We’ve already seen two Washington Post reporters write in favor of a revote in Minnesota. Now Rasumssen is out with a small sample poll in which a small plurality favors revote and the Politico is already pimping it:
But when asked whether there should be another election to determine — a prospect raised by Coleman and his lawyers — respondents were receptive to the idea. A 46 percent plurality of voters think there should be another election, while 44 percent disagree.
Josh Marshall believes the Republican endgame here is to filibuster Franken after he is certified and then push for a revote:
I’ve been picking up word that Republicans on the Hill genuinely think Norm Coleman is going to get the results of the November elections tossed and have a revote. And if not genuinely, that they’ve all convinced themselves to say they believe it. As I told one friend who passed word on to me about this, the Coleman people must be smoking some powerful weed. Because nothing that has happened in the trial gives the remotest indication that anything like that will happen. Indeed, there’s simply no basis in Minnesota law for throwing out the results of an election. To be clear, I think it’s highly unlikely that the Court will come down with a judgment that will make it possible to Coleman to reclaim his seat. There’s just no indication of that. But while that’s very unlikely, actually throwing out the results entirely isn’t even on the menu of options the judges have before them.
Now, here’s one thing to consider. Are the Republicans trying to lay the groundwork for filibustering any effort to seat Franken, even after the state of Minnesota tells Norm it’s over and he has to go home? Keep an eye out for it.
Look for Scherer, Ambinder, and Halperin to start pushing the revote meme over the next couple weeks.
Update: This is funny from Ed Morrissey:
The contest panel has two choices for a rational resolution. The first would be to reject the recount and revert back to the Election Night results and then proceed with the absentee ballot challenges before it now. That would also, though, create an inconsistent treatment for those voters who legitimately had their absentee ballots counted during the recount. The other is a special election runoff between Al Franken and Norm Coleman, which would settle the matter on the most legitimate of ground: the will of the Minnesota electorate.
You, reader, have two choices as well: Norm Coleman, great Senator or greatest Senator ever.
gwangung
Oh, yeah. States’ rights forever.
Keith
It’s scary what the future would be like if this attempt worked. Can you imagine national parties throwing major money into election challenges just to increase the number of votes the opposition needs? Who needs a warm body filling a seat when the empty seat works almost as well (apologies to the seat in Coleman’s case)?
DougJ
I sure can.
demkat620
Yeah, I love how the WAPO’s only justification is basically, "Shut up, that’s why."
What does the election law say?
colin k
And who’s the first concerned citizen of the cable chorus who insists that the state of Minnesota is in danger of losing its integrity if they don’t move forward with this re-vote idea?
My money’s on Matthews.
gypsy howell
One question: in today’s climate, with Obama’s ratings so high and Democrats in general doing better than Republicans in approval polls, is Coleman likely to actually WIN in a revote?
Seems like he’s more likely to get trounced. But I suppose holding off the inevitable is the only game the ®s have left these days.
gbear
No No No No No. Ain’t gonna happen. When the court makes it’s decision, 98% of MN-tans are going to tell the senate, the media, and rest of the country to STFU!!!!i!!
Trust me.
pattonbt
This is why I hate the Republican party. Its the hypocrisy. How can I ever be expected to support a party that I know when it suits them they will swear day is night and night is day, stuff their fingers in their ears and go la la la la la until anyone who questions them gives up and walks away.
Dont get me wrong, the Dems arent perfect, but at least they try.
And Franken will get seated, there wil be no re-vote. This will just go down as another idiot move by the Rush party. The strategy will sell well to the Village and 28%ers but will, like with everything they have touched, fail hard with the majority. Keep it up Reps, the loser train isnt full yet.
What I love is how quiet and confident Franken, and the Dems, have been through this. Patient and respectful of the process. They know they have four aces and Coleman has a pair of 2’s. Just let it play out and win.
Punchy
Yes, and when they revote, and it’s just as close as before, Coleman can sue again, lather, rinse, repeat.
This would send a precedent so ugly I cannot imagine.
El Cid
What the mother fucking fuck? We don’t get a god-damn do-over when the Supreme Fucking Court blocks the god-damn recount in Florida so as to coronate the retarded frat-boy clone version of Ronald Reagan, but we’ve got to keep Al Franken out of office because he fucking won? Eat shit and die, Republitards, and your stupid ass, failing newspaper enablers.
Punchy
By the way….you can filly a SENATOR?? Has this ever been attempted before? That sounds insane. What stops 41 R’s from fillying all the new Dems, at least in theory?
sgwhiteinfla
DougJ
Its going to be so transparent if Scherer does it because I don’t think he has had even one post on the Minnesota recount since it began but I will definitely be on the look out. Also Greg Sargent had another takedown of Rasmussen’s right wing slant this morning.
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/political-media/still-more-slanted-polling-presentations-from-rasmussen/
The Other Steve
I’m with gbear on this.
Our court system here is pretty non-partisan, so the judges will follow the law. It’s unlikely that Coleman’s arguments sway much, as judges aren’t stupid. They acknowledge that any election is going to have some problems. It’s only if there is widespread problems or blatant abuse that they’d start turning things over.
So coleman loses case… franken wins.
Nobody in Minnesota gets upset, but they will be upset if a bunch of out of staters try to tell us what to do. This is a very dangerous strategy for the Republicans.
Napoleon
There is no doubt in my mind that the Republicans will never allow Franken to be seated regardless of what it will take to keep it from happening and if they can do it by filibuster that is what they will do.
DougJ
@sgw
Yeah, I saw Sargent’s take down of Rasmussen.
Rick Taylor
When Coleman was originally in the lead, I remember him saying something along the lines of, if he were in Franken’s shoes he’d step down so as not to prolong the process. Does anyone have a link to the quote?
TheOfficialHatOnMyCat
Okay, the bridges fall down, they can’t settle a simple election.
One more strike, and they’re out.
Wait … Jesse Ventura.
Okay, that’s it. MN is part of Canada.
Oh, and they have the worst MLB baseball park in the history of the game.
Good.Bye.
Gus
I’m not too worried about it. Coleman wouldn’t stand a chance in a revote. Franken wasn’t a strong candidate, but this petulant play would doom Norm.
DougJ
This is what I believe as well.
Napoleon
It does not provide for a revote.
Tonal Crow
We won, they lost, the verdict’s coming, and that’ll be all she wrote. These motherGOPers want as many do-overs as they need to overturn the voters’ will. That’s not how it works.
As for those who are pimping this do-over crap, I have to ask one question: "Why do you hate America?"
Gus
Is that supposed to be punishment?
gbear
Jesse was a foul.
Actually, Jesse wasn’t all that bad at first but he couldn’t keep his ego out of it for the second two years.
edit: Plus what Gus said. Also.
Rick Taylor
@Napoleon:
By now I’m cynical enough I wouldn’t be at all surprised. It will be interesting to see what happens.
sgwhiteinfla
There is one problem with a filibuster of Franken, the people of MN won’t be having that nor will the nation if you ask me. If he gets certified and the Republicans threaten a filibuster, first I hope Reid calls their bluff but I don’t have a lot of faith in that, but second independent voters are going to see that as voter disenfranchisement and the GOP is going to catch hell behind it next year. Can’t you just imagine the attack ads now?
Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s
To end the argument simply state:
If after 8 years of Norm Coleman as their Senator, the voters of Minnesota still couldn’t give him a resounding victory…let alone a victory…shows you how the voters feel about Norm Coleman.
gbear
@Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s:
It’s actually only been six years. It just feels like eight.
Davis X. Machina
I’m so old, I remember when counting and counting the ballots until you get the result you want was a bad thing, that Democrats were supposed to have done.
Oh, wait. I’m 50, not 8….
Tymannosourus
@TheOfficialHatOnMyCat:
Well, we have a new ball park now, so there.
John Cole
Ed Morrisey is a shameless hack. He sold out for wingnut loot.
Dennis-SGMM
From Article I, Section 5 of the Constitution:
There’s nothing to filibuster. It would require a vote by the full Senate to deny Franken the seat should the courts at long last decide that he won the election.
gbear
My brain hurts.
The Populist
Wait, wait, wait…aren’t these the fucks that whined that Gore should concede instead of drag the hanging chad thing on too long?
So these fucks like to talk the talk but when it means losing an election they act worse than the side they are whining about?
Wow. Can somebody slap a Conservative and tell them what lousy losers they are?
Face
I, too, am intrigued by this filibuster idea.
The Populist
Yet you guys have an open air stadium in a city that can either be deathly humid during the summer and cold to downright snowy in the fall and spring months.
Makes sense to me!
VOR
I don’t think anyone has found anything in Minnesota Law which provides for a revote.
So are left with judges legislating from the bench? I thought that was bad. Strict word of the law, right? Or is there a special provision when a Republican loses the election?
The Populist
My thought exactly. If Franken is this evil, commie pinko lib we should all fear, why didn’t the citizens of Minnesota re-elect Coleman by a wide margin?
pattonbt
@DougJ:
You really believe the R’s would go that far and fillibuster his seating? I know theyre nuts, childish, spirteful and moronic, but even I dont think they would go that far. They blowback would be huge.
They just dont get that their usual ploys do not work in tough times. No one wants games right now, they want adults. I cant see how any sane R could think such a course of action would be wise (granted I cant think of many sane or wise ones left).
I dont doubt they will bluster this thing up as much as they can, but it will end just like everything else for them the last 2 years – they will fold spectacularly and be laughed at by 70% of the country and pushed further into irrelevance.
The Populist
Agreed…let them filibuster like little whiny assholes. The next time one of them cries foul we will have tons of ammunition to shout at them with. If Franken wins via courts, fuck you righties…you pulled a fast one with Bush and set a precedent. Let’s hope they do put him in and the righties in the Senate filibuster. I can see average Americans rolling their eyes at yet another obstruction by Senate GOP members. I mean, think about it, if the right want to make this an issue, I’d be out there asking why these dumbasses care about a legit Senator-elect being denied a seat when they should be out working to make the economy better.
Yep, the right sure are dumb idiots.
TheOfficialHatOnMyCat
@Tymannosourus:
Cool, I just looked at some pix. Great news for baseball fans up there.
Tara the antisocial social worker
So, this poll found 46-44 in favor of a revote? But how many of the poll votes were invalid? Were they counted correctly? Was ACORN involved? Did any lizard people vote?
Clearly grounds for a re-poll.
The Populist
Patton,
These people aren’t sane. They have shown time and time again the only people they care about are themselves. They care about winning so they can reward their cronies and the super-rich. That’s it.
Tymannosourus
@The Populist:
Humid, sure, deathly humid… you might be thinking of St. Louis. Besides, would you ever advocate closing the roof on a summer baseball game because of humidity? If so, I would suggest you just go to a movie theater or something. As far as the early season snow/cold, yeah that happens, but that’s upper midwest living, son!
TheOfficialHatOnMyCat
@The Populist:
Anything is better than the misshapen warehouse they are playing in now. And I have been in Minneapolis in the summer when the weather was just beautiful. Being locked up in that indoor monstrosity on a day like that is just pure torture.
The Populist
What bothers me is that Minnesota is shedding jobs as quickly as other states yet the right want to drag out the Senate election. Seems to me that the poll is wrong only because sane people would see this as a waste of time and stalling tactics by Coleman and the GOP. If I was living in MN, lost my job and saw this nonsense go on endlessly, I’d be mighty pissed. It shows me that the GOP and Coleman don’t give two shits about Minnesota or her citizens.
Chuck Butcher
Within a fairly narrow set of Federal regs, states elect Senators. The Senate can make character judgement, not likely. The Senate cannot move outside recognized law, in this case State law. Proper credentials are proper credentials. Republicans can be idiots, but such sword would cut both directions and also be a media storm of unprecedented fury.
If they try to take this to Federal Court I expect them to get smacked pretty toot-sweet. As best I can tell, MN election law exceeds Federal law in its requirements for fairness and once the state decides, there is no Federal issue. Coleman’s lawyers would have to find a Federal issue to hang their hat on and none exists if MN is at least in compliance with Fed election law.
This isn’t FL 2000 and MN law has been scrupulously observed, Coleman’s margin of victory/built in error issue will not work, the mechanisms have been observed and that is what counts, not whether they are not infallible. I’m not a judge/lawyer, but it looks like he’s lost the recount argument and will lose in this court. I wouldn’t be surprised to see an appeal to MN Supremes denied as moot. For two reasons, one the count is done and two their Supremes don’t want to be second judged by Feds.
pattonbt
@The Populist:
"The next time one of them cries foul we will have tons of ammunition to shout at them with"
As much as I love that sentiment, it just doesnt matter anymore. There already is enough ammo out there on every R platform to show fail and hypocrisy. They just simply smile, give a non answer, pout, stomp their feet and the Village lets them keep on going. No harm no foul. The Village loves the game, they dont care about the consequences.
There is no way to hold them to any responsibility or fairness, it means nothing to them. They are about winning and money and they will say whatever they need to to get both. And no one (on the inside) will hold them to account.
The Populist
LOL, good points. I just got back from super hot weather watching spring baseball in Phoenix. Good times.
I just wonder why the city/state/team didn’t insist on a retractable roof like the one they have in Seattle or Milwaukee (they have one right?).
The Populist
Patton,
Good point. Maybe now people will see their true colors and finally make them pay. One can hope, right?
Tymannosourus
I think the tightness of this race reflects most of our dissatisfaction with Franken as a candidate for Senate. If it were a strong MN democrat this race wouldn’t have been close.
Instead it was a choice between Bush’s lackey and a carpet-bagger comedian. And the enthusiasm for either is making itself evident right now.
The Populist
You guys have sold me. The reason I commented is because, as a baseball fan, I couldn’t understand a baseball park without a retractable roof in Minnesota!
gbear
That ain’t the half of it. It’s also Right. Next. Door. to a huge garbage burning facility. It’s going to stink when the wind is wrong.
Sorry Tymannosourus (@29), that new stadium (just like the old stadium) was a bad idea. Major sports in MN = money + stupid.
The Populist
LOL, aren’t they both carpetbaggers? To me, Franken at least seems the reasonable 1 term solution.
Dennis-SGMM
OT: Heard on NPR that home foreclosures are spiking due to job losses in areas that weren’t hotbeds of alternative mortgages. One of the states mentioned was Louisiana. Wonder how they feel down there now about Jindal’s threat to refuse additional unemployment insurance funding.
Tymannosourus
@The Populist:
That would have been great. Indeed, Milwuakee’s park is top notch, but it was entirely a money issue for the legislature. I think they said a retractable roof would have tacked on an extra couple hundred million or something like that.
jwb
I don’t think it will come to a filibuster because if the GOP tries it, the Dems will use that as the excuse to go nuclear. As it stands, the Dems are basically looking for a good opportunity to get rid of it, since it’s clear that the GOP has decided that they are going to make every piece of business require 60 votes. To choose the filibuster option would be a gift, as I think We the People would at that point say "shoot the elephant already,"
Tymannosourus
Yes, yes, absolutely… I think most people don’t view it that way since he was St. Paul’s mayor a time ago. And, you know, because he brought hockey back… which is more important than statesmanship.
theturtlemoves
@TheOfficialHatOnMyCat: Yeah, that is an improvement. I personally have never been a baseball fan and attending a game in the Metrodome certainly didn’t help matters. A freezing cold outdoor game in Kansas City was ten times more enjoyable than watching baseball in that giant freaking warehouse in Minneapolis.
DougJ
I think they’ll probably do it and that the blowback won’t be that huge. Their hacks will go on tv and say that the voters are getting robbed, that ACORN stole the election and so on. Cokie will agree with them.
Surreal American
This link precisely sums up my response to Team Coleman and their media enablers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4
TheOfficialHatOnMyCat
@Tymannosourus:
It is expensive to do the retractable roof thing. But it can be done right. Our ballpark here in Phoenix looks fugly on the outside, but when you walk and in sit down, it is one of the most pleasant and comfortable baseball parks you’ve ever seen, roof open or closed.
But that Humphreydome thing is really awful. I don’t know what is wrong with it, but it is not made for baseball. I have never seen a football game in there though, maybe it works for that sport.
pattonbt
@The Populist:
I hope every day, but being a cynic I dont expect it to come to fruition.
One thing I have hope for is the rise of the blogs and net. There are now credible and widely available places where the Village and insiders spin can be dissected – and with facts. The Village is slowly, but surely, getting its ass handed it to them by realists.
The more hateful and failurific platforms of all the parties are getting much broader exposure and defenders are getting pushed more and more to the fringes.
Theres still a long way to go and it will never be perfect (we are humans after all and I know I have some irrational beliefs) but I do ssee ome small silver lining forming.
Tymannosourus
@TheOfficialHatOnMyCat:
There’s a reason why some of us call it the big inflatable toilet.
And as far as football there goes, it’s not much better than baseball.
gbear
So we KNOW he’s a carpetbagger. St. Paul has consistently voted at least 2-1 against Coleman in his senate contests.
The Populist
Thank god asshats like Kevin Martin are gone. If they had their way the Net would become like radio, a place where a few could decide what your browser can visit since they’d make it impossible for the little guy to be heard without paying an arm and leg to big Internet telcoms.
pattonbt
@DougJ:
The cynic in me cant find a way to argue your point, but I just cant see how it could go down as anything but epic fail.
It will be a fun, if not equally maddening, process to watch.
I do like the idea of memewatch though. Prognosticating the idiocy of the village.
Delia
Coleman’s next move is for the people of Mississippi to elect the senator from Minnesota. That should help. Now the goopers need to hunt around for the principled stand that will allow them to claim that this was always the right thing to do.
Ed Drone
No, the original post includes the time Coleman’s election appeals will take.
Ed
J. Michael Neal
Couldn’t you have made this declaration before I spent an entire afternoon filling out a health insurance application we all know is going to get rejected? Are you trying to tell me that I’m going to be able to get government coverage without being turned down by a private carrier first?
Mnemosyne
Oh, they’d totally do it, because the other Villagers would say it’s okay when they all meet up at Sally Quinn’s cocktail party. Then they would be shocked and astounded by the backlash they get from across the country. Why are people so angry when Cokie said it was the perfect solution?
Really, someone needs to remind these people that Obama is the President of the (whole) United States, not the Mayor of Georgetown.
bayville
Since Franken didn’t receive 60 percent of the vote, they should have a re-vote.
That’s how things roll now in the Senate isn’t it?
brian griffin
okay, I have to delurk and ask the obvious question:
what does rush want them to do?
since Franken wrote that book title, I’d say the gop will do all they can to keep him out. they have to.
TheOfficialHatOnMyCat
@J. Michael Neal:
Cloud, silver lining, etc.
Win!
TenguPhule
What’s to stop Democrats then from keeping Republicans out of the Senate forever?
Aside from their lack of spines, of course.
Miriam
Franken isn’t a carpetbagger. He’s a native son coming home. He was born and grew up in St. Louis Park. Norm is from New York.
jcricket
How do we get all the way through these threads without a mention of Gregoire v. Rossi (WA State Governor’s race, 2004). The same arguments were trotted out by Rossi, and he lost the court case, quite badly. The judge included all kinds of admonishments for his lawyers failure to bring any evidence supporting their theories, or for advancing various theories that contradicted each other, etc. Republicans cried foul. No one cared, they didn’t appeal, and there were no negative consequences for any Democrats.
Gregoire served 4 years, and won an rematch against Rossi handily in 2008 – despite the near constant refrain from Republicans that the election in 2004 was "stolen".
Here’s what will happen: The courts will rule that Franken has won. Coleman will have lost his case. Franken will be certified. Some Republicans will make some noise in the Senate, but then stifle themselves and seat Franken. If they don’t, they lose any attempted filibuster and look like giant fools again (like the stimulus debate, or the Rush Limbaugh/Steele stuff). I don’t even think there’s a route for Coleman to appeal, but if he does, it’ll be tossed pretty quickly.
Election law is pretty simple, and it favors finality over certainty, and in very close elections like this, certainty is impossible to come by.
There will be continued whining about Franken "stealing" the seat (or whatever), but it won’t make any difference outside of Limbaugh land.
Ash Can
Re: Minnesota baseball — I love the Twin Cities, love their baseball history, but the Humpdome sucks the farts out of dead pigeons. (As just one small example, raise your hand if you can remember the poor Twins’ infielders ducking and covering when they lost Dave Kingman’s popup against that crappy teflon ceiling). I like Miller Park in Milwaukee OK, but I do hope the TC can do better. Miller Park is spiffy and a retractable roof comes in very handy, especially in April and late September, but it’s just a little too much like an indoor shopping mall to me, especially after the old-school quirkiness of County Stadium.
Gus
I hate the Dome, but it came in handy last opener. It was pouring freezing rain mixed with snow when I went into the game, and it was in the teens when I left.
[delurk]...[/delurk]
!@gbear:
Please! Minnesota sports=money+stupid? You don’t know the meaning of the word stupid! Here in Seattle, we built the fucking Kingdome 30 years ago. It was supposed to be suitable for all the major sports plus exhibitions, concerts, conventions, etc. etc.
30 years of whining from all the team owners that it wasn’t suitable for any sport! The concrete roof made concerts sound like they were being held in a toilet with the lid down, so all of them went to the Tacoma Dome instead.
Then the roof started leaking: we fixed that at enormous expense. Then sections of the inside of the roof started falling down. We spent, what…50 million dollars to fix it.
Then, a year and a half later, we blew it up, and replaced it with a football stadium we already voted down twice. Then we built a ballpark with a retractable roof a couple blocks away after voting it down, too.
Previously, when the Sonics threatened to leave town because they just couldn’t play in the Kingdome any more, we rebuilt the Seattle Center Colosseum at enormous expense as a basketball facility. So now that they’re leaving town anyway, what do we do with the damn thing? It used to be great for concerts, but now, basketball is all it’s good for.
Seriously, don’t insult us! Stupidity is our middle name!
jcricket
At least those are examples of politicians and officials in Seattle doing something. What we’re most famous for is endless studies, referendums, votes and revotes on issues with no perfect answers and no way to please everyone.
It’s the thing I hate the most about living in Seattle, but it does represent the passive-aggressive whiny-ass bitchiness of the majority of the populace pretty well.
DougJ
Sure, it’s better to hope, but realistically there isn’t much.
We are ruled for the most part by morons. There is a possibility that we will avoid ruin in spite of this, but it isn’t likely.
Tymannosourus
Please don’t give me that crap…. being born here and from here are two different things.
If you are going to head east to hang your shingle, more power to you. But don’t act like your heart stayed in the Twin Cities for the 30+ years that you were on the east coast.
I really like the guy, but come on, at some point we have to call it as it is, don’t we? He’s an east coast guy competing against a beatable republican senator.
patrick
talking to family back in MN, sounds like
1) Barkley (reform party candidate) probably pulled away more votes for franken than coleman
2) People are getting pretty fed up with coleman and his court shenanigans
in a 2 man runoff, I doubt it’ll be close enough to contest.
maybe this will cause the MN legislature to craft legislation to change the process to a runoff election 4 weeks after if nobody gets over 50% of the vote, or if the final vote is within 1% or .5% or whatever
bcinaz
Is there some poll results lying around somewhere that is encouraging Coleman to go this route? Does he think more people will vote for the Republican now? After he costs the state millions? After El Rushbo has put his stamp on the party?
I pick door number 2 – this is all about preventing Franken from getting seated. Or throwing it to the Supremes and hoping they uphold the Bush V Gore decision (the outcome is whatever the Republicans want the outcome to be)
Grubendol
@Ash Can:
I was at that game when Kingman hit the infield pop-up. The Twins infielders (Hrbeck, Gaetti, etc.) didn’t duck and cover when they lost sight of it, they watched stupendously as it got lost when the fly went inside one of the holes in the roof and stayed there. Ground rule double.