Secretary of State Clinton, today in Mexico:
“Our insatiable demand for illegal drugs fuels the drug trade,” she said, using unusually blunt language. “Our inability to prevent weapons from being illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the deaths of police officers, soldiers and civilians.”
So far, so good. An honest recognition of the problem. Next:
For instance, Mrs. Clinton said, the United States will help supply Mexican law enforcement officers with helicopters and night-vision goggles and other equipment to take on the cartels, which are armed to the teeth.
“We’ve got to figure out how to stop these bad guys,” she said. “These criminals are outgunning the law enforcement officials.”
American guns are part of the problem. Here are some bigger guns.
I guess everyone in DC managed to completely ignore that editorial from all the former heads of state whose countries we have helped to throw into chaos. If you are interested in some reading, head here.
Delia
I know. I know. There are not enough illegal substances yet. We should prohibit booze. Maybe that would help.
Oh wait . . .
bootlegger
Our War on Drugs has been such a success, you should copy our model!! What’s that? You’re doing that already? Well then, here’s a bunch of expensive shit so you can do it with some class!!
CapMidnight
Can’t we just send Chuck Norris?
TenguPhule
No, we need to make them drink liberally.
TenguPhule
Our foreign policy for the last 50 years in a nutshell.
valdivia
The fact that Zedillo and Gaviria both signed this is very telling. Zedillo was President of Mexico before FOX and very much part of the Mexican establishment politically, he is presently at Yale. Gaviria was President of Colombia in the 90s and suffered greatly at the hands of the cartels. But you know Doug, the US always knows what to do in Lat Am!
bootlegger
@CapMidnight: Gods yes, please send him!
El Cid
Venezuela often gets blamed for its role in drug trading, mainly because it has a leftist president.
Anyway, Chavez the other day complained about how Venezuela suffers by being in between the world’s biggest producer of narcotics (Colombia, which refuses to settle its civil war and whose right wing narco-paramilitaries make the criminal leftist guerrillas look like amateurs in the narco-trafficking department) and the world’s biggest consumer of narcotics, the U.S.
It ain’t small time producers landing submarines on Mexico’s southwest coast.
AhabTRuler
Yay, School of the Americas!
Tom G
As Lysander Spooner said, "Vices are not crimes".
Legalize it already !
Yes, ALL drugs.
Incertus
@Tom G: I can’t go that far, but we do need to focus a shitload more on treatment than we currently do, and things that are basically harmless (or at least no more harmful than currently legal stuff, like weed) should be decriminalized at the very least, and fully legalized at best.
valdivia
@AhabTRuler:
So true Ahab, but you need to go back in time a little more, see Monroe Doctrine and The Roosevelt Corollary. Or the Guatemalan Coup of 54.
DougJ
The time when we can be realistic about drug policy is years away. It’s a bit sad.
kormgar
I will never understand why drugs continue to be illegal or why politicians get so tumescent over the drug war.
I mean, I get why local and federal law enforcement bureaucracies love it…more war = more money and power, and I get why local government is on board…asset forfeiture = we get to steal whatever we want, and I even understand why some of the public generally favors it…drug war = cops stomping on dirty po’ folk.
I just don’t get how we got this far…this idiotic drug war has been going on longer than I have been alive and the social, economic, and constitutional costs have been increasing every single year. The last time I heard a good argument in favor of the drug war was in 1983 when folks still naively believed we could cut off the supply.
TenguPhule
Fuck no.
Ice, PCP, and Meth can stay banned forever.
AhabTRuler
@valdivia: Or the role of the US in the "founding" of Panama, or our good friend Smedly Butler’s experiences in Central America, or even the US’s role in the tawdry little history of the Falklands/Malivinas dispute.
There are so many lovely examples.
kormgar
@TenguPhule:
Why? Please justify your position.
I would argue that legalization of even the hardest drugs allows them to be regulated, their purity and quality controlled, with severe addicts enrolled in (probably mandatory) support programs (potentially funded via drug taxes).
Sure, it would be great if we could close our eyes and wish hard drugs away…but instead we live in the real world. Prohibition has failed even to restrict the supply. The only sensible goal is to minimize the societal harm caused by these drugs. Prohibition only serves to exacerbate the harm.
valdivia
@AhabTRuler:
great examples. and yes too many to pick from. The one that just galls me no end is the Guatemala one, still rankles.
AhabTRuler
I tend to favor decriminalization in these cases, which still allows for a penalty for possession & use, but removes from the criminal sphere, and places emphasis on social intervention.
Furthermore, trafficking and sale under such a scheme would remain punishable by imprisonment (although, again social intervention is favored for those that have not engaged in broadly criminal behavior).
Ella in NM
@TenguPhule:
Fuck no.
Ice, PCP, and Meth can stay banned forever.
I’m with Tengu, here. Legalizing a drug creates the defacto statement that it can be used safely. There’s a no safe level of use for these drugs, and a few others. And the ethics of the government regulating their use will take a long, long time to figure out.
The sad thing is, the narco war in Mexico is less about marijuana, which, used responsibly, is pretty much harmless. It’s really more about heroin and cocaine, both of which are not safe to turn into completely legally accessible drugs. The first could turn you into a junkie and the second give you fatal ventricular fibrillation with only one use.
We need to decriminalize use and possession of harmful drugs, increase research and development of treatment for addiction, legalize pot.
However, ya want to know a major reason it will never happen? A federal prosecuting attorney I am acquainted with tells me it’s because these arcane drug laws allow law enforcement to coerce people in criminal investigations to get them to cooperate, snitch, and/or testify against bigger fish.
AhabTRuler
@valdivia: Personally, anything having to do with Richard "Dick" Nixon, Kissinger, and US foreign policy in the Americas makes me want to spit. Operation Condor (including the murder, in Washington DC, or Orlando Letelier and Ronny Moffat) and Allende come to mind.
The only good thing about the Bush administration is that it gave me something new to harangue people with at parties. Now with the economic disaster, I have enough material to last me until I die.
LM
I thought this was an interesting part of last night’s presser–a shift in focus, at least, and maybe an outright slam on the "war" on drugs:
"Even as [President Calderón] is doing more to deal with the drug cartels sending drugs into the United States, we need to do more to make sure that illegal guns and cash aren’t flowing back to these cartels. That’s part of what’s financing their operations, that’s part of what’s arming them, that’s what makes them so dangerous. And this is something that we take very seriously and we’re going to continue to work on diligently in the months to come."
Jody
You can’t talk about guns in this country.
You bring them up anywhere, for any reason, and someone will stand up and start shrieking "SECOND AMENDMENT!!!!!one!!!!!" while farting the national anthem. Telling them to do something about the problem only gets them farting faster. It’s a pavlovian response at this point and it’s damn scary.
Just had to get that off my chest.
/is with Tengu on the drug thing.
cyntax
@TenguPhule:
I wonder how many people are deterred from taking these drugs because they’re illegal and how many people choose not to take them because of the very serious consequences to their health, families, careers, etc. The socio-economic backgrounds of the users probably play into that, so legalization might be more detrimental to some parts of our society as opposed to others.
smiley
Mexico is a mess. It’s an incredibly beautiful country. Protein has been in deficit there for centuries. That’s why in some places they eat bugs. Drugs grow easily in some places. Therefore, poor people grow drugs. Questions?
Nick
As an alcoholic/addict who has been a counselor in inner city drug programs for nearly a decade, here is my best effort at a solution:
Opiates, cocaine, methamphetamine, and similar drugs should be provided at no cost by the government with the requirement that those receiving them be required to undergo a several day detox period every 6 months.
Following this detox period addicts will be offered the opportunity for treatment. If they decline, see them in another 6 months.
We should also develop addict ghettos in which the addicts will be allowed to reside for so long as they continue to receive drugs. We will provide them with austere housing, second hand clothing, and rice and oats while they continue to use. This will diminish the need for criminal behavior, as all basic needs of the addicts will be met.
This will still cost us less compared to our current law enforcement and incarceration efforts.
This will have the salutory effect of allowing addicts to get a straight enough head so that when they have finally tired of getting high, they will have the ability to choose treatment.
It will also have the salutory effect of allowing some addicts simply to kill themselves, thus removing the problem.
This might seem a bit hard hearted, but from my experience the current paradigm of incarceration or treatment just produces tons of treatment resistant addicts. We addicts don’t recover until we’ve had enough–which usually means sick and tired of being sick and tired.
Ironically, the current paradigm has produced the nanny state which conservatives so often bemoan–police surveillance, arrest, threat of incarceration or incarceration at $35,000 a year an addict, treatment, repeat multiple times.
I’d also prohibit the advertising of alcohol and tobacco. Nothing like being an alcoholic in early recovery and having euphoric recall triggered by a fucking beer commercial.
douglass truth
The argument that heroin and cocaine should be illegal because they’re dangerous just doesn’t add up to the real world consequences of the criminalization. The money, the crime, the gangs, the corruption up to the highest levels of government – all these flow from the drugs being illegal. Illegal means high prices and high profits. If meth and coke and heroin were legal, obviously some people would abuse them. Is that not the case today? But arguably fewer would – at least if the stuff doesn’t make anyone money, there’d be no incentive to distribute.
The bottom line is that the cost to society of criminalizing any drug is far, far, far higher than the social cost of legalizing them. Again – some people would abuse these drugs; but it would be a social and medical problem instead of a police/army problem.
The last 50 years show that it is ab-so-lute-ly impossible to control the flow of illegal drugs. Why do we keep trying? Why do people insist on imagining that it’s actually possible?
AnneLaurie
Maybe next time Sackful O’Smug asks about "sacrifices" to placate the Economic Gods, Obama should announce that — to his great regret! — "we" are going to have to "sacrifice" the criminalization of marijuana, because we can’t afford to waste the millions of law-enforcement hours and hundreds of millions of dollars it costs to harass otherwise law-abiding users. Then the Secretary of Vaterland Security & Purity Enforcement (or whatever it’s called this week) can do an hour-long Powerpoint presentation on how we need all our black helicopters & SWAT teams to focus on the Larger Menace of "high value" substances and OMG Furrin Drug Lords… possibly with a side dish of "You know who snorts cocaine doncha? Thieving AIG BANKERS that’s who!eleventy-one!"
Anoniminous
@Tom G:
Props for knowing about Lysander Spooner.
Onward to the subject!
Legalize drugs: hard, soft, 80 grit, the whole shebang, and make ’em a Federal Government monopoly which is mandated to sell at a price that makes importation uneconomic.
It’s a win, win, win, win.
We knock off the narco squads south of the Rio Grande — and north of the Rio Grande for that matter.
We save the billions spent on the bogus War on Drugs.
It will eliminate the Federal budget deficit.
It will cause an epidemic of exploding heads amongst the Wingnut O’Sphere.
And, besides, we will get to enjoy the American Ad Council urging us to smoke pot for The Greater Good.
On a personal note, I’m addicted to tobacco and the cost of a pack of my addictive substance just went through the roof. The rest of you drug ingesting slackers need to PAY UP, dammitall.
cyntax
@Nick:
Interesting perpsective; thanks for the post.
But how will young guys ever learn that drinking Coors Light makes girls want to sleep with them?
valdivia
@AhabTRuler:
I hear you Ahab. And not to get into a too involved discussion but tough I too have nothing but rantings about Nixon and Kissinger’s policies in Latin America I save my real over-the-top rantings for my own fellow citizens in Chile and Argentina who made these things happen and who supported this (many many in the middle class). Saying that the coups in South America would not have happened without US involvement is to exonerate the very real hatred and local movement to unseat these govts. US involvement is to be seen in the bad light it deserves but the responsibility resides with the sectors of these societies who did it.
Nick
@TenguPhule:
Fuck no.
Ice, PCP, and Meth can stay banned forever.
——————————
You’re not going to stop people from using them. The best you can do is minimize the damage they do. Take out the profit motive, and let the addicts use until either they kill themselves or get ready to quit.
It takes meth/crack addicts about 18 months from first use until they burn through their resources and end up in treatment. Let them run their course and be there with treatment when they’ve had enough (or a wooden box if they never reach that point).
Andrew
What Nick said. I also think that we need to not only legalize drugs, but provide a low cost or free safe environment for people to use them. It would be a fraction of the monetary cost and an even smaller fraction of the cost in liberty than the current drug war entails.
Nick
The other thing you do is take school kids on tours of addict ghettos every couple years. Tell them during the tour
"Approximately 10% of you will end up living here. Of that 10%, maybe 5 addicts in 100 will learn to develop long term recovery.
In other words, kiddies, if you end up here, you will probably die here. Moreover, if you start using these drugs, you will almost certainly end up addicted to them.
And there’s nothing we can do to prevent those of you who are going to become addicts from becoming addicts. The purpose of these trips is to scare off those of you who might want to experiment a bit, and then get sucked into using one of these highly addictive drugs."
Persia
@Ella in NM:
Like alcohol, you mean? Our drug policy makes no sense. The ‘really bad drugs’ are banned along with the ‘really benign drugs’ and some of the nastiest shit is still perfectly legal.
John Cole
@Nick: There is al ot of conflicting evidence about fear appeals. I haven’t looked into the literature lately, but if memory serves correctly, one of the things that makes fear appeals less effective is if the situation seems distinctly out of the realm of possibility for the target.
kormgar
@Ella in NM:
There is also no safe level of tobacco use. Should we create a black market drug trade in tobacco too?
Anoniminous
Persia wrote:
Monosodium Glutamate for example.
Nick
Persia wrote:
"Like alcohol, you mean? Our drug policy makes no sense. The ‘really bad drugs’ are banned along with the ‘really benign drugs’ and some of the nastiest shit is still perfectly legal."
I tell people that if God came down and told me that someone I loved had to be addicted to one of three substances–alcohol, tobacco, or marijuana, I would choose marijuana addiction as by far the least harmful of the three.
It’s true that people will generally be more productive while addicted to tobacco than marijuana, but the physical effects of tobacco are pretty horrific.
Alcohol of course attacks every organ in the body, and eventually the alcoholic becomes completely incapacitated. Alcoholism is worse than opiate addiction, insofar as the physical effects on the body. Opiates of course are far more addictive.
Nick
John wrote:
"@Nick: There is al ot of conflicting evidence about fear appeals. I haven’t looked into the literature lately, but if memory serves correctly, one of the things that makes fear appeals less effective is if the situation seems distinctly out of the realm of possibility for the target."
I’ve never been a fan of the Reefer Madness approach to scaring people off. And if such an approach wouldn’t be effective, then of course I’d gladly drop that from the program.
My biggest concern with legalizing opiates comes from a history class wherein the prof said that the English devastated the Chinese countryside by promoting opium use. Therefore, to the extent we can dissuade people from using opiates, we should. The addiction is severe.
And unlike alcohol, methamphetamine and crack, the addiction from opiates is comparatively benign on a physical level. The physical degradation resulting from long term alcoholism, methamphetamine, and crack use acts as a natural brake on their use. Opiate addicts will continue using until they suffer pulmonary failure.
John S.
Um, I totally disagree.
I am a regular marijuana user, and unlike the tobacco users I work with I:
– Do not use on the job
– Do not take company time to use on the job
– Do not take company time to procure my drugs
– Do not prolong my sick time by using
Between the "5 minute" smoke breaks every hour, the quick trips to the convenience store when they run out and the extended time out for being sick (because they refuse to stop smoking even when they have respiratory infections), I would say I am a HELL OF A LOT more productive than the fucking cigarette smokers I work with. And presumably, I won’t be jacking up the insurance rates anytime soon with my emphysema or lung cancer.
So you can put that shit in your pipe and smoke it.
Nick
I am a marijuana addict who went to treatment for it when 28. When I’m using, I smoke bongs for breakfast and get stoned throughout the day. I’m fit for manual labor and that’s about it. I was a dishwasher with a college degree and four majors and honorable discharge at the end of that run.
When I quit using, I eventually went to law school, graduated with honors. While in law school, working full time, I stopped going to meetings, and eventually relapsed (after 12 years clean). Three years into the relapse, I started smoking pot again, and within 4 months was smoking as described in the first paragraph above. In addition, this last go round, my drinking increased to about 3/4 of a liter of booze a day, or the beer equivalent.
About a year after daily use of marijuana resumed, I was too drunk and stoned at 4 a.m. to make the 50 mile drive to do the third day of a trial I was doing. Rather than quit using, I told the Board of Professional Responsibility I’d rather quit practicing law, a unique position according to the Director.
I’m an addict, and not to be confused with those who can socially smoke marijuana. In my post above, I did not mean to confuse the two.
TenguPhule
Because legalization does not solve the problem of what the users will do under the influence and what they will do to get these drugs, legal or not when they can’t afford them either way normally.
TenguPhule
The problem is they tend to kill/rob other people to get their fix. They’ll sell themselves and their children for the next fix. And finally at the end they end up clogging the emergency rooms.
Legalization does *NOTHING* to solve this problem.
TenguPhule
If we wanted to do that, automatic death sentences for users would do the trick.
AhabTRuler
Oh, that’s your answer for everything.
TenguPhule
Yes, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. :P
Nic
TenguPhule wrote:
The problem is they tend to kill/rob other people to get their fix. They’ll sell themselves and their children for the next fix. And finally at the end they end up clogging the emergency rooms.
Legalization does NOTHING to solve this problem.
———————————-
If you’ll read my post more closely, you will see I anticipated this problem and suggested that the government provide as much crack, meth and opiates as addicts desire, thus obviating the need to rob other people for the price of a fix.
As for clogging emergency rooms–any increase in emergency room use will be more than compensated by the savings from shutting down the war on drugs. It costs about $35,000 a year to incarcerate an addict; about half of our prison population are addicts, and about 80% of crimes which land people in prison are committed while intoxicated.
Treat addiction as a mental illness rather than as some moral issue which requires condemnation and punishment.
Don’t invest a lot of money into dealing with the problem; addicts largely self-correct or die; simply give them treatment options when they are ready.
All in all, still much less expensive than the current paradigm.
kormgar
@TenguPhule@TenguPhule: :
Aw…now you’re just trolling, and not even doing a very good job of it. Come now, at least put some effort into it.
There is a mountain of evidence that the greatest societal damage done by drugs is the development of sophisticated black markets and the expanded criminal classes that they nurture. Don’t forget the corruption of law enforcement, the militarization of the same, and the vast expansion in incarceration rates.
So please, troll harder.
John S.
Well shit, Nick. That is by far the most harrowing tale of marijuana addiction I have ever heard. Come to think of it, it’s really the only tale of marijuana addiction I have ever heard. I don’t say that to make light of your experience, it’s just that I always thought marijuana addiction was a myth ginned up by the Ad Coucil.
I can definitely say that I have never even come close to any of that. I smoke several times a week, but it does not prevent me from doing my job (I’m an Art Director for an advertising agency). I’ve never had an experience where it prevented me from making an appointment or impaired my daily life in any way. I even quit for a year prior to conceiving my son, because I wanted to make sure that my little swimmers and their payload were in peak condition.
But fortunately, I have never really been predisposed to addiction. The mantra of "all things in moderation" has served me well throughout my life. I am terribly sorry that it has not worked out so well for you.
I thank you for the clarification, and apologize for getting a little pissy with you there. Especially my unfortunate quip about putting your comment in a pipe and smoking it. Having read your follow-up comment, that is in incredibly poor taste.
PaulB
Actually, it does. It reduces the cost of these drugs by an order of magnitude, thereby reducing the number of crimes these addicts have to commit to support their habit.
kormgar
@TenguPhule:
You’re kidding, right?
OK…when’s the last time you heard of an alcohol deal gone bad? OK…how about an alcoholic holding up a convenience store to get his fix?
I can only assume that you have not been exposed to the relevant studies on the matter, but alcohol is among the most addicting, dangerous, and impairing drugs known to mankind.
About the only thing that prohibition does is nurture a black market, which drives addicts underground, increases prices, and fuels lots and lots of violence and general lawlessness.
John S.
That would be in the 1920s – during Prohibition.
kormgar
@John S.:
It’s worth noting that essentially anything that results in pleasure (endorphin release, etc.) can become a mental addiction. Actual physical addiction is a bit trickier, of course, but the line can get pretty blurry. Now, marijuana doesn’t typically create a physical dependency (unlike alcohol, tobacco, heroin, etc) but it does happen on occasion.
The upshot is that anything that someone, somewhere, enjoys can potentially result in a catastrophic, life-altering addiction. Doesn’t really matter what it is, either. So the real question we need to ask is…should the government ban all pleasure and enjoyment from life because some poor sap is eventually going to abuse it and hurt themselves?
Nick
John S.:
I envy the shit out of those of you who can rock the ganj and still lead normal lives.
A bit more background-my grandmother and uncle hemorrhaged out their livers when I was a teenager. After drinking about a 12 pack a day the summer after graduating high school, I joined the Army. During basic training my body cleaned up, and realizing the dangers presented by my family background, I started what I later learned is called ‘marijuana maintenance.’ I used marijuana rather than go further into alcoholism. It eventually led me to depression and ultimately treatment.
Most people who use alcohol and marijuana do not become addicts. Moreover, we addicts generally avoid the company of those of you who don’t use compulsively. You remind us of the problem which we’d rather deny.
I do have friends who use it socially. Beats the shit out of me how they do it. I’ve got an on switch and an off switch, and no inbetween.
BTW, I also used to smoke two packs a day of Newports, which I was able to kick and stay off of at 31. The tobacco execs who lied should be rounded up and sent to Gitmo.
Delia
I live in an area where meth-driven property crime is a real problem. You can’t even buy Sudafed in Oregon anymore in order to keep it out of the hands of tweakers. It just might be a real advantage to let these people burn themselves out in a saner environment, let the state stow their children in a safe place, and let me buy Sudafed at the local store when I get the sniffles instead of trying to persuade out of state relatives to send me some.
Nick
Adding to Kormgar’s comments:
The physical addiction from marijuana doesn’t result in the sort of life threatening withdrawals like those from alcohol or opiates. Rather the physical addiction primarily manifests itself in difficulty sleeping. Really pretty minor compared to the emotional and psychological aspects of the addiction.
I just love getting stoned, and three times a week ain’t cutting it. Why stop there? (Insane, isn’t it?) Ditto just two martinis.
And I completely agree that the government shouldn’t make marijuana or alcohol illegal just because some of us refuse to use moderately. However, I do think we should prohibit the advertising and otherwise promotion of addictive chemicals (similarly Big Macs and primetime television–but one step at a time, as it were).
John S.
Absolutely – including activities that don’t include drugs, like sex.
Generally speaking, no. Which is why we would be better off not creating Prohibition-like environments and instead focus on treatment programs for addicts like Nick. I don’t think a stint in jail for possession of marijuana would have improved his situation in any way.
Incertus
@kormgar:
Pretty much every time I read a story about a drunk driver killing someone after he or she left a bar. Or doesn’t that count?
AhabTRuler
@Incertus: Yeah, but no one is arguing for the legalization of driving under the influence or vehicular manslaughter.
db
Well said, Sir John Cole… now, I recommend that we send you down to the border to man an A-1 Abrams and give you orders to blow the hell out of any illegal jackrabbits you spy coming across that line.
USA! USA! USA!
kormgar
@Incertus:
That’s not the sort of thing that "deal gone bad" is generally taken to refer to, that’s an individual who was illegally driving under the influence.
For instance, if someone smokes a ton of meth and then crashes their car into a classroom full of kids it wouldn’t be called a "meth deal gone bad." Would it?
TenguPhule
I can only assume you’re trying to be funny comparing alcohol to Ice, Meth or PCP.
The addiction rate is not even close to comparable.
TenguPhule
Easier access to supplies for dealers != cheaper prices.
People can understand this about oil and bank loans, why do they think the rules change for drugs?
TenguPhule
So we are to reward bad behavior then? Shall we then provide free booze to all? Free smokes too?
Then what?
kormgar
@TenguPhule:
OK, I really must know…where are you getting your information? Alcohol, Tobacco, and Meth are similarly addictive.
Oh, and so you don’t embarrass yourself further, you should know that Ice and Meth are both street names for methamphetamine. They are not different drugs.
kormgar
@TenguPhule:
Sorry, forgot to include my link. Here’s a 2007 study that compared dependency rates for various compounds.
http://pdfserve.informaworld.com/689989_770849120_902978782.pdf
The Raven
Dear gods. The Mexican police are appallingly corrupt–some of those weapons will go to the drug cartels, and what then?
BTW, former Seattle police chief Norm Stamper is running a pro-legalization blog over the the now entirely electronic Seattle P-I.
Krawk!
DFS
See, here’s a thought I had the other day. You want to give the domestic economy a shot in the arm? Make it legal to grow, legal to possess, legal to sell, and legal to consume. Just maintain restrictions on import and export. You can get as high as you want, as long as you buy American.
EEH
@John S.:
My brother was also a bona-fide pot addict. He tried all different sorts of drugs but the pot usage was the only one he couldn’t shake and he ended up going into rehab for it. He went on to successfully complete his college degree and holds a very responsible position at where he works and has recently finished his MBA. And yet, we always worry that someday he will relapse and piss away all that he has worked for. Like Nick we have alcoholism in our family background which no doubt predisposed my brother towards addiction in the first place. We know that my brother was using from an early age. Getting pot was not a problem because, ironically, we grew up right on the Mexican border in AZ.
Keith
So basically, the strategy is to make a bigger, badder version of the Zetas. That’s friggin’ brilliant.
Chuck Butcher
hmmm, 21 years clean and sober with a fairly wide experience in not being so leads me to believe that people can manage to become addicted to just about anything. Meth and alcohol are the two most similarly destructive to the body drugs, opiates and cocoas are pretty harmless in controled dosages. Quitting cigarettes is making me about nuts.
Lets see, consider Prohibition:
Vast increase in police powers
Vast increase in official corruption
Restriction of civil liberties
Construction of organized crime on broad basis
Crime warfare
Social acceptance of scofflaw
Increase in prison population
sounds pretty similar, so pass some more laws, hell pass some more laws about guns since there’s only about 4 or 5 pretty serious felonies involved in gun running. Oh hell yeah, I love it when my lefty friends decide a little more restriction of civil liberties is called for.
We might, maybe, be able to do some pretty progressive things if we can keep the Dems together, but if you really want to lose some elections in a serious way, try on guns again. Be just exactly as stupid as we all know you can be and mess about with one of the piece of the BOR that people can put their hands on or look at – try to wrap your head around that.
Hillary says we share the blame and Rachel claps hands – the adults are in charge. Nope, we traded 3rd graders in for 5th graders. More laws is her answer – still run by children. Guns are not left or right, that’s about authoritarianism and I don’t happen to like it. I’m quite left and you’ll have a very bad time running that one at me.
Nick
Tenguphule wrote in response to my earlier post:
So we are to reward bad behavior then? Shall we then provide free booze to all? Free smokes too?
————————–
First, I was responding to the problem (which you raised) of addicts robbing other people in order to get their fix. Addicts rarely rob other people for alcohol or tobacco; crack, meth and opiates are responsible for the great bulk of crimes related to drug acquisition.
Second, we are not rewarding ‘bad behavior’. We are looking for the least costly and most effective ways to deal with destructive behavior.
It’s sort of like the choices we had with Iraq–we could continue to spend a couple billion a year enforcing sanctions with great effect, or we could spend $3 trillion to $5 trillion blowing the place up and killing a lot of people (See "Fiasco" by Thomas Ricks).
I find it interesting that you think government should be in the business of deciding which behaviors should be encouraged or discouraged. Very liberal of you; unfortunately you need to sort out what works, what doesn’t, and how to implement policies with the least restrictive effect on personal liberty.
ksmiami
End the war on Pot (make it like tobacco / alcohol) and legalize gay marriage. These things alone would provide the best economic stimulus evah. Plus the site of wingnutz spontaneously combusting could be an epic pay per view show.
Comrade Dread
Why start paying attention to them now? We haven’t bothered to do so… ever really. Uncle Sam knows best.
And what he knows is that if you want to stop drugs, you engage in a 50+ year war at a cost of billions, turn your local police officers into gung-ho weekend warriors that kick down the door of folk’s homes at 3 am on the rumor of drugs from a paid informant and shoot every motherfucker in the place and the dogs too.
If violence declines, you know you’re winning. If violence increases, you’re still winning because the cartels are getting desperate. And if you happen to waste some innocents along the way, well, it’s all worth it if it means some suburban teen has to spend an extra 20 minutes trying to find some weed.
God bless America.
slaney black
Oh fer Chrissake. The last thing we need is to start making gun control noises right now. Yeah, great! Let’s just push the rural working class back into the hands of the far right. F’ing perfect.
PS anyone notice since we got that genioust border fence up, Mexico has gone into the toilet and the border has got much less safe?
guest omen
you know, we borrow money from mexico. i’m guessing that’s part of the reason for the humility.