I certainly didn’t expect this:
General Motors has reached a preliminary agreement for the sale of its Hummer brand of large sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks to a machinery company in western China with ambitions to become a carmaker, a person with knowledge of the Chinese government approval process said Tuesday.
The Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery Company Ltd., based in Chengdu, concluded the agreement with G.M., said the person, who insisted on anonymity.
Sichuan Tengzhong is a privately owned company, but Tuesday’s deal required preliminary vetting by Beijing officials, who retain the right to veto any effort at an overseas acquisition by a Chinese company and who give special attention to deals over $100 million.
G.M. announced the deal early Tuesday morning in Detroit but said that the memorandum of understanding would not allow it to reveal the buyer or the price. Industry analysts have estimated that the Hummer division would sell for less than $500 million.
BTW, did the Saab brand name just go to hell? I was really surprised to hear they were getting rid of it. My memories of Saab’s are of a 1987 Saab 900 Turbo, with a wooden steering wheel and the patented ignition on the floor, and then later on, a buddy had a Saab 9000 turbo, and I just thought they were the greatest cars. Did GM kill them dead? Or were they never really that good of a car to begin with?
gex
Wasn’t the Hummer originally engineered for the military?
SomeCallMeTim
I have fond memories of other people’s Saabs, too, so I’m also surprised at this. I would have put Saab just in front of Volvo in boho-burb chic.
(Love the post-post edit function.)
cfaller96
It was never that good of a car to begin with. Saabs were great for about the first 2 years, and then they literally fell apart. IIRC.
John Cole
@gex: Yeah, but I don’t think the commercial Hummer has much in common with the military HMMWV. If I remember correctly, the commercial version has a Cadillac Escalade chassis. I’m sure some of the car enthusiasts will know for sure.
j.e.b.
Good question about Saab. I’m driving a 1989 9000 Turbo with almost 250,000 miles on it. It seats four 6-foot-tall adults, has a huge trunk, and still gets better than 30mpg on the highway…with plenty of power. I doubt I could find as good a car new today without spending a fortune.
west coast
Put over 250,000 on my ’90 Saab 900, best car I ever owned. But GM shifted the entire line over to GM chassis and engines, and the brand suffered as a result. Looked at them again in ’01, not nearly the same.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Although the commentary and some of the editorials betray some flavor of libertarianism, a great place to read about this is over at http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com
Saabs have had reliability problems for years, no, make that decades. GM didn’t know what to do with the brand or where to take it. So, like everything else GM, the execs just stuck their heads in the sand and said BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH and pretended all was peachy.
Billy K
Saabs were great. GM kinda fused them with Opels*, the way they do everything, and diluted the brand. I thought the 9000 was still a respectable car, but nothing like the pre-GM models.
(I have a Saturn L series which uses the same frame as the 9-3 and an Opel whatsitsname.)
Brachiator
@gex:
You got it in one. Even though the Hummer is not particularly fuel efficient, the engineering was more modern than other GM vehicles.
There is no natural market in China for a Hummer style vehicle, and not much of a market anywhere else for such a gas guzzler as the Hummer.
It will be very interesting to see what Sichuan Tengzhong does with this technology.
gbear
Well, yea, but you could probably get a dozen or so foot tall adults in most any car. How do they reach the pedals?
The military Hummer and the domestic Hummer are not produced by the same company. I don’t believe that they share any parts at all.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Actually, for a good examination of Saab historically:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/curbside-classics-1968-saab-96/#comments
Sven
It’s been announced that GM is considering three offers for Saab. I doubt the Swedish government would fail to intervene before the brand went defunct in any event.
Andrew
GM basically killed Saab by using generic platforms and killing the quirkiness that the brand previously had. The best example of this was the infamous Saabaru 9-2x, which was just a re-badged Subaru Imprezza. I never understood why GM needed to buys Saab, unless they were upset that Ford bought Volvo and they needed their own Swedish brand.
If Koenigsegg succeeds in buying Saab, the quirkiness might come back.
Martin
Saab never really got off the east coast. Hardly any of them in Cali. And yes, they were good until GM homogenized them.
But you can’t run a successful maker with a market of only 11 states.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
West Coast: (#6): You have one great car….and an exception to the rule. I’ve never known a Saab owner to purchase another one. Every person has had nothing but lemon-like issues with em.
Trollhattan
Feh, Hummer. Good riddance. I’ll be intrested to see whether their suburbanite fans still want them if they’re Chinese made.
I’m a longtime Saab fan as well (the 9kT was at one time the fastest sedan sold in the States and held the 100,000 km closed course speed record) and hold out hope somebody worthy will acquire and restore the marque. They have new models nearly ready for production and GM will evidently support them with whomever acquires the brand (critical, since their platforms and powertrains are needed). That is, if somebody does so.
There are negotiations underway, but I suspect the recent Opel deal muddies the waters some.
http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSLJ58303120090519
PeakVT
Saabs have been based on various Opel platforms for a while. With nothing unique to distinguish the brand it just sort faded away in the US over the past two years. The 9-2 and 9-7 re-badges didn’t help the brand image.
The Hummer H1 was originally a military vehicle. The H2 is a re-skinned Suburban and the H3 is a re-skinned Colorado.
NutellaonToast
My 2003 Saab 93 is great, but it seems to run into more than its fair share of small problems (pinch protect on windows breaking, stick shift knob falling off, etc). I blame the good performance on Saab and the shitty attention to detail on GM, but have no real reason to believe either.
Napoleon
@gex:
My recollection is that they were made by a company called AM International, or something like that, which I think is the same company that makes those Post Office vehicles. I thought GM bought AM specifically to be able to make Hummers for the civilian market.
J. Michael Neal
I ran a parking operation, and I hated Saabs. All of that quirkiness makes having to move them around to let others out a real pain in the ass. Our method of hazing the new guy was to give him the keys to the Saab, and tell him to move it to a different spot. 80% of the time, he came back saying he couldn’t figure out how to get it started.
Trollhattan
FWIW the H1 was a civilian version of the military vee-hickle (extreeeeemly wide on normal roads) the H2 and H3 are rebadged GM crap.
I had an H3 loaner last year and it was the worst piece of automotive crap I’d driven in a couple of decades. a turducken among crap cars, as they might say on “Rescue Me”
Dave
@Brachiator
Maybe line up all of the unsold Hummers on the Chinese/North Korean border?
Argive
So whenever wingnuts want a Hummer from now on to burn lots of gas/kill plants/piss off liberals, they’ll be buying it from the evil Commies?
BenA
It’s pretty much the model for US car companies of late when they purchase a company. Buy profitable car company, sell cheap version of car you already make with said car companies name plate, drive all loyal customers away, end up with non-profitable car company.
Uncle Mike
Saabs are great cars, tremendous fun to drive, but they are very expensive to repair. I had a ’95 900 SE turbo convertible. I loved it. But it was getting old and having more mechanical problems than I wanted to deal with.
My next car was a ’03 Mustang. Not a bad car, but It handles like a fire truck compared to my old Saab.
Saabs are a bit quirky, and their owners tend to be a bit quirky, too. I’ve always meant to buy a newer Saab as soon as I can afford it. I’ll be sad to see the brand go.
gbear
Does AM stand for American Motors, maker of the Gremlin?
Rich
Wow, the memories. The mid-80s Saab 900 Turbo was what I lusted after in high school, and lobbied my father to buy (he went with an ’86 Volvo 240 DL instead, which he still owns).
One of my college buddies had an old Saab 99 with the ignition on the floor, and the manual transmission had to be in Reverse or you couldn’t get the key out.
Good times.
Ash Can
Heh. I heard a news blurb early this morning on the radio about GM selling Hummer, with speculation that the purchaser was a foreign entity. For whatever reason, I thought, “Be a hoot if it was the Chinese Army buying it.” I just figured I was indulging in pre-coffee flakiness.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Hummer has a cache internationally and if you read the press release about this, the word that jumps out at you is “global”. The Chinese aren’t caring too much about the US market with this acquisition. Instead, it *might* work globally for those still wanting to show off how much money they can afford to burn on a vehicle not to mention some very real off-road uses for the vehicle.
The H2 and H3s are far cries from the civilianized H1, in fact, the H3 is nothing more than another variation of the basic GM Colorado/Canyon pickemup trucks. Typical GM approach: same chasis, different tin around it, give it another name. Oh, the H2 is on a shared platform with the Tahoe/Yukon.
Again, these vehicles have serious hauling potential in rugged areas. However, Hummer’s brand image is purely conspicuous consumption.
Peter J
Win.
Gabo
Easy answer: GM killed them dead. I owned two Saabs: one was a pre-GM (1987) 900 and the other was a post-GM (1996). I loved the first one, and unthinkingly bought another Saab when it tragically gave its life to protect me in an ice storm.
The second (GM) Saab sucked. It just sucked. It broke more (I put two, count ’em two clutches in it in as many years), the way the hatch was laid out was all screwed up, the driver seats were less comfortable, the rear seats didn’t fold flat, it got worse mileage, the alignment went out like clockwork, and I came to hate it. We called it “the Lime” because it was green.
I would happily drive that 87 Saab still today if it hadn’t bit the guard rail. Sure, you have to have a mechanic keep an old Saab in shape, but you really can do so for a long long time and have a great car. I flogged the 96 as soon as the maintenance contract expired, because I hated it. I sold it to my mother-in-law for half book value and felt guilty about it.
Omnes Omnibus
Saab is in the middle of a reorganization process akin to, but short of, bankruptcy under Swedish law. GM is letting it go; the new owner should be announced soon. The currently leaders in the bidding process are rumored to be the American investment company, Renco Group and the Swedish sports car manufacturer Koenigsegg (backed up by Scandinavian capital). More info here.
I have a 2006 Saab 9-3 and love the car. FTW
gbear
@gbear:
I got three hours of sleep last night and my reading skills are in the toilet today. Please ignore comment #10. What a maroon.
Stooleo
My dad had a 1979 900 turbo. I remember it having weird stepped pyramid like wheels. It had a spotty reliability record, but when it was running properly, it was very fast. Also it performed great in the snow.
Ash Can
@Rich:
When I worked in Finland for a half a year in the 80s, I dated a fellow who drove one of those. He had to start it with a flathead screwdriver that he kept in the glove compartment because the key had broken off in the ignition. Good times indeed.
BethanyAnne
Yeah, Saabs were spiffy and quirky, but they were basically a dying brand when GM picked them up. Their market share was shrinking, and the time between new models was increasing – it was sort of a death spiral. GM came in with a bit of cash, and mainly switched them over to Opels (as noted above). So, you got a bit of Saab flavor, but not much. It was a shame, as I was one of the ones who liked them, too. But I’m really a bad indicator for where good markets are :-)
Edward, the mad shirt grinder
I love my ’99 (post-GM) Saab 9-5. It is pushing 150,000 miles and I plan to keep it awhile. I once took it on a trip with 3 other guys – it held 4 men, 4 duffel bags and 4 sets of golf clubs. Name another sedan that can do that.
Violet
I always thought Saabs were terrible cars. Fell apart pretty quickly. We were recently looking for a car and I refused to look at a Saab for that reason. Maintenance scared me.
Was in car just a few minutes ago and turned on Limbaugh to see what today’s wingnut talking points were. Issue of the day is that Obama is going to make us all drive around in two-door cars barely larger than a John Deere tractor and with the safety of a tin can on wheels. Obama is to blame because of owning GM and CAFE standards, or something.
Ken J.
Re: “Didn’t See This Coming” : The sale of Hummer to the Chinese has been rumored for quite some time on http://thetruthaboutcars.com , a snarky car news-and-rumor blog which has become essential reading over the last year or so. Possibly Saturn too.
With Hummer, I think the game plan is to maintain the brand for China, where they remain popular among the rich. With Saturn, the idea is to get a brand and a dealer network to sell Chinese cars in the USA.
I think the Hummer brand in the USA has come to signify “rich thoughtless idiot” and I don’t forsee many being sold here going forward, especially if gas keeps spiking up to $3/gal and more each summer.
JM
There’s a mining company in Canada called “Metallica.”
I am not making this up.
El Cid
This is awesome. Now I’ll get to honk my smaller car’s horn at these Hummer douchebags and say WHY CAN’T YOU BY AN AMERICAN CAR YOU CHI-COM LOVIN’ BASTICHES???
uh_clem
the patented ignition on the floor
IIRC, this was pretty much standard on all cars before 1960 or so. A little button or pedal on the floor to engage the starter.
Sab
All this reminds me of a saying a motorhead friend of mine had:
“Where there’s smoke, there’s a Saab.” ;)
Duros62
If Koenigsegg succeeds in buying Saab, the quirkiness might come back.
Ooh, yes, please.
Also, if it weren’t for Arnold Schwarzennegger, there would be no commercial Hum-Vee.
Bubblegum Tate
Yeah, pretty much. Back in my late high school/early college days, I took a summer job working at my neighbor’s gas station/auto repair shops. The places fixed all kinds of cars, but they specialized in Saabs and Volvos. The unofficial theme song of the establishment, as sung to the tune of “Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap” was “Dirty Swedes! Saabs Are Cheap!”
That said, we had a used Saab 900 that I rather liked, though I didn’t get to drive it all that often. It held up pretty well considering the abuse my family heaped upon it, but we also the advantage of being able to bring it to our neighbor for minor tweaks as needed, thereby heading off most major problems before they happened.
Duros62
However, Hummer’s brand image is purely conspicuous consumption.
Which makes this news even more bittersweet; what other vehicle embodies that American sense of international “fuck you-ism”?
Sarcastro
I’ll has 9-2x Aero pleze.
Saab interior, Subaru build quality, WRX drivetrain, STi suspension, slightly better looking nose than the Imprezza.
And a gearbox that will actually go into 3rd! I believe that’s a new one for Saab.
gex
@Brachiator: That’s kinda what I was wondering. China’s not interested in consumers buying and driving Hummers, I suspect.
Omnes Omnibus
Can anyone tell me how long the moderation process lasts around here?
Slaney Black
Like the other dudes already said, GM killed them.
Basic dumb marketing move – they figured out that rich people buy Saabs. So they said “hey, we got a mid-luxury brand” and they started designing them like el-cheapo Audi knockoffs or some shit.
Of course, Saab wasn’t a luxury brand. It was a brand that rich people bought. Because it wasn’t luxury. It was sort of funky and outdoorsy and Scandinavian.
So naturally when they turned it into Euro-Buick they just pissed off all parties concerned and everything went to hell.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
One more thing: John, everybody who follows the auto industry saw this coming, fwiw. There have been loads of rumors for well over a year now about some Chinese firm (there have been many) purchasing some ready-to-be-axed ‘Murkin auto brand. Obviously Hummer was a name being bandied about and quite often.
GM dragged its heels, what a shock there, up until the Task Force told them that their original restructuring bland was a crock of shit. That lit enough of a fire under their arses to start looking for serious buyers. Fire sale prices but serious buyers nonetheless.
Colette
When I was a teenager my father had a ’72 Saab Sonett (2-seater sports car with a fiberglass body) that I used to drive. It was speedy and fun but spent a heck of a lot of time in the shop – the body got cracks if you looked too hard at it.
One day when I was about 17, Dad asked me how it was running. I said OK, but that it had a bad vibration in the steering column when it went over 80 mph. Dad gave me a loooooooooong look, and then said, “yeah, I’ve noticed that too.”
Foxhunter
@gbear:
From Wikipedia entry on AM General:
AM General’s roots (and its location in South Bend) also lie with the “General Products Division” of Studebaker, which, along with its substantial defense contracts, was acquired by Kaiser Industries in early 1964 after Studebaker closed its U.S. auto manufacturing operations. At the time, Kaiser had been awarded an US$87 million Army truck contract, and under government pressure agreed to perform the work at the South Bend plant it had recently acquired from Studebaker. Subsequently, American Motors Corporation (AMC) purchased the Jeep Corporation from Kaiser in 1970 when Kaiser itself decided to leave the auto business. In 1971, AMC made the General Products Division of Jeep (producing contract and non-commercial vehicles) a wholly owned subsidiary and renamed it AM General Corporation.
SLKRR
@Martin:
The first time I visited Aspen, CO in the 1980s, it was almost entirely a city of Saabs. They were on every street, parked in front of every house. It was really striking. Don’t know what it’s like today.
ArtV
GM bought the commercial rights to the HUMMER brand from AM General, who manufactures the military vehicle.
The H2 is built on the Tahoe platform and the H3 is built on the Colorado/Canyon pickup platform, which was engineered by Isuzu. GM manufactures both of them in their own factories. AM General has nothing to do with the H2 or H3.
This sale involves those commercial rights and manufacturing facilities and, to the best of my knowledge, does not involve AM General.
jonas
Growing up, we were a Saab family — in California no less — and the only people I knew who had one. The selling point, for my parents at least, was safety. I don’t know about the newer GM-era Saabs, but the old ones were basically built around a rally-racing type safety cage that practically guaranteed you would walk away from even the most serious accidents. Volvo’s were also built with safety features that were way ahead of their time. The American-built cars at the time were tin-can pieces of shit.
Omnes Omnibus
@SLKRR: They’re all over Madison, WI.
Ken
BenA wrote: “It’s pretty much the model for US car companies […] Buy profitable car company, […] drive all loyal customers away, end up with non-profitable car company.”
Sadly, this is also true when you replace “car company” with “department store.” Or “candy company.” Or “bank.” Or “restaurant chain.” Or – oh, never mind; it would be faster to list the successful acquisitions than the failures.
jonas
@Ken: This is a good point. Can anyone point to an instance where an American company expanded overseas and actually improved the quality, reliability and reputation of the acquired brand? Maybe there are some, but none come to mind at the moment.
TenguPhule
Well yeah, whatever the car did to you, it surely didn’t deserve that.
kid bitzer
i think the chinese can throw 500 million around without worrying too much–they are flush with our cash. and there’ s a lot of global poetic justice in buying this particular brand name.
really, i think they just showed us how you say “fuck you” in mandarin.
Zifnab
I went looking at Saabs when I needed to buy a new car back in ’05. They looked overpriced and undervalued to me back then and I haven’t seen anything to change my opinion since. Mostly just gimmicky cup holders and widgets on what was just another American car.
I settled on a Toyota Camry and never looked back.
stickler
What baffles me about the Chinese purchase of Hummer is this: the deal, as announced, is for Hummers to still be produced in the current plants in Indiana and Louisiana. So, if there really is Hummer “cachet” in Asia, that would mean a Chinese company will be responsible for exporting American-made vehicles to Asia?
That boggles my mind. How could this be possible? Does it make economic sense to sell US-made (at UAW wage rates) vehicles to Chinese customers?
Jim
.
Please, Patty and Selma Bouvier were driving a Hum-Vee before Arnold ever thought about it.
Jim
.
Please, Patty and Selma Bouvier were driving a Hum-Vee before Arnold ever thought about it.
ArtV
@stickler:
I doubt that will be the case. More than likely they will just copy the tooling and build them in China for that market.
stickler
Jonah:
I have one: Aston Martin. Sure, it was an exotic folly (thanks, Jacques Nasser!), but Ford actually cleaned up the balance sheet, fixed the manufacturing process, and increased sales. From the All Mighty Wiki:
Ford actually improved the brand, made some profits off it, and sold it for a big gain.
Ruckus
@Colette:
new keyboard please!
djork
I think George Carlin once had a great routine on Saabs. Sadly, it’s not on You Tube.
Does anyone else remember this or is it one of those pesky hallucinations coming back?
robertdsc
The original Hummer (H1?) was a modified version of the Humvee used by the military. That version was phased out a couple of years ago.
When they first appeared, I wanted a four-door soft top version but the price was totally out of my range.
stickler
ArtV:
So the US plants will just wither away? I’m not seeing any renaissance in US sales for the Hummer brand.
Jay B.
I drive a 2005 GM Saab 9-3 Turbo and a 2008 Nissan Sentra (which is very similar to the Camry) and the Saab is a great car to drive. The Sentra is a good car to commute with.
The 2003 and 2004 9-3 were brand wreckers. Yes, I know the older GM models weren’t Saab-y enough for the enthusiast/niche set, and the newer ones have next-to-no affinity to the brand at all. But since 2004 (when everything about them sucked), they’ve been building them with much more conviction. They may be overpriced, but the Pre-Owned I have was very reasonable, it’s been very reliable and it handles very smoothly — with nice punch. While it’s not a “classic” Saab, it’s been a great entry-level luxury car, and a very comfortable drive.
And plenty of people in So. Cal. drive Saabs — they just drive the convertibles.
The Grand Panjandrum
I owned an 1983 900 Turbo that I loved to drive through the mountain roads of northern New Mexico. I was a great car until about 1998 when it saved my life in a car accident.
dave katz
Saabs are great cars, after the original owners pay to iron all the bugs out. Which most of them do, as Saabs were pricey new and lost resale value with blinding speed. Great for the second owner, not so much for the new car buyer.
Official car of VT, until the agriculutural Subaru had an image makeover and moved up a couple dozen price classes.
Saabs are much nicer to drive. I’ve had four or five of the buggers and they were all at the 2/3 of a week’s pay price point, wore like iron and ended up as high schoolers’ rides…
J Paul
Regarding Saabs…
My family has a lot of history with Saabs – My stepfather still has his 1988 900 Turbo (with 220,000 miles) and wouldn’t consider selling it. It’s rough and noisy and quirky as hell, but it has a character that GM never was able to understand.
Saab’s problems now are a direct result of GM never putting the time, effort and (especially) R&D investment needed to make it a truly competitive brand. Because of this, models grew long in the tooth (look at the current 9-5 for an obvious example, which has been in production for over a decade with minimal changes) and offered no compelling reason to choose a Saab over, say, an Audi or BMW. Instead of designing a real small car or SUV for Saab, GM cheaped out and tried to convince people that a rebadged Subaru or Chevy Trailblazer was a European luxury car. People who are going to spend that kind of money aren’t quite that stupid.
I hate to see Saab go, but their problems are directly related to GM’s mismanagement and lack of support for the brand. Hopefully the next owner will be better…if there is one.
MikeJ
This is what the mafia calls a “bust out”. The execs that did those deals got their money, fuck the company.
Morbo
Surprise 1: Hummer sold. Surprise 2: It sold to a Chinese company.
I guess they’re anticipating a big market for Hummers in China as the people get fatter on all the KFC? Honestly, one of those things would last about 5 minutes on Chinese streets before its first accident. Maybe that’s part of the appeal, survivability. On the other hand, angry fellow motorists are likely to push such a roadhog into the nearest river. They are not patient with blocked traffic.
greynoldsct00
Sorry if someone already answered this, but Saab has filed for bankruptcy in Sweden — read that yesterday somewhere.
I had one that was wonderful and then bought a second one just before the 9-3s were discontinued (the five-door), thinking I’d keep it and drive it until it dropped. That one was a true “saab story” of breakdowns and problems. Had to trade it in, I was a nervous wreck because I couldn’t trust it — I still miss it though. Fun to drive.
Surly Duff
My wife and I are looking for a car and my wife wanted to look at Volvos. We went to a dealership and had the crash ratings in hand. I asked why Volvos were not rated as one of the highest rated cars in crash ratings. I was under the assumption that Volvos were THE safest car on the market.
The dealer looked at us and said, “The ratings started to drop a little when Ford took over”.
We are not buying a volvo.
Ed Marshall
Hummers have been selling well in Iraq and without knowing for sure, I bet they still do well in other countries with subsidized gas prices.
Thomas Levenson
My wife and I had three “old body style” 3 door non-turbo Saab 900s. The middle on (an 89 or 90) was kind of crappy, but the 88 and the 93 were great. Bought ’em for less than 3k dollars with c. 80k miles and ran them each for about 50k more. Sold each of them for c. 2k. Some repair bills over the time of ownership, but nothing terrible (non-turbo, remember). And they were enormous inside. My wife works as a production designer/set person. Hauls wood power tools etc. The Saabs just opened wide and swallowed.
Now my ’92 9000 turbo — that was a dog. Fast as hell, even huger than the 900 inside, reasonable on gas, but everything sucked on it. It even caught fire once. Oy.
But I don’t know why everyone is harshing on the Opel platform. In Europe Opels are seen as and are in fact decent cars. Not top of the heap, but not bad. GM and Ford have build ok cars or better for a long time — just not so much over here.
KG
@ 53: “Studebaker” – now there’s a brand I wouldn’t mind seeing revived.
On a more serious note, hopefully have something that resembles actual competition in the market might actually make things better. Rather than having three trusts running the entire industry.
Anne Laurie
Djork, Carlin’s routine about lousy NJ drivers is the first thing came to my mind, too. “They keep saying ‘It’s a SAFE car.” FIRST you learn to drive, you idiots, THEN you get your ‘safe’ car!”
‘Technology’, or just name-brand cachet? Anybody know how much of Sichuan Tengzhong is owned by the PRC Army?
Ken J: We’re on our second Saturn station wagon — ‘only’ four years old when we got it 18 months ago! — and the Spousal Unit has been grousing about how the recent fiberglass-for-steel bodyswaps meant he’d have to find another brand when the time came to replace this one. Be nice if whoever bought the brand realized there was a market for a reliable car with no ‘sex appeal’ whatsoever, especially if they kept making wagons.
Jay C
I’ve had two Saabs in my life: a 1990 900 convertible, which I had for eight years, and then leased the updated version (a 9-3) for three: I had to return it to Manhattan when the lease expired – on Sept. 11, 2001. I sold the 900 to relatives (how’s that for confidence!) – and they still have it. The husband is a car nut, and has kept it in showroom shape for a decade; say’s it’s the best car he’s ever had. The 9-3 was just OK, though: no great shakes; but the brand was already in decline at that point; GM was trying to make it into the next BMW, and ended up producing Swedish Buicks, instead.
Heh: wonder what Koeniggsegg will do with it? At least the name will be easier to spell…
Sarcastro
When I was a teenager my father had a ‘72 Saab Sonett (2-seater sports car with a fiberglass body) that I used to drive. It was speedy and fun but spent a heck of a lot of time in the shop – the body got cracks if you looked too hard at it.
You can blame Ford for that too. The V4 engine in the Sonett, sourced from Ford, was extraordinarily rough-running and contributed to the fiberglass issues. Shame too, nice looking and performing car otherwise.
V4. Just a bad idea all around. Even with two balance shafts (the Sonett’s only had one) they are rough and noisy motors. But since they were replacing a 3-cylinder 2-stroke motor I guess it kept the ‘feel’ of the original Sonett roadsters.
I drove one that had a Mazda 13b 6-port rotary swapped into it. Smoother than silk, and 200 ponies really made that 1500 Lb car fly. Quite literally. Hard car to keep planted.
west coast
Actually, mine wasn’t all that unique. The guy I sold it to is still driving it every day.
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/faq/miles/all.html
west coast
Don’t think my car was exceptional, it’s still being driven by the guy I sold it to.
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/faq/miles/all.html
mr. whipple
I had a Lark. It was an underpowered POS, but in a cool way.
645
I don’t think I’ve even heard of a Saab before.
The Other Steve
GM tried to turn Saab into something to compete with BMW. The cars were ok, actually had some nice features in both the 9-3 and 9-5.
They set the MSRP to BMW levels and then discounted them by $10k to get people to buy them. This gave the impression that Saab’s sucked really bad.
Jose C
@gbear:
AM General. Formerly part of American Motors, now majority owned, iirc, by General Dynamics. (?)
mr. whipple
I’m finding this whole thing with the US auto industry is making me incredibly depressed, but it’s hard to put my finger on why as I don’t work in it or have relatives in it.
I think what it is that I grew up in the 60’s in a suburb that had a street called ‘Chevrolet Blvd’ and two major car plants. Directly or indirectly, everyone was linked to these places, and the jobs they provided. It was the creation of the middle class.
And I guess that it’s gone forever, and I don’t see anything hopeful on the horizon that this country will ever rebound to what that provided.
I feel like a dinosaur at 48. Fuck.
Andrew J. Lazarus
I had, and liked, three Saabs, the last of which was a 1991 9000 Turbo (Aero but not badged as such), which I sold last year. Maintenance was only expensive for the last year or two. I found the steering in newer Saabs too light for my taste.
My understanding is that the original 9000 platform was a co-production of Saab, Opel, Lancia, and Alfa Romeo. Even with the key in the steering wheel, I thought it was a great car.
wall-e
We loved our “Saabaru” and then my hubby bought a TurboX last year. He loves it and we have had no problems.
canuckistani
Saab was cool when it was made by the same company that made fighter jets. After that, not so much.
Tsulagi
Well, Hummer owners should look at the potential upside. When they take their “Buy American” bumperstickered and flag decaled Hummers in for service, after they drop a couple grand maybe they’ll get a fortune cookie.
les
The anecdotes are approaching data; my 1987 900 turbo was the best car I’ve had. Bought it used, and the original owner nearly wept when he sold it to keep up with a real estate deal going south. Power to spare, fun as hell to drive, better mileage than anything in the garage today. Cargo space was amazing, and in 200K miles the most significant repair was a water pump. I kept up on maintenance, but not much works well if you don’t.
ps oatman
has anyone here seen “who killed the electric car”, a depressing, infuriating, enlightening documentary re gm’s ev1, an exceptional electric car (it looked rather like a jaguar!), that the oil co.s, auto manufacturers and bush co. destroyed (it was too good)? (google “sony classic pictures + gm ev, or go to http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/ev1crush.html. for info on the car).
JenJen
O/T, but is anyone watching Tweety? Richard Wolffe is on plugging his new Campaign ’08 book, “Renegade” (which I simply must and will have because I just eat this kind of inside political baseball with a spoon).
Anyhow, Wolffe just dropped an interesting little bombshell… he claims that in the limo, on the way to the Capitol on Inauguration Day, President Bush and President-Elect Obama were talking about Scooter Libby! Wolffe claims Bush told Obama he didn’t pardon Libby, because he didn’t think Libby showed any remorse, and because guys like him always seem to get off and he hadn’t paid a price yet.
Twisted, but, ummm, wow?
The Other Steve
@wall-e: The Saabaru(9-2X) was a fantastic deal when they started discounting them. With the employee discount and the $6k or whatever in rebates you could buy an improved Subaru Impreza for about $5k less then the actual Impreza.
Steve Finlay
I am on my fourth Saab. The first two were 1978 99 2-door hatchbacks, then a 1990 9000 turbo, now a 1994 9000 turbo. I enjoyed all of them, and they were all reasonably reliable — not at the level of a Toyota, but good anyway. The engine on the 94 (2.3 l with balance shafts) is magnificent.
The cargo space on the old 99’s was amazing. Once I picked up a family of 4 at the ferry, with all their luggage for their 3 week vacation — including the husband’s cello in its professional hard case. Me, the four people, and all the luggage went in — and the hatch closed.
linda
hahahaha…. i’m thinking all those booyah boys won’t be getting the boners they’re used to with word that the chinese own hummer now….
Jon H
I don’t see much of a point in buying Hummer for the vehicles, which are based on GM trucks. “Okay, we bought the H2, but do we get the Tahoe it’s based on? No? So what do we do now?”
I figure they’re buying the brand name and access to a US dealer network, and future China-designed Hummers will have less and less in common with the GM-produced Hummers.
The market they’re probably looking at is the rich-Arabs market.
Weasle
The HMMWVor Humvee is a military vehicle made by AM General, which has no connections to GM. It is an independent military contractor who sold the rights to the name “Hummer” – but not “Humvee” – in 1999 or 2000 to GM. The first “H1″s were actually made by AM General, but soon GM took over, quit making “H1″s and made solely “H2” and “H3” models, which others above have pointed out are merely crappy GM SUV chassis with a Hummer-esque wrapper.
I’ve driven an “H2” and I have to say it was worse than driving a parade float or a Zamboni. It was NOTHING like driving an actual HMMWV, which is wide, but can handle tough terrain and fairly dangerous situations.
I’m surprised it too this long for the “Hummer” brand to go under.
Ryan Cunningham
I still own a running 87 SAAB 900. They are AWESOME.
Weasle
@linda:Chinese producing HMMWVs is nothing new. There are two companies (at least) in China that are making Doppelganger Humvees – and with assistance and support from AM General.
Wikipedia has a whole page on them and their production history.
DanSmoot'sGhost
@uh_clem:
Dash mounted starter buttons were pretty much ubiquitous on cars by 1950, and in trucks a few years later.
This gorgeous 1950 Ford shows an example, the button is on the left of the dash. (And how about the horn button? That thing is a work of art.)
Ignition/starter switches moved to the steering column sometime in the early 70’s. The dash mounted ignition/starter keyswitch was pretty standard in the late 1950’s.
Jon H
@Weasle: “quit making “H1”s and made solely “H2” and “H3” models, which others above have pointed out are merely crappy GM SUV chassis with a Hummer-esque wrapper.”
Or as I like to put it, “pick-ups in military drag”.
The H2 didn’t even have the H1’s high clearance, making it incapable of the offroading buyers fantasized of.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
A buddy of mine when I was in high school had a SAAB. (Yes, all caps. It is an acronym.) If you don’t have to mix the oil and gas in a bucket, it ain’t a SAAB!
LV-426
“We used to make stuff in this country, now we just put our hand in the next guys pocket.”
F Sobotka.
jehrler
@j.e.b.:
Got you beat. 1999 Saab 95 Wagon with 303,000 miles. Original clutch *nearly* made it to 300K, had to replace at 298,000.
We love this car and its 30 MPG.
Actually had someone ask a month ago how we like our new Saab wagon!
I, and other Saab aficionados, hope that getting out from GM will help bring back the uniqueness (aka quirkiness) that made Saabs Saabs.
John Cole
@Ryan Cunningham: Lucky. I loved that car, I like how it sounded, I like how it handled, I just like how it felt. Was a really great ride.
jehrler
@DanSmoot’sGhost:
It makes sense to have a steering wheel/dash mounted ignition key when you have the transmission lever on the steering wheel and the pedal emergency brake on the driver’s left.
However, for a manual car or automatic with the lever between the buckets it is an incredibly natural and logical motion to 1) put the key in the ignition between the seats, 2) release the parking brake lever and 3) shift into first or reverse.
Bubblegum Tate
One of the weirder quirks of the old Saabs: The stick shift. You had to lift that collar on the shifter to go into reverse, and fifth gear was oddly positioned–not all the way to the right and up like most cars, but most of the way to the right and up. Took some getting used to.
Eric K
Martin,
You’ve apparantly never been to Seattle or Portland, there are Saab’s all over both cities.
I’ll add to what others said; GM killed them. The older Saabs had quirks and needed maintenance but were distinctive and people loved them, kind of like MGB, Triumph, Fiat, Alfa, Rover, Porsche or any other somewhat odd, but well liked car with high maitenance.
GM seemed to think the name and body (which they pretty much ruined anyway) we’re all the brand meant.
serge
I’ve been driving SAABs for over thirty five years. I drive them until they’re dead, usually around 250-300,000 miles and then I give them to a high school student or someone in college and they, invariably, get a few more years out of them. Most underrated and fun cars ever made.
Best thing to happen to them is for GM to set them free. I cannot imagine Sweden allowing them to disappear. Eric Carlsson alone will stop them. They’ve risen from the ashes before.
Jim-Bob
re: 40
Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy
And Kennedy was shot in a Lincoln.
serge
@ Sarcastro
You’re right that the Ford V-4 was a rough running engine. Easy to pull out of the car, though. I believe its first auto use was in the German Ford Taunus, but its history, IIRC, began in stationary powerplants/generators. Go figure…
Jager
That ’50 Ford dash was classy…When I was a kid in the 60’s I bought a ’50 Ford Custom Tudor sedan from one of our neighbors…it was 13 years old with 68k on it. I paid a couple of hundred bucks for the car. I blew up the original flathead V8 within a month or two. Since the old man ran a Chevy store, one of his mechanics put a small block Chevy V8 and a ‘vette close ratio 3 speed transmission in it. With all that new and modern (for the time) power, I immediately began to have problems with the rear end, my mechanic pal solved that with a rear end from a Ford pickup. A nice set of chrome reversed wheels on the back and standard chromes on the front, with the front end dropped about three inches, that old dark blue machine was a hit wih all my pals. I can still hear the sound of that small block Chevy at 6000 rpm…
I had a WTF moment a few years ago at the Barrett Jackson sale in Phoenix when an exact duplicate of my ’50 sold for 56K, if I had 1200 dollars in mine it would have been a miracle. I got many “movie star” kisses from my Jackie Kennedy look-a-like girl friend in that old Ford!
Xenos
As a college student in the 80s it was generally accepted among my peers that only the most obnoxious yuppies and profs drove Saabs. They seemed to symbolize the worst boomer-yuppie-’30 Something’ culture.
I can’t remember why we resented them so much, but to this day I don’t know anyone born after 1960 who has ever owned one.
David
As with Saab, the post-Ford Volvos aren’t really much different from what you’d find on a Ford lot; the S40 is built on the same platform as the Focus and Mazda 3, for example. They don’t do anything for me.
I have a reasonably-low-mileage 1991 Volvo 240 that I bought last year. Sure, it always needs something fixed, but that old brick has another 300,000 miles in it, at least.
dopeyo
my sister had one back in the 70’s. she said “buy now, saab later.” she never bought another one.
Brian Griffin
I’ve driven mostly only saabs since 1990. once you get used to the way they drive, other cars just feel out of balance. the understeer feels right, the power is strongest at the right speed. I even like the torque steer–too much power in the front wheels tries to pull the steering wheel from your hands (as opposed to the rear wheels sending you into donuts). my 9-5 sportwagon reminds me a bit of my 80’s-model 900, except it’s about 4x faster. it’s 7 yrs old and people think it’s new– try that with a camry.
gm kept saab from going under, but saab’s always been a problem for gm.
they did about as best they could with the old opel technology gm gave them to work with on the new early-90s 900. at the same time they managed to make their family hatchback go from 40-90 faster than literally any other car on the market, without much gm input.
while the new 9-3 was delayed, saab tricked out the old one to make the Viggen, which outgunned the corvette of the same year. not a popular move. the corvette got much better, and the 9-3 got more bland.
all set to introduce the plug-in hybrid concept 9-3 as an upcoming model at the detroit auto show a few yrs ago, gm literally made saab tape the cap shut over the plug (under the saab logo on the back). because it would’ve detracted from the chevy volt concept.
it goes on and on. seems to have never been a good mix. like a hardheaded kid with a domineering and mostly absent parent.
Mr Furious
Real Saabs are awesome cars. I’m actually eyeing a ’93 (last of the real 900s) on eBay as we speak. I’m in N.C. and they are tough to find south of Philly…
I had an ’87 900S that I put over 260,000 miles on before I donated it several years ago. It was still running perfectly, but towards the end all the little things started to go…power windows, AC—a bad combination.
Fantastic highway car, 30+ mpg even at the end, the best car in the snow I ever owned.
There was nothing I owned in my 20s that didn’t fit in that hatchback at one time or another—The huge hatch would swallow anything, and the floor folded into a perfectly flat surface. A full-sized futon with mattress and frame? Yep. Queen-sized bedframe with head- and footboard? Check. You could fit a whole living room’s worth of Ikea in the back of that thing.
That car could sleep two in sleeping bags with the seat folded down.
Yes, when things broke it was expensive to fix—but what car isn’t? The biggest problem is non-Saab specialists hated working on the backwards engine. Yes, the belts and pulleys were at the back, against the firewall.
That car ate brakes, needed the various pumps, etc replaced over it’s lifetime, but never had a problem with the engine. Ever.
We were expecting our first and the two-door hatch wasn’t really babyseat compatible. I am convinced that car would have crossed 300,000 without looking back.
God, I miss that car.
vanya
I think SAAB was a victim of propaganda from bitter Volvo owners. I’ve never understood the “SAABs fall apart” criticism. Maybe that’s true of the post 2001 SAABs, but my 97 900 SE is going strong and so is my wife’s 1999 9-5. Never had serious issues with either car. And just a look around the roads of Massachussets will show you plenty of 10 year old, 15 year old, 20 year old SAABs out there. Beats hell out of any other GM car as far as durability, handling and comfort. Too bad GM killed it.
Mr Furious
vanya,
That’s it in a nutshell. If you are a Saab person, the car will last as long as you are willing to keep it going…and for many they love the cars enough to do that for 10-20 years.
Any time I had a sizable repair bill (and there were a couple) I was confident I would get my money’s worth out of the car. I kept it until it was incompatible with my life, not because it died.
techno
Had an 84 Saab 900 that I drove 296,000 miles before a nasty hail storm with tennis-ball sized stones smashed it in 2006. Best bad road / bad weather car ever made. Never left me stranded in 22 years.