The capitulation is complete:
The Senate will not vote on health care legislation before leaving for its summer recess, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Thursday, as he finally acknowledged out loud the inescapable political reality that has been clear for several days.
Mr. Reid, speaking at a weekly news conference, said he expected a bipartisan agreement on health care legislation to emerge from the Senate Finance Committee before the recess begins on Aug. 8 and that he would spend the break merging that bill with legislation approved by the Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions.
It is over. They’ll find a reason to kill it over the recess.
ChicagoPat
Why are they even allowed a recess? Eat your carrots to get dessert, damn it!
NR
I’d call that a radical interpretation of the text.
Chaz
Well, that’s pretty disgusting. For some reason I was expecting better.
Bertie Wooster
Fuck Harry Reid. Fuck him. Worse than useless.
I have a Type I diabetic brother who can’t get insurance, and a daughter with a heart condition who will be preexisting-conditioned. Now they’re both fucked because this pecksniff insisted on shivving his own President’s agenda.
I can’t believe I tricked myself into believing that for once they might come through. This sucks more than anything has sucked before.
vacuumslayer
Somebody cheer me up.
Crashman06
Well, we’re fucked. So much for hope.
Xenos
Time for killing the bill, also time to come up with some mischief. Any way to start some rumors about a major criminal anti-trust enforcement coming down?
How about a way to limit non-profit executive compensation? Since these are charities under the direct supervision of the government, let’s squeeze them until the execs are as blue the Blue Cross on the insurance cards. They have not seen class warfare, although they sure like to complain about it.
Give up on the senators – we need to put pressure directly on their masters.
A Mom Anon
Reid needs to be primaried. He’s worse than useless,he’s destructive. He might as well just be a Republican. Him and the fucking Blue Dogs. And that moron Lieberman. Honest to god,if you agree with the republicans so much then just switch sides,at least be honest.
Who would be a good candidate to take Reid down?
eric
Ask Dan Rostenkowski if a recess is always the best thing.
eric
gex
I have nothing good to say. Nothing good at all. This country’s polity is broken, and it appears to be broken beyond repair.
@NR: The GOP and the Blue Dogs specifically dragged their feet, knowing full well that if it doesn’t get passed before recess, the odds go down significantly. And the odds weren’t looking very healthy before recess.
mcc
Although the worthlessness of Harry Reid cannot be overstated, and Congress should not be going into recess without this stuff passed, if we can get a house bill passed before the recess I call that an effective win. It’ll be harder to move on from there but possible. And Pelosi thinks we can do that much.
Something I wonder about is the claim I hear occasionally that the President actually has the power to cancel recess– I mean, compel Congress into meeting against its will. Has that ever happened?
John Hamilton Farr
I think John’s right. It’s over. And nothing, absolutely nothing, in this poor miserable godforsaken excuse for a country will EVER get fixed unless people turn off their teevees and give up the idea that emailing or phoning our “representatives” has any efficacy whatsoever.
FDL ought to be ashamed of themselves. Instead of making people feel like they’ve “done something” by blogging about it, they should be marshalling the troops to sit down in the hallways and streets and get arrested. If there had been email and blogs during the Vietnam years, the war would still be on!
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
Motherfuck you, Harry Reid. You too, Baucus.
mcc
Hm. You say that like the protesters during the Vietnam era were even marginally effective.
linda
But but harry reid’s a boxer and he’s faced down the vegas mob …
That gutless fucking coward.
The u.s. Congress — the greatest protection racket in the world.
gopher2b
Personally, I thought it was a shitty bill that will escalate the costs of healthcare and will inevitably lead to rationing. So, I’m not upset about it.
But, I’m totally amazed that a de house, filibuster proof Senate, and dem president cannot get this passed. Amazing.
lamh31
I think you might be right.
Here’s the thing that I think the Dems in Congress just don’t get it. They are writing their own political obituaries if they don’t get something done. Do they really believe that the Dem voter won’t blame them in 2010. Who really votes during this non-Presidential elections? The hard-core pols and activist.
Also, if it happens that Obama is not re-elected (I know 2012 is far away), and the Dems or pols are not seen to be trying to get the President’s agenda done or they are seen as actively working against the President’s agenda, then mark my words, you will have a lot of disillusioned first-time voters (particularly in my hood, Blacks & Latinos who voted for the first time just to vote for Obama) who will totally abandon the Dems, and these are THE VOTERS THAT DEMS NEED TO WIN. They won’t vote for the Repub, but you can bet they will just not go out and vote at all.
I hope for our sakes that the Dems wise up during the recess…though i doubt they will.
4tehlulz
I’d argue that Max Baucus is far more responsible for this than Harry Reid.
Either way, fuck them both ATM style.
MikeJ
You don’t actually think the demonstrations actually did anything do you?
on edit: Whoops. What mcc said.
Bertie Wooster
Fuck Baucus too.
Christ, this is as demoralizing as if McPalin had won.
cybergal619
Thanks again, Harry, for disappointing yet AGAIN!
The Grand Panjandrum
Nothing quite like that good old Cole optimism to brighten up an otherwise sunshine filled day.
@A Mom Anon: For majority leader? Or are you thinking primary challenge, because Reid might be one of the few Dems who could get elected to statewide office in Nevada.
chopper
the democrats never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
DeadlyShoe
simmer down people
Reid’s not my favorite guy either but I don’t understand the hate for him
What is he supposed to do when Baucus is preoccupied with grandstanding? threaten to shoot his cat?
CT Voter
Yes, it’s over. And Harry Reid has effectively screwed the Democratic Party, because they’re going to get hammered in 2010.
But at least they’re still searching for that bipartisan unity pony!
Demo Woman
When the repubs say that the insurance companies just need tweeking, tell them to make insurance companies non profit. That’s the only way to fix the problem. Let’s face insurance companies make money on healthy folks.
MikeJ
While its fun to blame Reid, he’s not the problem. Reid is the leader because the democrats in the Senate voted for him. They approve of the way he handles things. If they didn’t he wouldn’t be the leader. 56 other dems voted for him. Blame them.
gopher2b
I do have one solution to the problem of paying for healthcare. Charged people $10 for the right to listen in on the ass chewing Rahm must be giving Reid and Senate staffers right now. That would raise 10 Billion right there.
gex
@Bertie Wooster: In some ways it is worse. Americans want this reform. If the Dems can’t/won’t deliver it, who will? If McPalin won, we’d be able to raise a stink over the issue, and vote in Dems the next time around. But now? Where do you go? There’s only one party in town that gives any inkling that they think there’s a health care problem in this country, and they don’t take it seriously enough to do anything about it.
All that has been learned is that voting in the Democrats to 1) fix Wall Street and 2) fix health care looks looks like a complete and utter joke.
Geeno
I’d rather have an honest R from Nevada than Harry Reid.
Just Some Fuckhead
That’s quite a leap. I’m still optimistic that Congress will pass the worst bill imaginable in order to make future inaction on anything seem like the best possible course of action.
See also, Prescription drug benefit
General Winfield Stuck
You’ve been reading Punchy’s Armageddon Newsletter agin. Though this will mean that Obama will need to glue his mug to the teevee about every August day to fend off the vultures and Hyenas, or else a decent HC Bill may well die.
Davis X. Machina
A majority of the Democratic caucus voted for him, that’s all…
.
Allan
202-224-3542
Tell it to Harry. NOW.
gbear
@Bertie Wooster:
No it’s not.
Why not just retitle this pathetic thread “Chicken Little Was Right”.
It doesn’t have to be over yet.
Bertie Wooster
@MikeJ, DeadlyShoe
Point taken. Impulsively it’s easier to shoot the figurehead than to bemoan the whole shebang being broken. Still, the other hacks having voted for him doesn’t detract from his exceptionally pathetic performance as leader.
And a lot of us, myself included, are taking this personally. Like the farmer in the Grapes of Wrath, we just want to know who to shoot (figuratively speaking).
blahblahblah
Two words: “General Strike”.
flounder
I am used to being knifed. It is all the twisting it around that I am getting annoyed at.
Napoleon
@4tehlulz:
4tehlulz said: “I’d argue that Max Baucus is far more responsible for this than Harry Reid.”
I think you are right about that. If there is any truth to your link Reid absolutely needs to strip him of his chairmanship in the next congress and Obama has to retaliate every whey possible unless Baucus delivers. The Rep. leadership likely knows more about what Baucus is up to then his own parties.
MikeJ
Nope. He won 57 votes. His plus 56 dems. Franken wasn’t in office yet, Sanders and Lieberman aren’t dems.
catclub
Oh noes, Clinton’s gonna steal it with the superdelegates!
Untwist your panties.
Davis X. Machina
I’d rather have an honest R from Nevada than Harry Reid.
That’s the dodge that keeps Snowe and Collins in office, and it’s a dodge.
The moment that that ‘honest R’, on the first day of a new session, casts a vote against the rule organizing the new Senate under a Democratic majority leader, they’re no longer an ‘honest R’. They’re just an R.
Bertie Wooster
@gbear
Statement retracted. Foolish words spoken in blind frustration.
gopher2b
@Demo Woman:
I don’t think they need to do that but pass regulations that essentially say if you have medical insurance, it covers everything “medical.” Period. It should be as simple as I assume the risk up to the deductible limit and then the insurance company assumes everything above that. There is no reason medical insurance has to be more complicated than auto or fire insurance.
DougJ
I think it will still pass eventually.
Shibby
I’m really in shock right now. Health care reform was an absolute shoe-in must do. It had broad public support but our representatives demonstrated they care more about insurance companies and the rich than the average American. (Honestly in a recession we can’t find support for a 1% tax increase on the absolute wealthiest?) I’ve suspected for some time our democracy no longer serves the will of the people. It’s heart wrenching to see such a stark example. Apparently all we can muster up support for is guns, oil, g-d, and lower taxes. This country is fucked.
flavortext
My feelings in one word
MikeJ
This year in fact. I’d bet a beer on it.
JGabriel
John Cole @ Top:
Possibly.
On the other hand, I wouldn’t count Obama out yet. Obama seems like a smart enough guy to get this done if he really wants to, even if it goes past the August deadline. I would expect some Johnson level arm-twisting over the next few weeks or months.
My bigger concern is not that it won’t get done, but that Obama will accept a weak bill that is ineffective and makes people angry by being confusing and/or overly bureaucratic. Those 160-some Republican amendments accepted by the Democrats come to mind here.
.
slag
I’m as pessimistic as the next person, but I don’t see Obama giving up this easily. I know people like to call him a conciliator, and he does have quite a bit of that. But he also likes to get things done. In that way, he’s kind of a fighter.
Edit: Or what JGabriel said.
some guy
Between now and the fall there will be non-stop lies and distortions by the opposition and the “liberal” media will parrot their talking points verbatim. By the time Congress reconvenes, public opinion will have shifted decisively against a health care overhaul and the spineless Dems will give up or just pass some meaningless half-assed bill that fixes nothing.
Best case scenario is that they manage to pass some kind of subsidy that will provide private coverage to 20-30 million more Americans, but that will also allow the health care industry to continue raping the US economy (see, for instance, Medicare Part D and Medicare Advantage). But since that will cost tons of money, and Republicans/Blue Dogs refuse to sign on to any kind of tax increases, even that is a probably stretch.
Nothing good can come of waiting until the fall. Republicans will not suddenly change their minds– they’re already winning the media war– and Democrats will be more and more afraid of making big changes the closer we get to the 2010 elections. If it doesn’t get done fast, it’s not going to get done at all, at least not in any meaningful way.
Malron
Pelosi intends to embarrass the senate into postponing recess. At least I am holding out hope she will.
But yeah, it has always been my belief that Harry Reid never cared much for the uppity young president from Chicago and takes great pleasure in impeding his agenda. How many times recently has Reid tried to openly defy Obama with some statement that had to be “clarified” by someone on his staff a day or so afterward? With Democrats like Reid, who needs the GOP?
Davis X. Machina
MikeJ, you’re wrong. Senate Majority Leaders are elected by a majority of the Democratic caucus, and then two rules are put up under one of which the Senate for that session will be organized — but by then the Majority Leader named therein has already been chosen in caucus.
While the latter vote is, and ought to be, unanimous, the first vote is taken in caucus, is secret — we know who’s running but no numbers, not so much as who came in second, is reported out to the world at large.
From the Senate website:
A Mom Anon
@The Grand Panjandrum:
Replace his ass at the Federal level. Outta there,gone,see ya,buhbye. He’s completely spineless.
gopher2b
“On the other hand, I wouldn’t count Obama out yet. Obama seems like a smart enough guy to get this done if he really wants to, even if it goes past the August deadline. I would expect some Johnson level arm-twisting over the next few weeks or months.”
I seriously don’t get why Obama and his people don’t write the bills and say pass it. I like him. I voted for him. But he defers to Congress way too much.
kay
This is bad, and I generally try to be annoyingly upbeat in these situations.
But this is bad.
What’s so hard is watching it twice. Congress killed health care reform last time, along with eager help from a corrupt media and lobbyists, and they’re doing it again. It got so much worse after the first reform effort failed that I was refusing to believe they would kill it again, but they are.
I’ll bet anyone 5 bucks that when we get back there won’t be a public option, and the whole left side of the Democratic caucus will jump ship, including Pelosi, and we’ll be back to stalemate.
Martin
I agree. It’s a setback, but I don’t think this is a fatal one. Expect the WH to start kneecapping now, starting with Baucus.
Evie
Don’t be crazy. Wow, give up quickly much? We are further than we’ve ever been and are not going to stop now. They’ll get their “time,” and when they get back, we’ll pass something. I agree there is always a danger until it’s done and I am very, very worried about the public option surviving, but I don’t believe it is dead. Far from it.
Crashman06
@some guy: What you said. This is exactly how it’s going to happen.
burnspbesq
Those of you who have Democratic Sens and Congresscritters (I live in CA-40, where I have a hopeless wingnut Rep Congresscritter who is totally entrenched and two worse than useless Dem senators) need to get right up in their faces and be impolite about this for the entire month when they are home in the districts.
I’ll write to Royce one more time even though I know it’s a waste of time. I will tell Feinstein and Boxer that I will actively support any credible primary challenge. And god help the next poor sap from the DSCC who calls me.
burnspbesq
In fact, I think I will email the DSCC tonight and tell them exactly why I am reneging on the pledge I recently made.
MDee
DC Democrats – snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. It ain’t just a saying, it’s a lifestyle choice.
Midterms are going to be ugly, the next general election is going to be uglier. Why don’t half of them just admit they are repubs (aka corporate whores) at heart and get it over with? The cowards would rather be in the minority rolling over than in the majority being exposed for precisely what they are and are not.
What they are is a bunch of useless turds. They quite blatantly are not interested in serving the average citizen of this country. They are far more interested in lining their reelection coffers with industry moolah.
Healthcare is dead – the Democrats killed it on the altar of corporate/political greed. Again.
sparky
@flounder: um, win! sigh.
PeakVT
I don’t think we just heard the fat lady do her thing, but this isn’t a good development.
Tonal Crow
@gopher2b:
Bzzzzzt! GOPaganda alert!
We ration healthcare everyday. The uninsured get only emergency-room care, usually after their illnesses have progressed to where they’re much more expensive and difficult to treat. And many “insured” are really badly underinsured, often leading to substandard care and bankruptcy. Indeed, med bills are the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy. consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html .
We ration healthcare everyday. We just don’t do it rationally. And the result is more inhumanity, poorer health, more disability, and higher expenses than in nations that ration rationally.
jwb
I still think a bad bill is far more likely than no bill. Centrist Dems know very well that they are toast if nothing passes.
burnspbesq
@PeakVT:
That’s fair, but the orchestra is tuning up and the conductor will be on the podium momentarily.
kay
@gopher2b:
Because the last time we tried to reform health care the problem was that it was top-down, the White House micromanaged it “in secret” and the pain in my ass whiners in Congress weren’t consulted.
Remember that?
It’s hard to strike just the right balance with these preening morons we have somehow ended up with. They want control, but they don’t want any responsibility or risk. I don’t know that appeasing them is possible, unless you have a big sack of cash to spread around.
Eric S
I’ve never heard of it at the federal level.
Here in Illinois the gov has the power but it can be gamed. IIRC when Blagojevich was trying to call the leg back a few years ago the leg just designated one member, local to Springfield, to gavel a session in order, declare there was not quorum and go home.
Admittedly with all the national press such a move would garner it would be politically a lot harder for the congress to just ignore Obama’s call. But these guys are real good at doing nothing. I’m sure they’d come up with some way to avoid it.
Tim F.
John has an excellent track record when it comes to predicting how Democrats will shit their own bed.
Also. Someone please explain to me how much power Reid has to give someone else Max Baucus’s committee chair. If he has that power then fuck Harry Reid. The failure is on his head.
Legalize
I think a version of what Obama wants will still get passed. Did anyone actually think this would get done in the Senate by the end of July? Everyone will go home and Obama SHOULD be on the teevee every day in August making his case, while HOPEFULLY reaching the people, as he has always done. He will be the only game in town and the only one with the power to talk to the people any time he wants. Everyone’s been wonder where Obama’s been on this. August will be his month to show us. If he fails, he fails, but this is in his hands not Harry Reid’s.
Walter
Healthcare reform is dead.
Wow John, what a responsible post from a blogger, and we put the MSM down for…
NR
@Tim F.: We’re stuck with Baucus. Replacing him as committee chair would require a new organizing resolution, which would be subject to filibuster. 40 Republican votes plus Baucus’s vote equals 41 – the exact number needed to sustain it.
I think we have to look to the next election to deal with Baucus. I wouldn’t be unhappy to see both him and Reid get voted out, even if they were replaced by Republicans.
jenniebee
General Strike sounds good to me. The day Congress goes on recess, the rest of the country should, too.
Sasha
Either that, or the Senate will be hammered over the recess (personal appeals, op-eds,l grassroots campaigns, commericials, etc.) to ensure it gets passed first thing upon return.
lotus
What an amazing display of flimsiness here. Some of y’all really surprise me. WTF?
Get up in their grills all month, and let’s get ‘er done.
NR
@jenniebee: Yeah. That’s not gonna happen.
There just isn’t any kind of a nationwide movement for health care reform. Sure, 70% may say they want it when they’re polled about it, but it’s not something they’re going to get up off their asses about.
Most Americans have health insurance and are reasonably satisfied with their coverage. That’s why any reform effort is so tremendously difficult.
burnspbesq
@NR:
Schweitzer for Senate sounds awfully good to me. Where to I send my check?
gopher2b
@Tonal Crow:
WHOOP! WHOOP! Simple-minded prepackaged response to perceived GOP talking point alert. WHOOP WHOOP!
That’s not rationing. Idiot. That’s scarcity of supply – something that exists in every market.
When you externally control the price of any product (including healthcare) you have to control the supply through rationing. In this bill, the government will set the price of procedures by deciding what it will pay. Because the “public health plan” will be so large, the price will not be negotiable. This, plus the fact you are adding 40 million people to the system will increase demand. If you don’t increase supply you will have an inefficient market which will seek equilibrium.
The “rationing” will come in the form of doctors refusing to see patients in the public plan (as many do now with Medicaid and Medicare). Essentially you will have a public health system that looks a lot like education in this country: a shitty public one for the poor, middle and upper middle classes, and a shiny awesome one for the very wealthy.
NobodySpecial
Obama will now start whacking balls, beginning with a threat to call a special session during August to fuck them out of their recess.
Martin
The environment was different then. The economy in better shape, the industry a more useful player to consumers (faint praise), and the previous effort was flat-out poorly managed yielding a shitty proposal. Well intentioned, but shitty execution.
How would that help? If Congress is already having trouble with a bill that they wrote, why would they be any more receptive to one that they didn’t write and couldn’t sell to the voters back home. That’s part of what killed Clinton’s plan.
What happened in the 90s isn’t predictive of what will happen here given how things have gone so far. Things are quite a bit different, now, and you have some pretty big players quietly on the side of Obama. Legislation with a public option will flat-out save some manufacturing industries. And not even all of the insurers are fighting this. I have a C-level health insurance exec in my immediate family and we talk about this all the time. The non-profits in particular have some things to gain by helping this along if the plan helps contain costs – many are on the fence and just staying out of it, and they feel that the public option is a risk to the for-profits rather than the non-profits, so they may come out ahead here. I don’t think they had that attitude 20 years ago, but some seem to now. And they like Obama’s call for an independent agent to set reimbursement rates – that really helps keep Congress from gaming the system in favor of the public option (they really don’t trust Congress at all, and I’d say that the lack of an independent board is a deal-breaker for many in the industry). Consider that some of the non-profits see themselves as playing the role of the public option right now up against the for-profit insurers. They’re nervous about their business which is understandable, but their motives are very different from the for-profit guys.
TenguPhule
Come the revolution, it’s going to be hard to see the wall with all the pols lined up in front of it.
Napoleon
@Tim F.:
Tim F. said: “Also. Someone please explain to me how much power Reid has to give someone else Max Baucus’s committee chair. If he has that power then fuck Harry Reid. The failure is on his head.”
I think mid Congress you basically can not change except for very limited circumstances, and that includes if one party looses a majority. It is not the British parliment and once the lineup is set that is basically it.
(whoops – I see some one else covered it)
PeakVT
@gopher2b: They don’t want to write this bill because that’s considered one of the mistakes of Clintoncare. Presenting a complete bill gives the opposition a big target without forcing them to present a solution of their own, or not and look stupid. And – more importantly – it would irritate pissy pompous Senators who want to be the center of everything. So I think it was a reasonable decision.
General Winfield Stuck
Well, who doesn’t? It’s like predicting the weather in Death Valley. Hot and dry and your rarely wrong. The question is, do democrats, or enough of them, since they have a large majority, have a sense, when all the guffawing and fighting for local considerations (ie Blue dogs on medicare comp rates for their rural voters), that if this goes down, so goes down Obama and them ultimately, that they won’t in the end, pass a decent (ie strong PO/insurance reform) HC bill.
I think that self preservation of not exploding their base on something this critical will win out in the end. Every one of these nervous nellies knows that their fate is tied inexorably to the dem presnits fate. A powerful incentive when considering THE Marqui Issue of Obama.
But, on the other hand……..
Martin
Uh, no. When an insurer denies your claim or cancels your policy, that’s not scarcity of supply since the supply was presumed there right up to the moment that you needed it.
The doctor is there to provide the procedure. The hospital, nurses, equipment, followup, it’s all there – that’s the supply and we have plenty of it. The money has even been paid into the system by the customer per the contract (another part of the supply is in place), but Cigna or whoever refused to move the money to complete the transaction. That’s unquestionably rationing.
Bertie Wooster
Ok, getting past the initial shock. Upside is, Obama’s team can’t let this go – one shiv too many. Rahm will be scheming over the recess and working the crowd to decapitate Baucus. Reid probably loses his seat in 2010.
I would love to be a fly on the wall when Rahm rips both of them from neck to nave.
gypsy howell
Oh well. Maybe in another 30 or 40 years, we can give it another go.
We can blame Reid, but he’s always been a shiftless useless wanker. Why expect anything but the worst out of him?
I blame Obama for this. He should have been on my teevee every night for the last 4 months explaining why we need a single-payer plan. He admitted last night that was the only way we’d ever cover all Americans’ health care. He could have made that case And people would have been receptive. Then, the congresscritters, in a sop to their real constituents — the lobbyists — could have offered up some watered down version of it, but at least we’d have been starting from the right principle. I don’t think Obama ever made his case to the public, so there was never enough pressure on the republocrats to get anything done. Last night’s performance was OK — maybe a solid single or double — , but he would have had to hit a grand slam homerun to make up the score at this point in the game.
Instead, he let this debacle happen – he let douchebags like Baucus and the Blue Dogs frame the debate in republican terms.
kay
@Martin:
I hope you’re right, Martin. I just don’t agree.
Health insurers have what amounts to regional monopolies, it’s hugely profitable, and people have no goddamn choice, they take whatever their employer hands them and grovel in thanks.
lotus
Well, let’s see here . . . who’s the Senate Finance crowd holding everything up . . . a D from Montana, a D from North Dakota, a D from New Mexico, an R from Iowa, an R from Maine, an R from Wyoming.
Notice a pattern? Any big instate sources of money for those mopes? Nope. Gotta hit the Bigs: Pharma, Inshernz, HMOs, etc., etc.
Hadn’t we better raise the noise level?
maye
Purportedly Baucus and Grassley have a deal on co-ops. That’s the sticking point. The White House needs to make good use of the August recess.
A Mom Anon
@Martin:
Thank You Martin.
The insurance companies will even approve you to get something done and then once the bill is sent to them,they reject it and refuse to pay the doctor. I’ve had this happen to me twice with a crown and a bridge in my mouth,since fucking January. To the tune of nearly 7 grand that I don’t have. Two different companies because my husband went to a new job and they switched carriers after he’d been there a month. This isn’t just dental insurance doing this, my sister in law had to cough up thousands of dollars for tests that a neurologist ordered,the company approved them and then denied the coverage. If that isn’t rationing what the hell is? Good thing the government isn’t standing between us and our healthcare.
Monkey Faced Liberal
John:
Oh ye of little faith. It will happen. Mark my words.
Ruckus
All of us here want at least some form of improvement in our so called health care system. Many of us want total single payer, universal, non-socialist health care. That’s what I want and I think this country would be so much better with that, even if it was run poorly.
That being said this makes getting there or even taking steps to get there with a crappy bill much harder and much more unlikely. Politicians don’t like to change the status quo because it makes them responsible, which is what we want them to do, but that’s that last thing most of them want. This gives them the smallest, stupidest reason not to have to make a commitment, to put it off and find even more reasons not to vote for it. Some of those reasons probably have dollar signs on them but they are still reasons.
I fear for our country, it is declining rapidly into the sink hole of ever fewer haves and everyone else.
How much longer before everyone else is all there is?
mcc
This, plus the fact you are adding 40 million people to the system will increase demand. If you don’t increase supply you will have an inefficient market which will seek equilibrium.
Is supply not able to adjust to changing circumstances? Is supply even short, here? I keep hearing about doctors giving up medicine and becoming acupuncturists or IT professionals or whatever. You seem to be taking an economics 101 textbook model designed for like coal or something and applying it to a much more complicated situation.
Tonal Crow
@gopher2b:
It’s exactly “rationing”, with all of the inhumanity and none of the rationality: some people get good healthcare, and some get crap and then go bankrupt. We should guarantee a basic minimum of care, while permitting those who want more to buy it. And yeah, the basic care won’t include everything anyone could want. It’ll be rationed. Rationally. By evidence of effectiveness, not irrationally by ability to pay.
Idiot.
gypsy howell
If that isn’t rationing what the hell is?
That’s not rationing, that’s theft.
MikeN
Someone needs to get Anonymous involved. It’s come to that.
Tonal Crow
@gopher2b:
The rest of the western world has pretty darn good public healthcare, and shiny awesome care for the very wealthy. So? That’s better than our system of widespread e-room care and bankruptcy. And it’s less expensive. And it doesn’t depend upon your job, which makes it easier to use your skills most efficiently, rather than sticking with a suboptimal job because you fear losing coverage.
Michael
Remind me to sponsor a giveaway of maps to health/insurance CEO homes (together with courtesy firearms) to everyone who has a chronic illness who loses their insurance due to a job loss.
Scott
You’re not going to see any change at all from the Congressional Democrats until their fear of voters outweighs their greed for insurance company bribes.
Mike P
I’m actually gonna disagree with our esteemed host here. Much as I would have liked to have had the vote, the truth of the matter is that the legislation really isn’t settled yet, and by that I mean, I don’t think the Dems have squared the circle on things they do want in the bill, like certain cost control measures, for example.
Let’s be frank: another month or another six months or another year of debate won’t get more than two or three Republican senators and maybe a few more reps on board. The bill will not be bipartisan in terms of the votes, but might be in terms of what’s included (Rahm started to lay this groundwork a week or so again).
If we can really believe that Obama/Waxman/the Blue Dogs really did make progress on the MedPAC thing, then the votes are probably there in the house (it’ll be close, but Pelosi has been delivering).
The senate, of course, is an entirely different thing and so the goal should simply be to make sure that Nelson, etc. vote to support cloture. There are 51 Dems in the senate who will pass the bill, so it’s just a matter of getting it to the floor. Yes, a month is a long time for lobbyist to fill up the “moderates” coffers with cash, but it’s also a lot of time for POTUS and his allies to put these guys in a vice.
Calling it now…Obama’s going to get the senators to shut down an attempted fillibuster and the final bill will pass the senate with 55 votes, all Dem.
gnomedad
@gbear:
Shorter Cole: First!
Okay, maybe that’s unfair. John may yet be right, but this kind of stuff doesn’t help.
Michael
I participated in an awful push poll on health care, and ripped the pollster’s ass for it. The questions pretty much shoved participants into making statements that their insurance plans and local hospitals were all run by Mother Teresa.
Slaney Black
That’s what Clinton did. Which is why it failed. Which is why they tried the other way this time.
Where’d the Clinton bill fail? Senate Finance Committee. I shit you not. Never even got out for a floor vote; just died up Dan Moynihan’s ass.
Meanwhile, talking heads exploded about how the bill was “stalled” (where it was “inevitable” a couple months back) and it was a drastic miscalculation how they wrote the bill. Sound familiar?
hehindeed
It’s no surprise that a lot of people consider economics quackery when its loudest proponents are constantly asking some variation of the question, “Who are you going to believe, me or your own damned eyes?”
Health care is a perfect example because we actually have multiple real world examples of single-payer systems out there to study. France and Germany, in particular, manage to provide quality of care on par with the US, with comparable wait times, at something like 1/2 the cost.
Yet the amateur economists insist that “socialized” medicine will bring out this dystopian world of inadequate care and outrageous cost… because their two-variable Econ 101 formula says it must be so.
chopper
@some guy:
+1. people forget just how good the goopers are at killing these things and pushing public opinion. all they need is a little time.
used to be disgusted
I’m disappointed in the defeatism I hear on this thread. Come on, folks — that’s not the spirit of ’08.
Find things to do.
If you want to put pressure on Baucus, donate here:
actblue.com/page/pcccdfa_baucus_1?refcode=por_1-e-nonvoters-1
If you want to attend an event, go to DNC/OFA or MoveOn and find an event to attend.
Like a number of people have said, we need to spend August creating a massive public outcry. In fact, it seems likely to me that the whole notion of a “pre-recess deadline” was a bit of theater designed precisely to accomplish this — to give us a taste of how bad it would suck to lose on this, and then give us a bit of time to start rousing rabble.
donovong
Jesus fucking christ – what a bunch of sissy pants around here!!
OHMYGOD NOES WE HAVE TO WAIT THEY WILL KILL IT WE ARE ALL GOING TO FUCKING DIE!!!
As if Obama is going to just throw in the goddam towel aready. Give me a break.
John Cole, I never figured you for a WATB. Man up, dude.
ScreaminginAtlanta
It’s not over. There’s going to be a bill. I’m assuming a few people have said this, but I could only read about 1/4 of the comments. Buck up people. It gives the other side time to kill the bill, it gives us time to work for it. Call, write, donate. Two years ago nobody believed a black guy named Barack Obama would ever be president.
some guy
“As if Obama is going to just throw in the goddam towel aready. Give me a break.”
Yes, because he and Congressional Dems have such a marvelous track record of fighting tooth and nail for all the things they promised during the ’06 and ’08 campaigns. Ask the gay rights activists how that’s working out for them. Or the civil liberties activists. Or antiwar activists. Or…
Elie
I am totally with ScreamingAtlanta @ 107 —
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU ???
BOOHOOHOO – IT ISNT EASY AND WE HAVE TO WORK TO GET THIS DONE AND GOSH, THE RICH OWNERS OF AMERICA ARE FIGHTING THIS — SURPRISE!
We have to step away from our keyboards and do some grassroots, old fashioned phone calling, veiled threats and fund raising to send a message to these assholes..
I already have communicated with great affection with my local clueless representativeS and am going to pursue the other knuckleheads in my State with great persistence. I am encouraging my friends and relatives to write and phone the assholes’ offices and pester them to death. I suggest you do the same —
Get up off it and lets get AFTER it!
Mike P
I hear the OFA bus cranking up in the background folks…
In some ways, I bet Obama loves this because I think he’s going to get this bill done the same way he won the W.H. and that was by being better organized than his opponents. To get this bill passed, there really does have to be a groundswell from the public and I think this is where OFA is going to put fools up against the walls. Doors will be knocked on, ads will be cut, Obama will press down from above and the grassroots will push up and leave guys like Nelson no where to go.
Buck up people…we all knew this wasn’t going to be an easy fight, because if it was, it would have happened a long time ago.
As ScreaminginAtlanta said, even last fall, we didn’t think we’d elect a black man to the W.H. We did…and in big numbers.
Do your part and it can turn out differently this time.
KG
Seven months folks, seven fucking months. There’s a long ass way to go. And there’s nothing wrong with this thing not going through right away. It’s a major overhaul to a major part of the economy, it’s not the sort of thing that should be cobbled together just for the fucking sake of getting something – anything – done. That’s not good government. Now the legislators get to return home, they get to hear from their constituents, and they get some time to figure out the best way forward. If they fuck it up, well, there’s a midterm election in about 16 months where you can deal with many of them.
But please, for fuck’s sake, step back, take a deep breathe and realize this does not mean it’s over.
KG
Because it’s Congress’ job to write the laws, it’s the President’s job to enforce them. The last two administrations ran like this, and they aren’t exactly shining examples of what you want in the form of government.
ninerdave
This needed to be said again.
gopher2b
@Martin:
First of all, his example of rationing was “uninsured” people. You changed it to insured people.
And what you just described is rationing insurance – not healthcare. I hestitate to even call that rationing because what you have really described is a breach of contract.
Xenos
I’ve got it. Think of Fela Kuti’s Coffin for Head of State.
When the President had Fela’s house raided, and as a result Fela’s mother died, Fela held an elaborate funeral, and with a marching group of several thousand he delivered his mother’s coffin on the front steps of the Presidential Palace. As in ‘here- you did this, now try to deny it’.
It is not just a crime what is happened to our medical system. It is a moral outrage. When insurance executives have the same social standing as slave traders, then we will be able to block them from influencing congress. We need to win a moral and cultural war against these thieves and murderers. Then the political war will be a foregone conclusion.
Slaney Black
Really…has there ever been any mystery about what will come out of this? You’ll get an individual mandate to buy high-deductible insurance…some inadequate subsidies for the Poors…a pittance tossed at prevention…some token cost controls on Medicare…and maybe an broken by design not-for-profit alternative.
Seriously. That’s what it’ll be. Depending on the wording you could get 80 votes for it on the Senate floor right now.
The delay is just to make sure the token parts are as token as possible by killing any cross-winds and making us grateful for any scraps thrown our way.
The Moar You Know
@kay: I would like to throw in a word for the employer, because I am one.
We pay $250,000 – a quarter of a million dollars a year – to insure 35 people. We do pay the majority (85%) of the premium.
The amount that we pay for health insurance dwarfs every other expense we have – it equals the combined lease payments on ALL of our three East Coast offices. It is more, by a substantial margin, than our corporate income tax. It is eight times as much as our property tax. It is quite a bit more than what our CEO makes, as we are trying to survive, not flourish. Times are very rough right now.
The reason you take whatever we offer is because we can only change insurers once a year. We offer two choices, one more than most companies. Our employees are professionals who make a fair amount of money and we gladly offer the choice to keep them, but we won’t be able to much longer. The money isn’t there.
I am desperate for a public option, it would lighten our load enormously, but today spelled the end of that.
The employee, especially one working the typical McJob, is getting fucked on health care pretty hard right now. But keep this in mind – some of your employers may be getting fucked a lot harder, with no lube. Like I am.
General Winfield Stuck
I would, but they’re too busy listening to the sound of their own voices while holding up the sky.
gopher2b
@Tonal Crow:
Say Ration Rationally one more time. Perhaps if you repeat it enough times it will develop actual substantive meaning.
ScreaminginAtlanta
@used to be disgusted: Thanks for the link. I just donated my 2nd 50.00 to run ads in Baucus’ district. I’ve also emailed Harry Reid. Just while reading the comments. There’s a lot we can do.
mcc
Yes, because he and Congressional Dems have such a marvelous track record of fighting tooth and nail for all the things they promised during the ‘06 and ‘08 campaigns. Ask the gay rights activists how that’s working out for them.
Working out pretty great for us, actually. The hate crimes bill passed (as an amendment to the defense bill) last week and looks set to be law within another week or two. ENDA meanwhile is on track and I think they’ll be able to keep their promise of passing it by the end of the year.
Of course the big test for Obama and the Democrats will be what happens after that when DADT, the first really difficult item on the gay rights agenda, gets taken up, but so far the Democrats are keeping to the schedule they said they would in a vaguely unprecedented manner.
gnomedad
@The Moar You Know:
Thanks for sharing that. Very useful perspective.
lotus
Watch Obama in Cleveland today, and set your heads back on your shoulders. Sheesh.
Xecky Gilchrist
@gnomedad: John may yet be right, but this kind of stuff doesn’t help.
Agreed – John may be right, but at first I thought I was over at Sadly, No! reading one of Brad’s panic threads.
Tonal Crow
@gopher2b:
That’s a distinction without a difference. Unless you’re very rich, if your health insurance is rationed, your healthcare is rationed.
Same difference. Health insurance companies are cheating their policyholders and the public, both illegally (via actual breaches of contract or other applicable law) and “legally” (via, e.g., take-it-or-leave-it 50-page contracts of adhesion). The end result is that some people get good healthcare and some get ER care and bankruptcy. That’s irrational rationing.
gypsy howell
@The Moar You Know:
I don’t doubt what you say is true, but then why aren’t businesses lobbying hard for a single-payer system? Have you ever heard even ONE major CEO out there hawking for single-payer? GM execs preferred to flush their whole damn company down the drain rather than push for some social safety net changes that would have helped their bottom line. They’d rather go out of business than admit that singlepayer healthcare would have offloaded the retired workers benefits they despise so much from their bottom line.
Why isn’t single-payer universal healthcare the default pro-business position?
Yours notwithstanding, I have a hard time feeling bad for any business crying about health care costs. I’ve heard no hue and cry from them to fix it.
Tonal Crow
@The Moar You Know:
Please, please make sure that your representative, senators, Obama — and MoveOn, et al — know your circumstances. Yours is exactly the kind of story we need to personalize the debate, to move it from the abstract (which engages minds) to the concrete (which moves hearts).
Not if we keep fighting.
wilfred
C’mon. Clinton was war blustery against Korea and Biden was palling around with the Georgian Parliament pledging Homeland’s undying support; that was after he left Af calling for more sacrifice.
Implementing meaningful, game-changing social programs means needing a war. That’s the calculus of how we do things.
Th Great Society was a function of Vietnam. Health care is looking for its own war.
Tonal Crow
@gypsy howell:
Beats me. Probably leftover anticommunist angst, combined with a fear that the best employees would leave to start their own businesses once they’re no longer tied to their employers by healthcare chains.
America’s preoccupation with refighting the Cold War is exceedingly odd.
The Moar You Know
@gypsy howell: I can explain the “why” – really small businesses just don’t offer it and really big businesses can cram any terms they want down their insurers throats. It’s your small/medium business that needs skilled labor that is getting bled dry by the insurance companies.
@Tonal Crow: My representative is Darrell Issa. No help there.
My Senators are Boxer (who has done reasonably well on this) and Feinstein, who has not.
John S.
Corporations would NEVER do such a thing!
Like when Chase abruptly froze my HELOC because my house was no longer worth what they valued it at during the bubble. I checked the paperwork and there certainly was no provision in there that they could do what they did.
The free markets forced them to do it.
gopher2b
@Tonal Crow:
Next time I draft a complaint alleging a breach of contract I’ll replace “Count I: Breach of Contract” with “Count I: Illegally Rationing”. I’m curious how long the court will take before it sanctions me and dismisses the complaint.
Tsulagi
It began when they didn’t even start with single-payer on the table. Then continued down the rabbit hole chasing a handful of Republican votes with those guys happily exhorting the Dems to follow them. But no worries, they’ve kept their powder dry.
Now that’s a sunny forecast. Actually I think something will get passed and signed. Works for both parties to show voters they’re concerned with health care in America, while keeping their eye on the most important priority, elections.
For the midterms next year, Dems would then be able to say they got health care reform passed. Pubs would be claiming victory saying not only did they keep the evil majority from taking their guns, but also kept them from totally commiefying their health care. But the danger is still present. Expect commercials showing wolves hunting patients choosing their own doctors.
Of course, given the Dems vaunted sense of picking battles, concern for powder dryness, and fighting ability, I expect the bipartisan compromise Pubs would still condemn will be something along the lines of sternly worded voluntary health care reform legislation. The win afterwards will be if Dems don’t acquiesce to Pub demands they issue a resolution condemning themselves as soc ialism appeasers.
kay
@The Moar You Know:
I wasn’t trashing employers, although I have to ask why it took so long for larger employers, like GM, to figure out that they were getting reamed along with everyone else.
I know you’re taking what’s offered, like your employees, because what else are you going to do? I had to buy private insurance for a period of years and I did extensive research, and the difference between all of the wonderful choices amounted to 100 bucks +/- a month. This is a choice? The monthly premium was bigger than my mortgage payment, and it was bare-bones huge deductible.
I know no one can afford this. I know it’s broken. I just don’t think anyone has the will to fix it.
Chris Johnson
I’m not convinced that whatever the health care bill WAS, was going far enough. I’m betting it still made looooots of concessions to insurance companies, and came pre-crippled, and everybody’s acting like nothing else is imaginable.
This when the rest of the western world has no such illusions.
Personally, I’m just going to do my best to survive and assume I have no sort of health care at all, just as if I was in Somalia or something, and that if anything catastrophic happened I would be just as well dead. I seem to have less illusions about the United States of America than some of you.
FOR the rest of you, I think this is ‘kill all the insurance companies’ time, frankly. If they have really proved that they are more powerful than Congress, whip out your goddamn teabags and go to town.
The difference between a social anarchist and certain types of libertarian is, while you remain aware that amok government can do great harm, you are also aware that powerful, organized, private interests can be absolutely equally destructive. If the insurance companies were part of the government and doing what they do, would you be crying revolution? What exactly is the difference?
It’s like some birther thing. “Oh, they’re not a government, therefore you cannot declare war on them and hunt them in the streets”. Wake up. We cannot simply draw a bright line between government and private enterprise anymore. Seems like the next step is some serious reconnisance (sp) to work out specifically who has bought Congress, who specifically is calling the shots.
gopher2b
@Tonal Crow:
The problem with this country is (1) we are fat, unhealthy nation, and (2) we consume too much unnecessary healthcare. Nothing in this bill fixes those two problems. In fact, it exacerbates them by adding 40 million people to the system. It then keeps costs down by artificially lowering the price. Doctors are not just going to “go along” with it. They won’t.
A far better solution is a requiring everyone to get insurance with a substantial deductible. That way, if you drink corn syrup from the bottle and develop diabetes you have two options (a) stop eating Cheez-its for dinner and exercise, or (b) pay $2000-$5000 a year before your insurance kicks in. No one should die from a disease or condition because it costs $250,000 to cure and you don’t have insurance. And insurance should not be tied to your job (for all the obvious reasons). But giving everyone free healthcare does not solve the core problems with in this country.
Tonal Crow
@gopher2b: Nice misdirection. I don’t recall that we were discussing what a legal complaint needs to survive a demurrer/FRCP s.12(b)(6).
gopher2b
@Tonal Crow:
You said there was no difference between breach of contract and rationing. I was merely pointing out how little sense that makes.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
I’m in a very peculiar situation of “being careful what you wish for.” Ordinarily having people represent you that you trust to do the right thing sounds like a desireable situation, but now I don’t know.
I know as well as I know anything that my Congressman, Jim McDermott, and my senators, Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell, will vote the right way, so haranguing them about it won’t accomplish anything. Is it done to call somebody else’s Congressmen and Senators and chew them new ones?
Elie
The businesses ARE complaining and DO support reform. True, they are not as vocal about it as I would like, but there is no doubt that this is why we have made any progress at all.
We will have health care reform. There is no choice. The costs are going up exponentially and people need it. Many people who are normally Republican in their sentiments support change for health care — its the number one cause of financial distress and bankruptcy..
Yeah, the insurance companies are screaming but it won’t matter. Its going to happen anyway and we will get something maybe not perfect, but EVERYONE will ge covered and everyone will get care and the # 1 cause for bankruptcy will end.
Count on it
mcc
Oh hey, it’s those Republican talking points again. You know, the ones you’re whooping that you aren’t repeating.
“The problem is too many people getting health care” was exactly the argument Bush and McCain tried on this subject. Nobody bought it either time. Any argument that begins with that premise is a dead end, both practically and politically.
ScreaminginAtlanta
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge: I think it is done. I emailed Baucus and told him regardless of the fact that I’m not in his district, owing to the wonder of the internets, we can and will mobilize to replace him if he acts against the interests of the people. Same with Reid. Fuckers.
Elie
gopher2b:
You are ignorant. Period.
People do not consume too much health care. They get many times poor health care and get it too late rather than when prevention matters.
Our healthcare system is sucky at education for prevention and for nutritional management. Our system is designed to provide expensive treatment to bad disease once you get the disease.
Go read a little about health care before you spout off on your ignorant opinions.
By the way, I hope you never have the experience of some ignorant fuck telling YOU not to get care that you need — that you don’t have to sweat paying bills for your cancer treatment or for managing a disease that has no easy treatment.
Ignorant fucks like you help perpetuate our horrible situation. Maybe some day you will see through the lense of having to experience some of that powerlessness..
White House Department of Law (fmrly Jim-Bob)
Have faith. Barry’s gonna convene the Democratic Senators and pull a bullhorn moment: “With us or against us.”
This guy’s good. I even think he’s turned the easily distracted media’s heads away from the Ds internecine rift with the “Cambridge cops are stupid” fake controversy.
I’m not saying the guy’s a level-sixteen wizard, but I think he’s really good at sussing out how the press gaggle work, and has the gambler’s mentality to draw their fire.
Chill the fuck out, people, a health care bill is not dead. A delay is just that–a delay. And it gives Team Barry more time to strongarm fucks like Reid and Baucus–and it forces the Rs to actually come up with something other than Waterloo and euthanized grannies. And all the while, the pro-public option/single-payer crew will blanket the airwaves with shit like “Eric Cantor would rather vacation at his estate on Maryland’s Eastern Shore than ensure that working Americans have the health coverage they need.”
A setback? Sure. Obamageddon? No fucking way.
CaseyL
I just called Reid’s office, noted that I am not Nevadan, but that I am a Democrat, a citizen, and that my insurance right now is COBRA. I “thanked” Sen. Reid for killing HCR; the staffer pointed out that there’s no bill yet; I noted back that the longer the bill is delayed the more useless it’s going to be. I ended by asking the staffer to relay my statement to Reid that he tell the GOP to blow it out their ear.
I have no hope for HCR. I have no hope that Obama will fight for it, since everything he’s done so far has been subject to “compromising” with the GOP.
Between the coming HCR fiasco, the insufficient stimulus, and the broken promises on surveillance, transparency, and Gitmo, I’m feeling kind of sick to my stomach right now. Obama’s not going to be the Last Best Hope, he’s just going to be the Last Place Holder. We are all very very f*cked.
Anne Laurie
I’m totally hoping this turns out to be true. I’m also hoping the idiot Reps who think stalling will work out better for them than doing their godsdammed jobs will get set upon by every single one of their local business-owners, not to mention all the voters who’ve just discovered what ‘pre-existing condition’ means, and finally their local hospitals and medical centers. Because, as the cherry on the existing shite sundae that is the modern American health-care system, H1N1 flu is due for a major US repeat this Fall, and even if it stays as “low fatality” as the first wave last Spring, very sick patients are going to swamp our overburdened emergency system.
gopher2b
@mcc:
Yeah, except the Mayo Clinic agrees with me. But you try to end arguments by claiming someone is using Republican talking points so you must be correct.
Just Some Fuckhead
The reason most folks aren’t clamoring for single-payer is they don’t know what it is. I agree with the commenter who said failure of health care reform has to be laid at the feet of Obama. He wanted to take it on, he shoulda been out there every fucking day killing for it. My hideously republican co-worker completely supports single-payer because I took the time to explain it to her. Obama coulda been doing the same damn thing for the nation at large.
Tonal Crow
@gopher2b:
Enthusiastic “yes!”
Definitely a problem. But you missed at least (3) too many people are getting crappy healthcare at high prices; (4) businesses are saddled with ever-rising healthcare costs; and (5) employees hesitate to change jobs or start their own businesses because they fear losing healthcare.
Since when is it bad for someone who buys something to use her bargaining power to negotiate a price? Or is it bad only when “someone” is government, and the thing to be purchased is healthcare?
AMA Endorses House Democrats’ health care bill .
But that aside, this bill isn’t much to write home about. We’d do far better with a true single-payer system that guarantees a reasonable minimum level of care, emphasizes good health habits and preventive care, and allows anyone who can afford it to buy gold-plated coverage. The rest of the western world does very well with systems largely along these lines, and almost all of them have lower obesity rates than we do.
I expect this will do little to reduce obesity. The connection is too indirect, and the penalty takes too long in coming.
I agree.
It’s not “free”. We all pay for it, and all benefit from it. But I agree that single-payer, of itself, will not solve every healthcare problem. Just a few of the biggest ones. Then we can work on obesity, etc., too.
gopher2b
@Elie:
“WAAAHHHH!!! WAAAAAHHH!!! Someone disagrees with me I hope they get cancer.”
“Our healthcare system is sucky at education for prevention and for nutritional management. Our system is designed to provide expensive treatment to bad disease once you get the disease.
No shit. That’s what I’m fucking saying. Of course lowering the price of said procedures and making them available to 40 million people will certainly alleviate those deficicies in education for prevention and for nutritional management (i’m being sarcastic but I felt the need to explain it to you).
I know doctors that brag about how much they make off of unnecessary procedures. They give them because patients demand them, they are insured, and the doctors make money. Nurses (who don’t get paid by how many procedures they do) will tell you that people come to their clinics, hospitals for EVERY LITTLE THING if they are insured. AS A NATION, we consume too much healthcare and very few people search out cheaper alternatives to improving one’s health (like eating better and exercising). Nothing in this bill fixes that fundamental problem; it makes it worse.
whatsleft
“It is over” and this – <a href=”http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-july-21-2009/jon-stewart-jizz-ams-in-front-of-children—cap-n-trade”<this
are why we can’t have anything nice
gopher2b
@Tonal Crow:
“But you missed at least (3) too many people are getting crappy healthcare at high prices; (4) businesses are saddled with ever-rising healthcare costs; and (5) employees hesitate to change jobs or start their own businesses because they fear losing healthcare.”
For the record, I completely agree with you on these three and this bill does fix these problems. It makes zero sense to tie employment to insurance.
Tonal Crow
@gopher2b:
Whether a person is denied healthcare by a breach of contract, by rationing — or by 3-headed space aliens holding her hostage — usually makes little difference to her health. Her illness doesn’t know (or care) why.
Tax Analyst
“Elie
I am totally with ScreamingAtlanta @ 107—
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU ???
BOOHOOHOO – IT ISNT EASY AND WE HAVE TO WORK TO GET THIS DONE AND GOSH, THE RICH OWNERS OF AMERICA ARE FIGHTING THIS —SURPRISE!
We have to step away from our keyboards and do some grassroots, old fashioned phone calling, veiled threats and fund raising to send a message to these assholes..
I already have communicated with great affection with my local clueless representativeS and am going to pursue the other knuckleheads in my State with great persistence. I am encouraging my friends and relatives to write and phone the assholes’ offices and pester them to death. I suggest you do the same—
Get up off it and lets get AFTER it!”
Yes. I do believe that a bill will be passed before the end of 2009, and if the Senators are taking this extra time to actually look at what they are voting on maybe we will get a better bill (although past performance would probably tend to argue in the other direction). Obama will have to be aggressively persuasive and plain folks who want a Health Care bill are going to have to say so loudly and repeatedly, hopefully to their elected representatives, but also to other plain folk out there who may be swayed by the tsunami of negative BS that will surely be thrown out there by the GOP and it’s water-carriers.
It’s too early to give up and besides, unless you are a baseball fan (as I happen to be) what else do you have to do until Football Season? Are you all really going to collapse to the ground and do bad Scarlett O’Hara imitations until late September?
Tonal Crow
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:
Oh yes it is, at least in my household! And it’s also done to support progressive primary challengers!
ScreaminginAtlanta
This article had a calming effect (sorry I don’t know how to do HTML tags to block quote).
crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/bait-and-switch-public-option-no-sky
used to be disgusted
I honestly think that the “it’s ovah!” people are being played by the WH. Not that I mind — because it’s all for a good cause.
But think about it. What was the point of declaring the Aug deadline to begin with? Do you think Rahm Emmanuel really believed that announcing a “deadline “was an effective way to intimidate stubborn egomaniacal Senators?
No. The deadline was always for our benefit. The point was to create a sense of urgency. Clearly, it worked.
gnomedad
I’d like to hear the way you explained it to her, or a pointer to a comparable explanation. No snark. Most of the arguments for single-payer that I come across sound to me like preaching to the choir.
ScreaminginAtlanta
@used to be disgusted: Now that IS clever.
angler
C’mon everbody buck up. This is a marathon not a sprint. Progressive reform is just getting started. It’s not that different from the first Progressive era, 1900-1920 that got progressive income tax, direct election of senators, woman’s suffrage, child labor protection, regulation of the food and drug industries, an end to routinely calling out army to end strikes, and more. It will take twenty years and that’s what we’ve got a twenty year era of reform.
Healthcare now will be fantastic. Odds are against it, but at least it’s back on the table and finally the cursed Blue Dogs are taking some heat and getting light shined on their corruption.
I remember watching Clinton campaign for Mike Ross in 2000 and hoping he’d at least flip a GOP district. Ross did it. He sucks a foul slurry from the rump off diarrhetic bonobo, but he’s better than the Republican who would serve in his place. Meanwhile he’s falling on his sword for his funders and opening up phase two of this wave of reform–better Democrats, not just more. If there’s an upside to the potential defeat of Obama’s first term progressive agenda, it shines a light on the deep fucked uppedness of the system and maybe enables a stronger organization to knock off a few bad players (specter) in 2010. Some of these weasels might even welcome pressure from the left to enable them to act responsibly.
When the first “progressives” went at his in era 1900-1920, they had to first overthrow the hard right business Republicans led by McKinley (1893-1900) and then push out the centrist Teddy Roosevelt, suffer a set back with Taft before they got Wilson who for his time was pretty good.
It’ll happen this time, too. The problem is, a lot of us will dead by then and in the end the Wilsonian Democrats had plenty of warts (Jim Crow enabling among the worst). And for all of their complicity in blowing the opportunity, Reid and company deserve to smoke a habanero&turd corn cob in hell.
gopher2b
@Tonal Crow:
Technically its not free but there is no cost to the individual who wants treatment. I think that’s bad policy. And frankly, Obama agrees with me (how is that for egocentricity). Look at his tonsils example. The only difference is he puts it all on the doctor and thinks we can get (decreasing demand for medical procedures) by decreasing the doctor’s incentive to go straight to the procedure. I would like to include the patient in that calculus and the only way to do that is shifting some of the risk (i.e. cost) to him.
I respectfully disagree with your other point that the relationship is to indirect. With regard to it taking a long time, I totally agree. Unfortunately I do not see any quick fixes here. It took us 40 years to get into this mess, we’re not going to get out of it because Congress passed a magic bill.
Todd Dugdale
Obama should just veto any kind of half-assed, watered down legislation.
burnspbesq
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:
“Is it done to call somebody else’s Congressmen and Senators and chew them new ones?”
HELL YEAH! Start with Evan Bayh, Max Baucus, and Heath Shuler.
cleek
i told you so
Tonal Crow
@gopher2b:
There’s no (or a relatively small) point-of-service cost.
Well, “Obama agrees with me” rings up about 0.1 points (of 100) on my Persuade-O-Meter ™.
There are several ways to encourage patients to demand less unnecessary care. One to educate patients to know, e.g., that antibiotics don’t help colds. Another is to give doctors enough time with patients (by, e.g., reducing insurance paperwork) to explain probable diagnoses, risks, and benefits, rather than being so rushed that they just write a prescription and bolt. A third is to encourage doctors to push out appointments for what they believe to be unnecessary care. So, yeah, you can (eventually) get an MRI for your routine tennis injury, but it’ll take months. Meanwhile, it’ll probably get better, you’ll cancel the appointment, everyone will save money, and you’ll probably save the risk of some unnecessary treatment.
Finally, we can decrease unnecessary care by studying what works when, issuing guidelines, and requiring doctors to stick to them except when there’s a good reason not to do so. Yeah, that’s a form of rationing, but it’s empirically supportable, and much more humane than the “no money: no care” rationing that we currently have.
BTW, if you’re correct about patient incentives, why do we have more problems with unnecessary care than do most single-payer nations?
Just Some Fuckhead
@gnomedad: gnomedad, I just wore her down over a period of time by rebutting her typical socialism objections, explaining how my wife’s business struggles with healthcare (see: Moar), contrasting a government bureaucrat decided whether you live or die with a CEO’s profit bonus making that determination, explaining risk pools and how single-payer would be one giant risk pool everyone paid into out of their paycheck (like FICA) that would be more than covered by no longer having to pay hefty premiums to for-profit insurance company, blah blah blah.
mclaren
John Hamilton Farr remarked:
When I suggested that people do exactly that, the kooks and cranks and crackpots who comment on this website went berserk. They went ballistic. They spewed the most idiotic drivel I’ve heard since Spiro Agnew assured us “America is the greatest nation in the country.”
While we all know that the Republican Party is now made up entirely of loons, you fokls need to wake up and look around and realize that the Democratic Party is also made up largely of kooks. There are a few sane voices here and there among liberals, but by and large…you’re all hopeless. You’re a bunch of gibbering drooling cranks. Someone points out that we have never gotten real change in this country until millions of people come out onto the streets and start sit-downs and lie-downs and shut the government down, and what’s your response?
“Ooohhhhh, violence! Ooohhhh, bad bad bad!”
Wake up, halfwits. Even the most non-violent public protest will always always always be met with savage violence by the authorities. Grannies lie down in the street non-violently? The police will drive SWAT vans over ’em. Small children hand flowers to national guard soldiers? The national guard will open fire on the children with machine guns. Young girls join hands and sing “Cumbayah” in the halls of congress? The capitol police will spray ’em with napalm and set ’em on fire.
You people don’t seem to get it. The sadistic brutality of the typical mugger with a badge nowadays has escalated to the point where John Doe gets tasered and beaten and shot to death for not producing proof of insurance quickly enough. In today’s police state totalitarian environment where thug cops routinely taser grade school kids and grannies, you can bet your ass that any public protest, no matter how peaceful or non-violent, would be met with lethal levels of extreme violence by the cops and capitol police and national guard and secret service.
Well, if that’s what it takes, then let’s bring on the bloodbath. We need to do something. I’m not suggesting violence, but I am suggesting massive non-violent protests, and those will provoke extreme violence by the thugs and goons with badges.
You’d better be prepared for that. Otherwise, learn to like paying $64,000 a year for health insurance, then getting denied coverage because you have a pimple (“a pre-existing condition”). $64,000 a year for health insurance is over the top, right? A wild exaggeration, right?
Wait a few years. Health insurance costs are skyrocketing at 20% per year. That’s a doubling time of 3.5 years. If you pay $2000 a year for health insurance now, in 3.5 years you’ll pay $4000, 3.5 years after that you’ll pay $8000, 3.5 years after that you’ll pay $16,000, 3.5 years after that you’ll pay $32,000 a year, and 3.5 years after that you’ll pay $70,000 a year. Of course you won’t be able to pay $70,000 so you’ll be f%#@ed, stuck and out of luck, without insurance, and you’ll lose your house and your car and your bank account and everything you own if you get a severe case of the flu and have to be hospitalized.
You did it to yourselves. You ignorant incompetent deluded kooks became hysterical whenever someone suggested massive non-violent protests. That’s the only way anything really changes in this country. You’re going to have to shut the government down. Millions of people sitting down in the hallways of congress, millions of people lying down blocking the streets of Washington D.C., millions of people blocking the gates to the White House. The response will be savagely violent, riot-suited cops will march on the demonstrators spraying ’em with machine gun fire. Blood will run in the streets. That’s the whole point. By shownig their savagery, the authorities willd estroy their own moral legitimacy.
But there’s no other way than massive non-violent protests. All that crackpot crap about “revolution” won’t work, that’s the hallmark of impotent people without ideas. Massive non-violent protests mean bloodshed and death when the authorities react, but it’s the only option. Deal with it.
Viva BrisVegas
So much sturm und drang over what works and what doesn’t work.
FFS, the civilised world has been dealing with these issues for 50 years or more. Do you think that there might be something to be learned from out there?
Apart from the Republicans making up lies about the British and Canadian systems, has Congress actually spent more than 30 seconds examining how health systems outside America actually run?
Instead they are reinventing the wheel, and arguing over how many sides it should have.
Mr Furious
You fools. Obama won’t be all over the airwaves in August—he’ll be clearing brush in Crawford.
That’s the law, isn’t it?
Tonal Crow
@Viva BrisVegas:
Apparently not. We’re told that such systems are “off the table”. Bullsh*t they are.
More like arguing about how many angels should power it.
Anne Laurie
… Or at least cuffed and taken to the station for a few hours, until the “mugger with a badge”‘s supervisor drops the ‘tumultuous’ charge like a hot brick.
Dude, dial it back. You’re gonna give yourself a heart attack, and then the insurance companies will go all “preexisting condition” on your hyperventilating arse.
Et Tu Brutus?
Sorry kids, but read between the lines: we the general ( non-billionaire) citizenry are cattle to be milked, bilked, and slaughtered for profit by our corporate masters, particularly those masters who stand atop the heap- big pharma, big HMO’s, big manufactures of medical equipment, etc. No goddamn socialistic scheme to control ever rising medical costs will be allowed. Period.
parksideq
I pretty much skipped the comments, and maybe I’m posting because I’m tipsy from happy hour, but I refuse to have the public option fail without a fight. Granted, Schumer is my senator, but still, maybe he can convince Baucus that what’s good for him is good for America. Also.
pattonbt
Well, since I never expected substantive reform to happen anyway, this sign seems to fit in nicely with that belief. I still think “something” will pass soon, but I feel quite confident that that “something” will be at best a weak first step towards real reform or most likely pretty sucky and probably counter productive.
The ideology of the current crop of people running the show (politicians, media, helth care professionals, insurance companies, etc.) are simply unequipped to make reform happen. The political machine is not capable. We can not give the politicians enough money to counter the other vested interests and the current politicians are too isolated from the public and indoctrinated in the old political battlefield to take this issue with the seriousness and sobriety necessary. There is no reason for them to take on the risk, no repercussions.
I will repeat my belief that until BIG business starts paying and pressuring the political machine to alleviate them of the responsibility of health care, nothing substantive will get done.
I mean you can just see it in the way reform is discussed among the key players and see how far away we really are. There is not one serious rational discussion on health care and cost by any real player at the table.
So my bet is still on 2020 at the earliest for substantive reform, probably 2030. Im just happy that the conversation is finally starting to change. It may make a snail look like speedy gonzales, but its a start.
Sock puppet of the Great Satan
“I’m not saying the guy’s a level-sixteen wizard, but I think he’s really good at sussing out how the press gaggle work, and has the gambler’s mentality to draw their fire.”
I’d have said level eighteen Wizard myself. Pretty sure he made Rahm a scroll of Power Word Kill.
Church Lady
I think gopher2b is pretty much on the mark @ #79. I went in for a checkup recently and asked my internist what she thought about health care reform. She said something certainly needed to be done, but she wasn’t sure that a government run program was the way to go. Her practice stopped accepting Medicare and Medicaid patients three years ago. She said in most cases the reimbursement rates were less than the actual cost to treat the patient. She said that they grandfathered in the Medicare and Medicaid patients they already had and that patients with private insurance were helping to cover the costs of treating those with government insurance.
Beej
@Allan: Just tried to leave a message at Reid’s voice mail. Apparently the voice mailbox is full. God I hope so. I hope it is full of irate citizens who are telling this gutless quisling that it’s time for Congress to do a little of what the people want instead of what’s good for the pol’s pockets.
Church Lady
The Moar You Know, I share your pain. We’re insuring 19 employees (and their dependents) to the tune of a little over $10K per month. We pay 100% of the premiums. Other than total payroll, it’s our largest single monthly expense.
If business doesn’t improve or insurance premiums quit rising at 10% or more per year, we will have to start having employees pick up part of the tab. We’re just about to the breaking point on being able to pay the full freight.
Irony Abounds
Sadly if something does pass it will likely be a crappy bill that doesn’t guarantee universal coverage and doesn’t bring down costs. If we don’t bring down the cost of healthcare anything we do now is only a prelude to a disaster in about 10 years.
The solution seems very simple to me. Find a way to reward those who participate in a Mayo Clinic type arrangement – doctors and patients – so that there is significant incentive for doctors and patients to adopt and participate in that model. It would likely cut costs by at least 20%, it would make it so much easier to provide healthcare to all, and the future prospects of bankruptcy due to exploding healthcare costs would be averted. Of course, this will never happen because there are too many pigs at the heathcare trough who just want to get fatter. The single biggest problem is overtreatment, period. Unfortunately, the current system encourages overtreatment.
John may or may not be right about a bill being dead for this year, but I don’t think it matters.
Mister Papercut
This may be the point that I check out. If the GOP can obstruct on something so that is so monstrously out of control in the name of profit, and if the Dems roll over and play dead (yeah, I know, what’s this “if” shit?), then I might seriously see if I can’t cash in on being born in England yet.
I’m so goddamned depressed.
mclaren
Anne Laurie gibbered:
…when I pointed out that cops are so sadistic and so brutal today that they taser drivers for not providing proof of insurance fast enough.
Dial this back, Anne Laurie:
A man driving his elderly mother to Thanksgiving dinner was tased for not getting his license and insurance out fast enough.
Video included.
You don’t seem to have a grasp on reality, Anne. You’re living in a police state, and that juvenile delinquent classmate who used to get his kicks by setting puppies on fire in junior high school is now driving a police car and armed with a shotgun, a taser, and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock with a 15-round clip. And when he goes down to the firing range to re-qualify every 6 months, you know what he uses as a target?
A picture of a tree-hugging hippie at an anti-war protest. Wake the f%$# up!
Sarahsfrend
listen carefuly.
by now youshood know mr. coal wood never surender so eesily to our demands.
we have the dog.
send ransum money to princes of the north pac.
signd, the alaska freedom front.
p.s. do not send snark.
p.p.s. the cat was too big to carry.
Mike D.
Over? Really??
eir
@gopher2b:
as a health-care provider and scientist (in training), and someone who would much prefer to practice in a reformed system…
To the extent that “overconsumption” is a problem, it is largely a physician problem. A lot of docs have no decent understanding of statistics, specificity/sensitivity of a test v. cost, and of liability issues. It’s partly defensive medicine (somewhat justified; even if you practice in a state w/ tort reform, being sued is just incredibly demoralizing) and partly ignorance. People don’t tend to like going to the doctor and thus I don’t think overconsumption in that respect is a major money sink. However, patients do tend to get tests/scans ordered by their doctor (unless they know before the fact that their insurance won’t pay, which they frequently do not), and those tests are frequently unnecessary. Both doctors and patients need to be educated – emphasizing the morbidity from false positives would be a great motivator, I think.
Fat and unhealthy, I will give you.
ksmiami
May I humbly suggest that we all calm down, lead healthy lives, teach our children the same and then fly to Thailand for vacations and less costly medical treatments. Also, lets get the goddamn pharma ads off television.
Look, Kaiser Permanente is a non-profit with fairly decent plans available and studies have shown that medicine (above basic immunizations and preventive care) only accounts for 10% of the reasons why people lead long lives. The other factors; genetics, diet, sanitation and the like are WAAAAAY more important. Somehow in this country and thanks to the AMA we look at Doctors like gods and we have very high expectations of what medicine can do. I am happy that there is a lot of innovation, but we have not had the kinds of discussions that an adult nation needs to have about what constitutes the right amount of care – should 85 year olds in bad health get heart surgery (true story). What is life? etc., etc.,
Anyway, there are tough choices to be made and I am not sure that rushing a bill is the right approach. I think you get basic care levels for every citizen and then piecemeal the other stuff… In other words, except for a few like Obama and Franken, I am not sure the morons and whores in congress are even up to the task of establishing a national health care system. It has to come from the states and local innovations in managing care. ..
Original Lee
@Martin: Exactly. Three anecdotes to add:
One of my kids needed to have ear tubes. Essentially, this child had one continuous ear infection for A YEAR. The pediatrician finally said, OK, we are past all of the requirements for getting this done with paid insurance, here’s the number for a pediatric ENT. We went to the ENT, the ENT said, yeah, definitely needs ear tubes, we expect it will take about a month to get a pre-cert from the insurance company, and we’ll schedule you then. So after a month I called up, no pre-cert yet. I called the insurance company, they claimed to have lost the paperwork. I said, fuck this shit, I called up an ENT who is a colleague of my neighbor’s, he saw the kid the next day and scheduled surgery for 3 days after that. He asked for our insurance card, I gave it to him but said I’d rather pay out of pocket in monthly installments and explained about the lack of pre-cert. He agreed to let us pay him $30/month, we had the surgery, everybody was terrific, my kid’s hearing was saved. His office submitted the paperwork to the insurance company anyway, and the goddamned insurance company paid for everything EXCEPT the anesthesiologist. Fine, it’s better than what we would have gotten with a pre-cert.
So roll along a few years, and one of the kids is getting notes from the teacher about not being able to glue properly. I’m all WTF? until the teacher explains that said child is having problems with squeezing the bottle and that maybe there’s a neurological issue. OK, fine, we jump through all the hoops to find a pediatric neuropsychologist in the plan, get an appointment for 6 months later, and after the initial visit, the guy wants a full battery of a certain kind of test that costs $1500. He won’t do it without a pre-cert, so I work with the office manager and the insurance company to get the pre-cert. The insurance company agrees to pay $1000 of this test. We have the test. The insurance company only pays $300. For months, we are on the phone with the insurance company and the psych guy’s office manager trying to get the insurance company to cough up the remaining $700. Finally, they cough up $400, but that’s it. Because the testing only revealed a slight case of dyspraxia in the hands (mostly fixed by 6 months of PT, which they paid for), as opposed to any of the other horrible stuff that test is used for, the insurance company argued that the full battery was not necessary, therefore they would only pay half minus the copay.
Then I have a friend who was helping out with a horse show event, and a horse (with rider still on board) essentially fell on top of her after crashing a jump. They MediVac’ed her to the nearest trauma center, and she had sufficiently bad injuries that she could not return to work for almost 6 months. Two years later, she is still arguing with the insurance company about paying for the helicopter, because she’s fine now, so obviously the helicopter was not necessary.
I don’t think nonprofit insurance companies are the answer, because they’ll figure a way to screw out amazing bennies for themselves. If we’re doing anything to the insurance companies besides outcompeting them with the public option, we should reregulate them so hard they can’t walk.
Actually, in a poetic justice kind of way, I think instead of taxing businesses to pay for the public option, we should tax the insurance companies instead (except I know it will somehow come back to us anyway, but it’s a nice thought). And if Europe is any example, if we go completely soci alist, plenty of people will still buy private insurance coverage to give themselves an edge.
Nathanael
Encouragement?
The House bill is stronger, the House has people pushing to make it even stronger, the House is ready and in a hurry, Pelosi is ready, and the Senate…. well, maybe they will just have to take the House bill.
That would be good. :-)
angler
A new day and some sober optimism. See Ezra Klein:
voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/
Original Lee
@The Moar You Know: Send this to your Congressional delegation and have your employees call in, too. Send registered letters as well as e-mail. Go to Kinko’s and make up a banner to string up next to your logo: This business wants the public option now, Congress!
I am not a business owner, but I’m doing some of these things today and on Monday.
lolcat
ROFL @ those saying the vietnam war protesters had “no effect”. Really? REALLY? Sorry, that’s fucking crazy.