I guess this is the natural sequel to all the Trig truth-squadding:
But why are we supposed to rely on the testimony of Dr Fukino, whom I believe entirely. It is not my job as a journalist or yours as a citizen to take public officials on trust. They are not to be trusted, whoever they are. It is our job to demand all the evidence we want or need. I know the electronic record is legit. I have no doubt that Obama has every constitutional right to be president. I think the Birthers are nuts. But there is no reason on earth that the original cannot be retrieved and shown. Jon Klein and CNN were wrong, and I retract my apology of yesterday.
I still like Sully’s blog. But I do find it interesting that the blogger who has the most cred with the old media is one of the most batshit crazy major bloggers (I almost just said “the most”, but then I remembered Malkin and a few others).
eric k
I kind of suspect that Sully is going so hard on this to make his Palin’s obsession not look so bad. He can say “see I’m consistent about this kind of thing”
schrodinger's cat
Shorter Sullivan
I iz on Ur intertoobs being an idiot.
Hunter Gathers
Well, I guess being a conservative drives you insane eventually.
Rick Massimo
That’s gotta be snark.
“But why are we supposed to rely on the testimony of Dr Fukino, whom I believe entirely.”
Come on. That’s gotta snarking on Loud “I’m just reporting the controversy” Obbs.
Hunter Gathers
I demand to see Sully’s birth certificate. How are we to know he’s actually English? That accent doesn’t fool me.
Common Sense
This has absolutely nothing to do with birthers (a topic I am utterly bored with).
A lab at MIT has connected a webcam, cellphone, portable battery, and motion finger detectors to make a portable information device that only costs $350 with all parts purchased separately at retail cost. I remember seeing MS’s Surface a few years back (she talks about it a bit) and it was sweet looking, but this takes the cake for coolness.
The device projects on to any surface and can also use image recognition software to recognize and analyze what you are seeing. You take a picture by making a square with your fingers. You check the time by drawing a watch on your wrist. When you go to the grocery store, it can recognize the product you pick up and then project information about it. When you pick up a newspaper it projects a current feed of news onto the page, including video if applicable. When you meet a stranger it tells you information about them.
I know there’s a lot of tech geeks on BJ so I apologize if others have linked this. I just thought it was freaking sweet and much more interesting than Andrew Sullivan. Welcome back, Sully! I thought your standins were bad. Little did I know….
Calouste
Wasn’t the reason the original can’t be retrieved and shown because the state of Hawai’i destroyed all the old paper records when they digitized them? So they wouldn’t waste tax payers’ money on storing a pile of paper that no one ever looks at?
JimF
Notice the doctor said vitals, not birth certificate. Chances are what he was talking about is the record of the patient’s, Obama’s Mother, vital signs during the birth.
The Grand Panjandrum
Sully is trying to split a few too many hairs with this one in much the same way he did with Trig’s birth and the entire IQ “controversy.” Pretty tedious shit and I’ve cut way back on my consumption of his blog. Too bad, he’s a bright guy. I wonder if he realizes how much like Lou Dobbs he sounds in that post?
Linkmeister
Is he now saying he doesn’t trust, say, the Department of Labor and its monthly statistics because public officials publish them?
At some point, even as a journalist (which he’s not, if the term means “fact gatherer and reporter”) you have to ask yourself “is there any reason why this public official would lie?”
MikeJ
I’m off to go tour DDG-92. I hope they accept a dirver’s license for ID and don’t ask me for the original vault copy of my certificate of live mulsimitude.
Jen R
God damn it.
Here’s your reason: because Obama has already produced legally valid evidence that he was born in Honolulu, and if that’s not good enough for some people, that’s their problem, not his. Nothing will ever be good enough for those people, so why jump through their hoops?
cleek
I wonder if he realizes how much like Lou Dobbs he sounds in that post?
i doubt it.
IFAIK, he’s been pretty consistent about bad-mouthing the birfers. i think he just got sloppy here and slipped into birfer territory while trying to push his ‘transparency’ gripe – which is a valid gripe, since Obama did tell us all he’d be more transparent; yet except for the release of a few torture memos, he really hasn’t been all that forthcoming with info.
Zifnab
@eric k: If by “consistent” you mean “certifiable”.
I’m tired of hearing people announce that they’ll “just be happy as soon as they see the birth certificate”. Either they have made no effort whatsoever to ascertain the veracity of the claims or they refuse to believe everyone from Hawaiian state officials to dated local newspapers.
You can only debunk a story so many times before you’re just wasting your breath.
I mean, shit, if the same guy that believes the John Kerry Swift Boaters story disbelieves the Obama birth certificate… whatchagonna do?
Josh E.
Sully jumped the shark with his “Decadent enclaves on the coast” comment back in 2001. And before that with the Bell Curve. Upon reflection, it’s hard to say that there was a time when Sullivan was in public life that he hadn’t already jumped the shark.
Once he inevitably becomes disenchanted with Obama, probably in a year or two, he’ll be posting all kinds of crazy shit about him.
donovong
I sent Sully an email after this,asking WTF? and suggesting he take another vacation and get some rest this time. He is going around the bend again – Trig Part Deux.
rock
So…I’m confused. Is there an original paper certificate still in existence or not?
If so, they probably should release it in order to stop the madness. It’s obnoxious that the de facto legal standard for proving citizenship then becomes higher for Obama than, say, anyone else I can think of. But you have to start worrying about the results of allowing the birther movement to ramp up.
If there is no original in existence, the electronic version (which constitutes legal proof of being born in America as I understand it) should be enough. It should be enough anyway.
Really though, I know liberals are the real fascists and all but I find the focus on having your papers in order to be ridiculous.
jwb
@Linkmeister
Haven’t you seen the Obama Death List? Clearly, poor Dr. Fukino can’t be trusted for fear of ending up a victim. /wingnut conspiracy
On a more basic level, Sully needs to determine that Obama’s record is being treated differently than others in Hawaii before he runs his mouth off accusing Obama of lacking transparency on the issue. The article he links to certainly doesn’t establish that.
wilfred
For Birthers, no proof is sufficient. Anytime they are faced with a contradiction or refutation they just invent more narrative (Think Catholic Church and Limbo).
I stopped asking why Cole et al. continued to pay any attention to this 10 pounds of shit in a 5 five pound bag wankaphone.
WMass
How many fucking times do we have to say it: Hawaii went to digital records years ago and trashed the paper originals.
And there is something else ridiculously fucking stupid about the Birther bullshit. According to these brain dead morons, there has been a vast left-wing conspiracy going on for more than 40 years, involving powerful people at all levels of government, many of whom are pretty rich. Has it really not occurred to these fucktards that a conspiracy of this range and depth can’t simply forge a birth certificate? I could forge one easily, and I’m just some poor dipshit.
And no offense to DougJ, but can we please put the last nail in the coffin of Sullivan’s blog. Seriously, how many times does he have to say incredibly fucking stupid things before we stop paying attention to him.
Pete
Sully’s been on a real anti-Obama bent since his hiatus last week, like he went to some conservative/glibertarian reconditioning camp or something.
It’s annoying, because 90% of his blog is worth a read, but this past few days has been so full of bile, snark and intemperance that it’s getting a chore to read. Which is a shame.
Napoleon
@Calouste:
Calouste said: “Wasn’t the reason the original can’t be retrieved and shown because the state of Hawai’i destroyed all the old paper records when they digitized them?”
One thing is there is no such thing as an original birth certificate, everything is kept on an index. They may have digitalized the index (and Hawaii has said it does not keep the records on paper).
This whole (non)issue is insane.
gizmo
The relevant question for the birthnuts is– Why weren’t you asking to see G.W. Bush’s birth certificate?
The Grand Panjandrum
Jesus how about an open thread so we can discuss whether or not we think Michael Vick should get a second chance at playing pro ball. It would at least be moderately interesting and not so fucking tedious it makes my hair HURT!
Trinity
@donovong: I sent him an email too. He’s off the rails. He can see homophobia a mile a way but not racism. What an extraordinary douchebag.
mistermix
Here’s the part of Sully’s post that kills me:
WTF does Obama have to do with the birth certificate policies of Hawaii, and why the hell is this minor issue lumped in with the deficit and Iraq?
Hunter Gathers
@Josh E.: “Once he inevitably becomes disenchanted with Obama, probably in a year or two, he’ll be posting all kinds of crazy shit about him.”
He has already given up. But did you really expect a conservative to stay on Obama’s side more than six months?
Conservatism is a mental disorder that causes the victim to see conspiracy and failure around every corner.
southpaw
If I can’t see the vault copy of my own birth records, why should I be able to see Barack Obama’s?
The whole thing does bring to mind Bill Broussard in JFK:
SadieSue
Sadie needs another cookie
J.W. Hamner
He’s clearly overcompensating, and I think he must feel he is being “fair and balanced” by going all nuts for the “other side” with this. It seems to have led to his having trouble telling the difference between legitimately demanded transparency by public officials and legitimizing the insane beliefs of whackjobs.
Ella in NM
Yeah, when I saw that post on Andrew’s site I wanted to reach out and throttle him (verbally,of course!), but thanks to his “electronic moat”, I had to settle for sending a strongly-worded, sarcastic email entitled “Oh for the Love of God We’re in Birth Certificate Hell” to Ivory Tower boy.
Poor guy. His idyllic summer by the sea turned into weeks of freezing rain and wiping up his own poop, so I guess I will cut him some slack for now.
IndieTarheel
@Calouste: From the Starbulletin…
There you go…
Ella in NM
@J.W. Hamner:
Cat Lady
Apparently Rush has backed off mentioning the birf cert since Obbs got hammered by as many on the right as on the left. CNN should have had Loud Obbs be carted away by the guys in white suits with butterfly nets right on the air in the middle of his show. It would have accomplished (1) great TV and ratings for them; (2) put any other TV birther loons on notice that they might be next; and (3) shut down the idiotic arguments Sully insists he’s not promoting, once and for all.
Axe Diesel Palin
I thought Hawaii announced that the original was destroyed when the state went to all electronic records. How does he expect them to produce an original?
A bigger question is as more and more paper doucments move to electornic only are we going to have these witch hunts over and over because soon there will be no paper originals for anything.
Hunter Gathers
@The Grand Panjandrum: Actually, that’s good idea. I don’t think that any team in the league will touch him, but the NFL has it’s own way of doing business. The only suitors I could imagine would be Belicheck, just to give everyone else in the league the finger, or the Raiders, because they are the Raiders.
Napoleon
@JimF:
JimF said: “Notice the doctor said vitals, not birth certificate.”
What he was refering to was shorthand for Vital Statistics. That is where birth and death records are kept, in the states Vital Statistic compilation. My own “certificate of live birth” specifically mentions at the top “Ohio Department of Health, Department of Vital Statistics”.
mlm
If nobody can ever be trusted, then no documents that anybody creates can be trusted either!
Ash Can
@wilfred: Even the Catholic Church has come around on limbo. The birthers, on the other hand, will never relent.
Steve V
@rock:
The point is, it does not matter if there is still a long-form birth certificate on file somewhere or not. For all legal intents and purposes the COLB is Obama’s birth certificate. It is the end of the inquiry. The only people who don’t understand that are the birthers and obtuse concern trolls who are easily distracted by shiny things, which apparently now includes Sullivan.
The birthers claim that they want to see more detail, like the hospital or the doctor’s name or whatever, but that’s just a nonsensical rationalization to continue being idiots. At bottom, if you think the COLB can be faked somehow then you will believe with equal ardor that the “original” can be, and is, faked too.
Nim, ham hock of liberty
And that’s why no evidence will satisfy them. Even if some document was produced that Hawaii said was the really real, honest “original,” birther forensic “experts” would be posting 20,000-word analyses within hours, proving it was a forgery, because of the kerning, and the heat signature of the embossed seal, and clearly, the edges aren’t worn enough for a document that old, and the inverse flux-capacity matrix of the paper fiber proves that it was made from a KENYAN TREE!!!!
Brachiator
@rock:
Who, exactly, would they release it to? Short of putting it under glass and delivering it to every birther’s house for personal inspection, accompanied by an official from the state of Hawaii, what would satisfy the hopeless birther that he or she has validated the actual document?
And since the only people questioning Obama’s legitimacy are fools and charlatans, playing along false gives them credibility — and encourages them to new and more outrageous fantasies that would have to be dealt with.
El Cid
Original (hard copy) birth certificates are and should continue to be released only to those immediate family members who are legally entitled to receive them.
No variety of ‘journalists’ or right wing shitbags are entitled to Obama’s ‘original’ birth certificate any more than they are entitled to see his original Social Security card or his original ATM card and PIN # or his children’s diaries for that matter.
El Cid
By the way, people are routinely sent to prison based on physical evidence which you the public never get to touch or handle, either. You rely on a court reporter or published testimony.
Just Some Fuckhead
First he came for Trig’s birth certificate. I did not speak out because I like a salacious story. Then he came for Obama’s birth certificate. I remained silent because I’m sick of the birther nonsense. Then he came for my birth certificate and I kicked his fat pooftah ass, cuz like I said, I’m sick of the birther nonsense.
– a poem by Fuckhead
Trinity
@El Cid: Yes.
jwb
@rock
“So…I’m confused. Is there an original paper certificate still in existence or not?”
It’s unclear. In the article, Fukino is quoted as saying there are paper records (that’s Sully’s smoking gun, I guess), but it’s not clear what those paper records consist of (I suspect that they are just logs of vital statistics kept around in case there are errors in the electronic files). For that matter, it’s not clear what was originally in the paper records before they were transferred to computer. I’m guessing that the certificate of live birth that Obama has already released is and always has been the only “official” paper that the state can issue and they may even be prohibited by law from releasing the information in any other form—though if that is true I wish one of the public officials of Hawaii would just come out and say that.
Hunter Gathers
Why do I get the feeling that the majority of white people in this country have gone bonkers? Sully’s not even from here and the White Man’s Burden has overtaken him.
jacy
I usually enjoy reading Sullivan, but I may take some time off stopping by there for a while. Reading that today made me want to hit him with a shovel. Even if you produced a time machine and took the birthers back to witness Obama’s birth live in Hawai’i, that still wouldn’t be proof enough. There is no proof that will ever be enough. Never. Ever.
Giving any credence to their request is like trying to reason with the guy who sits out in front of the public library wearing a pith helmet and galoshes and eating jello with his hands.
Pah. Enough already.
The Other Steve
Where are you supposed to get this original?
I have mine, it was given to me by my parents.
But my son, his birth certificate looks like Obama’s. It says Certificate of Live Birth.
The Moar You Know
Mystery solved; Brick Oven Bill is Andrew Sullivan.
Hacienda
I read Sully regularly, and he’s written some fantastic posts on marriage equality, religion, and torture, and he was one of the handful of journalists/commentators to pay attention to the early days of the Iranian election fallout when the MSM was ignoring the story.
But shit like this and the obsession with Trig’s ‘real mother’ drives me batshit insane, and I can’t fathom how somebody who is, for the most part, a sane and intelligent guy, can post such drivel.
Dave C
It seems to me that Sullivan has been unusually petulant today. This is not the only example.
steve s
from the USA Today story Sully links:
Morbo
Consider this hypothetical headline: Obama asks Hawaii to turn over birth certificate.
Hypothetical wingnut reaction: Socialist Obama is trampling on States’ rights!!!!!!1!
dmsilev
And to add to the fun, birther-in-chief Orly Taitz has said that even if Obama jumps through all the arbitrary and bizarre hoops that she’s declared he needs to jump through re: the birth certificate, she still wouldn’t be satisfied that he is eligible to be President, on account of his father not being a US citizen.
The birthers are just playing grand-scale Calvinball, and nobody should even try to satisfy any of their demands. Just sit back, laugh, and occasionally wave a copy of the certificate that the Obama campaign released last year. And buy stock in Alcoa (tinfoil hat production predicted to be way up this year…)
-dms
Hunter Gathers
@The Moar You Know: You win.
CapMidnight
@Common Sense:
More than Sully learns by sniffing dogs’ butts?
SrirachaHotSauce
Actually, there is. It’s called State of Hawaii law.
“Vital records (birth, death, marriage, and divorce certificates) for events that occurred in Hawaii are received and preserved by the Office of Health Status Monitoring, a unit of the Department of Health. In Hawaii, access to vital records is restricted by statute (HRS §338-18).”
Only certified copies may be retreived. In the subject case, this step has already been taken.
Dusty
Even if they admit that Obama was born in Hawaii, there’ll be another angle, like Taitz’s dual-citizenship theory. Or that he somehow renounced his citizenship when he enrolled in school in Indonesia. Maybe ACORN and Bill Ayers rigged the election with funding from George Soros. They’ll find something to bitch about.
SrirachaHotSauce
@The Moar You Know:
DougJ is Andrew Sullivan?
SrirachaHotSauce
@The Other Steve:
You have the original piece of paper?
Is it an official record, or one of those hospital souvenir versions given to the parents at the time the real certificate is filled out and submitted to the vital records office?
Generally the official original is preserved by the vital records office, either in its original paper form or in an imaged form.
asiangrrlMN
Sorry, but I come down on the side of snark (and I’m not a big Sully fan). It’s sad, though, that it’s hard to tell snark from authenticity.
CapMidnight
Yeah, but let’s do it anyway. The birthers would now all be ninety plus years old, an droppin like flies.
Zach
As noted in the first post, the only reason he’s doing this is to justify his equally misplaced concern over Sarah Palin’s son.
kay
@SrirachaHotSauce:
Because they know, in Hawaii, how to satisfy a document request, and even if Orly Tavitz and Andrew Sullivan want to go snooping around in Vital Records, well, tough shit, they can’t.
There’s a strong federal law that protects medical records, too, thank god, to protect us all from Andrew Sullivan.
Michael
OT, but another awesome display of cop heroism.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-28-alabama-taser_N.htm
angulimala
But …. but …. but … but an 80+ year old woman, with lots of Kenyan-born grandchildren, said that she remembered seeing Obama born in Kenya.
We all know that old people never suffer any problems with memory and that grandparents with lots of grandkids never mistake one for another in 40+ year old memories. Memories are like cheese. They only get sharper with age.
There is just no question that a single retracted statement from an 80+ year old woman with lots of Kenyan born grandkids should be given priority over official state records. It makes sense to me.
Hunter Gathers
@asiangrrlMN: It’s not snark. Sully is pissed off at Obama for not pushing DADT and DOMA reversal as hard as he would like. And for not balancing the budget. Or withdrawing completely from Iraq by now. He’s pitching a fit because he has no patience.
Senyordave
I believe that all birthers are on David Axelrod’s payroll. Because if I’m Axelrod I thank God everyday for birthers.
El Cid
I demand to see the original vault copy version of Hawaii’s admission to the United States. If that is not personally delivered for me to touch, then Hawaii is a strange land isolated in the Pacific Ocean.
CapMidnight
I accept the birth certificate.
However, I’ve seen no proof that black guy in the Oval Office is really Barack Obama.
The Grand Panjandrum
@Hunter Gathers: That would be a shame if Vick didn’t get another shot. The league has a few convicted wife/gf beaters and IIRC someone convicted of vehicular homicide. The league isn’t setting a precedent by letting him play. If anything they would be treating him unfairly if he is singled out. He’s paid his debt and has apparently cleaned up his act so I say give the man a shot. He’s one hell of a ball player.
angulimala
Michael
Being deaf is no excuse not to listen to the police.
SrirachaHotSauce
@CapMidnight:
LOL.
I’m stealing that.
Xenos
Do we really know whether Sullivan is HIV+ ? I mean, he could be faking it, and selling all the drugs his insurance is paying for on the black market. Meanwhile he makes a living arguing against a public health program that would destroy the black market for his drugs.
I demand that Sullivan release his entire medical history to me. Why no transparency, dammit?
Cufford
While I originally found Sully’s blog to be somewhat entertaining (when I first stumbled on it), I didn’t stick around for long as his pompus arrogance (is that redundant?) about so many things just got under my skin.
He’s smart, but a friggen nutcase.
Warren Terra
CapMidnight FTW!
Although, once again, the distinction between parody and reality will probably fade …
Senyordave
@asiangrrlMN: It’s not snark. Sully is pissed off at Obama for not pushing DADT and DOMA reversal as hard as he would like.
Obama has no excuses on DADT. The Democrats are total dicks on the issue, but this is a time when Obama tell them he expects a bill out of comittee by … If they won’t, then call a press conference, because its probably the most glaring example of expensive bigotry that I can see in this country. We’re kicking out valuable members of the military (including some of our best Arabic translators) because some bigoted senator from Georgia or Oklahoma is afraid that a soldier might be (hushed whispers), a homosexual?
ET
People have seen the original with all the official stuff and reported on what they saw. That is not good enough for the birthers. So basically the White House and specifically Obama should have Hawaii make millions of copies of the birth certificate (with the embossing) mailed directly from the state to every citizen of the United States so as to make it that everyone could see this is a bunch of crap?
Ugh
@Grand Panjandrum: No one will touch Vick because there will be a horde of PETA protestors carrying large graphic posters of mauled dogs outside each and every game. It will be the biggest story for the week at each away game. Everyone on the team will be asked about nothing else the whole season. And for what? A 3rd string Q-Back?
jwb
CapMidnight
Genius.
Hunter Gathers
@The Grand Panjandrum: I don’t think he can be an effective passer in the league anymore. He was always more of a running QB than a passer, and you would have to design your offensive scheme completely around him and that’s a lot to ask of an orginization. And he’s been away from the game for 2 years. If he has a future, it’s at another position, probaby some sort of HB/WR hybrid, maybe running the Wildcat for about 5 plays a game.
Brachiator
@dmsilev:
I mentioned it in another thread, and it bears repeating here, that nothing can satisfy the birthers, who will only escalate their crazy claims because they are not trying to prove anything about Obama, but are simply manifesting their political hysteria and racial paranoia.
Ironically, we have been here before in a way, with Chester A. Arthur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_A_Arthur
Obama gains nothing by producing his birth certificate because there is no factual issue to be proved or resolved. And no matter what he does, the nuttiest of the wingnuts will produce some new outrageous claim revolving around the theme of Obama’s lack of legitimacy to be president or his aristocratic stealth Muslim terrorist hatred of America.
In fact, we may already have it in Glen Beck’s assertion that Obama is a racist who hates either white people or white culture or something white. Maybe Whitey Ford.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32197648/ns/politics-more_politics
Sarah Palin is from Alaska. Alaska has snow. Snow is white. Obama hates Sarah Palin. And all real Americans. Also, too.
asiangrrlMN
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I’m with Fuckhead (I’ve always wanted to say that!). After reading all the comments, I don’t know what the fuck Sully is trying to do, nor do I care. I saw Orly Taintz on Colbert, and she said unless they dig up Obama’s father so he can transfer his citizenship to American, Obama is not qualified.
It makes me want to run for prez just to make all their heads explode because NEITHER of my parents were born in the states or were American citizens when I was born.
The funniest part to me is the traditional media is starting to say, “Hm. I sense a racial aspect to this.” No shit. Duh.
gex
@rock: How do they release the “original” in any meaningful way? Every single way to present the original requires producing a copy of it ( a scan, a photo copy, a picture) or doing exactly what Sully is no longer accepting (sending an official in to examine and confirm). To produce the original in the way these arseholes are demanding would mean to literally send the specific piece of paper around to everyone.
General Winfield Stuck
OT
Told ya so. They got there reimbursement guarantees and signed on in Waxman’s committee. Four out of 7 BD’s means it will clear the Committee with PO intact. Won’t vote till after August break though. Done deal in HOuse.
Raw Story
kay
@gex:
Absolutely. But, it isn’t about the answer. It’s about keeping the question alive.
Anne Laurie
As Joe Biden would say, Sullivan’s blog is clean and articulate. His theories may make your brain hurt, but unlike so many of the Very Conservatard blogs, the layout, graphics, spelling, and grammar don’t make your eyes bleed. And since he doesn’t permit comments, you don’t risk reading something so vile that you give up all hope for the continued survival of our democracy, or possibly of the human race. Sullivan’s blog is the John Roberts to Erick Erickson’s Nino Scalia — the white-bread, clean-shaven version of the same old paleolithic hatemongering.
LD50
Wasn’t there a t-shirt in the 70s that said that?
Xenos
@General Winfield Stuck: Watch it pass the Senate without PO, and the PO to go back in in conference. Then the mother of all furballs soon thereafter.
gex
@IndieTarheel: Unless I can personally see, touch, and smell the 0’s and 1’s that comprise Obama’s birth certificate, I refuse to believe he is eligible for the presidency.
kay
@General Winfield Stuck:
It’s good news. Thank you.
les
@cleek:
How the hell is Obama supposed to enforce “transparency” on the Hawaii state government? God, get it–there is no part of this fucking argument that makes any sense.
Lyle4
Does Sullivan seriously think that no one sees right through this bullshit? That he’s only piling on to deflect from the Trig hoopla?
Jackass, you went to Harvard, have some foresight for once.
General Winfield Stuck
@Xenos:
I think you’re right.
General Winfield Stuck
@kay:
Good news it is. Lots more plays to be made though before it gets done.
valdivia
ha! I emailed Andrew and he wrote back still not getting that the point is that the LAW in the State of Hawaii is the one that determines what gets released not Obama. Hope this gets though his head and that he does take a vacation, he needs one and I do enjoy his blog, even if I know a bunch of you don’t.
GregB
President Obama could clear up this birth certificate matter over night by simply digging up his fathers corpse and getting it to make a statement on record.
Every minute that President Obama fails to do this leaves blood on his hands because people need to know and if they don’t know is it any surprise that they’d target the Holocaust Museum?
Glenn Beck said that Obama would target Jews and we now know it is the truth.
Thank you.
Batshit Crazy MotherFu*ker Caucus
Lyle4
And as he just posted:
Jesus Christ.
Punchy
If so, they probably should release it in order to stop the madness.
Yes, cuz the birthers will stop when they see this forged, faked, photoshopped (dont ask) faux-authentic birth certy. Uh huh. Yup. That’ll shut up Oily Titz
KG
@86: Taintz is so fucking far off base on the citizenship stuff, it’s amazing. If that’s the only argument the birfers have, well, they are screwed. Letting them go batshit insane in public really isn’t a bad thing either. Yes, it’s annoying, but the acceptance of a clearly debunkable conspiracy theory completely undermines them on every other issue.
As for Sullivan, he’s already posted that he’s been a bit ornery today, so I think this can go into the category of snark. With respect to the Trigg Palin story, I was always fascinated by it, only because Palin was using the kid as a shield and sword all while trying to play the “the kids are off limits” angle. Accepting Sarah Palin as Trigg’s mother (which there was no reason not to), created a whole host of questions about her judgment (not that we needed more, but still).
angulimala
Sully’s logic is that releasing the BC will make this issue die and therefore it is smart to release it.
I think he is mistaken and wrong.
It is still a far cry from claiming that , absent such proof, Obama should be presumed to be a non-citizen. THAT would make him a birther.
Just Some Fuckhead
President Obama, if that’s who he really is, should put all this nonsense to rest by sending out the black helicopters to round up birthers and put them in FEMA re-education camps.
lamh32
Sully is offically of my blog roll ’til he starts making some sense. I thought it was a one time obsession with the whole Palin Trig thing, but now with the Birther thing, Sully can suck it.
Legalize
The longer the President lets the morans bark, the more the GOP establishment is going to have keep fighting off the loonies WHO CONTROL THE PARTY. Such makes it more likely that sane GOPers and sane Blue Currs will try to distance themselves from the bat-shittery, by gee, I don’t know, playing along with the President’s health care plan – kinda like they did today in the House. If the President does anything other than what he has been doing with respect to the birther “issue” he is a fool. Let it ride, Barry!
Tax Analyst
The Other Steve said:
“Where are you supposed to get this original?
I have mine, it was given to me by my parents.
But my son, his birth certificate looks like Obama’s. It says Certificate of Live Birth.”
Well, looks like your kid can forget about ever being Preznident, doesn’t it?
Unless maybe he’s white.
JoyceH
Calvin Ball it is. If you could convince these loons that Ann Dunham indeed gave birth to a baby in Honolulu in 1961, they would immediately start clamoring for proof that Barack Obama is indeed that baby.
Yes, they would start demanding that Obama’s mother be dug up.
Oh, sh!t. I just realized. Ann Dunham was cremated and her ashes spread in the Pacific Ocean. Man, the crazoids could really go to town with that one.
Granddad is in the Punchbowl National Cemetery – I hope there’s good security there, to protect him from graverobbers…
The Saff
I checked out my birth certificate (“Certificate of Live Birth”) a couple days ago. It’s a copy dated July 1981 (I was born in Michigan in 1966) and it’s got the seal of the city where I was born.
So, since it’s not the original, does that mean I can’t be president?
Yeah, this birther stuff is way out of hand. Of course, everything the right is spewing these days is out of hand.
Trinity
@lamh32: Ditto.
Steve V
@The Saff:
Yeah, for some reason I think these standards are only being applied to Obama, and the birthers wouldn’t have a problem with you being president. Funny how that works.
Ugh
Can someone ask a birther to produce a copy of their birth certificate, and when they get it and it says “Certificate of Live Birth” we can say “well, I guess you weren’t born in the US either”?
Susanb2012
Someone in the comments said “once Sully becomes disenchanted with Obama” .. I think he already has. At first I thought it was about gay issues and repeal of DOMA and DADT (which will be on the agenda I’m sure but not quickly enough for him) but now I sense a real change in his writing and attitude. I was stunned at his bit on the birth cert, I gave him more credit than that and feel that he’s getting more and more angry about it all. What a shame as I really respected him and even wrote him an email to that effect. oh well
John S.
The only thing worse than an idiot is a SMUG idiot.
Perhaps when Sully finishes masturbating to all the page views he is churning up with this nonsense, he’ll check what the LAW IN HAWAII is regarding official documents. Or maybe he’d prefer Obama make some claim of executive authority to force the state to break their own law to make Sully happy.
Funny how these so-called “conservatives” who are allegedly fans of the rule of law have no use for them when it doesn’t suit their purposes and are the first to clamor for authoritarian maneuvers.
Trollhattan
Presuming the preznet has the power, authority, whatever to clear the matter up…why? This banshee storm of right-whig, er, wing crazy seems to be another rope-a-dope in progress.
Tiresome and jolly good fun in equal measure.
Tax Analyst
#81 – ET said: “…So basically the White House and specifically Obama should have Hawaii make millions of copies of the birth certificate (with the embossing) mailed directly from the state to every citizen of the United States so as to make it that everyone could see this is a bunch of crap?”
Well why not just require a fucking copy of it be imprinted on the Presidential Ballot next to the candidates name (and picture, of course, so you know what color person your vote is going to)? Really, others have said it in this thread, but how much DO we need to cater to nut-wing birfer fools? No matter what you dig up and supply them they will not be satisfied and like the cockroaches they are, they will find another crevice to slime out through and contaminate what still passes for “public discourse”. Hell, if the White House staff did what you suggest these characters (or another branch of their ilk) would be furious about “gummint munny” being spent for “personal purposes”, since any penny spent on an illegitimate president’s tasks is an illegal expenditure. The Secret Service protects Obama and the First Lady on a night out and they have a shit fit, as though Obama should be hiring his own bodyguards or something.
Those who nothing will satisfy I suggest be given exactly that. They will continue to holler, but at least it will be about the same lame, inane, ridiculous non-point that nobody with brain #1 takes seriously instead of dreaming up new BS for everyone to chase after.
LD50
ERRRRRRRNNNT. Sorry, Mr. Sullivan, you lose, we can see you’re still an idiot. Please accept this copy of the home game.
Andy K
@The Saff:
I question the validity of that CoLB. I’m 99% sure that it should be a county seal. No Oval Office for you.
gex
@The Grand Panjandrum: Leonard Little not only played for the Rams after killing a woman in a drunk driving accident, he has subsequently received a DUI after which he was allowed to play. If that is the standard, clearly Vick should be allowed to play.
Persia
@The Moar You Know: No way Andrew is Bob. Their weird hangups about women are completely different.
SrirachaHotSauce
@John S.:
Maybe it’s just me, but I have always considered Sullivan to be a pinbrain. Why anyone pays attention to him is beyond me.
Citizen_X
Sully is pissed off at Obama for not…withdrawing completely from Iraq by now.
I’m sorry, I don’t visit the website of Teh Last Sane Conservative, so is this true? Sullivan is pissed off that Obama’s not out of Iraq by now? ‘Cuz, ya know, if you compared Sully2002 and Obama2002, only one of them would have turned out to have been completely right about Iraq.
Hint: it wasn’t Sully.
Michael
@Anne Laurie
*swoon*
The Other Steve
Basically the Birther’s are saying Official Government documents are not legal.
Tax Analyst
The Saff said:
“I checked out my birth certificate (“Certificate of Live Birth”) a couple days ago. It’s a copy dated July 1981 (I was born in Michigan in 1966) and it’s got the seal of the city where I was born.
So, since it’s not the original, does that mean I can’t be president?”
I dunno. Are you white? Because I think that’s the birfer’s real point.
HRA
Check this out -list of UD presidents who had parents not born in the US
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message844358/pg1
LD50
Minus the stuff about Trig, this is verbatim the kind of gibberish you hear from the birthers who infest the letters section of Salon. All Sully needs to add is “what is Obama trying to hide?” and he’s indistinguishable from a Real Life Birther.
Oh but that doesn’t *make* Sully a birther, mind you. Hevvins no.
The Saff
Andy K @ 118: I didn’t look close enough to notice if it was a city or county seal. Howevah, it was good enough for me to get a passport so tehnically I could still be POTUS.
Andy K
@gex:
Not saying you’re wrong at all, but what happens to offensive lineman only stays in the headlines for a hot minute. Casual fans outside of St. Louis probably never heard about Little.
OTOH, Vick had the baggage of the Ron Mexico/VD story, as well as the bong-on-the-commercial-airliner story, in the headlines before the dogfighting came to light. Taking Vick on will be a p.r. nightmare for any team that signs him.
The Saff
I meant “technically I could still be POTUS.” No editing function any more on posts!
Zuzu's Petals
These are the same people who repeated – and repeated – the meme that all John Kerry had to do was “release his records.”
No matter that he posted his military records online.
No matter that he gave full access to his biographer long before the election.
No matter that he gave full access to three competing news organizations, who said the records were nearly identical to what he’d already posted on the Internet.
No matter that they could never really explain exactly WHAT records Kerry had not released that would prove or disprove anything, or that almost everything relevant was already a public record available in the archives or through a FOIA request.
It just sounded like it meant something to say “he hasn’t released them to US!”
DaddyJ
There’s some pent up emotion out there among certain white people. It’s going to continue to bubble up in very wierd ways for the next 3.5 to 7.5 years.
Last night I went into my bosses’ office to ask about how we should deal with a client who was complaining about a minor problem with a job we did. This situation, by the way, had nothing to do with race issues.
My boss was in there chatting with a co-worker. The co-worker said “Maybe you should say it was ‘STUPID’ — like the Gates thing!” My boss then chortled and said he’d he’d seen this hilarious health insurance video on the internet with the Aflac duck saying “HALF-BLACK! HALF-BLACK!”
They both laughed uproariously. I just sort of stood there, dumb-struck at this flame-on that just bubbled up out of nowhere.
My boss is a decent guy, btw, on issues other than race. And in fact, his racism seems to be more of a verbal tic than anything else. His actual relations with people are good, whatever their skin color. He just talks about them stupidly.
I’ve often thought that maybe if Obama declared a National Get It Off Your Chest Day and let people run around shouting “NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER” with no legal or social consequences for 24 hours, that 90% of this crap would be done with. People would no longer need Rush Limbaugh.
Andy K
@The Saff:
Lame excuses and questionable birth records will get you nowhere.
/snark
celticdragon
I would just like to point out that Sully has been digging up the especially nasty side of the eternal security state we now live in. His blog is how I found this nasty little nightmare…
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/135091.html
You might cut him some slack.
Elroy's Lunch
Lord, Sully’s latest post has as a final question from him regarding the birth certificate being withheld by the Obama campaing the following: “Or am I missing something?”
My email to him was was “yes, your friggin’ common sense.”
He deserves to give himself his Malkin Award.
gex
Christ on a stick. Sully now says (referring to the COLB released in November and viewed by Fact Check:
“So the Obama campaign has the original, has allowed factcheck.org to look at it, but won’t let anyone else? Or am I missing something?”
I guess he literally needs it in his sweaty palms.
Steve V
OMG, Sullivan won’t leave it alone.
Now he’s posted the fackcheck photo along with the factcheck text about seeing “the original birth certificate.” I’m pretty sure that factcheck used the term “birth certificate” to describe the COLB, which I think is fine since the COLB is, essentially, Obama’s birth certificate. But Sullivan’s confusion about factcheck’s nomenclature basically has him sounding almost verbatim like something BOB posted a few days ago (minus the slurs about the Annenberg connection to factcheck)! Someone needs to slap some sense into him or he’s going to go full birther by the end of the day.
John S.
@angulimala:
Sorry to break it to you, but Sully is officially a birfer now:
If it walks like BOB, talks like BOB and makes the same specious arguments as BOB, it’s a BIRFER!
angulimala
Ok John S,
Maybe I was giving Sully too much benefit of the doubt. We’ll see.
inkadu
@DaddyJ: His actual relations with people are good, whatever their skin color.
I think that’s true for the vast majority of racists. Any time you meet an individual, you start making exceptions.
Adrienne
@Ugh: I hate that though. I like animals as much as the next person, but this is fucking ridiculous. There are NFL players who have assault charges, have been involved in actual deaths, who’ve beat their women, etc. Yes, M.V. was wrong. What he did was horrific, but it seems like these people care more about some dogs than they do about actual people.
I’ll never forget this one thing about that: Around the same time that M.V. was going back and forth to court with protestors so “outraged” outside the courthouse, 4 college students were shot execution style in NJ. Where was the fucking outrage at that?
Surly Duff
“It is our job to demand all the evidence we want or need.”
And therein lies the problem with the Birther movement. What the political hacks that tolerate and engage the birthers, of whom apparently includes Sully, cannot understand is that there is a distinction between adequate and essential evidence and “all the evidence we want or need”. By using the latter phrase there is now no requirement that can possibly be fulfilled or met. The bar can consistently be raised to ensure that the evidence provided will never be ALL the evidence needed.
Also, the fact that Sullivan doesn’t grasp the concept that an evidentiary standard has been met already does not surprise me. And the concept that only by providing this other piece of evidence will somehow satisfy the wants and needs is ludicrous.
scarshapedstar
What’s this shit about doctors signing birth certificates, anyhow? What if you deliver a baby at home, or in a taxi cab on the way to the hospital? Is your baby ineligible for citizenship until you drag in a doctor? And why does a medical degree certify you to make state decisions such as conferring citizenship?
gex
@inkadu: This is true. I can still remember when my ex-girlfriend’s step dad told me I was the good kind of Asian. Whatever that means.
Oh, and he was a cop too.
gex
@Adrienne: I’m with you on that. Both should generate outrage.
OTOH, after several threads talking about the birfers, I have a much greater understanding why some people like dogs more than people.
Anne Laurie
Andrew “I (heart) The Bell Curve” Sullivan gave Obama six whole months in which to prove himself a credit to his race. Since the President has obstinately failed to do so, Sullivan is washing his hands of him. Those people! They’re just not ready!
Perhaps Michael Vick should run for president. He won’t actually meet the age requirement for another six years or so, so he’s got plenty of time to set up his political action committee(s). He can run as a single-issue “Abolish PETA” candidate, which won’t get him into the Oval Office but will attract a wide range of nutbars from all points on the political spectrum, and possibly even leave some room for genuine political debate among the rest of us sane people.
gnomedad
As I’ve suggested before, the birthers are cats and Obama has a laser. Why would he want to end this?
tcb
For my part, I don’t see why the German government doesn’t just release the documents proving the Holocaust happened. Am I missing something? If they just produce these documents, I’m sure reasonable people like myself and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will be satisfied. Where’s the transparency?
Nellcote
>“So the Obama campaign has the original, has allowed factcheck.org to look at it, but won’t let anyone else?
Sully is BOB!!!
Fern
@SrirachaHotSauce:
Yes, Sully writes smoothly enough that if you are not paying attention, it creates a false impression of intellegence and almost sounds like he is making sense.
WereBear
I’m not happy with that, either.
And we can discuss the concept of rehabilitation.
But one of the reasons animal rights people tend be so agitated about this is that until fairly recently, animal cruelty was only a fine and no jail time. If such a penalty was the norm for humans, you would see protests about that.
And while I’m against PETA, I do think we need to do a little extra on these matters, since animals cannot call 911.
They are entirely at OUR mercy.
Demo Woman
Sully has health insurance, he does not want reform. He obviously recognized that the repubs in power were heading us into a deep depression. Now that Obama is President and the economy is stabilizing, he is just going back to being the fucking asshole that he is. That remark is not meant because he’s gay. I just tired of all the birthers, tea baggers and racist comments being thrown about.
I do love this site cuz I can say almost anything except so.cial.ism.
henqiguai
@DaddyJ (#133):
And the bloodletting would be awsome !
Paul
To all the birthers in La, La Land, it is on you to prove to all of us that your assertion is true, if there are people who were there and support your position then show us the video (everyone has a price), either put up or frankly shut-up. I heard Orly Taitz, is selling a tape (I think it’s called “Money, Lies and Video tape”). She is from Orange County, CA, now I know what the mean when they say “behind the Orange Curtain”, when they talk about Orange County, the captial of Conspiracy Theories. You know Obama has a passport, he travel abroad before he was a Senator, but I guess he fooled them too?
Paul
To all the birthers in La, La Land, it is on you to prove to all of us that your assertion is true, if there are people who were there and support your position then show us the video (everyone has a price), either put up or frankly shut-up. I heard Orly Taitz, is selling a tape (I think it’s called “Money, Lies and Video tape”). She is from Orange County, CA, now I know what the mean when they say “behind the Orange Curtain”, when they talk about Orange County, the captial of Conspiracy Theories. You know Obama has a passport, he travel abroad before he was a Senator, but I guess he fooled them too?