L-Che gets on the birther wagon:
And Tweety shoots down a birther congressman:
Apropos of some comments yesterday, here’s a question: have there been any polls about the percentage of Republicans who are birthers? And who will be the first major Republican presidential candidate to embrace birtherism
Zifnab
How long till we get to see someone make a good “Birther of A Nation” joke?
Robin
@dougj: when will the GatesGate post be live?
SGEW
N.B.
In a follow-up email with Ben Smith, Liz Cheney pulled back on the trial balloon:
Punchy
this much birfah coverage has GOT to have oiled Orly Taitz’s taint by now
Da Bomb
So many wingnuts, so little time!
” He couldn’t be a citizen, because I can’t see Hawaii from my backyard. And if I can’t see the state from my backyard, then it isn’t a part of the real America, filled with real ‘Merkin patriots. Also”
/ Winky McPalin
rob!
And who will be the first major Republican presidential candidate to embrace birtherism
Palin, Palin, Palin.
Red Beans
These”birfers” are the most cogent argument in favor OF abortion ,yet!
The Grand Panjandrum
I am going to blog whore a bit because it is related to this nutty shit of the new Prez not wanting to defend America. Go look at my post about this mornings tweets from Governor Palin.
Hint: It has to do with missiles and North Korea.
Look these guys may not appear serious on the surface but as you, and others, have pointed out this just can’t end well when the nuttiest folks are given tacit approval by prominent members of a major political party. It is the form of validation, however oblique, they can take and run with.
These birthers don’t really give a shit about his birth certificate. They just don’t want a Black man as President. They want him in his place and they don’t see it as the CINC and leader of the Western World. It’s more than there sick, weak minds can handle. They are fucking racists and the GOP is just egging them on.
Zifnab
@rob!: You’re selling Eric Cantor short?
kay
“I don’t have any question about Barack Obama’s right to be President of the United States.”
The arrogance is just amazing. Every day I think it will be less offensive, and every day neoconservatives kick it up a notch.
I had a lot of questions about Dick Cheney’s “right” to be President of the United States, because he wasn’t elected to that position. Anyone who thought neoconservatives were going to learn some measure of humility or honesty as a result of the absolute disasters their policies visited on this country was naive.
Bill H
I just do not get what it is that qualifies Liz Cheney as a “pundit” to sit on national television and spout her bullshit. What offices has she held? What campaigns has she run? Or advised? What are her accomplishments? Other than having sprouted from the loins of the biggest asshole in the history of US Government, what is her cv?
DougJ
How long till we get to see someone make a good “Birther of A Nation” joke?
I did use that as a post title. But I think it’s too big a concept to be restricted to a format like that.
A Mom Anon
This is fucking depressing. Jesus.
The bottom line on this crap is OMGhe’sblackityblackblackblackitysaveusomgomghidethewimmins
DougJ
when will the GatesGate post be live?
Once I figure out how to make the two voices sound more different.
Ash
@Bill H: She worked in the State Department, or something like that.
Mostly she’s just in training to be a Sith Lord.
YellowJournalism
You know what she really wants to say is:
“People are increasingly uncomfortable with a black President.”
pharniel
my dad has gone full on birfer.
it’s sad.
speaking of, the wife and I are ploughing through Babylon 5 and we found the template for ann coultier int he political officer that shows up for a whole 1 episode.
She wanted to punch the monitor everytime she spoke, and I said it was like watching fox news.
prescient little bastard JMS was. either that or it just keeps happening in cycles in our culture.
Max
I love that the wingers and birthers and PUMA’s keep asking why Obama won’t release his “real birth certificate” and end all speculation. They are too stupid to understand how they are being fu$ked with. I truly believe that Obama and his team live for this $hit.
Red State had a 200+ comment thread about this. Reasonable republicans are horrified, but they are outnumbered in their party. RedState also tried to make the point that unlike the “Left” embracing the “Truthers”, the republicans are too smart for that.
Yeah, um… my recollection is that the Truthers are primarily Ron Paul supporters.
Also.
gnomedad
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what “credentials”, if any, a candidate for President has to present, and to whom? I know what the Constitution says, but I have no idea how its requirements are verified in practice. “Everyone knows” Ahnold wasn’t born here, but if he tried to run, exactly who would tell him he can’t?
El Cid
I watched this clip and came to the conclusion that Liz Cheney now ranks among the top of ‘right wing freaktard pundits I detest’, so, good for her.
JGabriel
DougJ @ Top:
Palin. Though she’ll express it as continuing doubts, no matter what the evidence:
“I just don’t think that we know enough about where it is that he was born, Charlie, (wink) and that we need that bill about birth certificates to become a law so that we can progress through that question and get an answer to it and, you know, just get that settled or get him out of there if he’s not legitimate or eligible or whatever because I know a lot of real Americans are also concerned that we follow that great Constitution of ours.”
(For the first few months that Palin was on the national scene, I couldn’t wrap my head around her fractured grammar well enough to do any kind of decent parody – the fact that I can now do so is scary and probably indicates some sort of brain damage has occurred through overexposure to her.)
.
Calouste
@rob!:
“And who will be the first major Republican presidential candidate to embrace birtherism
Palin, Palin, Palin.”
Major? Republican?
steve s
I can’t find a poll with a Dem/Rep breakdown, but birthers show up at GOP rallies, Rush Limbaugh is a birther, and several GOP members of congress have signed onto that birther bill, so, qualitatively, it looks like a pretty solidly GOP activity.
Ash
@gnomedad: I THINK the way it goes is that you don’t actually have to present credentials to anyone. It’s just assumed you’d meet them. As for Arnold, I think we’ve talked about it around here before, and someone would have to challenge it in court?
Terri
It’s a wonder these people can breathe on their own, they’re so fucking stupid.
steve s
WingNutDaily has a new Birther Superstore.
http://shop.wnd.com/store/subdept.asp?SUBDEPARTMENT_ID=251
Paul MacDonald
Palin will be the first and she will make a mint as she mainstreams this nonsense. She actually thinks it’s true. There won’t be pandering or misdirection (as seen in the videos), but unequivocated acceptance of the notion that Obama is not a naturally born American citizen. That gives the green light to the crazies to “march”.
steve s
I haven’t seen this before. Do you have any verification of this?
The Moar You Know
I love it. I’m watching the greatest circular firing squad of all time.
@steve s: No disrespect, but were you asleep during the entire 2008 campaign?
JGabriel
Zifnab:
It’s all about the intolerance.
.
Wag
Palin Palin Palin=Major Major Major
Incompetence personifed in both cases. I should go back and re-read catch 22. I’m sure the answers to all of our problems with the Repub idiots are to be found in its pages. Classic.
Elizabelle
LA Times columnist James Rainey takes on Lou Dobbs for giving birthers a platform.
‘Lou Dobbs and the canard over President Obama’s birth”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/la-et-onthemedia22-2009jul22,0,682009,full.column
“Lou Dobbs had David from Freeport, N.Y., on the line, the caller musing darkly about President Obama “rushing all these programs through by whatever means,” knowing he will soon be exposed as a fake, a fraud, a . . . Kenyan.
At that point, a scrupulous radio host had three options: (A) hit the kill button (B) laugh and hit the kill button or (C ) offer some push-back against the fantastical notion that Barack Obama was born on foreign soil and thus serves — illegally — as the Oval Office’s first resident alien.
Instead, Dobbs chose the maximum complicity-minimum integrity route, or (D): “Certainly your view can’t be discounted,” the host said.
…… Brooks Jackson, director of Annenberg Political Fact Check (FactCheck.Org) and a reporter with 34 years in the business, has seen one howler after another knocked down, only for another to sprout in its place.
“CNN should be ashamed of itself for putting some of that stuff on the air,” said Jackson, who worked at the cable outlet for more than 20 years.
ironranger
@Terri:
rotfl. Couldn’t have said it better.
Paul MacDonald
SteveS:
Just speculation on my part. She had no problem, at all, with pushing “palling around with terrorists” and all number of smears. She still thinks that crap is true.
She inspires the base because she is the base.
ironranger
Who would be cheerleading for Daddy Dick if he didn’t have a clone daughter to do it for him? Lynne Cheney? I can’t think of any R who would be eager to do it.
racrecir
@Terri:
Flashback to October 05, 2004:
PHILLIPS: So, do Americans agree with Kerry’s statement during his debate that Osama bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks and not Saddam Hussein?
NEWPORT: Well, that’s the key issue. You know, all these comments by Donald Rumsfeld, secretary of defense, have come into the fore even yesterday and today. It’s very political.
This is fascinating. Look carefully. If you’re a Republican, 62 percent say, yes, Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the 9/11 attacks.
steve s
@The Moar You Know: Maybe you have a clear memory of who made which claim last year, but I don’t. Did Palin express Birther stuff last year?
Paul L.
Tweety proves again that he is a Democratic flack who will lie for the cause by saying Obama released his Birth Certificate and point to the Certification of Live Birth.
Here is a post at Redstate that DougJ may agree with.
The Birther’s case is useless because even if they are proven to be correct, Congress and Courts will do nothing.
BTW, which of you progressives still thinks the CBS Bush TANG memo are authentic. Other Steve.
Brick Oven Bill
The birth certificate is very important. As the Republic goes broke, we will have to go in one of two directions. Socrates says we will become a tyranny. The other option is a return to Constitutional rule. As the President is apparently not Constitutionally seated, everything done under his watch may be null and void.
He may end up being deported as an illegal immigrant.
The recovery from this situation may require some sort of martial law. As the military pledges their loyalty to the Constitution, and not to men, they will likely have a big say in putting our Country back on a sustainable, Constitutional, track.
This is why President Obama may be divine. In a similar event, both President Adams and President Jefferson died within hours of each other, not in communication, 50 years to the day after the Declaration of Independence was signed.
Joshua Norton
The birthers are the bitterz.
steve s
Like you, it wouldn’t surprise me if she jumped on that bandwagon, golly shucks heck.
katie5
Will this be the Republicans’ Waterloo? No, because the MSM, outside of the margins like Tweety, will never say just how insane this conspiracy theory is. It might not even be enough for the MSM to denounce these guys because the news is so bifurcated. Republican voters (not just the nutty base) all watch Fox News anyway. Consequently, the Republican officials get a pass. And in a way that Democrats and Libertarians never will (that’s asymmetrical media warfare for you).
My guilty pleasure is listening to Coast to Coast. The amount of borderline insanity underlying a lot of everyday thinking cannot be overestimated (2012, anyone?).
Joshua Norton
Funny that the birther bitterz don’t get it that a birth certificate brou-ha-ha would have created more problems for Walnuts than it would have for Barry.
SGEW
When did PaulL and B.O.B. start sharing talking points?
I almost expect myiq=dirt to pop up and start quoting WorldNetDaily.
JGabriel
@Paul MacDonald:
Second article unnecessary.
.
over_educated
LOL Paul L. you pathetic hack. If you have thrown your lot in with the birthers you are an even sadder sack then when you came here last fall with your hillary nonsense.
BethanyAnne
Where were all of these concerns for constitutionality during the Bush presidency? During the evisceration of the 4th amendment? Did these thugs raise Cheney’s reign as a problem?
Dusty
I’m not an expert, but there does seem to be an actual issue here, where there’s some dispute about what “natural-born citizen” actually means when it comes to being qualified for the presidency as opposed to just regular-old citizenship, particularly in an age where international travel and employment is not uncommon. And there does seem to be an issue with nobody really having clear standing to challenge someone’s qualifications. Maybe the Electoral College? I don’t know.
With Arnold, he’s just clearly not qualified. He doesn’t meet the letter of the standard or the spirit. It wouldn’t happen, so there’d be no need for someone to challenge his candidacy. No one would waste their time or money on such a candidate, not unless there’s some legislation sorting this all out first. In which case, we’d have an answer.
Da Bomb
@Paul L.: Rich Lowry is that you? Are you still seeing starbursts from your teevee?
Woody
The vast, overwhelming majority of birthers are white folks who use the issue as a surrogate to camouflage their racial resentment. They want to shout “NI**ER, NI**ER, NI**ER!!!” without having to face the opprobrium for their bigotry…
Grumpy Code Monkey
@Paul L.:
As far as the law is concerned, the COLB is his birth certificate.
Woody
The issue of citizenship is settled once and for all once Obama’s parentage was established. His mother was an American, so HE is an American.
If either parent is a US citizen, any child is automatically a citizen, no matter where the child is born.
Legalize
Seems to me this birther crap plays right into Obama’s hands. He beat the PUMA nonsense; and he beat the winger / media nonsense. There’s no reason to believe that he won’t use this latest round to his advantage with respect to, say … healthcare: Link birther nuts to nuts like Jim Demint et al. Make the Blue Dogs and sane GOPers cast their lots with the loonies or with sane Americans who want healthcare reform. He can do this whenever he wants – IF he wants to.
Egilsson
@Brick Oven Bill:
You are advocating a military coup because you lost an election.
What’s the word for that …. traitor?
How comical it is you reference the Constitution while exhibiting no respect at all for its terms and requirements.
Jay B.
Tweety proves again that he is a Democratic flack who will lie for the cause by saying Obama released his Birth Certificate and point to the Certification of Live Birth.
Yeah! Only an idiot would say that a birth certificate and a Certification of Live Birth are somehow similar. They have totally different names and barely say the same thing at all.
Thunderbird
You are advocating a military coup because you lost an election.
What’s the word for that?
Why, I do believe that’s called treason! Punishable by death, IIRC.
Dusty
Sure, which is why BOB’s notion of Obama being deported as an illegal immigrant is silly.
But did the Founding Fathers intend there to be a higher citizenship standard for American Presidents than American citizens? If you were born to an American mother and French father and lived 35 years in Paris and then lived to St. Louis for 15 and ran for president, would that be all right? Or would you always have divided loyalties between America and France? I mean, it would never happen, but, it’s a question.
Roger Moore
@SGEW:
None of the birthers have any questions about Obama’s right to be President. They’re 100% sure that he’s a furriner and has absolutely no right to be president.
BDeevDad
Platform, hell, he believes it. Then again, he believes anyone of Mexican descent is dealing drugs and helping illegals cross the border.
schrodinger's cat
Slighty OT question. Why is Chris Matthews tweety?
Mike
It wasn’t so long ago that Republicans were trying to pass an amendment to achieve the exact opposite:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Opportunity_to_Govern_Amendment
I wonder if any of Posey’s co-sponsors were around at the time, and what their views were on Hatch’s bill?
Napoleon
@Dusty:
Huh? There is no issue – zero – nada – none
Mike
Slighty OT question. Why is Chris Matthews tweety?
according to Urban dictionary:
1. Tweety
Nickname for Chris Matthews, host of ‘Hardball.’ His staff nicknamed him Tweety Bird because of the shade of yellow he dyes his hair. First divulged at mediawhoresonline.com
BethanyAnne
@schrodinger’s cat: because his blonde head looks like tweety bird, I think
Woody
No.
The qualifications are expressed in the relevant section of the Constitution. it’s pretty straight-forward.
lotus
Awright, that did it. BOB is a smoove DougJ spoof — it’s the only explanation.
JGabriel
Egilsson:
Actually, it’s rebellion.
Traitor or treason are used when someone betrays there own country through aid to foriegn enemies. When the enemies are domestic, then rebellion or insurrection are technically the proper words. It’s still punishable by death, in some circumstances, if I remember correctly.
.
Brick Oven Bill
The Founders were very deliberate in that leadership was to pledge loyalty to a governing document (3-Age concept) instead of a man (Neolithic concept) as laid out in Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 8.
The Article II, Section 1, paragraph 5 provision for the President to be a natural born Citizen was likely put in place to ensure the President is loyal to the place of his birth. It makes sense when you think about it.
Providing fraudulent documents to attain the office of the President surely brings us to Article II, Section 4.
These were very smart men.
Dusty
@ Napoleon
Look, I don’t think there’s an issue with Obama, because Obama was born in Hawaii.
I did have the impression there was some legitimate, non-birther dispute about exactly what kind of citizenship standard presidents are expected to meet and who would have standing to either challenge that or verify it. Maybe I’m wrong, in which case, my bad.
Napoleon
@Mike:
I always assume the shape of his head had something to do with it as well.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@Brick Oven Bill:
Brick Oven Bigot/Brick Oven Birther
winguts to iraq
I got in a stupid fight with someone yesterday who kept screaming that Executive Order 13489 was Obama trying to cover-up access to his “real” birth certificate.
So I go read EO13489, and lo and behold, the Order only applies to documents defined in the “Presidential Records Act”.
I proceeded to post at least 3 comments trying to explain that a Birth Certificate from the state of Hawai’i is not under the jurisdiction of the Presidential Records Act.
However, to comprehend such a statement required a level of cognitive reasoning this birther didn’t have.
It’s basically arguing with someone who screams “THE SUN GOES ‘ROUND THE EARTH! OMGWTFBBQ!”
The Grand Panjandrum
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: He’s probably already rented his Ryder van.
Napoleon
“I did have the impression there was some legitimate, non-birther dispute about exactly what kind of citizenship standard presidents are expected to meet and who would have standing to either challenge that or verify it. ”
That may be, but because he not only had an American parent but was actually born in a state that was then a state in the US (unlike, say Goldwater Obama missed being born in a territory by a few months) no matter what your standard is Obama meets it. In order not to they have to ignore indisputable fact.
Brachiator
@The Grand Panjandrum:
It’s not just birthers and wingnuts. You can hear Liz Cheney pulling herself back, after leading with the “not comfortable” remark.
Larry King isn’t smart enough or confrontational enough to just get down with it: “Cheney, what you are saying is that you don’t feel comfortable with a black man being president. Just admit it and let’s move on.”
It’s too bad that so many Republicans are surface-religious. They really need therapy for their racial hysteria, and religious counselling wouldn’t be strong enough.
The congressman in the Tweety clip is a total tool. But he clearly enjoys playing with fire in using the birther crap to benefit the GOP.
flukebucket
She inspires the base because she is the base.
We have a winner. Sarah Palin represents the 21st century GOP more closely than any of their other candidates.
Think for a moment of the GOP base and then ask yourself if you would want to try and build anything at all on it.
Can you imagine trying to reason with a person holding a baggie with a birth certificate in it and screaming “we want our country back!” and then leading the rest of the loons in the pledge of allegiance?
Knowing that your job depended on those people putting an X by your name on the ballot in the next election.
Fuck.
Comrade Kevin
I bet Paul L.’s birth certificate says “Certificate of Live Birth” on it.
schrodinger's cat
Not only was Obama not born in the US, he was not born on the earth at all. He is actually a Vulcan, which explains his ears and preternatural calm.
winguts to iraq
is this comment in moderation as well?
Mrs. Peel
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Bitter Old Birther.
joe from Lowell
I think Liz Cheney is right, in her own way.
The people who believe this idiotic conspiracy theory do so because they are uncomfortable with Obama on a visceral level. He just doesn’t seem American to them, so the idea that he’s not really a citizen makes sense on an emotional level. They checked their guts when they heard about this, and their guts said “Yep.”
Ultimately, though, this is bigger than Barack Obama. He’s just the embodiment of the change that’s been happening in the country. That woman in the Mike Castle video shrieking “I want my country back!” is onto something. These people grew up surrounded by Real Americans, and now they look around at the mall, and half the faces are non-white. Gay people, walking around openly. Reaganite politics can’t even get a genuine war hero elected over a black guy who…uh…I don’t…I’ve read…uh…He’s an Arab.
The Salem witch trials took place during a period of great social change, too, as New England went from being a collection of small, theocratic communities to a cosmopolitan commercial center dominated by what passed for a big city.
JGabriel
Dusty:
Yes, in that the Founding Fathers required the President to be someone born a US citizen rather than someone who acquired his citizenship through immigration.
Obviously, someone born of an American citizen outside of the country would NOT be required to apply for citizenship, and to that extent would be considered a “naturally-born” citizen, even though not geographically born in the US – that’s why they used the phrase “naturally-born”.
P.S. There are some additional requirements for the Presidency, something like at least 15 years residence in the US (I’m too lazy to look it up right now).
.
Beeb
IIRC, the question of who is “natural born” arose when Mittens’ daddy was making a run at the 1968 Republican nomination. George W. Romney was born to American parents in Mexico. I look forward to someone asking Mittens about the issue, since so far, at least, no one has questioned whether Obama is really his mother’s son.
Dusty
@ Napoleon
I was never disputing that. The birther movement is a load of crap.
Barry
But wait, I gave a copy to the Annenberg Foundation and they verified it. Leave me alone. You are picking on me because I don’t look like the other Presidents.
Stop it, I need to go practice baseball.
handy
@Brick Oven Bill:
More plz!
That is awesome.
joe from Lowell
Oh, I should have added, all of this happened during the period that these people fervently believed was going to be the faith-based, right-wing Permanent Republican Majority.
“I want my country back” indeed. Well, sorry, you can’t have it.
The Grand Panjandrum
@schrodinger’s cat: And here I shall segue into something OT but very cool: Star Wars: The Old Republic Voice Over Trailer.
Paul L.
@Woody:
Jeanane? Becuase any criticism of Obama is racist.
Garofalo: Tea Party Goers Are Racists Who Hate Black President
over_educated What hillary nonsense? Faux support to prolong the Democratic Primary?
Roger Moore
@Dusty:
IANAL, but the obvious reading is that a “natural born citizen” means a birthright citizen as opposed to a naturalized citizen. I’m pretty sure that’s what the Supreme Court would rule in a case like this, though my cynical side suggests that the current court would be more likely to rule that way if the person in question were a lily white Republican.
Big E
The birther thing ties into the recent attempt to get a new gun law passed that allows concealed weapons in 50 states. Republicans & Conservative Christians want a revolution by the fringe, plain and simple.. they won’t be happy until they get it….. they will fuel the fire of rage until there is a major incident and then Blame the Dems and Obama
The Moar You Know
@Dusty: The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that the bar to be a full citizen vested with voting rights was a lot higher in those days than it is today (no women, non-whites, or renters need apply); but in theory a white national of a foreign nation could become a citizen but not run for the Presidency.
You don’t include where the hypothetical squirt was born, as it might make a difference as to whether the child could claim French citizenship as well, but the law here is this – if you are born to an American citizen that has not renounced their citizenship, you are an American citizen no matter where you were born.
JGabriel
@schrodinger’s cat:
Eh, because of an alleged resemblance to Tweetybird – big head, shock of blonde hair, etc.
.
BongCrosby
@Comrade Kevin:
I’m thinking it says “Certificate of Found Under a Rock.”
Napoleon
@JGabriel:
JG said: “in that Founding Fathers required the President to be someone born in the US rather than someone who acquired his citizenship through immigration.’
That is wrong. The constitution says “natural born citizen”. It says nothing about being born in this country and IMO all it means is that you come about your citizenship naturally and not by applying for citizenship. Being born of an American parent qualifies. But some people disagree or at least think the term that is used in the constitution is ambiguous. But in any event the Constitution simply does not say “must be born in the country”.
Brick Oven Bill
I’m trying handy. A super-secret alias has been used to post a comment above that is currently in moderation.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
@Paul L.:
So how do you propose to argue with that, fuckstain? That’s the whole, exact truth right there, and I would like to see you twist yourself into some kind of pretzel trying to talk your way out of it.
By the way, what does it say on your “birth certificate”, asshole? I’ll bet you fifty skillion kajillion megabucks it says “Certificate of Live Birth.” Anybody else want some of my action?
Marmot
@joe from Lowell: I think you’re exactly right. The explanation that birthers are just racists is incomplete and a little lazy. They’re bewildered by the changing world around them, and the all these people calling themselves Americans just look too alien to be real to them.
Hell, a Black guy who speaks in complex, grammatically correct sentences, traveled the world, was born in Hawaii and worked as a community organizer in Chicago! Who’da thunk it?
Malron
Sarah Palin less than 24 hours after her resignation is official.
The Moar You Know
@Paul L.: Incoherent even for you.
We know where you stand on black people. Shall I dig up some of your past ravings here?
BDeevDad
@JGabriel:
This is false since 8 of the first 9 Presidents were born British subjects, not US citizens and before the USA even existed.
Seanly
@pharniel:
A lot of B5’s cynical take on Earth government was based on the McCarthy hearings and such. JMS had peppered some episodes with characters named after obscure actors, writers and journalists destroyed by McCarthy’s witchhunt. He did this with a few other events also, but the McCarthy hearings were a frequent source.
So, to answer your question, I think JMS showed that this is all just part of a vicious cycle of stupid upon which the world rides. Unfortunately, people get to suffer the consequences of other more stupid people.
Brick Oven Bill
Napoleon and Dusty, you are full of crap:
Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child’s birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.
She was 18 and therefore could not have resided in the US for 5 years after her 14th birthday. Its Hawaii or bust.
Punchy
I feel bad for Orly Taitz’s dental patients. Her next available open date for a cleaning and flouride must be sometime in December 2015. By then, she’ll be filling a LOT of cavities and root canals…
Dusty
@ BOB
Since I believe Obama was born in Hawaii, how exactly am I full of crap? You’re quoting requirements for a child born abroad.
Comrade Kevin
@Brick Oven Bill: Since Obama was born in Hawaii, all of the rest of that is completely irrelevant.
PK
I think being a birther is more polite and socially acceptable than putting on a white hood and saying they don’t want a n****r as president.
latts
@joe from Lowell:
He just doesn’t seem American to them
This is pretty much the core problem with most of the right– to them, being ‘American’ is basically being a high-intensity white adolescent male, defined by a lot of aggression & gender anxiety coupled with the privilege and assumptions of merit that culture has traditionally enabled. People who are temperate, skeptical, disciplined, empathetic (!), culturally aware, and generally take a broad view of everything instead of coasting on visceral, emotional reactions are alien to them.
freelancer
I know I just went off on a rant about Scarborough,
https://balloon-juice.com/?p=24384#comment-1306665
but this morning he had a good point after re-showing the town hall video and specifically addressing the rhetoric of the birther woman doing the full stop wingnut bug-eyed seizure. The woman was stating that her father or grandfather was part of “the greatest generation” and fought in the Pacific during WWII. Nevermind that Obama’s grandfather served in Europe during the War, and his great-uncle stormed Omaha Beach on D-Day.
After the Tea Parties, when Garofalo was on Countdown and she attributed ALL of the protests to racism, I was a bit skeptical of that claim.
“I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!”
This whinging tantrum and that statement in particular was so front-loaded with racial hatred that I’m no longer skeptical about the entirety of his conservative opposition as being completely based in ignorant in-group/out-group tribalism.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@Brick Oven Bill:
You’re a moran.
Sly
For those interested, the State Department has jurisdiction over the qualifications for U.S. citizenship and, incidentally, the process by which a Presidential candidate (or anyone else) “proves” they are a U.S. citizen is the same process through which they get a passport. From the requirements:
“A birth certificate must include your full name,
the full name of your parent(s), date and place of birth, sex, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such
records.”
The one kept by the State of Hawaii has met all of these criteria. All this “BUT ITS NOT A LONG-FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE GRRAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!” is nonsense.
The Moar You Know
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge: Paul’s not a fuckstain, but rather a skidmark. He gets partial credit for objecting to Ms. Garafolo’s statement, because:
“It’s not about bashing Democrats”
It surely is.
“it’s not about taxes”
It’s about paying taxes. People like Paul have no problem loading up on guvmint money.
“they have no idea what the Boston tea party was about”
It’s about driving the Negroes back to Africa, right? No? Oh shit.
The rest, starting with “they don’t know their history at all”, is dead-on accurate. So I’m giving Paul 50%. Which is still an “F”.
Piper
See the thing is, BOB, Obama wasn’t born abroad.
Are the CIA, FBI, the Republican Governor of Hawaii, Hillary Clinton and John McCain all in on the Birther hoax?
JohnR
I just realized, using my special GOP logic, that the Constitution explicitly outlaws anyone from being President – read it again (critical portion capitalized):
“No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, AT THE TIME of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President..”
Since no-one alive was a citizen (natural-born or otherwise) at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, that clearly means that there can be no President! The last couple hundred years have been a gigantic fraud (other than the last 2 terms, where the VP ran the country), and I can’t believe that BOB or some other insightful individual hasn’t been getting on TV to point this out.
JGabriel
Napoleon:
Yes, I was still editing when you quoted that. If you go back, you’ll see that, before the clock ran out, I had changed it to:
In any event, I further clarified that the phrase “natural born” included those born of an American parent outside of the country and was only intended to exclude those who had to apply for citizenship – so I don’t see what you’re argument with me is.
.
The Moar You Know
@Brick Oven Bill: Ahhh, BOB. I don’t normally expect such epic fail from you.
You need to edit out the relevant parts before you cut-and-paste. You’re getting very lazy. I am disappointed.
Brick Oven Bill
You are full of crap because you say the birther movement is full of crap Dusty. As I am not apparently allowed to post under the name ‘Barry’, it should be noted that the President was willing to send his documentation to a third party for verification. This is to his credit.
Unfortunately, he sent it to Bill Ayers’ Annenberg Group for verification. This is not a sophisticated operation. This is Chicago-level politics. What a crappy fake certificate of live birth too. This Axelrod guy is not good.
The Obama Administration should hire Dick Morris.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
BoB is still quoting the same crap. He WILL NOT admit that these residency requirements are for people who have become naturalized citizens to be able to pass along their acquired citizenship to their children if they are born outside the country and the other parent is not a US citizen. Either he’s too stupid to understand the distinction or he’s a pathological liar. My guess is both.
Ned R.
@Brick Oven Bill: Wait, hold on, you’re not a joke?
Wag
I think we should ask Scalia and Thomas (strict constructionalists, both) to clarify this issue. They have a direct line to the pulse of the Founding Fathers, and can give us a definitive answer as to whether or not Obama is natural or not…
Hey, they settled the 2000 election to everyone’s satisfaction, didn’t they?
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@Ned R.:
Of course he’s not a joke. He’s a birther bigot.
steve s
I live in the Deep South in North Florida. County I’m in went 66-33 for McCain, if that gives you any indication. Part of the process of my intellectual maturing was the slow realization, after thousands of hours of argument, that it was completely pointless, and I should spend my time doing anything more productive than arguing with these saps.
Ed Drone
What always gets me is the varying laws on citizenship — so that a 1952 – 1986 birth is not proof of citizenship, but the same after then would be. This sounds capricious and, possibly, unconstitutional. Especially when it’s the presidency on the line. If Obama hadn’t been born in Hawaii (which he was), then the difference in years in-country past the age of 14 is discriminatory from one era to another.
I can’t but recall the Florida (non)recount in 2000, when a piddling little law about when things had to be finished seemed to make actual conclusion of the election impossible, which then allowed the Republican majority on the SCOTUS to install an unelected dolt, to our great suffering and dismay. In that case, why did that simple law rule, and the Constitutional principle — properly completed elections should determine the President of the United States — get short shrift?
I see a similar problem here — the principle is obvious, but an often-changed law intervenes. Why should that upside-downness even be countenanced?
Good thing he has a birth certificate (and a birth announcement in a local paper, too).
Ed
Comrade Kevin
@Ned R.: Oh, he’s a joke all right. Whether or not he’s an intentional joke is up in the air.
Sly
Bill Ayers runs the Annenberg Foundation?
Someone better tell that to McCain-endorsing Leonore Annenberg.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Brick Oven Birther, how long have you been a bigot?
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
@The Moar You Know:
Your analysis is correct–in human minds. but we’re not dealing with human minds.
“It’s not about bashing Democrats.” Ni**ers, Democrats, same thing.
“It’s not about taxes.” Taxes are money stolen out of their pocket and handed directly to black Welfare Queens™ so they can drive around in Cadillacs and able-bodied young bucks buying T-bone steaks with food stamps.
It’s all connected.
Dusty
Didn’t WorldNet Daily verify it before jumping on the birther bandwagon themselves? And it’s not just Factcheck.org that’s verified it. Hawaii’s Health Department Director and Registrar of Vital Statistics have confirmed it.
Of course, Orly Taitz admitted to Lou Dobbs that, even if Obama releases the original certificate from 1961, it wouldn’t matter:
Thunderbird
Bill Ayers runs the Annenberg Foundation?
Someone better tell that to McCain-endorsing Leonore Annenberg.
And poor Nixon-appointed Walter Annenberg must be spinning in his grave, too!
Ash Can
Jeezus H, BOB, are you trying to hit every dishonest/drooling-idiot RW talking point ever uttered in this one thread? You’re outdoing yourself.
over_educated
@Paul L.: Well, since you just admittted that you were rat-f**(%($ your Hillary support, why the heck should we take anything you say seriously?
schrodinger's cat
I wonder what will happen to the birthers, if Bobby Jindal ends up getting the GOP nomination for 2012.
JGabriel
JohnR:
Actually, the United States existed as an entity from the Declaration of Independence in 1776. The Constitution was the second attempt to form a government, the first being the Articles of Confederation in 1777.
So there were US citizens as defined under the Articles already.
.
Brick Oven Bill
The State Department rules, posted above, are very clear, The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Reading Comprehension.
Thunderbird
BOB, the rules you posted are for a child born abroad, which Obama clearly was not. You FAIL.
ironranger
bob is a provocateur. He reminds of those I have known, anyway. The fun is in the game. Throw out an argument whether you believe in it or not to get people going. The longer you keep people going, the more fun it is. I could be wrong. It’s easier to tell if you can watch a provocateur’s face & eyes while he/she is winding people up but bob does seem to enjoy himself immensely here.
JGabriel
@Brick Oven Bill:
Oy vey. You know where else he sent it, BOB?
The State Department.
You see, Obama travelled with his Mom quite a bit as a child, even spending some time in foreign countries like Indonesia. Which means: Obama. Had. A. Passport.
If Obama’s birth certificate was good enough to get a US passport from the State Department, it’s good enough for him to be president. If it hadn’t been, he would been required to get a visa and apply for citizenship before being given a passport.
.
PurpleGirl
I think he’s nicknamed Tweety not just because of the yellow color he dyes his hair but he looks a little like the Looney Tunes cartoon character Tweety Bird, especially the shape of his head.
http://www.looney-tunes.cartoonspot.net/wallpaper-images/ico-tweety-3.jpg
chopper
@joe from Lowell:
indeed. a black guy with a arabic/swahili name, to be precise.
we all said before, the more the right gets shut out and thinned out the crazier they’re going to get. it’s the whole physics behind the wingnut event horizon.
or to make a different physics metaphor, in a way it’s a lot like a bose-einstein condensate of stupid. you use excitation means to brush away the more intelligent ones (who can still take a step back and go ‘jesus titty-fucking christ this is too crazy even for me’) until all that’s left is a group of particles so pure and so cold it turns into a single, unitary mass where the physics completely changes.
joe from Lowell
Barack Obama most certainly did not send his birth certificate to the Chicago Annenberg Challenge for verification.
They sent it to factcheck.org.
Why would you send your birth certificate to a school reform charitable board for verification?
A Mom Anon
A few years ago,my husband,my son and myself needed passports to go on a vacation to Jamaica. We had to have birth certificates to get the passports. My husband is from Maryland,I’m from Ohio and my son was born here in Georgia. ALL of our Birth Certificates say Certificate of Live Birth. All of them have raised seals. All of them passed the State Department requirements needed to get passports. After September 11 when these things were supposed to have greater scrutiny. I’m sitting here at my desk looking at those,along with my oldest child’s BC. They all say Certificate of Live Birth,even though they don’t look exactly alike. Every state has a different format/set up,but the info is basically the same.
STFU BOB and Paul L. Seriously,just shut up. Go get your own Birth Certficates and look at them,read the fucking things. Jesus. I really can’t stand willful stupidity.
Jay in Oregon
@BDeevDad:
The Constitution also specifies that people who are citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution are eligible to be President. It’s covered in Article II.
JGabriel
@Ed Drone:
Ed, as noted earlier in this thread, the statute BOB quotes applies to naturalized citizens, not natural born citizens.
Since Obama’s mother is a natural born citizen, her citizenship passes on to her son no matter what the circumstances – foreign birth and/or non-citizen father, both would be irrelevant.
.
Ash Can
@ironranger:
I think BOB is actually John Cole or one of the other front pagers. There have been only two posts today, so my theory is that John and his crew just aren’t that into blogging today, but want to do something to keep us amused so they drop a BOB comment or two in the thread and let us go at it. It’s like tossing a couple of catnip mice and jinglebell balls into a room full of cats.
nepat
Where’s the “Clown Shoes” tag on this post? Conspicuous in its absence.
GregB
I just laugh at the birther clowns.
Fucking right in their stupid, racist, redneck faces.
Ridicule is much more than they deserve, but it sure feels good.
-G
JM
This is why the birfers are a fad: they require new levels of stupid every day, just to keep going.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
@Brick Oven Bill:
They are very clear as to the status of the people they apply to. They are totally irrelevant in this case, because Obama’s mother was a natural-born citizen born in the US to two natural-born citizens. Nothing in the world could have taken away her ability to pass on her citizenship to her child! Had she been a naturalized citizen who had not lived in the US for the specified time, then this shit would apply, but she wasn’t, and it doesn’t.
Svensker
@over_educated:
LOL Paul L. you pathetic hack. If you have thrown your lot in with the birthers you are an even sadder sack then when you came here last fall with your hillary nonsense.
You’re confusing your hacks. “Paul L” has always been a wingnut. PLuk (aka Paul Lukiasak) was a Hillary Dem who went round the bend when the Negro became the front runner.
cleek
BoB is a troll. his goal is to get people wound-up.
ignore him.
Brick Oven Bill
We know the birth certificate is legitimate because it was submitted by the Obama Administration to the Annenberg Foundation (oh, sorry, Fact Check, owned by Annenberg) for independent verification. None of this matters any way because the Obama Administration assures us on its website that the controversy is ‘not about that piece of paper’.
Also he won. It would be nice to see that Passport used to travel to Pakistan. Also it would be nice to see the paperwork from college. Bush and Kerry both submitted their transcripts. Obama shouldn’t have to submit his transcripts though. Those transcripts are to be retained by Goldman Sachs for leverage.
GregB is a flaming Creationist.
Beeb
JohnR, I think you would enjoy this post from Jack Balkin, who agrees with you. It takes an originalist to spoof an originalist. http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/03/who-cares-about-john-mccain-george.html
BOB, you forgot this part:
Birth Abroad Out-of-Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen Mother: A child born abroad out-of-wedlock to a U.S. citizen mother may acquire U.S. citizenship under Section 301(g) INA, as made applicable by Section 309(c) INA if the mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of the child’s birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.
Betcha he can’t prove his parents were married. I mean, have you ever seen the long form marriage certificate? Has anyone? I thought not.
steve s
There’s a shit-ton of evidence Obama is a citizen. It’s not sufficient for the birthers to try to pick and poke and say it’s not good enough. They need to propose an alternate hypothesis, and show that there’s more evidence for that.
Brachiator
@The Moar You Know:
Another variety of short answer is that the founders wanted to minimize the change that a president might have allegiances to a foreign nation. The US was still a new country, and the concern about domination by older powers was still manifest.
And Americans had the example of George I, Elector of Hanover, who became king of England, and his offspring George III who also maintained his German connections and married a German woman. Many of the founders past models of rulers included foreign alliances sealed by marriage, etc.
There was an interesting exceptionalism at work here. The founders separated themselves from the idea of a monarchy. Then they sealed the deal by requiring that the president be a born American, further separating themselves from the idea that aristocratic connections or relationships with the power players of Europe would help any presidential candidate.
OK. Not so short an answer.
It’s funny. Before his adminstration became mired in failure, some people were seriously toying with the Constitution so that Austrian-born Arnold Schwarzenegger might be able to run for president. But suddenly now that Obama has been elected, a wingnut fringe is now magically obsessed with citizenship.
Marmot — I think you’re exactly right. The explanation that birthers are just racists is incomplete and a little lazy. They’re bewildered by the changing world around them, and the all these people calling themselves Americans just look too alien to be real to them.
You don’t have to label these people simplistically as racists to observe that racial anxiety is at the heart of their problem. They are not just “bewildered by the changing world around them,” they cannot accept the fact that a black man is president, especially a Democrat.
They might have had less of a problem had Colin Powell run and won as a Republican Christian pro-war hawk, since they have a hard-on for patriotism and religion. But there would still be a scared wingnut core even here.
Sly
OT: The Salem Witch Trials also took place when there was very little legal infrastructure in Massachusetts, as the Royal Charter had been revoked in 1629 by James II. The Charter wasn’t restored until 1692, by which time the legal system had atrophied. One of Governor Phipps firsts acts was to appoint new judges and county sheriffs, and he filled many of those positions with people who had absolutely no formal legal training.
None of the judges on the Court of Oyer and Terminer, which handled the Salem Trials, had any legal expertise whatsoever (All, I believe, were seminarians). This made it very easy for the trials to grow immensely beyond the scope of similar proceedings elsewhere.
joe from Lowell
Unfortunately, he sent it to Bill Ayers’ Annenberg Group for verification.
We know the birth certificate is legitimate because it was submitted by the Obama Administration to the Annenberg Foundation (oh, sorry, Fact Check, owned by Annenberg) for independent verification.
“Bill Ayers’ Group” is the Annenberg Foundation?
These guys?
http://www.annenberg.org
The big, national charitable foundation the Annenberg Foundation? That’s supposed to be “Bill Ayers Group?” With “Group” capitalized, as if it’s a consulting firm he runs?
I don’t think Bill is ignorant. I think he traffics in ignorance, in an effort to manipulate the ignorant.
ironranger
@Ash Can:
That crossed my mind too. Doesn’t really matter who bob really is. He’s having a devilishly good time & I have been pretty amused & entertained, also.
ed
Hey! Take it easy on Liz Cheney. Her daddy was (de facto) President of the United States of America!
Kilkee
Meanwhile, over on Gawker, they have a priceless Lou Dobbs clip which includes a comment from some guy named Guy Lambert from WHFS in Washington, who solemnly declares that the birfers have a point because what Obama has produced is (as he pronounces it) “a certificate of LIV birth,” which, he tells us, is very different from a “birth certificate.” And then he repeats it, in case we missed it the first time. That’s right, a moron too stupid to know that it’s “LIVE birth,” not “LIV” (as in, say, those yellow “Live Strong” bracelets) is explaining why this is all very important. And how there are major differences between the two documents. Also.
steve s
Indeed, he reminds me of a guy who trolled an evolution site I used to hang out at. Liked pushing everyone’s buttons by making convoluted bullshit arguments that he knew were bullshit. Big annoying waste of time. That’s why I like Cleek’s filter. If only it was sophisticated enough to rid me of all the responses to BOB as well…
mcd
The Army reservist who volunteered for Afghani duty and then filed suit has filed suit after being let go from his civilian job.
We’ll not have health care because of all this.
IndieTarheel
@Woody: Maybe they should try some Burkean bells.
vacuumslayer
@El Cid:
“Freaktard.” Heh hehheheh. So stealing.
Origuy
A friend of mine was born in London, to American parents. She has a Certificate of Naturalization, from the American Consulate. Her birth certificate, if she had it, would be from the UK. In order to get a passport, she would need to provide the naturalization certificate and the UK birth certificate.
Barack Obama certainly has a USA passport. Were he born in Kenya when it was a British colony, he would need paperwork from the American Consulate in Kenya (or maybe London) showing that he was born to an American mother overseas. His Hawaiian COLB would show that he was born in Kenya. It doesn’t. It shows that he was born in Honolulu.
In order to show that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii, all the birthers need to do is obtain that Certificate of Naturalization from Kenya. Oh? They can’t? Too bad!
tavella
They didn’t send it *anywhere*; it was on file in the Chicago campaign headquarters, Factcheck are just the only people who asked if they could come look at it (a request the Obama campaign promptly acceded to.)
But as has been pointed out, it’s all pointless. The campaign clearly thought at first that the proto-birthers were sincere, thus them obtaining a copy of his Hawaiian birth certificate and posting it on line. Of course, the birthers immediately started claiming forgery. So they let Factcheck in to handle it and take pictures. And the birthers screamed that it was an Annenberg conspiracy. The Hawaiian health director confirmed it was a Hawaii birth certificate and that she had gone down and looked at the original, confirming his Hawaiian birth. About that time, the campaign clearly realized what the birthers were about wasn’t “only a natural born citizen can be president”; what they were really screaming was “a nigger can’t be president.”
It’s racism, pure and simple; what they are howling at is the idea of anyone who isn’t white like them being in charge.
JM
… which is why BOB brought them up, yes.
Not even the invocation of Bill Ayers’ satanic name?
But … that always works in BOB’s trailer park.
KG
Ok, I’m not coming here until after noon, it’s hard enough as it is for me to not drink in the office before noon as it is. Shit like this just as me reaching for the rockstar and vodka.
Andy K
@mcd:
From the link:
Is Taitz a KGB plant, activated by former KGB man Vladimir Putin to foment dissent? Is B.O.B. a Communist dupe?
gex
@mcd: It seems that this member of the “base” has forgotten who the enemy is. He’s so upset about Obama, he’s going after the military and defense contractors. Not to mention that the base usually supports the idea that employers can and should be able to fire someone in their employ for whatever reason they see fit.
Nice to see right-wing idjits eating their own for a change.
slag
“L-Che”? Ohhhh…you mean Secretary of State Liz Cheney. Yeah, I don’t know what’s up with her. I’m thinking President Gingrich needs to reign her in a bit.
Elie
I disagree that saying the “birfer” bull over and over serves to reinforce it as some sort of truth or adds to the credibility of their claims. I think that it does the opposite and becomes more and more irrelevant and makes them look ever more idiotic.
Its the ploy of a group that continues to lose traction in the public discourse no matter which extreme and emotionally paranoid point of view they try to go to next… Liz Cheney is a loser and she represents loser points of views for the remaining loser segment of the right wing Republican Party.
This is not the mark of success or of strategic brilliance. This is the mark of their ongoing failure and irrelevance. Truly, where can they go from here? They are throwing the kitchen sink to do anything to keep health care reform from being any kind of success. But they will fail and be relegated to the ash can of history — a bunch of poop throwing primates who can only scream and point…
Roger Moore
@Beeb:
His parents were married, but it’s questionable if it was a legal marriage. Obama Sr. was already married in Kenya and hadn’t gotten a legal divorce, so he couldn’t have been legally married a second time in the USA.
KG
by the way, anyone try listening to Limbaugh this morning? I made it about 10 minutes. Apparently, the health care bill is about to fail and that is going to spell the end of the Obama Administration. And Obama hasn’t done anything for anyone, and the whole TARP program and bailout is entirely on him. And Obama is apparently an egocentric ass who only cares about himself and doesn’t give a damn about anyone else. And he’s going to let the government decide who lives and who dies based on how old they are and what kind of health they are in (like this is somehow worse than the private bureaucrats doing it now?). It was absolutely surreal, I could hear the spittle through the radio.
olo
I was aware of her but this clip is the first time I’ve seen or heard “Che”.
I’m taken back by how miserable a person she is.
I’ve watched Carville for a while & seen him devolve into a vile clown act with his screechy wife.
KG
@olo: honestly, I think anyone who spends a lifetime engaged in partisan politics would end up being a miserable person; especially in this day and age.
Ash Can
@Kilkee:
Holy crap. You just can’t make this shit up, can you? Did he actually say what he thought the differences were, or did he just blather on like a raving lunatic?
Stooleo
OT
Yoo gets punked
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/07/22/john-enhanced-interr.html
btw what happened to the embeding buttons?
Brachiator
@steve s:
Evidence doesn’t matter. I knew that the birther nonsense had become elevated to an official Crazy Conspiracy Theory(tm) when I heard it being discussed on the successor to the Art Bell late night radio talk show.
Once crazy conspiracy theorists become fixated on their nonsense, nothing could ever contradict it because their obsessive need to validate their theory requires that they become immune to reason and reject any contrary information.
The birthers keep focusing on a single document, the birth certificate, even though a birth announcement in the local papers easily corroborate Obama’s birth. But the birthers ignore this and obsessively fall back onto the phony birth certificate issue.
These people hang onto the conspiracy because their craziness is really about something else. UFO believers have inferiority complexes and need to believe in godlike beings that have come to either save or threaten them.
Birthers suffer from a weird racial anxiety and a need to rationalize their fear of a black man being president.
Ask them exactly why the birth certificate is significant. Do they believe that Obama’s mother was really not his mother?
kay
@Kilkee:
Birth certificates are governed under state law. The laws are all different, although they have to comply with certain federal standards.
Dobb’s claim is akin to challenging Obama’s (national) driving privilege because an Illinois driver’s license looks different than one issued in Connecticut.
Really. Lou Dobbs should lose his show over this. This is over the top stupid.
He’s a comic book character, after this.
Evolutionary
@Brick Oven Bill: Hey BoB a statute can’t override the constitution! If you believe in Constitutional “Originalism” then you have to go back and figure out what the Framers of the Constitution meant. There is a nice discussion at which is referenced from the Wikipedia article on “Natural Born Citizen”
The paper is about whether John McCain was eligible to be president or not!
mcd
I just love the suit addressed to Barack Hussein Obama, de facto President of the United States from Major Birther.
Also.
Mnemosyne
Question for the birfers: why is it called a “Certificate of Live Birth”?
Hint: there is another certificate that could be issued that is the opposite, which is why the one Obama has specifies “live birth.”
Svensker
@mcd:
Part of his complaint:
“Plaintiff seeks to avoid not only court-martial in this country, but also treatment as a war-criminal or terrorist, not eligible even for protection under the Geneva Convention , if he were found to be a merely mercenary soldier in a private army of slaves ‘owned’ or controlled by an unconstitutional and therefore illegal commander, if he does not ask the question, ‘is this order legal?'”
So these fucks want protection under Geneva if they’re picked up in a foreign country? Heh. Double heh.
Besides the complete gobbledygook. Did Sara Palin write it?
kay
@mcd:
I’d like some more prominent Republicans to join this effort.
Liz Cheney got nailed riling up the dupes, like the weasel she is, so had to walk it back quick-like to retain some measure of credibility.
More of this, please. Let’s ask all of them.
matoko_chan
well..it is going to be a big problem for the GOP.
Avalon
Yup….bad timing.
Just when the creeps are getting traction on scaremongering healthcare, the psycho-birfers are going to scare the indies right into the democrat tent.
Dusty
@ Svensker
How would someone be both a “mercenary soldier” and a “slave”? I mean, are you doing it for the cash or because your owner orders you to? That doesn’t even make sense.
kay
@Svensker:
It’s racist language. Let’s not pretend it has anything to do with the law.
The drafter wanted the words ‘private army of slaves” in a complaint captioned “Barack Hussein Obama”. The phrase is completely extraneous to the claim.
This is a real test for Republicans. This isn’t hah-hah Rush Limbaugh.
They either distance themselves from this filth or get it hung around their collective necks.
PurpleGirl
Joe from Lowell:
Barack Obama most certainly did not send his birth certificate to the Chicago Annenberg Challenge for verification. … They sent it to factcheck.org. … Why would you send your birth certificate to a school reform charitable board for verification?
The Chicago Annenberg Challenge was finished by this time. Ayers and Obama served on its Board of Directors. By 2005 (I believe), the Chicago Challenge had written and published its 3 results papers as required by the grant rules.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I may be asking for problems, but BOB just what result are you and the other birthers looking for? Do you want Obama to step down as president? If (and it’s a big IF) it was true that he is not a citizen, then what do you want to have happen?
steve s
shocker!
Brachiator
@matoko_chan:
The GOP doesn’t know how to dial back on the crazy. They are joined at the hip to Rush Limbaugh, who loves the sound of his own voice and can’t be bothered with anything less than rabble rousing.
And even if they thought they might be able to get out of the racist wingnut mire, Sarah Palin is about to pull them back in. She is too stupid to understand how her ignorant rants about “real Americans” sends out starbursts to birthers.
SrirachaHotSauce
@Brick Oven Bill:
Ten dollars says you are DougJ.
freelancer
@purple:
If (and it’s a big IF) it was true that he is not a citizen, then what do you want to have happen?
It’s really stupid, because you would have to prove that his mom is Also not a natural born citizen.
kay
@steve s:
The daughter of the former Vice President of the United States had to issue a retraction on the issue of Barack Obama’s “right” to be President of the United States.
I think this thing is a wee bit out of control. Liz is sweating a little. It’s fine if the dupes DONATE but she doesn’t intend to be mistaken for one.
The Saff
I just finished reading Richard Wolffe’s “Renegade: The Making of a President.” I get the impression that this whole birther silliness makes Obama chuckle. He’s not easily riled. On the other hand, it makes me crazy. The racism is so offensive.
Maus
“to retain some measure of credibility.
More of this, please. Let’s ask all of them.” They all do this, they flirt and wink and do everything but go all out, and they’re never held to any standards. If called out, they return to their ways on the next show that will not call them out.
joe from Lowell
I can appreciate it as a cultural phenomenon, The Saff.
It’s like reading about a mass hysteria breaking out among some Amazon tribe. The toad spirits tore the sling I carry fruit in! The toad spirits made my baby die! The toad spirits are in that dog! Look out for the toad spirits!
PurpleGirl
Freelancer: I know it is stupid. But BoB and other birthers just make their claims and I want to know what their end result is. What the point to this whole trumped up controversy is. Personally, I think that the thing that binds birthers together is that they cannot and do not want to (especially the do not want to) accept that the USofA elected a black man to be president. (I voted for him, btw.)
Not that I want start a threadjack, but I also believe that if Hillary Clinton had gotten the nomination, Republicans wouldn’t have voted for her. After all the Republicans spent $40-odd million dollars investigating President Clinton and her. The Republicans cannot accept that enough people didn’t like McCain and Palin enough to vote for them.
They cannot accept changes in our culture and society. It’s too bad because it makes us a better country.
Ed Drone
It’s the Wobbly paradox — can you say “wage slaves?”
Good! And it makes as much sense as the most mindless slogan of your average Trotskyite (actually, probably less sense, but we’re arguing nutcases vs. nutcases anyway).
Ed
Brick Oven Bill
What is the desired outcome?
John Adams explained to us that all democracies commit suicide. Socrates explained to us that democracies yield to a tyrant. This political cycle is rapidly coming to a close. I give it less than four more years.
President Obama appears to be operating flagrantly in violation of the Constitution. His arrogance will likely create a backlash, which I hope includes a return to the principles and values of the Constitution, as envisioned by the Founding Fathers. It is all about the individual and free will.
This is why I speculate that President Obama is a divine gift to the human spirit. Humanity deserves better than Zimbabwe. They do not practice the Liberal Arts in Zimbabwe. Life sucks down there. They hang tires filled with gasoline around political opponents’ necks and light them on fire.
That would suck. We don’t want that here. Go Constitution.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@SrirachaHotSauce: there used to be an active link on Bob’s name with an actual blog and pictures of the backyard brick ovens.
http://www.brickoven.blogspot.com/
This could be an elaborate joke by Dougj I guess…
Napoleon
@joe from Lowell:
“I can appreciate it as a cultural phenomenon, The Saff.”
I actually appreciate it as something that can help progressives in this country by destroying the Republicans for a generation. The whole theory is so crazy and toxic it will take 30 years for a good chunk of the electorate to quit thinking of the Republicans as the crazy dumb white people party. Just as the Republicans and DLC wing of the Dem. party have spent the last 30 – 40 years running against the DFH you are going to see the same thing happen with the crazies in the GOP. That is why even though before last falls election I really wanted to see Michelle Bachman (sp?) loose, I actually now do not want to see her get beat by a Dem unless the difference would be coughing up control of the house. Every time she opens her mouth on national TV another chunk of the electorate unconsciously decides it will pull the Dem lever in the booth the next 30 years.
At some point the Rep will have to decide en mass to ignore that wing of their party and to quit catering to it in order to distance themselves. In and of itself that will be a good thing for America, even if it results in Rep. winning offices.
kay
@Maus:
I don’t know. Go read a birther blog. This stuff is poison. I know Liz Cheney doesn’t read it. She’s thinking it’s akin to Rush and Coulter.
It isn’t. It’s scary stuff. Ooops. Too late!
Dreggas
I am surprised Michelle “teh census is teh evil” Bachmann isn’t out there asking for the birth certificate.
freelancer
@purple,
I actually covered this and the core nature of Conspiracy Theories and how their proponents operate a while back when Jesse Ventura was making the rounds on different talk shows to pimp his book in paperback and shout down torture.
http://forgetthisnoise.blogspot.com/2009/05/expert-on-torture-does-not-expert-on.html
He made an appearance on Alex Jones’s Infowars radio show wherein Jones brought up NWO and 9/11 truther CT’s and Ventura didn’t say one word otherwise to contradict the nutcase. This was in stark contrast to every other appearance where he had no difficulty tackling right-wingers on torture on their own shows.
MarkH from scienceblogs.com/denialism calls it thusly:
In the paranoid mind of the Conspiracy Theorist, there are three classes of human beings:
1)You are a perpetrator of the conspiracy, and thus a special secretive type of evil.
2)You are a dupe, a human completely unaware to the deeper world happening around you. You are described as Sheep, and are often expendable because of your obliviousness and ignorance.
3)You are one of those aware of the conspiracy. You are a savior, trying to expose the truth to the dupes, holding them in reserved contempt while shedding light on those who would try to shadow your world with darkness.
In other words, they all feel like they’re Neo in the future world of the Matrix.
Piper
I think what motivates the Birthers is that they urn to say the words- President Joe Biden. How could you not get excited over that?
kay
@Piper:
It’s funny, because one of the tens of judges who thew out one of their tens of claims mentioned Biden.
If Obama is removed, Biden goes too.
Let’s give a warm welcome to President Pelosi.
gex
@kay: Needless to say that I dislike the non-dupes who peddle this shit for personal gain more than I dislike the dupes who buy into it.
How much is enough Liz Cheney? Hasn’t your family made enough money playing the game? Why do you need to destroy the country to chase further wealth and power? Go live lavishly on some paradise island and leave us the fuck alone.
arguingwithsignposts
@joe from Lowell:
Bumper stickers, anyone?
arguingwithsignposts
@Brick Oven Bill:
Um, BOB, you forgot your talking points. we don’t live in a democracy. we live in a republic.
Brachiator
@Brick Oven Bill:
Really? Where? Socrates seemed to have a soft spot for rule by aristocrats (for example, his relationship to Alkibiádēs).
Really? How?
You don’t seem to have had similar reservations about the Bush/Cheney crime syndicate, which clearly threw the Constitution in the trash. Where, for example, do you find constitutional support for Cheney’s outrageous assertion of a novel uncertainty principle that placed him outside the Executive Branch?
Are there multiple people posting under your name? I find it hard to believe that a single person could be so consistently wrongheaded and uniformed about so many things.
kay
@gex:
There’s a real danger in conservative’s putting forth spokespeople who are not elected, or who no longer hold office.
Liz Cheney doesn’t have the check on her behavior that an accountable and elected person has, nor does Rush, or Beck, or Gingrich, or Palin, or Coulter, or Santorum and on and on and on.
You don’t hear John McCain spouting this nonsense, and there’s a good reason for that. He’s a Senator.
Mister Papercut
I’m no expert but, unless I’m completely high or reading it wrong, Section 301(g) of the INA referenced in the vaunted Acquisition of U.S. Citizenship By a Child Born Abroad even gets Kenya off the hook (if not for the fact that Obama was, y’know, born in Hawaii, making this the mootest of all moot discussions…):
Brick Oven Bill
Plato Republic, Book 8. They don’t cover this part of the Republic at a Harvard class on government that I looked at the reading list (the professor most likely considered it to be insensitive). But it is very good.
We used to be a Republic where 1 in 4 males could vote, the engaged ones, this was similar but more inclusive than the Greeks. Now we are essentially a democracy, and are no doubt in the process of committing suicide.
I now have to go as there is no TV here, and it takes me a while to transit to where I can watch Glenn Beck’s show. You all have a great Constitutional day!
Kilkee
@Ash Can: As you might suspect, he made no attempt to actually explain how a birth certificate differed from a “certificate of Liv birth,” so I am left to assume that that latter has something to do with Steven Tyler’s daughter.
Woodrowfan
sometimes I wonder if President Obama is ignoring the birthers on the idea of “never murder a man who is committing suicide.”
kay
@Mister Papercut:
It’s just that they won’t think. They won’t make the most basic common-sense connections.
If Obama was born in Kenya his mother had to be there, and she had to come back to Kansas. How’d she pull that off? Ruby slippers?
Kilkee
@kay: Yes, this is really where teh stoopid is strongest. If you were a pregnant, almost destitute 18-year old American woman living in Honolulu, what would possess you to run off to the other side of the freakin’ world, to a country with sub-standard medical facilities, to have your first child? (And then to take the trouble, of course, to place a fake announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser claiming that your son had been born there….)
Woodrowfan
Kilkee, plus she’d be leaving behind supportive family and friends to have her first baby among strangers, AND not leave behind any records such as a passport or a visa…
Bruce Webb
Sigh. I made my little attempt last December to stomp out this grass fire before it blew up into the raging blaze. Apparently the embers just smoldered.
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2008/12/nationality-act-of-1940-nipping-wingnut.html
Most of the cases the Birthers use derive from two failed court cases:
Berg v Obama & Donofrio v Wells.
Donofrio v Wells takes up the Kenyan issue. Quite apart from the legal issues this falls apart on inspection of the logistics. In 1961 we were at the dawn of the jet age and long distance international flights meant multiple legs often on multiple airlines. This was an exhausting and more important for this situation an extra-ordinarily expensive proposition. Are we seriously to believe that a subsidized foreign student from a more than modest background somehow came up with the scratch to fly his very young and very pregnant wife to Kenya (something that by my count would have required at least four flight legs) and then his wife and newborn back including some plan to get the kid through immigration? Plus what would his motive be? Making sure in advance that no kid of his would ever grow up to be Leader of the Free World? Obama was not born in Kenya because doing so under the circumstances existing in 1961 made it a practical impossibility.
Berg v Obama is more interesting in that it tackles the Indonesia issue where there actually are some facts and documents in play (Obama did visit Pakistan, and a school id card showing him as both Indonesian and Muslim exists). But none of that matters, the whole case falls apart by totally misunderstanding the provisions of the Nationality Act of 1940 and ignoring the subsequent provisions of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952
I didn’t come up with this on my own, this was all developed by the blogger who set up ‘What’s your Evidence’ last Fall. This is a mandatory reference place for anyone wanting to stomp Birthers.
They are wrong on the facts and wrong on the law. Which as the old lawyer’s adage suggests, leaves them pounding on the table.
http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/2008/10/did-obama-becom.html
Obama was not legally competent to renounce his citizenship while a child in Indonesia. And no action taken on his behalf by a parent or guardian to renounce that citizenship would have prevented him regaining American citizenship as long as he re-established legal residency by age 25.
For all I know Obama could have a secret stash of British Imperial, Kenyan, and Indonesian passports somewhere. None of that matters as long as he was a citizen by virtue of being born to an American and/or a natural born citizen by being born in the State of Hawaii. All attempts to argue otherwise are relying on law superceded by the 1940 & 1952 Acts.
kay
@Bruce Webb:
Great post, Bruce, but it won’t matter. At some point you have to look for an objective, and the objective here is to discredit Obama.
That’s what the lawsuits are about, that’s what the theories are about. That’s the objective. Damage the credibility of the elected President by any means necessary, simply because they lost an election.
My hope is there is collateral damage to “serious” Republicans now that this is blowing up, because I think actions should have consequences.
Brachiator
@Bruce Webb:
Good stuff. But as you note, this nonsense continues to smolder and flares up again because the conspiracy nuts are immune to reason.
This reminds me of the moon landing deniers. They huff and puff to come up with supposed inconsistencies related to the first moon landing, but when you ask that they show that every moon landing was faked, they just ignore you and fall back on the inconsistencies related to the first moon landing.
And sadly, the birther wingnuts, like the typical conspiracy loon, have a magic reset button which restores all of their delusions even when they are presented with evidence that refutes their claim.
Still, Limbaugh and the worst Republicans know that it is to their advantage to keep this crap going as they try to envelop Obama with a cloud of negativity. It doesn’t matter whether any of this stuff is insane if it hurts Obama’s popularity.
David Hunt
All records of what really happened were altered by the vast Kenyan Communist Conspiracy at the same time the forged birth certificate was placed in Hawaii. The fact that all available records back up the bogus story that Obama was born in Hawaii is simply proof that the Conspiracy is more powerful and skilled than previously thought. It’s the only possible explanation for there being no evidence.
Snark ends here.
Taking BOB at his word, he wants a U.S. where we go back to only 1 in 4 people get to vote. The chosen elite who can vote are the ones that are “engaged” (read: wealthy land owner). The Republican Party would love that, alright. Restricting it to white men like it was in the 18th Century is, I assume, negotiable as the 14th and 19th amendments might be a little bothersome.
Now, a more serious note about what the Birthers want. They want what we appear to be moving in the direction of: sustained national coverage of their theories by major news organizations and politicians as a serious issue. The leaders of the movement know that they will never get Obama removed from office. But the constant repetition of the questioning of his legitimacy weakens his Administration. The best case for them is if their propaganda contributes to Republican electoral victories in 2010 and (especially) 2012. 2012 is most important because once a Republican in the Whitehouse again, we can go back supporting dictatorial powers.
arguingwithsignposts
One wonders when the birthers will fall into the same category as the 9/11 was an inside job folks.
ericvsthem
I’m all for making jokes about wingers, but this birther stuff, in the eyes of some who believe it (and I have very little doubt that this number may be in the hundreds of thousands or even millions), legitimizes violent actions against Obama in an effort to remove him from office. This issue, to me, has never been the least bit funny.
JenJen
Late to the party, but honestly, here’s what’s going on, and I’m certain I’m not the first to observe this (and I don’t know because after I hit up Paul and BOB’s comments I was out like Palin):
Crazy McCain Rally Lady is now Crazy Birther Rally Lady. That’s really all there is to it. No? No?
(May I also remind all that Crazy McCain Rally Lady was a really popular Halloween costume last year.)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/16/snls-crazy-mccain-rally-l_n_135463.html
Laura W
@JenJen:
Always reminding me why I lurf you so.
When does SNL come back? Not soon enough. That was hands down my favorite skit of the whole election season.
Mike in NC
@BOB
I’d like to see Obama’s receipt from his last oil change at Jiffy Lube. Just because!
You’re going to Best Buy?
JenJen
@Laura W: Oh, oh, me too! I’ll never forget practically falling off the couch when Crazy McCain Rally Lady enters the picture off-screen. I imagine Tina Fey is going to be dragged back to SNL due to unforeseen Palin events whether she likes it or not.
Went to three Halloween parties last season; used Crazy McCain Rally Lady costume twice! Easiest costume evuh. More please!!
Anne Laurie
What, you’ve got some kind of DFH gripe against the political theory of Natural Aristocracy, a/k/a “Nepotism”? Liz Cheney, who was born solely to keep her sire Darth Cheney out of the Vietnam War he vociferously supported (as long as other people did the fighting), is the natural spokesperson for that subset among the Birfers who truly believe that only White Guys With Money should be allowed to make laws in this American Republic. I’m sure that one of her greatest regrets is that the mighty Big Dick never had a legitimate son to carry on his legacy. Much as Liz strives to be “the next best thing”, without a Y chromosome she can never aspire to the throne herself. And if you think I’m being too sexist — do you think it’s a coincidence that the Birfers insist that Obama’s *mother* couldn’t confer presidential-level citizenship for him?
b-psycho
TBH, I’m still cracking up over the birther outburst popping up in freakin Delaware…
mcd
If you’re arguing the “facts” with Birthers, you’ve already lost.
EDIT to add: This is what Wingnuts do: Obfuscate everything to the point at which it’s “politics” to disagree with them. They’ve done it with most everything — and been damned successful at it.
joe from Lowell
Crazy McCain Rally Lady is now Crazy Birther Rally Lady.
Bingo.
“He’s not a Christian.”
“He’s not an American.”
It’s the same thing. He’s not one of “us.” We’ve all seen how much effort Republicans put into defining “us.”
I’ve read…about…uh…I don’t trust…uh…Obama. He’s…he’s not…he’s…uh…
He’s an Arab.
(vigorously shakes head)
No?
(vigorously shakes head)
No, ma’am.
joe from Lowell
Don’t the non-insane Republicans look like sad sacks responding to those people?
He’s an Arab: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjfB1tdCO9I
I have a birth certificate from the United States of America: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1nmn2zRMc
PS: you have a birth certificate from the United States of America? Really?
Is that Interior, State, or HHS?
PurpleGirl
The NY Times had a column about the birther movement. After reading 186 of the 500+ comments I couldn’t stand it any more. There are certain things I’ve been wanting to say for ages now… so I posted the following comment:
I’ve been following this issue for a while and the language of what the birthers want seems to change every so often. Long form or vault copy, etc. and they ask for President Obama to supply the birth certificate and not a certificate of live birth. I want EVERYBODY to show their “original” from the hospital birth certificate… What you don’t have one? Why not?
Maybe because hospitals give the records to the health/vital records department of their local government unit and not to the parents of the child whose birth was recorded.
I have a photocopy — a real photocopy in the original sense of the term, a photograph — of mine, which my parents obtained from the Health Department (or Bureau of Vital Records) in NYC at some point after my birth. It is a photograph, black showing white writing and it has an embossed seal at the bottom with some legal language. My point is that they didn’t get it when I was born, they had to ask for and pay for it sometime later.
Following this issue has the feel of watching a slow-motion train wreck in progress. What is our country coming to.
Jason
Actually, Balkin and colleagues make a strong case that if you’re really seriously about reading the Constitution’s “plain language” (as Scalia, for example, claims to be), then virtually no Presidents we have elected were qualified under the Constitution – and none at all after Zachary Taylor.
Taking Text And Structure Really Seriously (PDF)
Under the strictest reading, only John Adams and John Quincy Adams make the cut.
Wile E. Quixote
@Brick Oven Bitch
Paul
Orly Taitz sounds like Arnold Schwarzenegger and acts like Sarah Palin. Oh well…