DHS report:
Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.
Ed Morrisey, 14 April, with a representative response from the hysterical right-wing freak-out over the report:
The execrable DHS report on “right-wing extremism”
Michelle has it covered pretty well, but I looked at the DHS report on “right-wing extremism” myself, and it’s every bit as bad as she says, and as Roger Hedgecock and the Liberty Papers first reported. The DHS fails to provide any specifics at all, preferring instead to smear half of the country or more as kooks for criticizing the government’s handling of the economy. As Eli Lake reports, the DHS has all but declared war on federalism, which used to be the founding concept of our republic.
Some information on the suspected murderer of Dr. Tiller:
Although Stolz refused to release the man’s name, Johnson County sheriff’s spokesman Tom Erickson identified the detained man as Scott Roeder. He has not been charged in the slaying. Sunday night, he was taken from the Johnson County jail where he had been held for six hours. He was expected to be taken to Wichita for questioning.
Court records and Internet postings show that a man named Scott Roeder has a criminal record and a background of anti-abortion postings on sympathetic Web sites.
Who is Scott Roeder? Some background here (via):
July 7, Kansas: Scott Roeder is sentenced to sixteen months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.
It is almost like the DHS report predicted this sort of thing. Funny that.
RememberNovember
Betcha he’s a tea-bagging Glenn Beck, O’REilly fapping f-tard. Oh wait he’s a murdering douchebag to boot. Put him in a cell with the biggest horniest AfAm or Latino.
I’m thinking Adabisi from Oz.
Face
Seen this in a bunch of articles on this. What’s it mean?
MikeJ
Who could have guessed that a member of the Montana Militia would be violent?
Montysano
Your post conveniently ignores the facts that both Al Gore and Michael Moore are fat, and Obama went on a date night to NYC. Also.
If, as I do, one occasionally listens to the Hannitys and Becks and Levins, et al, this is merely the collateral damage that is to be expected. These idiots foment insurrection and violence every single day.
Little Dreamer
@Face:
It means the POTUS is a furriner.
dmsilev
If it weren’t so damned tragic, it’d almost be funny watching groups like Operation Rescue try to pretend that they have nothing to do with this guy.
Of course, Randall Terry sounds almost exactly like a spokesman for Al Qaeda: “We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God.”
-dms
Robin G.
It’s going to be really interesting. My family was visited by the FBI in 2003 because a family member suggested a sit-in around FOX news — incidents like this led, I think, to a lot of caution among the Leftblogistan, making sure to always qualify what was said with emphasis on legal means etc., not just at the main post level, but right up and down the comment threads.
The freepers and wingnuts didn’t get the kind of attention we did early on, and as their online ‘verse evolved, they didn’t have to hold themselves back for fear of a knock on the door by people with badges. Looks like, in the wake of this, they’re going to be seeing a bit more scrutiny when they call for hangings and shootings and revolution.
Countdown to rediscovery of First Amendment rights in three… two… one…
WMass
“The Sovereign Citizen Movement is a loosely organized collection of groups and individuals who have adopted an essentially-anarchist ideology. Its adherents believe that virtually all existing Federal government bodies in the United States are illegitimate. Those who subscribe to the movement seek to establish a minimalist government. “Sovereign citizens” often assert that they are not subject to any laws to which they have not specifically consented. Needless to say, such theories have met with no success in the courts.”
In other words they are a bunch of stupid assholes who don’t want to pay taxes or obey laws. They make libertarians look mature.
dmsilev
@Face:
Wikipedia has a capsule summary:
They hate ZIP codes. That’s some grade-A loony, that is.
-dms
Face
@WMass: Thx. I’m stunned the media didn’t capitalize the term, to give it more prestige than it clearly deserves.
KevinNYC
Let’s not forget that idiot in Pittsburgh who believed the governmenet was coming for his guns and shot down a couple of police officers answering a disturbance at his house.
Punchy
If I’m reading the rather vague timelines correctly, I was about 2 blocks from this dude’s house driving by at about the time the cops were swooping in. Oddly, I don’t recall seein a bunch of cop cars anywhere. Had no idea there were so many fuckheads living in KC burbs. Figged they were mostly the western KS homo/xenophobes
Skepticat
I was really irritated when the administration began to walk back this report, as it seemed to me that anyone paying attention would see how spot on it was. I wonder if there’ll be any rethinking of that decision now. Or if it would matter.
I’ve always thought that we’re more threatened by domestic “terrorists” than any of the boogeymen the rabid right warns against.
Laura W
Salon has a couple of decent front page posts. The one on the worthless symbology of Candles in the Wind vigils makes a good case for another Big Speech from Obama:
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@dmsilev:
Does anyone have any idea why they hate zip codes? I did some quick Googling, but came up empty.
EconWatcher
RememberNovember, do you really want to celebrate prison rape? Is that how we show we’re civilized, in response to the barbarism of this thug? Is it good that we routinely joke about unbelievable acts of brutality in our prisons, visited mostly on the weakest, youngest and least violent offenders?
geg6
This guys wasn’t just a forced birth nutcase. He was one of those sovereign citizen nutbags who don’t accept the legitimacy of the federal government, a Montana Militia member, and posted specifically about going to Dr. Tiller’s church to confront him and his fellow parishioners. This, on top of his arrest with bomb making equipment. If this guys isn’t a terrorist, I don’t know who is. He is no different from members of al Qaeda or Hamas or the Taliban or any number of other terrorist groups and their supporters. I am with the Rude Pundit here. If he’s a terrorist (which he definitely is, based on any definition of the word) and he has connections to other suspected terrorists (which it appears he does), then we should treat him as one.
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
jrg
It’s not like this is the fifth time this happened.
Sadly, No has Malkin’s response up now… Well, ah do declare. Such surprising news. She’s got to sit down for a spell. Someone bring this poor woman some smelling salts.
John Cole
I don’t want the Obama administration to do anything right now. Remember the response to Oklahoma City? Most of what was suggested in response was shot down, only to re-emerge in the Patriot Act, when Republicans could trust the President with expanded authorities because he was one of theirs and not Clinton.
How is that Patriot Act working out?
Wilson Heath
I really hope I’m wrong, but I’m guessing that this is only the tip of the iceberg. We’re not just talking peak wingnut here. It runs deeper and scarier.
geg6
@KevinNYC:
Mr. Poplawski was in court just this morning:
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09152/974228-100.stm
cleek
he absolutely is, by the definition of “Domestic Terrorism” (USA PATRIOT 802(c) ).
now if i could just hear an NPR announcer describe him that way…
MikeJ
From http://www.calbar.ca.gov/calbar/pdfs/sections/public/public-law-journal_vol-27-no-2_spring-2004.pdf
Xenos
@dmsilev: I have my suspicions about the Uniform Commercial Code, but I am not sure what opposing the ZIP code is supposed to accomplish — (more) lousy mail service? Would they have us rely on the evil secret mail service from The Crying of Lot 49?
Krista
There has got to be some uninhabited island somewhere that can be given to these people, where we can drop them, and where they can happily live without any laws or government services. Let those fuckers sink or swim on their own, leaving the rest of us to live in a functioning society.
MikeJ
We Await Silent Tristero’s Empire
someguy
The legal trouble is that you need to look for indicia of violence or crime before you can investigate. Simply being an extremist nutbag has never been enough – McCarthyism notwithstanding – to legally justify an investigation. Maybe it’s time to change the laws and make ideology grounds for investigation. And before everybody screams “creeping fascism” consider that Germany does this, and in fact outlaws extremists and lunatics (buh bye Nazis and Scientologists) and it’s a perfectly nice, quite liberal and free country. It would have to be done with care, and you’d have to count on doing it strenuously enough to keep the nutbags out of elective office, but it can be done.
MikeJ
Being a rightwing extremist nutbag has never been enough. There have been plenty of investigations of radical groups like the Quakers that might oppose a war.
The Grand Panjandrum
@John Cole: Exactly! The government should not overreach because of the assassination of Dr. Tiller and use it as an excuse to clamp down of behavior it doesn’t like. Every LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL law enforcement measure should be used to investigate this horrible event. We have plenty of laws and more than enough prosecutorial wherewithal to bring this individual to justice (if indeed he acted alone).
If anything this is when you take a deep breath and remember we are a nation that covets individual liberty and the rule of law. Now is not the time to panic and restrict constitutional guarantees because what appears to be a lone gunman.
Investigate thoroughly and if others may have aided in this then prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law.
El Cid
It is really tragic how right wingers are often associated with other right wingers who say the exact things they do but go shoot people.
Comrade Darkness
Seen this in a bunch of articles on this. What’s it mean?
It means we need more travel agencies offering one-way flights to Somalia so these guys can live their dream. That these people haven’t immigrated there already shows that they are just full of sh*t.
Argive
What really stuck in my mind watching the rightosphere response to that DHS report was that some people simply do not remember how big a deal domestic terrorism was before 9/11. Oklahoma City, the 1996 Olympics and the Unabomber all seem pretty far away until someone like Roeder comes out of the woodwork.
gex
@Robin G.: Meanwhile, God forbid the US security apparatus monitor right-wing extremists in this country. Too many DFHs sitting in, carrying signs, having meetings, or signing petitions. Surely you can see how these activities are more dangerous that amassing weapons and ammo or declaring yourself sovereign and not subject to laws…
El Cid
Until 9/11 it was long the case that the vast majority of perpetrators of domestic terrorism were on the right, particularly white supremacists, though in these days of fears of mass deaths, it is important to remember that targeted assassination campaigns are terroristic too.
The Saff
I still can’t help but be fearful for President Obama’s safety. I mean, I trust the Secret Service but the comments about the President on various websites are downright scary, if not disturbing. The radical fringe element of society seems hell-bent on raising the level of nuttiness to unprecedented levels.
tc125231
@The Grand Panjandrum:
kay
@someguy:
I don’t like that idea at all. Kansas has a prosecutor for the murder charge and the US has a prosecutor for any conspiracy/terrorism related charges. We’ve seen some of Holder’s work. Just let them do their jobs.
If you’re talking about preventing terrorist attacks, while complying with the liberty guarantees mandated in our system, I think this incident sort of puts paid to the notion that we’re “safe”, or can be “kept safe”, or should expect to be “kept safe”, without really unacceptable compromises on liberty.
They had a lot of information on both the suspect they picked up and this whole situation. They had almost 15 years to plan and prevent this. They were unable to do so. That should tell us something about the whole “safety” myth, and terrorism.
R-Jud
@Krista:
Two amendments:
1) The island must be seriously volcanically active;
2) Set up some sort of pay-per-view website or channel documenting their inevitable meltdown. Revenue to go to family planning programs, stem cell research, and volcano monitoring.
DZ
@EconWatcher
Thank you for that post.
@RememberNovember
In 1969, I was drafted 4 days after graduating from college. Having been raised as a pacifist, I refused to serve and requested conscientious objector status. CO status was denied, because I had also been raised as an atheist, and there was no provision in the law for CO status that was not based on religion (BTW, this portion of the law was found unconstitutional by the SCOTUS in 1970 in Griffiths vs the United States). I was sentenced to 5 years in maximum security prison. I was raped, beaten, burned and cut for months – I have had full dentures since then plus the 35 burn and cut scars are still visible. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone for any reason.
You need to reconsider your POV.
Little Dreamer
@dmsilev:
Seems to me I remember learning that the US fought a War of Independence (I lived in Delaware growing up so it was a pretty big deal where I lived – half of the places I passed each day had some sort of “George Washington Slept Here” significance) – or did I only imagine that the US both fought and WON that war? Hmmmmm.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
He’s missing that one crucial component of the Wingnut Definition of a Turr’ist:
He’s not brown skinned.
And people wonder why we call these kooks the American Taliban? If the burhka fits…
Jay C
All great suggestions, folks, except for the uncomfortable fact that a non-trivial percentage of the populace not only doesn’t see “actions” like Dr. Tiller’s murder as any sort of “terrorism”, but actively cheers them on – usually on some sort of “religious” grounds or other. To wit: from the New York Times today: (emphasis added):
NonyNony
@Argive:
Look at the politics of the “some people” who “do not remember” the domestic terrorism of the 90s.
Look at the politics of the perpetrators of the domestic terrorism of the 90s.
Note the strong incentive that the “some people” who “do not remember” have to “not remember” what happened just a short decade ago.
It’s not that people “do not remember”, it’s that they DO remember and they’re trying to make enough noise to get everyone else to ignore it.
There’s going to be a lot more of this crap in the next few years. Guaranteed. When the liberal flank of this country is out of power, liberals mostly get shitfaced a lot, complain, fantasize about moving to a more liberal country (Canada perhaps, or France), and, when things finally get to be too much, organize politically and try to win elections.
When the right-wing flank of this country is out of power they go insane. And that insanity culminates in the most insane portions of the fringe going nuts and killing people. We watched this happen before, and the right-wing of this country has gotten MORE INSANE in the last eight years than it was in the 90s.
The Grand Panjandrum
@tc125231:
I suggest you put a jacket on then.
Comrade Darkness
@tc125231: Over 16,000 people die every year because they lack health insurance.
I’ll match your 16,000 and raise you 225,000 deaths a year to medical mistakes.
If it were about lives, there is a lot of low hanging fruit to reach for, but since they don’t involve bombing the f*ck out of brown muslins no one was interested.
And as to one causing the government to spend money, war certainly is expensive so I’d amend that with: spending money that goes directly to our buddies at Haliburton and Blackwater/Xe. Money for war doesn’t count as spending somehow. I think if I ever grasp that, my head will explode.
NonyNony
@Jay C:
Why the fuck should I care what a bunch of terrorist sympathizers and supporters think? I don’t care what al-Qaeda thinks when one of their number blows up a building and the rest of the organization cheers them on. Likewise, I don’t give a flying fuck what the terrorist sympathizers in Operation Rescue think either.
The “good people” will leave these terrorist organizations behind. The rest of them can run the risk of going to jail if they provide material support to terrorists. Period.
Little Dreamer
There is a Christian scripture to support just about any viewpoint in the world.
kay
@R-Jud:
They tried a lot of government remedies. They failed, so they went after him with a gun.
They impaneled a citizen grand jury to indict him at one point, and the citizen grand jury didn’t return an indictment, which is pretty amazing, considering that they heard 6 months of testimony, from only one side. They pressured the prosecutor into bringing 19 misdemeanor charges, and the doctor was acquitted.
They were availed of every lawful remedy, including several elections, and they failed and failed and failed.
They’ll tell you they were driven by desperation, or that their rights were somehow denied, but it isn’t true. They lost, and this is how they responded to loss after loss after loss.
What if everyone did that?
gex
@Little Dreamer: Hmm… There’s a commandment that does seem to preclude this. And it is spelled out pretty clearly, isn’t it?
jenniebee
@MikeJ: also, a certain sub-segment of them believe that using Zip Codes just makes it easier for the UN to find you when they invade.
I wish to God I was making this up.
Napoleon
@Xenos:
Then maybe that was you I saw driving around in Ohio about a dozen years ago with a sign in the back window of your car refering to the effect of the UCC on Ohio’s statehood.
Comrade Darkness
“There is Christian scripture that would support this.”
In the commenter’s defense, this is actually true. My particular copy of the old testament is chock a block with all kinds of righteous reasons for offing your enemies. Also drunken incest for the good of the family, surrendering your daughters to be raped by invaders and dragging your lippy sons out where the villagers can stone him.
I, personally, am grateful these guys don’t live MORE by their holy book.
Little Dreamer
@gex:
You would think, but, “thou shalt not kill” is not taken very seriously by these people. In fact, they seem to relish the idea of keeping a hold on their guns, I guess because they think God wants them to kill.
Zach
The biggest tragedy about this, and why Tiller was such a commendable figure, is how predictable this was. Here’s part of a comment I left here a week ago in a thread that predicted this exactly:
He was the only person in the entire region that provided these services; now a hundred or so women a year are going to have to either pay to travel cross country (many already travel quite far to get to Kansas) for abortions, perform illegal abortions, or carry baby’s to term that don’t have a chance of survival. The vast majority of Tiller’s late-term abortions fall into that category.
Punchy
1996 Olympics bombing was abortion-related, too, wudnit?
Little Dreamer
@kay:
I’m afraid that some birther movement member is going to come to this conclusion as well.
The Saff
@Punchy. Right. Eric Rudolph.
Jay in Oregon
@KevinNYC:
Or Jim D. Adkisson, the asshole who gorged himself on right-wing propaganda from Michael Savage, Bill O’Reilly, and Sean Hannity and went on a shooting spree in a Universal Unitarian church during a children’s play because he hated liberals.
El Cid
Good god — look at the investigations and undercover work and arrests and convictions carried out on people who wanted to protest the Republican National Conventions.
And yet here we’re dealing with an execrable ‘movement’ of assholes and lunatics who regularly push for violence, assassinations, shootings, arson, property damage, and so forth.
You can bet DHS isn’t refraining from investigating the eco-claiming arsonists targeting subdivisions or Hummer dealerships.
gex
@Punchy: By a guy who also terrorized gay bars as well, IIRC.
malraux
@The Grand Panjandrum: Hate crimes and terrorist acts have effects that extend beyond just the violence done against one person. Limiting society’s response to terrorist acts to just prosecuting the offender doesn’t address the greater harm. Doing things like repealing Hyde amendment or stronger protections against incitement by anti-abortion groups (ie, no naming of private citizen’s names, addresses, photographs, etc) would fight the greater damage of more limited abortion access.
jake 4 that 1
Cut it out! You’re making Stalkin’ Malkin and the Freepers cry.
Mark
July, 2008 – A conservative motivated by hatred of liberals kills two and wounds seven at a Unitarian church in Tennessee.
August, 2008 – Three conservative racists arrested for plotting to assassinate Barack Obama at the Democratic convention in Denver.
April, 2009 – Conservative gun rights advocate kills three Pittsburgh police officers and wounds two.
May, 2009 – Conservative anti-abortion activist guns down abortion doctor in Kansas.
That’s six dead and nine wounded from conservative terrorism in the past year. And I’ve probably forgotten an incident or two. Is this a pattern? You decide.
cleek
oh, well then. say no more. if the dusty texts of a religion invented 2000 years ago by middle eastern nomads say there is justification for murder, then who are we to question ?
Little Dreamer
@Comrade Darkness:
The Old Testament is not Christian, although I understand your confusion.
The New Testament is supposed to be the new covenant (it isn’t, but I won’t go into that here) and according to most Christians, Jesus narrowed the commandments down from ten to two.
Krista
I like the way you think.
And DZ– holy shit, man. That’s just incredibly awful that you had to go through that. I can’t even begin to imagine what a nightmarish experience that was. Thank you for speaking up — prison rape is absolutely nothing to joke about or to wish upon anybody, and it’s appalling that our society seems to have this mindset that anybody who is in prison deserves to be raped.
The Grand Panjandrum
@Little Dreamer:
When in doubt go to Leviticus. The Holiness Code is particuarly enlightening because it outlaws the man-on-man sex, and other nefarious activities, now being forced upon all us fine folks by the President and his sympathizers. (NOTE: The only thing its missing is an endorsement of the 2nd Amendment to make it the perfect Christianist passage. But then it never even called me by my name either.)
kay
@Little Dreamer:
There’s a connection, but you knew that, right?
Quo warranto is based on the citizen grand jury idea, if I’m skimming it correctly. Maybe vice versa? Probably feds first.
I don’t think you get to reject the system of laws, or whatever they’re claiming, only after you avail yourself of every forum in that system and lose and lose and lose. To me, that just looks like you’re rejecting a result you don’t much care for, and wrapping it in some fancy language.
They lost. They tried this guy under every imaginable process, and he was acquitted. Then they gave him the death penalty. Scary.
adolphus
Did anyone else get the urge to sing the old Pee Wee Herman “Connect the Dots” song while reading this Post?
Comrade Darkness
@Little Dreamer, “Christian” seems to be a very slippery word.
Almost serpent-like.
As to your other point. There never were only 10 commandments in the first place.
R-Jud
Never mind that Christian scripture IS NOT THE LAW in this country…
Little Dreamer
@kay:
Well, the birthers are having trouble getting anyone to take their complaints seriously (judges, congressmen, anyone in any kind of legal or government capacity)… that doesn’t mean they won’t feel they tried and were turned away at every opportunity.
tavella
Yes. Prison rape is neither funny or just. I’ve slipped a time or two on that myself, so thank you for reminding me of just how real and cruel it is. And I’m very sorry for your experience.
Little Dreamer
@Comrade Darkness:
Oh, you saw Mel Brooks’ History of the World too? ;)
The Raven
The Saff, #57:
This attack took place on same date as Rudolph’s apprehension. Obsessed people like patterns.
The Grand Panjandrum
@malraux: You could very well be correct. I just don’t believe that reacting to this through some sort of heavy handed legislation–right now–is prudent. A congressional hearing is in order, possibly, but we should refrain from hysterical over reaction. As John pointed out the Patriot Act hasn’t exactly worked out very well. I think it should also be pointed out that the Patriot Act was co-opted by the Bush War Crimes Syndicate. The Democrats actually first put it forward as an immediate response to 9/11 and the Bushies were reticent until they saw the polls and realized this would aid the power grab they were already secretly making. I point this only because the Democrats don’t have a great track record with regard to the abrogation of the 4th Amendment either.
AG Holder has already ordered U.S. Marshall protection of certain individuals and establishments as a result of this assassination.
Little Dreamer
@R-Jud:
But they all seem to think we’re a Christian nation. Nevermind that Treaty of Tripoli or the legal jargon used in the Constitution of this nation that stated that laws were not supposed to be made based on religion.
;)
Elie
The truth of the matter is that some aspects of the conservative movement – its self righteousness and grandiosity — attracts seriously mentally ill and violent persons who are motivated to act out because of their disease. The relatively more sane leaders of these organizations probably know that they attract these folks on the edge and in fact, some of the leaders may be these personality types as well.
To my mind, this puts a real responsibility on the Media (Fox, Hannity, Malkin and others) to watch what they say — which of course they won’t. They need to be sued up the yin yang. Free Speech is not a license to incite to violence and these organizations have a long track record, as cited above, of harboring and nurturing crazies who will act on inflammatory language.
How long can we allow these so called news organizations and other related groups to throw the match onto the kindling with impunity? Can you imagine if a left wing or progressive media group called for secession or armed insurrection to achieve their goals??? Al this recent inflammatory language is of a piece with the actions of this individual — all about self righteousness and the desire to act on perceived wrong doing by “others” — instead of relying on the formal authority and legitimacy of the state and due process.
These organizations by their nature recruit people with personalities and mind sets that are motivated to act on their beliefs. We need to stop pussy footing around calling the organizations who foment this anything other than terrorist sympathizers and inciters. In some ways, they place the gun in the hands of these sickos.
Litlebritdifrnt
I agree with most of the commenters here, this guy is a terrorist pure and simple. I wonder if the wingnuts think it’s okay for him to be thrown in Gitmo and waterboarded?
PS) That sound you hear is wingnut forums/message boards/blog comment sections being furiously scrubbed as we speak.
kay
@Little Dreamer:
The pro-life people in Kansas believe the whole system is corrupt, and that’s why the doctor was never convicted.
I guess they mean all potential jurors in Kansas are corrupt, because he went before two juries.
Imagine that hubris, huh? We’re all crooks, compromised, except for the members of Operation Rescue.
Little Dreamer
@kay:
Don’t have to tell me, I have a brother who lives in Wichita.
Kryptik
The sad thing about the nutters who “kill for Christ” as it were seems to be the fact that they seem to never, ever, ever, ever fall back on Christ himself to justify themselves. They always seem to fall back on that Old Testament, you know. Most of the good “Christian” representatives we see on television and in the public and political discourse seem this way, but it’s especially magnified for the extremists who cite God as their reasoning.
And I want to hear the hemming and hawwing of the assholes who will forever insist that war protesters are in more need of watching for possible terrorism than nutters like this. I’m not sure when the last casualty from anything that could be ascribed to ‘left wing extremism’ was.
Michael
Anybody notice that Rudolph never got his deserved needle and that none of the good conservative white Christian folks in Western North Carolina (the ones who fed, sheltered and clothed him while knowing he was a fugitive) were never tracked or prosecuted?
You’d think that one of the things that the prosecution team would have gotten from him (preferably by waterboarding) in exchange for keeping him alive was the identity of those who helped him.
R-Jud
@Little Dreamer: Nevermind that Treaty of Tripoli or the legal jargon used in the Constitution of this nation that stated that laws were not supposed to be made based on religion.
Kryptik
@Litlebritdifrnt:
But don’t you know? You can’t be a terrorist unless you’re brown-skinned, or protest for things like anti-war movements or equal rights, you know?
Sad fact of the matter is, no one will call a spade a spade with these bastards. Even when caught red handed, like William Krar and his cyanide bomb, they’ll never be called what they truly are: domestic terrorists.
That’s only reserved for people who burn hummers or vacant condos.
Incertus
@Jay C: I did a recap late last night of right-wing blog reactions and most contained some sort of condemnation, but many of them hedged it by noting that, in their eyes, Dr. Tiller was a monster who was probably burning in hell. Classy folks.
EconWatcher
DZ, I am very sorry for what happened to you. It’s a terrible blight on this country that we allow such things to happen. It could be stopped if enough people cared.
Honestly, while I completely agree with the condemnations of official torture against terror suspects, I think the discussion is a little surreal. Torture is routine in our regular prisons. We allow the most terrible tortures to be committed against young prison inmates, and late-night comedians casually joke about it. Maybe we could do something about that at the same time that we dismantle the illegal interrogation regime constructed by the last administration.
Pangloss
Is this where a lackey for the Bush administration would have made a statement beginning with, “No one could have predicted…..?”
Argive
@NonyNony:
Yes, of course you don’t have to go too far these days to find someone who thinks that David Koresh was totally harmless. Politically motivated murder’s not as bad when the murderer agrees with you, right? Hooray for cognitive dissonance. After Obama won, I remember thinking about how the the next four years would see a tidal wave of conspiracy theories so crazy that they’d put Vince Foster/Troopergate to shame. We’re seeing it now, and violent nuts always go along with something like that.
Maybe (I’m Jewish, but most of the pretty violent stuff comes from the Torah). OTOH, we have Zachariah 4:6:
I also like Deutoronomy 16:20:
Most biblical scholars agree that “justice” is said twice because it’s once for the ends, and once for the means. Of course, since so many wingnuts have refined intellectual dishonesty to an art form, I don’t expect Mr. Leach to have paid attention to these two passages.
Krista
Nuh-uh. They believe that they are firmly justified in calling for Tiller’s death, and that anybody who disagrees with them is a fascist trying to stifle their freedom of speech. Believe me, if any of these people get a little visit from the FBI, they’ll interpret it as that fascist Obama cracking down on his political enemies and trying to make it illegal to be pro-life, and will cry “victim” to all and sundry.
Mark my words.
Little Dreamer
@Krista:
I think you are correct Krista. I haven’t gone looking, but it seems to me that Freepers being embarrassed about their viewpoint is not a probability. Maybe I’m just jaded after reading so much garbage over there in the last five years.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Krista:
I was specifically talking about the shooter’s comments, which I believe have been removed from such sites as “operation rescue” I do believe that there is someone out there who is taking screenshots however.
Elie
Krista —
I think that you are right. I think that the only way to bring some pressure to bear is on the “legitimate” inciters such as Fox, Malkin and others and continually labeling and confronting them on it. THEY are the ones who PROFIT from using their rants and melodrama as their own rifs. They have sponsors and companies who want to advertise their goods on their stations or on their sites and I think that we need to get aggressive with them on that.
The crazies are – well – crazy and are inacessible to any logic or incentives beyond implementing their agenda which requires killing people. The “mainstream” organizations who paint their motives as any more basic than that must be punished in the way they understand best — take-away-the-money either through sponsor boycotts or articles and other exposure.
malraux
@The Grand Panjandrum: If politics were normally a rational minded process wherein important and relatively obvious legislation were passed after reasoned debate on the merits, but occasionally were knocked from this state by really big events, then yes, we should obviously not rush legislation. Unfortunately, this doesn’t describe our current political system. More likely, the option is either rushing to do something imperfect now, or waiting till the next abortion clinic is bombed and rushing legislation then, ad infinitum.
Xenos
@Napoleon:
I did not realize there was some sort of conspiracy about the UCC undermining state sovereignty. That is really pretty silly. I was just joking about how the UCC can be a pain in the neck for non-specialists to work with. The fact that the UCC was drafted in the 1930s by a Columbia Prof. who had been awarded the Iron Cross could be fodder for some good conspiracy theories, though.
Since the UCC, among other things, underlies all the transactional rules for banking, I could see how some chuckleheads could conclude that it was the secret set of rules that kept them impoverished and the bankers so all-powerful. It is pretty dry stuff for those addlepated thugs to have to figure out. I almost feel sorry for them.
Laura W
@Litlebritdifrnt: I have such an off topic question for you that even I am embarrassed to post it here. Need your expert advice on something “Egyptian”, let’s just say.
Would you mind emailing me at [email protected]?
Krista
To anybody who is lurking here who thinks of Tiller as a murderer, I am going to ask you a serious question, and I would appreciate a serious answer:
If a woman is at risk of dying or being irreparably harmed by the pregnancy, or if the woman is carrying a fetus whose abnormalities are incompatible with life (its intestines have developed outside of its body, or it has no face, or three-quarters of its brain is missing) – what should be done?
If you are so opposed to late-term abortion that you feel it should never be performed, then WHAT, in all seriousness, is your suggestion for those situations that I have described above? I am not trying to win an argument here, I am genuinely, honestly curious to learn what you feel should be done in those particular circumstances.
Rick Taylor
@John Cole:
I disagree. I admit I don’t know what I want the administration to do; certainly not the patriot act. But there are only a few people who perform the operations Tiller did. Those who do receive death threats, are vandalized, shot, and murdered. This isn’t acceptable. Maybe every doctor who performs this kind of procedure should be given security protection. I don’t know, but the bastards are winning through intimidation and murder, and that’s not acceptable.
Elie
Rick:
“I don’t know, but the bastards are winning through intimidation and murder, and that’s not acceptable.”
I think that they have been shielded by legitimate organizations who cast their crazy goals in a pleasant, non-violent and idealized way — instead of what they really are — a bunch of crazies with murder and violence as an explicit goal.
The Operation Murder organizations will never be controlled except by the right wing legitimate organizations who use the passion from their zealotry to bump up their viewer/readership. They in effect profit from murder.
FOX should be labeled as supporting murder organizations along with torture. There are a number of blogs as well. Many have sponsors who want our business and we should make sure that we use that.
No more of this bland characterizations that lend a false innocense to these groups. They are filled with zealots and with a good number of pathological personalities who are encouraged and succored to do exactly what they have been doing. Enough!
tc125231
@Comrade Darkness:
Excellent points.
tc125231
@The Grand Panjandrum:
tc125231
@Pangloss: “All things for best in the best of all possible worlds!….Any questions? I’ve got the answers here!”
Elie
Krista:
As you know already, this is not about rational decision making when faced with horrible choices. This is about control of women. Hence the passion and crazy. They could care less about the practical, necessary decisions that weigh hard, hard realities — that babies with certain conditions are going to die anyway — and suffer before they die. They don’t care what happens to the children who grow up from unwanted (or wanted pregnancies) for that matter.
They don’t support broad education and access to health care and anti poverty measures for children, for example. That has NEVER been an interest because its not what they really CARE about. They want women controlled and made subservient to our biology. That is it. We won’t get too big for our britches that way and be able to run things they don’t want us to run — we would be too busy being pregnant and taking care of little ones. Its the American Taliban in action — Operation Taliban!
Xenos
@Krista: Like Elie, I will try to answer even though I am not anti-abortion. While the control over women and the preservation of patriarchy is important, I doubt the activists really think about it that way on a conscious level (subconsciously that is probably the main concern).
Rather, at the overt ideological level, the concern is for the sentimental public valuing of “Life” – a sort of magic reification of the “miracle of life”, which to a family-oriented sentimentalist is the most potent proof of God’s existence and the real meaningfulness of human existence.
Any sort of pragmatism or balancing of the values involved in abortion decision-making is a denial of that primary miracle. Choice is blasphemy. This is how Christianists can harass a clinic one day and be a patient the next – as long as they can convince themselves that they have no real choice in the matter, the sin against ‘Life’ is mitigated. And in the end, the issue is not that there be no abortions, but that women seeking abortions always be condemned, that ‘Life’, as a public value and sacred symbol be maintained. The fact that extremists can find permanent employment in the anti-abortion movement is just gravy.
None of the ‘Life’ business is biblical. It is more like a modern political-cultural authoritarian symbology, like the ‘Worker’, the ‘Fatherland’, or the ‘Flag’. We must all bow down to it, or be made to bow down to it.
Kirk Spencer
@El Cid:
OK, I have to object – much as I don’t want to, either. The vast majority of perpetrators of domestic terrorism were on the left. The word for which you’re searching is “ecoterrorism”.
There are more incidents under investigation. There are more (known) perpetrators. Now the fun thing is that there have been a lot fewer deaths from this than from right wing domestic terrorism, but ecoterrorism has done significantly more property damage (measured in dollars).
Just a point to keep in mind. In my opinion, the death toll makes the right-side significantly worse, but it’s not one-sided.
Krista
It’s damn hard not to think that, but I’m just really reluctant to paint everybody with such a broad brush. I think that most of the people who are opposed to late-term abortion have really not thought about WHY it is performed, and what they would do in such a situation. I’m probably being naive as hell, but I’m hoping that at least one person will stop and think about the question and will answer me with some honesty.
I’ve also posted the same question on RedState. Once again, I am hoping that human being to human being, some of them will be willing to engage in an actual discussion about the hard choices that some women have to make. I hope that they don’t reinforce the many stereotypes that we have about them. Maybe it’s a futile gesture, but dammit, it’s always worth a try.
Elie
Krista and Xenos:
It is always worth a try to reach out and discuss difficult, life issues. Just know that if the belief is not truly tied to facts and the reality of what life choices actually mean, you may be wasting your time.
Control of women as I proposed upstring may frequently be a proxy for wanting a certain way of life not to change and less about actually wanting to “enslave” women.
The thought string I had is that if a woman can prevent or terminate a pregnancy at will, why would marriage be necessary or why would any of the institutions that we value around family, survive? Perhaps its fear of that uncertainty – that individual women over time would basically change these institutions. I can understand that concern but the animus around what to do about it is where this gets off the track and into the crazy.
I imagine that the most passionate advocates in these organizations are probably also the most insane. The people around them may see their ardor as positive energy and not spend enough time screening for the crazy thinking and impulse to violence. They need to be asked about that since it keeps happening. A lot.
Xenos
@Kirk Spencer: The Monkey Wrench Gang /= Operation Rescue. Nowhere close.
This is like equating Bill Ayers blowing up a statue to the cold-blooded murders at Kent State. The scale of terror intended and which resulted ranges over several magnitudes.
Should not terror be the measure of ‘terrorism’?
TenguPhule
You’re being as naive as hell.
SOTSQ.
TenguPhule
Can we get a tally of ELF vs Anti-abortion terorrism & Anti-environmental terrorism?
Somehow I get the feeling domestic terrorism is solidly owned by the Right.
TenguPhule
Why should those stupid sluts enjoy straight sex when I can’t?
/95% of ‘Pro-lifers’
SLKRR
@Punchy:
I lived for several years in Johnson County. The fuckhead:non-fuckhead ratio is as high there as anywhere else in the state.
Krista
TenguPhule,
So far, so good, actually. I’ve gotten into discussions with Moe and a few others, and some have skirted around the questions, or offered counter-points instead of answers, but they’ve all been pretty decent to me thus far. One even partially answered my question. I don’t expect to change anybody’s mind, but hell, if I can even show them that not all pro-choice people are baby-murdering fanatics, then that’s something, right?
dj spellchecka
numbers swiped from a huffington post article by Cristina Page:
During the Clinton era, between 1994-2000 there were 6 abortion providers and clinic staff murdered, and 17 attempted murders of abortion providers. There were 12 bombings or arsons during the Clinton years.
During the Bush administration, not only were there no murders, there were no attempted murders. There was one clinic bombing during the Bush years.
In the last year of the Bush administration there were 396 harassing calls to abortion clinics. In just the first four months of the Obama administration that number has jumped to 1401.
her conclusion: When the anti-abortion movement loses power, their most extreme elements appear to move to the fore and take control. The murder of Dr. Tiller suggests that violence against abortion providers may be far more linked to the power, or lack thereof, anti-abortion groups have politically than to laws designed to increase penalties against such acts.
Krista
I think I just broke RedState. I was trying to respond to someone, and got a database error, and now I can’t read the comments at all. I don’t think I’ve been blammed, as that would be a weird way to tell someone.
Pity — there were a couple of people there who were being really nice. Moe was being an ass, as was some “Aaron” fellow, but (surprise, surprise), the women were being quite cordial.
Kirk Spencer
@Xenos: Several hundred million dollars in arson vs several million in arson plus some deaths. Both sides have intimidation tactics, both sides have people arrested for assault. Finally, there’s the FBI statement. (@TenguPhule: this link also responds to you.)
In my personal opinion the talibaptists are more dangerous than the ecoterrorists. In number of cases and in dollars, however, the latter have the edge.
Regardless, I’m going to point out I’m seeing an argument building I personally despise, regardless of position. It boils down to the “not as bad” defense. Paraphrased, “well, our guys may be doing this but they’re not as bad as the other guys, so they should be excused.” In a word, no.
In more words, if the argument was legit then nobody should be convicted of murder who hasn’t exceeded the standards of the Green River Killer. “Hey, I only killed two people, so I should go free because I’m not as bad as that guy.” Please don’t use that excuse – it makes me think less of your intellectual honesty.
Catsy
Perhaps it’s just me, but this does not strike me as an especially persuasive argument.
Kirk Spencer
@Krista: What thread? I just went through what appeared to be the ‘obvious’ and can’t find anything like your question.
For what it’s worth, that’s what happened when I got removed. All of a sudden I got database errors and couldn’t see comments. After a while I got a message saying my privileges were revoked any time I tried to comment while I could finally see the comments, but at first it was the “crap, it’s down” activity you mentioned.
Of course, it also just goes down sometimes.
TenguPhule
@Kirk Spencer
Hmmm.
I dunno, looks like ELF and ALF are about 25-30% of total terrorist attacks in that time period. Not the huge onslaught of the left I was told about.
Krista
It was a June 1st one about “breaking: kansas doctor gunned down” or something of that sort. It’s fairly far down on the first page. I just checked it from my home computer, and yeah, moe has banned me, saying that they have no time for advocates of infanticide, which I have evidently admitted to being. I just tried signing back in, and am getting that error message. Now I can’t even get on to the site to READ it, let alone comment.
Were I one of the commenters at Red State, I’d be a little bit pissed off at Moe, frankly. I was having a good discussion with some of them, and everybody was being very civil, and Moe just decided that because I was never going to agree with him, then I deserved to be banned. It’s really quite a terrible policy — he really does just want it to be an echo chamber in there. And it’s sad, because they had a perfect opportunity to communicate and to have one fewer leftie think of them as just a bunch of dictatorial nuts. But, Moe would rather wield his power and have everybody agree with him, and a very interesting and civil ethical debate on abortion has been quashed.
TenguPhule
Today’s GOP in a very small nutshell.
Krista
@Kirk:
I found the link to the thread.
Kirk Spencer
@TenguPhule: From the article to which you linked:
Also, I went through and counted incidents for 2002-2005. Ignoring the nifty padding from overseas (they count, for example, the London subway attack of 2005) ELF and ALF form the (bare) majority. I could be miscounting – wouldn’t be the first time. However, they’re a lot more than 20%.
Kirk Spencer
@Krista: Thank you, Krista. If I weren’t banned I’d comment. snicker, sigh.
[edited to add] at a minimum I’d respond to the folk who have responded to you and tell them why they’re not going to get an answer – thanks, Moe.
asiangrrlMN
@DZ: I am so sorry that happened to you. No one should have to experience that.
@EconWatcher: I agree with you, too, that our prison system is a disgrace. All it does is produce better criminals.
As for this particular brand of terrorism, I am with Rick Taylor. There are very few doctors performing this procedure in this country. They need to be guarded twenty-four/seven.
As for hate speech…I am still fuzzy on where I stand on that. I will get back to you.
Mike D.
“rightwing extremism” was a problematic phrase coming as it did at the changing of the political guard, and constituted a misstep for an incoming administration. “Domestic political extremism” would have been adequate to express the concept without any trace of singling out particular political views.