It’s not just Ambinder and McArdle. Here’s the Atlantic’s Chris Good:
It’s August, and lawmakers are back in their home states talking to constituents. Liberals and conservatives alike will show up to town-hall meetings and other events to question their elected officials–sometimes loudly–about health care and the rest of Washington’s business, as lawmakers make the case for their own agenda. When passions run high, debate can be spirited. We’ll be watching.
What follows is a fairly polite exchange at an Arkansas town hall.
In the past week, we’ve seen death threats, Congressman hanged in effigy, Congressmen depicted as the devil, and they come up with “When passions run high, debate can be spirited. We’ll be watching.”
Am I paranoid to wonder what went on in some of those off-the-record Atlantic salons?
b-psycho
The woman saying “Obama has an agenda!!” cracked me up. Yes, of course he does, so does every other politician, that’s why they became politicians. Such obviousness stated as if it’s a shocking revelation is amazing.
Brick Oven Bill
”If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.”
All physical threats should be investigated by the FBI.
“Be careful how you make those statements, gentlemen. The public isn’t buying that. My administration,” the president added, “is the only thing between you and the pitchforks.”
Because, you know, Rahm has bussed ACORN rent-a-mobs outside your family’s residence.
I have also heard that there is an allegation of a perceived threat from a phone caller to a Congressman’ aide which is being duly investigated.
Babies.
ellaesther
I just cannot understand why people have such a hard time seeing the difference between “spirited debate” and shutting down the process. Even though the former often involves nasty, unpleasant exchanges — it is democracy. The latter is not. That’s how simple it is!
The extent to which this behavior is being winked at on the right, and treated as a form of discourse by people too smart to see it that way in the middle, just blows my mind and frankly worries me. I had this crazy notion that when the bad guys left town in January, we would all start behaving again, but good God, there appear to be a very large number of people in the country (some of whom are elected officials!) who truly want nothing to do with an actual democratic dialogue.
Aaand I’ve quoted myself again. Which I keep doing, so I’m just going to link to myself, and beg forgiveness for the blog pimping: http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2009/08/04/civil-society/
thomas
here’s an idea. it’s time for progressive types to show up at these meetings – I don’t care if it’s our guys, blue dogs or repugs – with hand lettered signs saying:
‘Time to rescue BIG PAHRMA’
‘More profits for BIG INSURANCE COMPANIES’
‘End Medicare Socialism’
I think you get the idea
simonee
Sure, the discussions will be ‘spirited’ when trolls at town hall meetings don’t know a lick about the intricacies of healthcare policy and want and yet rant and rave about t3h soshulizm.
I do have to say though– old people yelling can get very scary.
jwb
Well, pointing out that the teabaggers acted like a mob seems to have drawn blood. In any case, I was at a meeting earlier today and one guy had a very defensive sign: “I’m not a mob, I’m a person.” Actually, it was a meeting primarily for vets at a VA hospital, and, as I was sitting around before the Representative came out, all I heard was bitching about the government and how they needed to keep their hands out of health care. They weren’t complaining about their VA medical, which they seemed to feel was threatened by reform. And the guy holding the sign: retired federal employee who spends his days listening to talk radio. Still banging my head against the wall.
Legalize
In OT, but very nice news, Sonia Sotomayor of New York (what what) is your next Associate Justice of the Supreme Court. Senator Al Franken told me so.
:)
wilfred
The logical next step in rampant factionalism.
Politics is dead, cometh the (heavily financed) mob. In any case, the new Republicans will probably have the same success as the anti-war left had. Which is to say none. And that was a righteous cause; the current edition is horseshit.
Anyway, dogs bark, etc.
jcricket
Pointing out that the two “opposing sides” are not, in fact, equal, is basically like Kryptonite to the Villagers. False equivalency must be made at all costs!
It’s as if we need equal time for those who said “the moon landing was real” and those who thought it was faked every time we report about NASA. “Some say we land on the moon, other’s say it was a hoax and the moon is made of green cheese. We report, you decide.”
Yet the Villagers think what they’re reporting on is somehow different.
If we ever get to a point where Republicans are less than 20-30% of the population, I still expect this problem to be around, and perhaps be even worse.
grape_crush
Am I paranoid to wonder what went on in some of those off-the-record Atlantic salons?
No…Am I being paranoid for wondering about how the ad revenue Big Pharma, Big Med, et al pays to periodicals like the Atlantic affects their coverage of health care issues?
ellaesther
@Legalize: May all OT always be this delightful!
I wonder who the nine Republicans were who voted for her (68+31 = 99, because Teddy Kennedy is sick and couldn’t vote. Oh FSM, please let him make it to the health care reform vote…!). I’m going to have to go look that up! And drop a few thank you notes in the mail!
MikeJ
There was no money to be made by being anti-war, there’s huge money in killing healthcare. I wouldn’t bet against them.
SpotWeld
B.O.B.
I’m finally glad to see you are coming around.
The GOP are acting like a bunch of babies.
Petulant whiney babies.
As seen with thier little call forwarding stunt, they can certainly dish out the non-productive abuse, but they certainly turn tail and run when they might have to take it.
MikeJ
Hehe:
http://minnesotaindependent.com/41331/franken-president-senate-sotomayor
wilfred
@grape_crush:
No. Why would health care – the last of the legislative rainmakers – not be strictly about money? Whatever good it brings will be secondary to its status as the greatest cash cow to ever hit the slaughterhouse.
Minus single payer, future ad revenue will be astronomical.
Tax Analyst
“spirited debate” –
“blah-blah-blah-government bad, blah-blah-blah-birfh cirtifikette, blah-blah-blah-youth-in-asia, blah-blah-blah-racist, blah-blah-blah-we cant aford it, blah-blah-blah-soshewilllispsome”
(trying to defeat the filter there)
Ash Can
@jwb: That reminds me of one afternoon not too long ago when I found myself stopped at a red light behind a van with a sticker of an elephant peeing on the word “liberals,” and a sticker right next to it, of the same size, that supported labor unions. Either that’s a mixed marriage, or the owner of that van is yet another person who just isn’t paying any attention to reality at all.
The Grand Panjandrum
“Congress won’t let insurance companies cross state lines!” (Uuuuhhhh yes they will. They are regulated at the state level.)
“I have never seen MY America, what it’s has being changed into. I’m scared! ”
(Here’s some video for you darling. Admit it. Isn’t that what you’re really worried about?)
“There is like 100% of Americans in America …. ” (Yikes!)
“Obama has an agenda!”
(No shit Sherlock and water is wet.)
“I’m concerned about the overall plan of our governemnt. He has a healthcare advisor! Rahm’s brother! He has the President’s ear! The President is going to make Congress pass a bill!”
(So the President has an advisor, and that advisor has his ear? Who’da thunk it?)
anonevent
June 13, 1804 headline:
Hamilton and Burr Have Spirited Debate with Pistols
gwangung
Waddya mean, “It’s as if”. Evolution / “intelligent” design. Climate change / denialists. One side has the research, the other side has pet ideologies. Been that way for the last 30-40 years.
Eric U.
this whole sorry episode just shows that republicans have no capability for debate. When they run town halls, they don’t anyone other than sycophants in. When the dems run town halls, repubs don’t just ask pointed questions, they shout down the proceedings. If I was running a town hall, I would welcome questions containing the repub talking points, because they actually are self-defeating of the argument for the status quo. Screaming mobs are obviously intended to make a point that has nothing to do with the issues.
b-psycho
@The Grand Panjandrum: Someone needs to make a spoof right-wing activist group and call it “Americans for America”.
Zifnab
Fix’d!
I don’t know about you, but I always thought Energy was running neck and neck – if not entirely outpacing – Health Care. After all, we didn’t invade a couple of foreign countries over
terrorism!increasing our band-aid supply.There are a lot of cash cows in America. When we stop spending half our fortune on insurance premiums, it’s not like we’re going to stop spending money. I guarantee, if health care passes, in four years iPhone sales will be going back through the roof.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Welcome to Nixonland! If you think it is bad now, thank your deity of choice that you weren’t around during the 1970s. Try Googling “hard hat riot 1970”.
Americans for America
@b-psycho: I agree.
Eric U.
@MikeJ: He only lasted a month as Prez though, so he’s off the timeline in the book. I do think we should be able to find a place for his brother knocking out members of the media.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
Someone needs to make a spoof right-wing activist group and call it “Americans for America”.
Even better would be Native Sons and Daughters of America Party, but I’m really hoping that name will get picked up by a true Palinite 3rd party rather than a spoof group. Of course it scans better in the original German.
ellaesther
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: You’re right of course – as you are over at my place!
Damn it, I usually don’t fall into this trap! I’m usually the one saying “Crazy? You think this is crazy? You should have seen the shit that broke out surround the Lincoln-Douglas debates!” (or some such).
I guess I hate it, and it makes me ill, and I wish it would stop and people would grow the fuck up. Is that really too much to ask?
Yes? Oh dear. All right then.
Ash Can
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Oh, I was around all right. Wow, does that bring back memories. Those were some nasty demonstrations those days, that’s for sure.
bob h
I do hope the UAW and Teamsters provide a few people for balance at these rallies, but no need to bring end wrenches.
Demo Woman
@ellaesther: Here’s who they are: Lamar Alexander (TN), Kit Bond (MO), Susan Collins (ME), Lindsey Graham (SC), Judd Gregg (NH), Richard Lugar (IN), Mel Martinez (FL), Olympia Snowe (ME) and George Voinovich (OH).
Trinity
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: My husband is in a Union. Many of his friends are wingnuts. Fools the lot of ’em.
A Mom Anon
So what the hell do these screaming jackasses have to gain from this? Are they getting paid or promised something beyond lunch and a free bus ride and a t-shirt? What is it? I want to fucking know. It better be fucking good to sell me,my family and my neighborhood down the river.
I’m sitting here just waiting for the blizzard of paper to come from the hospital and I’m scared out of my mind. I’m trying to take care of my husband and I should not have to be terrified that the stupid insurance company is going to opt out of paying for all this. That’s fucked up,and I HAVE insurance,I can’t imagine the terror when you don’t have it at all. Hell, a few months ago we had no insurance,it could have been us.
When I see my so called fine fellow Americans yelling and screaming and derailing democracy like this it makes me furious,it takes my breath away. I hate them. They are why we can’t have nice things. They’re bullies and whores. They can’t win,they just can’t.
Scott
Any Congresscritter who’s holding a town-hall meeting really ought to make sure they have videocameras pointed at the crowd. If they don’t, they’re crazy. The way the Republicans are tilting, you gotta make sure you have something to hand to the cops so they can pinpoint which one of the GOP loons started shooting.
ellaesther
@Demo Woman: Thank you very much!
Though I have to say: Ugh. That’s right. Now I have to loathe Lindsay Graham a smidge bit less. Consarn it!
General Winfield Stuck
I personally think a sizable portion of the Republican Party has declared civil war. The subliminal message of these these things are, “America, you’re on notice, if you don’t start voting for us soon, we will commence to blow shit up”
It is not about health care, or any other issue. It’s about power and control and if we can’t haz it with elections, we will haz it by mayhem.
Davis X. Machina
Their team is winning. The other team is losing. That’s enough for many people
What do I actually get out of having the Sox beat the Yankees this weekend?
To understand politics you have to throw away theFederalist Papers and get a big foam ‘We’re #1’ finger.
KG
@30: well, we know Martinez is on his way out already, I wonder if the rest of them are now going to be targets. Collins and Snowe, I can see being challenged in the primaries, if only because the wingnuts may want to go RINO hunting (note: I’m not calling them RINOs, I actually like Snowe and Collins). Not sure about the rest of them.
ellaesther
@A Mom Anon: Truly: I do think that they’re going to lose. Emily Dickinson said it about human emotion, but it’s true about politics as well: “A Wounded Deer—leaps highest— I’ve heard the Hunter tell—’Tis but the Ecstasy of death—And then the Brake is still.” They’re getting this noisy because they’re getting so close to losing.
Good luck, sweetie.
Joshua Norton
A little OT, but The Senate voted for 68 to 31 Sonia Sotomayor today. This should set off a whole new wave of screaming looney tunes.
Let the mandatory sex-change operations begin!
Davis X. Machina
Collins and Snowe are together about as safe as any two politicians in the country, even from a token primary challenge.
I have some small modicum of respect for Snowe — she made her political bones the old way — but Collins is the first fully synthetic Senator — made in a lab entirely of textured vegetable protein, and run by microprocessors running a highly-tweaked set of perl scripts under the direction of the faculty of the Wharton School’s marketing department. In other words, Senator Hannah Montana.
Brick Oven Bill
9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty.
There is a very easy way to end 1400 years of history driven by Jihadist philosophy. Just deny it exists! Duh. Then call Americans who show up to town hall meetings a mob.
The Obama Administration is very brave and smart.
Scott
I gotta admit, I think it’s way, way, way past time we started arresting certain unscrupulous Repub/insurance operatives and tossing them in the clink for treason and terrorism… Hopefully, the feds will get busy with that before the next OKC bombing forces them to…
kay
I called my far-right House member to encourage him to support health reform. His local office phone rang and rang, and finally went to message, so I’m not sure if he’s at all interested in anything constituents have to say, but anyway.
I left an elaborately polite message with my full name and contact information, although of course he’s already on record with the rest of the lock-step drones on the right as opposing reform.
I think contrast might be important in this “debate”.
Morbo
@Demo Woman: RINOs! Time for operation leper!
Zifnab25
@Scott: I think it is worth noting that the OK bombing was in OK. And Waco was in Texas. Kennedy wasn’t shot in Mass. The wackos don’t range far from home.
General Winfield Stuck
Jaysus BoB, what are you blathering about. And Gawd help me for clicking on one of your links. Obama is just calling something what it is. “A war with AQ” and not a war on a tactic, that is often taken broadly to mean a war on Islam..
As far as the wingnuts roaming the countryside like packs of frothing manimals, Obama should call that what it is as well. Today’s Grand Ole Party.
Joshua Norton
To understand politics you have to throw away theFederalist Papers and get a big foam ‘We’re #1’ finger.
If only. The way they’re carrying on, they appeared to have moved deep into “hockey mask and machete” territory.
EnderWiggin
BTW Confirmed and stuff
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5huyApqmCqq9U5Hw9jP5IYR1gSQEwD99TINM80
Colette
@Joshua Norton:
Alhamdulillah!
Hey, they’ll be free, so quit yer bitchin.’
wilfred
@Brick Oven Bill:
Sura 9 is the grassy knoll of the anti-Muslim bigots. Now being a Muslim myself, although not a very observant one, I know heaps of Muslims and I can honestly say I have never met one who did not believe that that verse was directed to a particular group of people in a particular place at a particular time and thus is not relevant to them.
Now of course to a ‘jihadist’ that’s an incorrect reading. To whom we say – lakum deenakum walliya deen, more or less.
But I doubt there are many jihadists in the US. There are, however, millions of fundamentalist Xians who believe in the literal truth of everything in the Bible, things like:
Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.</i) Ex. 22:18-20
That’s downright un-American, I’d say. yet w continue to tolerate people in our midst who openly believe in this sort of thing. Or in this:
Deuteronomy 13:12-15
Sounds like jihad to me. Or does that only mean Palestine way back when?
Maybe you should worry about your own jihadists and the corruption they’ve inflicted on American society.
JGabriel
Ambinber, McArdle, Chris Good – again, I point out that all these writers are published in The Atlantic, the same Atlantic that confessed to, and defended, the same kind of pay-for-play parties The Washington Post was so recently excoriated for.
.
jwb
@Joshua Norton
like this?
kay
If reform fails, the health insurance industry are going to go hog-wild. They’ll know we’re completely at their mercy, and we’ve already learned that they’re running regional monopolies. Egads. You thought it was bad before. They’ll be 100% in the driver’s seat, without even a viable threat of intervention to act as an opposing force. The lending industry took it right to the wall of flat-broke consumers, just last summer.
I just thought I’d mention that. I hope we’re not relying on their sense of fair play or prudence and long-term business planning.
ellaesther
@wilfred: I swore I was going to stop commenting on this thread — I do get carried away — but I’m so happy you wrote this. I’ve done a lot of writing and speaking about the need for us all to stop demonizing each other, and I’m always so grateful to read this kind of insight. All of our Scriptures have some nasty stuff in them, but they also have heaven there, and we need to start looking at each other as we really are, in all of our glory and weaknesses. Better angels and whatnot….
jwb
@kay
Actually, I think the industry needs the universal mandate to be totally in the driver’s seat, which is why in the worst of all possible worlds, insurance reform will consist of requiring everyone to buy insurance but with no checks on the industry.
JGabriel
Joshua Norton:
That’s a bit closer than I thought it would be.
If candidates as centrist a Sotomayor can only get 8 GOP votes, then I can’t see any reason for Obama to nominate them. Obama should look for reliable progressive justices for the Supreme Court in the future.
It’s a shame he didn’t this time. While I hope we still have a 60 vote majority in the Senate next time there’s an SC opening, there’s no guarantee.
.
General Winfield Stuck
Our bobbleheads never cease to amaze. Tweety starts off his show today highlighting the Quinapiac poll having Obama’s approval number at 50 %. anyone who has followed the polls knows Quinipiac has consistently had numbers 6 or 7 points lower than all the other polls from the beginning, except for Marist, another student poll, I think.
kay
@jwb:
I don’t think regulation alone is going to work. If we insist they cover everyone, they’re just going to make up the difference in higher rates and less coverage. If we’re actually setting rates, we may as well go to a total public plan, and skip the private middleman entirely.
I think they need a non-profit competitor. I can’t get there any other way.
The “mandated coverage, no regulation” idea is the auto insurance model, but that won’t work, because people are not automobiles.
Bnad
The American press respects thuggery.
jwb
General Winfield Stuck
I would have been shocked had he led with anything but that…
kay
@General Winfield Stuck:
I’m disgusted with him, as usual. He’s on an active mission to kill health care reform.
I never could stand him. I think it’s particularly disgusting that he’s a diabetic, who requires, and gets, top-notch care.
He should stop kidding himself that he’s some “everyman”. He’s fat and happy with the status quo.
The Populist
“Because, you know, Rahm has bussed ACORN rent-a-mobs outside your family’s residence.”
Prove it Bill. I can top your claims by showing case after case of rightie lunacy being bused in to harass people in their own homes.
jwb
@kay
I agree completely. I’m very much in favor of the public option (actually I’d prefer single-payer, but that seems less and less likely). I’m just saying the worst possible outcome (worse than the status quo) is that “reform” consists solely of the insurance industry getting the universal mandate.
wilfred
@ellaesther:
Good luck to you. I used to get involved in such things, endlessly in the old internet days, but I came to the conclusion that reasonable people would always find a way; for the unreasonable, one word was too many and a million not enough – like birfers, really.
Just Some Fuckhead
So am I understanding correctly that euthananizing old people is completely off the table now?
Fuck. That. Shit.
The Populist
“Sure, the discussions will be ‘spirited’ when trolls at town hall meetings don’t know a lick about the intricacies of healthcare policy and want and yet rant and rave about t3h soshulizm.”
My 80 year old mother in law was griping about this claiming Fox News told her that they are abolishing her insurance via medicare and it’s socialistic. I laughed at her and told her and pointed out that Medicare IS socialism, dear.
She walked away grumbling and she voted for Obama!
Weirder yet, the next old person who whines about this without doing their homework will be the ones I laugh at to say I agree with the right that Medicare is a burden on average taxpayers and wait for the response.
That is what needs to be done. Take their outrage and shove it back at them in a way that will throw them off.
Old person: Don’t touch MEDICARE! No to Socialism!!
Me: Medicare is socialism!!!
Old: No it isn’t. Obama wants to kill me.
Me: Maybe the republicans are right when they talk about Medicare being a burden on us all. Maybe you should go find an insurer who will take you on. I am sure somebody will work with you.
Old: I can’t afford that! I worked hard and never asked for anything in life. I live within my means and I deserve medicare.
Me: So you like being a burden on your taxpaying kids and it’s okay to kill education programs for your kids so you can have socialism by way of medicare?
Old: Stop it! You are wrong! The Republicans are fighting to save my right to medicare.
Me: First, Medicare is NOT a right. It’s a priviledge. Second, they believe we should NOT HAVE medicare at all. Fact, look it up. That is why I support them.
Old: Go away. You are wrong.
See, one can poke at people even if I am bullshitting through my teeth and saying I agree with the right. Of course I don’t want Medicare taken away from the old. I do find their cries of socialism funny though.
kay
@jwb:
There’s a lot of bad options. To me, the absolute worst case is the political system simply fails, and the private insurers then know that.
I do what I can and then I try to let it go. If it has to go to 1/3 of take-home before people “get it”, then so be it. Because it will, because there’s no brakes.
Perry Como
What, the number of geezers euthanized by Medicare every year isn’t enough for you? Commie.
ksmiami
No the seniors got confused – they thought that the two journalists set free (Youth-in-Asia) meant they were killing off the old folks.
FlipYrWhig
So am I understanding correctly that euthananizing old people is completely off the table now?
The government doesn’t have enough people to pull it off directly.
It requires the help of ACORN death squads, masquerading as census-takers.
General Winfield Stuck
@kay:
I’m not as down on him as many. He is capable, and sometimes acts like an actual journalist, or at least honestly toward what wingers are up to. I kind of keep a scorecard in my head on all these folks, including politicians, to try and consider the things they do right, if any. Tweety is a perennial C- for me. .
General Winfield Stuck
Soylent Seniors/
Yes, I’m going to Hell for that.
kay
@General Winfield Stuck:
I don’t think you get to keep your middle class cred forever. I resent him playing off it, because in my mind he no longer earns it. How long has he been a big-deal pundit? How long is he going to pretend he lives in a row house duplex in Scranton, or wherever?
There’s so few things that lower middle class people can claim, but credibility as lower middle class people is one of them. Why does he get it? I feel the same about Pat Buchanan, incidentally. To me, that phony claim is just a constant annoyance. I swear he plays up the accent.
FlipYrWhig
This wave of paranoid old people is so odd about “socialism.” I’m pretty sure they think it has something to do with giving UNDESERVING people free stuff. They’re very sure that they’re the deserving ones. Deserving of euthanasia, maybe.
FlipYrWhig
This wave of paranoid old people is so odd about “social/ism.” I’m pretty sure they think it has something to do with giving UNDESERVING people free stuff. They’re very sure that they’re the deserving ones. Deserving of euthanasia, maybe.
srv
Sigh. After much searching, I found CMS L457 online, but it is only a Medicare Plan B withdrawal form intended to reinstate coverage.
Apparently, you have to go into a gov’t office to try to withdraw from Medicare. Surely there has to be a form I can pass out to these wingnuts.
FlipYrWhig
Apparently, you have to go into a gov’t office to try to withdraw from Medicare.
I heard ACORN builds false-front “government offices” with giant meatgrinders in the back. And they melt down your jewelry and give it to illegal immigrants.
Just Some Fuckhead
@FlipYrWhig:
That actually happened to a friend of a friend, I know because my friend forwarded me the email and there was nothing on Snopes disproving it. It’s scary.
SiubhanDuinne
@Trinity: It’s been a long time since I’ve watched an episode of “All in the Family,” but IIRC Archie Bunker was a proud union member.
Brick Oven Bill
wilfred;
I do not suggest that all Muslims are extremists, or bad. But probably 10% believe in a literal reading of the Qur’an. I quoted one verse, and as we both know, there are many others. And yes, there are similar verses in the Bible, but not nearly to the extent by any objective measure.
And we could argue about the legal system and hierarchies. And then I could tell you that I have tried and failed to convert my wife to Islam for purely selfish reasons and how I think that Islam, in the end, will win in the West, probably as adopted by some European right-wing population with some allowance for sciences and alcohol that will grow and defeat the flabbier belief systems.
But “The War on al Qaeda” is pretty weak. That kind of makes it difficult to fight back against Mookie al-Sadr and his crew. Or the MILFs. Not like we even need to.
How about, if the “War on Terror” is over, we just pull all of our troops out of the Middle East, leave those people alone to live as they choose, develop our own domestic oil shale deposits, and choose to defend our Constitution for now, banning any displays of political Islam in the US?
And maybe we should not define American Citizens showing up to town hall meetings and challenging elected officials in a civil manner as ‘Mobsters’.
DonkeyKong
What if we snuck into every old wingnuts bedroom and left a single acorn on the pillow.
Would they get the message i.e. Godfather?
wilfred
@Brick Oven Bill:
Oh, I don’t know. For sheer bloodthirstiness you’d have to go a long, long way to beat the OT.
I agree with this, except for the last. How about banning all political expressions of religion? The Romans tolerated early Xianity because of its ‘slave’ theology – enduring this world for salvation in the next. The Muslims are enjoined to make a perfect world in the here and now, but the US is a secular country – let it stay that way, for everybody.
Besides, political Islam only exists where there is a strong harmony between religous and cultural Islam – the stronger each is, the stronger the politics. Those conditions do not exist in the US, or Europe.
Brick Oven Bill
I’d say a better solution would be to revise the Quran and Hadith to be more in line with the ideals most people would like to live by wilfred. How about you propose it?
someguy
It’s not often you see a terrorist movement get funded, trained, and initiate operations right before your eyes. Counting down to the first violent crimes committed by these bozos in 3…2…1…