I love how the media just continues to get played by our intelligence agencies:
Battered by recriminations over waterboarding and other harsh techniques sanctioned by the Bush administration, the CIA is girding itself for more public scrutiny and is questioning whether agency personnel can conduct interrogations effectively under rules set out for the U.S. military, according to senior intelligence officials.
Harsh interrogations were only one part of its clandestine activities against al-Qaeda and other enemies, and agency members are worried that other operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan will come under review, the officials said.
Other than Lyddie England and Charles Graner, name one person who has been punished or suffered for actions conducted the last eight years. Yet the CIA and their willing allies in the WaPo keep moving the chains for what is and what is not acceptable: “OMG- someone might accurately calls acts of torture for what they are- how can we do our jobs!” And just so we are clear, that loudmouth jackass Ward Churchill has been punished more for his thought crimes than ANYONE involved with the actual torture of human beings.
Once again, Col. Bacevich
To frame the question more broadly: When considering the national security state as it has evolved and grown over the past six decades, what exactly has been the value add? And if the answer is none – if, indeed, the return on investment has been essentially negative – then perhaps the time has come to consider dismantling an apparatus that demonstrably serves no useful purpose.
These guys want complete impunity to do whatever they want with total anonymity, and if anyone even suggests reining them in a little, they scream that they can not do their job effectively, work to undermine the elected government, and anyone who points out they aren’t doing their job effectively to begin with is an un-American DFH. Enough. It is long past time to start over.
*** Update ***
My bad. I forgot about General Taguba, who was fired for… investigating abuses at Abu Ghraib. Got too close and had to go.
gbear
Well there’s Valerie Plame. Oh wait, that was because of her husband’s conduct.
Woody
That brigadier general, who had been nominally in charge of Abu Grahib, was forced to retire, mebbe demoted, i fergit…Janice Karpinsky?
But she’d be the only one, and she wasn’t Reg Army, and she wasn’t a male, either…
JenJen
For the first time in a long time, I really let Joe Scarborough and Friends get under my skin this morning. How much Joe + Rudy! can one person be expected to endure??
Atrios linked to this clip from this morning’s show, where Joe chose to mock and disparage Jesse Ventura without actually challenging a single one of his views. Later in the program, they brought on Bob Shrum for a second day, just to kick him around and make fun of him. I don’t care for being placed in the uncomfortable position of having to defend Bob Shrum, who drove me crazy as the World’s Worst Campaign Manager for years, but when he’s right, he’s right. But the Zoo Crew isn’t interested in right or wrong, they’re interested in torture-porn. And it’s sickening.
That MSNBC is so very, very liberal, no?
@Woody: Speaking of Gen. Karpinski, if you haven’t seen it yet, I urge everyone to rent “Standard Operating Procedure,” Errol Morris’ film about Abu Ghraib. It is deeply disturbing, and profoundly sad, but it’s a must-see for those of us who remain sickened that the “Bad Apples” excuse seems to prevail to this day.
JL
But, but Nancy Pelosi lied. MSM decided that stories about Churchill and Pelosi were more important than crimes committed by the Bush Administration. End of story.
Michael
I’ve always thought that “the ticking bomb” scenario was really what the Presidential pardon power should be for – the hard choice, the unacceptable choice.
The choice that the rational actor has to make in implicit trust in the executive to do the right thing, because it would be too catastrophic not to.
When you devolve the power to torture and grant explicit authority to use it to every corporal and every CIA contractor, bad things WILL happen.
PeakVT
And if the answer is none – if, indeed, the return on investment has been essentially negative – then perhaps the time has come to consider dismantling an apparatus that demonstrably serves no useful purpose.
At the very least everybody who works at the CIA should have the word “blowback” tattooed on their bodies in some prominent location, because they just don’t seem to remember it.
Aaron
But our intelligence community (although I think the name is a misnomer) has been involved in a wealth of covert and unsavory activities. From the outright murder (Torrijos) to supporting right-wing militias throughout Latin America (Guatemala, El Salvador, Panama, etc) in particular, the intelligence community survives because there is little to no accountability or oversight.
Michael
BTW, I’d like some future historian to go into the records (such that have been suffered to exist) in detail. I want to know the questions asked, the conclusions sought, the means of enhancement used, the timelines between answers, the information gleaned and how that info was used.
I also want to know the past and subsequent history of the torturer and the torturee.
Lets do a true cost-benefit analysis, and see if it was worth it.
I’m still wondering why a questioning regime of sleep staggering wouldn’t break anybody within about 7 days. 2-3 hour breaks between 20 minute questioning sessions would do quite nicely…..
Aaron
@PeakVT:
It just gets flushed down the memory hole, only remembered by DFHs and nerdy academics who “don’t understand.” They then ask, with little guile, why “they hate us”
InflatableCommenter
You’ve seen me rant about the secretive, unchecked Do Whatever the Fuck It Wants To Do government for a long time. Your article suggests a practical way to start restoring the proper balance in government and putting accountability and oversight back into meaningful operation.
Congrats on a great post.
Rosali
Antonio Taquba was pushed out and forced to retire for investigating.
ChrisS
I’m sure the CIA would like to be able to operate under the same rules as the Zimbabwe Central Intelligence Office.
I’m not sure I’d agree with that, though.
The problem is that too many wingnuts like to think that the CIA is filled to the brim with saints who are only working to protect the constitution as they, the wingnuts, see it. There are nothing but Jack Bauer Clones who know right from wrong and good from evil with 100% accuracy. Funny, so many “liberterians” seem to want to entrust the feds with the ability to detain people indefinitely for nebulous reasons and torture the shit out of them … indefinitely.
Heavens to Betsy we get a 21st century healthcare system, though.
thomas
Aaron @ 7
Don’t forget Iran in the 50’s. We’re definately still paying for that f’-up – and deservedly so.
JenJen
@ChrisS: Spot-on about why the nutbars seem to worship the CIA. I’ve been puzzled lately as to when, exactly, the CIA became the fourth branch of Government, and that their integrity is thereby unimpeachable, unlike the other branches, or something.
I’m a Gen-Xer and I’m pretty sure we were sort-of raised from birth believing the CIA is shady, a little scary, an insular bureaucracy, not terribly effective, and full of notable fuck-ups (most recently, see: September 11, 2001). I don’t get where all the wingnut praise is coming from, I really don’t.
joe from Lowell
Do you think there is any chance at all the Washington Post will recall how the Republicans have been attacking the CIA for the past seven years? The White House and the right-wing media machine savaged them for not being enthusiastic enough about WMDs, about not believing in a Saddam-al Qaeda conspiracy, and for generally not falling in line with the neocon project in general.
I think the administration and the political CIA appointees brought in a bunch of hacks and mercenaries to “walk on the dark side,” because the actual CIA is full of Democrats and Arabists doncha know, and those are the people pushing back.
Porter Goss practically carried out a purge before he was forced to resign in disgrace.
John PM
What Bacevich said.
I commented in a post recently (I cannot remember which one) that the entire intelligence apparatus (CIA, NSA, FBI, DOD intelligence, etc.) needs to be dismantled and a new organization built in its place that has a much narrower mission and follows the law (e.g., no spying on Americans).
fledermaus
Now, now, John. They have been punished. Why look at all the nasty, awful things people are saying about them. In Washington DC punishment doesn’t get any worse, unless it’s getting kicked off the cocktail circuit for demanding that tourturers be prosecuted before the law. But those people deserve it, stupid dirty hippies.
aarrgghh
setting aside the glamorous stories about james bond intrigue, the cia’s job is largely research. it’s interesting that they’re digging in their heels about interrogations. i can’t remember where but wasn’t it reported that it was cheney that took that purview from the folks who were actually experienced in arrests and interrogations, the fbi, and stovepiped it to the cia when he wasn’t getting the intel he wanted?
bayville
There have been “lots” of people punished – or that is what Abu Ghraib expert Richie Cohen wrote a few years back.
On Lynndie England.
(italics mine)
I guess we all better pay attention more.
noncarborundum
Aaugh! “Reign” for “rein” has got to be one of the most annoying misspellings on this whole intertube apparatus. Please stop.
Bob In Pacifica
Funny, I blogged here yesterday about the media and the CIA, attention: John Dickerson.
Bob In Pacifica
Also, let us not forget that for decades the CIA was training all those South American juntas on how to crank those magnetos and where to attach them so they don’t leave scars. Remember Dan Mitrione.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
@JenJen:
The wingnuts love the CIA now because Bush/Cheney filled it up with their toadies and yes-men. For the previous 55 years, the CIA (not the covert operations guys, that’s another kettle of fish altogether) were almost always the voice of reason when the warmongers would get their panties in a twist about what somebody might do–if wishes were horses, etc.
From the “Missile Gap” through Kristol/Perle/Wolfowitz’s “Window of Vulnerability” to Saddam Hussein’s “WMDs,” the CIA consistently debunked these horror stories and the neocons hated them for it with a purple passion. Now that they’ve gelded them and broken them to the saddle, though, they can do no wrong.
Slaney Black
“CIA and WaPo” is like saying “the GOP and the Republican party” or “the UK and Great Britain”. The one begins and the other ends in no place in particular.
JenJen
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge: Can’t express how much I appreciate the explanation, and it has the added benefit of making perfect (albeit disturbing) sense. Thank you.
GregB
To all of the sad mouthed CIA cupcakes. If you can’t do your job without torturing people, then it is time to eliminate lots and lots of your jobs.
It’s really that simple.
-G
Steeplejack
If you really want to give your rant-gland a workout, read Tim Weiner’s Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA. Horrifying, depressing, but necessary.
asiangrrlMN
@GregB: Yes, this. I think the CIA is outdated and needs to be either revamped or tossed completely.