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You are here: Home / Creeping Galtism, Part II

Creeping Galtism, Part II

by DougJ|  March 12, 200911:05 pm| 91 Comments

This post is in: Assholes

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How would you describe people who applaud the Times for choosing a new Op-Ed columnist who has written things like this? (via)

At least for now, before the casualties mount and the failures begin and the inevitable partisanship rears its head, we seem to be showing the necessary steel for the task ahead. And at the risk of sounding predictable, let me say how glad I am, and how fortunate we are, to have such a collection of hard men and women (Condaleeza [sic] forever!) at the helm of state today. Rumsfield and Powell, Cheney and Wolfowitz, all make me feel far more secure than the collection of ineffective hand-wringers (Anthony Lake, Warren Christopher) who dominated the Clinton years. (Think, for a moment, what a tissue of squandered opportunities Clinton’s foreign policy now seems.) And yes, in that list of leaders I include George W. Bush, whom even I have always considered a good but slightly callow man, but who seems so far to be rising to the occasion[—]as America’s leaders always have, so far. Call it Prince Hal becoming Henry V, if you will, but Dubya is growing up, and his speech last week before the Congress was one of the one of the finest political addresses that I have ever heard[—]and certainly the best American speech since the close of the Cold War.

If I really wanted to offend Harvard Asians, I might sit down and write an article in which I was, well, a tad critical of the Asian community. For instance, I might suggest that there was, let’s say, a slight trend toward ethnic self-segregation, or a slight proclivity for the sciences over the humanities among Asian-Americans. And I might, if I were so inclined (not that anyone would be), get downright nasty and suggest that a large chunk of these self-segregated, math-and-science types are self-absorbed, clannish and downright weird.

Bonus points for answering without using the words “Vichy” or “circle jerk”.

This is the kind of moderate, wise, Sam’s Club conservatism that will save our civilization.

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Reader Interactions

91Comments

  1. 1.

    Warren Terra

    March 12, 2009 at 11:20 pm

    Isn’t it like 4 AM over there DougJ? Shouldn’t you be getting plenty of rest in preparation for a long day of riding the underground, drinking warm beer, and eating fish-and-chips?

  2. 2.

    DougJ

    March 12, 2009 at 11:23 pm

    Shouldn’t you be getting plenty of rest in preparation for a long day of riding the underground, drinking warm beer, and eating fish-and-chips?

    I’m jeg lagged. Its only 3.

  3. 3.

    Ryan S.

    March 12, 2009 at 11:23 pm

    Jon Stewart vs. Jim Cramer serious pwnage.

  4. 4.

    Martin

    March 12, 2009 at 11:24 pm

    We’re grading on a conservative curve here. Remember, he’s replacing Kristol.

    Besides, college is when you are supposed to do stupid shit. I’d reject it out of hand on that basis alone.

  5. 5.

    John Cole

    March 12, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    I honestly don’t think taking someone’s college writing and using them for anything other than their first job is fair. College is when you are supposed to be writing stupid things. I thought this was unfair of ThinkProgress, tbh.

    He has written a bunch of stuff since as a professional writer. Judge him on that.

  6. 6.

    clone12

    March 12, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    As an Asian of non-Harvard ancestry, I would just point out we’re still a tad behind the Republicans on the self-segregation front. It’s not like we have an Asians-only golf course or anything.

  7. 7.

    DougJ

    March 12, 2009 at 11:29 pm

    College is when you are supposed to be writing stupid things. I thought this was unfair of ThinkProgress, tbh.

    Fair enough.

    That said, I’m not sure I can convey to you what douchebags the people who wrote for the Salient were.

    If the only reason he got the job was because of the whole Harvard thing (which it is, on the whole), then I think this is fair game.

    I can’t deny that this touches a nerve for me. Nor can I deny that all of you will be telling me that I was right about this in a few weeks when Ross unleashes his first truly sub-human opinion column on y’all.

  8. 8.

    AhabTDefenestrator

    March 12, 2009 at 11:30 pm

    @Martin: Good god, the inane garbage that passes for content in my school’s newspaper. In all school newspapers, I guess. Well, all newspapers, at any rate. But especially college newspapers.

    And the cartoons. Just terrible. Wouldn’t know funny if it fell on them and died!

    @John Cole: I agree.

  9. 9.

    Comrade Jake

    March 12, 2009 at 11:36 pm

    I don’t know. I’ve been reading Douthat off and on for the past couple of years over at The Atlantic. While I almost never agree with him, he’s always come across as fair and reasonable. This would make him a fairly singular figure in the right-wing blogosphere.

    Let’s wait and see what he writes in the NYT before judging the choice as a fail.

  10. 10.

    DougJ

    March 12, 2009 at 11:38 pm

    Let’s wait and see what he writes in the NYT before judging the choice as a fail.

    In a few weeks, you will be telling me that I was right all along.

    Mark my words.

  11. 11.

    Barbar

    March 12, 2009 at 11:40 pm

    The Harvard Asian thing had something to do with a controversial comic strip that ran in a Harvard paper about a misanthropic Chinese student, which turned out to be written by a Chinese student. I’m sure it’s still stupid if you take the context into account, but it’s not as asinine as it may appear.

    I’m still most pissed off about Douthat’s book, in which he bitched that all Harvard was good for was churning out articulate pseudo-intellectual morons into the next generation of elites.

  12. 12.

    DougJ

    March 12, 2009 at 11:42 pm

    I’m still most pissed off about Douthat’s book, in which he bitched that all Harvard was good for was churning out articulate pseudo-intellectual morons into the next generation of elites.

    I agree with him about that. I also think he is a perfect example.

  13. 13.

    Comrade Stuck

    March 12, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    Douthat is what twenty nine. So he’s had a whole 6 or 7 years to season his wingnuttery since college. Once a wingnut, always a wingnut, I say. Unless your not really a wingnut, but for some unexplained phenomenon, thought you were. A possible explanation might be Reagan infatuation during the formative years. I know some people it seemingly happened to.

  14. 14.

    TenguPhule

    March 12, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    How would you describe people who applaud the Times for choosing a new Op-Ed columnist who has written things like this?

    Long overdue for a haircut starting at the neck.

  15. 15.

    TheOfficialHatOnMyCat

    March 12, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    before the casualties mount and the failures begin and the inevitable partisanship rears its head, we seem to be showing the necessary steel for the task ahead.

    Damn, the guy sounds like just John Cole circa 2004.

    ( Yes, I am wearing kevlar underwear, as a matter of fact. Why do you ask? )

    I’m really sorry, but if you guys are going to put up straight lines like this, we are going to have to swing at them.

  16. 16.

    Brian J

    March 12, 2009 at 11:45 pm

    I don’t really know anything about him, but I wouldn’t hold it against him if he held opinions that go against those most here at BJ would express or if he in fact still hosts most of them. He is, after all, a conservative. In the name of intellectual openness, I’m fine with letting pretty much anyone say what they believe, unless it’s clearly bigoted or evil, at which point it doesn’t really belong in a forum like The Times Op/Ed page.

    Now, maybe because I don’t know anything about him, I’ve missed something, but I haven’t seen people say he’s on the same level as Coulter, Malkin, or Hannity. So, until he starts devoting his twice-weekly space to theories about Obama’s true nationality or some other conspiracy theory or nonsense, l’d say people need to hold back, even if they disagree with him in a number of ways. At the very least, consider it an opportunity to see that the other side thinks without giving cesspools like The Corner the page hits.

  17. 17.

    DougJ

    March 12, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    I’m really sorry, but if you guys are going to put up straight lines like this, we are going to have to swing at them.

    The minute he admits he was wrong, everything changes.

    I know I am right about this and soon enough you will admit that I am

  18. 18.

    Comrade Jake

    March 12, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    @DougJ:

    Want to bet? Loser sends Michelle Malkin $100.

  19. 19.

    Mike in NC

    March 12, 2009 at 11:50 pm

    Shouldn’t you be getting plenty of rest in preparation for a long day of riding the underground, drinking warm beer, and eating fish-and-chips?

    The Underground is great fun, the beer’s not that warm, and the fish-and-chips are almost always to die for. We’re taking a trip to London as soon the the Bush Depression is over…

  20. 20.

    TenguPhule

    March 12, 2009 at 11:50 pm

    Loser sends a picture of them kissing Michelle Malkin $100.

    Fixed for maximum squick.

  21. 21.

    Church Lady

    March 12, 2009 at 11:51 pm

    I’d like to think that everyone tends to continue to mature after they leave their undergraduate years and that their writing will reflect that maturation. If we are to be held to the standard of our beliefs at nineteen, twenty and twenty-one (Douthat’s age in the writing samples shown) in our older and wiser years, then we’re all in a heap of trouble.

    Doug, I don’t believe your problem is necessarily with Douthat. I think you are resentful of any conservative voice having a place on the opinion pages of the NYT. If that’s the case, no one the Times selected would please you.

  22. 22.

    Barbar

    March 12, 2009 at 11:52 pm

    Beating a dead horse here, but the real problem with the Douthat pick is that it maintains the "acceptable range" of public opinion, even though the fact that Douthat was even a candidate shows that much of that range is completely devoid of thought.

    A genuine leftist would have been good. Or a principled civil libertarian.

    Douthat will just spout GOP talking points, but occasionally deviate from them and say something sane, and all the liberals will nod their heads and say, "I don’t agree with him about anything but he seems pretty reasonable and isn’t that nice? He makes me think!"

  23. 23.

    Shygetz

    March 12, 2009 at 11:52 pm

    @John Cole: I’ve read some of his stuff since then. The level of thinking and of writing hasn’t changed much. I think it was a bad pick. If Douthat is the best conservative thinker that the Right has to offer, does that not offer a clue that the conservative movement might be intellectually played out? Seriously, the front bench is a twenty-something blogger? C’mon, put a libertarian out there or something. Given the ideological handicaps he has to work with and his youth and inexperience, Douthat is fine. But Times columnist? Please.

  24. 24.

    Warren Terra

    March 12, 2009 at 11:54 pm

    Did someone really just comment "Once a wingnut, always a wingnut" on John Cole’s Balloon Juice? Non-ironically?

    P.S. @ DougJ: I forgot about Daylight Savings. Sorry bout the jet lag; I tend to find that eastbound travel sucks.

  25. 25.

    DougJ

    March 12, 2009 at 11:54 pm

    Doug, I don’t believe your problem is necessarily with Douthat. I think you are resentful of any conservative voice having a place on the opinion pages of the NYT. If that’s the case, no one the Times selected would please you.

    That depends on how you define conservative.

    If you define it as moronic, Bush-worshiping silliness, then guilty as charged.

    Personally, I would love to have seen a libertarian chosen.

  26. 26.

    TheOfficialHatOnMyCat

    March 12, 2009 at 11:56 pm

    @DougJ:

    So your whole point is, Cole got tired of the Kool Aid, but Douthat has not, so …..

    What? Douthat is just another righty. I don’t see what the big deal is.

    With whom did we expect them to fill the "conservative" editorial slot?

    Who is the Kool Aid purveyor that would be welcomed by the crowd that hangs here?

    Is the actual Kook Aid flavor the thing that matters? Green, versus red? Diet, versus regular?

    The right has become so rigidly doctrinaire, I don’t see what the point is of pointing out any particular pundit or spokesman at this juncture.

    Twenty more could come over to our side, and they would still be able to pick from a legion of fools with a thirst for the Kool Aid.

  27. 27.

    Balconesfault

    March 12, 2009 at 11:56 pm

    I’ve noticed that people who cite the famous Winston Churchill quote about liberals and conservatives never seem to be citing it as a criticism of a generation of heartless bastards who would never grow up to have an appreciation of humanity past a thrill for what power can accomplish in crushing the powerless.

  28. 28.

    used to be disgusted

    March 12, 2009 at 11:57 pm

    I’ve found the whole Douthat discussion enlightening.
    I’ve never agreed with the guy, and I get the strong impression that I wouldn’t like him much either.
    But I still think it was a good move for the NYT. Once you grant that they *have* to grade conservatives on a curve . . . and I understand that this premise is exactly what some people don’t grant . . .

    Larison might have been more honest. But that’s exactly the problem. (Among other things, he’s way too frank about the power of the Tibet lobby.) Douthat knows how to be just honest enough for the Times.

  29. 29.

    gwangung

    March 13, 2009 at 12:00 am

    I’d like to think that everyone tends to continue to mature after they leave their undergraduate years and that their writing will reflect that maturation. If we are to be held to the standard of our beliefs at nineteen, twenty and twenty-one (Douthat’s age in the writing samples shown) in our older and wiser years, then we’re all in a heap of trouble.

    On the other hand, he has to show that he HAS matured…

    After all, he DID say that. Just as it’s not entirely fair to constantly hold it over him, it’s not entirely fair for him to pretend he never wrote it. If he grows (like, at least show a bit of embarassment over writing that), much less of a problem. If he stands behind it and continues, much more of a problem.

  30. 30.

    Barbar

    March 13, 2009 at 12:00 am

    To 26, 28: if conservatives have nothing to say, why do they need a spot to say it?

    Seriously, what will Douthat bring to the table? He may be the best of the bunch, but all that means is GOP talking points (usually) + concern for poor people + slightly ridiculous prudery. Why is this worthwhile?

    On the other hand, Friedman, Dowd, etc.

  31. 31.

    Martin

    March 13, 2009 at 12:02 am

    I’m still most pissed off about Douthat’s book, in which he bitched that all Harvard was good for was churning out articulate pseudo-intellectual morons into the next generation of elites.

    You’re pissed because he got something right? I’ll repeat the joke: The only thing harder than getting into Harvard is flunking out.

    I think Bacevich would probably be my perfect pick for Kristol’s old slot. Would certainly show that the NYT is cognizant of where the world is going. Probably too grown up for the op-ed page though…

  32. 32.

    DougJ

    March 13, 2009 at 12:03 am

    The right has become so rigidly doctrinaire, I don’t see what the point is of pointing out any particular pundit or spokesman at this juncture.

    I agree.

    And that’s the point. I do not believe that people who call themselves conservatives are genetically inferior to you or me. Nor do I believe that they are disadvantaged by environment.

    Therefore, they should be held to the same standard.

  33. 33.

    Joshua Norton

    March 13, 2009 at 12:03 am

    We’re grading on a conservative curve here. Remember, he’s replacing Kristol.

    I’m still stuck on heterodox. What exactly is unorthodox about spouting standard neo-con/psuedo-libertarian garbage in a new and exciting way? There is a term for persons who sell you the same old crap and tell you it’s new and exciting: that term is con artist.

    Conservative and Libertarian posing in youngsters is the most nauseating posing there is.

  34. 34.

    DougJ

    March 13, 2009 at 12:04 am

    used to be disgusted

    Now I try to be amused?

  35. 35.

    TheOfficialHatOnMyCat

    March 13, 2009 at 12:04 am

    @Barbar:

    Well, speaking as a liberal partisan, I’d say, they don’t.

    But since the world is not made up of liberal partisans …. the Times has to at least give space to voices from the right. I don’t see how they can not do that, and give the appearance of being something like fair.

    But the thing is, the voices on the right will apparently all say the same thing right now, and that’s okay. Let them say it, it’s …. what they have at the moment. It isn’t exactly winning over voters in droves at the moment.

    Douthat strikes me as being a mediocre thinker and a tool. But even at that, he seems like an improvement over the guy he is replacing.

  36. 36.

    Comrade Stuck

    March 13, 2009 at 12:04 am

    @Shygetz:

    : I’ve read some of his stuff since then. The level of thinking and of writing hasn’t changed much.

    I hadn’t read the guy much at all before he was picked. The past several days I’ve read some more, mostly in tidbits from commenter’s on liberal blogs linking to his stuff at the Atlantic. What I see is a degree of immaturity that is to be expected from someone his age, but also quite a lot of the brand of wingnuttery that infests the GOP these days. I suppose the question should, what really is a conservative? Is it what it was from people like Buckley and Will (at least on some days). Or is it the militarism, intolerance — and belligerent irresponsible dogmas of eliminating taxes, hating gays and opposing anything that has a whiff of teh liberal regardless of whether it might be good for the country at this time.

    My model is Buckely, and Douthat doesn’t really come close.

  37. 37.

    Punchy

    March 13, 2009 at 12:05 am

    Having problems waking up, Doug? Maybe this’ll help

    you’re welcome.

  38. 38.

    DFS

    March 13, 2009 at 12:06 am

    See, this stuff, I’m willing to give him a pass on. Let he who did not say something stupid during his time as an undergraduate cast the first stone.

    It’s not like he hasn’t written plenty of creepy foolishness in far more recent years.

  39. 39.

    TheOfficialHatOnMyCat

    March 13, 2009 at 12:07 am

    @DougJ:

    they should be held to the same standard.

    Agreed, but to do that, don’t we have to give them a frame in which to hang their inferior work, so that we can stand around and mock it?

    Seriously, don’t we want them providing those inches to Douthat?

    What good does it do to have a legion of damned fools opposing you unless you give them ample opportunity to speak and expose their foolishness?

  40. 40.

    used to be disgusted

    March 13, 2009 at 12:09 am

    @32: oh, but they certainly *are* disadvantaged by environment.

    Most of their friends are conservative. Often, they come from a conservative family. They spend their youth drinking sugary drinks, while instead of a nanny, Fox is constantly droning in the background. If they’re taught to read at all, they may be forced to read Atlas Shrugged or The Corner.

    Have some pity, man!

  41. 41.

    anonevent

    March 13, 2009 at 12:09 am

    @Barbar: Isn’t that what we want from a conservative, to make us think? One of the things I believe that makes me a good liberal is I’m willing to be challenged by someone who has thought through their POV. They may not make me change my mind, but I at least have to justify my position.

    Most of the NYT "conservative" writers are only conservative in the number of neurons they use.

  42. 42.

    Joshua Norton

    March 13, 2009 at 12:10 am

    OT – Dean on "Supernatural" just said that Joe the Plumber was a douche. No wonder all the teeny boppers love him.

  43. 43.

    DougJ

    March 13, 2009 at 12:11 am

    What good does it do to have a legion of damned fools opposing you unless you give them ample opportunity to speak and expose their foolishness?

    I’d like someone I don’t agree with who makes sense. If that’s not possible, then just someone I agree with.

  44. 44.

    srv

    March 13, 2009 at 12:12 am

    @Barbar:

    I’m still most pissed off about Douthat’s book, in which he bitched that all Harvard was good for was churning out articulate pseudo-intellectual morons into the next generation of elites.

    Well, he obviously wasn’t talking about their business school.

  45. 45.

    El Cid

    March 13, 2009 at 12:12 am

    I think now Douthat would rather talk about his feelings of steely hardness when the subject is Sarah Palin.

  46. 46.

    Barbar

    March 13, 2009 at 12:13 am

    31: I’m pissed because that book actually was a boost to his career. The world is full of wankers.

  47. 47.

    Comrade Stuck

    March 13, 2009 at 12:16 am

    @DougJ:

    I’d like someone I don’t agree with who makes sense. If that’s not possible, then just someone I agree with.

    Yes. Life is too short to waste it suffering fools. Even if they are the only opposition available.

  48. 48.

    Balconesfault

    March 13, 2009 at 12:17 am

    Here’s my test – are there any conservatives who don’t embrace military adventurism? I might find something interesting to hear in what they say.

  49. 49.

    Dork

    March 13, 2009 at 12:17 am

    If you guys aint watchin the ‘Cuse/Conn game, ya should be. Going inta 3rd OT. Incredible.

  50. 50.

    TheOfficialHatOnMyCat

    March 13, 2009 at 12:17 am

    @DougJ:

    Doug, you mock the opposition you have, not the opposition you wish you had, don’t you think?

    The right has no articulate, sensible spokesmen today, that I know of.

    Look at them. Limbaugh. Palin. Plumber-Wurzelbacher. Jindal. Cantor. Cronyn. Gingrich. Will. Kristol. Shelby.

    They can’t come up with two ideas to rub together.

    If they get do, maybe they will be able to rebuild their political machine into something that works. Until then …..

    Popcorn.

  51. 51.

    vg

    March 13, 2009 at 12:22 am

    John, why did you give this ridiculous kossack the car keys? What’s the point of a blog where half the posts look like comments out of a dKos open thread?

  52. 52.

    raff

    March 13, 2009 at 12:28 am

    Meh. I’ve read a bit of Douthat’s stuff. His prose isn’t that bad & at least he thinks the current conservative movement needs to make some changes (even though most of his ideas for "change" are either re-branding the same old bullshit or suggestions that could never work in the real world). The Times could have done worse, I guess.

    Having said that, however, I’m sure Douthat will write some very stupid things during his tenure at the Times, & if they haven’t already been coined, I reserve the right to call him either "Asshat" or "Doubt-that".

  53. 53.

    eemom

    March 13, 2009 at 12:29 am

    I’m one of the douthat novices, but from what I’ve read today he’s a Palin groupie second only to Rich "what — me jerk off?" Lowry, an antichoice drone, and an expounder upon questions such as why women have trouble reaching orgasm (hint: it’s not because his actual dick, like the rest of him, is an arrogant little tool).

    Fuck. That.

    And for anyone who thinks those are opinions the NYT should represent as, like, a "fair and balanced" newspaper, fuck them too, and the horse they rode in on.

  54. 54.

    Barbar

    March 13, 2009 at 12:31 am

    anonevent:

    Isn’t that what we want from a conservative, to make us think?

    Um, my point is that he doesn’t make us think, he just makes us say that he makes us think. "Oh look a GOP person who’s not totally crazy, I’m so open-minded!"

  55. 55.

    Comrade Stuck

    March 13, 2009 at 12:32 am

    @vg:

    Would you like to add your two cents, or are you one of those chickenshits with nothing to say but complaints about others not saying stuff right?

  56. 56.

    Doctor Cleveland

    March 13, 2009 at 12:33 am

    This is not an insane move. Douthat, at least, has sense enough to know that conservatism has to change and (dare I use this verb?) evolve. He’s not dug in. That puts him way ahead of most conservative pundits at the moment. Would you rather have Douthat, or one of of the foxhole fraternity at The Corner?

    And I’m with JC that using his college journalism isn’t fair, no matter how much the staff of the Salient might have resembled various hygiene products. I certainly wouldn’t want to be judged now, professionally, on things I wrote as an undergraduate. And in fact, I would refuse to be judged upon that basis. The ugly excerpts are things Douthat wrote before he was old enough to buy a beer for himself. There’s a reason we don’t sell 19-year-olds whiskey; we don’t think they have sufficiently mature judgment. The same rule should apply for judging their thinking.

    The best argument for Douthat is upside: his capacity to grow from the articulate-but-doctrinaire hack he was in college into an independent thinker capable of nuance. If he continues to evolve, the NYT will have done well by itself. If not, MoDo will just have to share her sandbox.

  57. 57.

    srv

    March 13, 2009 at 12:40 am

    @DougJ:

    I’d like someone I don’t agree with who makes sense. If that’s not possible, then just someone I agree with.

    Dougie, as has been pointed out:

    you. have. the. keys.

    Assuming the proprietor doesn’t mind, I’m sure the groupies here would be willing to play along as you become the the blogosphere’s Burkemaster Maximus.

    It sure as hell would be more interesting than the fap fest over Republican detritus this place has become.

  58. 58.

    Funkhauser

    March 13, 2009 at 12:48 am

    I got pissed at Douthat’s Harvard-teaches-nothing book not because he was right or wrong, but because it was lazy and bad social science.

    He was right that, for some students, it’s easy to coast through Harvard. You pick the easier classes and major, and you spend your remaining time doing other things. However, for another large group of Harvard students, learning is fun and exciting and challenging, so you challenge yourself and work hard. Similarly, some kids are honest, some learn morals in college, some learn to lose their morals in college.

    How many of each group are there? Well, that would require taking a survey or other study. Instead, Douthat took a bunch of anecdotes about being snubbed at final clubs and sprinkled his whining liberally. And secondly, newsflash for everyone and no one, This same phenomenon happens at every college, everywhere. Well, maybe not Deep Springs. I’ve attended about six colleges in my day, for various reasons, and now teach at one.

    Douthat just used lazy reasoning and whining to build up another hate-the-academy oh-woe-Allan-Bloom-was-right rightwing screed. And unfairly undermined his classmates and colleagues. F— him.

  59. 59.

    whetstone

    March 13, 2009 at 12:50 am

    @JohnCole agreed. I thought it was tasteless. I’d hate to see anyone try to use my college newspaper writing against me (and I’m basically Douthat’s age).

    @DougJ I probably shouldn’t be weighing in w/o having read the book, but it sounded like a hella cash-in to me: go to Harvard, make powerful connections… then turn around and dump on the place that gave you so much. For money and fame.

    Would love to see Larison end up at the NYT, but I’m unaware of a major paper with those cojones.

  60. 60.

    Barbar

    March 13, 2009 at 12:51 am

    Douthat became a professional political pundit right out of college, proving both his commitment to rigorous thought and his discomfort with complacent elitism.

    There are a lot of kids at Harvard who simply work very, very, very hard. It’s almost a bit depressing, but the place is full of overachievers.

  61. 61.

    Comrade Stuck

    March 13, 2009 at 12:57 am

    It sure as hell would be more interesting than the fap fest over Republican detritus this place has become.

    Lookee here, our one true blue Progressive Stallion is concerned.

  62. 62.

    Comrade Stuck

    March 13, 2009 at 1:21 am

    Did someone really just comment "Once a wingnut, always a wingnut" on John Cole’s Balloon Juice? Non-ironically?

    Yes they did. And with the appropriate qualifiers that may or may not apply to Mr. Cole.

    I ate my spinach today.

  63. 63.

    vg

    March 13, 2009 at 1:21 am

    lol @ Comrade Stuck

    "Would you like to add your two cents, or are you one of those chickenshits with nothing to say but complaints about others not saying stuff right?"

    I suppose by contrast, you would be one of those heroes out there on the edge calling it like you see it and the critics be damned. Sort of like the brave men and women of the 101st Keyboardists, except when you write "courageously" on blogs, it’s not something other people should point and laugh at.

    My two cents, if you must have them, are that Douthat seems like a decent guy. I read his stuff very occasionally and there’s nothing particularly wrong with it, even if he is an adherent of a backwards political philosophy. But the kind of stupid shit being engaged in here, viz. digging up goofy stuff Douthat wrote in college, is exactly the sort of amateur character assassination that fills the pages of Daily Kos. Now you might think that’s awesome and it helps you win the framing battle or whatever, but one of the nice things about this blog, to my mind, is that the proprietor has a sense of fair play and decency that you don’t get other places. In other words, a kos diarist like DougJ kind of undermines the main advantage this place has.

    Maybe this is only my own preference, but I have to think there are other people out there who aren’t into this facile game of throwing whatever shit you can at whoever you see on the other side and calling yourself a hero for it.

  64. 64.

    Et Tu Brutus?

    March 13, 2009 at 1:25 am

    It’s warm beer with a raw egg in it in the morn in merry old England; expect to see raw egg on the NY Times face and editors forced to drink warm beer ( Colt 45 or Old English 800) in a couple of weeks in Merry Old/New York

  65. 65.

    Ed Marshall

    March 13, 2009 at 1:26 am

    John, why did you give this ridiculous kossack the car keys?

    He’d look really smart if he gave it over to you tools. Find a tea party enthusiast or something. You fucked up. You need to understand that and interalize it at a deep level. The left has had to do this a number of times. You need to develop some mechanism like the New Republic in the 80’s. There are other lessons to be learned there about swallowing too much of the kool-aid in the other direction, but hating on Kossak’s is nowhere. Anyone interested in that sort of bullshit isn’t a new sale.

  66. 66.

    vg

    March 13, 2009 at 1:29 am

    Right, because if you’re not a kossack, you must be a right winger. No one could find dKos distasteful unless they’re a freeper. Basic stuff. Everyone knows that.

    Ed, have you ever reflected on how similar your pattern of dialogue is to a dittohead’s? "Well, of course you liberals don’t care much for Rush…"

  67. 67.

    Ed Marshall

    March 13, 2009 at 1:30 am

    Sorry that was dumb, I don’t think there is much to be gained by combing through the old Crimson archives.

    I remember watching a bloggingheads with Douthat, where he is sort of flagellating himself about making a Munich analogy when Bush 43 apologized for the Chinese fighter incident (and Jonah Goldberg called it immature!).

    He’s learned things since then, I don’t think he’s learned much but he isn’t totally impervious to reality which does set him apart from his field.

  68. 68.

    Comrade Stuck

    March 13, 2009 at 1:44 am

    I suppose by contrast, you would be one of those heroes out there on the edge calling it like you see it and the critics be damned. Sort of like the brave men and women of the 101st Keyboardists, except when you write "courageously" on blogs, it’s not something other people should point and laugh at.

    That’s a lot of strawmen for one paragraph and nonsensical to boot. And this blog has, at least for the last couple of years, specialized in throwing shit at republicans who deserve it, and mostly these days that is all of them, or nearly so. You don’t think Douthat deserves it and is a nice guy, so be it. It seems about half agree with you here and the other half doesn’t. That doesn’t sound like any kind of groupthink to me.

    And from what I can tell, Douthat’s ideas haven’t changed that much since his scratchings during college, which weren’t all that long ago. His writing skills might have improved, but his ideas are as nutty then as they are now. I personally would be grateful to read a thoughtful conservative that doesn’t quake in his or her boots every time the Limbaughs of the right clear their throat. Maybe Douthat is that guy, but from what I’ve seen I really really doubt it.

    And comparing this blog to Kos is just a crock of shit, as are those who make it. My point to you was that if you have something to add, other that chucking stones at others, then fine. I just don’t care much for those who only criticize.
    Since you’ve done that, then my previous remark is inoperative.

  69. 69.

    Brendan

    March 13, 2009 at 1:45 am

    "Would you rather have Douthat, or one of of the foxhole fraternity at The Corner?"

    Foxholers, personally. That lot has the virtue of being transparently obvious party hacks, which is not good, but is common and recognizable- it’s honestly dishonest, consistently twisted in a consistent fashion. Douthat’s more dangerous in what I’ve read of him. He tries hard to not be quite as much of a dishonest hack and succeeds enough to be persuasive in the role; but what he replaces the hackery with is a sort of pointy-headed elitist conservatism (to borrow a phrase) which comes off as so inexperienced and so shallow that it could only have been conceived by a person with his biography. He seems to halt his thinking at the earliest level of evidence or analysis which is convenient with his preconceptions and biases, and makes a show of interacting with inconvenient facts while misunderstanding them just enough to dismiss them without really engaging. He’s intellectually passive-aggressive.

    It’s a dangerous mixture in that it’s just honest enough for opponents to let it slide (though the size of the Times platform may partially negate this) or to be convincing to people who skim but don’t think deeply or research thoroughly.

    In fairness, I think he’ll be a decent read in 10-15 years when experience has tempered him and disabused him of some of his more unworldly, but-it-works-in-the-lab ideas. FWIW I’m younger than he is, so that’s not old fogeyism.

  70. 70.

    libarbarian

    March 13, 2009 at 1:53 am

    VG,

    I think "character assassination" is a bit of a stretch, but I’ll at least agree that it’s a stupid circlejerk to sit around and mock what someone wrote as an undergraduate.

    I think we all wrote things as undergraduates that are well worthy of mockery.

    At least I can honestly claim that I avoided the "Let me write awful poetry and then read it too my friends" stage. I’ll bet a fair share of those mocking Douthat cannot and certainly wouldn’t want that shit dragged out now for all their friends and family to see today :).

  71. 71.

    vg

    March 13, 2009 at 2:03 am

    "That’s a lot of strawmen for one paragraph and nonsensical to boot. And this blog has, at least for the last couple of years, specialized in throwing shit at republicans who deserve it, and mostly these days that is all of them, or nearly so."

    I think it was clear enough in my previous posts, so I’ll emphasize rather than clarify: My remarks are aimed solely at DougJ and this Stuck dude who replied to me. I don’t agree that this blog, until recently, has thrown shit at Republicans in the rather unprincipled and ridiculous way they do it on dKos. There are indeed some kinds of attacks that are too petty for the proprietor, as this very thread demonstrates.

    "And comparing this blog to Kos is just a crock of shit, as are those who make it."

    Yeah, regarding that… I think you should ask your university for a refund.

    @ libarbarian re: "character assassination"

    I think the qualifier "amateur" is important here. It’s not so much that the attack cuts deep and brings the target’s character and credibility into question, but rather that its maker imagines it to and levels the attack with a petty, impotent malice.

  72. 72.

    AnneLaurie

    March 13, 2009 at 2:07 am

    There is a term for persons who sell you the same old crap and tell you it’s new and exciting: that term is con artist.

    Welp, as our Mr. Douthat would be the first to opine, you can’t spell "conservative" without the "con"!

    Actually, I’d only been exposed to this particular Young Rethuglican through the mockery on moonbat blogs, and from those snippets I’d assumed RD was another over-the-hill Boomer bitching about those dam’ kids on his lawn. If he’s really under 30, either he made a conscious decision that there was still enough time to establish a niche as a ‘conservative pundit’ before the bottom fell out of the market, or he’s an example of intellectual progeria.

    Or, since he’s gotten a paying job on the ‘paper of record’ when said paper looks liable to disappear within the next few months, possibly both.

  73. 73.

    ronathan richardson

    March 13, 2009 at 2:13 am

    I like you Doug but you’re being a douche. Yes, Ross is overrated, but he’s probably said a lot fewer dumb things in his years than just about any conservative, and more smart things on the realm of social conservatism. Let him be.

  74. 74.

    maryQ

    March 13, 2009 at 2:15 am

    I am not lying when I say that I was recently asked to run for school board in my town, and I declined because, in the age of Teh Internets, someone can go back and find some sh*t I wrote in college and embarrass the crap out of me.

    So I think it is kind of low to go back to college journalism when taking Ross down.

    I think the youngster is smart as heck, but your earlier point, that he would not even be considered were he not a conservative, is very well taken. That, um, movement is so bereft of anyone with two cortical neurons capable of simultaneous firing that Ross seems like something extra-special. He’s just a pretty smart guy with pretty good ideas, most of which I don’t agree with.

    School board. Think about that.

  75. 75.

    Comrade Stuck

    March 13, 2009 at 2:16 am

    Yeah, regarding that… I think you should ask your university for a refund.

    Lame. Your snarkfu needs a lot of work.

    There are indeed some kinds of attacks that are too petty for the proprietor, as this very thread demonstrates.

    This needs to be christened as a new Internet Tradition. "Too petty for the proprietor" LOL – A classic un-intentional spoofing.

    levels the attack with a petty, impotent malice.

    We prefer potent malice, but sometimes the little blue pills run out.

  76. 76.

    Comrade Stuck

    March 13, 2009 at 2:24 am

    And I want to go on the record that I don’t care a wit who gets to write at the NYT’s, or anywhere else for that matter. Boredom and the urge to write about something is my excuse.

  77. 77.

    Surabaya Stew

    March 13, 2009 at 2:30 am

    Why is it important for any paper to have an "ideologically balanced" opinion section? I thought the direction of any newspaper sat with the owners and/or the editors; liberal, right-wing, or anything in between. (The irony that republicans have blasted the Times for years for supporting affirmative action and other programs of their ilk; bet they aren’t too upset over this lowering of the bar.) Why this seemingly mandated hiring of a token "conservative"? So the NYT can appeal to a younger crowd? To fill a quota? To please some politicos? Whatever the reason, it smells of desperation.

  78. 78.

    srv

    March 13, 2009 at 2:44 am

    Perhaps all those who think Ross deserves some slack for the college years should consider giving the Republican Party some slack. They’ve been on a binge and need some time to sober up their message.

  79. 79.

    bago

    March 13, 2009 at 5:45 am

    @anonevent: I thought that was the purpose of the voices in my head.

  80. 80.

    bago

    March 13, 2009 at 5:52 am

    Perhaps I’m just a dick, but I think I would want my previous statements thrown back in my face if I was going to be a commentator of record. It might be kind of therapeutic, and useful to learn from.

  81. 81.

    liberal

    March 13, 2009 at 7:48 am

    @Balconesfault:

    Here’s my test – are there any conservatives who don’t embrace military adventurism?

    There’s a hole crowd of ’em over at antiwar.com. And there’s Larison.

  82. 82.

    liberal

    March 13, 2009 at 7:53 am

    @Church Lady:

    I think you are resentful of any conservative voice having a place on the opinion pages of the NYT.

    You’re probably wrong; he’d probably be quite happy with Larison.

  83. 83.

    pharniel

    March 13, 2009 at 8:25 am

    I had a thought last night.

    isn’t objectvisim, as presented in Atlas Shrugged(oapas), incompatable with free market theory(fmt)?

    According to fmt when oapas proponents ‘go galt’ and disspier shouldn’t someone move in to then fill the vaccum? They may not do it as good, but basically there’s a need, and it will be filled. The parts are interchangeable.

    That’s gotta be horrible, to espouse one belief that elevates movers and shakers to godhood but know from another core tenent that one is disposable.

  84. 84.

    gil mann

    March 13, 2009 at 9:42 am

    Did someone really just comment "Once a wingnut, always a wingnut" on John Cole’s Balloon Juice? Non-ironically?

    I know, right? I was about to cite myself as a counter-example and then I was like waaaiiit a minute…

    Anyway, yeah, this was cheap, Doug. I’m pretty gay for your posts in general but this smacks of punching below your weight class. And Campus Progress? That place skeeves me out. College kids are cute and exhuberant and whatnot but if they’re right on the issues it’s just a happy accident.

    Which actually ties into what really offends me about Douthat getting an NYT slot—I’ve had it with these wunderkinds and their cradle-to-grave multiplatform writing gigs. I gather Yglesias is smarter than most and maybe even deserving of his position as an opinion-leader but Jesus Christ, man, wait some fucking tables before you presume to tell me how the world works.

  85. 85.

    frankdawg81

    March 13, 2009 at 9:51 am

    Doughhat? Is that like an asshat, it would make sense since he sounds like one. I sure hope a doughhat is not some creepy cross between Doughy Goldberg and an asshat because the amount of mind bleach necessary to rid myself of that image probably has negative side affects.

  86. 86.

    jenniebee

    March 13, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Dubya as Henry V? Maybe, in the sense that both trumped up a cause to launch a war of conquest that turned (whodathunkit?) into a Hundred Years War. And also maybe for the "God wants us to win so we don’t have to worry about ‘troop strength’ or other wussy stuff like that" attitude. I’d never have suggested myself that Bush would tell anybody to surrender or else:

    If not, why, in a moment look to see
    The blind and bloody soldier with foul hand
    Defile the locks of your shrill-shrieking daughters;
    Your fathers taken by the silver beards,
    And their most reverend heads dash’d to the walls,
    Your naked infants spitted upon pikes,
    Whiles the mad mothers with their howls confused
    Do break the clouds, as did the wives of Jewry
    At Herod’s bloody-hunting slaughtermen.
    What say you? will you yield, and this avoid,
    Or, guilty in defence, be thus destroy’d?

    But if Douthat wants to go there, I’m sure we can find a link somewhere to CIA or other operatives getting a father to reveal information by threatening his children in front of him. Which is, of course, the man’s own fault for not telling us sooner.

    Discretion really would have been the better part of valor in the last eight years. O for a muse of Falstaff!

  87. 87.

    Olly McPherson

    March 13, 2009 at 11:13 am

    Anyone who defends Douthat as a thinker should check out this Sadly No post.

    His record, like that of the Atlantic in recent years, is one of unrestrained mediocrity is service of passed-over ideas.

  88. 88.

    jcricket

    March 13, 2009 at 11:23 am

    If we think the vetting process for political appointees is bad now, just wait until all the kids that grew up with email, Facebook, MySpace, 4chan, etc. want to run for office. The electronic "paper" trail will be littered with idiotic things they’ve all done when young/naive.

    I read Ross periodically when Sully links to him. I never agree with him, and think that wrapping up his ideas in grandiose philosophizing or historical analogies doesn’t make them any more correct.

    However, he’s no Red State/Freeper, and can string together sentences reasonably well. Whether this is damning him with faint phrase or soft bigotry of low expectations – whatever. Maybe, if he writes long enough, we’ll see his views evolve as his audience feedback widens.

    I’ll repeat what I said in the other thread, Ross is basically innocuous. He’s Tucker Carlson, not Bob Novak.

  89. 89.

    geg6

    March 13, 2009 at 11:34 am

    @eemom:

    I couldn’t add anything at all to your succinct and intelligent response to Douthat and all the "oh, he writes well and seems reasonable" stuff I’m seeing.

    He’s a damn religious nut, he’s sexually repressed, and he absolutely is disgusted by women and would keep us in harems or perform female circumcisions on us with great glee and the force of law if he could get away with it.

    He makes me want to spit, the little repressed asshole.

  90. 90.

    Barbar

    March 13, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Yeah, this whole "he seems like a nice reasonable guy" is a pretty pathetic standard.

  91. 91.

    Erika Froh

    March 13, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    I’m with DougJ on this: the Salient makes the Standard look intelligent and its writers were all True Believers. Douthat is not an idiot, which is why he knew he had to moderate his writing after he graduated to get a job anywhere outside of right wing welfare think tanks (although, given the Atlantic’s employment of so many conservative bloggers, I’m not sure there’s much difference there), but his beliefs are the same, only now couched in moderate-reading prose. As much as I despise Sullivan for his inflammatory "fifth column" article after 9/11, at least he had the guts to admit he was wrong when Bush showed his true colors on the torture issue. Has Douthat ever shown similar humility and grace?

    Should be interesting to see whom the Atlantic picks to replace him. Would be nice to get another liberal up there to keep the lonely Ta-Nehisi Coates company, but I think the Atlantic has decided that they have a 1 progressive quota when it comes to bloggers.

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