This has been going on my entire adult life:
John Demjanjuk of Seven Hills, Ohio, born Ivan Demjanjuk in Ukraine in 1920, arrived in Munich Tuesday morning to face accusations of crimes committed as a Nazi death-camp guard.
Mr. Demjanjuk was deported for the second time by the United States on Monday. The first time was 23 years ago, and he was bound for worldwide notoriety, accused of being the unfathomably cruel “Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka,” one of the Holocaust’s most infamous sadists. He was convicted and sentenced to death in Israel, before new evidence won him a reprieve and eventually a trip back to the United States and the return of his stripped citizenship.
But the wheels of justice began to grind again, and the whole process has repeated itself step by step. Monday night, a frailer Mr. Demjanjuk, now 89 and once again stateless, boarded a special medically equipped airplane bound for Germany, where he is accused of being an accessory in the murder of 29,000 Jews while working as a guard at the Sobibor death camp in eastern Poland.
When the first deportation occurred, I was not old enough to drive.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Pay attention, Dick.
Napoleon
I live in the Cleveland area. The last time they tried to pick him up in the last month or so he cried as if he was in all kind of pain all of the time, so the 6th Circuit COA granted some kind of a stay. A few days later the government release a tape they secretly took of him walking around in apparently good health. A local TV station also had taken some secret video of him showing how he was a complete liar (and by extension his whole family).
Good riddance to him – they should have tried him years ago.
MattF
One odd thing about this case is Pat Buchanan’s untiring assertion of Demjanjuk’s innocence. I dunno. Maybe Pat’s right– but just maybe it’s that little worm in Ol’ Pat’s brain that has to allow one instance where Bad Pat can say what he’s really thinking.
Dennis-SGMM
His first conviction in Israel, based on being identified as “Ivan the Terrible” at the Treblinka death camp was overturned on the grounds of reasonable doubt by the Israeli High Court. He was then tried for being a guard at two other camps in Poland.
Demjanjuk is the only person who knows if he’s really guilty. What would the outcome be if you randomly took any male still alive who was in that general area over sixty years ago and tried them multiple times for similar crimes?
bago
Downside of no statute of limitations? Fog of war. Upside? Cheney can only stop running when he is dead.
Paul in KY
If he is guilty, he should be hung. No matter how old he is.
Same, of course, should apply to Cheney
Bert Cundle
You want Fresh Blood? GET BUSH, Father & Son!
Dennis-SGMM
@Paul in KY:
.
Isn’t that what it’s all about guys? To be hung no matter what age you are?
Cyrus
@Dennis-SGMM:
Bizarre. Didn’t the Nazis keep records of this kind of thing? Even granting that this guy might have adopted a new identity after the war without leaving the slightest trace, I’d still think the German army would be able to tell you whether Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka is, or is not, the same person as a guard at certain other prisons.
Dennis-SGMM
@Cyrus:
That’s why I have questions about this. Would a grainy sixty year old ID photo of someone be sufficient to identify an 89 year old man? And it’s not as though Demjanjuk can call his mom as a witness to testify that he spent the whole war picking potatoes. I’m not attempting to defend him here, I’m just wondering if anyone could get a fair trial at this remove from the crime.
Paul in KY
Good Point, Dennis :-). You know I meant hung not in a good way (for us guys).
As far as the Ivan the Terrible thing, most of the picture evidence, etc. was held by the Russians & it was only when some pictures were shown of the real Ivan that it became apparent that he looked nothing like Mr. Demjanjuk.
There was that ID card for Trawniki of someone who looked just like a young Mr. Demjanjuk, the documentation saying he was headed for Sobibor. So the evidence that helped to show he was not Ivan did show he was in the SS (ha, ha).
Jason F
@Dennis-SGMM:
While the first sentence is correct, I don’t believe he was tried for allegedly being a guard at Sobibor and Trawniki. After the conviction was reversed, Israel decided not to prosecute given the outcome of the first trial and shipped him back to the U.S.
hmd
If I recall this case from the first time around, the evidence reasonably showed that he was a guard at a concentration camp. But not terribly convincing that he was this Ivan the Terrible fellow.
Groovymarlin
John said:
Dude, I’m so with you. I grew up in Cleveland and I remember this was on the local news every day when I was in high school. I can’t believe it’s still going on! The sentiment in my neighborhood was mostly of the “how can they possibly prove anything now?” variety. The guy will probably die of natural causes before he’s ever successfully convicted of any war crimes.
The Moar You Know
He was. By the Israelis. He was convicted and the verdict was overturned by their Supreme Court and he was set free. So we went court shopping until we found someone willing to try him on the same charges – something that would be unconstitutional in the United States.
This is a fucking travesty.
Mark
I have no idea whether this guy is guilty or not, but I agree with the previous poster: Once the Israelis let him go, that should have been the end of it.
4jkb4ia
Even my husband thinks we should let the man die in peace now. I supplemented that this is not like the Khmer Rouge where if you do not try the few elderly people left, you try no one.
And what The Moar You Know said.
4jkb4ia
(Which leads me to wonder how hard it would be for Cheney’s heart simply to give out if he thinks he will be tried for anything) (He would probably want to finish his book)
KRK
@MattF:
Maybe if the Vatican would let people other than the likes of Buchanan look at their ratline files, we wouldn’t have to guess.
Paul in KY
I think it’s sad that some of our esteemed posters are taking the “he’s too old & it was too long ago” copout.
This dude was at Sobibor & was in the SS. I’ve seen his SS training picture & it sure looks like him.
Can we at least agree that if he was a guard at Sobibor he deserves no mercy, even if he’s 110?
kid bitzer
yeah, i feel torn about this one, and i respect anyone else who thinks it’s a hard case.
there is something unseemly about pursuing an 89-year old. and it has dragged on far too long. and his acquittal by the israeli high court makes the continuation in the u.s. feel shady.
that said, i was also pretty unhappy when pol pot died peacefully in his bed, and if this guy was an ss guard, i want him to pay.
i want there to be a marker laid down for war criminals of all nationalities and ages: if you do the crime, humanity will hunt you down. no matter how long it takes.
cmorenc
We do have this little problem of prosecuting (or giving a crucial assist such as deporating) people accused of war crimes who were either of other nationalities when the incidents charged occurred, or are little fish (such as the Abu Grave military prison guards)…while at the same time giving our own very big fish like Dick Cheney, John Yoo, George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld et. al. de facto immunity on the grounds amounting to “too big to fail” (by any acknowledgement our government’s top officers could possibly commit war crimes).
If we’re going to facilitate the prosecution of an 89-year old guy for being an SS Concentration Camp guard 65 years ago, what about prosecuting a Vice President who egregiously lied and falsified intelligence to lead this country into an unprovoked war and authorized torture and indefinite detention in foreign countries of whomever he liked…only 5 or 6 years ago.
I want to see Dick Cheney cry like a baby as they lead him away in handcuffs to exchange his clothes for an orange jumpsuit and slip-on white sneakers to begin a life sentence without possibility of parole.
cmorenc
I forgot to add…Dick Cheney’s egregious lies to get us into the Iraq war inevitably led to over 4000 US service people’s deaths and far more service people permanently maimed, many in horribly painful, extended, agonizing ways.
So there’s not quite so much a gap between what Dukmajin is accused of being an accessory to and what Cheney is accused of being an active accessory to…without even the “under purportedly lawful orders of superiors” type defense, whatever that’s even worth post-Nuremburg, cause he WAS the superior ordering and facilitating and planning the crimes.
Paul in KY
cmorenc, I would like to see Mr. Cheney ‘hung from the neck until dead’. I would certainly settle for your scenario, though.
PhoenixRising
This has in fact been going on since he worked at the auto plant next to the library we used, because my parents worked there.
He was a typical old Cleveland factory worker, postwar immigrant guy. There was nothing special or interesting about him, he didn’t request ‘How to Be a Better Nazi in America’ books or anything. He was utterly average.
So my dad, being the kind of first-generation Eastern European heritage Catholic educated man he was, used Demjanjuk as the best example we would ever see of the banality of evil.
When we was first indicted I was in grade school. I remember many discussions about the importance of always thinking for yourself about moral choices, how to identify prejudices you hold, and why it’s never okay to let others express bigoted ideas without speaking up. The implied premise was definitely that evil incarnate, the capacity to injure and degrade others, is something to be watched for in the most typical everyday circumstances. Because that old white guy with an accent was indistinguishable from my grandpa.
TenguPhule
Ideally we hang Bush, Cheney and the whole gang before you’re so old we have take your car keys away.
Catsy
I admit I’m torn on this one as well. Having seen how easy it is to get fucked by the justice system when someone has an axe to grind, I’m /extremely/ skeptical of any case relying on 60-year-old circumstantial evidence, especially when the stakes are as high as they are.
I’m also sympathetic to the need to see justice done here, to the extent that it’s really even possible to achieve the tiniest part of actual justice for the Holocaust.
But the thing that tears it for me is the court-shopping aspect of this. If there was some kind of compelling new evidence, fingerprints or documents or something like that to more firmly tie him to these crimes, that would be one thing, and I’d be happy to see him tried again. But at face value, this particular case smells more like a witch hunt than justice.
My personal principles with regard to law enforcement and civil liberties accept that in assigning greater weight to the presumption of innocence and the benefit of the doubt, some of the guilty will go free. I consider this a lesser evil than the the prospect of wrongfully convicting more innocents out of zeal for punishing the guilty.
As much as I hate it, that applies to accused Nazis too.
MNPundit
Well I feel the same way about it as I feel about Billy Ayers. Criminals. If someone prosecutes them with the right evidence have it I guess though I personally would not. The man has been living a productive life not hurting anyone sine 1945. It’s waste of resources.
But if there is anything Israel lives for it’s revenge. Whether it’s justified as it is in this case, or not.
Pete A
I’m sorry, it strikes me odd that we can’t investigate 9-11, the lack of wmds in Iraq, and now torture in this country because those in power (and out of power) say we have to look forward instead of back. But we can investigate the 60 year old(or when this all started 30year old) crime of being a guard at a concentration camp. The logic escapes me. Can someone explain?
Anne Laurie
From your keyboard to the FSM’s ears!
Winners write the history. Nazis lost, “big time” as a certain unidicted war criminal would say, and are therefore liable to prosecution as long as they remain alive. This has *everything* to do with the way Darth Cheney is making the rounds of the Wingnut Wurlitzer media — he knows better than anyone that if his tattered “But we only tortured people to support our deliberate lies in order to start a war against the wrong country because we love America” justifications finally collapse, he will finish his career progress from Loser (as one of Nixon’s baby CREEPsters) to Winner (2000-2008) back to Loser (this time with more Hague, hopefully).
Porlock Junior
Mattf @ 3: “One odd thing about this case is Pat Buchanan’s untiring assertion of Demjanjuk’s innocence.”
Bad Pat’s distaste for Nazis can easly be detected with sensitive instrumentation, but it’s probably not a job for amateurs.
vanya
Buchanan has always felt we fought on the wrong side on WWII – we should have been fighting alongside the Germans against the Bolshevik menace. Demjanjuk was never a Nazi party member, as far as I know, he was an opportunistic Ukrainian who hated the Soviet government and shared the anti-semitism that was (is) very common among Ukrainian nationalists.
michael
note re court-shopping or trying and old man and so forth: viewed from the German side, where he is being put to trial now, the sentiment is mostly that of course it won’t do much good now, but the court is duty-bound by the German constitution to try a case like that, no matter the circumstances.