You probably heard about this already:
The suspect in Wednesday’s shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is James von Brunn, an 88-year-old white supremacist from Maryland, two law enforcement officials told CNN.
How many acts of right-wing terrorism have to occur before DHS is allowed to start keeping track of it?
I really don’t get the conservative reaction to the original DHS pronouncement. No one is trying to lump angry Red State commenters in with honest-to-God terrorists…except, weirdly enough, the Red State commenters themselves.
There are crazy people out there shooting up abortion clinics and Holocaust museums. These people identify with causes normally described as right-wing. Deal with it. Tea bag away to your heart’s content. It’s not til you start plotting to kill people that DHS should take an interest. If anyone starts spying on you prior to that, then I, the ACLU, and dirty hippies everywhere will support your grievances.
Update. Here’s some stuff the guy wrote (edit: and someone else posted) at Free Republic via google cache. (Free Republic has now pulled the thread.) But, no that doesn’t mean I think all Freepers should be investigated.
Xanthippas
Though really, would that be such a bad idea?
Joshua Norton
White bigot, pissed-off, old, christianist and a gun owner: gee, anyone see a deadly pattern forming here?
Guess it’s time to recirculate that “unfair” report on right-wing extremist groups one more time.
PaulW
Gasp.
But don’t you know it’s the DFH what hate everyone and want us all deed.
Dunt u dare pick on us pore rightthinking conservatives that done luv Amurika unless u want us shooting u like the rabid dogz yu are. Know what, lets just sheut yu anyhoo. blam blam blam i wins. Yay Amurika.
/sarcasm
Oh, my heart. You don’t think Ann C. and Bill O. and Patrick B. are gonna take this the wrong way do you?
DougJ
Yes, it would. People have every right to say crazy things about birth certificates and silly putty and tax holidays on the internet. That’s what first amendment is all about.
Rosali
TPM has a collection of his anti-Obama, anti-semitic, and white supremacist writings.
anon
OT but only a little http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/06/raw-video-cop-tasers-72-year-old-granny/
JenJen
Thanks for the thread, DougJ.
I’ve never understood that either. People like Michelle Malkin heard “right-wing extremists” and immediately thought, “Hey, they’re talking about me!” Of course, over at her site on the thread about today’s events, her commenters, rather than expressing shock and horror, are complaining that all white conservatives are about to be lumped into von Brunn’s group by the MSM, and that Janet Napolitano is probably doing a dance in her office.
To say that these people sicken me is an understatement.
@Joshua Norton: Actually, the shooter has claimed in the past that both the Holocaust and Christianity are hoaxes. He’s of the Roman/Aryan nut-variety.
sophronia
The lesson these guys took from the Tiller assassination is if they want to get things done, they need to start shooting. Forget teabagging, forget the wink-and-nudge politicians. Violence is what works. These are the same people who think William Ayers and al-Quaeda just bought themselves a stealth POTUS.
It’s going to be a bloody next couple of years.
Augustine
There were at least two large school groups there, including my son and daughter. Thankfully, they are all reported to be safe. I feel concern and gratitude for the wounded security guard.
As for the wingnut, that type of insanity defies a sane emotional response. A clear pattern of sociopathy seems to exist, and it would be wonderful if weapons were out of reach for someone so unbalanced. So, thank you, NRA.
DougJ
I’m glad to hear they’re okay.
Seebach
He was apparently wearing a confederate cap, and was big on the Obama birth certificate controversy.
AnotherBruce
Really I don’t think we should give a flying fig what the whiny babies as Red State think. The world doesn’t revolve around them. People got shot today for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Can’t they shut up for one fucking minute and think about somebody else.
Ann B. Nonymous
They expect to be profiled, because they’re the type of people who do profile.
Although I’m sure a few see deeper similarities between themselves and Bricko von Brunn.
JenJen
@Augustine: My sincere gratitude to the security officer as well, Augustine, and I hope for a speedy recovery; unfortunately, he is reported to be in grave condition. From accounts so far, that officer saved many lives today.
It must have been a horrifying few hours for you; I’m so glad your children are ok.
Sirkowski
Right-wingers feel they’re being lumped with extremists because, really, they’re not that different. They’re just as crazy, except that in cases like Malkin, Coulter and Bill ORLY, they’ve got too much to lose to really act on their impulses.
MikeJ
If you hate the US enough to brandish the paraphernalia of treason why do you care about who the president is?
cleek
he’s a Birther and a Freeper ! (search for “Obama is missing”)
TenguPhule
Very suspicious.
lilysmom
@JenJen:
What JenJen said.
MikeJ
Scrubbed.
Zifnab
But I was told the Liberals are the ones who hate all the Jews. I mean, if its true he had questions about Obama’s birth certificate and was wearing a confederate cap, doesn’t that just indicate that A) even liberals don’t trust Obama and B) liberals are racists?
This guy could be just as bad as Mary Sotomayor. You don’t even know.
Brick Oven Bill
The running average, at least a year or so back, is one Chicago school child being shot daily. Perhaps we should send DHS there too. That is a lot of terrorism.
cleek
lame.
Google search. it’s the 4th or5th link down.
geg6
Well, dude is cited by Stormfront and has posted on Free Republic.
When is someone gonna investigate these people?
And Augustine, I’m so glad your kids are okay. And thank the FSM for those museum guards.
flounder
Anyone know if he is a veteran?
KG
@JenJen:
For some people, having this happen a few time would cause them to engage in a few moments of quiet reflection to ponder whether there is some kernel of truth in that connection. But for the Malkin-types it just presents another opportunity to move copy, or generate hits, or whatever the new standard is.
Xenos
@Brick Oven Bill: Oh, BOB, so you are admitting to knowledge that those killings were terrorist in nature? If you know those killings were caused by fascist crackers, you ought to let the authorities know.
Zach
I’m assuming since he tried to mess with the Fed he’s also basically a Freeman or has similar sympathies; so yeah, the DHS memo was right on again.
It’s interesting that these events aren’t more directly correlated with relevant news. The Tiller assassination was obviously in response to his acquittal, but came a few weeks later. This doesn’t seem to have much to do with anything. I’d naively expect these people to just fly off the handle in response to something specific in the news. Perhaps it’s more likely that something specific triggers rage in their life, and then they go take it out on their lifelong political grudges.
jp2
He also had a military background…just like the DHS reported potential suspects would be most likely to have.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@Brick Oven Bill:
Watch it Bill, your bigot is showing.
Bokonon
I think that the reaction to the DHS report is a classic example of projection (as well as rank hypocrisy).
The GOP and its cohorts on talk radio and the blogosphere)are concerned that the Obama administration will start treating THEM the way the Bush administration treated the left during its years in power. You know … widespread (and usually warrantless) phone and e-mail surveillance, infiltration, investigation of financial links … the sorts of things that could be very embarassing and inconvenient if it happened to THEM.
They know perfectly well how aggressive and widespread the Bush-era surveillance really was … and it extended to ENTIRE RELIGIOUS SECTS like the Quakers.
The politicized outrage over the DHS report was also useful, since it seems to have scared the federal government off from more aggressive action (as we saw from the government’s tepid response as the situation in Wichita was escalating).
zirconium
Eighty-nine years old! He must have been prepared to die. Maybe he thought he would get the Christianist version of the Muslim 49 virgins greeting at the pearly gates if he died. Besides being angry enough to kill, maybe he was horny.
Dreggas
@MikeJ:
The freepers must have gotten practice at quick scrubs after tiller…
abe
Holocaust Museum shooting…
The video from the scene:Holocaust Museum shooting-video
DougJ
I realize you’re a spoof, but to address this point: I’d like the government to take more steps to ensure the safety of the children in schools there, if that is really happening, yes.
The Moar You Know
If von Brunn was a real Jew-hater, truly dedicated to The Cause, he’d have pulled a Scarface and kept taking bullets until he bled out all over the floor. Instead – BAM! – all it takes is one bullet and Mr. Jew Hating Stormfront guy is on the floor, caterwauling about his rights and how much it hurts.
I hope the security guy he shot lives, recovers fully and then proceeds to sue the shit out of every organization Mr. Fighting On Wrong Side Of World War II has ever belonged to.
JenJen
@cleek: Amazing how quickly stuff gets pulled from freepland, isn’t it? I guess they knew exactly who this guy was. Cached here.
@flounder: WWII, PT-boat captain, he says.
@The Moar You Know:
Word. Go get ’em, Morris Dees and the SPLC.
Comrade Stuck
Haven’t you heard?. they aren’t even Republicans anymore, and never heard of GWB. They are true Conservatives fighting the ravages of evil Soci-lists that are trying to destroy Amercan Motherhood and the Capitalist Order of God.
This guy was probably brain washed by George Soros to make them look bad, with the aid of the Red Press. I bet he was even driving a Chrysler or Chevy.
AnotherBruce
Or perhaps we could have and enforce gun control laws so that every mental nutcase doesn’t have the right to a weapons cache.
KG
actually, shouldn’t the elements for “terrorist” attacks include some sort of sponsoring group? Can one guy going around shooting people at random really be called a terrorist if he doesn’t have a political agenda or is associated with some group that does? I’m thinking the difference between organized and unorganized crime as a parallel.
dmv
Everyone should read the “Obama is missing!” Free Republic post from this guy. Well, no, just skip the post and read the comments on the post. That is truly illuminating. Jeebus. Google has it cached.
kid bitzer
@4–
“People have every right to say crazy things about birth certificates and silly putty and tax holidays on the internet.”
uhhh…silly putty?
do i want to know? nah, i probably don’t want to know.
Dreggas
@dmv:
Linkie? I saw the link to the cached one above but can’t click on it for some reason.
Tsulagi
Wait, I thought they were good with that. Oh that’s right, for everyone but those on their “real American” list.
I dunno, maybe we could try out that shiny preventive detention concept car with a local test drive. Pick up a bunch like Randall Terry who never met an abortion doctor killer he didn’t have empathy for. They can have all the lemon chicken they can eat.
Skepticat
A friend whose niece is there (but safe) just called to tell me, knowing I don’t have television. She and I had just returned from lunch, during which we talked about how helpless we felt in the face of an increasing flood of rage and terrorism. We’re both still shaking.
DougJ
The link should work.
cleek
i’m guessing BJ’s backend strips all comment links to FR.
Bill E Pilgrim
Tom Tomorrow nailed it this week in one panel: “How can that be terrorism? Do we look Muslim to you?”
DougJ
Here’s the google cache again.
JenJen
@Dreggas: Sorry about that; I linked to it correctly but hit a glitch. DougJ has the link in the main post now, too.
Joshua Norton
Is anyone surprised that I knew it was a freeptard simply from Fox’s lack of a chyron about the suspect?
Didn’t think so.
kay
@KG:
That’s dicey, I think, but it makes sense.
Anyway, here’s the Code definition:
the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.
Marc
That’s a lot of crazy over there, but I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Comrade Dread
They see you as evil. Probably not as simple as that. But they think that being liberal, you stand opposed to morality, you want to turn the US into Amerika or Sweden, and will use the coercive power of the state to enforce your views and crack down on dissidents.
Therefore, now that Democrats are in charge of the State apparatus that they’ve spent the last 20 odd years building up and strengthening, they are fearful that this juggernaut will be turned against them.
Hence, even the most subtle critique becomes a prelude to rounding them all up and putting them in camps. And a DHS report stating that there are some fringe right-wing lunatic groups out there is akin to saying that you would like to go Waco on the local church because they’re against gay marriage and Pro-life.
Granted, that’s a bit of hyperbole on my part, as most of the full-blooded conservatives I know wouldn’t agree to that extent, but it’s a fear that lurks in their psyche.
What I have never been able to figure out is why, if they fear the government so much, they don’t go the libertarian route and actually try to dismantle/weaken it as much as they can while they are in power.
binzinerator
Prolly been said already but… how do you know there is no overlap between those two groups?
schrodinger's cat
I was there this December, when I used to live near DC. Unbelievable, wonder what he hoped to achieve.
SpotWeld
There’s going to be a really scary bit of right-wing frothing about how the the fact the Holocaust Museum had an armed guard is an edorse ment of the 2nd amendment (as stated by the NRA) which which sadly lead to any (left wing)denouncement of von Brunn as tantamount to trying to take away everyone’s guns.
B.O.B. I’m going to pre-emptivly tell you to shut up on that subject right now.
dmv
Ok, if you’re going to read the Google-cached Freeper page, the next piece of required reading is the Freeper page about today’s incident:
Clickie.
tc125231
@DougJ:
JackieBinAZ
For some reason, it never gets mentioned that far right wing ideology was behind the second-deadliest terrorist attack on US soil.
dmsilev
Besides being an idiot, or a spoof pretending to be an idiot, BOB is also wrong about the violence rate among Chicago schoolchildren. A quick Google turns up this story, which cites 20 deaths in six months, or roughly a tenth of what BOB is claiming. Still a lot, but hardly one a day.
-dms
Maus
I don’t want to deal with people already on meds trying to go off them and provoke their own Ruby Ridge, thank you very much.
binzinerator
Screw ’em. They had no objections when Bush decided to spy on everyone without cause or warrant. They shouldn’t now.
Scott
Here’s some stuff the guy wrote at Free Republic via google cache. (Free Republic has now pulled the thread.) But, no that doesn’t mean I think all Freepers should be investigated.
Why not? Why shouldn’t we be investigating organizations and websites that have a tendency to both support and produce terrorists?
asdf
Oh my God, he’s a Freeper.
What do these people have to do to be prosecuted as a terrorist organizagion?
JenJen
@dmv: As far as that Freeper post goes, it wasn’t posted by the shooter, James W. von Brunn himself. Rather, von Brunn’s birther-rant was found elsewhere and pasted on FP by a Freeper called “wannabegeek.”
So while von Brunn apparently is not a Freeper, other Freepers like “wannabegeek” apparently read other right-wing extremist stuff and share it with the group, judging by von Brunn’s other writings posted on hate sites.
Zifnab
@AnotherBruce: Guns don’t cause school shootings, Bruce, drugs do. That’s why we outlaw the psychodelic murder-inducing substance marijuana, but let any mentally unstable guy from eighteen to eighty with an extra $20 in his pocket walk into a gun show and deck himself out like Rambo.
Besides, have you ever heard of an effort by state, federal, or local authorities to crack down on school violence? Of course not! Then how can you justify doing it to wingnut heroes?
Dreggas
@KG:
DC Sniper. Considered a terrorist but belonged to no group per se.
Marc
Holy cow, that thread is priceless. About a hundred early comments assuming this was a Muslim shooter and actually blaming Obama’s “anti-Jewish” speech for provoking it … and then denials that it really was this guy … and then outrage over Shep Smith on Fox denouncing the birthers craziness.
Someone with the knowhow should preserve that for the ages.
scarshapedstar
@KG:
That’s simply not the case.
Via TPM: (not tagging because for whatever reason more than one anchor tag in a BJ post breaks EVERYTHING)
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/06/von_brunn_revered_by_some_neo-nazis.php
“James Von Brunn appears to be a kind of revered elder statesman of the hardcore white supremacist movement.”
Similarly, Tiller’s assassin was not a lone wolf. The phone number on his dashboard was for a woman who worked at Operation Rescue, herself convicted of plotting to bomb an abortion clinic, who frequently provided him information on Tiller’s whereabouts, and who knows what other forms of support.
Put on your Kevlar, folks. When Glenn Beck tells these braindead hicks that Obama’s going to take their guns away, he’s really telling them to hurry up and shoot the darkies, kikes, and women’s healthcare providers while they still can.
And they’re listening.
anonevent
Do you know how much Oxycontin Limbaugh had to take to get over his being defended by the ACLU? He only accepted it because it didn’t cost him anything. Then he scrubbed it from memory, just like the GWB presidency. They don’t want to have hippies representing them.
Da Bomb
I believe they should be treated like domestic terrorists. They advocate violence and death.
They are so crazy, the Freepers are advocating that somehow this incident is Obama’s doing. They should completely have their rights infringed upon.
Maus
Let alone pretending that the Dixiecrats of old aren’t the Republicans of today. Of course no one calls them out on it, what scum.
Simple, he scrubs it from reality.
dmv
@Marc:
No, no, they weren’t saying it’s a “Muslim.”
It wuz a muzzie!!11!ELEVENTY!1
Bill E Pilgrim
@Marc:
I noticed that it followed pretty much by rote the denial/anger/bargaining/depression stages thing. Though it skipped the “acceptance” part and went back to anger, it appears.
The five stages of Wingnut.
1) Denial
2) Anger
3) Denial
4) Anger
5) Denial
Da Bomb
@Brick Oven Bill: WTF??? Why do you even bother with your incessant, insidious, banter?
You make my head hurt!
Augustine
@DougJ, et al:
Thanks for the well wishes. Our school appears to be turning it into a teaching moment, with discussions led by the faculty who were onsite during the incident.
PurpleGirl
His own web site:
http://www.holywesternempire.org/index.html
He quotes Bernard Baruch. Considering how anti-Semitic he was I wonder if he knows Baruch had Jewish ancestors (including some who came to the Western Hemisphere back in the 1600s)…. (His craziness is in the Protocols of Zion territory.)
Ash Can
I don’t either. But the Feds damned well better be monitoring that site, and others like it, watching for truly over-the-top shit.
David
One Freeper comments that the shooter was “taking his marching orders from Obama” in order to make Birther/Wingnuts look bad.
anonevent
@KG: Terrorism is performing an act with the intent of influencing the actions of people not directly targeted by the act, such as shooting an abortion provider in order to get others to stop providing abortions out of fear. Whether it’s caused by a group or individual is a totally different matter.
Phoebe
Very well put, Mr.J.
JenJen
@DougJ: Might want to change your top post a little… the freeper thread wasn’t posted by the shooter, James W. von Brunn, it was cut from another source and pasted on FR by another freeper called “wannabegeek.”
@Cheryl from Maryland: Horrible news. I’m so sorry to hear that this very brave and professional officer, who undoubtedly saved lives today, has passed.
Cheryl from Maryland
CNN reports that the Museum guard has died. My thoughts and prayers go to his family and his co-workers at the museum for their tragic loss.
As a Smithsonian Institution employee, I feel the security guards at Museums are our most important and treasured assets.
dmv
LOL. From TPM’s collection of things the dude wrote, apparently from his website:
Dude, I protest my white family all the fuckin time.
Tsulagi
You’re right, we should go straight to enhanced interrogation. Saves time. If they have nothing to hide, surely they would support that. I’m guessing it would take far less than 183 waterboardings to confess their involvement in this and other plots afoot. We must prevent the time bombs from ticking.
SGEW
@Augustine: That’s one shitty catalyst for a teaching moment. But at least there’ll be at least one positive outcome from this. Hope the kids are all right.
(As if going to the Holocaust Museum wasn’t heavy enough!)
Cyrus
@zirconium:
I seem to remember reading that he’s 88, although now that I look for links I don’t think anyone knows for sure. Some sites say 88, some say 89, some just say “elderly” or “in his late 80s.”
If 88 is correct, he probably picked this year to do it because 88 has symbolic significance for Nazis. The letter h is the eighth letter of the alphabet, so 88 is a dog whistle for “Heil Hitler.”
Karen
The security guard has passed away as of MSNBC news a moment ago.
DougJ
It says it was submitted by von Brunn, though, meaning he wrote it, I think.
kay
Besides my other misgivings about infiltrating groups and preventing terrorism, does it work?
We have some recent examples of that approach, right?
Where the FBI identified what they determined was a terror cell in the US, and then worked toward proving a conspiracy, by providing them with advice and material to make an attempt? That New York case? That struck me as wholly trumped-up and bordering on entrapment.
Is the infiltrate/prevent approach considered a big success? It isn’t by me, but maybe they have prevented something or other, with this approach.
Seems a little unwieldy, as a tool.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Post #304 is attacking Shepard Smith and claiming he’s ‘teh gay‘.
Augustine
@SGEW:
Yeah, and now the death of that poor security guard makes it waaaay more immediate for the kids.
Ironically, my wife and I were discussing this morning how difficult the museum was going to be emotionally, as it stood
Zandar
I hope that the doctor who puts this guy back together so he can face a trial is a Jewish black woman.
anonevent
@Cyrus: Only if he’s watched Harold & Maude over and over. He picked this year because the blacks/jews/muslims/gays/women/mexicans/lefties are taking over the country.
kay
@David:
I think Birther is a mindset. “Papers, please” about describes it.
I can say anything I want about you, and it’s then your JOB to refute it. Until such time as you do refute it, it is TRUE.
It’s a way of thinking. That’s why they can’t be convinced. You’d have to change their whole approach to everything.
JenJen
@DougJ: Right, I’m just saying there’s no evidence that von Brunn is himself a freeper, or that he posted his own writing at Free Republic. It was posted by a freeper named “wannabegeek.”
Not sure of the original source of von Brunn’s “Obama Is Missing” article, but it turns up on a lot of right-wing sites, around the same time frame as the FR posting. For example, it shows up here, a week before it was posted on FR, with no attribution to von Brunn.
It also shows up at Sean Hannity’s forum… with von Brunn attribution.
SGEW
Here’s another thing that we need to take from this: Security guards need better pay, better benefits, and a better union.
[edit: also, what Zandar said. Karma, motherfucker.]
SnarkIntern
Well no, the amendment is about stopping the government from using its power to prevent speech it doesn’t like.
It’s not about telling people who are wrong to STFU. That, too, is “freedom of speech.” For example, I call upon the stealth bigots like BOB to … well, let me quote Shephard Smith from about an hour ago:
” … people talking about Obama not being a citizen, where is his birth certificate, maybe he is a muslim … that is just wrong, and it needs to stop.”
Fox News, just about an hour ago.
Smith went on to call the kind of crap that BOB posts here all the time ” … ridiculous, preposterous … ” and further stated that the DHS warnings from earlier this year ” .. were for a reason, and here we are today, seeing it come true …”
The truth matters, and lies matter. And nobody has to put up with the lies, or give liars a platform from which to speak.
Right?
Comrade Stuck
As a kid, I got dunked so many times, I should have brought a fishing pole. and never received a “certificate”. Maybe they figured it was a wasted effort.
Kirk Spencer
@dmsilev: No, he’s not. He didn’t say killed, he said shot.
Source
Now the last time he really pushed it, he was objecting to all the fuss about the Columbine anniversary vs the silence here. He got slammed by me largely because he appeared at the time to be dismissing Columbine – unable to grasp why it stayed in the consciousness at all.
That said, there is something wrong in Chicago, and there’s been a great deal of silence at the national level. As of early March there’d been 508 students shot in 16 months. It appears (browsing Chicago news) that it’s averaged one more shot per day since then – at least to the end of May, as I can’t find any stories in June.
NickM
How long til Shep gets fired by Fox? He’s criticising their product.
Martin
It’s true that recently there have been a number of pretty questionable cases, but the FBI has has their successes as well, including a number of white supremacist groups.
I don’t think the question is whether it is productive or not (because it’s both), but how can the law enforcement effort be reformed to ensure that we get far more productive results than we have been. My guess is that a big part will be to get the politics out of it – to remove the incentive for the FBI to push the limits on these cases. It’s a systemic problem that really needs to be addressed because you see the same influence on the drug war.
Bill E Pilgrim
@SnarkIntern:
Right.
There’s such a thing as free speech and there’s also such a thing as shaming and shunning people for what they say.
Years from now people will look back in amazement at what FOX and all the rest were not only allowed to say, as they should be, but also celebrated, echoed, held up as models and heros for saying.
It’s a strange time we just lived through, we still have very little perspective on it in the longer sense.
Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle
Dreggas:
There is always Google cache or the wayback machine. If it is up for longer for 6 months and they don’t know much about computer code, there will likely be a record of it. So their “scrubbing” won’t do much good now.
Delia
OMG. I haven’t looked at a freeper thread for lo! these many years and I had no idea how seriously deep the crazy was. The wingularity doesn’t begin to describe it. Investigated? In a just society they would all be locked in a supermax prison where they could spend the rest of their lives snarking to each other and leave the rest of the world alone.
Now I have to leave and go out into the world with that crap in my mind.
scav
@Bill E Pilgrim: “It’s a strange time we just lived through, we still have very little perspective on it in the longer sense.”
I’m not hearing the fat lady indicating this is over yet.
kay
@Martin:
Thanks, Martin. I don’t know the answer to that question. Prevention brings up all kinds of difficult questions, and should be approached really carefully, and methodically.
We know that reacting leads to decisions we then regret.
KG
@68: I was speaking more generally, than in this specific case. I just hadn’t heard much as far as the facts of this case. I think the code section that Kay points to in 51 makes sense.
TenguPhule
Their fear of government is only that others will treat them as they have treated others while in power.
Evil can never understand good.
TenguPhule
TV is saying one of the shot guard died.
in canaduh
LOL :”He got in under affirmative action and probably graduated dead last in his class. He was so busy smoking dope and snorting crack that he barely graduated.”
and these are the people who supported dubya?
SGEW
Today a white supremacist murdered a black man who was guarding the Holocaust museum.
A line from Ta-Nehisi from the other day is haunting me now:
I somewhat dismissed this sentiment then, but I can’t get it out of my head today. Race, religion, guns, and madness. Madness.
Pasquinade
Freeper post
Tin foil hat time: Rush mentions the birth certificate issue multiple times on his show today…Within a half hour or so of the first mention, shooter does his business…then sissy boy Smith goes spastic on Fox with strong rants about how ridiculous the missing birth certificate issue is. Hmmmmm…just makes me wonder….
300 posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:02:52 PM by IrishPennant
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2268878/posts?q=1&;page=251
someguy
Typical conservative. Anti-black, anti-Jew, and deranged views about the president. Damned if I know why we shouldn’t be keeping an eye on the right wingers. They’ve proven themselves more of a danger to the U.S. over the last 4 months than Al Qaida has over the last 4 years.
Jay in Oregon
@kid bitzer:
RE: silly putty —
In response to Republican Kent Williams going behind his party’s back in Tennessee to strike a deal with state Democrats to be elected Speaker, the fine fightin’ fools at Red State proposed mailing Williams Silly Putty, implying that he is putty in the hands of the state Dems.
Link to BJ thread
patrick
If you can put aside for a moment, the sheer horror of insanity that informs and fills that linked RedState thread, it is filled with LULZ.
kay
@Pasquinade:
I don’t listen to Rush. I didn’t know he was a birther. The person most identified as the leader of the GOP is a birther? Christ.
Bill E Pilgrim
@scav:
Well good point. Something is changing though, these outlets are at least being scrutinzed in ways they weren’t before.
I have weird perspective though since I lived elsewhere for the entire Bush years. And still do.
And we did just elect a Democrat who gave a speech to the Islamic world the other night. And so on.
I think this period is at least understandable, it’s the height of the rabid nationalistic craziness years that are going to really baffle historians IMO.
A Mom Anon
@TenguPhule:
This. But I think it goes a little deeper than that. Not only are they scared they’ll get back what they’ve been giving,they simply cannot believe that the whole world isn’t out for revenge for every little spiteful thing. They think they are the norm and measure everything else from that.
Lesley
What I don’t understand is how we determine someone is guilty of “providing materials” to terrorism, like the Georgia student today. I ask, not rhetorically because I really don’t know, what is the difference between what this former student did and what Rush or Free Republic etc do? Where is the line and do we allow more of a gray area for the like of right wingers at home?
kid bitzer
@114–
thanks. that makes so much…sense. kinda.
at any rate, it could have been a lot, lot, worse.
HyperIon
@Cheryl from Maryland:
As a frequent Smithsonian visitor, I feel the same.
So let’s pay them more, ok?
someguy
@ Lesley:
Ahmed was found guilty of “providing material support to terrorism.” The word “material” in the charge means doing something of substance to advance terrorist activities; it’s like a conspiracy charge. In this instance the young man went to Toronto to plan possible attacks, and then performed reconaissance on places that could be attacked in Washington, taking video that later turned up in the hands of people charged with terrorism in the U.K.
You’d have a tough time extending that law to cover conservatives who merely encourage people who commit terrorism; the First Amendment unfortunately lets them encourage extremist ideology, unless they are advocating immediate violence (e.g. “there’s a librull! go lynch him!”)
jake 4 that 1
The guy who jumped Weisel was a Freepite too, wasn’t he?
Not that that means anything.
Michael
Google Don Mathews (matsuidon), a cop killer Constimatooshinalist FReeper. Also, check out Marc Costanzo, a FReeper anthrax spore terrorist.
Other notables:
icwhatudo, the semianonymous smearer of the Frost family
holdonnow, Mark Levin’s FR nick
There have been others, I’m just having a hard time with remembering names. Almost all of the Schiavo players were there, I know that Coulter has a name she fiddles with (as does Malkin), and I’d bet dollars against doughnuts that Randall Terry is a FReeper.
Pasquinade
@Michael Tyler Froatz is another FReeper who got in trouble with the law
WASHINGTON (Map, News) – A D.C. Superior Court judge refused on Friday to offer bail to the man police say brought a rifle and two knives to a counter protest of an immigration rally on May 1.
Police say that on Tuesday, Froatz, was counter protesting at an immigration rally in Meridian Hill Park when he became embroiled in a fight with immigration rally organizer. According to police, Froatz bent the organizer’s left arm and scratched her hand, before leaving the area to don dark camouflage clothing. Police arrived and arrested Froatz and found a host of weapons on him including a hammer, taser, and a loaded flare gun. In addition, Detective Robert Freeman of the U.S. Park Police testified that Froatz was carrying two knives including a “12 inch dagger-style knife.”
A search of Froatz’s nearby Jeep recovered a loaded M-1 rifle and ammunition. A map of a local embassy and a detailed, hand-drawn sketch of the park with lines pointing towards the center of the protest was found in the front seat of the Jeep, Freeman said. snip
Kristinn Taylor [DC FReeper who is a spokesman for the FReaks], a friend of Froatz who attended the hearing, expressed shock that the “nonthreatening,” and chatty 24-year-old could hurt anyone.
“Like a lot of people who feel strongly about the immigration issue, he was out protesting,” Taylor said, who added Froatz was not working for Free Republic during his protest.
“He didn’t say anything about killing illegals or nothing like that.” [grammar-challenged FReeper spokesman]
ET
When I saw the news on this I was sure that some white nutball from the conspiracy minded white-supremist loony right was the doer. What a surprise I was right.
Watching Wolf Blizter on CNN and the Southern Poverty Law Center guest brought up the conservative right’s outrage about the DHS report and how these types of people got so scared and more active with the election of Obama. The right seems to not want to admit that their loony fringe are very, very dangerous. They will decry the act and then go “but…” or some such qualifier which will still gives these guys some cover. That doesn’t even speak to the what Fox and talk radio does to het up the viewers and listeners that put them in the frame of mind to do this kind of thing.
I just wish this guy dies of his injuries. I don’t want to make a martyr of him or give him more of a platform than he already is going to get.
JenJen
TPM now has that video of Shep Smith talking about “more and more frightening” email sent to Fox News about President Obama.
Good for Shep, I say. But he really needs to think about jumping networks, because I’ll bet Fox is about to receive “more and more frightening” email about Shep Smith, sadly.
David Hunt
I can’t believe I’m writing this. BOB said that there was an average or one shooting per day, not one shooting death per day. I wouldn’t call those two apples and oranges, but I think I’d go as far as apples and apple juice. Also, I want to say that I have no idea the figures he stated are accurate or not. Also, I don’t know the general crime rates in Chicago, how they compare to the rates of other cities, or the number of kids in its school system, so I don’t know how appalling that figure would be (relative to other cities), even if true. Of course that’s a relativistic statement. One shooting a day even in a school system as large as Chicago’s must be sounds downright appalling in an absolute sense, so I hope the figure is pure b.s.
Trollhattan
Just so I understand the freeper mentality (and I’d never read anything there before this cached link):
von Brunn: Patriot (although we don’t actually endorse his methods).
Security guard: Collateral damage.
President Obama: Literally, specifically subhuman.
Sick fucks.
When I, er, attended the local teabagger event in April the DOJ domestic terror memo was the meme of the day. Since then, seems prescient to me.
binzinerator
@TenguPhule:
Every semi-reasonable white racist I ever met who I could get to talk about why they didn’t want minorities in government had this fear.
The rightwingers know what they are about (which is why RSers freaked when they realized the DHS knows too). They project all the time because they truly expect everyone else to be just like them. And they know what they’d do if they had the means and opportunity to stomp on your face with jackboots. Since they imagine the rest of the world to be just like them, they expect that in return.
Ironically, when the expected hatred and oppression isn’t returned they don’t re-evaluate their views. They either think they got lucky, or tell themselves they didn’t get shit on because they successfully frightened and intimidated that person into doing nothing (and also puffing themselves up and congratulating themselves on being such intimidating assholes), or they just simply have nothing but utter contempt for the guy who coulda shit all over them and passed it by. Because they would never have.
Passing on such an opportunity doesn’t elevate the person in their eyes, it diminishes him, just as the greedy think the man who walks away from an opportunity to make a million is a contemptible fool.
Michael
I’d forgotten about Froatz.
Taylor is a complete asshole, and he and his ugly assed bride hate me with a white hot passion. Of course, I could say that of just about everybody in the DC chapter of the FReep, and JimRob, and the FRN folks.
David Hunt
@binzinerator:
Maybe they shouldn’t, but we definitely should. It was wrong when the Bush Administration was doing it, and would be just as wrong if the Obama Administration were doing it. Even if these people have given up any moral right to complain about this, they haven’t given up the legal right and I don’t want to give up either the moral or the legal highground here.
JenJen
Malkin predictably links to this nutty pop-analysis, which says that if anything, the shootings today vindicate Jonah Goldberg, since von Brunn is as likely to be a member of the New Left as the Far Right.
It burns, the stoopid, it really does.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@SGEW:
CNN is reporting that the shooter was 88 years old. 88 is supremacist code for HH, or Heil Hitler.
Also, the guard who was killed was African American.
I’ve been worried about the level of vitriol coming from the right for months now. It isn’t diminishing one bit. All the crazy from the campaign continues to flow. Whether it’s cries of s0cial1sm or birthers or FEMA concentration camps it just won’t relent.
Republican leaders are playing with fire.
jrg
No one could have predicted this, because right-wing terrorism is so rare. I mean, it almost never happens.
Sarcasm aside, I wonder what kind of semantic BS Malkin is going to pull out of her hindquarters to call this terrorism, while avoiding the fact that the Tiller murder was also right-wing terrorism.
They had me up until they started blaming the blogs (as if Fox news was not a bigger part of the problem).
OniHanzo
@JenJen:
From your link:
Priceless. I know I can’t leave the house of a morning without checking my marching orders from AdBusters magazine.
Brick Oven Bill
“The governor noted 16 children — “almost one child a day” — have been gunned down in Chicago since June 26. The shooting death toll for Chicago Public School students stands at 29 since last fall.”
-July 2008
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1060701,CST-NWS-blago17.article
Dreggas
@Michael:
I had forgot all about them. Sounds to me like the Free Republic needs to be monitored as much as the Al Qaeda websites are.
binzinerator
@David Hunt:
You are right. I wouldn’t want that under any administration.
You and I know these people have given up any moral right to complain about this, but they don’t believe that. It’s always patriotic when they do it, fascism when they have it done against them.
Or as Pilgrim noted with the Tom Tomorrow cartoon, it’s not terrorism if it’s done by one of them.
JenJen
@OniHanzo: Oh, absolutely. I check Adbusters for my orders every day, I mean, what kind of commie would I be if I didn’t? First site I click on, right after GOS, Atrios, Media Matters, and of course, 586 and this blog, which both tell me what kind of coffee to drink (Peet) so that I can have a more productive s.ocialist morning.
I truly, truly don’t understand about 25% of my fellow Americans. Has it always been like this?
asiangrrlMN
@Augustine: I am sorry your children were there. I am sorry ANY children were there.
This isn’t the end of the ugly stuff–I’m with Ta-nehisi Coates on this one. I’ve heard the ‘if the minorities get into power, we’re fucked’ meme for quite some time. That’s why they are stockpiling their guns.
And so it goes. As for Shep Smith, I am impressed, but I would be more so if he left or at least acknowledged the role his own damn station is playing in all the craziness.
David Hunt
@binzinerator:
Hey, a lot of the time, being in the right is really hard. It’s always tempting to cut corners of forget that we’re even supposed to protect the rights of asshats, but I’m sure that’s one of the justifications the Bushies were telling themselves while they were trampling all over the rights of e.g. the Quakers. And I truly believe that most of the time they believed that were targeting bad people.
It is my opinion that this is what a “slippery slope” looks like.
David Hunt
Augustine: I’m glad that it seems that your kids (all kids I think) seem to have evaded any injury. My prayers to the family of the security guard.
Comrade Dread
Oh, let’s not go about name calling. Conservatives are people. They run the gamut (like the rest of us) from evil to good to neutral and everything in between.
But there is a certain cognitive dissonance I’ve noticed whereby those who profess a love of smaller government generally mean that they love a smaller government when their political opposition is in control of it.
Death By Mosquito Truck
Guns don’t kill people, wingnuts do. When guns are outlawed, only wingnuts will have guns.
See how I took two popular cliches about guns and made them about wingnutz? It’s a gift, I share it with you.
Krista
They just play the same song-and-dance over and over, though. Any time one of their loonies does something over-the-top, it’s just a Big Liberal Plot(tm), performed by a left-wing plant, for the sole and utter purpose of making those poor innocent conservatives look bad.
Yes, you heard it right. They honest-to-goodness think that the liberals are so organized and so evil, that we would actually go and arrange a giant conspiracy to murder innocent people, solely to have ammunition with which to frame our political opposition.
It says something about their mindset that a) they’re in this much denial, and b) that something this insane would even occur to them. let alone seem feasible enough to mention in a public forum.
gex
@binzinerator: If you haven’t done anything wrong you have nothing to be worried about, AMIRITE?
physics geek
So this rightwing nutjob:
* He hates Bush.
* He hates the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
* Hates Jews and blacks.
* Holocaust denier.
* Hates Christians, especially Catholics.
* Doesn’t think Hitler went far enough.
* He is a 9-11 Troother.
* Anti-Illuminati.
* Eugenicist.
Does that about cover it? Crikey, the stupid here: it burns.