class warfare is what the Reagan Era gave us: thirty years of tax breaks for the wealthy at the expense of the common weal, thirty years of lax regulations which enabled the bankers to strip-mine the savings of average Americans while reaping huge rewards in Ponzi schemes, like the micro-dividing of mortgage assets that were really debits. Once again, I’m not sure Obama’s proposals will work–some will surely be more successful than others, there’s a good chance that rather than being too bold, he isn’t being bold enough–but I am absolutely certain where the continuation, or augmentation, of Reagan-Bush policies would leave us: even worse off than we are now.
Joe Klein. You know, Klein gets a lot of grief for things he has said in the past, and I am not saying that grief is undeserved. He was as stupid and pernicious at some stages as I was when I was in full wingnut mode. But these days, at least since the campaign last year, Klein has consistently been one of the most interesting and reality-based pundits out there. I think for the time being, I am retiring the snotty moniker “Jokeline.”
Comrade Stuck
Was just listening to Buchanan wimper about how democrats have declared war on the "Conservative Movement" (with particular reference to the cap and trade thing) and I thought, ’bout fucking time.
sgwhiteinfla
John Cole
Just wait a day or two. Klein will contribute another "Villager" post and the Joke Line moniker will be deserved once again.
joe from Lowell
Joe Klein is one of the few big media figures who has genuinely engaged with and learned from the online community.
Certainly, he has a Villager mindset. We all have our mindsets, though. What’s important is a willingness to grow.
Comrade Mary, Would-Be Minion Of Bad Horse
I can’t remember any full-fledged recent "Villager" columns from Klein. You can probably dig up a dumb comment or three, of course, but I think he’s been much less accepting of the received wisdom over the past few months.
Joel
Did John ever really dig down into his journey (if you forgive the word!) from ‘full wingnut mode’ to one of the sharpest bloggers on the net?
I searched a bit, but didn’t find … LInk?
Stooleo
I think Joe really started to wake up after he started blogging and began reading the comments to his posts. The scorn and derision contained within must have been a real eye opener. To his credit he took all that criticism and became a (somewhat) better journalist. Now, if only, Sullivan allowed comments on his blog.
BEN
ben ava
(sorry, my toddler wanted to contribute)
John Cole
@Stooleo: You can not downplay how important the comments sections are.
The Other Steve
He had to be beat with a pogo stick to get there, but yeah… he did start reading the comments.
The Other Steve
Where is AIG blowing this money? They claim they lost $60 billion this last quarter. Where? Employee salaries?
Or are they paying out claims on credit default swaps?
sgwhiteinfla
Comrade Mary
Here you go.
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/02/24/state-of-the-union/
Its a twofer. First he promotes fellow villager David Brooks and second he says this of liberalism
Perfectablility of the human condition, heh
gnomedad
I seem to recall a number of people projecting 7000 as the bottom. We shall see.
Joyomama
If only Tapper READ the comments on his blog; if I attracted as much wingnut admiration as he does, I’d be worried. But he’s so busy challenging Gibbs it wouldn’t occur to him to challenge his own commenters.
John Cole
Unless I am misunderstanding things, if the CDO defaults were a game of musical chairs, AIG is the company designated to not have a chair. I think they insured everything. The buck stops… there.
Atanarjuat
I agree that the worldwide economic crisis is very worrisome and we should all pull together as Americans and citizens of the world to find solutions to get us out of this deepening hole.
Instead, we see spitballing, leftist partisans who desperately and deceivingly attempt to place a radio personality as the leader of all conservatives in an effort to diminish the loyal opposition. And, of course, the gleeful focus on fringe groups such as the "Birthers," who believe that President Barack Obama is not an American citizen.
It just never ends with you liberals, does it? The nation is reeling and could soon collapse to the mat, down for the count and perhaps unable to get up again, and what do all you Obama Juicers do? See an opportunity to kick your ideological enemies in the teeth while doing your delusional Snoopy happy dance. I don’t see why this is constructive behavior or how it will help America stop its slide into oblivion, but then again I’m not a leftist who puts ideology above the well-being of the entire country.
At this point, I’d say all of you should be ashamed, but that would require you to have morals, of which you are completely bereft, so it’s a pointless admonition.
I fear that the country has to suffer a lot more before some of you wake up to the fact that we’re all in this together. Goddamn you all.
-Country First
Cat Lady
I don’t know how much Joe’s honestly addressed his FISA cock up, but I think his blogging helped him come to a personal understanding of the word "wanker".
Phil
Congratulations John, your party is now the party of annual multi-trillion dollar deficits
and the party of earmarks
Remember the things you used to rightly deride? You now OWN them.
And since I saw in another of your posts that you’ve now registered as a Democrat (good for you John!), I’m more than happy to finally write you off as another liberal partisan hack blogger. I just didn’t want someone pretending to be a "conservative" to do any of the above in my name.
But since you’re a new-born liberal, we know what your new party stands for and we know why you, as a liberal hack, would defend it.
Enjoy the current popularity of your President John. I stress current, because George Bush and Jimmy Carter used to be be much more popular than your Savior is now. And that was many months further into their Administrations. Look how that turned out. Not so good, eh John?
The people will catch on to the looting that is being done to their country and the debts that their children will be forced to pay off. They’re more patient and fair than I am, but make no mistake about it, they will catch on.
And let it be said that you not only defended, but actively SUPPORTED those earmarks and deficits. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Don’t apologize to me, apologize to your future children someday John.
This is my last post on your blog. Feel free to throw up a snarky response, I won’t be here to read it. You’re dead to me John.
Fun fact: John will get to be one of the few people to be a 30 percent "dead ender" on both sides of the aisle!
John Cole
AWESOME. There is a P. Lukasiak siting in that Klein thread, to include comparisons of Obama with George Bush! Win!
TR
If there was ever any doubt that Atanarjuat was a spoof of a right-wing troll, that pair of lines should end all debate.
sgwhiteinfla
John Cole
Pluk is there all the time deriding Obama. I guess he is widely known here too but damn the guy is frikkin irritating!
Hey Phil, you do realize that 40% of those earmarks were from REPUBLICANS right? You also realize that all of them together are less than 2% of the omnibus bill right? What a dumbass.
ksmiami
No – Joe started to turn after he witnessed the Palindrome and saw it for what it was – a glorified Klan rally.
miss water whiskers
TR, agreed. Nice job, Antan. :)
Adrienne
@John Cole: That’s the basic jist of it, so you aren’t misunderstanding anything on that note.
EDIT: HA, wyldpirate. I beat you by mere seconds. //insert evil maniacal laugh track here//
WyldPirate
John Cole @14
That’s about the size of it. Except, due to "regulations", they didn’t have to have assets to back their risk, unlike the "insurance" side of their business.
It was all a big greedy Ponzi to take advantage of investors. The banks got the imprimateur of "safe" investments and AAA ratings and no one had the cash to back up the swindle.
Viola! Billions generated in fees and Joe Taxpayer left holding the bag of vapor dollars for the world’s investment houses.
The Grand Panjandrum
Here is my take on the mess created by insurers like AIG. I link to a Friday piece by Joe Nocera that has a pretty good explanation of the problems created by these thieving criminals.
South of I-10
@The Other Steve: This NYT article lays it out pretty clearly.
Comrade Stuck
@Phil:
Well, I guess that does that. Phil, you are one weird motherfucker. Now that you’ve quit Cole, what are you going to do with yourself. Maybe Rush can’t fit you in his silk britches.
*and thanks for sharing
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@The Other Steve:
I don’t believe you’re entitled to that information, little man.
/snark
phil
This is pretty funny, coming from the party of "whatever the question is, the answer is either bomb it or give it a tax cut."
a different phil
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
The Grand Panjandrum
@sgwhiteinfla: You missed his goodness during the primaries when he was on the Clinton bandwagon using he "data" to argue that Obama couldn’t win. Just go back to about May or June in the archives and have a little fun.
Napoleon
@The Other Steve:
I was thinking about this yesterday and that has to be it. More importantly, and I have seen no comment on this anywhere, if that is what they are doing it is likely a backdoor/under the radar method of intituting the original Paulsen plan (which was highly panned) to buy bad assets. There is a cood chance that deal is that if a claim is made AIG (ie the US Government) buys the bad asset to make good on the claim. Kind of like when you total a car.
Comrade Stuck
@phil:
That was quick, you must need a little more humiliation to get excited.
miss wild whiskers
Sorry, Joe Klein is still an asshat, in my book of forgiveness. I have no use for those with the influence of someone like Klein being this late to the game when those who figured this shit out years ago and have been trying to inform the public and sound the alarm ever since were getting called out as America-haters, dismissed and ridiculed just a few years ago — I remember that time as one when the Kleins of the world were still fence-sitting and really not that interested in facts vs. administration-fed bullshit. As far as I’m concerned, their sloth and laziness as journalists helped contribute to the problems we face now. Jumping on the bandwagon now that the truth is painfully obvious to all does not get it for me.
!slams book of forgiveness!
JGabriel
@Atanarjuat:
I’d respond to this calumny, but the nation is reeling, collapsing to the mat, down for the count – and, really, couldn’t you have gone for the more historically resonant "Nero fiddling while Rome burns" allusion rather than comparing America to the WWF? – and I must take the opportunity to kick my ideological enemies in the teeth while doing the Snoopy happy dance, taunting and reminding GOPer’s of all the things they used to say, like: "Elections have consequencse" and "You lost, get over it".
Mama didn’t raise no gracious winners here.
.
Garrigus Carraig
Not impressed with Klein’s changed tone. Maybe he’s just a front runner, just backs whoever’s ascendant at the time.
sgwhiteinfla
The Grand Panjandrum
No Thanks! The guy criticizes President Obama at every turn as it is, I don’t need any more of him in my life. Whats fucked up is if the subject doesn’t have anything to do with Obama he actually comes off as intelligent and reasonable. But I guess the primary never ended for some folks.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@John Cole:
And just to add to the fun, the whole mess was outside of any regulation or oversight. How many chairs are there? Are they red or blue? Are they big chairs or little chairs? Do the chairs even exist? No one knows. It’s madness.
Adrienne
That’s exactly what the Democrats are doing. It’s the REPUBLICANS who fresh out of ideas. After eight years, they want to serve up what? The same stale, reheated policy ideas that got us into this mess in the first place. Finally, Americans are removing the sheet from their eyes and the paradigm is shifting. The only people left on earth who have yet to grasp this are you, Phil, the 27%ers, and your leadership.
We didn’t do that. It’s the Republicans who refuse to separate themselves from Limbaugh. It’s CPAC – the CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL ACTION CONFERENCE that gave him a hearty reception and clapped furiously when he said, wait for it – "One thing we can all do is stop assuming that the way to beat [the Democrats] is with better policy ideas."
They don’t want a debate on policy – they just admitted as much. They just want to cling to an out of date, misplaced, and out of touch idealogy during the most serious economic downturn of our generation. They refuse to recognize that Americans wouldn’t hire them to run a lemonade stand, much less the Government. They don’t realize that it isn’t the fact that government doesn’t work – it’s that government doesn’t work when THEY are the people running it!
sgwhiteinfla
Garrigus
BINGO!
Comrade Darkness
We’re back to where we were before the bubble started. Not really a surprise. The question is simply: how severe an undershoot?
Mama didn’t raise no gracious winners here.
Especially when what we won is a historically proportioned shitpile and a shovel. Yay, our team…
miss wild whiskers
As a spoof, I give Antan high marks. What say the others? Cause it might be just me since I was never able to extend a practical joke to any length. I always gave everything away by laughing. So for me, it’s pretty good spoof.
Josh Hueco
Promises, promises.
The Grand Panjandrum
@sgwhiteinfla: Yeah. He is a PUMA’s PUMA as it were.
The Grand Panjandrum
@Garrigus Carraig: I believe his blog post should be in the category: Access. Access is all these guys live for. They have no real ability to dig and root around to find stories. They want access so an insider can whisper sweet nothings in their ear.
IOW I always remain skeptical of every word written by the Villagers. (Judy Miller comes to mind.)
Adrienne
We wouldn’t be kicking them if they’d just recognize that they lost and accept their fate with some class. Hell, we’d accept if they just laid there and realize that they lost the fight. Instead, they want to keep punching the winner insisting that despite the asswhoopin and consequent TKO that the Dems (led by a BLACK guy named Barack Hussein!!) laid on them they are the champs. We wouldn’t have to continue to show them WHO THE FUCK IS THE BOSS if they just read the writing on the wall.
If they would heed their own advice and realize that "Elections have Consequences." and Get. The. Fuck. Over. It. we’d leave them alone. I mean, it’s like picking on the kid with the helmet on the short bus which is usually wrong. But this kid with the helmet is mean as hell and stomps on your toes so it’s justified.
Comrade Stuck
@sgwhiteinfla:
He showed up here last March or April with a head full of shaky math and a declaration that America would never elect a black man. Our interactions went downhill from there.
grape_crush
Klein’s come a long way from:
But I think that it’s due less to the comments section than it is to the attacks aimed at him from the Commentary crowd. Klein was called an anti-Semite, and those scales dropped from his eyes quicker than you could say "Avigdor Lieberman".
.
And yes, Pluk still hasn’t come to terms with Obama’s win over The Best Politican Evah, a.k.a Hillary Clinton.
Adrienne
We didn’t win a shovel. Nope. Just the shitpile. On a 100+ degree day.
Ned R.
@Phil:
It’s a bit like John Galt hiding from the cruel world, except nobody will miss him.
KevOH
We would not be in this mess had Bill Clinton been able to keep it in his pants. So if any single thing is to blame for the mess we’re in, it’s Bill Clinton’s penis.
Though if this president gig works out for Obama, we may have to thank Bill Clinton’s penis for the next 50 years of prosperity. Because it took a president as shitty as Bush to overcome prejudice and get an intelligent accomplished black man elected.
kay
Someone in the Senate is holding up Austan Goolsbee’s confirmation. I wondered where Goolsbee was in all this, and why we hadn’t heard from him.
Bloomberg asked who was holding up confirmation:
"The Senate’s Republican leader, Kentucky’s Mitch McConnell, declined to respond when asked about Goolsbee and Rouse. His spokesman, Robert Steurer, also declined to comment."
Country First.
Paul L.
I thought electing Obama/Democrats would reverse the "failed" Bush policies.
I saw a rerun of SNL with Will Farrell as George W. Bush.
Looks like Obama has the same gift, any chance SNL will make the same joke about him?
Michael
Frankly, I want names of every company and individual who received CDS payouts from AIG. I’d happily participate in protests in front of companies and homes in gated communities.
The "its just business" excuse will inevitably come, but the fact is, they’ve ruined lives with their gambling.
When every commercial from the investment community makes it appear that they know best, that they’re trustworthy, that you should invest with them, I get enraged. They feigned knowledge, they put on a pretense of sobriety, they mimicked respectability. As a result of that, people who simply wanted to earn their living and who sought modest returns on their savings without major swings entrusted their savings to the Masters of the Universe.
Yesterday, my mother was crying because she’s coming up on 65 and can’t afford to retire – her savings are gone. Her job (at a nonprofit foundation) may be gone soon, although she thinks it’ll hold out long enough for her to receive Medicare. She’s also worried about the security of Dad’s pension, as well as about the extent of equity in their home.
miss wild whiskers
Why the panic about deficits now? Other than to waste time. Obama did not create this problem and it lies specifically in the laps of a republican run Congress and presidency over 8 years. Our credit is maxed around the world out anyways and he had nothing to do with it. What a shameless, pathetic was of the people’s time. They can sit down, STFU and take their lumps.
I know, of course they won’t. And it’s to our advantage.
liberal
@The Other Steve:
Yeah, that’s what I want to know.
Mostly I’m thinking, "why the f*ck should I as a taxpayer bail out the counterparties." But then there’s the claim that the counterparties are foreign banks, etc, people we don’t want to piss off.
At least, however, there should be an accounting of where the goddamn $$ is going.
kay
“It’s frustrating,” said Christina Romer, who heads the three-member CEA. “These are hard economic times and we desperately want to get them through the Senate and definitely on the job.”
“They are both superb economists,” she said. “I can’t imagine what the holdup is.”
Really? I can.
Brick Oven Bill
On December 27th, 2007, the Dow Jones Industrial Average was around 13,500. Submitted for the record.
liberal
@Napoleon:
Yeah, that’s what I’ve heard.
Still sucks.
miss wild whiskers
Michael, while republican continue to crow about deficits. This is the tragedy what has become of political leadership. As I was stating earlier, these painful realities seem to be forgotten on Meet the Press because they can’t seem to give enough time to the deficit spending obsessions and injecting fears of socialism and becoming like Europe (why is that a bad thing compared to what we have now which is a rapidly-disappearing, decayed piece of Reagan wedding cake). While people all around suffer as your mother does now. It is morally wrong.
John Cole
I am not sure I can go on without Phil.
Ejoiner
Funny, insightful and offensive all at the same time!
I tip my hat to you, Adrienne and thanks for the laugh.
WyldPirate
Paul [email protected]54:
Ya know, for someone I admired for digging out all the National Guard stuff on Bush, at this point in the game, your comment above is pretty fucking stupid given the time frame.
JudasIscariot
@Atanarjuat: Damn, you are making me feel a bit guilty ( and my toes are gettin’ a bit sore from doing pirouettes on the grave of conservative America). Let me make it up to ya by sendin’ ya my special cook book chock full of recipes for gettin’ thru the (financial) end times: delightful recipes utilizing stray cats and dogs; unwanted pets like gerbil and hamster; common household pests like rat and ant, and for when times get real lean, my special pot roast recipe for long pig ( as a bonus I know you’ll appreciate, I have a section on why vegetarians, often liberal leftists, not only taste the best, but are generally far easier to capture and kill).
The Grand Panjandrum
If bailing out AIG is in part to protect the world financial system, then why are the American taxpayers the only ones footing the bill? Shouldn’t some of our wealthier allies be chipping in to save the same markets? Many of the CDSwere purchased by foreign companies.
JGabriel
@Brick Oven Bill:
DJIA, Jan. 19, 2001 – $10,587.59
DJIA, Nov. 3, 2008 – $9319.83
Suck it, BOB. Bush fucked it all up.
.
Montysano
Sweet jabbering Jeebus, it just gets better and better. The GOP is searching in vain for An Idea, well ol’ Newt’s got one: modernize the air traffic control system by using satellites and frickin’ lasers.
Via Sullivan:
valdivia
The Frontline special a couple of weeks ago had a good explanation about why AIG cannot fail. If AIG goes down so do all the major banks int he US and pretty much the whole world financial system. So yeah it sucks we have to pour the money down that drain but no AIG, no banking system. And for the idiot trolls–it is because the AIG loan that the market is reacting this way. It is one more sign that what all these financial wizards are holding are assets that are sheer pile of s****.
BethanyAnne
Given that pluk is bothering to comment here, let me just say that my overwhelming support for Obama did *not* mean that I thought that he could fix things quickly. I know you thought we all were starry-eyed groupies, but you were wrong on that, just like you were wrong on his electoral chances. Actually, now that I think about it, you are pretty reliable in that regard. Keep up the good work.
Adrienne
So electing Obama and Democrats were supposed to stop the slide that was nearly 30 years in the making overnight? If you thought that is why we voted for him, you are delusional. This is Bush’s collapse and EVERYONE except the 27%ers understand this very basic idea: Obama inherited these issues. The economy started sinking in DECEMBER 2007.
Michael
I would just like to point out that the amount of money that AIG is slurping from the trough and divvying out to counterparties is greater than the annual tax revenue of every state on the West Coast (including California), as well as the states in the Rockies.
argh
He was as stupid and pernicious at some stages as I was when I was in full wingnut mode.
A leopard doesn’t change its spots. Phooey on reconstructing Mr. Klein.
Oh wait … isn’t Klein a member of the new American aristocracy? Why then, let’s search for reasons to forgive our good Royal. Certainly no one with status must ever be accountable by mere commoners, so We the Worshipers must polish the turd so he may recirculate.
Or, instead of smooching tired traitor-butt, why not go find some new voices? The answer is why our nation is in its death-spiral.
Fools or Tools … who knows?
JGabriel
But how many Jesus Dollars is it?
.
miss wild whiskers
I rejected establishment media altogether about 5 years ago. People like Joe Klein are irrelevant to me. I’m not saying that is for everybody. Somebody has to monitor them and I’m sure if I read them I would learn a thing or two now and then but I just don’t feel like picking through mounds of horseshit for the odd, random factoid. For me it is exhausting (all hail to progressive bloggers).
Atanarjuat
The reason why Obama and his hand-picked flunkies can’t reverse the downward economic slide is searingly obvious: the Porkulus Ponzi schemes advanced by the Great Redistributionist are ADDING to the problem, not alleviating it.
Also, declaring war on investors, entrepreneurs, and businesses is having a predictable effect on financial markets. Thanks a lot for inflicting such economic misery on us, leftists. It’s the only way you can cling to power, but I suspect the American people won’t long tolerate this shell game you’re offering.
-A
bootlegger
@John Cole: Glenzilla on this topic.
kay
@Atanarjuat:
Larry Kudlow isn’t credible.
Adrienne
@Ejoiner: I try my very best. Yes I do.
I’m serious though. The Republicans have relegated themselves to being the mean kid with a helmet. We try to steer them in the right direction, we try to work with them so they can dust themselves off and BE somebody, and all we get are toe stomps. I say fuck it. Let’s point and laugh while they bang their head against brick walls. They deserve it.
TenguPhule
Irony of the Day.
The Moar You Know
@gnomedad: Roubini says 6000. So far Roubini has been dead-on accurate.
Adrienne
Oh give me a fucking break. Anything that we do short of backing a dumptruck full of cash to every single door south of Fulton Nassau station in the Financial District will have a "negative" effect on financial markets. We can’t base everything we do on how the stock market reacts to it. In the end, once we get this thing going, the stock market will recover. But, in the short term, what makes the market jump is not necessarily what’s gonna make this economy jump. Their interests and the larger economy’s interests are NOT NOT NOT synonymous.
Michael
@Atanarjuat
Ah, there’s more of that fake conservolove for productive enterprise.
Admit what you’re really about – magnifying the top end of the status quo at the expense of everybody else. Let the indolent inheritors of wealth, the recipients of legacy educations and connections reap all the reward for the work that others do, merely for applying some capital.
Your economic heroes are inheriting nutbags like Hunt, criminal fraudsters like DeVos, connections toadies like Prince.
Your world is vile – you condemn my family and my children to zero choices due to directions that your masters take, all while pretending that stuffing even more wealth and uncheckable political power into the pockets of the filth you worship is somehow emblematic of freedom.
Screw you and the undeclared aristocracy you carry water for.
TenguPhule
And it has nothing to do whatsoever that all of the pieces of Big Shitpile are oozing out of the sandwiches that banks and AIG want us taxpayers to eat.
gwangung
What’s declaring war on entrepreneurs is the damn health care system.
The jury-rigged systems we have is biased for BIG companies and AGAINST smaller, innovative companies.
TenguPhule
Do you not keep up with the news?
Everybody else and their brother are dumping shitloads of cash into their local markets.
It isn’t helping much.
miss wild whiskers
You’re welcome! :)
Adrienne
@gwangung:
Exactly. Remember that Big Business was instrumental in defeating universal healthcare.
bootlegger
@Atanarjuat: Anyone who sells stock right now deserves the derision of the ages Attanut. The stock market is run by the people that produced this mess, if they are panicked then we must be doing something right.
TR
Unless you’re trying to score some really good coke. Then he’s the man to ask.
Comrade Kevin
@John Cole:
I’m sure you’ll be able to tough it out.
Brick Oven Bill
So here I am, sitting at Panera Bread, awaiting the government man so that I can pitch my wares, and hopefully get a piece of Uncle Sugar. My idea is very good. The government representative is late. I am not used to business associates being late.
jg
Who’s Phil? Does he post here? I don’t remember reading anything by him for the few years I’ve been hanging out here.
Sinister eyebrow
As far as AIG is concerned, the administration basically has the wolf by the ears–can’t hold on, can’t let go. If AIG goes down, it will be catastrophic and will bring down all the big banks here and many elsewhere. No amount of stimulus will stop the train wreck if that happens. But again, pouring money into AIG is a bottomless pit. I don’t see a good solution at the epicenter of the crisis.
Brick Oven Bill
This is the second time I have sat here and waited, drinking my coffee, for the government man. Last time he had left a message on my landline ahead of the meeting, to cancel, which I did not get. I wonder if the same thing happened this time.
But there is several inches of snow on the ground, and there were announcements about government closures that went to minute :39 into a radio show that I like to listen to that starts at minute :34. Perhaps he is a ‘non-essential’ person.
I do start to feel silly walking around the cashier with my drawings. The government man has been directed to look for a ‘tall guy at who will be waiting near the cashier with a set of plans’. I do another round every time a business-looking guy walks in the door. I believe that the cashier now is beginning to worry about me. Her name is Brittany, and she is very pretty.
mandarama, Eager Minion
Well! I thought he’d never leave!
::looking around:: Now who is going to clean that off the floor?
AhabTRuler
I’m gonna miss Phil and his interesting and informative comments…about pie!!!
Ned R.
Fellow I know on another message board came up with this LOL comparison:
bootlegger
@Brick Oven Bill: Did you show her your brick oven? That may explain the worry.
MH
With the proviso that, like a 68-year-old grandfather in this economy, it can be pulled from retirement and re-employed.
Comrade Darkness
@Brick Oven Bill, oh you devil . . . you’re just trying to make up for yesterday.
TenguPhule
Step 1: AIG executives executed for crimes against the people
Step 2: CDCs backed by AIG are declared null and void, AIG is then nationalized.
Step 3: All Major US Banks are nationalized, all management are purged in fire.
Step 4: White Collar Criminals become the new Slave Class.
Step 5: Profit!
Rainy
I think it ridiculous to give them 30 billion more dollars. I mean WTF, this is an insurance company, not a bank. If it’s too big to fail, then break it up. The country needs to start enforcing our anti-trust laws.
Brick Oven Bill
Brittney the cashier is now waiting in line herself, blonde pig tail flopped over her right shoulder. I caught her looking at me. This could be out of curiosity, worry, or admiration. I wonder what she is going to order.
Still no government man. The Dow is down 245.
frankdawg81
There are a couple of huge differnces between ol Jokey and you:
1) you have performed your mea culpas admirably. Noting that you were wrong & (more importantly) why. Without that there is no reason to trust this new found behavior – even a blind sow will occasionally find an acorn. Jokey has not offered either.
2) Size matters! His megaphone is much larger than yours. The damage he did is much deeper.
3) He owes his megaphone to the village elders, therefore he is much more likely to turn and kiss their perfumed hinneys when told to. I doubt you have much to lose by disagreeing with them or your loyal readers.
So Jokey does not get any sort of pass until he takes step 1 (after all admitting you have a problem is the first step in breaking an addiction!). And complete absolution would only follow some indication that 3 is less of a concern.
magisterludi
BOB- Dow 1300+ was totally crazy, given that the underlying value was already plummeting due to all the air-money created (you know those air- guitar virtuosos aren’t playing with real instruments, don’t you?).
Brick Oven Bill
Brittney ordered a sandwich to go and a pink beverage with ice. So much for admiration. Time to go back home and check the messages.
AhabTRuler
I think you have to view it as a continuum. Mr. Klein has moved out of the basement of "Even a blind squirrel…," zoomed past "Even a stopped clock…," to arrive at " In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King."
There is still much room for improvement, but WTF do you want? At the end of the day, he is still just a vending machine for Villager opinion.
Edit: Sometimes all he has is Lorna Doones.
Brian J
It may not be the solace others need, but it works for me: the grownups are now back in charge and have been since January 20. They will not be perfect, but they will be miles ahead of any alternatives. For no other reason, the chances of this turning around faster than it would on its own improve dramatically.
Brian J
Is there anyone tracking how the nationalization of AIG is going? And when can we expect the government to shed this asset, such as it is? It’s been a few months since the government assumed the majority of the company, and from what I gather, the process doesn’t happen overnight. But if for no other reason than scoring a public relations victory, the government should probably rid itself of this as fast as possible, if that’s even possible.
Montysano
@Brian J:
Has there been any talk of nationalizing AIG? Nationalizing the banks, yes. But unless I’m mistaken, the only strategy with AIG is keep dumping mo’ money.
AIG is the 6,000 lb. gorilla, too big to fail, the elephant in the room, too massive to be thrown under the bus, a slap in the face, and of course…… Great News!! for John McCain.
Wile E. Quixote
@Tenguphule
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Steeplejack
Agreed. What I see in Klein that I don’t see in most of the other pundits is at least some willingness to take a look around, maybe absorb something new and try to wrap his head around it. As opposed to David Brooks, say, who shuts his eyes and tries to wrap the world around whatever is in his head at the moment.
@Stooleo:
Amen to that. Sullivan claims that he gets a lot of feedback via e-mail and that he pays a lot of attention to it. But there is something about the public nature of comments–about not only getting the feedback but being seen to get the feedback–that is extremely valuable.
Brian J
@Montysano:
I guess that was the wrong word to use, since, as far as I know, we don’t have direct control over the company. What’s the right word, then? Sinkhole? Our government’s messed up family member who thinks get-rich-quick schemes are the way to financial stability?
@Wile E. Quixote:
I used to think talk of a populist rage building in this country was overstating things just a bit. It’s one thing to see someone in Starbucks shake her head at the front page of The Times as it described another bailout. It’s quite another to see someone like Bill Maher talk about shooting the heads of the financial firms so casually.
Also, even though I stopped watching the show regularly for a few reasons, some episodes of "The Simpsons" remind me of why it’s necessary to control the message to the public during a time of crisis. When Bart has free time on his hands because the teachers are on strike and he decides to cause a riot at a bank by announcing it’s out of money, it’s like watching what might happen if the banks were nationalized and the administration screwed up explaining what this entailed.
Steeplejack
@John Cole:
Yeah, that was my understanding from Joe Nocera’s excellent recap in the Times on Saturday.
Martin
Obama has taken your ideas to heart and replaced all government vehicles with tractors.
Tractors only go so fast, Bill. It’s the cost for a strong nation.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@Brian J:
As someone who likes to know things, who prefers to be informed…… I have no fucking idea. AIG appears to be a special case with its own set of rules. Although you and I have no avenue to know how much toxic crap AIG has, I’m betting that someone in BO’s administration knows, and that knowledge scared them shitless.
Steeplejack
@John Cole:
Buck up, man! Couldn’t you just try for a little while?
Anyway, his "This is my last post" threat lasted all of 12 minutes. He needs you more than you need him. Plus you’ve still got Brick Oven Bill and Atanarjuat. And didn’t TBogg or somebody give you a draft choice to be named later?
maya
While all you ruminate and roil over which way the stock market, (and, our capitalist economy along with it), is heading and who’s to blame – I’m talkin’ to you ,bob, I’ve been busy searching for the next biggest thing. And I found it:
It’s gonna be the commodity of the newly mangled 21st Century economy and its survivability.
I’m going long, way long, on Duct, or Duck, if you prefer, Tape futures. And lay off Rick Santelli. He’s my go-to guy for spicing, shredding and bundling the derivatives together that will allow for the necessary associated lucrative puts and calls hedge market that will reap me billions. Overnight!
OK, a day or two. At most.
Think about it. Duct tape is the only commodity which can repair our frayed infrastructure of table legs, bridges, military hardware, bike and car seats, as well as those presidential helicopters that have McCain so upset. It can pave us smoothly over all those humps and bumps when Obama’s, or Rush’s, plans fail. (What was Rush’s plan, anyway?) It can also be used to seal the mouths of the naysayers, act as a deterrent to waterboarding and when congress finally reaches across those aisles it will be Duct Tape that will wrap their hands in the new spirit of permanent bipartisanship.
And here’s the best part:
It’s the economic bubble that can’t burst because of its own unique flexibility to tape over its own cracks and seams as that bubble expands. And we know how much us capitalists can’t make it without our bubbles.
Time to wake up America! Let’s roll!
bootlegger
@maya: But I don’t think I can make a bong out of it. Patch my bong maybe.
Steeplejack
@Steeplejack:
Sorry, I shouldn’t have lumped in Brick Oven Bill with Atanarjuat. BOB is more of a garden gnome than a troll.
Brian J
Even if you have scattershot knowledge of how this stuff works, it’s not that hard to understand that not every company is the same, so some companies may require special treatment. This goes for companies overall and for companies within a certain industry.
If pumping money into AIG for the time being is the way to avoid a lot of pain, then so be it. I may not like it, but I can accept it. I just wish there were some clearer explanation for what lies at the end of all of this. It’s not that I expect the problem to be solved by the end of the year, that I believe it will be solved quickly when it can be dealt with, or that I am under the impression it’s possible to know for sure how much any problems in the future will cost.
Is it really that difficult to communicate just how long the government will be involved, directly or indirectly, with the company? Even as I learn more about this, I realize there’s a lot that I don’t know. But I find it hard to believe that this is so complex, the people dealing with it are not only in the dark, but have their hands tied behind their backs, bags over their heads, and bricks tied around their ankles. A very general answer would be better than what we’ve been given so far.
bootlegger
@Steeplejack:
Cute and weird as opposed to bitter and mean.
MNPundit
It’s not since the last year, it’s since he started blogging online.
When Joe Klein first started writing online with comments he was torn to pieces by the facts and figures of reality as his own readers challenged him with the truth. It took a few weeks but after that he started to change and ever since then he has become less and less someone who needs criticism and mockery.
I don’t think Joe Klein will ever be a "lefty blogger" but he’s become a honest pundit because of the internet.
Sinister eyebrow
I don’t know that there is a simple path to nationalization of AIG. It’s not a bank and I don’t think the FDIC can eat it (receivership) and then reprivatize. The bad-bet default swaps that are dragging AIG down are the toxic assets on the banks books. Bankrupting AIG would wipe out the banks in this country, and many others.
Like I said, I don’t understand what the outcome of this can be other than disaster. It seems the only option is propping it up until the rest of the system is brought back under control. No good solution, but letting it fail seems like a worse solution than propping it up.
Jay in Oregon
@Montysano:
If McCain had half a brain, he’d be thanking God that he doesn’t get to preside over this mess.
With his "plan" for fixing the economy, he’d probably be the first President to be dragged out of the White House and lynched. Instead, he gets to play the "maverick" for a little while longer.
Brian J
If all of the assets in question are worth something, then isn’t there something waiting for any involved parties at the end of the line?
TheHatOnMyCat
Just a slight tweak was necessary.
Napoleon
@Brian J:
?
Perry Como
Dow 6000 looks like the bottom. There’s a very good chance of an overshoot, but the natural support before the market bubble is around 6000. As to who is getting paid out by AIG (aka, tax payer money): Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Societe Generale SA, Deutsche Bank AG and Merrill Lynch & Co.
Tax payer money is paying out unregulated side bets. Hooray!
Mike in NC
Is there some way we can donate pennies to McCain so that he doesn’t have to give up one of his seven (?) McMansions in the coming Republican Depression?
Dennis-SGMM
Is it too much to hope for that the Commodity Futures Modernization Act and Gramm-Leach-Bliley are both repealed? Together, these two toxic measures are what enabled our economic meltdown.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@Mike in NC:
Happy to help.
Perry Como
Only if they are ass pennies.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@Dennis-SGMM:
If there’s been any talk of this, I’ve missed it. Like you, I would have expected this to be top-of-the-list. I guess there’s no hurry to fix the barn door if there are no horses inside.
What about leverage? Are the investment banks still technically allowed to leverage at 30:1?
Ned R.
@Steeplejack:
He’s very responsive in my experience. That Nixon on All in the Family clip he linked the other day? I was the one who called his attention to it, and within an hour he’d sent me a mail thanking me and saying he’d linked it up, and this was on a Sunday morning. So I’m willing to cut him some slack.
The Other Steve
He’s actually responded to my emails too.
The Other Steve
I thought 7,000 was thebottom. Before that 8,000.
I wish I’d listened to my own damn advice. Sold out at 14,000… bought back in in April 2009. I’d be really smart if I’d done what I told others to do.
Instead I sold out at 12,000, and bought back in when it dropped below 9,000.
Redhand
Klein’s comments are a perfect summary of the "Reagan Revolution" and its aftermath: "The rich get richer and the ‘middle class’ gets f*cked."
In the meantime, the defenders of this decades long scam–I think in particular of that disgusting hog Limbaugh, although there are many other candidates for stuck-pig-in-chief–evoke Stalin while the Obama Administration pours another $30B into a leaky bag called AIG.
We live in most depressing times.
Brian J
Hmm, perhaps that question was phrased in the wrong way. I guess what I’m asking is, these assets being discussed are actually worth something…right? I have to believe they are.
Napoleon
@Brian J:
Sure, they are almost certainly worth something. So what if they are? Where were you going with that?
Comrade Stuck
@maya:
As long as it keeps out terrorists, either will do. That is, unless your Duck is broke, and needs fixin’
Brian J
@Napoleon:
Well, if they are worth something, as I thought they were, then we aren’t really throwing money down a sinkhole, are we?
Napoleon
@Brian J:
It just means the sinkhole isn’t as deep and wide as it could be.
cyntax
@Brian J:
They’re probably worth something and although it’s not the most palatable action, it’s probably the best one for now.
But the $180 billion question is: how much are they worth?
BongCrosby
Steeplejack:
Every time I see his name, I think "A jar of nuts."
Chuck Butcher
AIG’s core businesses, standard insurance are in fine shape thanks to the rules governing insurance industry standards for risk to capital. The unregulated swaps, unregulated thanks to re-naming, are in huge trouble. It was bad enough when the housing bubble burst, which is a different thing from what is now happening and that is the people with mortagages they could cover going under because the economy is tanking.
Naturally as the Dow tanks some of AIG’s money is in that market and "going away." The ugly truth is that what we’ve plowed into banks is covering the stuff AIG didn’t and if the stuff AIG did cover goes under with AIG the sick banks become terminal and that takes everybody.
I don’t know if we wouldn’t be farther ahead to take AIG and bury it in the government, selling off the profitable pieces. The market keeps watching AIG and sweating bullets. They’re also watching the foreign markets and governments and shitting.
Here’s the scoop on the DOW, a contraction was going to happen but when the DOW is below levels before the balloon it is no longer looking at that. People bailing at this price aren’t looking at money, they’re looking for solid assets untied from a crash. There are, of course, those who shorted the market taking profits.
The Dow has now passed what is rational in reaction, if you are selling you have given up (minus the shorters). The question that now remains is how many will give up. At these kinds of levels expect the raiders to start moving. Mittens is smiling (in his sleeve, naturally). Let’s see who owns the country in a couple years.
Steeplejack
@cyntax:
I don’t think it’s any longer a question of how much AIG is worth. It’s sort of like, "Eh, the building is on fire, we can’t save it, we should just let it burn itself out–except that then it would take down the whole block with it." We’re pumping water on the AIG fire not so much to save AIG as to save (we hope) the rest of the financial infrastructure.
If you haven’t read it, check out the Joe Nocera piece in the Times that I and others linked to above. It’s eye-opening (and hair-raising).
Brick Oven Bill
The government man, because it was snowing, by my eye around 3-4 inches, took the day off. In case anyone was wondering.
No call, no show. Because of the snow, his cell phone is also off today. But tomorrow his cell phone will be on. So I’ve got that going for me.
If anybody has an extra couple hundred thousand dollars lying around, and wants to make a really good risk-reward wager, look me up. I am a much better investment than the stock market or anything from either New York City or Washington DC.
Martin
Oh, come on, how much can tin foil themostat covers cost, Bill?
Wile E. Quixote
Brick Oven Bill
Do we just leave the money on the dresser when we’re done?
Brick Oven Bill
I will accept it in the freezer Wile E. Quixote. You can trust me, by the way, I am not like the others.
Wile E. Quixote
So if I understand the rules for being listed on the NYSE correctly (IANABOSL) if a company spends 30 consecutive days with a value of less than $1.00 a share they risk getting a delisting notice from the Exchange. They then have six months to get their shit together otherwise they’re dropped from the Exchange. AIG dropped below $1.00 a share on February 9th and has been sliding since then. So are they going to get a delisting warning next week from the NYSE or is there something here that I’m missing?
Perry Como
It’s a tough market and it’s never good to try to catch a falling knife. I stopped trading when I got my ass handed to me trying to short the dotcom bubble. Since then I’ve invested in the market, but I pulled my money out when Greenspan started playing money games with interest rates post-bubble. I could have made a fair amount of money if I had stayed in, but I moved a lot of investments to precious metals instead.
Now I’m profit taking on PMs every time gold hits > $975 so I can build up cash for the inevitable market bottom. I don’t know if 6,000 is it, but that’s what I’ve been saying since September of last year (and looks like the right level historically), so I’ll start buying in at 6k again. I’m glad I’m a GenXer and not a Boomer. There are a lot of Boomers that are pretty fucked right now.
cyntax
@Steeplejack:
Oh, come on. The entire Western banking system–who needs that?
Jeebus, that was a hair-raising article. And makes Santelli, Greenspan, et al, look like even bigger pr!cks, which I hadn’t thought possible. So doubly informative.
dadanarchist
I think this is deserving of some mockery:
CalD
Go, Joe Klein! I’ve actually been swearing for years that class warfare in America is a very real thing. As a member of the middle class (such as it is, and for how much longer who knows) I can sure as hell attest that we’ve been under pretty much constant attack and loosing ground for the last few decades. If that ain’t war, what is it?
Wile E. Quixote
One thing sticks out from reading the article, part of the problem that AIG has is because they might get downgraded by Moody’s, which makes me wonder why anyone is listening to Moody’s or Standard and Poor’s anymore. The boneheads at the rating agencies were the ones taking huge pay-offs for sprinkling their AAA imprimatur over all of those toxic assets that are now dragging the system down, when are they going to get their asses handed to them? Why is any rating from Moody’s or S&P worth any more than a nasty brown shower these days?
Studly Pantload, Would Be Minion of John Cole
So . . . 6,000 is the new 8,000?
Chuck Butcher
@Studly Pantload, Would Be Minion of John Cole:
Since the current bottom is below realistic contraction and assets values there is no telling where this can go. If somebody says I’ll buy at 6K then they’ve set their bottom but that has nothing to do with people deciding an apocalypse is coming and covering up for that. At some point those with a lot are going to start their fire sale buying. Expect Mitt to be right there.
Catsy
I have to say, I’ve been deriving enormous enjoyment from the ongoing slow-motion implosion of the GOP, and all the infighting and near-pathological denial that results.
It’s not like it used to be, where I’d wrestle with whether or not to post criticism of their batshit insanity du jour, on the off-chance that some of them would actually take me seriously and stop doing the things that were hurting them, or keep doing the things that were hurting us.
It’s win-win now. The more marginalized they become, the harder to the right they tack, the more of the middle they lose, and the more unhinged and delusional they have to be in order to shore up the base they have left–and the more mock-worthy they become. The more we mock their detachment from reality, the more fiercely they cling to their debunked ideological shibboleths and try to convince themselves that we’re just jealous and afeared of their mighty conservativeness.
Most of the content on Redstate these days is even further into an alternate reality than the Turtledove books I’ve been reading. I honestly don’t know how some of them do it.
Comrade grumpy realist
Actually, the NYSE modified its "below $1 for 30 days and then you’re out" rule because so many stocks were getting swept up in its filter. I think the present "temporary" rule is "below $1 for 90 days and then you’re out."
Also, wouldn’t be so hard on the quants–I have no doubt but that whatever CDO was engineered had 15 pages of caveats and assumptions explained–which the guys in the front office simply ripped off, stamped "AAA" on their precious little bundle of dodgy debts, then sent it off to be sold by the marketers. *Everyone* wanted to believe that the financial engineers were able to take lumps of crud and combine them into gold….forgetting, that, as Wilmott pointed out: "in a market crash, all correlations go to one."
Brian J
Well, I can fully get behind the idea that we need to keep pouring water (or money) onto the fire (or AIG) in order to prevent the rest of the block (or financial system) from being destroyed. I’m sorry if this a stupid question, but assuming the CDOs are actually worth something, doesn’t it make sense for the government to be involved if it stands a chance of making money, in addition to preventing the collapse of the banking system? Or is this not the sort of instrument where much, if any, money can be made?
Steeplejack
@Brian J:
As the Nocera piece said, the government does own "just under 80 percent" of AIG now. So if there is "a chance of making money," we’re in. But I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Chuck Butcher
If the mess turns around properies will have value, whether it will cover this insured losses is real questionable. Right now AIG wants to sell off parts of itself, there just is no market for the pieces, and they make money. Nobody can finanace them.