Steve at the Washington Monthly has heaped the appropriate amount of ridicule on Rep. Shadegg’s “no-cost stimulus” plan (the title doesn’t even make sense, and then once you realize there actually is no plan, it goes downhill from there), but the folks at the NRO are lapping it up. Here is David Freddoso extolling the virtues of the “plan”:
Rep. John Shaddegg (R, Ariz.) and Sen. David Vitter (R, La.) led the presentation of the package, which would keep expedite drilling for oil and natural gas on the outer-continental shelf, expand states’ boundaries in the ocean for the purpose of taxing the energy development, and open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for “environmentally sensitive” exploration, with the lease funds going toward renewable energy projects.
The bill would also streamline licensing requirements and curb environmental litigation against energy production projects. It prohibits the use of the Endangered Species Act to regulate carbon dioxide, and prevents states from setting their own higher emissions standards for vehicles.
No mention whether or not clubbing baby seals was also included in the “plan.” When I originally read the FOX News piece, I couldn’t figure out what the hell Shadegg was talking about when he said we are “giving jobs to oil fieldworkers and natural gas fieldworkers in Russia and Saudi Arabia and Venezuela, when we should be putting those people to work here in the United States.” My first thought was he was suggesting invading Russia, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela and taking over their oil fields, but now I realize what he meant. We’re back to the McCain campaign and “Drill, baby, drill.”
These guys literally have not had a new idea in three decades.
MikeJ
Oil demand is down. Why would oil companies want to put more on the market? They know people are willing to pay $150/bbl.
scav
somehow the little "No Comments" flag below seemed apt at the time. Ah well, lost by now, but nonetheless apt.
Comrade Kevin
I don’t think it’s possible to spoof that, it reads like self-parody.
jibeaux
Not only do they have old ideas, they seem, you know, a lot prouder of their old ideas than logic would dictate. Just cut an ad that says:
Americans are incapable of innovation. Let’s face it, we are not going to get in on the ground floor of selling low-cost solar panels or LED lights or electric cars to the global market. We just aren’t, the Germans are already ahead of us and you know how they are, we just need to focus on what we’re good at. And what we’re good at, frankly, is taking money and resources away from our children and leaving them with crap. And that should be good enough to get us through the next four to six years, before the Europeans have cornered the market on sustainable energy in India and China. And at that point we can probably use their designs and find some backwater place to sell them to that they haven’t gotten to yet. And after that, it’s the kids’ problem.
America: Not a World Leader Anymore, and Proud Of It. Vote Republican.
Stefan
When I originally read the FOX News piece, I couldn’t figure out what the hell Shadegg was talking about when he said we are “giving jobs to oil fieldworkers and natural gas fieldworkers in Russia and Saudi Arabia and Venezuela, when we should be putting those people to work here in the United States.”
It’s obvious — he means we should put Russian, Saudi Arabian and Venezuelan oil field workers and natural gas field workers to work here in the United States….though woudn’t that take jobs away from Americans…..?
gbear
You do have to admit that, despite the lack of new ideas, they still manage to present them in a much less attractive package every time they roll them out.
joe from Lowell
Hi, we’re the Repulicans. You know what would really get the economy moving again? Preventing states from setting their own emission standards for vehicles. Here, let me walk you through it.
Right now, we’re in a very deep recession. There has been massive job loss accompanied by a huge cutback in consumer spending, and well as purchases and payrolls of companies.
Now, what we’re going to do is pass a law that would prevent individual states from setting their own environmental standards for emissions from vehicles.
Then mumble mumble mumble…jobs! Hey, look over there, a gay Mexican.
Vote for us, the Republicans.
donovong
John PLEASE don’t say anything else about invading any more countries. You might give those dumb fucks an idea.
Zifnab
At least the former would have been an original idea.
Now, some might say that the Obama / Hillary / Pelosi / Reid campaign for Green Collar energy jobs is exactly the same thing as the Vitter / Shaddegg plan, only better because you don’t need to sink ten oil wells to find a wind stream or a really sunny patch of ground.
Why wouldn’t you embrace renewable energy as a source of new jobs and new local industry?
Shut the fuck up, that’s why.
SpotWeld
Why is the GOP so big on selling oil and nat. gas now.
It’s pretty much certain that the price of the commodity will go up over the long term (a decade or two, say), and that with proper investment the US can lead on alternative fuel technology.
I say, buy the fuel we need now, off the world market. Then sell ours later in the future.
Buy low, sell high.
Is it really that hard to get?
gex
Why does the GOP want to spend tax payer dollars to import Russians and Venezuelans and then give them oil field jobs that could go to Americans?
Michael
Life in a conservatopian echo chamber will dampen creative impulses every time it is tried.
Michael
Anybody willing to take up my bet that after Steele is gone, they’ll trot out their tired missives using a deep drawling Southern white guy?
Rick Taylor
This makes there plan to tax-cut are way back to prosperity seem sane in comparison.
Tom65
Unless we’re talking about nationalizing the oil fields and refineries, it’s all just wankery. Where do these nimrods think the oil goes once it’s brought up?
Brick Oven Bill
There is a fundamental disconnect with both parties that we can simply ‘drill here’ and be energy independent. The reality is that we might have 2-6 years of off shore oil and a similar amount of natural gas. Alaska has 1-2 years of oil left.
The New World Order folks make the assumption that oil will continue to be sold on a global market but this is false. Russia will move to block Asian energy transfers to the West when the time is right. The Strait of Hormuz is only 22 miles wide. They will probably take Iran in the wake of the Israel-Iran conflict, in the name of ‘peacekeeping’.
Having our navy vessel request permission for safe passage from a couple of Chinese trawlers made an impression on Putin. So did Obama calling for face-to-face discussions with the Chinese to discuss the matter. The Chinese are not HBD deniers.
This is why it is important to develop our oil shale reserves. North America has 2.1 trillion barrels of shale oil, this is 400 years worth of liquid fuel. We are energy independent. The other option is anarchy sooner than later. I now have to go to an event and will not be able to respond. Hopefully I have been clear enough.
The Populist
As we’ve seen since the right took charge in the mid-90s, they are doing all they can to hurt innovation. Why? Is it a hatred of science? Is it because they asshats are in bed with oil companies? Both?
They hate innovation. They hate small business. I dare any rightie to rebut what I am saying without stupid platitudes and talking points.
C’mon righties, answer the question for once in an honest fashion.
The Populist
Bill, why can’t you be honest and admit that it’s YOUR friends on the right that believe this. The Dems have never, ever pushed for drilling now.
jibeaux
Okay, Brick Oven Bill is officially smarter than the Republican Congressional leadership. Hell, Bill’s SQUIRRELS have probably figured out a new way to get nuts in the past few years. I would not rule out the possibility that the brick oven pizzas could have a demonstrably higher IQ, either.
Trollhattan
Awhl shale, huh? That’s one way to get rid of those pesky CO2 levels, now isn’t it?
I think the Republicans need more avuncularity. All missives shall henceforth be spoken only by Fred Thompson. Between naps.
Lev
Torture?
The Moar You Know
This is the worst showing by an opposition party in my memory.
I’m embarassed for them.
binzinerator
removed
joe from Lowell
I don’t know, Moar, the Dems in 2002-2004 were a pretty sorry lot.
Comrade Dread
Shorter GOP Plan: We’d like to do to the energy sector what we’ve done for the banking sector!
The GOP: We’re like the anti-Midas. Everything we touch turns to shit.
Jay Severin Has A Small Pen1s
We’ve already put Russians, Cubans, and Venezuelans to work in this country with super high paying jobs. They’re called ATHLETES.
I’m serious. Have you ever seen a Republican like Rudy refuse to attend a ballgame because the players are foreignors? The only difference between a Dominican player and a Dominican janitor is how they get in the country…private plane vs raft.
gbear
Sorry for an OT question this early in the thread, but did Bernie know when he walked into court today that he was going to be locked up, or did he think he was going to be able to stay out on bail until the sentencing hearing? I hope to god that he was blindsided by the judge’s desicion that he was too much of a flight risk.
Lev
So they’re like Tony Soprano?
Just Some Fuckhead
@The Populist: He has an anarchy event to attend so he won’t be responding.
Robin G.
Comrade Stuck
Call it the Wingnut Eureka Bill.
I used to dream of getting this kind of Primo Reefer way back when I’d park my hippie ass under a Hickory tree and figure out the meaning of life. I could have been figuring out republican get rich quick schemes, if I’d been smart..
bago
It’s odd when those most in danger of osteoporosis are also in danger of hyper-calcification.
bago
Bill just brought the medical grade crazy, also.
John Cole
@gbear: Beats me. I was convinced he was going to run out the clock then kill himself before he spent a day in jail.
gbear
@John Cole: Did you mean ‘kill himself’ literally, or in the ‘only the family will be allowed to see the body’ sense?
John Cole
@gbear: I thought he would commit suicide.
Studly Pantload, Would Be Minion of John Cole
Krugman recently blogged a lament for our country in that conservative asshats with such excruciatingly unworkable "ideas" can get the sort of media and political purchase that they have to spout said excruciatingly unworkable "ideas." Possibly just a flash of that famous Krugman shrillness, given that the public currently ain’t buyin’ what the Republicans are sellin’, but it does give one pause that the party, while teetering on irrelevancy, still gets the MSM coverage it does without the utter ridiculousness and bereftness of what its espousing called out in the stark terms that it so achingly clearly deserves.
Keith
I’m encouraged to know that if I lose my upper middle-class white-collar job, the GOP has a plan to put me back to work on an oil rig. At least the food’s good.
Comrade Stuck
@John Cole:
Master con men don’t usually kill themselves when caught. They just see it as a challenge for a bigger and better con to get uncaught, or figure a new mark during their vacation courtesy of the state Though at 70, and the size pooch he screwed, prospects don’t look good for a rebound in Maddow’s case.
jrosen
@ Brick Oven Bill
I seem to remember that converting oil shale into petroleum requires large amounts of water. Where are you going to get that at a cost that makes the whole process feasible?
Water, wind, sun, and nuclear (assuming in the later case that serious problems of safety and waste are addressed to the point that the benefits outweigh the costs) are the way to go. Coal, if there is an economic way to trap the CO2, which there probably is.
But whence come these nightmare scenarios about Russia and Iran? Nostradamus?
Sure, such a thing is possible, but realistically, how probable is it? It might have made sense to Peter the Great in the old times of naked power politics (and when the most powerful weapons available were muzzle-loading muskets mounting bayonets, cavalry sabers, and cannon with a range of —maybe — 600 yards) but it sure doesn’t now. Why would Putin want to destabilize the whole world?
Comrade Dread
All politicians are like Tony Soprano. But less honest.
And dumber. Much dumber in the case of the GOP crowd.
sal
Whoa!
More taxes??!! What’s this?! How are far left socialists like these still in the GOP? Do you get a free pass for wearing diapers? Whoa!
Josh Hueco
@Comrade Dread:
And pervier. Much much pervier.
Comrade Dread
Yeah, Tony never wore a diaper when he was with a hooker, so you have a point.
demkat620
@John Cole: I still don’t understand why they won’t take your advice John, and shut up for a while.
What do they hope to accomplish with this crap? At some point don’t they realize that the public just isn’t listening?
Robin G.
@Comrade Stuck: Is Madoff really a master conman? I haven’t followed the story too closely, but it seemed to me that he was basically just a thief who didn’t get caught for a long time — so it would seem to me that he didn’t get off on the thrill nearly so much as simply getting off on having the money. So I wouldn’t think he’d take it a challenge. But, like I said, I haven’t followed it very closely.
TenguPhule
"Faster Pussycat, Kill Kill!"
Comrade Stuck
@Robin G.:
He pulled off the greatest Ponzi con in the history of the world. And did it by taking a lot of money from some smart people and getting away with it for 25 years. Seems fairly masterly to me. Though I am fairly certain he didn’t do it alone as I’m betting we will come to learn.
Ricky Bobby
The modern GOP = weaponized stupidity
Punchy
JMM links to an article that says Gov. of TX wants to forego $550 MILLION StimPak Ducats due his state. Unemployment bennies, natch.
If I’m jobless in TX and my only scratch lifeline dries up, I’d consider bodily harm against a man so fucking cruel as Perry.
Do these fuckers really believe they’ll gain votes by screwing their constituents?
kay
I’m completely baffled by the "recycle the Bush team" strategy. They really think people want to see Ari Fleisher again? He’s horrible and defensive and bitter, and he was never very appealing. Turn off the sound and watch his face. He’s mad as hell.
I watched the Business Roundtable Starring Barack Obama and it was sort of a lovefest. Ari came on and said a series of negative things…
I’d bring back Eric Cantor. At least his face is sort of bland and presentable. A little…mummified, in an odd way, but at least he doesn’t look like he’s going to start screaming and throwing things.
michael
Over at the FReak, they always really liked quoting his admiral character from "Hunt For Red October" about "this shit is going to get out of hand". For them, it signalled his real manitude, and put him up on a level with other manly man, exemplars of real ‘Murkan heroes like Chuck Norris, Chuck Bronson, Clint Eastwood, Charlton Heston and John Wayne.
John Cole
I have no idea. Right now, they are in that position with the public that you as an individual sometimes find yourself in your relationships, when you have been fighting for hours about something, it is clear your significant other is pissed off at you, and anything and everything you say is going to make things worse. Then, as now, the best course of action is to just shut up and think things through, and come back with a new plan (and flowers) in a little bit.
Zifnab
@joe from Lowell:
The Dems had ideas. They just lacked delivery.
And I think it’s a little silly to rag on the GOP for not having any "new" ideas. Obama went back to the FDR playbook to tackle the flagging economy. His health care proposal dates back just as far. Unionization? That dates back to the 1800s. Aggressive international diplomacy? Woodrow Wilson was talking about that after the end of WWI. Leveraging new technology for job growth and reducing government costs? Holy crap, see: Industrial Revolution.
Obama isn’t beating GOP in the war of ideas with fresh, new, innovative tactics. He’s simply dusting off the old Dem positions, tweaking them around the edges, and selling them to the American People on the grounds that they’re good, their smart, and they work.
That’s the reason Green Energy Initiatives have traction while "Drill, Baby, Drill" sounds foolish and hollow. Neither are frighteningly novel. But only one has an actual chance at doing what it’s billed to do.
GOoPers have had a 30 year history of selling bad ideas. Now the tide is turning. But its not because the ideas are old. It’s because they don’t work.
michael
There’s an amazing capacity for self-delusion in humanity if somebody says "You’re going to be rich".
You miss all the clues out of a psychotic blindness.
demkat620
Yes. SA2SQ.
TenguPhule
Hubris.
The Cause can never fail. It can only be thwarted by Teh Enemy. Big Brother Rush will always win in the end.
demkat620
@TenguPhule: Lolz!
Rush "Stonewall" Limbaugh.
Trollhattan
re. Madoff, evidently he’s psychopathically adroit at the con. The fellow who helped suss him out back in ’01 spoke with him many times in person, and compares him to Ted Bundy declaring his innocence on the stand.
I figure somebody like him presumes he’ll never be caught (and why would he?) so never plans a grand exit strategy. With billions to play with, couldn’t he have at least bought a hollowed-out volcano somewhere, like Osama?
More here:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/03/weekday-bernies
Napoleon
@Punchy:
They must, but I think that they are doing so much damage to the name of the republican’s it is just staggering. I could potentially see the Republican’s getting cranked for the 3rd election in a row, and this time the Democrats will start taking seats in the south.
TheHatOnMyCat
Please describe the costs of extraction and delivery to refineries. Please describe the delta between the refining costs for that oil vs. the oil we are using now.
Please describe the environmental impacts and costs related to environmental remediation making extraction feasable.
The resource can only be realistically examined when the real costs and other issues of its use are exposed. Just stating that the resources are in the ground and that therefore there is no problem is about what we used to call a c*nt hair away from being a lie.
I don’t know what the missing letter is that is represented by the asterisk, so figure that out and get back to me.
TIA, your pal, THOMC.
TheHatOnMyCat
Has it occurred to the cheeses that extremely harsh penalties associated with a Ponzi scheme actually may increase the damage to victims?
Since the schemer is unable to escape the scheme without exposure to extreme penalty, he is motivated to keep the scheme up for as long as possible even after he has passed the point at which he would rather, otherwise, to have shut it down.
How many Madoff victims resulted from an extra 10-15 years of the scheme’s operation that have come purely from a desire to escape punishment, rather than from a desire to make more and more money?
Suppose that instead of something as absurd as a 150-year prison sentence on a 70-year-old man, the penalty were confiscation of all assets, prohibition against ever owning property again, and a lifetime of work to remediate or prevent damage to victims or potential victims? How many of this guy’s victims would like, say, 10% of their money back in return for Madoff’s being sentenced to service instead of jail? If I were a victim or potential victim, I’d take that deal in a heartbeat. His suffering in prison until death does nothing to help a single victim.
Bubblegum Tate
How do they deal with the fact that it’s Alec "StalinMao" Baldwin who saves the world in that movie?
Cat Lady
@John Cole:
There’s always the jail cell "incident", that will be framed as "no one could have predicted…"
michael
I’ve defended people on big fraud cases in the past, one of which showed up on "Dateline". I also defended a civil suit against a mid-level Ponzi participant.
Your proposal wouldn’t deter a top Ponzi operator. There is an extreme level of narcissism and an absolute belief that they will prevail. If you notice, they tend not to run once the pyramid collapses – that’s because they think they can go on forever, as an immortal.
The peope that jail possibilities do effect are the second tier – those who are co-conspirators who aren’t as plagued by the personality disorder that the top operator has. Every so often, these things have to fail, as a lesson to those who’d consider leaping into a Ponzi.
I was listening to a radio show today – usually unlistenable – but they were seeking calls from Ponzi victims. One guy slipped through just to say he didn’t see the big deal, and thinks that if nobody gets greedy, then everybody can make some money. It was bizarre – the host had to say over and over that "you do know it will collapse, that its inevitable, right?"
les
hmmm, lessee, 4MM jobs lost in the Great Refucklican Experiment; solution: hire them all, give them shovels and turn them loose on domestic oil and gas supplies. Surely the supplies will last until they die digging.
TenguPhule
My heart weeps for the poor poor scammer who got in over their head and steals millions more to hide the billions blown.
No wait, it’s telling me to kill the SOB with a hatchet.
TheHatOnMyCat
:
My suggestion does not reference any sympathy for the scammer. It asks whether the harsh penalty mitigates damage to victims, or not.
I am not convinced that it does, and if it doesn’t (if it does the opposite), then I question its efficacy.
This principal applies to any situation where harsh penalty makes more victimization likely. It’s really a question about the whole nature of criminalization of undesired behavior in the first place. You can apply it to any number of contexts.
Michael at 65 argues an opposite view, and he makes a coherent argument. But I’m not sure I am convinced. If, for example, voluntary cessation of the scheme and confession resulted in a lighter penalty, wouldn’t it be at least worth consideration if earlier cessation of the scheme resulted in fewer victims and reduced damage to victims?
How would one know whether the idea had merit without trying it? Under the present rules and the assumptions in post 65, a Ponzi scheme can only end when it’s discovered or the schemer figures out a way to stop it without detection. As we see today, that can be a long time, resulting in a long, long list of victims. If another model produces earlier termination of the scheme, why not use it?
Corner Stone
@ComradeStuck @ 48
He pulled off the greatest Ponzi con in the history of the world. And did it by taking a lot of money from some
smartreally greedy hear-see-speak no evil people and getting away with it for 25 years. Seems fairly masterly to me. Though I am fairly certain he didn’t do it alone as I’m betting we will come to learn.fixt.
gbear
@John Cole:
Tax cuts!!
Dennis-SGMM
Senators Vitter and Shaddegg are right, and the best way to prove it is to have the biggest drilling rigs available placed in their respective back yards. Have them run 24-7-365 until that black gold is just a’pumpin into America’s main line. Show us the way, Senators, show us the way!
Indylib
@Lev:
CIA taught torture techniques to Central American dictators – the non-commie ones, that is, in the "80’s. So no, not a new idea.
Emma Anne
@Zifnab:
Good point. The problem with the GOP isn’t that they don’t have any new ideas. It’s that they don’t have any good ideas. The fact that they are the same bad ideas over and over just makes it more obvious.
Wile E. Quixote
@Brick Oven Bill
Man, I would love to see the Russians take over Iran, or try to anyways. I mean first there’s the fact that they don’t have a land border with them, so unless they want to go through a couple of the ‘stans’ or Azerbaijan they’re going to have to mount either an airborne invasion or an amphibious invasion across the Caspian Sea. Assuming that any of this is possible then they have to keep Iran pacified, good luck with that, the Iranians won’t roll over for the Russians any more than they would roll over for us. Even if the Israelis do something stupid like attack Iran the Iranians are hardly going to welcome the Russians as liberators any more than the Iraqis did with us. Oh, and there’s also the fact of the painful Russian experience in Afghanistan, you remember that don’t you? The Russians do. Nope, unfortunately we’re the only country stupid enough to get involved in a mideast quagmire.
Zuzu's Petals
My son is chief mate on a drill ship and has worked in the industry for years. I asked him whether he thought this, uhm, "plan" would create 2 million jobs, and this is what he said:
Just Some Fuckhead
@Zuzu’s Petals: Why does your son hate America?
Mike in NC
Ari Fleischer tried telling Chris Matthews last night that Obama should be grateful that he doesn’t have to deal with Saddam Hussein. That must be the best three trillion dollar investment ever made. Recall that Ari was a founder of "Freedom’s Watch", the wingnut organization run from the basement of the Bush White House to denounce each and every criticism of the conduct of the Iraq War as an act of treason and defeatism.
Indylib
@Brick Oven Bill:
Geez, you are an idjit. Do you by any fucking chance know who patrols the Strait of Hormuz 24/7/365 and has since the first Gulf War?
Let me give you a hint. They float on the water, carry nuclear fucking weapons, there’s a lot of them and they are not the Russian Navy.
Just how the hell do you think the Russians would get rid of the US Navy carrier groups in the Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz to take it over? A really large part of our Navy, at any given time in the last 15 years, is either on the way to the Gulf, in the Gulf, or leaving the Gulf. And pulling combat troops out of Iraq isn’t going to change that by much.
jcricket
Moreover, the ideas Obama and other Democrats are proposing have been tried in the real world, in many countries, and generally lead to positive things. Increased environmentalism, increased unionization, nationalized healthcare, increased regulation, etc. – we could do worse than following the lead of modern European or Asian countries.
In fact, we are doing worse.
trizzlor
I think the point of this bill was to make the Democrats understand how the Republicans feel – it’s merely a thought experiment: The Democrats propose a bunch of deficit spending on infrastructure and science/education – that’s their way of fixing a recession (and it ain’t new); so the Republicans propose a ton of deregulation and selling off natural resources – that’s their way. Thankfully, our side gets to make the decisions.
My favorite quote from just before the election was from someone who was born under Clinton and said "I’ve been a lifelong Democrat, now I get to decide if they deserve it". My only hope is that after Obama’s stimulus is implemented, we can come up with some consensus on weather it worked or not.
jcricket
Which will be undermined 40 years later by revisionist GOP types (think Amity Shlaes)… When you’re idiots, deeply dishonest, and only concerned with your own power, there’s nothing you won’t later recast as some win for your side.
Bubba
I’m late reading this but has anyone even thought of the time involved in opening up new areas to offshore drilling. First, the bidding process has to happen. Then, maybe, a couple of ships go out and do some geological survey. Then, maybe, they send a few drill ships out to punch a few exploratory holes. We might see some serious job creation in, who knows, maybe 2 to 5 years. That’s assuming that the oil companies want to spend the money. Shovel ready.
Comrade Stuck
@trizzlor:
The clouds will part and the sun will shine again.
Hyperion
speaking of clubbing baby seals, i saw a bumper sticker yesterday that was a take-off on those "i heart dogs", with a red heart graphic instead of the word. it said "i club seals", with a black club graphic instead of the word.
what demographic is that appealing to?
Amanda
It’s the Exxon Mobil stimulus package. Just what the doctor ordered!
Faux News
The mouth breathers at Free Republic.
Zuzu's Petals
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Snortle.