Are Liberals More Corrupt?
There may have been various times in American history when this might have been a reasonable question to ask, but after eight years of Tom DeLay, Jack Abramoff, Scooter Libby, no bid Iraq contracts, Heckuva Job Brownie, the US Attorney scandals….when do I stop?
With the demise of Mouthpiece Theater, is there any chance they’ll pull the blog on “The Conversation”?
General Winfield Stuck
Now DougJ, we have to be fair to the wingnuts, even if the facts don’t support it. If they get to feeling too low, they might form gangs and start doing some really crazy shit.
pattonbt
But it would not be fair to not ask, now would it? That would be partisan.
madmommy
Now that Dollar Bill Jefferson has finally been convicted, it will cancel out every scandal you listed, plus any future scandals for the next 10 years. Because one crooked Dem is worse than a 100 scandal-plagued Republicans. According to the liberal media, that is.
cliff
“As for how conservatives should approach the issue, well, I agree that tying the fight against corruption to cutting home health care for invalids is probably a bad approach to take.”
——————————————–
No shit, really, ya think?
maeve
That was exactly my reaction – “Oh C’mon!!!”
Bias exhibit maybe?????
“Liberals: Peril or Menace?”
Hey! It’s both sides of the story!!!!
General Winfield Stuck
Sometimes Ross Douthat is fascinating to read. I can’t think of another wingnut, even Pat Buchanan, who can say something thoughtful and smart one sentence, and the next say something so dumb it makes your teeth hurt.
SpotWeld
Blackwater people, Blackwater!!
Steeplejack
Don’t have the intestinal fortitude to read the whole piece right now–Douthat’s premise, “liberalism tends to breed corruption,” is so boneheaded it makes my eyes water–but I will say that in general I like Gail Collins. I did read the first few paragraphs, and I hope she tears Douthat a new one.
flavortext
Madre de dios!
Because corporations have never targeted the center of power in this country before, no sirree!
Seriously.
Shalimar
If Republicans continue down the current road and get trounced in 2010 and 2012, I think the answer will be yes again by default. Lobbyists and other influence peddlers have no reason to bribe members of a party which doesn’t have any power.
Will
@General Winfield Stuck:
Pat Buchanan tends instead to follow up his smart statements with something effortlessly bigoted and hateful, rather than just stupid.
He was great on the Iraq War. That’s all I got.
mclaren
Belongs with those other great titles like “Torture: Celebration of Freedom, Or Proof of America’s High Ethical Standing?” and “GOP Pedophilia — Evidence Conservatives Still Hold the Moral High Ground.”
Still waiting for “John Yoo, American Hero” and “Ann Coulter Explains Why She Follows Jesus’ Advice `Judge Not, Lest Ye be Judged.'”
Batocchio
Is the Pope Jewish?
Anne Laurie
Oh, goddess save us — Ross Douthat “sitting in” for David Brooks. And gifting us with airy persiflage like…
And also
No, you sorry sack of shite, because Coolidge didn’t require his criminal cronies to use “lobbyists” as a legalistic figleaf when they set out to loot the Treasury and destroy democracy. And if you honestly think Newt Gingrich “and company” had an interest in altering the structure of government — as opposed to destroying what structure they could when not too busy looking out for their own narrow interests and those of the corporations that owned them — then you are even dumber than you
lookwrite. Gingrich and Coolidge could not get “more corrupt” while sniffing the swamps of DC because they were already as corrupt as it was possible to be without actually getting arrested for robbing banks or sodomizing small animals in public!Steeplejack
@Anne Laurie:
What she said.
flavortext
I failed to point out that Calvin Coolidge served as VP under the most corrupt Administration in U.S. history – that of Warren G. Harding, a small-government conservative Republican in an era when the federal government was absolutely tiny. And yet half the people in his executive branch were corrupt bribe-takers! Is Douthat oblivious to history or what?
Turgidson
Haha.
With modern Republicans, corruption is the fucking point. It’s a feature, not a bug. They don’t believe in government, except as a vehicle to exploit to enrich themselves and their bestest buddies. Why this idiotic country entrusted them with the levers of power so fucking long is still absolutely mystifying to me on a gut, emotional level. It’s like putting a robber, complete with ski mask and gun, in charge of the bank vault.
With Democrats (well, not the soft-GOP Blue Dogs and DLC sponges, who are just as skullfuckingly corrupt as the GOP), corruption is an unfortunate consequence of the fact that people are easily corrupted when they are in a position powerful enough to be worthy of corrupting in the first place. And Democrats kick those people to the curb….eventually…usually…while the GOP puts their best corruptoids on their shoulders for victory laps.
oh really
It won’t be long before there is absolutely nothing worthwhile left on the opinion pages of the Times.
It’s not bad enough that they hired Reverend Douthat to preach to us a couple of times a week. (Note: I religiously avoid his column like my eternal soul depended on it.) Now, the dim and boring Gail Collins has to invite Douthat to fill in for David Brooks (unavailable until he finishes his latest unnecessary and uninteresting book) and serve up more in what seems to be an inexhaustible series of utterly worthless discussions between two people whose opinions are of no interest whatever to me.
As usual, I have chosen to venture no further than the title. In fact, this comment took more time to write than I have spent on anything either Collins or Douthat has written in months.
I can hardly wait for the Times to start charging for online access again.
Jack T.
@ Spotweld
Exactly. 50 Jeffersons wouldn’t be that bad.
Brian J
Seems like the title was purposefully designed to have people linking to that page. I’m not saying it’s right, only that the conversation seems so vanilla so as to suggest nothing else.
ninerdave
@madmommy:
…and we have Jack Murtha after that, so the GOP should be good for the next 20.
I’ve always been of the mind that the traditional media isn’t in the pocket of the GOP, but rather lazy, and drumming up controversy where it isn’t just to write a headline. I’m slowly becoming convinced I’m wrong.
Thankfully most people don’t (yet) read these kind of idiotic features on the the major media outlets.
Why did Gail Collins not drop the hammer on Ross “sexually repressed” Douthat? Why is this even a question fit for a “debate” and not much of a debate it was, since Gail said one thing, Ross replied and that was that.
ninerdave
@General Winfield Stuck:
I totally appreciate his articles on women, which are simply a projection of “no one will fuck me”.
In all honesty I have to say there is no one (IMO) who is more vapid and a projectionist than Douthat. I honestly don’t understand how he got his gig. Broader, Krauthammer, Will, they are professional shills who actually write about policy. Douthat writes about how he can’t get laid.
ninerdave
@General Winfield Stuck:
I totally appreciate his articles on women, which are simply a projection of “no one will fuck me”.
In all honesty I have to say there is no one (IMO) who is more vapid and a projectionist than Douthat. I honestly don’t understand how he got his gig. Broader, Krauthammer, Will, they are professional shills who actually write about policy. Douthat writes about how he can’t get laid.
ninerdave
YA!! for duplicate posts!
tc125231
@General Winfield Stuck: I used ti read RD at the Atlantic, in my mis-spent middle age.
I eventually concluded that the appearance of thoughtful on his part was basically a mirage.
tc125231
@flavortext: He is actually oblivious to empirical fact of all descriptions.
Wile E. Quixote
ninerdave
@General Winfield Stuck:
Strangely enough I remember thinking the same thing. I wonder if Ross hangs around at True Forced Loneliness. I mean it sounds like his kind of place, there’s a disgustingly fat, self-pitying asshole a know-it-all self-pitying wankstain and a birfer there. Ross would fit right in.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
@ninerdave:
And even that would seem to make sense; a lot of single guys under 30 whine about that–except that he’s married! The guy doesn’t make sense on multiple levels.
Prospero
Sooo lobbyists influencing the government is bad, so the government should just cede all the power to the lobbyists so that they could form policy direcly? Cut the middleman, haha. Good god, Douhat is a scum.
Wile E. Quixote
@DougJ
Yeah, really, I don’t know why they go after the New York Post for headlines like Hung Fu or Headless Body in Topless Bar. OK, these headlines might be considered by some to be tasteless, but at least they were accurate.
Robertdsc-iphone
Douthat’s presence at the Times makes me miss Hilzoy all the more. I hope her trip went well.
cosanostradamus
.
I am. I so totally am. Please send check or money order ASAP. I will awesomely whore for any liberal or progressive, radical or revolutionary multinational corporation or political front-group no matter what their transgressions and ulterior motives, ever. I will eat babies for you dudes! I’ll make Dick Cheney look like Mother Theresa.
Actually, he is kinda starting to look like her. Physically, I mean…
Pix. Not.
.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Look, it’s simple. When Republicans get caught wide-stancing for a group of lobbyists on the Appalachian trail in exchange for a million dollar “donation,” they invoke the Baby Jesus, If Democrats find themselves in the same situation, they call their lawyers.
Everyone knows the Baby Jesus is good, lawyers are evil.
Scott
after eight years of Tom DeLay, Jack Abramoff, Scooter Libby, no bid Iraq contracts, Heckuva Job Brownie, the US Attorney scandals….
US Media: “Whaaaat? Tom who? Jack who? Scooter who? George W. what? We’ve never heard of those guys. We start every day with brains utterly blanked of all previous knowledge or information. Except that Clinton’s penis is bad, his wife is a bitch, and President Blackazoid is scary…”
Shakira Botello
They are all corrupt… they are politicians.
Some more than others… well we had Clinton open the free trade with the world and now we owe our as..s to China! It messed up our border states’ economy. It messed up Puerto Rico when he got rid of tax exempt bill and open the free trade. So as far as trade libs were more corrupt in my book even if they had good intentions…
As far as torture… that the conservs take the front row…
As far as the economy… Carter Deregulated the airlines, the Banking Indrustry, Oil and natural gas, and the Telecom indrustry.
I am a liberal, but going back history will show us some other points of views.
Now the reps did not do anything to fix it and that is not redeemable. They just took and took and took and now the world is upside down!
Shakira Botello
KCole, I frequent another site called http://www.mariopiperni.com and he has a revise button after you finish writing so as to fix your mistakes… which I make many… thought that was a nice feature. Do you have that and I have not seen it? It is my first visit to your site.
http://www.mariopiperni.com has you listed as one of his favs… that is how I found you. He really has fantastic illustrations. So I’m glad I found this… like what I read here.
harlana pepper
Hmm, Obama caves to drug lobbyists, per NYT on Washington Journal. (sigh)
harlana pepper
Pittsburgh shooter broadcast his murderous plans on blog: news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090806/ap_on_re_us/us_health_club_shooting
harlana pepper
‘A neighbor, Connie Fontanesi, said Sodini was so anti-social that “we really didn’t learn anything personal about him.” ‘
Another example of someone desperately in need of mental health treatment. He thought the problem was with women, not himself.
asiangrrlMN
I think Douthat has shot to the top of my ‘must never read because I will poke my eyes out with a blunt stick’ list. No, I did not read the article–the excerpts were bad enough.
IndieTarheel
@flavortext:
Fixerated. And yes, also.
Tim F.
Do the Yankees molest farm animals? Our conversation with the Red Sox.
IndieTarheel
Fixerated. And yes, also.
Tzal
BUT IT’S SO THOUGHT PROVOKING!!!!
harlana pepper
@Tim F.: LMAO (e.g., why I love Balloon Juice)
OT but when I was working 6 months ago, the young girl attorney peeked over my shoulder one day and saw me on this site. She says “What on earth is Balloon Juice??” I clumsily tried to explain. I don’t know one soul personally who visits or even has minimal interest in blogs or internets news of any sort and here I’ve been on them for 5 years.
harlana pepper
Erhm, make that about 7 years, I lose track
harlana pepper
Hm, never thot about this, but it was teh progressive blogs that drove me to near insanity. Because I found out the truth, more of the truth than I could handle. Unfortunately, ignorance is indeed bliss.
jenniebee
So Douthat’s argument, as I understand it, is that larger government expenditure leads to more opportunities to exploit it.
So, the next Douthat column, he’s going to just give over entirely to Ike’s Farewell Address, right? Because the money in the oh-so-dangerously-corrupt-social-program Head Start is just peanuts next to what’s going on in the Pentagon.
Comrade Dread
No. Everyone in government is about equally corrupt. Okay, maybe there might be one or two Mr. Smiths who honestly believe in principles and the whole public service thing and that it’s possible to do good, but they’re not usually invited to the cocktail parties where important decisions are made and are routinely ridiculed in the media for not compromising and selling out.
I think his point is half right. If the government didn’t have the power to strongly influence markets, corporations would not have as strong an incentive to lobby government for changes. Of course, the flaw that I see in this is that if the government lacks the adequate authority to regulate an industry, then it has no power to correct negative externalities.
Also, his assertion answers the main question. No, liberals are more corrupt. Conservatives have also fought for bigger stronger government, more spending, and also signed off on a slew of deregulation legislation (some good, but a lot bad for us) that favored industry.
As to the business of lobbyists in Coolidge’s days, well, I suppose one can also make a valid argument that there weren’t that many lobbyists because there weren’t that many large corporations that spanned the country and the globe. The railroad and oil industries did just fine buying Congressman.
serge
Are we more corrupt? Certainly we are from a corporatist viewpoint.
We’ve never been into feeding the beast. Bad liberals!
burnspbesq
Democrat: Republican
Venal: Evil
There’s your verbal SAT analogies answer, Ross.
harlana pepper
I’d say “big government” in the form of pouring billions of taxpayer dollars into an unjust war to line the pockets of viciously corrupt contractor buddies of Cheney/Bush, killing millions of Iraqis and over 4,000 service men and women, is pretty fucking corrupt.
Honestly, what is wrong with these people?? (e.g., how teh corporate media ate the inside of my brain)
Brian J
@harlana pepper:
I’ve had the opposite expierience. One guy who started to work with me a couple months back is an ABD in political science. He’s obviously got more of a reason to be in tune with this stuff than others, but with a such a myriad of choices out there, you don’t expect people you meet in real life to read some of the less well known sources. And yet, if I’ve heard him praise one blog more than any other, it’s been this one. It’s perfectly understandable, as I think very highly of this site, but it’s still amusing to meet someone in real life who reads BJ, when you think of how few people do so compared to all people reading blogs.
The Grand Panjandrum
Collings: Hey, Ross lets over generalize about liberals and conservatives.
Douthat: Cool! Then we can label this package of rotting feces as pure spring fed bottled intellectual goodness.
Collins: Dude!
Douthat: Dude!
burnspbesq
Just to show that not everyone at the Times is as obtuse as Ross.
egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/clunker-class-war/
harlana pepper
@Brian J: That’s really interesting. I used to read a lot of different progressive blogs (can you say “nerd”?), but this is the only progessive blog I visit anymore, partly because it has really good snark (posts & comments) and I can at least get some comic relief from the horror that was the Bush administration and IS the aftermath of the Bush administration today. Also, too much information (esp. regarding Iraq, which is typically not the focus of this blog) just leads to frustration for me. Despite Obama’s efforts (and I realize at times they register as feeble) it’s gonna be with us for a loooong time.
The Grand Panjandrum
@Tim F.:
@burnspbesq:
burnspbesq
@The Grand Panjandrum:
We live to serve. Enjoy your coffee.
The Grand Panjandrum
@burnspbesq: Thanks. And I am also going to brush up on my html editing skills along with my coffee. Oy.
Ash Can
Largely OT but not entirely: The RNC has been re-routing phone calls complaining about the organized hijacking of townhalls to the DNC.
Gex
I guess technically, he is correct. When the conservative philosophy is all about “I got mine” there can be no corruption. If you have priciples other than getting yours, then you can be corrupted and betray those principles.
thomas
the republican party has been a wholly owned subsidiary of corporations FROM THE BEGINNING. Linclon did the big give-away to the railroad robber barons when building the transcontenental RR. The only blip in this history was TR.
Not that the D’s are innocent but looking at the record will show anyone that the difference is more than marginal.
bob h
If you take NJ corruption into account, it might indeed tip the balance toward us.