Personally, I don’t care very much about Michelle Obama one way or the other, though she certainly seems like a nice person. But the punditocracy thinks that the popularity of the first lady is uber-important in general. Here’s Halperin two years ago:
In the twenty-year history of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton(?) American politics, here are the five biggest stories respresenting the greatest political achievements, from greatest to less great:
1. George W. Bush’s fundraising, 1999-2000.
2. The large governor of a small Southern state (a/k/a “Bill Clinton”) defeating an incumbent Republican president, 1992.
3. George W. Bush’s consolidation of the Republican base, 1999-2004.
4. Bill Clinton’s surviving impeachment and thriving in his last two years in office, 1998-2000.
5. Laura Bush’s enduring popularity, 1999-present.
Stefan
In the twenty-year history of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton(?) American politics, here are the five biggest stories respresenting the greatest political achievements, from greatest to less great: 1. George W. Bush’s fundraising, 1999-2000.
What???? I mean, really, what????????????????????
I mean, I know Bush was a man singularly lacking in achievement other than the fact that he got elected, but the fact that a wealthy businessman son of a wealthy former president with many wealthy friends was able to convince his wealthy friends to give him money is a greater political achievement than anything President Clinton did? My god, Halperin has his head so far up his ass it’s sticking out of his mouth.
Stefan
I mean, I know Bush was a man singularly lacking in achievement other than the fact that he got elected,
Correction, that should be "I mean, I know Bush was a man singularly lacking in achievement other than the fact that he got appointed by the Supreme Court…."
Gus
What the…? Oh yeah, Mark Halperin is an assclown.
** Atanarjuat **
Maybe, just maybe, because Michelle Obama can address groups of people without a teleprompter present?
This could explain why she’s currently more popular than her speech-stammering husband.
Ms. Obama is certainly certainly proving the validity of "the better half" expression. Good for her.
I wonder if her husband will soon give speeches behind her in order to deflect from his stuttering speechifying when the Magic Teleprompter is absent.
-A
camchuck
I wish I could say that’s one of the 5 stupidest Halperin posts in the last several years. But I can’t.
joe from Lowell
Wow. Laura Bush? That’s the fifth biggest story – that a first lady remained popular?
‘Kay.
Keith
All of those achievements are great news…for John McCain!
You’re welcome.
cleek
how is Laura Bush "popular" ? she’s famous, by marriage, and she’s not exactly offensive. but "popular" ?
HitlerWorshippingPuppyKicker
With whom?
joe from Lowell
The People Magazine-ish media love-fest over Michelle Obama would be a completely boring non-story for anyone thinking seriously about politics, except for one thing:
The Republicans ran a PR campaign to try to make her unpopular for months, and now she’s like Oprah. Ha ha.
Vladimir Illich Gingrich
Dude, that wasn’t a campaign, that was an IPO.
PaminBB
The incessant toadying about Laura B being "popular" is and was a reaction to Hilary’s actual popularity based on her actions as first lady, and validated by her successful Senate campaign. While I have some sympathy towards Laura for putting up with W and the whole Bush family, she knew what she was getting into. Her 8 years as first lady were marked by no visible achievements that I am aware of, again excepting whatever role she has had in covering up for W.
Jeff Eaton
Simple answer: talking about the first lady is something that feels political, but doesn’t require addressing complex topics. It’s an easy fallback for pundits who embarrass themselves when asked to discuss topics of substance.
guest omen
using laura to prop up the idiot doesn’t even make sense. how does george get any credit for anything (or nothing) laura did? just goes to show you how empty and lacking his legacy is.
c u n d gulag
Laura was popular in the way that all Stepford Wives are popular.
liberal
@Stefan:
Surely you jest. The amount of damage Bush was able to wreak on the US is a pretty amazing achievement.
joe from Lowell
I think the "teleprompter" line will work out about as well as the Michelle Obama Whitey Tape thing.
When people saw Michelle Obama talk about her husband and her family and her country, people loved her, and the efforts to demonize her just look stupid.
When people see Barack Obama at a town hall event or a press conference, people are impressed by him, and the efforts to portray him as a bad speaker just look stupid.
Who ya gonna believe, your uncle who used to talk about the Swift Boat vets, or your lyin’ eyes?
Davis X. Machina
What did the Abbé de Sieyes say when they asked him what he did during the revolution — "I survived"?
Pretty much The Laura Bush Experience.
liberal
@PaminBB:
I don’t have any sympathy. She was a willing participant in the effort to get that moral monster (s)elected to the most powerful office in the world.
Janus Daniels
"George W. Bush’s fundraising, 1999-2000.
Dude, that wasn’t a campaign, that was an IPO."
Thank you, Vladimir Illich Gingrich.
Instant classic.
Enjoy,
J
PS also appreciating that everyone avoids feeding trolls, ** Atanarjuat ** or otherwise.
Brick Oven Bill
I think Michelle is very politically accomplished. This is a woman who got a $300,000/yr job created for her, that subsequently disappeared in her absence. And who was able to double her compensation when her husband became a federal Senator, without open criticism at the time. This political track record is pretty impressive in my book, even for Chicago.
I would go so far as to call her a Maverick.
schrodinger's cat
DougJ,
Any idea about what just happened in Binghamton, NY?
wasabi gasp
I always felt Laura Bush’s popularity was based around a ‘she chose not to put down her old blind three-legged dog who shits all over the house and barks like a fucking moron’ empathy.
NonyNony
@Stefan:
Well, Bush did break fundraising records that year, and I seem to recall him being the one who first trashed the idea of public financing and deciding to go it alone. If you’re the type of reporter who equates "horserace" with "politics" it probably was a big story.
In fact, let’s break down Halperin’s list of "achievements":
Horserace.
Horserace.
I’m not sure what he means by this exactly, beyond the fact that Bush was the first candidate since Reagan to get the base excited about his candidacy. But if that’s all he means, then that makes it about the horserace.
Almost actual politics. Politics centered around Villager psychodrama, and all about partisan gamesmanship for the next eventual horserace, that is.
Politics as reported by People Magazine.
So in his list of "Top 5 political achievements" he notes two stories that are entirely about the horserace, two stories that are only important in the context of the horserace, and one fluff story that had its best reporting done by Us magazine.
No mention of things people out here might actually consider, what-do-you-call-it – "political achievements". You know, stuff that actually advances an agenda held by the group in question? Things like welfare reform, free trade agreements, gun control issues, abortion issues, socialized medicine, "faith-based initiatives", tax cuts, Supreme Court appointments, environmental standards or any other actual accomplishments by one side or the other?
Why it’s almost as if the ends of the political process are unimportant and only the fluff counts. And folks like Halperin wonder why we mock them and think they’re useless.
gnomedad
@** Atanarjuat **:
And maybe, just maybe, that’s because she is NOT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES and mainly speaks in the kinds of situations in which her husband doesn’t use a teleprompter either.
DougJ
Solid spoofery. That made me laugh.
DougJ
I’m waiting for more details before I comment.
gypsy howell
Lou Dobbs made a wish. And it came true.
eemom
I like Michelle Obama very much as a woman, but I have no interest in any commentary of any kind in which she is referenced as "First Lady." That institution is an anachronistic joke which I refuse to dignify with any kind of attention.
valdivia
@schrodinger’s cat:
apparently the man shot an immigrant center, upwards of 15 people dead. could be he is vietnamese. cnn has a lot of coverage.
Dennis-SGMM
@Brick Oven Bill:
But not before you wrote this post.
Calouste
@wasabi gasp:
I didn’t know Dubya had three legs.
That he shits all over the house (as in the house of the USA) and barks like a fucking moron is common knowledge.
gnomedad
Deleted; Calouste beat me to it.
Lev
Laura Bush is popular inasmuch as most people on a poll say they are favorably disposed toward her. That doesn’t take into account intensity of feeling. I suspect most people are favorably disposed to the Quaker Oats dude, doesn’t mean they want to elect him president (though I suspect were he a real Quaker he wouldn’t stand a chance–not strong enough on foreign policy).
It’s definitely popular for pundits to talk about because it’s an easy topic to discuss. Hell, that’s why there’s such a focus on the horse race, none about policy. We all know that. I suspect it’s also something to do with the conservatism of Beltway culture and the converse of their famous discomfort women in authoritative roles, which of course is a glorification in women handling traditional roles. Of course, Michelle’s no stay-at-home mom, but she’s made it clear that she’s not going to be a Hillary-style FLOTUS. I suspect that suits the Villagers fine.
Leelee for Obama
Remember when Mrs. Bush had the Poets to her Book Festival, and disinvited the Poets who had pieces against the Iraq War? Well, they held their own gathering in New Hampshire at Walden, IIRC. One woman had a poem using Jack and the Beanstalk, showing the Giant’swife as complicit. I wish I could find it but the final lines are burned in my brain:
"she baked the bread, she ate the crumbs."
That’s Laura Bush to me.
Woodrowfan
I didn’t think Laura Bush was so much popular as she was ignored. I can’t remember a first lady since Pat Nixon that had so little public visibility…
AnneLaurie
For The Win!
Dubya’s (s)election ‘return to conservative values’ will be cited by future historians as the globally toxic political bubble that enabled the war-on-terra/"housing"/financial bubbles which are now threatening to destroy the whole world. He campaigned, more or less openly, on the promise that he’d keep the serfs quiet for a few more years while his handlers’ cronies finished looting the American treasury. And for those looters, the Cheney years were the best of times. I only wish I could believe that the next Obama years would be the worst…
schrodinger's cat
@valdivia
Thanks for the info.
guest omen
actual joe the dumber quote:
** Atanarjuat **
I’m stunned by this news. What a nightmare.
The shooting in Binghamton is incredibly tragic, and moreso by the fact that it could have been so easily avoided.
Had New York state allowed a Concealed Carry Weapon permit, someone in that building could have taken out the shooter before the body count reached 12, that’s for damn sure.
Instead, the shooter had a grand old turkey shoot and at least 12 families in NY have been irreversibly shattered with loss today. Why do I get the sickening feeling that Governor Paterson will tighten gun restrictions even further in response?
Goddamnit.
-A
P.S. Edit: apologies for the off-topic comment. I’m just so aghast at what just what happened upstate.
WereBear
Actually, when I bring up Laura Bush, the first response a man has is a blank look, and the first response a woman has is a twinge of feeling sorry for her.
But as pointed out above, she signed up and was amply recompensed.
Wonder if she really grasped the whole Babs-the-MIL dynamic, though…
Cyrus
Wow. It’s not like this is Halperin’s largest crime against the English language or rational thought, but is Bill Clinton’s weight really relevant?
@Lev:
Meh, Quakers are people too, and as such can be inconsistent and unprincipled at times. After all, we have already had a Quaker president, and that didn’t work out so well.
canuckistani
The awesome thing about Michelle Obama – at least the politically relevant awesome thing – is that she drives the wingnuts into a frothing rage. The harder they try to tear her down, the more popular she gets until even the Queen herself breaks protocol to express her admiration.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@Vladimir Illich Gingrich: Dude, that wasn’t a campaign, that was an IPO.
That was a FTW.
guest omen
@liberal:
apparently, he didn’t follow the pottery barn rule.
big woo
@** Atanarjuat **:
The asterisks are kind of lame. You should use xXAtanarjuatXx if you want to be taken srsly.
valdivia
head.hits.desk.
the solution to the shooting–more guns! right at a rec center for immigrants. what idiocy. there was no guard there, and apparently the guy came with a plan to kill people (from what I have been hearing on the tv–he locked the back exit with his car).
guest omen
@canuckistani:
even the Queen herself breaks protocol to express her admiration.
cheeky mr. omen asked me why is the queen grabbing michelle’s arse?
who knew the queen was a perv?
Tonal Crow
Can Teh Stupid go thermonuclear? Just askin’, ‘cuz that list burns.
John S.
Look, I know you’re a spoof – and a poor one at that – but this whole Hollywood notion of the heroic vigilante is nonsense. Except for the scene in Boogie Nights where the guy holding up the donut shop gets shot by the vigilante, the vigilante gets shot by the robber, and the vigilante shoots the clerk in the head as he goes down. That seems about right.
Everyone carrying a gun =/= safe.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@guest omen: Joe the Dumber: “I don’t know everything about everything,”
s/every/any/g
Fixed.
Leelee for Obama
@valdivia:
This is always the default argument-some hero with a side-arm could’ve saved people’s lives. After Virginia Tech, the right-wing students at college campuses started lobbying for rescinding the no guns on campus rules using this argument.
They love to say guns don’t kill peple, people kill people. But people with guns kill more people. I’d rather face a nut-case with a baseball bat or some other non-firearm. The range gives a person a better shot of getting the f___ out of the way. Plus, it’s way tougher to kill more than one at a time. Strength in numbers starts to mean something.
Tsulagi
@Vladimir Illich Gingrich:
Very good. And like a lot of IPOs, that company soared before spectacularly crashing. Because the company was really an empty shell all along.
Fucking thing is the original investors got their huge returns years ago while we get the losses.
gwangung
In a controlled environment (i.e., your own home, your loved ones are with you and you know the intruder means evil), guns are one thing. In a chaotic environment like your typical shooting, guns are another thing. For pete’s sake, even trained AND REHEARSED professionals like police have problems. And some numbnuts are stupid enough to think untrained, unrehearsed, unprepared amateurs are an unalloyed good.
Dennis-SGMM
…the death toll would have been in the dozens. A gun in no way imparts to its owner the knowledge of how or when to use it – or even how to hit what you’re aiming at. I’m a gun owner and a combat veteran. The idea of issuing concealed carry permits to anyone who wants one gives me the shakes.
NonWonderDog
Don’t turn on Fox News. Please.
They just blamed the shooting on "being out of work and being left of center." Based on nothing at all.
The Moar You Know
@John S.: I tried to explain this to some family members earlier today – bear in mind I’m the only one that actually owns guns – and they refused to believe me.
Refused to believe me, the only guy with firearms experience.
People want Superman to drop from the skies and save them from the baddies. That need to believe that trumps reality. It doesn’t happen that way in real life and never will.
Throw in a couple of kids getting plugged by accident as well as some guy walking by and another guy all the way across the street and you’d be getting somewhere close to accurate.
Tonal Crow
@** Atanarjuat **:
And, had Kentucky allowed concealed carry before 12/1/1997, someone could have taken out the Paducah shooter before he killed 3 and injured 5. Oh, wait…Kentucky enacted concealed carry on 10/1/1996.
That said, I think the 2nd Amendment protects our right to possess firearms…to deter governmental tyranny.
joe from Lowell
It’s for damn sure that someone in that social services office would have been carrying a firearm if New York State changed its laws?
It’s for damn sure that he would have killed the attacker.
It’s for damn sure he wouldn’t have killed anyone else.
And it’s for damn sure that, in the years prior to that case, the mystery vigilante who would have been carrying the gun, as well as everyone else in New York state who would have been carrying a gun, wouldn’t have killed anyone.
Huh. All this time, I’ve been using the phrase "damn sure" wrong.
The Moar You Know
@Dennis-SGMM: Me too. I’m a lifelong gun owner, California resident, and I don’t think gun laws are anywhere NEAR being strict enough.
I want what you have to have for a car (another deadly weapon) – license, registration, and insurance. I want the criteria to get those three things to be fairly strict and I want it to cost enough money that people will take it seriously. I also want the penalties for being in posession of a firearm without all of those three items to be draconian as hell.
guest omen
@** Atanarjuat **:
in order to deflect from his stuttering speechifying when the Magic Teleprompter is absent.
glibbness is a mark of corruption. see blago. or romney for that matter.
joe from Lowell
Apparently, though, using the tragic circumstance in Binghamton to score a cheap, conservative partisan point against gun control, like you did, was just fine.
joe from Lowell
.
I know this through the power of my gut!
Zifnab
@Tonal Crow:
And if everyone had taken mandatory Kickboxing classes, like I’ve been lobbying in support of for years, they would have all totally Kung Fu’d to DEATH! FLYING FOOT TACKLE TECHNIQUE!
Alternately, if the state of New York had categorically banned all forms of firearms, the shooting would have never taken place at all.
That’s how it works. Laws magically make everything better. Stupid big government liberals should know that by now.
Gus
Perhaps based on the fact that the shooter apparently wasn’t white.
The Moar You Know
@** Atanarjuat **:
A. You are full of shit. There’s nothing "partisan" about what he said, it’s the fucking facts.
B. That is way the fuck out of line. Even for you. I’ve never urged this for any poster here, but I think it’s time for you to meet the banhammer.
Davis X. Machina
Not strictly true. Based on ratings.
Tonal Crow
@joe from Lowell:
Of course. "Conversatives" need all the "affirmative action" they can get, since they cannot compete in a meritocracy.
Just Some Fuckhead
Haha. Yeah, the wingnut John Wayne fantasy is a powerful thing, able to stop tragedies in hindsight. In actual practice you pee yourself and then accidentally shoot into the ground. I’ve seen Andy Griffith. I know how you Barneys operate.
Tonal Crow
@Davis X. Machina: For the win!
Zifnab
Why do conservatives have the desire to name call? The shooter is cowardly. Liberals are evil. Michael Moore is fat. Does this somehow make the commentator look better? Braver? By posting this on a message board at the back end of the internet, have we successfully swung back at the enemy and landed a telling blow? Does name calling make conservatives win?
I was never entirely clear how that worked.
I mean, from what I understand, there is nothing more heroic in conservative culture than picking up a firearm and blowing away a bunch of terrible bad people. I would have thought Atanarjuat would be applauding this guy for expressing boldness and daring by embracing his 2nd Amendment Rights.
Maybe I’m missing something.
John S.
@joe from Lowell:
Thanks for saving me the trouble.
Anyway, troll-swatting aside, the point that most people here (including gun owners) seem to understand is that in a chaotic situation like a spree shooting, the LAST thing needed is even more people with guns.
That’s precisely the point. Real life is not the same as the movies or the television show 24.
Library Grape
The uppity America-hating angry negro lady in the White House is pretty popular right now?
People are obviously falling victim to a concerted terrorist plot by Hamas, radical Black Nationalists, Bill Ayers and ACORN. More Republican Smear Machine(TM) Epic FAIL! Will Halperin take note!?
Libby
Well, I think Michelle Obama rocks and she makes a difference. She’s knocking them out in Yurp. International relations matter and the two of them have created a lot of good will on this tour.
asiangrrlMN
I like Michelle Obama and her husband. I think they are both intelligent, compassionate human beings who will do a great deal for our country. I don’t understand why President Obama’s stutter is looked at as a mark of stupidity. By the way, the Prez is pretty damn popular himself. Other heads of states (such as India) have asked him for his autograph. President Obama can complete a coherent sentence, which is more than I can say for his predecessor.
As for the shooter: guns are the great equalizers. They can make anyone, even a coward, a killer. Guns don’t kill people–BULLETS kill people. So, like Chris Rock says, let’s charge $5,000 a bullet and make people really think before pulling the trigger. It’s much harder to do a drive-by stabbing, if you think about it.
Oh, and since most of the spree killers are white males (almost all male, for sure), maybe we should just let the women have the guns. Funny how no one seems to mention that little fact. I am sick of the guns don’t kill people bullshit. A gun is intended to kill. It was created for that purpose. In fact, there is no other use for it. I don’t feel safe knowing there are people with concealed weapons around me because most of them are not the people who I would want carrying.
The Moar You Know
True. Under even the best circumstances you’re dealing with a guy who is walking in with a loaded, cocked and ready-to-use firearm. Your firearm, which is not as powerful or accurate as his, is either under your coat, in a hip holster, or in an ankle holster. It will take you a couple of seconds to get it out and a couple of more to cock and aim it.
After those four or five seconds, you will be ready to shoot it, and by then the fifth or sixth bullet to hit you should just about have finished passing through your brain, leaving quite a mess for the janitorial staff to clean up later.
Libby
Meanwhile, the Binghamton thing is just awful. Word from Molly Ivors who lives there is there was three people involved. Shooter is dead but the other two are arrested.
Early reports though, so no one knows for sure. I’ll be interested in what motivated this insanity.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Zifnab:
It’s entirely plausible that the heroic shooter thought someone in his immediate vicinity was carrying a concealed weapon and so had to act unilaterally and preemptively to prevent an attack.
asiangrrlMN
@joe from Lowell:
Thanks, joe from Lowell. This immediately occurred to me. Then again, the right has always been particularly good at projecting.
Your comment about the troll using the situation to attack gun control advocates. I’m still getting a hang of this system.
Michael D.
I like Michelle Obama a lot. But then, I have a lot of black friends. In fact, Black people love me.
Tonal Crow
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Fixed. (Now, can someone fix the blog software?)
Libby
I’m a gun rights person and I really hate when the idiots come out of the woodwork claiming it wouldn’t have happened if everybody was armed. It makes sensible gun owners look stupid.
Situation like that, more guns would likely kill more people in the confusion and cross fire.
John S.
So, a coordinated attack by three people, armed with either high-powered assault rifles and/or the element of surprise could have been foiled by a bunch of bystanders with concealed weapons?
Is anyone here (besides the goat-fucker) seriously venturing forth that argument?
NonWonderDog
I just love the "everyone has guns" scenario, myself.
You’re at work, and you hear gunshots. In response, you draw your gun and go stalking down the hallways, looking for someone with a gun.
Then ten other people draw their guns and go stalking down the hallways, looking for people who have guns.
What could possibly go wrong?
AnneLaurie
Mr. Cole, this is your blog and you’re free to do what you want with it. That being said, I think the Atanarjuat spoof/troll deserves a time-out for the obscenity it just committed, especially since I don’t want to spend the next week reading other commenters’ attempts to "reason" with the indefensible.
joe from Lowell
If this guy really was Vietnamese and did this, I seriously doubt he was left of center.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@Libby: I’m a gun rights person and I really hate when the idiots come out of the woodwork claiming it wouldn’t have happened if everybody was armed. It makes sensible gun owners look stupid.
Amen. They’re like the PETA compared to the sane vegetarians of the firearm world.
** Atanarjuat **
@The Moar You Know:
Why assume that the citizen legally carrying his or her concealed weapon would be the first to get shot? If there were any justice, there would be more than one responsible person carrying a concealed weapon in any given situation where people gather for official reasons, such as the immigration center in question.
So even if, by your own biased estimate, the shooter manages to pick off someone who is a CCW-bearing gun owner as soon as he walks in the door, others who also have a CCW permit could rally to the defense and perforate the lunatic like a postage stamp before any more loss of life ensues.
Oh, and as for your "banhammer" suggestion, sure, everyone else is free to contribute off-topic comments on the tragic shooting in Binghamton except for those views you disagree with. How incredibly open-minded of you, Moray. Way to go!
-A
geg6
@PaminBB:
I’m curious; has anyone here read the book "American Wife?" It is purportedly a thinly disguised "imagining" of the life of a First Lady who is almost an exact duplicate of Laura Bush. The author, Curtis Sittenfeld, took "The Perfect Wife: The Life and Choices of Laura Bush" as her inspiration.
I just finished it and, while I find this type of woman infuriating and ultimately pretty damn stupid, it’s fascinating to read it and compare it to the woman we all saw propping up the Shrub for the last 8 years. I recommend it, if only for the train wreck factor. I actually think Mrs. Bush’s mindset and that of so many of these self-loathing and shallow GOP wives (and many Dem wives, too, I must admit) is captured pretty realistically and it gave me some insight into creatures with whom I share XX chromosomes but really cannot fathom how they think.
guest omen
@Lev:
Of course, Michelle’s no stay-at-home mom, but she’s made it clear that she’s not going to be a Hillary-style FLOTUS. I suspect that suits the Villagers fine.
that’s too bad, because michelle would be awesome championing policy like roselyn carter did with helping to pass mental health legislation. roselyn was an activist first lady and yet that didn’t create a firestorm. you know why? because she wasn’t high-handed about it like hillary. you can accomplish a lot with the right tone.
gwangung
All us brown people look alike and act alike to them….
Betsy
@NonWonderDog:
Ha. That image FTW.
@asiangrrlMN:
You’ll notice that most of the defenders of racial profiling aren’t clamoring to treat men as a group that deserves such scrutiny, despite the fact that they commit the vast majority of violent crime.
I wonder why that is?
Leelee for Obama
@NonWonderDog:
Absolutely perfect!
@AnneLaurie:
I agree, just an indefensible mess, even if a spoof, and even if a parrot.
Just Some Fuckhead
Shut up that’s why.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
Once again, the spoof troll stinks up a perfectly good thread, and then gets a good feeding for his efforts. Ignore, plz.
Lars
Fake Analjaunt,
Pitifully bad attempt at being a parody troll. Really, just stop trying because you suck at it. Why do people think they are so clever trying to spoof wingnuts?
** Atanarjuat **
@John S.:
Indeed, because you were unable to refute my valid points. You really owe Joe for that one.
-A
chuck
Conservative "thought" process:
"Someone got shot? MOAR GUNZ!"
Library Grape
Since John is so enamored of interviews with the Villagers, check this out.
In a headline more appropros of POLITICO, CNN runs an interview with Fareed Zakaria as "Obama disappoints as world leader".
Does the interview address whether Obama "disappoints"? Of course not. But it DOES ask these super-important questions:
CNN, the most feckless name in news.
Betsy
@Just Some Fuckhead: Sorry sir! I forgot!
guest omen
@Betsy:
don’t worrry, they all will soon be sterile.
Libby
Here’s the rest of what I’ve heard so far. The shooting was apparently planned and organized. The shooter parked his car right up against the back door to block the exit.
About 40 or 50 people in the building. It’s considered a federal building. It’s an immigration center of some kind that offers help with paperwork and various learning services. They’re saying the shooter at least was Asian. The shooter walked into the building with a high powered rifle in his hand.
Lot of people hid in the basement. Some hid in a closet. A secretary was shot in the stomach. Four confirmed dead. Unknown number wounded.
This is all from local news reports. No word on motive.
Chuck Butcher
Oh good Binghamton brings out stupid points all around and atanut does his level best to shit on gun owners.
I’m a competitive shooter of long guns and handguns, I burn a lot of powder and I have no particular confidence I’d stop such a thing in progress. As for comparing civilians and cops, that’s plainly silly, most cops don’t shoot as much in a year as I do in a month, but that means what?
HyperIon
@Just Some Fuckhead: good one. it beats out Davis X. Machina’s ratings joke. not as pithy but truly hi-grade snark.
Dennis-SGMM
Because women gave birth to them.
Just Some Fuckhead
@HyperIon: I think we’re gonna get along real well.
Mike in NC
Attended a seminar on world events at the Defense Intelligence Agency years ago, during the Yugoslav civil war. The DIA analyst quipped that "Yugoslavia is the NRA’s idea of a perfect society: everyone is armed to the teeth". Today that claim probably could go to Iraq, or the US.
anonevent
@Chuck Butcher: It means you’re being rational. Stop it!! You can’t be part of the conversation if you’re actually going to think about it.
geg6
@** Atanarjuat **:
I’d love to see some proof of your hypothesis here. Show me exactly how it works that a bunch of people carrying concealed weapons would, ipso facto, have saved any lives at all. What makes your scenario more likely than my scenario (which is a bunch of your typical gun nuts with concealed weapons in that center all pulling them out and shooting, in a panic, at anything that moves because they aren’t trained in dealing with such situations)?
Oh, and I’m not anti-gun. I’m anti-letting-any-asshole-who-wants-one-have-one-and-carry-it-anywhere-he/she-wants. There’s a difference.
Calouste
So AtanaAssHat, concealed carry would have saved those 80 and 90-year olds from being shot last week in North Carolina?
I can really see someone who has to stay in a nursing home being able to defend themselves.
Tonal Crow
@geg6: And further, he needs to support the idea that concealed carry wouldn’t increase overall fatalities by easing the deadly escalation of ordinary arguments.
Brick Oven Bill
Private gun owners, especially the enthusiasts who are the type to get the training and licenses to carry, are typically much more proficient than police officers when it comes to gun safety and marksmanship. I have it on good account (an NRA member/policeman who teaches the safety classes) that the majority of gun wounds suffered by policemen are self-inflicted accidents. It often happens when a right-handed officer tries to exit his vehicle while drawing the pistol.
Police qualify every 6 months, just as I did in the service. I was not a good shot back then and not at all proficient with anything other than shooting at stationary paper targets from a full upright stance.
A proficient man with a weapon could potentially have taken up a defensive position, and ended the engagement. I don’t think that anyone can argue that things worked out well for the unarmed group of victims. As someone else pointed out this was a federal building (gun free zone), just like Virginia Tech, and I believe the Nebraska mall.
SpotWeld
You know… it’s possible that the two people walked out in cuffs were private citizens (or off duty cops/military?) who did happen to be carrying.
In a situation like this is cops are going to isolate and contain and then ask questions. (Generally to stop a bad situation from getting worse)
That said, I have no freaking idea what happened, and I’m saying nothing else until the facts come out.
** Atanarjuat **
@geg6:
You want to see proof of my hypothesis, and yet you’re asking me a loaded question in bad faith? Sorry, doesn’t work that way.
geg6, why do you assume that CCW-bearing gun owners are "typical gun nuts," and why do you think they’d panic in a shooting spree such as the tragedy that just occurred in Binghamton?
Assuredly, the abrupt din gunfire would not alarm most gun owners, considering that they’re probably very familiar with the sound.
-A
Brachiator
Did you pay attention at all to the reaction that Mrs Obama received when she visited the girl’s school in London?
No matter how the establishment or the punditocracy tries, they cannot control who people choose to be inspirred by, and who people choose to love. A monarch can command respect, but not affection. Diana reinforced this lesson with the British Royal Family.
Quite a few of the girls present wore Muslim head dress. If even a few of them are inspired by Mrs Obama to stand up against the vile insanity that tries to keep them down, Mrs Obama will have accomplished as much as all the foreign ministers, diplomats and heads of state who make official policy.
Because while Mrs Obama is seeking to inspire young women the Taliban demonstrate manliness by publically flogging a woman for "illicit behavior," and even among the supposedly sophisticated and enlightened, the ceremonies of female oppression are observed (Women Erased in Israel, Flogged in Pakistan and Restricted in Afghanistan).
The punditocracy had created their story templates comparing Mrs Obama to Jackie Kennedy, and figured that they only needed to fill in the color of the dress that she wore on any particular day. But those squealing school girls, and the more restrained, but no less admirable women at the cancer center that the First Lady visited, quietly blew up the conventional wisdom.
Mrs Obama started out on the path previously marked by Hillary Clinton and even (bless her) Laura Bush. But she is veering into Eleanor Roosevelt territory as she puts her own stamp on what it means to be First Lady.
Just Some Fuckhead
If what the middle east just went through is the birthpangs of democracy, the occasional mass shooting here in the US is just blue balls.
The Moar You Know
@** Atanarjuat **: We’re done talking, buddy. The next move is up to Mr. Cole.
Hypatia
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Oh, an honest man!
SpotWeld
B.O.B.
Shut up already. "A proficient man with a weapon…"
would have gotten out of there, called for backup and then evaluated the situation before trying anything else.
Note the stupidy of your NRA buddy’s "statistic"
Cops, because of thier training with firearms will keep the gun pointed away from themsevles as much as possible, meaning when they do accidentily hit themsleves it is increadibly less likely it will be fatal.
That instructor probably wasn’t in the habit of talking to dead people so his example sufferce from self-selction (or in this case de-selction) bias.
valdivia
OT–via Think Progress, McCain’s classy outreach to hispanics on the immigration issue.
Cat Lady
OT, but Josh Marshall links to a Politico article about the meeting between the bankers and Obama. His comment to the bankers, which should be carved in stone somewhere:
Obama, for the win.
Laura W
@Brachiator: Ahhhh, what a lovely thread palate cleanser. Thank you.
Martin
Atanarjuat arguing for conceal carry permits for non-citizens. Mohamad Atta would have loved one of those. Good plan. I don’t see how that could backfire.
HyperIon
@Brachiator:
In the South, the usage is "god bless her/him". And to me it always seems to have a tinge of "poor old idiot". I recently returned from 2 weeks in Fla and heard the phrase several times, which your post put me in mind of. Do you agree with my analysis or do you sincerely mean "bless her"? I’m trying to figure out if I am projecting….it gives me the creeps when I hear my family members use this language.
The Moar You Know
@Brick Oven Bill: Christ, not you too. Look. I fall under your first category. My grandfather falls under the second – he’s the one who taught me how to shoot. What you are saying is just flat-out not the case.
A proficient man with his pistol taking on this assailant (who was toting an AK-47) simply would have been the first to die. There is nothing in a building that you can hide behind that will stop most pistol rounds, never mind a rifle round.
For some fascinating reading on the subject of pistol and rifle penetration through modern building materials, I recommend to everyone The Box Of Truth, which is the best kind of science, direct experimentation.
Library Grape
@Cat Lady: Referring to people of color as “you people!” in the Strom Thurmond room. How appropriate!
JL
@NonWonderDog: I never turn on Fox News.
Brick Oven Bill
There was nowhere to go Spotweld, the exit had been blocked. It is pretty much a good practice to never point a gun at yourself, in the case that you take up the sport.
The account I relayed is from someone who would know. Budgets are strained and training, as I previously mentioned, consists of 6-month qualifications on paper targets. When the adrenalin is pumping and a lightly-trained man is trying to exit a vehicle at the same he reaches for his weapon, it is a different situation. I have felt this adrenalin once, and it changes your world.
This is implying nothing bad about police officers, other than they should be funded for more time at the range. I had this same training, and when I had to carry, was not at all comfortable with the pistol.
Brachiator
@HyperIon:
I’m from Texas, I did not intend any tinge of "poor old idiot" with respect to Laura Bush, and I don’t believe in any deity.
Mrs Bush, for example, deserves some respect for gestures such as this:
Mrs Bush was speaking out on issues such as AIDS awareness even as some lesser conservatives were clinging to the delusion that AIDS was a plague visited on gays for their supposed sins.
eemom
@Cat Lady:
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I’ll love you till I die, Barack Obama.
[swoon]
Now get out of my way and let me at ’em with my pitchfork….
guest omen
@Brachiator:
why is it i couldn’t catch this event in long form? i didn’t see cspan cover it.
/shakes fist at brian lamb
that was just lovely. comparisions to jackie kennedy i find disturbing. because 1) usually that’s cited as an excuse to compare fashion sense. 2) because gore vidal claims jackie never did anything to help ordinary people while she was first lady.
JL
@guest omen: There’s a web site that a friend told me about called Michelle Obama Watch and they have a video about her appearance at the girl’s school. Just click here
SpotWeld
B.O.B. No, just.. no.
You say There was nowhere to go Spotweld, the exit had been blocked And this is why you would be gunned down next to a first floor window. Please shut up.
You say It is pretty much a good practice to never point a gun at yourself, in the case that you take up the sport... this is an attempt to be clever? Just.. don’t. You have no right to presume and your attempt to do so only damms you more.
Cops and Military train and drill correct proceedure. It becomes reflex and therefor when an accident does happen it’s much less likely to be fatal. Read that a few more times, you obviously didn’t at first.
I have felt this adrenalin once, and it changes your world. Which is why you drill, for those specific situations. Someone who is not drilled for that is not someone who should be firing into an unknown situation. And it is the preference of people who have drilled to get out, get backup and access.
I’m done B.O.B.
If you’re a spoof/parody whatever, the joke has fallen flat. Accept the loss on this one and move on.
Brick Oven Bill
Sigh. I was referring to this comment from you Spotweld, I was probably making sport of it:
“Cops, because of thier training with firearms will keep the gun pointed away from themsevles as much as possible…”
I am ex-military and have carried a pistol in the line of duty, so that is my qualification to comment on the subject on firearms qualification. The person to which I referred has a similar qualification, but with current experience.
Martin
I live in an area with a pretty large Persian/Afghan/Pakistani/Iraqi population (our city puts up Nowruz banners every year on the street lamps, much as they do for other major holidays) and understand that more than a few women who wear head scarves are wearing them much as men who wear yamikas or those who choose to wear a cross necklace. In fact, there are some here that go out of their way to wear them to try and dilute the impression it gives, so some days they wear it and some days not.
Adrienne
And that’s how it usually goes. Typically, the gun enthusiasts who take the time to learn these things typically get their training from former military or law enforcement guys. So, his entire foundation is a load of, well, you know, shit.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Brick Oven Bill: BOB, I think you may be more qualified to do the shooting, not to stop the shooter, ifyaknowwhatImean.
Mark S.
@NonyNony:
I completely agree with that assessment. I tried to come up with my own Top 5 (in chronological order, and nothing after 2007, when Halperin wrote this):
1. Bush I’s coalition against Saddam.
2. The GOP retaking Congress after 40 odd years.
3. The surplus of the 90’s (mostly Clinton, but also Congress)
4. Clinton fending off impeachment (ok, so I agree with one of Halperin’s)
5. Lawrence v. Texas (the sodomy case)
geg6
Attawhatever…I know why it would be the typical gun nut for several reasons. First, I grew up with guns, went target shooting at least once a month until age 16, grew up in a gun family in gun happy Western PA, and took gun safety classes numerous times at our local shooting range situated less than a mile from my home. I know guns and gun nuts intimately. Second, among my law enforcement friends, I count several municipal and county cops, three state troopers, three FBI agents, and a Secret Service agent in charge. I won’t even try to add up the military and vets in my family,my friends, and my students (for whom I am their contact for veterans benefits). My next door neighbor while growing up was a boy my age who is an international shooting champion. And lastly, EVERYONE in my part of the world owns guns and uses them and loudly proclaims their ignorance about them but few get proper training or take proper precautions even if they take a class for a Boy Scout or Girl Scout badge. Based on what I know about CCW is the ones who want it most are the ignorant assholes. All of the law enforcement I know, the competitive shooters, and the well educated every person who enjoys or uses guns professionally agrees with my take on this. They are why I think this way about CCW.
Brick Oven Bill
A Rare Double Sigh.
Bruce
@Martin:
true Martin…it’s quite a different thing to claim a woman has no freedom of choice in a civil society with laws, than claiming the same thing in a non-civil society where rule of law is a myth. Also, alot of those women wore chador, which are as you put it "head-scarfs", not to be mixed up with burkas.
JackieBinAZ
It’s the same kind of bravado that makes them identify with a fictional character like John Galt and worship a militant Jesus.
Chuck Butcher
Damn. Once a person is competent with a particular firearm the results come down to an ability to keep one’s head and shoot deliberately. That is a character issue not a job description. Practice can improve proficiency, practice under stress can help reduce stress effects – can not does.
It is not the least uncommon for cops to loose off 26 rounds and get one or two hits, it is rushed and stressed shooting and it has serious effects. The level of ignorance in the American public is astounding, they do not know what the weapons are nor do they know what they do nor do they know the effects.
Threads like this promptly assume elements of stupidity that the participants would mock in any other.