Via Atrios, Biden semi-admits the stimulus was too small.
I understand that official Washington doesn’t like Krugman or anyone who opposed the Iraq war. But at a certain point, doesn’t the fact they are usually right start to factor into the equation?
Obviously, I realize the answer is “no”.
br
Biden doesn’t say the stimulus was too small. He said the projections were too conservative.
And he points out that the payments from the stimulus are still coming through the fall and into next year.
In other words: he doesn’t say what you say he says.
EDIT: Even Atrios doesn’t say that Biden thinks the stimulus is too small. Jesus, DougJ. This is a super sloppy post.
feebog
We are going to need another stimulus package aimed directly at infrastructure. Say another 100B. Krugman had it right, the stimulus package passed in February was too light on infrastructure spending. That said, let’s understand that we are only 120 days into the stimulus package and that most of those “shovel ready” projects are only now beginning to get underway. You want a real measure of how far off most of the stimulus money really is? Talk to someone who works at a civil engineering firm. Most of the projects are months, in some cases more than a year or more from the construction phase.
Brick Oven Bill
Maybe they should spend the money now instead of waiting until the next election cycle. We could be five months in to the railroad electrification project. But Nooooo. Had to give sprinkles of money to State medical plans and school boards to keep them afloat instead. This will create wealth for sure.
American workers cannot compete with Guatemalans and Hondurans who are willing to work for $0.35/hour. If the goal is to bring jobs back to America, the answer is to institute tariffs. 10% across the board immediately, rising by 5% per year until we get back to the pre-WWII standard of approximately 35%.
This would create an industrial base and all that goes with it, along with a large revenue stream to fund government programs.
Walker
Biden doesn’t say the stimulus was too small. He said the projections were too conservative.
Which everyone with have a brain knew in April. Back then Roubini and CR were saying that not only were the baseline estimates garbage, but the worst case estimates were garbage.
Robertdsc-iphone
what kills me is that during the negotiations for the first package, a report came out that detailed how far behind the country was in terms of infrastructure upkeep. It said something like 3-4 trillion dollars’ worth. I said at the time that the White House should scrap every tax cut and credit and go with infrastructure, but that didn’t happen.
In all honesty, if any politician utters the phrase “tax cut”, I’m gonna bash their head in with a shovel. The White House fucked up by using so much of the money for tax cuts that it makes me sick.
The Raven
“But at a certain point, doesn’t the fact they are usually right start to factor into the equation?”
No, no, no, that’s for geeks. They’re perfect and popular and they run things.
You only thought you got out of high school.
br
@Walker: Sure, that’s fine. Attack the projections. Biden admits the projections were wrong. He doesn’t say the stimulus was too small. I’m just saying that DougJ is mischaracterizing Biden’s statement leading to a sloppy post.
Lola
Sorry, if the stimulus had been significantly bigger, Obama would have zero political capital for health care. Americans do start to get nervous about spending when politicians are honest and say what something is going to cost.
inkadu
@Robertdsc-iphone:
I like it! This could be the new progressive argument to politicians: “I have a shovel. I can use to maintain our nations highway system, respandrel some bridges, revivify rail lines, OR I could use it to bash your head in. Your choice, senator.”
—
Also, whatever the case with the stimulus, Biden has to get it through the Senate, something Krugman doesn’t have to worry about… so lets give the guy a break and just be grateful he isn’t backstabbing Obama on the creditors rights business.
John Hamilton Farr
Haven’t visited Atrios in months. Is he actually writing anything these days? :-)
inkadu
@Lola: I’m with you, Lola. Obama’s already taking a beating from the stupids about the amount of money he’s spending. Of course, the stupids don’t compare it against the cost of the Iraq war (which is more than a waste of money), and they don’t know how to think in more than hundreds and thousands, nor do they likely understand ‘priming the pump.’ it’s going to cost. and better to do it in stages than all at once. i think now people are used to the IDEA of stimulus, and soon people will become bored with the actual numbers.
the totality of american stupidity can, at times, be a benefit.
Zifnab25
Specter, Collins, and Snowe had a stronger had in the negotiations on the first go around. And the AMT patch was in the cards for years. The GOP had wanted to leverage into a new tax bill that would cut the corporate rate. Now they’ve been forced to play a trump to hamper the stimulus.
I imagine the health care bill is going to eat a great deal of political capital. I don’t see another infrastructure bill till 2011.
inkadu
Comments on the ABC site are mind-bending.
(that one’s my favorite, ‘cuz the guy obviously thinks that the stimulus money does nothing unless it completely fixes the problem)
Alternately scary and humorous. Scamorus.
SGEW
Most of my laughter has been of the nervous variety since 2001.
tomjones
Well, that’s all well and good. But the choice was between passing a flawed “too small” stimulus or not passing a stimulus bill that Krugman would have approved of.
Now that we ostensibly have a filibuster-proof Dem majority, the calculus on a 2nd stimulus, if any, may be different.
Punchy
OT:
Just a f’in amazing Wimbly final going on. Already 13-12 in the final set. Make that 13-13. Unfuckinreal
tomjones
@Robertdsc-iphone: You have to ask yourself, would 3 Republican Senators have voted for the stimulus without those tax cuts?
I say no. And without those 3 Senators, we have no stimulus.
Would you prefer no stimulus to the flawed stimulus we have now?
Josh Huaco
Sometimes I worry about how pitiful science education is in this country. But then I think about how we’re a nation with gnat-sized attention spans, and it all makes sense.
FWIW, we had about 14 days of 100+ temps here in Waco this June, well above-normal. Which neither disproves nor proves anything of course. I just wish some people would put some intellectual back-muscle into their denials of reality.
Bill E Pilgrim
I now officially prefer reading the transcript of Staphlococculus’s show from the Culture of Truth.
Stephanolpous: but Paul Krugman says you need a new stimulus bill – bigger badder and uncut!
Biden: for god’s sake half the congress says it’s too big and now you say it’s too small – how many nobel prizes has Krugman won?
Stephanolpous: one
Biden: oh right
Brick Oven Bill
Re: Climate Change and the Economy
Global warming theory states that with increasing concentrations of CO2, the earth will become increasingly insulated, and temperatures will accelerate upward. This is the ‘hockey stick’ argument. The data for the last decade does not back this up and the raw data, if anything shows a cooling trend. It is rational that CO2 would not be a big contributor to theoretical global warming as we are only talking about 0.0007% of the atmosphere.
But even then, the raw data is misleading as it does not take into account the urban heating effect. Here is a good point paper on urban heating adjusting temperature readings.
I used to think that the people who argued that the President was purposefully attempting to take down the economy were a little nuts. Now I am not so sure. He has to know that windmills are a fraud by this point. He also has to know what Cap and Trade will do to the industrial base. Or perhaps he is not intelligent, and this is why he cannot articulate thoughts without a talking aid. To be fair, Sarah Palin also uses a talking aid.
On occasion.
Brien Jackson
You mean like…Barack Obama? :P
Demo Woman
I know this is ot but the Wimbledon match was unbelievable. The only disappointment was that someone had to lose.
AhabTRuler
Not true. A real winner would have quit before the end of the match.
LD50
It’s a good thing you added this, you spared yourself having about thirty people reply “Of course not, Doug, Jeez! SATSQ!”
LD50
Which is no doubt why we heard so little about the potential financial cost of the Iraq war.
tomjones
@Brick Oven Bill: Are you satirizing yourself now?
br
@AhabTRuler: WIN.
Wow.
SiubhanDuinne
AhabTRuler/23
FTW!
Comrade Jake
@Walker:
I’m pretty sure Roubini has also said that Obama’s economic team has gotten things mostly right so far, including the stimulus.
Demo Woman
@AhabTRuler: Yeah, According to Sarah, Roddick won!
jrg
Biden puts foot in mouth. Story at 11.
As has been discussed, unemployment is a lagging indicator. It does not tell us, this early in, if the stimulus is working. I think that’s what Biden was getting at when he rolled back after admitting the economists initially misjudged the state of affairs.
At this point, inflation can be a big worry if we pump too much money into the economy. It seems like overcompensating before getting a good measurement is a risk we might not want to take at this time.
Brick Oven Bill
tomjones; No. Those are facts and rational reasonings.
One thing you cannot fault the Obama Administration for however is audacity. Here, the Obama campaign, Administration, or whatever you want to call it advocates repealing the 22nd Amendment. This is so he can stay in office forever, you see. This is because he is the greatest President evah.
This is likely why he sides with the Honduran President who wants to throw out the Honduran Constitution, and hold on to power, just because. The Honduran military stepping in to honor their oaths is a potentially threatening act to this American President.
Leelee for Obama
@Lola: This.
The healthcare bill is probably the most important one that will happen in this first term. Political capital is necessary to get it done. To say nothing of the ACES which will get the energy situation under some kind of control. The economy will benefit from both of these bills and anyone who isn’t a complete “fingers-in-their-ears” idealogue knows it. They are all jobs bills and we need all of it and maybe more. You don’t cure 35 to 65 years of BS all at once, cause the peeps get scared too easily. For a nation of “rugged individualists” we really have way too many candy-asses.
In answer to your question, DougJ, no, they will never admit the we were right. Never. That would embolden someone or other and we can’t have that, now can we?
inkadu
@Brick Oven Bill: Hi, Brick Oven Bill, the scientific breakthrough you are referring to is filed under “opinion” and is introduced thusly:
I don’t find conclusions by random, untrained readers particularly compelling.
Blogreeder
Speaking of Krugman, I once read that he thinks that a 70 percent tax rate is a good idea. He was comparing the tax rate of Sweden and the US. Unfortunely I don’t know where I read it so I can’t provide a link. I would like to read that piece by him again but I can’t find it. Has anyone else read that?
dbrown
@Brick Oven Bill: Ignorance is stupidity when you refuse to learn facts and spew lies. Go to RealClimate (http://www.realclimate.org/)and learn what you are talking about. You are wrong and stating proven falsehoods.
SGEW
Is B.O.B. confusing weather and climate again? Realclimate. org is wasted on him.
Bill, this really is the best link for you. Try it, please, in all seriousness.
LD50
Was it right after your last head injury that you started remembering that?
SGEW
You say “70 percent tax rate” as if that were a bad thing.
superdestroyer
It is less than three months before the start of the next fiscal year. Instead of having Congress waste time on some sort of emergency appropriation, why not have everyone concentrate on the 2010 federal budget and have all appropriation bills on President Obama’s desk before Labor Day. That way the government will not have to operate under a continuing resolution and Congress can have all of the funding on budget and done on time.
If Democrats are going to talk about wanting to govern well then they need to do something that the Republicans never could do, have the budgets done on time.
inkadu
@Brick Oven Bill: On Obama and the 22nd. First of all, the link you posted to is a community post… I am not sure what the posting/review requirements are, but I hardly think some enthusiastic Obama supporters equal an official Obama position.
Secondly, the 22nd amendment is an amendment. It can be repealed. To repeal an amendment is a pain in the butt. 2/3 majority in house and senate, and then 3/4’s of all states. I find it highly unlikely that Obama would be able to repeal the 22nd, and even more unlikely that he would want to.
EITHER WAY, to repeal an amendment through the constitutional method is by definition constitutional. If you think that 2/3’s of the legislature and 3/4’s of the states DON’T have a right to create an amendment, maybe you can take it up with Madison.
And I don’t think the 22nd amendment should be your primary concern. If Obama has that kind of support, you’ll be watching the 2017 Obama inauguration from the inside of a re-education camp.
Brick Oven Bill
dbrown;
I have just read the Real Climate blog you suggested, or at least the front page with all of the recent postings, and if there were data that made a case for Global Warming, I did not see it.
What is a fact is that CO2 makes up 0.028% of the earth’s atmosphere, 95+% of it comes from sources other than man, and we might be able to reduce our usage of it 5% without causing a massive reduction in human biomass (Billions of people starving or otherwise tipping over).
The fact is thus that the debate is about 0.0007% of the earth’s atmosphere, which to me would not be capable of causing the earth to become more insulated. This is evidenced by the leveling off or cooling of the earth’s atmosphere since 1999, when the hockey stick theory was all of the rage.
You need to understand that ‘Climate Scientists’ make their money from studying this subject and proposing theories. If this is proven to all be a bunch of bunk, as I suspect it is, they are out of work. They probably have very few marketable skills other than collecting government grants.
inkadu
@LD50: The blogpost about Sweden is here. In it, Krugman says that Swedish taxes got absolutely nuts (above 100% in some instances) in the 80’s and it hurt the economy, but they pared it back and now, with a growing economy and an excellent safety net, taxes are 68% of GDP.
Krugman’s main argument is that you can have high taxes, a growing economy, and a strong social safety net. I don’t see where he says we should raise our tax rate to 70%.
LD50
Sounds like a hell on earth.
cyntax
@inkadu:
Also worth noting that before Reaganomics the tax-rate for the top income bracket was 70%. So without more context it’s a little hard to even understand what is meant by a statement like “he thinks that a 70 percent tax rate is a good idea.”
Bill E Pilgrim
@inkadu: Actually Krugman says “supposedly” there were stories of taxes above 100%, and that now, taxes are 63% of GDP.
And just to be clear that those aren’t parallel figures, that’s percentage of GDP, not the average tax rate. US taxes are 34% of GDP, by comparison.
For comparison of average tax rates, here’s data from 2004, just from a quick Google:
So the US pays 34% of its gross domestic product in taxes, yet from many quarters you’d think we’re drowning in taxes that are strangling the economy and stifling growth and so on. Sweden is the highest around, in that year at least, and they have universal health care and the economy has been doing well, which was Krugman’s point. Which disproves the strangulation by taxes theory, even for the country with the highest tax rates out there.
Bill E Pilgrim
Timed out before I could get the link for that in, it’s here.
inkadu
@Brick Oven Bill:
Sigh. First of all, Bill, things are more complex than you might think, and that you have an opinion about something is very nice and all, but science isn’t the opinion page of the Washington Post. You can say, “It doesn’t make sense to me that the earth revolves around the sun, when it’s obvious that the sun goes around the earth.” You could say that, but you would obviously be an idiot.
Secondly, heat exchange between the earth and space is a balanced system. If you and I weight exactly the same and got on a teeter-totter, and a leaf landed on my side, you would soon be up in the air saying, “The fact is that that leaf weighs about .00007% of what we weigh together, which to me would not be capable of lifting me up into the air.” You could say that, but obviously you would be an idiot.
Third, not all molecules are created equal. They have different properties. Some molecules might have a very strong effect anything to do with how many of them you have. For instance, you can put a salt crystal in a pile of sand and come back the next day. The salt crystal will still be there. Then you can drop that salt crystal in a thimbleful of water, and the salt crystal will be gone. You can say, “But, but, I put like three pounds of sand on the salt crystal and it did nothing. I refuse to believe that a few drops of water could do something that a gallon of sand could not.” But if you said that, you would obviously be an idiot.
Mike G
I’ve never heard more solid evidence in all of my life. Of something you said you read once. That you now cannot find. I’m totally convinced.
Comrade Jake
@Brick Oven Bill:
Wow BOB, maybe the links to the kids pages really are more appropriate for someone like you. I mean, if you can’t be bothered to explore a page like that even a little bit, perhaps it’s safe to assume you’re only reading at the fifth grade level.
SGEW
@inkadu: Re: B.O.B.
Just to remind everyone, Bill has publicly advocated the repeal of the 14th, the 19th, and the 24th Amendments.
LD50
@Mike G:
I assume Blogreeder is trying to draw on all the good will he’s accumulated here by getting us to do his research for him. Maybe he’s really Doughy P.L. under an assumed name?
inkadu
Pi@cyntax:
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I thought it was queer to compare a tax-by-GDP to something like a “tax rate.” It’s like apples and ankles.
And the reason, the real reason, the reason no politician is allowed to talk about, that the United States is so short of cash for social programs is because most of our money is tied up in military spending. I’m more likely to be killed by an untreated colon cancer than to be killed by a Chinese bullet, so I know where I would like my tax dollars to go.
But since conservatards always say the tax rates should be lower, I like to ask them, “What would be the right tax rate?” That always shuts them up, because they can’t ever seem to get their mind around the simple fact that taxes are necessary, but they know enough not to say “0%.” They would rather play the game of, “You propose a tax rate. Now ask me if it’s too high, too low, or just right. It’s too high! Ok. Try again. Nope! Still to high! Come on, I am enjoying this debate. Very informative. No! Man! Too high! I am totally kicking your ass in this battle of wits. Try again! Too high AGAIN! Its like you don’t even understand basic economic theory. Stupid liberal. Give me another number. Go on. No, seriously. I am engaging you in debate. Are you afraid to engage in debate? I am an elected official. I represent half of an entire state. Come on. Respect the people! Respect the people! TOO HIGH! TOO HIGH! If this was the Price is Right, you’d be sitting back in your folding chair in the studio audience. Give me another number, just throw one out there. Any number. Ok, Alex, what is I am a tax-and-spend commie liberal? TOO HIGH! You just got served, buddy. You are on the slow bus debate team today. Ok, one last chance, I have to go to a Club for Growth fundraiser in a few minutes. And… survey says… BZZT! Too high, again. I’ll be sending you ‘US Government: The Home Game,’ for you to play with your kids. Oh, that’s right, your kids probably can’t read because they go to public school. Thanks for playing.”
Davis X. Machina
You got all the stimulus President Collins and President Nelson said you were going to get. Because $800 billion is a nice round number. Does it have any relation to the actual GDP gap? No. But have you ever seen a rounder number? Especially the ‘8’? Didn’ t think so.
Now the fight is on to see who gets to pull the arbitrary round number for health care out of their ass.
inkadu
@SGEW: The 14th, 19th, and the 24th Amendments are the unconstitutional ones. If you loved America more, you’d know that.
jl
I didn’t know that trolls came to this blog while they were trying to sober up. Is it always like this here the morning after a big holiday?
Will
Maybe if Krugman showed a crumb of political instinct once in a blue moon, he would get more respect. Maybe the same would follow if he stopped writing columns ordering Obama to order Congress to do exactly what Paul Krugman says right now.
DougJ
Which is semi-admitting the stimulus was too small.
Read it again and tell me that he’s not semi-admitting the stim was too small.
Alex Higgins
@SKEW
Just to further remind people, BOB was previously here explaining what a good job the Communists did in keeping Muslims under control in Yugoslavia.
SGEW
Well, now that Al Franken is about to be seated, what’s Rahm’s excuse now, huh? Huh?
inkadu
I feel like I am being gently reprimanded for trading the monkey peanuts for flung feces.
Comrade Kevin
@jrg:
It’s always enjoyable and comforting to have some blog commenter regurgitate that phrase. It makes everything better to know that I’m one of millions of lagging indicators.
Thanks!
linda
biden also just gave israel a great big pass, should it care to attack iran…
Biden Suggests U.S. Not Standing in Israel’s Way on Iran
By BRIAN KNOWLTON
WASHINGTON — Plunging squarely into one of the most sensitive issues in the Middle East, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. suggested on Sunday that the United States would not stand in the way of Israeli military action aimed at the Iranian nuclear program.
The United States, Mr. Biden said in an interview broadcast on ABC’s “This Week,” “cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do.”
“Israel can determine for itself — it’s a sovereign nation — what’s in their interest and what they decide to do relative to Iran and anyone else,” he said, in an interview taped in Baghdad at the end of a visit there.
jl
@inkadu: No, I found the replies to the trolls worthwhile in their own right, and have already saved a few of the links.
I just found it genuinely interesting that the trolls were so out-of-it today. I just speculated that they come to Balloon-juice while trying to come down from whatever they have taken at the parties the day before.
Or maybe Tunch draws them here using his subtle cat sixth-sense to drive Cole mad. If I were Tunch. slowly driving Cole mad would be a lot more fun than smothering him in is sleep.
Or maybe it is something else.
jl
@linda: I am sure that Bidengaffe will be ‘clarified’ and ‘re-clarified’. And Obama will be giving krazytrain Joe the evil eye so damn hard, Biden will molder into some kind of immobilized mummy by the end of the week.
inkadu
DougJ, from the article, there isn’t anything there that indicates Biden thought the stimulus wasn’t big enough. If he thought that, really, he’d go ahead and start pushing for a second stimulus. The key graf is in the beginning:
He’s saying that prior predictions of the IMPACT of the stimulus were off because the economy is worse. He is trying to get people to change the metric of “success” on the stimulus package. At the same time, he’s saying they could budget whatever the hell kinds of trillions they want, it’s still going to take time to get to the economy, AND he’s saying that the impact is going to take time to see.
It looks to me like they are going to push for as much stimulus as they
a) can get through congress and
b) that can be quickly put to use.
Since ‘b’ is an obvious issue here, I don’t know if we can draw a straight line from “the economy is worse than we thought” and “the stimulus package was too small.”
SGEW
@jl: We need new trolls. These guys are boooring (snore). It’s like they’re not even trying anymore: New material, people! Shake it up a bit! Get invested again in your characters!
Weaksauce. But maybe for the better, in the long term, overall, perhaps? DougJ probably disagrees, as he has seen the art form from its highest (lowest?) levels degenerate into to the tepid miasma of lame retorts and half baked sketchiness we see today, and weeps for the masters of the lost age.
jl
Look, people, this is Biden. Biden is not at all precise when he speaks. He is not in the same league as your Obamas or Pelosis, and what have you other types of expert English talkers
Biden operates on a much, much, higher level than Palin, but I think it is true that, as with Palin, trying to figure out exactly what his words mean can be a waste of time.
inkadu
@jl: How can you tell the trolls are out of it? Are there fewer than usual? Or are they usually less dumb? If I were Tunch, I’d be more concerned about the dogs than I would about Cole… Tunch is probably relieved every time they bring him back from their walks uneated.
Joe Biden is becoming my second favorite blogtainment figure after Sarah Palin. A few days ago, I wondered why he had been so quiet. And today I know why. Obama wisely put him in an undisclosed location. Maybe we can all chip in and get Biden a Eurorail pass so he can amuse himself for a few months without embarassing POTUS. I also understand that Japan has a very good rail network, but, unfortunately, it is very fast and on a very small island, so it wouldn’t distract Biden for very long. Now, if we could get Biden east of the Czech republic, we’d be in good shape. Slow trains and lots of territory. I would love to see the film, too, old lady in a babushka with a duck on her lap, staring at this guy turning to her, offering his hand and saying, “Hi, Joe Biden. Have you ever ridden Amtrak?”
Linda – The Israelis are smart enough to know who writes the “Sorry my son was sick yesterday and had to bomb your country” notes. It’s not Joe Biden.
DougJ
I think BOB is very good.
SGEW
@DougJ: Narcissist.
harlana pepper
The Administration did not want to admit how fucked we are for fear of being considered “alarmist.” Had they overestimated, they’d be in the pink now, but who knew.
inkadu
@harlana pepper:
The so-called natural unemployment rate is around 5%. So now the employment rate is 9%? I find it hard to believe than a 4% change in unemployment can have such a big impact, or that we need to spend so much money to lower it. It’s just ridiculous.
I was just at the grocery store, and everybody who worked there had a job. Same at the gas station AND the restaurant I eat lunch at. I also work with a lot of people who have jobs; in fact, I think roughly 100% of the people I work with are employed. So where are all these unemployed people? Obama and the liberals just want us to panic into giving up our rights to Big Mommy.
{created by the BOBLogic®}
Leelee for Obama
This is one hell of a widget! Wherever did you find it?
inkadu
@Leelee for Obama: It’s only available for the TRS-80. Give me your mailing address and I’ll send you a copy of the cassette.
Leelee for Obama
@inkadu: LOL, ink!
My TRS-80 was sold at a yard sale for 4 magic beans, IIRC. I tried to hold out for 5, but it was getting dark! It’s amazing how well the software holds up in this technologically advanced time!
Brick Oven Bill
I have read your kiddie EPA site SGEW. It appears to me to be a load of steaming crap. This is perhaps one example of why SAT scores have had to be averaged downward. Maybe one day people will look for the ‘some scientists’ that put out that information out for the kiddies.
This is probably why the ‘some scientists’ have chosen to remain nameless.
Blogreeder
@Inkadu
Thanks Inkadu. That was it. It was this that I remembered.
You think Krugman used awesome sarcastically?
mclaren
Being right is a sign of insufficient ideological commitment. It disqualifies you from being taken seriously inside the beltway.
inkadu
@Leelee for Obama: Uh, Leelee, this is a little embarrasing… but the BOBLogic program is actually just LaroucheLogic. My stupid sister had copied her “Men at Work” album over the original cassette but I still had the original issue of PASCAL WOW! that I copied it from. That’s how it weathered time so well — print. Sometimes the old ways are best.
I have to admit I started a little after the TRS-80. My first was a Franklin Ace 2000, which was deemed a copyright infringer of the Apple //e a few months after I got it. I can’t even remember what happened to it. But they were fun little computers. I think the only games for it were Adventure and the original Castle Wolfenstein.
inkadu
@Blogreeder: Sarah Palin would call it ironic and detached from the lives of ordinary Americans who are sick of the “politics of personal destruction”
inkadu
@Leelee for Obama: Oops. I meant Apple ][, not Apple //e. God, how could i have made such a stupid mistake.
Leelee for Obama
@inkadu: Ah, this makes sense. LaroucheLogic has forever been the halllmark of anti-government, rugged individualist thinking . I should have recognized it from the training camps from back when Abby Hoffman was teaching us how to take over the Country. Abbs always pointed out the fact the the John Birchers bought the Larouche BS without a probelm, so our Cadre of DFHs should use the methodology.
Good times, indeed!
LD50
@Blogreeder:
Consult a dictionary and you will discover that ‘awesome’ is not merely a synonym for ‘really good’.
drillfork
@Brien Jackson:
Obama doesn’t get a pass for being “against” the Iraq war anymore, not since the VP and secretary of state he selected both voted for the AUMF…
Leelee for Obama
Uhhh, BS! The President sets the agenda and the mission, and VP and Sec. State get to implement same. Sorry, thanks for playing, but you lose!
Blogreeder
@Inkadu
It’s certainly the politics of personal wealth destruction.
LD50
@Blogreeder:
Oh, snap!
Blogreeder
LD50, could you please write a post that you consider Palin’s intellect awesome? Then just explain to everyone that you’re merely using one of the other definitions of awesome. I’m sure everyone will be impressed.
inkadu
@Leelee for Obama: That was a long time ago. “Steal This Blog” kind of long ago.
And John Birchers will swallow any kind of crap, as long as they can feel righteous about it; how can you be an economic libertarian and against immigration? how can you be for individual liberties but against civil rights? how can you be for a smaller government but for a bigger army? the john birch society’s platform is an exercise in structural anthropology.
inkadu
@Blogreeder: You just made your English teacher commit suicide by snorting 3 kilos of chalk dust and beating herself in the head with the erasers.
LD50
@Blogreeder:
Now, BR, you did *know* that ‘awesome’ wasn’t just teen slang for ‘real good’, right?
I mean, don’t be afraid to admit it, I think I speak for all of us that the admission couldn’t possibly lower our opinion of you one bit.
gopher2b
I’m confused? I thought the stimulus hadn’t been deployed yet? Now its too small. I absolutely think we should flush another 1 trillion down the toilet. Fuck it.
Leelee for Obama
@inkadu: Or intellectual and moral gymnastics. I would have thought “1984” was based on their logic, except orwell wrote it first! He should have sued them for plagiarism!
What I love the best is their complete lack of understanding of the Founders’ thinking on standing armies and well-regulated militias. Papers galore could be written just on this alone.
And wouldn’t Abby have loved him the internets?!!!
inkadu
@Leelee for Obama: I used to be an anarchist in high school and briefly flirted with libertarianism. Then I realized that society will create power institutional power — corporations, families, cultural/racial groups, etc. The realistic compromise it to create a power structure where everyone can participate — and that’s spelled government. John Birchers / Libertarians / Randian’s have a very utopian view of society, and, it’s extremely difficult to find a true libertarian.
And I don’t know how old you am; but I was a very happy kid with an Apple ][, so that should give you an idea. From what I know of Abbie, I think he’d be very happy with the internets. I don’t think he’d be happy with America, though… I have given up on effecting change. If I can have fun while I’m doing something for a worthy cause, then I’ll do it. But otherwise, I’m resigned to the macrotrends.
Leelee for Obama
@inkadu: I’m 58, so I really had a TRS-80-it was my kid’s! Abby would be out in the streets screaming bloody murder, like always. Knowing he could not change anything alone, trying to wake the somnabulists before things were over for real. I am a bona fide DFH, and I’m proud as hell of it. I don’t know if I can make the ship go where I want it-but I do know only Government is big enough to take care of the really important stuff. The Utopians should all Go Galt and get the hell out of my way.
Thanks for this thread-I’ve been having fun!
inkadu
@Leelee for Obama: I guess it’s appropriate to finish the thread with Hoffman.
It sounds like Hoffman just kept on doing what he did. Even if he didn’t have large crowds of people with him, he found the pressure point and pushed with all he had. I don’t know what happened under Bush, but the system seems to have been completely warped, where no amount of protests or legal action can get much traction in the press or change anyone’s mind. And, yep, government is the answer. Hallelujah!
Blogreeder
@LD50
There is another word Krugman could have used, you know. Staggering. That would have given the correct nuance according to you. But that’s not the word he used.
LD50
@Blogreeder:
Well, you see, Mr. Krugman is 56, so he’s not exactly likely to use teen slang in discussing the economy.
Perhaps you could write him and volunteer to help him improve his writing so that it better meets your standards.
Leelee for Obama
@inkadu: This last post is pitch-perfect!
@LD50: I’m guessing Krugman’s thesaurus has the correct connotatin for “awesome” and staggering is likely the correct equal weight.
LD50
I know. I’m just trying to help Blogreeder out, since he didn’t seem to understand this.
SGEW
This is called “adolescence.” Pretty much everyone enters it. Some don’t come out.
LD50
@SGEW: The 14-yo son of a friend of mine has just become an ‘existentialist’. He’s the only existentialist I’ve ever met.
Leelee for Obama
@LD50: My bad, LD50, I clicked the wrong post to retort!
Oh, well- I’m an older person you know, so I guess my glasses need an upgrade!
Blogreeder
@LD50
If you read that piece again, the “awesome” line is next to a series of superlatives. As for slang, he does use “Reaganize” at one point in the article. Not to mention “drag”.
LD50
@Blogreeder:
Well, clearly that proves that Krugman meant that he thinks a 70% is just totally bitchin’. We bow before your deductive reasoning powers.
inkadu
@LD50: Maybe we could translate some of the paragraph into the English Blogreeder is expecting to help him with the context:
inkadu
SGEW: Atlas Shrugged, Lord of the Rings, etc. So true.
@LD50: I’m still not really clear on what an existentialist is exactly.
SGEW
@LD50: Um. Personally, I think that “existentialist” comes pretty close as a nominal descriptor for my spiritual belief system, such as it is. And I’m a bit older than 14 (really!).
Steeplejack
@Brick Oven Bill:
A quick Google search indicates that carbon dioxide is 0.03 percent of the atmosphere. So you’re only off by a factor of a hundred. Keep up the good work.
LD50
@SGEW:
Actually, existentialism sounds totally sensible to me, too. But he’s the only person I’ve ever known who went around declaring “I’m an existentialist!”
It could be way worse. He could have discovered Ayn Rand or become a Mormon.
Blogreeder
@LD50
I’m sure he writes exactly what he means. He’s suppose to be a good economist. In that article he’s clearly impressed with Sweden’s kleptocracy. But too bad for them, it didn’t last.
LD50
@inkadu:
Very good indeed, but it could be improved with a few examples of “and I was all like!” or “and he was all like”.
LD50
So in addition to writing better than Krugman, you now can read his mind. Get right out there and start writing those articles on economics, BR!
SGEW
@LD50: All he’s saying is “I’ve read a bunch of books, and now I’m confused about my ultimate place in the infinite universe and deeply suspect that ‘meaning’ and ‘purpose’ hold no objective value!” and can you really blame him?
inkadu
@Steeplejack: This is interesting. Bill’s earlier argument is that:
1. Carbon dioxide is .028% of the gas in the environment.
2. 95% of that is natural, with 5% being man made.
3. Therefore the fuss is about about 5% of .028%. = .0007%
Unfortunately, 5% of .028% is .0014%, not .0007%. I’m not a climate scientist, but I know when not to take someone seriously.
inkadu
@LD50: I’m out of touch with the young people of today. Just as long as they continue to attend school, they can go to their box socials or their sock hops or whatever the hell they are doing these days.
LD50
@inkadu:
I’m told they still say “23 skidoo!” at random moments.
inkadu
@SGEW: Wait! That’s all existentialism means? That’s what I am. I think. I’d assume he still has some moral decency, restrained by genetics and social survival. Ultimately, nothing means anything. But we don’t live in the “ultimately” universe.
SGEW
“Sock hopping” sounds really, really dirty.
inkadu
@LD50: I stopped respecting the youth after that big-haired hyper-active dope fiend Gene Krupa became a big hero. Whatever happened to Stephen Foster and Philip Sousa? They were good enough for me. And you always know where the beat was.
Blogreeder
Mind reading has nothing to do with it.
Krugman:
Clearly, he’s about to compare US to Sweden. He doesn’t seem a fan of Reagan. I don’t speak Swedish but I think “nej” means no.
He does use “crazy” when talking economics. Now if you take these next two sentences together.
Is there any other way to take “extremely generous”? “Remarkably”? “above ground”? The government takes 63% of GDP and is “generous”.
He uses “mere” when describing 34% but “awesome” when describing 63% instead of staggering.
Must have been a poor word choice.
LD50
@inkadu: I think these goddam punk kids these days all need to get haircuts.
LD50
@Blogreeder:
Bravo, Blogreeder. With your incisive linguistic analysis, you’ve outed another Commie. Clearly this means Krugman is wrong about the stimulus, as well.
Seriously, dude, start writing those economics columns. We need you to save us from The One.
Blogreeder
No thank you. Have you every read his article on the Baby sitting club economics? It’s a hoot.
inkadu
@LD50: I also don’t like all these short skinny ties the kids are wearing. If you can’t tuck your tie into your pants, it’s too damn short!
demimondian
@Blogreeder: I am genuinely impressed by your rad reading skillz. I can see that someone taught you several words in the dictionary. I’m a little puzzled, however, by your critical abilities.
If you would, oh most wise loser, please explain away Krugman’s central thesis in the piece in question, which is that 63% marginal GDP taxation does not, in fact, seem to be providing any drag whatsoever on Sweden’s economy, thus reducing the claim that 38% nominal GDP taxation is somehow a devastating drain on ours to something indistinguishable from nonsense.
That’s not to say that you’re engaging in your usual misrepresentation and distortion of the writings of others. You are, of course, but I wasn’t saying it in the above. One would have to read for *meaning* and *intent* to recognize that one should…divine…that from what I wrote.
LD50
@inkadu:
We need another war to thin their ranks out, I say.
demimondian
@LD50: Please, no — my sons are the right age to serve.
inkadu
@LD50: The Hun took care of a good chunk of my generation; and from what I read in the broadsheets, the Mahometans aren’t doing a good job of thinning our herd. Maybe the inscrutable Chinaman is our answer.
LD50
Incidentally, here’s another example of Blogreeder’s basic problem with English words:
What is a Kleptocracy? Well, Wikipedia says:
So according to Blogreeder, Sweden taxing its people at 63% in order to create a social safety net which is very popular with its people is the SAME THING as, say, Zaire’s Mobutu:
(But Blogreeder IS the same person who claimed that Obama quitting his Senate seat when he got elected to POTUS was the same thing as Palin going Galt from the governorship.)
LD50
@demimondian: Don’t interrupt me when I’m channeling Grampa Simpson.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
Global warming theory states that with increasing concentrations of CO2, the earth will become increasingly insulated, and temperatures will accelerate upward. This is the ‘hockey stick’ argument. The data for the last decade does not back this up and the raw data, if anything shows a cooling trend.
You are wrong. See here.
It is rational that CO2 would not be a big contributor to theoretical global warming as we are only talking about 0.0007% of the atmosphere.
Carbon dioxide makes up about .04% of the atmosphere – you’re out by two orders of magnitude.
Further, let us imagine you weigh 100 kilos or so. 0.04% of that would be 40 grams. Would you care to imagine what would happen if we injected 40 grams of CO2 into your bloodstream, or removed your gallbladder or one of the chambers of your heart?
LD50
@inkadu: Good lad. I fought the Hindoos with the Raj in Injah, and it made a man of me, too.
inkadu
@LD50: Zaire is an Objectivist paradise. In fact, that’s what we should call Zaire from now on. Objectivist paradise, Zaire, has a high death rate due to doctors going galt before they start medical school. Etc.
I was channeling Burnsie.
demimondian
@Phoenician in a time of Romans: Another good example is the loss of forty grams of cerebral cortex, or the injection of 40ml of blood into the subdural region of the brain. As a rule, one does not get up and play volleyball after that.
inkadu
@LD50: I never saw combat working for the East India Trading company, but a stiff bout of syphilis from a Hindoo courtesan put the hairs on my chest.
—
Someone passed me a book once about a british soldier who was a total scamp, but it was written in the 19th century style and he travelled through the Empire avoiding court martial… I didn’t have time to read it and I can’t remember the title. Any hints?
My only exposure to this kind of thing is “The Insidious Dr. Fu Manchu,” which was a serial from the 20’s.
SGEW
@inkadu: Flashman.
inkadu
@SGEW: Thanks! Brendon Fraser’s “The Mummy” movies should be re-shot with period english in mind. :)
inkadu
Demonoid comes through again. I love the internets. And I actually have an excuse — its next to impossible to get an English book where I am without paying an arm and a leg. But even State-side I am a cheap bastard.
Blogreeder
What do you know? LD50 can use the internet. You know that’s very bad form to refer to a definition. You’re suppose to use sarcasm and sorn to win arguments on Balloon-juice. But wait. If I were to use the internet on “awesome” what will I get?
I guess I can throw out 3. So Krugman meant either inspiring or awe. What does awe mean?
Krugman being old he must have used the obsolete or archaic meaning of awe. I stand corrected.
LD50
So, BR, to further help you with your English, do you still think Sweden and Zaire are both kleptocracies?
Oh, BTW:
Of course I’m ‘suppose to’ use sarcasm and ‘sorn’, I thought I was…
Phoenician in a time of Romans
But since conservatards always say the tax rates should be lower, I like to ask them, “What would be the right tax rate?” That always shuts them up, because they can’t ever seem to get their mind around the simple fact that taxes are necessary, but they know enough not to say “0%.” They would rather play the game of, “You propose a tax rate. Now ask me if it’s too high, too low, or just right. It’s too high! Ok. Try again. Nope! Still to high! Come on, I am enjoying this debate. Very informative. No! Man! Too high! I am totally kicking your ass in this battle of wits. Try again! Too high AGAIN! Its like you don’t even understand basic economic theory. Stupid liberal. Give me another number. Go on. No, seriously. I am engaging you in debate. Are you afraid to engage in debate? I am an elected official. I represent half of an entire state. Come on. Respect the people! Respect the people! TOO HIGH! TOO HIGH! If this was the Price is Right, you’d be sitting back in your folding chair in the studio audience. Give me another number, just throw one out there. Any number. Ok, Alex, what is I am a tax-and-spend commie liberal? TOO HIGH! You just got served, buddy. You are on the slow bus debate team today. Ok, one last chance, I have to go to a Club for Growth fundraiser in a few minutes. And… survey says… BZZT! Too high, again. I’ll be sending you ‘US Government: The Home Game,’ for you to play with your kids. Oh, that’s right, your kids probably can’t read because they go to public school. Thanks for playing.”
The obvious answer is to go even further on them.
“1%? Too high, you statist pig! 0%? No, we have to go further for economic liberty! If low taxes are good, I want a NEGATIVE tax rate! -10%! -15%! Hell, why not -20%!
The lower the tax rate the better, right? Let’s have the government SHOVEL money at people who have EARNED it! Let’s have millions of dollars flowing out to people who can spend it to bring this economy back! They’re OUR dollars, we own the printing presses – why shouldn’t the American people put that money to use?
So, instead of Obama’s doomed stimulus plan, we should have a negative tax rate plan instead. Totally different things.
Blogreeder
@demimondian
Someone finally understands. Why would Krugman write such an article? Freidmen wouldn’t. Hayak wouldn’t. Krugman thinks we are not taxed enough.
Steeplejack
@inkadu:
Probably talking about the Flashman novels written by George MacDonald Fraser.
demimondian
@Blogreeder: I’m sorry, loser, but that really won’t quite do. First, your spelling is wrong — it’s Friedman, not Freidmen. And, second, despite your truly remarkable telepathetic demeanor — and you are *truly* pathetic at a distance — your reading skills still need some help. Go read (not re-read, read) my original paragraph.
Come back when you’re done. I figure it’ll be one or two in the morning by then.
LD50
And thus BR completely ignores the content of Demimondian’s comment.
Blogreeder, your fumbling attempts to show that Krugman is a soçialist are getting tedious. Why don’t you argue that Krugman’s Nobel prize proves that Al Gore is fat? That’s a good little Republican.
inkadu
@Phoenician in a time of Romans: If you take that negative tax rate too far, though, it starts to look an awful lot like a stimulus package. Oops.
Blogreeder
LD50 are you paying attention? That’s the kind of stuff I wait for. Nitpicking. That’s what makes It so good to post here. Ha.
Blogreeder
I was commenting on his summary of Krugman.
Blogreeder
Sorry. I should have wrote his/her. I don’t know the gender of a Demimondian.
LD50
@Blogreeder:
Careful, BR, we’ll hit you with more sarcasm and sorn.
LD50
@Blogreeder:
And thus BR continues to completely ignore the content of Demimondian’s comment.
SGEW
What do you mean “we,” white man?
inkadu
@Phoenician in a time of Romans: I always feel stupid when I repeat the same point the original commenter made when it’s so obvious I missed it the first time around.
On Friedman: I think we should be grateful he saved us all after that incident at the Black Mesa Research Facility. Show some respect, people.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
@Phoenician in a time of Romans: If you take that negative tax rate too far, though, it starts to look an awful lot like a stimulus package. Oops.
Shut up, statist whore!! THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, AS DIFFERENT AS TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS IN A POD !! !! !!
(Note my use of multiple exclamation marks, as convincing an argument as you’ll ever see in an Internet assertion on taxes)
LD50
“Zaire, Sweden, same thing! Lighten up! Quit nitpicking!”
inkadu
@Phoenician in a time of Romans:
What’s that you say? I won a free IPOD?
Blogreeder
So Demimondian’s is saying I don’t know the difference between meaning and intent. That’s why I asked what was the purpose of such an article? Why would he write such an article? In other words, it’s intent? It’s intent is to show the Swedish system in a positive light despite the 63% drain. Which of course is antithetical to the American way.
inkadu
@Blogreeder: I am not sure I understand what you’re saying BR. Are you using “antithetical” sarcastically?
LD50
Ah. Finally we get to the white hot core of BR’s wingnutty worldview.
What is the ‘American way’, and who gets to decide what it is?
LD50
Blogreeder translated: “I don’t have to comment on the merits of Demimondian’s argument! High taxes are antithetical to the American Way! Because I say so! That’s why!”
Blogreeder
Don’t you listen to Madonna? Or watch Superman?
demimondian
@Blogreeder: Oh, dear. Oh, dear me.
Seriously, child — may I call you child? You certainly reason like a child, and talk as a child, so I hope you are a child. Perhaps someday you will become an adult, and put away childish things. With God, all things are possible.
First, you really need to work on your prose. The possessive pronoun “its” is very different from the contraction “it’s” I realize that you consider the process of communication to be merely nit-picking; I hope you won’t take it amiss if I say that’s one of the things which makes you such a telepathetic loser.
Second, didn’t I suggest that you go read what I’d written? Seriously, you need to do that — I already explained what Prof. Krugman’s intent was, being, as I am, a helpful denizen of the half-world. Go read what I wrote — the words aren’t that big, and I’m sure you can find someone to point out any your don’t understand in your picture dictionary.
LD50
@Blogreeder:
Well, I guess Blogreeder’s run out of bullshit. Didn’t take long.
I think BR is one of those wingnuts who think that if you call your opponent a ‘socialist’, you’ve won the argument. I think that’s why he can’t go any further.
demimondian
@Blogreeder: never mind. this was too cruel, even for me.
SGEW
The American Way Of Life is this, as decided by William S. Burroughs.
Blogreeder
It was a typo. I also use Word for spell check and it gets that wrong constantly and I sometimes use it when I shouldn’t.
You shouldn’t push it though. I’ve got a whole bag of your, you’re and their, they’re to misuse that will rock your night.
I’m sorry I already explained what Krugman’s intent was. He thinks 63% of GDP is awesome. We should stop whining at a mere 34%.
Blogreeder
@SGEW
I’m scared to follow that link. Will it rock my night?
SGEW
@Blogreeder: It will rock your world. Transcript here.
LD50
@Blogreeder: If a phrase isn’t funny the first time, it’s even worse the second time.
demimondian
@Blogreeder: Oh, poor loser. Repeating a big lie, despite what you may have read, does not make it true.
Oh, and those citations of Goebell’s? Yeah, you might want to investigate *their* intent, too.
Blogreeder
If you’ve ever watched Spongebob squarepants or the Family Guy that’s the kind of thing they use. Letterman does that too. If I use it a third time will it be funny?
inkadu
@Blogreeder: What might be funny is if you drank a bottle of Ipecac and filmed the next five minutes for us.
LD50
Looks like Blogreeder isn’t going to gift us with a definition of what qualifies as the ‘American way’. Drag.
Blogreeder
@demimondian
Sorry. You lost me. I don’t think I quoted Goebell. Maybe I’m wrong. It is late. If it’s a joke, please clue me in because I love witty comebacks. I love it better when I get it.
Blogreeder
@Inkadu
That was my favorite Family Guy. “Who’s up for some Chowder?”
@LD50
I think of the American way as having a dream and through hard work acheive that dream. Socialism tends to put a damper on that. With socialism, you have to do someone else’s dream.
LD50
Do you speak in cliches like this in your everyday life?
What if part of your dream is to not die and socialistic national health care is all that will keep you alive? What if part of your dream is not to be homeless and you lose your job?
Oh, sorry, that’s someone else’s dream.
demimondian
@Blogreeder: I’m sure you like witty comebacks, but, honestly, you should be doing your homework. Maybe you did it, though — do you want to explain to me how it is that I refuted your distortions of Krugman’s intent in his column?
Phoenician in a time of Romans
I think of the American way as having a dream and through hard work acheive that dream. Socialism tends to put a damper on that. With socialism, you have to do someone else’s dream.
Gee, if that was the case, then you’d expect intergenerational earnings mobility – the extent towards your parent’s wealth doesn’t determine your own, and the extent to which you succeed by your own efforts – to be highest in the US, and lowest in those hellish socialist countries, right?
Right?
bago
Inkadu is my new favorite. The cream of the crop of the tippy tippy top.
AllenS
I agree that the first stimulus was too small. As I’ve commented on before, I’m one of the 50+ million Social Security recipients who received the extra $250 in Februrary. Why not give each one of us an extra $5000 next month? If you don’t think that the $5000 is enough, please give me a number that you think will help, in a Krugman-styled vision, that will spark a turn around of this economy. Please, I would like everyone, especially the owners of this blog to give me a figure.
AllenS
Correction:
Checking my bank statement, I received the $250 on May 14.
Please send more.
mcc
I didn’t read through this entire comment thread. But:
There’s this weird thing I keep seeing on liberal blogs– and I think this post is an example of that– where writers seem to be operating under the assumption that the political spectrum has the author themselves on the “left” and the Obama administration on the “right” and these are the two points that the national debate is between. Meanwhile in practice the actual national debate is between a “left” point somewhere between the blogger and the Obama administration, and a “right” point somewhere way, way the hell off to the right in la-la land. So we see things like where Joe Biden, acting as a proxy for the Obama administration, moves further to the left and thus toward the blogger on some issue and the blogger declares “victory”.
What sort of victory is this? Was the Obama administration ever arguing the stimulus wasn’t too small? They’ve consistently been unwisely optimistic about how much the stimulus would help, but when the original stimulus was put into effect they made it quite clear that the stimulus was a “first step” and more… um… “stimuluses”?… might be necessary. The size of the stimulus was what it was not because that was the size the white house believed correct, but because that was the size the white house believed politically feasible. The Obama administration moving toward the left isn’t really even much of a “framing” victory, because the move is small enough in absolute terms that outside of the blogosphere, in the larger world, nothing’s changed: Since the larger debate was not between “big stimulus” and “bigger stimulus” but between “stimulus” and “no stimulus”, the Obama administration has simply moved from being pro-stimulus to pro-stimulus.
None of this is meant to imply that there’s no point in criticizing the Obama administration from the left, but if you don’t at least keep in mind while doing so the existence of the ocean of public opinion to the right of that then you’re just not ever going to move the debate, you’re going to wind up saying a lot of things that don’t make sense.