This seems positive:
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said Tuesday that the discussion over whether to legalize and tax marijuana for recreational use in California would benefit from a large-scale study, including international case comparisons, to show the possible impact of such a change.
Pressure to mend the state’s fractured budget along with growing public support of marijuana legalization moved him to support such a study, Mr. Schwarzenegger said.
“I think it’s time for a debate,” he said. “I think all of those ideas of creating extra revenues; I’m always for an open debate on it. And I think we ought to study very carefully what other countries are doing that have legalized marijuana and other drugs. What effect did it have on those countries?”
I was watching Real Time With Bill Maher on the DVR last night, and Barney Frank and Fareed Zakaria were the guests. Apparently, Frank is introducing legislation to decriminalize marijuana, which shocked me, but according to the google, this is in fact the case. This strikes me as particularly good news.
One other thing- Zakaria, someone I genuinely think is interesting and who has a great show, really, really pissed me off during that show. While Maher and Frank were discussing marijuana, Zakaria kept snickering and rolling his eyes and acting like it was a joke, and basically giving the ‘Oh you crazy dopers’ looks at the audience, and it was infuriating. It was also when I realized how wrong I was in March when President Obama dismissed the marijuana question that was freeped to the top of his online town hall. I still think it was a stupid thing to do (freeping the poll), but I understand now why so many of you were pissed at Obama. We’re never going to get anywhere if everyone keeps treating this as a joke, and millions of people locked up for nothing just isn’t funny.
I get it now.
Comrade Jake
OT (sorry Cole), but Cramer was just on Good Morning America, telling Meredith that the economy is stabilizing, our bank nationalization nightmare is over, and that the TARP program isn’t going to turn out to be that bad.
In other words, we’re fucked.
gex
Locked up isn’t even the half of it. It’s the no-knock raids where cops shoot innocent people and get away with it, innocent people shoot unidentified cops and don’t get away with it, and dogs really get the worst of it.
DBrown
The drug war was first and always about racism – blacks have been and still are the ones who most often serve time and for longer terms than poor whites. But it does allow repub-a-thugs to make bank running a private system of jails that not only rob these ill people of life but the public a ton of money (@$$$ per felon) when treatment is less costly and less racist.
Ted the Slacker
You know how the GOP have routinely argued the case for “starving the beast”? Regarding Arnie’s comments… is it fair to say the beast now has the munchies?
aimai
John,
This is why people keep coming back to the site. Because you are so willing to be honest with yourself and your readers. I was surprised at your response to the situation with Obama and the marijuana question because I, too, thought that he had missed a good inflection point to handle an important subject–the drug war–by being overly dismissive.
I think that decriminalizing marijuana is part of the overall liberal agenda–the real one–which includes (in a sense) decriminalizing *liberalism* itself after its downfall under conservativism since the 60’s. I support decriminalizing marijuana not because I’m a user but because I think people who use it for medical purposes are being unfairly targeted and hurt. But I also support decriminalization because for god’s sake the hippies and free love and dope weren’t the worst thing to happen to america in the last fifty years. In fact, there was much good in (some) aspects of that world. At least as much as in repressed, uptight, sexist, alcohol and tobacco abuse.
I’d like to see all our politicians react to the kind of sniggering, hippy baiting, hysteria of the right by just saying “oh, grow the fuck up.” Only in this way can we move beyond the culture wars approach to public policy.
aimai
Joey Maloney
Wouldn’t it be great if some past president, say, I don’t know, Nixon, had commissioned a report like that almost 40 years ago? And wouldn’t it be great if the report recommended decriminalization and suggested that prohibition was unConstitutional on its face?
Yeah, that would really be great.
The Grand Panjandrum
@DBrown:
Privatizing prisons isn’t a Republicans-only club. In the state of New Mexico it was pushed through a Democratic legislature and the chief lobbyist for the private prisons was a former State Senate Majority Leader (and a Democrat). Of course state Republicans loved the idea and wholly bought into the idea but they did shave off enough Democrats to pass it easily through a Democratic majority legislature.
Decriminalizing pot is a good first step and could be quite a boon for some much needed tax revenues. Will the proposed legislation expunge criminals records as well?
geg6
And thus, the reason this site is the best on the Intertoobz.
Awesom0
The only purpose of this post is to say how happy I am to be currently living in Switzerland where I can legally possess small amounts of marijuana.
As soon as I am out of work, I will head down to Lake Geneva, bust open a book and smoke me a nice joint in the park. All without stigma or fear of prosecution. Better yet, I can legally grow a few small plants without fear of a military style assault team rampaging through my house in the middle of the night.
FNWA
Glenzilla gave a presentation at the Cato Institute, which Time picked up, about the effects of decriminalization in Portugal. According to Glen it’s working out well.
jon
It’s truly infuriating that a drug that can be cheaply grown, helps many, and rarely ruins lives in any way unrelated to its illegality is treated as if it is the worst thing on earth. It’s a potential cash crop we’ve locked our farmers out of, plus it doesn’t require many pesticides and grows quickly enough to be used in anti-erosion efforts. It can help with migraines without killing the liver as does Tylenol, it eases stress, and it helps others with more serious issues.
The only thing the anti-drug people have left is the fact that many of the users are losers. So what? I say. Not everyone is going to cure cancer, hold meaningful jobs, have rich and rewarding lives, stop listening to reggae, have a healthy diet, or cease to use the word “dude” to refer to anyone over the age of six (who aren’t are referred to as “little dude”).
Legality won’t change much other than the fact that we won’t have as many idiots with guns going after idiots with guns getting stopped by idiots with guns chasing after the money associated with this illegal product. I don’t care which group of idiots with guns is supposed to be on my side since I just want people who want to smoke some weed to not risk jail, prison, or death over something that should be so unimportant as to not involve the police.
Hunter Gathers
As a full time stoner, the last thing in the world that I want is Obama pushing for legalization. On what plane of existence is the first black president pushing for legalized pot a good idea? He may be one heck of a tight rope walker, but there is no way in hell he could ever pull it off. Or to put it more bluntly (huh, huh, blunt): How stoned are you? He shouldn’t touch this with a ten foot pole. He has much bigger fish to fry.
Let the states decide. It will happen sooner than you think. Anyone who lives in Massachusetts (or any of the other states that have de-criminalized less than one ounce) should give their insight into this matter. From what I understand, the police don’t even bother fucking with it anymore.
Besides, even in the rural area I live in, for the most part the cops really don’t give a shit unless you are stupid about it. For example: driving around while burning a doob is really fucking stupid. You’re begging to get busted. Keep it in your house, keep it to yourself, and for God’s sake STFU about it when you are out in public. The idiots (mostly under the age of 25) make the rest of us look bad.
Most of the people whom I have known that have gotten arrested for it were either acting fucking retarded, or were ratted out. That’s the nature of the game. Don’t like the rules, then don’t fucking play.
Dennis-SGMM
@Joey Maloney:
Yeah, but that report reached the “wrong” conclusions so, instead of a rational drug policy Nixon gave us Operation Intercept.
gex
@jon: People who use it are losers? Who the hell are you to judge? That is the CLAIM drug warriors make in order to help keep it illegal. I know reading Sullivan can be maddening, but the Cannabis Closet pieces show you just how many non losers smoke. I mean, the last 3 presidents smoked weed.
WTF?
gex
@Hunter Gathers:
While I agree that driving stoned is not good at all, I think that openness is going to be what changes attitudes. Just like the gay thing. We’re closer to having serious discussions about our marijuana policy precisely because people are willing to discuss their use.
Awesom0
I run a department at a large, very respected international organization out here in Geneva and I smoke nearly every day. I don’t fancy myself a loser – at least by cliched stoner metrics.
Then again, you know us NGO people; we’re just a bunch of hippies in dress pants…
snoey
There is no excuse for the tone, but on substance Obama left a lot of wiggle room. All he said was that legalization wouldn’t be a huge boost to the economy. This leaves it open for him to say that legalization is a good idea for many other reasons.
Sarcastro
Like Hunter up there I’m a full-time, long-time head and I also wasn’t particularly disappointed with Obama’s response to the question.
I kind of read it as code for “wait till my second term you whacked out maniacs”.
Hunter Gathers
@gex:
Being open about it will push the debate in the right direction. The problem with being open about it is you never know who will try to rat you out, for nothing more than the feeling of self-satisfaction.
The stories I hear about people that are sent to do hard time are tragic, but do you realize how much pot you have to get busted with to risk time in the federal pen? Hint : A LOT. And most of the peeps who do hard time are there because they were busted for slinging, usually within a school zone (1000 yards or so within a school).
I have been popped twice. In Kentucky and Oklahoma. Neither of which are what you would call ‘progressive’ states. Both times it was for less than half an ounce, and both times I walked into the courthouse, plead guilty, paid my fine ($400 both times) and went home. I stayed out of trouble for 6 months, and the arrests were expunged from my record. I realize the risk involved, and plan accordingly. Keep it under a certain amount, and you risk no jail time.
DougJ
You’re totally right that keeping millions of people in jail for nothing is not funny. I wish other people would see that point as well.
monkeyboy
I think the “loser perspective” on dope smokers comes from people would be losers even without smoking dope.
If you know a group of say 5 people who are stupid to begin with – their being stoned amps up their stupidity.
However for fringe group people such as Tea Baggers, I don’t know if being stoned would make any difference.
Graeme
John, I am glad you finally see it. You wouldn’t get the same reaction by saying you wanted to have a couple good craft beers. It’s the same thing.
I can’t stand it when people are so juvenile as to pretend people who smoke marijuana are uniformly juvenile or lazy.
I am sick of the Cheech and Chong stereotypes!
John H. Farr
Legalize it and we’d have instant prison reform. With hundreds of thousands turned out of jail, there’d be plenty of room (and corrections budgets) for real criminals.
The real sadness has always seemed to be that it’s so easy to grow, is such a beautiful plant, and anyone who wanted to could have all he wanted — if it were legal… All that law enforcement time and energy WASTED FOR DECADES, all those lives ruined, is such a fucking tragedy. On top of all the other “crimes” that make no sense and the truly obscene crimes committed by the government as a whole that go forever unpunished, it’s a wonder the Creator hasn’t smitten the whole U.S.A. shooting match to hell and back already.
This shouldn’t even be debated. Just legalize it and move on.
Hunter Gathers
@monkeyboy:
It would mellow them out a bit. And the tea would be used properly. It’s great for cottonmouth.
Zifnab
@Awesom0: Just remember to vote Pirate Party out there in the next election cycle.
@The Grand Panjandrum:
The official Republican platform back in the day was that privatization saves money. No one really asked how this was going to happen, but fuck if we didn’t try it anyway.
Will
I’m an occasional smoker and I’m gainfully employed in the public sector. I used to be a cops reporter, though, and that experience makes me more than a little irritated at the “keep it on the downlow and shut up about it” attitude.
While the majority of those busted are people “being stupid”, there are a steady stream of folks who end up in jail just because of bad luck. There was a case in my neck of the woods a short while back of a retired couple who were arrested because their burglar alarm went off and the responding deputy found marijuana plants in their basement.
There’s a good chance that couple may go to prison and lose their house over it. Neither had a record before the bust.
Lots of low-key smokers are in jail because of a bit of bad luck.
fromer
John:
More than good on you for making a thoughtful change in your position. Intellectual honesty is unfortunately still a refreshing thing to encounter, so a big thank you for displaying yours.
Hunter Gathers
@Will:
Their mistake was more than one plant. In most states, a single plant is a misdemeanor. More than one makes it look like you deal. And is a felony.
And both times I was popped it was bad luck. I wish the laws were different, but they aren’t.
schrodinger's cat
I think Fareed Zakaria is bit over-rated, granted he is much more insightful than the average beltway pundit,given the quality of the average beltway pundit it is not too hard. I don’t find his observations all that profound, he has interesting guests but most interviews are yawn inducing, all said and done he hews quite close to the conventional wisdom.
**ducks and hides anticipating the brickbats coming her way**
Krista
That sounds absolutely lovely. I wish we could do that here — a friend of mine had a father who was dying of cancer, and he was in considerable pain. The mother, a sweet, innocent lady, was desperate and decided to try to get him some weed in order to relieve some of his pain. Picture a gracious, sheltered 60-something lady wandering the seedy part of town looking to score a tiny bag of weed to help her dying husband. She was scared out of her wits, but pressed on. Were our laws like those in Switzerland, she could have had a plant right in her house and not had to go through that ordeal.
Will
@Hunter Gathers
Never done it myself, but my understanding of marijuana cultivation is that it’s pretty difficult to grow with just one plant. You don’t know the sex of the plant until well within the flowering phase and, since males do not produce the buds that people smoke, you need to grow several and then weed out the males.
It’s also worth noting that any cultivation at all – even one plant – is considered product with intent to sell in many states, including mine. One plant may be a misdemeanor in your state, but it gets you tried as a dealer in mine.
The entire rationale behind X amount equals user and X.1 amount equals dealer is pretty screwed up to begin with. In my state, any amount spread out over multiple containers is an automatic possession with intent to sell charge.
D0n Camillo
The problem with that is, if it’s still illegal at the federal level, you can still have the DEA and all sorts of other fun characters on your ass. It happened in California where people with prescriptions from their doctors were consuming marijuana in accordance with state law and were still busted by the feds. While that is less likely to happen under Obama, it is still a possibility until we enact sane legislation at a national level.
Hunter Gathers
@D0n Camillo: Holder changed it, according to this report.
As it applies to medical marijuana laws, anyway.
Hunter Gathers
@Will: In Alaska, you can grow up to 24 plants. I’d move up there, but I hear it’s like the Road Warrior with snow. That and the crazy govenor lady.
KaliCali
RE: Needing more than one plant:
Not true unless you are growing from seed. Most experienced growers start with female clones from known genetics, unless they are breeding or looking for a special phenotype of a particular strain (many crosses are not stabilized and the resulting seeds often give many different phenotypic expressions of the gene mix.) Clone a female, you have another female, and there are also feminized seeds out there…so you don’t really HAVE to grow out multiple plants to ensure a female. (Feminized seeds are made by stressing a female plant to the point that it goes hermaphroditic and pollenates itself, yielding all female seeds…only drawback is the resulting plants from seed can be more sensitive to going hermie under stress)
I am a Prop 215 compliant patient in Calif, and used to run one plant when I lived elsewhere for security/legal reasons. I quickly found out that I could produce up to a pound of dried buds per plant, every 3-4 months…plenty enough for my personal medical use needs. So these days, having moved to a legal med state, I still only run one plant even though I can legally have 6 mature plants or 12 immature.
Home growing is super easy. I use a small, simple hydroponic setup that is all contained within a 20″x30″x70″ wardrobe cabinet in my garage. End up using about 600 kwH over the course of a grow.
Hunter Gathers
@KaliCali: I have had an interest in trying that process out in the near future. The risk involved in the place that I live now isn’t worth it, but I am curious about the start up cost. I hear the light bulb is the most expensive piece of equipment. Also, how do you control the smell while giving the plant adequate ventilation?
KaliCali
HunterGatherer:
This probably isn’t the venue to get into specifics on growing. But a quick answer, my entire set-up including everything from lamp to fertilizers to fan to pH meter cost $700. All the equipment is re-used on every grow cycle so I only need to get more fertilizer and pH adjuster each cycle…about $10 worth total.
I’d recommend the forums as icmag.com as an excellent resource on everything related to cannabis growing.
You can even see pictures of my current grow from build out to current in there on this thread where I am keeping a sort of journal/tutorial on the grow (different user name there, “elcap”):
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=117307
good luck and be safe.
Hunter Gathers
@KaliCali: Thanks.
Martin
Barney is introducing it?
Prepare for the ‘gay agenda’ attack and the attempt to tie the two together. The Grand Old Retards are going to try and use this to bolster their anti-gay marriage message.
Hunter Gathers
@Martin: New Meme: Pot turns you gay.
rumpole
“. It was also when I realized how wrong I was in March when President Obama dismissed the marijuana question that was freeped to the top of his online town hall. I still think it was a stupid thing to do (freeping the poll), but I understand now why so many of you were pissed at Obama. We’re never going to get anywhere if everyone keeps treating this as a joke, and millions of people locked up for nothing just isn’t funny.
I get it now.”
And that’s why I read this blog every day.
And why Fred Hiatt is a wanker.
baldheadeddork
I totally agree that our drug laws are FUBAR and the “war on drugs” has become a bizarre cross of Orwell and Heller. But legalizing pot raises some sticky issues of its own.
I’m specifically thinking of the problem of driving impaired on pot. Yes, lawmakers would write a pot equivalent of the open container laws that would make it a crime to smoke while driving, but if someone gets baked at home and then gets behind the wheel, how do you prove the person is illegally impaired?
This is not a trivial issue. There is no reliable and quick non-invasive test for marijuana intoxication. Do you want to carve out an exception to the Fourth Amendment and allow the police to compel a blood or urine test? Even if you do want to go down this road, being tested would require being taken to a police station or hospital to collect the sample, and then you would be held until the results came back.
If we don’t give up a big chunk of our Fourth Amendment protection, I’m afraid we’ll wind up with something similar to what happens today when prescription drug abusers are caught driving under the influence. My wife’s ex is a pillhead and he’s been pulled over literally dozens of times for impaired and wreckless driving. He’s wrecked every car he’s owned for the last ten years, most of them repeatedly until they could not be driven anymore. It’s a miracle he hasn’t injured or killed someone.
If he was an alcoholic with that record he’d probably be in prison after his fifth arrest. But he’s only been arrested for DUI in four of those thirty-plus stops and convicted just twice because the police can’t compel a blood or urine test to prove he is impaired. If you’re charged without test results any decent lawyer can get acquitted. Because the drug is legally prescribed, proving he is using it illegally would require a much more difficult investigation on that end.
No kidding, my wife used to get calls from cops that had pulled him over to come pick him up, because he was too high to drive – but they didn’t arrest him because they didn’t have probable cause for the test that he was abusing a legally-prescribed drug, or enough evidence to arrest him for illegally obtaining the drug.
I ride a motorcycle, and the traffic laws for killing someone are already a joke. A congressman with a record of speeding violations kills a motorcyclist while driving 20mph over the limit. He did all of three months in jail and got his license back while still on probation. Last week some dumb bitch painting her fucking nails while driving killed a rider. If she gets six months, I’ll be amazed.
If we legalize pot without a way to enforce impaired driving laws, we will put a lot of high drivers on the street and there will be damn little for them to be worried about until they kill someone, and then you have to hope there is enough probable cause to get a warrant for a blood test. Until we find a quick, non-invasive test for marijuana intoxication that can be administered in the field, legalizing pot is trading one bad policy for another.
HyperIon
@schrodinger’s cat:
i agree completely.
he’s smart and he’s not white so that makes him different from most pundits BUT he is a Villager IMO.
his foreign policy views are a bit more palatable than his domestic ideas.
this just shows how desperate we are for input from anyone who is not a certified asshole.
HyperIon
I am not worried about marijuana smokers driving while stoned. This is just NOT a serious problem IMO.
Will
@baldheadeddork
Driving is an issue and I’m not a big supporter of the “pot makes you a safer driver” crowd. There’s a lot of literature on drug-dependent learning that suggests that skills learned under the influence are not as sharp sober and vice versa. Driving is really complex and being stoned adds an extra element to this.
On the other hand, this is also true for any number of legally prescribed painkillers, anti-depressants and other medications that alter perception and reaction times. Add to this cell phones, elderly and sick drivers, stupid people and the perpetually angry and you can’t help but come to the conclusion that there are a lot of people driving who shouldn’t be. As someone who both drives and bikes on the street, I’ve come to realize that the safest bet is to assume that everyone around you is dangerous.
JK
Zakaria is one of the very few thoughtful and serious pundits out there, which makes me all the more disappointed in his reaction to the discussion about marijuana.
Obama’s handling of the question was infuriating. Exhibiting such flippancy was totally inappropriate.
I’m not a marijuana user, but I was hoping Obama had the vision or guts to nudge the nation in the direction of thinking outside the box concerning the war on drugs.
Will
Zakaria would be considered an average student in any graduate-level course on politics or history, but that’s about it. He earned a lot of his reputation for being a “reasonable” conservative who wasn’t a complete war cheerleader back in the day, but he’s a shallow thinker. It helps that, at least for a media celebrity, he’s attractive.
As someone who went to graduate school at a not particularly notable university, I’m always amazed at the low level of knowledge and intellect that rises to become our “public intellectuals” these days. Serious academics, writers and artists simply don’t get a national spotlight anymore. Those slots are reserved for political operatives and former journalists turned pundits.
This wasn’t always true. As recently as the 1970s, our society’s leading thinkers were frequent and often entertaining guests on mainstream TV and written media. I don’t know why they were exiled, but it certainly wasn’t because they were boring.
KaliCali
RE: Driving/DUI.
This is always brought up, but frankly it’s not a big issue. Think about it…what did they do before breath-a-lizers for alcohol? Field sobriety test, that’s what. Walk the line, stand on one foot..same thing they do for suspect drunks before doing the “blow in the tube” routine.
baldheadeddork
@HyperIon:
It’s not a serious problem now because just having marijuana on your breath is evidence of a crime. Get pulled over with pot on your breath and any evidence of impairment like slurred responses or dilated pupils, and you’re going to jail for being under the influence of a controlled substance. Legalization takes that away.
If you make any mild recreational drug legal, make it more readily available, and market it (which is sure to follow), you have to rationally expect a rise in the number of people who will use the drug. I think you’d have to be a little delusional to expect people to show the same restraint they do when they smoke pot today.
Prohibition didn’t stamp out alcohol use in the US, but it did reduce it by about 50% per capita and public intoxication – including drunk driving – fell at a much higher rate. When prohibition was lifted, those indicators returned to the pre-prohibition levels.
Point is, the behavior that marijuana smokers use today will not be the same behavior that follows the repeal of marijuana prohibition. Driving while high on pot isn’t a problem now, but without a way to enforce impairment laws, it is very likely that it will be a problem.
baldheadeddork
@KaliCali:
I think you’re off on your history. Drunk driving has never stood on the field sobriety test alone. The breathalyzer has been in wide use since the early 1930’s. Before portable breathalyzers were invented the field sobriety test was used to decide if someone was impaired, but the actual charge depended on the results when they blew in the breathalyzer back at the station.
Enforcing impaired driving laws were much more difficult without that test. A cop could give a test and testify about the person’s reactions, but any decent lawyer could offer countless reasons for why the person was acting that way. It’s the same problem police have today with prescription drug abuse.
Will
@baldheadeddork
People are driving high right now. Legalization would not change this.
One side effect of the drug war is that the government has sponsored years of hysterical anti-drug propaganda that stretches the truth to the point of absurdity. This is one of the reason that DARE program fail, to the point that those who go through DARE are statistically more likely to try drugs.
Take away the propaganda and there’s chance for the government to begin productive educational programs aimed at reducing things like driving while high.
Karen
Legalize marajuana? Not something I’d ever agree with. I’ve watched a man smoke that crap for over 30 years, go through detox, major withdrawl, both physical & mental, get started again, then finally quit, only with a major struggle. The same man who laid on his butt, smoking pot & doing nothing else. Costing a mint. Medical marajuana is just another excuse for the druggie to smoke without being labeled what he truly is: An addict.
It is the most addictive drug out there, even though it’s considered minor.
Just another sign that society as a whole is going to hell in a handcart.
Sarcastro
I’d rather be on the road with ten stoners than one lush.
Maybe next autocross I’ll sneak away at the lunch break and burn one to see how it affects my times…. or not. There’s usually a cop or two there and the tech inspector is a DA.
baldheadeddork
@Will:
I responded to people driving high now vs. after legalization @49, so I won’t repeat myself on that.
But about this:
I’m going to call bullshit. DUI’s went down starting in the early 80’s only when the “hysterical anti-drunk driving propaganda” machine (aka MADD) was cranked up and law enforcement started treating it like a real crime. Educational programs and PSA’s had been tried for decades before, but people didn’t listen until a lot of drunk drivers started going to jail.
Getting behind the wheel when you’re fucked up on anything, when you greatly increase the chances that you’ll kill someone else, is a supremely irrational act. If you think you’re going to convince people to do that by reasoning with them, you’re wrong.
Hunter Gathers
@Karen:
I’m sure there are some recovering heroin and crack addicts that would disagree.
itsbenj
Yeah I had the same take on Zakaria’s performance on Real Time as well. But really, I think he’s frequently awful, and rarely gets his facts right. Sometimes he’ll do a really good, complete job on a story, but I think he’s someone who has been giving just way too much credit and leeway for being an “expert”, when the truth is that he doesn’t actually know a great deal about US foreign policy (or at least, only knows it from one, very narrow perspective, in a Tom Friedman-like sense). I’ve just seen him go on so many shows and spout out what basically amounts to Republican conventional wisdom with no factual backing, I don’t have much use for the guy.
I prefer to read much more in-depth and directly sourced when it comes to foreign policy. People who watch US media and just cull various takes on a given issue and present themselves as ‘experts’ based on doing so – are useless.
Watching Real Time though, aside from being just plain wrong and, once again, having no idea that he’s wrong, he acts like a child. Seriously, childish. The eye-rolling and snorting and acting immediately fed up that everyone in the room isn’t laughing at his stupid jokes; Zakaria embarrassed himself. What is with people reverting to outright childish behavior in addressing the question of the end of prohibition? People like Fareed need to get out and live a bit more.
itsbenj
@Karen: OK, you are a nutter. I love it when people take one stupid person they know, blame everything that’s wrong with said person on one particular thing they’ve decided to fixate on, and then act like this one person they know is somehow a statistically significant, relevant indication of the correctness of their point of view. So you knew a lazy idiot for a long time. So what? What the hell do I care? Or you for that matter.
These silly, made-up horror stories don’t convince anyone. You sound like a former writer for after-school special scripts. So predictable. And so, just, wrong about the subject at hand.
Sarcastro
Um… quite.
Honestly, quitting cigarettes is a lot tougher than quitting pot… and not much easier than kicking the horse.
jrg
In other words, if you were not whining about decriminalization, you’d be whining about something else. I guess it’s fine that we have the largest (per-capita and total) incarceration rates in the world, as long as we keep you f*cking prudes happy. Have a nice day.
Common Sense
I quite smoking pot and it was extremely difficult. Cigarettes and caffeine were both a thousand times harder, with much worse withdrawal symptoms. I still can’t kick the coffee — I can only regulate it.
Thankovsky
@schrodinger’s cat:
Have you read The Post-American World? His thesis in that book doesn’t strike me as anything close to “the conventional wisdom.”
wasabi gasp
John, nobody looks as debonair in flip flops as you do.
I’m gonna light a doob in your honor. Then another one for Tunch. And, uh, you got any fish or a bird or anything? A houseplant? Frozen chicken breasts? It’s all good.
AhabTRuler
Fixeteth.
Bubblegum Tate
1. Great post, John.
2. I have to give Arnie his due props here; it is commendable that he would stick his neck out to even say that we should consider legalization. That said, the one proposal I’ve heard–taxing it at about $50 an eighth–is just plain bad. That sort of tax is prohibitively high (no pun intended) and would probably drive a lot people back to the street to cop. I’m on board with the idea of legalizing/regulating/taxing, but the tax needs to be less onerous.
3. I like Fareed Zakaria, but I think Reza Aslan is better.
gil mann
I’m sorry, how the hell is Zakaria off the hook for Bletchley II? (no, I didn’t know it had a name until Google told me, but long story short, fuck that guy)
Oh, and Karen, chances are your friend was a self-medicating depressive, and who knows, maybe if he hadn’t been surrounded by straight-edge know-nothings, he might’ve been able to turn his life around with GASP a targeted psychiatric medication.
Krista
Well, aren’t you just overflowing with empathy? Read my post upthread about my friend’s father who was slowly dying of cancer. The man never touched an illegal drug in his life (he hardly ever drank), but when the morphine wasn’t enough anymore, he was desperate enough to try something he’d always been against, and his poor, sweet wife had to go out onto the damn streets, talking to god-knows-who, to try to get him a tiny bit of marijuana to relieve his agony. He was a fine man, and I will not sit here and let you denigrate him.
Because I’m not a judgmental, hateful bitch, I won’t wish that you someday have to go through the same thing.
But I will tell you to take your sanctimonious attitude about medicinal marijuana and shove it firmly up your rectum.
fledermaus
That’s the really infuriating thing. It’s like they all think that no one goes to jail for pot anymore. I’d love to get in his stupid face and say “so you think is some big joke? Why don’t you see if the millions of people currently in jail think it’s so fuckin funny asshole!”
Will
@fledermaus
I think part of the problem is that the D.C. Establishment types don’t go to jail when they get caught. You have people like Dan Burton’s son getting caught with eight POUNDS of marijuana and getting community service.
If you have a name, a fortune and a powerful lawyer, drug charges are about as serious as a traffic ticket. Maybe you have to go to a luxury rehab, if you get caught repeatedly, but that’s it. A poor or middle class schlub caught with the same amount can look forward to years in prison.
WMass
The studies that measure driving impairment are really interesting. The fact that talking on a cell phone results in a similar level of impairment to being drunk is either funny or terrifying. No problem, people think, we will make everyone use hands-free devices. Unfortunately that results in almost the same level of impairment, it turns out that it’s the distraction of a conversation, not holding a phone to your ear that’s the problem.
When you talk to people who have driven both drunk and stoned, ( I’m ashamed to admit that includes me when I was younger), there is a consensus that being drunk is much more likely to result in an accident. So, driving stoned is presumably less dangerous that driving while cell-phoning.
It’s important to keep a sense of proportion about things. Driving stoned is obviously a bad idea which should be discouraged, but it’s not at the top of the list of things which cause accidents.
gil mann
As a walking-city resident and devout rollerblader, may I suggest that people who talk on their cell-phones while driving either a) refrain from doing so or, failing that, b) stall out on some train tracks during a particularly diverting conversation.
scarshapedstar
Fun historical footnote, ‘tea’ is one of the oldest slang terms for marijuana:
Who’s up for a tea party? Hope you all brought bags!
HyperIon
@itsbenj: @Karen: OK, you are a nutter.
my response also.
But I HATE it when people take one stupid person they know, blame everything that’s wrong with said person on one particular thing they’ve decided to fixate on, and then act like this one person they know is somehow a statistically significant, relevant indication of the correctness of their point of view. ;=)
HumboldtBlue
Did someone mention marijuana?
Fuck, I need a snack.
SnarkyShark
Dear Karen and baldheadeddork.
You people are part of the problem. Karen is an outright kook and liar and baldheadeddork seems reasonable but has the same agenda.
People drive stoned right now, and having weed breath is the most ridicules thing I have ever heard. Did you pull that out of your ass?
There is nothing in your worthless suppositions that justify the outright assault on rights that this war on Hippies has incurred.
Get over yourself.
Sinister eyebrow
FYI, Barney Frank was on Lou Dobbs talking about this as well as probibitions on internet gambling. Basic gist was, these activities don’t effect anyone other than the person engaging in them so, while some may think they are stupid or unhealthy, the government has no reason to be prohibiting adults from engaging in them (see Alcohol, Tobacco, Skydiving).
schrodinger's cat
@Thankovsky:
No I have not read Zakaria’s latest book, although I have read some of his earlier books. Zakaria is more insightful than your average Beltway pundit but his analysis and take on things is not necessarily original or profound. If I remember right he supported the Iraq debacle and sometimes he comes across as Friedman lite, but less pompous.
sleestak
Karen, are you really blaming pot for ruining this man’s life? He smoked for 30 years, and somehow it’s weed’s fault? I don’t suppose you’ve considered the possibility that he’s just a lazy guy with little self-discipline, have you? That’s not a put-down–it’s just the way some people are (myself included). I don’t know the details of your specific situation, but my guess is that if he didn’t find weed he probably would have found something else instead. Perhaps he could have selected form one of our nation’s safe and legal products that never destroy peoples’ lives over 30 years like cigarettes, alcohol, trans fats, caffeine, sugars, etc.
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
@Hunter Gathers: New Meme: Pot turns you gay.
Not new around here in Utah – I remember hearing that, from a teacher, when I was in junior high school ca. 1981.
Then again, Utah is ahead of the curve for rightard stupiditude in many ways.
Cpl. Cam
This is exactly what it comes down to and why, as a proud pot smoker, this seems like a really bad joke.
Smoking weed is such a terrible crime that millions are locked up for it… until our economy goes down the shitter? Then it’s worth looking into whether it might be more profitable to tax it rather than punish it?
Well, lawmakers, now you know why anyone who feels like it ignores your bullshit legislation anyway, it’s immoral and arbitrary.
Laura W
@sleestak: Did you used to hang out on epinions.com by any chance?
baldheadeddork
@SnarkyShark:
If you think I pulled it out of my ass, smoke a joint or two and then go strike up a conversation with a cop.
Blue Raven
So, Karen, are you a social drinker? Have you considered how many adults kill themselves slowly with alcohol every year? Care to see that banned again? No? I then dub you hypocrite and propaganda stooge. Come back when your brain’s in gear.
Blue Raven
@SnarkyShark:
Marijuana does linger a little on the breath. It’s not as noxious as tobacco, but it’s there. It also sticks to your clothes for a while. So yes, someone who just finished a spliff and gets behind the wheel WILL smell if he gets pulled over.
frankdawg81
Once again you remind me why you are my favorite libertarian/conservative/what-ever-you-want-to-lable-it:
You are capable of re-evaluaiting your opinions based on real world (no pun intended) observation.
I have no idea if decriminilization is good, bad or indifferent but I know what we have now is a giant failure and our unwillingness to have an honest discussion about it is criminal.
wmd
I’m late in commenting, but Barney Frank has introduced federal decriminalization for years now, starting before the Clinton administration if memory serves.
We (the end cannabis prohibition activists) would do well to ask for an updated Shafer Commission, and press Obama to craft policy that follows the science. Nixon arbitrarily ignored his commission’s recommendations because he wanted a tool to harass DFH.
Cpl. Cam
@Karen: Yeah! They shoulda just locked that fucker in prison for those thirty years, that woulda shown him!
Cpl. Cam
@Blue Raven: Cotton- mouth can be a problem, I find that an ice-cold Coors is an effective antedote. And as for the taste lingering in your mouth… fuck yeah. That’s one of my favorite parts, I love it. If you don’t love the way that weed tastes then don’t smoke it cause it will linger in your mouth. And if you get pulled over after smoking pot smoke a cigarette cause, yes, the cop will smell the pot on your breath unless you effectively cover it up.
SnarkIntern
One of the reasons why Obama won the election by nearly ten million votes is precisely because at heart, he is pretty straight-laced and traditional in his thinking. This isn’t my view, I’ve seen the blog proprietor here say basically the same thing.
Only in a world where that blog proprietor supported both elections of George W. Bush could we sit here and have a suggestion that Obama, the first term senator who is black and has a funny sounding Muslim name, would have been a better choice for president if only he were more aggressively on the side of legalizing marijuana.
If you want an example of why blogs will never amount to anything other being the “back fence,” as described on an adjacent thread, here it is.
I mean, WTF? Maybe if you get a tweezers and a magnifying glass you can find something less consequential to talk about than how the president handled a website freep during a question session on the economy, and whether he made the right facial expression at the dumbass marijuana question.
Pfeh.
jayackroyd
It’s more than that, John. When Obama sneered at the pro-legalization people, he was doing it as someone who had himself broken this law, in a room where I am quite sure the majority of people in the room had also broken this law. It’s not just the dismissal. It’s also the hypocrisy that was infuriating.
Cassidy in Iraq
I’m not sure I understand all this sympathy for those in jail. They broke the law. The law may be messed up, but it’s on the books and they knew that when they were holding. Sometimes the bear gets you.
Look, just like Mr. Pink, I’ll support the legalization. You put a petition in front of me, I’ll sign it. But what I’m not gonna do is feel sorry for people who made a decision to break the law, knowing that they could go to jail over it.
SnarkIntern
@Cassidy in Iraq:
I’m sure you’ll hate this, but I agree with you. I have hung around with a few potheads, and for a short time, even been one.
The response to “You could go to jail for that?”
“Bummer, man.” { inhale }
Well, yeah, it is a bummer. So what, it’s not Barack Obama’s mission to fix that as far as I am concerned. If the American people want different laws, then they should vote in such a way as to get them. That’s how it works.
Nobody in this country wants to take responsibility for anything. Don’t like the laws? Change them.
Jrod
So, you’re saying that, as Americans, our right to not be thrown in prison for doing something that hurts absolutely nobody can be casually tossed aside because doing that thing will impair your driving to a lesser degree than a cell phone? Well fuck you too!
Of course, pot smokers in this country are already considered intoxicated if there happens to be any in their urine, despite the fact that piss will show traces of the drug for weeks or months after smoking. (And no, it has no intoxicating effect, the traces are not of the active chemical) Get injured on the job a week after you smoked a joint (on your day off, naturally)? Guess what, your mandatory piss test says you were stoned, so you’re fired.
I do agree that a portable and accurate marijuana intoxication test would be nice, that’s hardly a reason to continue spending billions of dollars to ruin millions of lives.
Legalization supporters, never forget that you can’t just come up with one or two good reasons to keep weed illegal. You have to find enough harm to make legalization worse than spending billions of dollars to ruin millions of lives.
Weed smokers get cut off from financial support for school. We don’t do that to fucking murderers, but some kid who gets caught with a joint at the after-prom party can’t go to college. His life is ruined. Does the punishment fit the crime here?
Do you have some of your stash vacuum sealed in the freezer with a small amount in a bag to smoke from? Congratulations, according to most states you are a dealer, and can expect to do years if you happen to get caught. How much of our taxes are spent to make this all possible? Exactly how much of your money do you want to spend on locking up a smoker for the extra heinous crime of keeping his stash fresh? Is ten years enough? Thanks to overcrowding, he’ll be there to wave goodbye to the rapists and thieves who’ll stroll out after three.
Why do we do this? What is the benefit society receives by having these marijuana laws, and what makes this benefit good enough to be worth the many many negatives these laws bring? Those who support prohibition have to answer these questions, not make stupid jokes about your loser pothead uncle.
Jrod
@SnarkIntern:
We do that through our elected representatives. In other words, yes it’s Obama’s mission because he’s the President, and he represents us.
Obama isn’t the only one, of course, there’s also congress. Local and state changes will also be needed, and slowly but surely those are already happening. Don’t dismiss people for doing nothing when they’re limited by the politicians they have. Despite appearances, it’s not always election season.
The most important step toward legalization is getting the public behind it. Thanks to the freeped pot question given to Obama, countless blogs, newspapers, and even TV news are now discussing legalization. That one freeped poll probably did more for the cause than a month’s worth of phone banking.
Another Luke
FYI, IIRC, Barney Frank has actually been introducing this legislation in every Congress for many years.
He should still be commended, but he rarely gets respect for pushing this bill so often.
fledermaus
Like an expensive, useless Drug War that has cost hundreds of billions of dollars while it’s proponents can’t come up with a single justification for the costs? That sort of responsibility? Or are we just going to blame people who have no contol over the laws?
Ha! Who ya gonna vote for the pro-drug war democrat or pro-drug war republician?
Carrying a knife with a blade longer than 3 inches will land you in jail too. I just checked the laws, turns out everything is illegal these days.
TenguPhule
I support prohibition until such time as pot smokers have helmets that self-enclose to keep the smoke in.
Sentencing I agree is fucked up, but the ban itself, no.
gil mann
Okay, when your immediate reaction to this is “you support rabid pro-lifers?”, you’re probably a little too into political minutae.
Dude, where the fuck do you live that a secondhand-smoke argument applies to pot use? A jazz club bathroom?
asiangrrlMN
I don’t smoke pot, and I don’t drink. To be more precise, I’ve done the former maybe four times in my life, and I drink maybe once a month. My motor skills are much more impaired when I drink than when I smoke. Talking on a cell phone and driving (I’ve done it twice) is far worse than driving after smoking a blunt.
I have sympathy with people who smoke and are in jail because we’re criminalizing an addiction. It’s also why I get pissed off at people who want to jack up the price of cigarettes to twice what they are now. Who’s going to suffer? Disproportionally, it’ll be the poor and the people of color. Why is drinking until you’re bombed legal (as long as you don’t drive), but smoking one blunt is illegal? It’s purely nonsensical. Plus, hemp makes for a fabulous fabric.
Dennis-SGMM
Real progress on marijuana would be growing some shit that rolls itself.
Libby
Well, I’m very late to the party, but I just want to leave a note and say thank you John Cole for this post. It’s great that you understand why it’s important to treat the question seriously and not just write off every proponent as a loser doper.
WMass
@gil mann: “Dude, where the fuck do you live that a secondhand-smoke argument applies to pot use? A jazz club bathroom?”
Brilliant!
Jrod
@TenguPhule:
What do you think is an appropriate punishment for smoking weed inside your own house? Also, what are the harms that come from a person doing something in their own home that has absolutely no effect outside of that place?
Yeah, I know, in prohibition la la land “Ha ha it smells funny,” passes for an argument. That’s because prohibitionists are dickheads.
Hypatia
Just today I was at a business lunch where Arnold’s idea came up. After some discussion, one guy said: “They can now image brains on weed and you can see the shriveling of the brain right in the MRI data.” I happen to know something about imaging research and what this guy said is TOTAL BULLSHIT. But he’s a customer so I just took another bite of sushi.
Kris
@Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
Correct, not a new meme. Carlton Turner, appointed by Ronald Reagan as the first head of the White House Office of Drug Control Policy, publicly advocated that pot turns you gay in 1986. (Legalizing Marijuana: Drug Policy Reform and Prohibition Politics (Hardcover)
by Rudolph J. Gerber , p. 40).
If I’m remembering correctly, the gay was a year or two ahead of the weed, for me, but it sure did make it special :)
dday
I wish people would stop enabling Arnold. He’s not going to legalize pot. He’ll talk about “having the debate” and in the end the Chamber of Commerce will tell him “Our bar owners don’t want to compete” and he’ll shut it down. He vetoed gay marriage twice. He’s slow-walked the global warming legislation he supposedly championed, and supporting repeal of environmental laws in February’s budget deal. He’s talked about endorsing a Democrat about 300 times and he never does it. He governs by magazine cover but doesn’t know what he’s talking about and doesn’t follow through on anything.
Please don’t get sucked in.
TenguPhule
That depends on what kind of house. Is it an apartment? suburb where neighbors can smell it when the wind changes? Or out in the middle of nowhere? Is it sealed, or are they blowing out smoke through the window? Sitting out on the porch puffing out and letting the breeze carry it where it may?
You may think it has no effect on others outside, but location matters. If the smoke is going to someone who wants no part of it, then the smoker is at fault and depending on how bad it is for the victim receiving, the punishment should range from fines to having various limbs beaten by bats by the neighbors.
TenguPhule
Back in college, some stupid fucker smoked pot over the heating system that connected the entire fucking floor.
The smell was everywhere. I was sick for days from it.
Had I found the offender (and believe me, I tried), they wouldn’t have been able to smoke again until their arms got out of the casts.
gil mann
That’s where it comes from, the animus? Christ, this is like the ending of “12 Angry Men.”
Shell Goddamnit
@Karen: Detox? Major withdrawal? What have YOU been smoking?
Shell Goddamnit
@TenguPhule: Dang. So let’s criminalize synthetic copies of expensive perfume, cause that shit makes me sick as a dog. Sicker, even. We’ll have to lock up millions more people but at least my scent-nozzles won’t be assaulted.
tcolberg
Unfortunately, it seems that there is a lot of polarization on the issue of marijuana, even here. There exist the advocates who dismiss the severe consequences of pot as one-off, statistically insignificant, or ridiculous. Then there are the people who are stridently against pot because of either moral certitude or a horrifying personal anecdote.
I, myself, have a personal anecdote of someone in my life who was a user of marijuana and after while moved on to even more destructive drugs. I’ve listened to enough stories from addiction specialists and people trying to get clean at AA to know that marijuana is addictive and that it can destroy lives.
But I also know many of the economic arguments for legalization and how it is an inevitability of economics that pot will be sold no matter how much money is thrown at the “war on drugs”.
I am in favor of marijuana decriminalization and maybe even legalization because of the economic rationale, but I am very much against anyone I know using it because I know how destructive it can be. I don’t know where the balance between those two poles will be.
SnarkyShark
Done it. Several times in fact. So I guess the whole “think of the children” thing is tired and you are trying a different tact.
Some Hippie fuck your girlfriend or something? I really don’t understand this pathological need for some people to tell every one else what to do.
The only intolerance I have is toward intolerance. If everyone would get with the program the world would be a much better place.
Cpl. Cam
Sorry, dude but if you are the type of guy that gets “sick for days” over the smell of pot you probably aren’t the type that should be out picking fights. What I’m saying is: you’re fucking fragile.