Ladies and gentlemen, the Republicans have some ideas how to move forward out of this economic mess:
John McCain and Richard C. Shelby, two high-profile Republican senators, said on Sunday that the government should allow a number of the biggest American banks to fail.
“Close them down, get them out of business,” Mr. Shelby, the senior Republican on the Banking Committee, told ABC’s “This Week With George Stephanopoulos.” “If they’re dead, they ought to be buried.”
While the Alabama senator did not say which banks to shutter, he suggested that Citigroup might be on that list, saying the bank has “always been a problem child.”
Looks like Monday will be a good day to short Citigroup (or maybe not, since commenters claim you can’t short under 5 bucks and Citi is worth approximately nothing anyway. I am still betting this was not helpful commentary for the broader market).
Seriously- the welfare queens on Wall Street keep asking what Obama can do to “regain the confidence of Wall Street” (and I really can not describe how angry those statements make me- Obama needs to have you regain confidence in him? You were the rocket scientists who caused this mess.) He could start by sending Sen. Shelby to Gitmo every Friday through Monday so he can’t appear on any more weekend shows. There may be drastic steps that need to be taken shortly, but the last damned thing the jittery market needs right now is Senators running around publicly suggesting we need banks to die.
By the way- which member of the CNBC brain trust will blame Obama for Citigroup’s cliff dive tomorrow?
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
All of ’em.
SA2SQ, etc. etc.
He could start by holding public executions of AIG executives.
Then if they don’t get the point, Citigroup, BOA and the others can follow.
tar and feather BOA!
Pillory! Pillory! Pillory! We will see if FDA regulation of imported fruits and vegetables is so important when they are being pelted with unwashed produce!
And then the public executions!
So, will this get the wingnut outrage like they generated about how Chuck Schumer single-handedly killed the otherwise just great IndyMac?
No, of course not.
Davis X. Machina
But a jittery — or worse — market and the economy it ill-serves is just the ticket to return Shelby’s party to power.
I’ve been calling the GOP the last Leninist parliamentary party in the West for years — now they’re in their ‘heightening the contradictions’ phase…and preparing for the inevitable collapse of the capitalist system, after which comes the revolution.
All power to the soviets of preachers and hedge-fund managers!
The biggest short sellers at CNBC will yelp the loudest. Funny how that works.
Right on. If Wall Street likes the plan that should be a sure sign it’s the wrong plan.
If Citi goes down tomorrow it will be more like falling into a puddle than a cliff dive.
Shelby’s also come out in favor of letting the American auto industry die to punish union members, railed against extending unemployment benefits, and been in the forefront of the "no healthcare for Americans who aren’t rich and/or congresscritters" movement. He’s a leading member of the Plantation Party — one of the monsters who wants to reduce America to a banana republic where a small group of "aristocrats" rules over the hopeless serfs with the assistance of a cadre of lawless thugs like Dicky Shelby. In other words, Shelby is a traitor, one much more dangerous to our continued survival as a nation than any dozen of "bin Laden’s Number-Two assistants".
What cliff dive? We’re just arguing about whether to recover the drowning victim or let the body float up on its own.
Citi is not going to take a dive even though you’d think it would. Its share price is being propped up at just over $1.00 so that it is not issued a delisting letter from the NYSE and trading halted. Just more proof of market manipulation if you ask me…
Mccain named the international economic lynchpin AIG on FNS. If you think about it it’s about the only viable policy for Republicans to regain power. Call it the Mad Max option, or, whoever has the baddest haircut and hog, gets to rule the roost.
If, as Mao says, power comes from the barrel of a gun, does that mean that trust comes from the butt?
Shelby released classified information in 2002 to FOX news. He had his toe slapped in 2004.
No, that would be the bullets.
Shelby opened the door to nationalization; he may have done us all a favor.
Cassidy the Racist White Man
Damn Michelle and her biceps! Doesn’t she know the market can’t recover if she isn’t wearing a burkha?
I you haven’t seen this clip yet, it pretty much tells it like it is:
@TenguPhule: Oh, I see then. The trust is right behind the bullets! Well then, go ahead boys, let ‘er rip!
Check this out:
For some reason, the link does not appear to be posting.
@Lavocat: What is the clip about?
Probably by David Vitter. He’s into toe slapping and other perverted fetishes.
@jcricket: Since the FBI investigated him, he probably had to borrow Vitter’s diapers also.
ray errol fox
"Let’s put it to rest once and for all—John McCain is not a nice guy. I doubt he ever was a nice guy."
That’s the intro to my blog entry, "Oh Johnny We Never Knew Ye," at http://sonofthecucumberking.blogspot.com/ .
I hope you’ll take a look at it—good to know I’m not the only one who’s sick and tired of McCain and his grandstanding, and would like to share more of my thoughts about him with you.
Shelby is a shitty Congresman, but makes a hell of a Dodge Charger.
Pretty small cliff. It’ll be like diving off a bonus check lying flat on the ground.
@KT: Huh. Hadn’t realized that it was back over a dollar. Good for them!
Christ. Scary 60 Minutes first segment. Watching FDIC seize a small, local bank at night, so no one panics.
By the way, Hyundai’s shill also said the Big Three should be in BK, so look for them to die, too.
Not that GM had far to go, but you get the idea.
joe from Lowell
Watching FDIC seize a small, local bank at night, so no one panics.
You don’t think Richard Shelby should walk up to the front door of the place with a big, oversized "BANKRUPT" sign at 10:30 in the morning on a Tuesday?
It may be that Citi and others going into receivership is one of the better proposed ways out of this mess. Are McCain/Shelby/GOP now trying to flip everything around so the GOP is the one crying "fail, baby, fail" and the Democrats are seen as defending the big banks?
Is that a reasonable view of the situation or have I gone all tinfoil hat on myself?
He could start by sending Sen. Shelby to Gitmo every Friday through Monday so he can’t appear on any more weekend shows.
:-) BTW, this guy doesn’t seem to grasp the negative effects of just allowing Citi to go bankrupt so why is he on the Banking Committee?
@joe from Lowell: Maybe it’s just me, but I got nothin’ left tonight but sad.
It’s a sobering story, although that’s probably an ironic choice of adjectives.
@AC: Hey, we are over the edge here, so who the hell knows? Wile E. Coyote, and possible Wile E. Quixote, know about temporarily defying gravity, not me. All I know is that as large as our government is (especially as it is holding a number of banks right now), it probably has a high drag coefficient, and thus is not suitible for gliding.
No, you’re not paranoid. GOP screams ‘fail baby fail,’ knowing that 1) it will never be allowed to happen or 2) if it does happen the economy will be even more roadkill than it is now. In the case of 1) the GOP can claim that it’s sticking up for sensible government and business practices (ahem) in the face of special interests, or in the case of 2) all of Obama’s politics-fu may not be enough to fix the problem. In either case they get to blame Obama and the Dems for the shittiness of everything. The result: PROFIT!
Shelby did not seem to have a clue that the big banks would have to be nationalized. Even the Chamber of Commerce President seemed appalled.
Citi is trading at $1 to $1.05. If it goes to 0, that’s not falling off a cliff. Maybe a curb.
In their own dim way, Shelby & McCain are on to something -that the money poured into bailing out banks is flowing smoothly into the pockets of various unsavory operators, at zilch benefit to the rest of us. Citi is a walking corpse. That the government should be taking control is pretty much unavoidable, & has been for a long time. The real issue this week will be the people turning up a rock to see where all the money poured into AIG went.
@Downpuppy: Citi is different than small banks in the sense that you just can’t turn over the assets to some one else to run. It has to be split up and that takes time.
I am not sure what the big surprise is. The GOP has been the YOYO party forever. You’re On Your Own.
We used to think it just meant the little guy, the guy with a disease, or the mom who lost her job.
Now we know, it meant the corporation, too. The employer, especially the big ones. And the banks, especially the loser banks.
Anything that messes up the Normal Rockwell version of America, whether it’s an individual, a family, a company, or even a country … if it stumbles, then fuck it (or him, or her). America is about success, so either succeed or get the fuck out of the way.
Left Coast Tom
They’re all on Friday night. Check out Calculated Risk blog…it isn’t Friday until there’s been at least one bank failure.
From the comments there I remember a former FDIC worker explaining that they move people into the failed bank’s town under assumed identities to avoid people knowing they’re about to seize the local bank.
Wall Street reminds me of those idiots on "Cops" that should just take a nice peaceful ride downtown to the drunk tank, but have to do something like trying to kick out the car windows.
I just saw this related take from the son of a founding member (and former member himself) of the religious right on them rooting for failure.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Okeydoke. Where do those fuckers keep their money?
I hope you weren’t attached to this ‘cos I’m stealing it.
John McCain did not know how many homes he and Cindy had. You expect him to know where he keeps all his money?
Look- I understand Citi’s stock is worth shit right now. I also understand it may be for the best to take them over and nationalize or whatever.
But what I also understand is that should be done carefully, without morons going on tv on Sunday, the day before the markets re-open for the week, and glibly asserting that a bunch of big banks may need to die.
Christ on a crutch.
@JL: I get that we can’t move in on Thursday & turn Citi over to somebody on Friday.
But we moved in 6 months ago. The damn foreplay turned into irritation around Christmas.
Love, meet marriage.
Brick Oven Bill
Geithner, Orszag, and Summers are all protégés of Robert Rubin (link from a year ago when CITI was above $20).
A responsible government would do an investigation into the decisions made by the CITI leadership, which may end up costing the taxpayer more trillions. But guess what? The President picked CITI leadership to represent his Administration. I wonder if anybody is pulling the President’s strings? What possible dirt could they have on him?
Orszag is also the man who testified before congress that the taxpayers could assume all of Fannie-Freddie’s liability for probably no money. We are out another $400 billion to date on that advice. That is eighty Nimitz-class nuclear powered aircraft carriers.
And this alone makes you smarter then 99% of our current economic analysts.
I don’t have the transcript in front of me, but i am pretty sure that the idea was that the cost for the remedy was cheaper than the cost of doing nothing. That is not the same thing as claiming that there is no cost.
For a Republican to grasp such a subtle concept is difficult, I know, but if you will put your head in the brick oven for a little while, I am sure that you will start to get this.
Not while it’s hot, Bill. Okay?
That is fascinating. Good for the guy — sounds like a sensible person.
What a bunch of idiots. I hope someone is keeping footage of this, the composite video of the hooverites will make some watching in a few years.
Um, when Senator Shelby says that Citigroup "has always been a problem child", what exactly does he mean? And if it has always been a problem child, why didn’t anyone at Treasury or the DOJ do something about it in the last dozen years?
Brick Oven Bill
Peter Orszag most certainly did state that:
"The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that there is a significant chance—probably better than 50 percent—that the proposed new Treasury authority would not be used before it expired at the end of December 2009."
Here is his letter to Congress dated 22JUL08. Note that even his writing style is shifty. Pete goes on to say:
"Taking into account the probability of various possible outcomes, CBO estimates that the expected value of the federal budgetary cost from enacting this proposal would be $25 billion over fiscal years 2009 and 2010."
Through February 2009, it has cost us $400 billion. Following this brilliant analysis, President Obama appointed Pete, Robert Rubin’s protégé, to head Office of Management and Budget. He was unanimously approved by the Senate.
By the way- which member of the CNBC brain trust will blame Obama for Citigroup’s cliff dive tomorrow?
Citi is trading at 1.03… more like a step off the bottom rung of a ladder than a dive off a cliff.
Off thread note…
You guys have just got to see this bit of wacked out idiocy to believe it.
Rod Dreyer , the "Crunchy Con" has veritably jumped the shark…
I am pretty sure I heard part of an interview with him on Terry Gross’ NPR show 6-12 months ago and it was very interesting since he is someone who was so close to the Christianist Movement.
He means that Citi unwisely chose not to make its universal headquarters be located in Shelbystan, Alabama, along with a little spreadin’ around campaign finance money. It’s not like it would have cost it anything, since Alabama would be glad to have handed them several hundred million in state taxpayers’ dollars.
J sub D
Uhhh, we do need some banks to die. A car company or two as well. That is what happens during a recession. The weak get culled. The government has been far to protective of companies that deserve to go bankrupt. This started with Fannie and Freddy who should have gone chapter 7 and given the purchasers of their MBSs 40 cents on the dollar.
Citigroup shares for the last 6 months.
They did the Wile E. Coyote a looonnng time ago. This is not about stock holders, it’s about creditors. Creditors take losses when companies go bankrupt every single workday.
But we all know this stuff, right?
Francis Schaeffer was considered the intellectual among fundamentalists back in the day. Of course, a philosophy undergrad could probably dissect his arguments pretty quickly, but there you go.
Interesting that his son thinks he would be less than approving of the political views of the religious right had he lived.
I can’t get the link to work from this site. Anyway, I’ll type it out.
Knock yerselves out.
I thought it was both a very funny AND topical clip.
Um, okay. NOW, it seems to be working.
A point to keep in mind re Citi.
Yeah, it’s only about a dollar a share right now. Falling to a nominal average of ten cents a share isn’t that much, relatively speaking. And yet, if it falls below that dollar for long enough, it’s delisted. If delisted, it drops a few rankings pretty much automatically. That in turn means that a number of papers – counterparty, bond, etc – automatically come due. (Notionally, it’s to prevent having to fight other creditors for the scraps by grabbing YOUR scraps first.)
In my opinion, Shelby just shoved Citi into bankruptcy. To get some taste of the consequences, review what happened when Lehman went bankrupt, recall what happened with IndyMac, and remember that Citi is larger than either.
Even so I’m getting push on other lists that what Shelby did is in no way as bad as what Schumer did.
Citi has my car note, does that mean I get to pay it back for pennies on the dollar? (yeah right)
yes and also with plenty of international consequences as they own banamex and plenty of other international banks. Fun times ahead! /snark
They have a goal. They are talking tough about banks, but what they really want is to see GM and Chrysler fail so the UAW is busted. So you can substitute "UAW" for banks in McCain’s and Shelby’s comments.
J sub D
Dunno how Shelby voted last year but if McCain is serious about letting banks fail (go chapter 7/11) maybe he should have addressed that while "suspending his campaign"* in order to give the Treasury Secretary a 700 billion dollar blank check.
It makes it hard for me to take him seriously.
– *The lamest campaign gimmmick of 2008, rivalling Dukakis in a tank for demonstrating desperation and cluelessness.
Letting Citi fail — as opposed to nationalizing it or bailing it out — would be catastrophe of historic proportions. It’s got twice the assets of Lehman.
Thank Allah that McCain is not president.
J. Michael Neal
Forget Citi. As a stock, it’s old news. You can’t make any money shorting it at this point. Stocks in bankruptcy don’t go to zero until the final settlement is made, because it’s always possible that shareholders get something. The March 2.50 puts are trading for more than $1.50; there’s nothing to be made there.
Watch Wells Fargo.
Wile E. Quixote
Actually the NYSE suspended the rule that says that companies that trade at less than $1.00 a share for 30 consecutive days will be delisted until at least June 30th. So if the fix is in then it’s in at multiple levels, not only in propping up Citi’s stock, but also in suspending the rules that would cause it to be delisted from the NYSE. If the NYSE hadn’t suspended this rule then AIG would be getting their warning sometime in the next week or two.
J. Michael Neal
Citi has a lot more than twice the assets Lehman did.
Wile E. Quixote
I had to give up on temporarily defying gravity because well, the temporary nature of my defiance was leading to a lot of hospital visits. I mean I like the staff at Harborview Medical Center, and they seem to like me. Harborview does quality work and they do a kick-ass double bacon cheeseburger with fried mushrooms in the cafeteria. However after 77 days as an inpatient and 18 surgeries we’ve decided that we should spend some time apart. In fact as of Tuesday I had gone two years without having any surgeries at HMC.
@Napoleon: Frank Shaeffer checked out of the Fundy funland quite awhile ago – he blogs at Huffpo.
Andrew J. Lazarus
AFAIK, it is still the rule that you can’t short a stock that trades below $5. Too late.
@Brick Oven Bill:
No sale, Bill. The budgetary cost includes revenue effects.
If a measure requires an expenditure of $400m, and gets back $400m in revenue, then its net cost is zero, n’est-ce pas?
Now be a good little brickhead and go get all the relevant numbers, please.
J sub D
OK folks, is Citi "too big to fail"? Say the FDIC pays off depositors of insured funds, screw the 200K(?) limit, pay off the total like they always have done. Nobody has ever lost a penny in FDIC insured deposits before, starting enforcing the limit now would not be wise.
Let the rest of the creditors fight over the scraps.
Does anybody here buy the nonsense that Citi’s liquidation would be the end of the banking world?
Side question–if Citi goes tits up, how does that affect my student loan forbearances? What do I do while the divvying up is going on, because there’s no way I can pay what they want me to–it’s damn near 50% of my take-home pay, and that’s after consolidating years ago at 3.25%.
I think we oughtta just save everybody a lot of time and trouble and stop wasting precious taxpayer dollars propping up what everyone recognizes is a failed institution.
I’m talking about Alabama, of course. Each year we taxpayers are forced to keep footing the bill for this inefficient, non-competitive waste, and yet the mavens of big government handouts like Richard Shelby keep demanding we keep this parochial interest going.
That post is a damn work of art.
@TheOfficialHatOnMyCat: De nada.
Normally I would rant my ass off about something like this but today was not a good day. My Mom passed away this morning, she would have been 70 this August. She has been living on borrowed time for the last nine years, so it was not unexpected but it still hits like a hammer. She was a tough lady, raising seven kids by herself after her husband ran off with her best friend. She stayed single because she swore that "no man was going to ever lay a hand on her kids again" because our father was quite an asshole (and still is to some degree). She got us off of welfare in less than three years, with no support from him, after he ran off. He never helped us as it was in the days before they would pursue the father across state lines, so he just moved to the next state but we hardly ever saw or heard from him.
She gave her all for us and in the end it essentially consumed her. We kids love her deeply and admire her strength, saying that we will miss her is an understatement. Sorry for the ramble, just sitting here reading things and trying to work through it all. Since this is ‘my place’ to unload, I’ve unloaded.
Today sucks but tomorrow will be better. That’s life
Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s
Good to see Brick Oven Bill here tonight. Named after the famous ovenkeeper at Auscwitz William W. Baker, no doubt.
@Conservatively Liberal: I’m really sorry to hear that, you have my condolences.
My condolences. Whether it’s expected or not, the death of a parent is a heavy blow.
@Conservatively Liberal: Sympathies, your Mom sounds like a hell of a woman.
It’s never easy to lose a parent, no matter the circumstances.
South of I-10
@Conservatively Liberal: she sounds like she was one hell of a lady. My condolences to you.
so sorry, my condolences.
Sorry to hear this CL. Condolences.
This reminds of me the Bits blog post from The New York Times I read earlier today, where it said that Citibank was partnering with MySpace to try to teach the younger generations financial responsibility. With its new Forward card, Citi will allow .25 percentage points off the established APR up to eight times. This prompted the blogger to ask, essentially, does Citi really have the balls to ask others to be financially responsible, after all of shit its going through. Apparently, the answer is yes.
Anyway, I don’t think it really matters one way or another. If the market pricing for Citigroup is even remotely accurate, news like this isn’t going to make a difference one way or another, or so I think, because it’s already so cheap. Could it affect the broader financial markets and stocks? Perhaps, but again, it’s not like any of them are riding high, so is it really going to make a difference?
Deepest sympathies. Your mom sounds like a great person and I know you will miss her immensely.
Brick Oven Bill
Fannie-Freddie bought ~$6-7 trillion of mortgages. If I had to guess what kind of mortgages the private banks sold Fannie-Freddie, AKA us chumps, I would first narrow it down to two options:
a. The banks sold Fannie-Freddie, AKA us chumps, their good mortgages; or
b. The banks sold Fannie-Freddie, AKA us chumps, their bad mortgages.
And then I would pick ‘b’. Thus, I conclude, that when, six weeks into 2009 the Washington Post tells us that:
The federal government yesterday doubled its commitment to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, promising to reimburse the companies for up to $400 billion in losses on their investments in mortgage loans.
The massive expansion of the government backstop is a response to mounting strains on the two companies, officials said.
I suspect that this $400 billion is pretty much, like, gone. Comprende?
And, as this $400 billion represents around 6% of Fannie-Freddie’s liability, and I bet losses will be 35-50% on the ‘bad’ loans that the private banks sold Freddie-Fannie, AKA us chumps, my estimate is that total taxpayer losses will be in the trillions.
Trillions is more that no cost, or ‘maybe $25 billion over two years’. This is why I do not believe that Pete got his promotion for his excellent analytical skills. I would go so far as to say I do not trust him.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
Losing a parent always sucks. Condolences, CL.
Brick Oven Bill
@Conservatively Liberal: Oh, I am so sorry for you, CL. What a huge loss, and a remarkable woman. Be gentle with yourself and definitely take your time through the (possibly "prolonged") grieving process.
I’m really sorry to hear this.
Dear CL…so sorry to hear this news. I lost my mom (at age 85) more than 12 years ago, and miss her every day.
I hope, like me, you are finding out how much compassion there is in the world.
Seems like only last September that Republicans were carping about Obama’s "talking down the economy." Suggesting that we torpedo one of the biggest banks in the country right at the waterline is different, right?
Mike in NC
Sorry for your loss. My mom passed away in December. Dad died in 2003 and she never was the same after that. They were married for 55 years.
CL: Sorry for your loss, but it sounds like she had kids who appreciated her devotion and hard work.
Tough to lose your mom. They loves ya no matter what.
I’m sorry to hear about your loss. My mom is still with me and my siblings, but she’s getting older. She may not have had it as rough as your mom, but my dad died when I was less than a year and a half old, and she raised us by herself. I have enormous respect for tough women who can meet the shit life throws their way head on, and it sounds like your mom is one of them. I hope wherever she is, she’s comfortable.
And yes, it sucks now, and it could suck for some time. But eventually, even though you’ll always miss her, it’ll get better.
Conservatively Liberal: My condolences to you for the loss of your mother. May you take comfort in remembering the strength she showed you along with the good days you experienced with her.
The Moar You Know
@Conservatively Liberal: I’m sorry. Give it time. Some people tear life a new one, sounds like your mom did just that (I had a somewhat similar upbringing). Scary and awe-inspiring what some people can accomplish when they decide they must.
What is wrong with allowing poorly managed banks to fail? Why should well managed banks be taxed (punished) & poorly run banks rewarded (bailouts)? This is rewarding negative behavior.
I’m sure that the simple math-bamboozle explains his rise to fame.
if there’s one thing an economist needs to know how to do, it’s fuck up a simple math problem.
@J sub D: Does anybody here buy the nonsense that Citi’s liquidation would be the end of the banking world?
No, I don’t.
@Conservatively Liberal: What an amazing woman. My heartfelt condolences.
Because the alternative is to nationalize them.
Except the WATB GOP doesn’t wanna do that.
Don’t bitch if you already rejected the solution.
Thanks for the kind words and thoughts, it just helped me to write something down about her. She never played favorites with us kids, each and every one of us was her favorite kid and she made sure we all knew it. She distributed love and ass kicking equally, bless her. A good progressive lady who could make a little into a lot when she had to, she was the kind of parent every kid wishes for. I said ‘parent’ because she truly was both a father and mother to us, strong and stern when necessary but kind and loving otherwise.
We are all dealing with it pretty well but I know the stories and waterworks will really flow when we get together, as they rightfully should. Mom didn’t want a funeral, her choice was cremation and a small shelf in a funeral park, which we will honor. Even in death she thinks of less for her needs and more for her family, only asking for a small place for her ashes to rest and our kind thoughts.
Instead of a funeral, we are planning a huge family reunion this summer. We had talked about it in the past with Mom and she thought that would be much better than a somber funeral as our last thoughts of her. She always loved the reunions, as we all did. She passed surrounded by six of the kids and their families as they all live in the same area. I am the lone one out, which sucks, but that is the way it is. There was no time for us to get up there before the end. I won’t kick myself for it because my Mom made it clear that if this is how it worked out that I am not to feel bad, it is where our hearts are that matter: Close together.
I am feeling pretty teary but a bit better just expressing these thoughts in print. Thank you all for the brief indulgence. I probably won’t comment much until I work through this but I will read and look for some laughs from you people when I am feeling down.
I know I can count on that to raise the spirits a bit. Thanks.
I think most emergency remedies are aimed at protecting the system, then the public’s interests, and depositors.
Whether they actually deliver these benefits or not, another story. But those have to be the first-order priorities, eh?
@Conservatively Liberal: My condolences as well, CL. She was a great mom & a great person. I suspect her virtues will indeed live on. I lost my dad twelve years back. Hang in there.
The world is going to pieces but I have found the following quote for John from Simon Reynolds, Rip It Up and Start Again:
Although the McLaren album laid the groundwork for the group, the actual trigger for the Art of Noise came from something far less cool: Horn and his crew’s nine months of laborious production on Yes’s 90125. During one of the many recording session hiatuses, Jeczalik and Langan got bored and started messing around on a Fairlight CMI Series II sampler, the first keyboard-based digital sampler. They took Alan White’s drum track from an aborted Yes song as raw material, but instaed of the usual practice of sampling individual drum hits they shoved a whole drum break into the Fairlight. When Horn heard the crashing monsterfunk stampede of looped rhythm, he realized that Langan and Jeczalik had unwittingly reinvented hip-hop’s wheel.
I am sorry to hear about CL’s mother.
(While a few of the groups covered are instant nostalgia. many more never really made it here in the States and the British POV justifies the reading of said book)
It must have been very tough not being able to be there with the rest of the family, but don’t beat yourself up about it. You just really want to be with other people who totally get what you’re going through, and it can feel so odd to be with people — no matter how loving and well meaning — who don’t get it.
The family reunion sounds wonderful. You might consider for your own feeling of closure before that (6 months is a long time to wait) to do something that is meaningful to you to honor your mom in a ceremonial, symbolic way. Obviously, living your life well is a meaningful tribute to your mom, but I mean something that you consciously choose that has some elements of ritual and honoring her. A special trip to a church or temple, if you work that way. Special doing of something that you associate with your mom — taking flowers to the water and throwing them in, or off a mountain, or planting a tree in a city, or baking a special cake that your mom liked and serving it at a food pantry. I don’t know, obviously, what would be meaningful to you, but finding something that could be your own private ceremony, now, could be really helpful. Just speaking from my own experience — ritual and ceremony exist for a reason, they are useful tools for coping with events that can feel overwhelming.
Big cyber hugs.
(In other frivolity, the new Gameday looks very good)
That is a very good idea.
If Citibank’s collapse would affect it alone I’d be the first to say "Let it fail!" Citi is connected to other institutions through a web of credit default swaps, CDO’s and heaven knows what else, so Citi’s fall would affect them too. I don’t know the extent of that web or what Citi’s failure would mean to other banks and businesses. Do you?
My sincerest condolences on your loss. May your memories of her help to keep your spirits up during this difficult time. Those memories will help to keep her spirit alive in the hearts of those who knew her. The family reunion sounds like a wonderful way to celebrate the life of this inspiring woman among those who loved and cherished her.
My condolences, CL. I lost my Mom in September 2001 and it still feels unreal on some level. More so because my Dad got remarried today, and while I love him dearly and his new wife is a wonderful woman, and I’m so happy that he has found someone who makes him happy, the idea of my Dad being married to someone who is not my mom just refuses to compute on some level.
In any event, I don’t know what your beliefs are and I won’t presume, but I will say this: in a very real sense, my Mom is still with me every day. Take comfort in the knowledge that over time, the pain of her loss will fade and what remains will be the memories, and a heightened appreciation of what she meant to you throughout your life.
Sorry to hear about your loss, CL.
I was just checking in because my sleep patterns are now kablooey from the minor time change.
@Incertus (#78): Good lord, how much did you borrow for school? It took me seven years to get my BBA, but that was because I worked full time in order to keep from having to borrow. It wasn’t until I started law school, and they had a rule precluding students from working more than twenty hours a week, that I finally broke down and borrowed the maximum amount allowed at that point, which I believe was around $4K. This was 1983, so it was a long time ago. After a year of being bored, broke and not wanting to incur even more debt, I bolted for the world of banking. Of course, back then, bankers weren’t hated as much as lawyers. :)
Bad Horse's Filly
@Conservatively Liberal: Well fuck, just fuck. That is a very bad day. I’m so sorry for your loss. Be kind to yourself. Your mom sounds like she was quite a lady. We could use more like that in our lives.
Please accept my condolences on your loss. Mothers hold a very special place in their children’s hearts. She sounds like she was brave and strong and wonderful.
@Conservatively Liberal: My condolences on the loss of your mom. Sounds like she was an amazing woman.
@Brick Oven Bill: Wow, you sound positively lucid tonight. What’s wrong?
Brick Oven Bill
They did not come for me so I am drinking Church Lady.
Good for you, Bill. I’m glad that all here at BJ didn’t have to try to scrounge up your bail money. Cheers!
Sorry to hear that, CL.
My prayers are with your family.
Your mother sounds like an amazing person. My condolences, dude.
edit: My grandfather will celebrate his 100th birthday in August…
I was in an apathetic mood today, burnt out by all the political bullshit and financial dramas. I was just popping in to go OT about an op/ed cartoon. After reading about your mom here, it gave me a fresh perspective on the events of the day. All this brouhaha is just small and petty when compared to real life, the things that really count.
Condolences and most sincere best wishes and prayers to you and your sibs,
My condolences, CL. I’m very sorry to hear that.
This may sound harsh, but I think to have known a strong determined and loving person in your life means you can never have a total loss. As much as you hurt now for your loss, you will always have something with you that is from her that can never be lost.
I do not mean to be glib or superficial. Ten days or ten years from now you will surely know what I mean. Perhaps you may now feel that next to the person she was that this is not much, that these words are so little in meaning as to be offensive, or perhaps you now feel as if nothing is all that you have. But nonetheless there was an exceedingly rare gift your mother gave you.
She had strength, and you saw that. And she was determined, and you saw that. And it was love that motivated her. Something very precious, that. And you saw that, and understood that. And so, it’s yours.
Not everybody has seen that, or owns that. And when you do, it’s something of a person that is not lost when that person dies.
My heartfelt condolences on the death of your mother, CL. Sounds like she was an amazing woman. It’s a real sock to the gut, especially when you have to get the news over the phone. When my mom died in 2000 I felt as though I had become untethered from the universe. Laughter over good times remembered will eventually triumph over today’s tears. But don’t give the tears short shrift; they’ve got their own purpose.
OT on a dead thread
A video of a former wingnut fundie Frank Schaeffer
on the current state of the GOP. The guy pretty much nails it.
geeze, I coulda used a different term. sorry CL.
People weigh in about things they don’t understand. When I hear things like this, I contemplate the idea of democracy. Maybe it’s not worth it.
Citi has obligations and debt that doesn’t just go poof if they go away. They have created a nest of counter-party debt that is a bomb that will destroy you all. They did it on purpose, not to destroy you, but because they thought they were insulating themselves. What they did was called "knitting". What they called themselves doing was getting free money and it was a good scheme until major banks went bust. The whole idea was that this couldn’t happen. These players can’t fall over and if they did, we are all fucked anyway.
That was my old sales pitch when I was selling structured settlements. "The money is safe, if these guys go down we are all making dinner over burning trash barells anyway". If Citi goes down (and I have no idea how to save it), you are fucked. I don’t care who you are, the knockdown is there.
Metlife would be in a position to pick the bones, and in the present market, they wouldn’t find anything, there is your next bomb to explode. They were a primary knitting partner on ignorant debt obligations. If this goes down you are looking at years of court battles, where the primary stakeholders of global capital go to a death match and nothing productive is done.
My condolences to you CL. Your mother sounds like she was one hell of a woman. I can tell from your writings here on BJ that she brought up her children well.
@136: there is not a small part of me that kind of wants to see that happen. But I am a bit petty regarding assholes who fucked up the whole system.
@chopper: That was bad. And by bad I mean awesome.
My condolences, CL.
Looks like I’m totally tone deaf now. Sorry.
@Conservatively Liberal: My condolences to you.
@Conservatively Liberal: My condolences. Your mom was obviously a great person who raised her kids right.
@John Cole: Actually, I doubt that the US markets are going to react at all to a couple of members of an out-of-power political minority shooting their mouths off on some Sunday morning windfest. Of course, it being already quarter to five on Monday morning CDT as I type this, I know that the Bloomberg overnight reports are backing me up. It does indeed look like the US exchanges are going down again today, but it would be in the wake of declines in Asia and Europe spurred by such things as the World Bank forecasting that the global economy is going to contract this year for the first time since WWII, and not because of the flailing of a couple of dipshit senators. I commented in another thread a few days ago that the markets don’t react to what politicians say (unless perhaps those politicians literally have their fingers poised over red buttons). They react instead to what other financial people say. If it had been Geithner and Bernanke or Citigroup management talking bank failure on ABC yesterday morning rather than Shelby and McCain, that would be a different story. As it is, it’s just more breeze for an already profoundly shellshocked stock market to ignore.
I’m really sorry to hear about your mom, CL. I’ve known mothers like her, and have always been in awe of their selflessness and their determination to give their kids a better life. My thoughts are with you, and I think I can speak on behalf of everybody here when I say that we’re here for you anytime you want to talk about her or how you’re feeling.
Conservative Liberal, You sound like you a quite a lucky person to have such a wonderful parent. Did she give you her wit and insight? It’s always difficult to lose a mom and please take care of yourself.
My condolences, CL.
Now, why does this exchange with Shelby remind me of Mystery Men?
Probably the scene where Ben Stiller’s wizened old hag of a boss cackles at him, "Just junk it!"
That’s a good metaphor for the GOP these days – an old crone clamoring for destruction.
Here it is, folks. Sally the Wrecker – new leader of the Republican party.
Government? Junk it!
Health care? Just junk it!
The economy? Junk it now, you miserable cuss!
He could start by sending Sen. Shelby to Gitmo every Friday through Monday so he can’t appear on any more weekend shows.
But Shelby knows that making such incendiary statements is the only way he can get invited onto the shows, which are basically the only game left for Republicans consigned to irrelevance for a good, long time.
The Federal government now owns 36% of Citi, and they will not be selling.
Citi shares will go up today because the market has already priced-in Republican stupidity.
And the winner is: Maria Bartiromo on Monin’ Joe this morning. Along with Jack Welch and a writer from the Wall Street Journal. They took a cue from Warren Buffet who stated that consumers are getting mixed messages and used it against the Obama Administration. If the consumers are getting mixed messages it’s from the media, especially CNBC and in lesser way MSNBC. After all they are all owned by GE.
That’d be sweet! They own my mortgage.
Can we have the SEC look into these right wing loudmouths to see what they were shorting before the BUSH recession took hold last summer?
I bet it would be awesome to shove the bullshit into these cretin’s faces.
If people are getting mixed messages it ain’t coming from Obama who, to these ears at least, is talking like an adult. I’d rather hear the good and bad than be lectured to like Bush would stand up there doing.
Lavocat @ 62
I don’t think the clip is funny at all. It’s just stupid right wing propaganda. Theywant people to think that nationalization would be bad. In fact, bank service has often been maddening under the "free market," and there is no reason to think that nationalization of banks would have any such effects on customer service because it has nothing to do with that. Failure to nationalize insolvent banks just means they will go on sucking taxpayers’ money into a bottomless hole.
My condolences to you, CL. Remember the good times.