Matt Y Ben Armbruster has a terrific round-up of neocon (negative) reaction to Bill Clinton’s successful mission to North Korea. It’s all good stuff, but this is my favorite, from J-Pod:
That said, and now that they are out of jeopardy, Ling and Lee deserve to be held accountable, at least in the realm of public opinion, for the unthinkably bad judgment they displayed in their preposterous, vainglorious, and astoundingly naive venture.
It reminds me a bit of this classic from John Derbyshire.
Once again, it’s me and Ralph Peters on the same wavelength, deploring the cowardice of the British sailors and marines kidnapped by Iran. When it happened, I said I hoped the ones who’d shamed their country would be court-martialed on return to Blighty, and given dishonorable discharges after a couple years breaking rocks in the Outer Hebrides (which, believe me—I’ve been there—have a LOT of rocks).
inkadu
Chinky chics from Cali get no respect.
These women are incredibly brave and incredibly noble. It’s obvious. But in the fascist mind set they are criminals.
Hilzoy left too soon.
JK
John Bolton will be playing Ebenezer Scrooge in the 2009 Radio City Hall production of A Christmas Carol.
anon
I’m pretty sure the Corner was also worked up about how no one was brave enough to stop the Va Tech shooter by, uh, getting themselves killed pretending they were in an action movie?
JK
OT
Rep. Todd Akin (R-MO) held a town hall of his own two days ago, and here’s what he said:
“This particular meeting, in a way is a little bit unique,” said Akin. “Different people from Washington, DC, have come back to their districts and have town hall meetings, and they almost got lynched.”
The audience then broke out into laughter and applause.
“I would assume you’re not approving lynchings, because we don’t want to do that,” Akin said, putting his hand to his neck in imitation of choking, which got audience laughing some more. “But the point is, people are really upset at some of this legislation, and with very good reason they were upset.”
h/t tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/gop-congressman-jokes-dems-almost-got-lynched.php?ref=fpa
AnotherBruce
It’s almost like there is a requirement for these guys to be on the evil side of every issue.
Keith
I’m witholding judgement until Chuck Norris weighs in on the matter.
linda
so the reichwing is now advocating punishment for these two women on behalf of north korea.
it’s amazing what a bottomless pit of hate will enable…
Lola
No surprise, after all, Republicans were trying to blame Obama for the Somali pirate thing while it was going on. Very few Republicans gave him credit afterward. For some reason, Republicans sore-loser, nasty, immature streaks are rewarded by the media and, often, the voters.
harlana pepper
Saucer of milk, neocons?
joes527
From everything I’ve heard, John Bolton’s complaint with the whole thing is that by going in, and negotiating, and being SUCCESSFUL — it gives negotiations a good name.
And that doesn’t sit well with him
awesom0
There are also unconfirmed reports that Ling and Lee were on the Chinese side of the border and snatched up by N. Korean agents. This may or may not be true and I guess we’ll find out shortly. I’m sure they’re being debriefed by US intelligence.
Besides, if a Republican president were in office, these two ladies would be heralded as brave souls, risking life and limb to expose and undermine a murderous regime. True patriots they’d be!
SGEW
Once again, the right-wing response to everything is:
Can we oppose Obama on this issue? Options: Yes or yes.
Litlebritdifrnt
Personally I have a boat load more respect for Bill Clinton after yesterday, he basically offered himself up as a sacrificial lamb (and photo op) to save the lives of two young ladies whom he did not know. He could have said “hell no let someone else go and be your clown” but he didn’t, and he got the job done. Good job Big Dawg.
awesom0
Correction: Ling and Lee ARE brave souls, risking life and limb to expose and undermine a murderous regime!
It’s just that, if a Republican were president, this would be acknowledged by the right.
Bernie
Too bad those reporters and Brit sailors weren’t manly men like J-Pod and Derbs.
Brian J
Wow. It’s so much easier to get off one’s high horse, walk one’s fat ass into a building in Manhattan, and write inane comments about the brave acts of these journalists trying to write about the plight of North Korea, isn’t it? It’s probably even easier than being very enthusiastic about war when you yourself have never thought about joining the military, much less actually putting on a uniform.
For all of the justifiable criticism some commentators get, like Tom Friedman’s ability to boil everything down to a taxi cab conversation or something, it’s stuff like that which really makes me sick. It’s a sickening combination of arrogance, ignorance, and nastiness than really sets these clowns apart.
Zifnab
So, to make sure we’re on the same page…
Clinton going to N. Korea to free journalists: Gives N. Korea too much positive attention and publicity.
Journalists going to N. Korea to report on social abuses: preposterous, vainglorious, and astoundingly naive with unthinkably bad judgment for attempting to address crimes committed within the region.
So here’s what I get out of this. The GOP pundits believe that N. Korea is a bad place. End of story. Going in to N. Korea to collect evidence on the crimes and human rights abuses taking place is an entirely worthless endeavor. We already know N. Korea is bad. Isn’t it enough to just sit back in your plush leather arm chairs, sip at your high balls and cocktails, and chat about what a terrible country N. Korea is?
If we want to “do” something about N. Korea, we’ll embargo the country (translation: we’ll only trade with them off the table and at higher prices). If we REALLY want to “do” something to N. Korea, we’ll “sanction” them. Which is a lot like embargoing them, except we cut off food and medical supplies. If we REALLY REALLY want to “do” something to N. Korea, we’ll threaten to bomb them via the resurrected soul of Douglas MacArthur.
But if we wanted to send in private citizens to cause trouble, we’d just cut a nine digit check to Blackwater and let them figure this shit out.
Stefan
That said, and now that they are out of jeopardy, Ling and Lee deserve to be held accountable, at least in the realm of public opinion, for the unthinkably bad judgment they displayed in their preposterous, vainglorious, and astoundingly naive venture.
You know, you change “Ling and Lee” to “Bush and Cheney” and that suddenly makes sense.
adolphus
Not to defend these dopes, but throughout this saga I have wondered how various political actors would behave or what they would say if the incident were reversed. Two journalists from North Korea or Cuba or Venezuela or some other not-friendly to America country are caught coming across the border from Mexico (GSD-forbid across the water from Cuba) investigating human trafficking or the INS or maybe the minutemen in the US is caught by border patrol. I’m not sure how it would play out but I think we wouldn’t refer to them as “hostages” at the least.
Just thinking out loud.
canuckistani
The wingers I know are claiming that the photo of Clinton and KJI together legitimizes a terrible dictator in the eyes of his own people, and that was what he wanted all along.
RSA
Actually, the byline is Ben Armbruster.
My first reaction to the neocons’ response was, “Well, how would you have done things differently?” And then I realized that the Bush-Cheney-Bolton crowd, in response to N. Korea’s kidnapping of Americans, would have invaded Burma.
joes527
@awesom0:
And there are (unreliable) reports that they admitted that hey knowingly and purposely crossed the border illegally. Since those reports come from North Korean State run TV … they should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
That said, anyone who buys whatever story comes out in the next couple of days without corroborating evidence would be just as foolish as those who swallowed the official North Korean party line.
Given the strong national interests in them being villains/victims, the likelihood that a clear convincing explanation of what actually happened EVER seeing the light of day seems remote.
Ash Can
Not to mention that Ling and Lee were in North Korea to report for a news venture founded by Al Gore.
Listening to the right-wingers whine about these reporters reminds me of how so many of us Americans and non-Japanese were dumbfounded a few years ago when a Japanese relief worker was rescued from captors in Iraq and went home to face not relief and joy but shame, disgrace, and financial (if not legal) liability for having the temerity to defy official warnings about traveling to Iraq in the first place, then putting her government through the expense and inconvenience of having to rescue her. (I’m recalling this off the top of my head, so I may be getting a detail or two wrong.) I wonder how many of the right-wingers now bitching about Ling and Lee felt then that the poor Japanese woman was being treated wrongfully by her countrymen.
Brick Oven Bill
I had a Korean roommate just out of college with a girlfriend from the peninsula who came over to the states to visit him with her family. They brought some excellent Korean pork with sides for us all to share in the apartment. They were a very beautiful family.
This lady walked six feet behind him and slightly to one side or the other, I cannot remember to which side, as we walked to the bus in the morning.
If this woman was representative of Korean women in general, Korean women know their place and then some. These gender-based traditions were bred into that culture through God-knows how many thousands of generations of survival struggle in a harsh environment.
Then these two yahoos get exposed to our current round of American excess on The View and think, hey, this is great for me as a woman. Liberation! And connive to export these great modern Western ideas back to North Korea and enlighten that backwards country, for the betterment of the world. Then they are again re-acquainted with reality in the form of a concrete cubicle with a hole in floor.
This is why I am uncomfortable with a female pilot. That New York commuter plane was piloted by a woman (dead, pilot error). That Washington DC commuter train was driven by a woman (dead, who knows). Clinton pushed Kara Hultgreen to be America’s first female F-14 pilot (dead, pilot error). Flying a jet is not easy. America needs to accept that biological differences between human beings exist, even in a democracy that lets women vote.
These two reporters should be made to repay all taxpayer expenses involved with gaining their release, as they acted stupidly.
The Grand Panjandrum
The willful ignorance of the neocons doesn’t surprise me. And as James Fallows hinted, could it have been an opportunity for the US to send a message from our current President to warn the North Korean’s about it’s alleged nuclear dalliance in Burma? We may never know but it wouldn’t surprise me.
DougJ
Actually, the byline is Ben Armbruster.
Thanks. I fixed it.
Ash Can
@canuckistani:
So these wingers are basically saying that, after living their entire lives under a brutal, sociopathic dictatorship, the
citizenssurvivors of North Korea are seeing one fucking photograph of KJI with Bill Fucking Clinton, and that just erases everything that went before?Brilliant. More evidence of wingnut anti-logic in action.
The Grand Panjandrum
Shorter B.O.B.: I’m feeling all George Soldini today.
Gus
Hey, don’t forget that according to Hugh Hewitt, the Empire State Building is the front lines in the war on terror.
Left Coast Tom
I can see why the neocons are upset. Bill Clinton accomplished something. That goes against everything the neocons believe in.
PeakVT
Image the reaction from the neocons if Clinton’s trip results in a diplomatic breakthrough a few months down the road. To be shown up by a combination of the Clenis, Hitlery, and Barak Mohammad Guevara Obama? Oh, my….
ADM
BOB:
If you are a real person and not some parody, do you mind slowing down and explaining the transition from “Korean women that know their place” to female pilots?
Corner Stone
This is just too much. Who’s playing with the BoB handle?
Evinfuilt
@Left Coast Tom:
If Clinton went into the meeting with a bomb strapped to his chest, then they’d be happy. Very very happy.
D.N. Nation
It’s adorable how these preening crybabies think they’re entitled to everyone caring about what they think.
Paul L.
They forgot the criticism of the Liar in Chief doing what he does best.
Ash
Why are conservatives so damn scared of North Korea? While the rest of the world understands that it’s a country full of poor people being run by an infantile dictator who enjoys spending his days throwing tantrums, the neo-cons are quivering in their boots about nuclear weapons and dangerous regimes.
Oh B.O.B., I hope a woman chops of your (obviously small) dick one day and we’ll see how you feel then.
Sentient Puddle
I don’t know, that BoB comment looks a little suspicious to me. Seems to me the real BoB would be a tad bit less overt in his sexism.
ADM
“If this woman was representative of Korean women in general, Korean women know their place and then some. These gender-based traditions were bred into that culture through God-knows how many thousands of generations of survival struggle in a harsh environment.”
Umm… no. Female subservience to men in the Korean culture has nothing to do with “thousands of generations of survival struggle in a harsh environment.” Female subservience to men did not repel Japanese forces from Korea in 1597, nor did it help the Joseon dynasty persevere through Japanese imperialism in 1910.
You should be really careful advocating harsh punishments for stupidity.
Corner Stone
@Paul L.:
Sure. Why not?
whatsleft
The real BOB’s handle leads back to his website. No sale, false BOB!
Jason
@canuckistani: “Terrible dictators” don’t generally need legitimation. That’s the whole point of tyranny – it’s self-legitimating. Unless your friends meant that he wasn’t very good at it?
Myself, I like the “at least.” The reporters need to be tried – at least! – in the court of public opinion. What other “trials” is he indicating for the best-case scenario? Court martial? Hot or Not, Live? Judge Judy?
Zifnab
@The Grand Panjandrum: Hey, it could have been a lot of things. A political opportunity. A duel purpose mission. A fact-finding expedition disguised as a rescue mission. Perhaps these two individuals have significant political connections we are unaware of. Perhaps this was just a good excuse to visit and check up on Little Kim.
But who cares! The neo-cons only has one note to play, and he’s going to play the hell out of it. Given that Dick Morris had this to say from the get go –
I question if the wingnuts even know what was going on. Perhaps they just trouted out the talking points from when Jesse Jackson went in to free US troops picked up in Serbia under Milosovich. Perhaps they’re running on scripts older than that.
I think the bottom line is that they’re just bitter this whole thing didn’t devolve into a Carter-esque hostage crisis.
SGEW
B.O.B. has openly stated that he believes that women are biologically inferior to men in many respects, over and over again. He has also stated that he believes that caucasians are biologically superior to other races. He has also called for the repeal of the 14th, the 19th, and the 24th Amendments.
He is a self-admitted misogynist and racist. Anyone who’s seen his stuff over the years recognizes this, and he does not deny it.
SGEW
@whatsleft: B.O.B.’s website has been down for several months now. Check the archives.
Brick Oven Bill
There was a fake last night but not now. Success in geopolitics and success in handling a high performance aircraft have a common denominator ADM, situational awareness.
My theory is that there is only a given amount of evolutionary energy that has been expended in each of us, measured as a unit of time. This evolutionary energy has been channeled into nurture and lactation in the female gender, has been likewise channeled into physical strength and situational awareness in the male gender.
This is why the average man can bench-press more weight than the average female, although they cannot lactate. This is also why the persons that foolishly thought that they could enlighten North Korea with their new found knowledge from The View were female. This is also why Sully Sullenberger was able to save the lives of his passengers that day.
My Korean friend’s girlfriend seemed to be very happy, by the way.
JackieBinAZ
We are the fairer sex, after all.
SGEW
[insert standard formal request for banning Brick Oven Bill for overt misogyny here]
Hunter Gathers
@SGEW: The only thing BOB hates more than women and non-whites is himself. The self-hatred, disguised by Limbaughian bombasity, drips from his posts like a leaky faucet.
All he is looking to do is to upset anyone without a penis, so he can gloat about his ‘superior’ emotional control. I imagine he’s been rolled by every woman he’s ever known.
CapMidnight
I liked John Bolton‘s reward of Fux News airtime, to mewl about “classic case of rewarding bad behavior.”
gwangung
On top. In charge of the pocketbook.
Brick Oven Bill
Nothing is meant to intend the superiority of the male gender. Both genders have their own critical roles in society. The thing that sucks for us males is that we are expendable, which is not the case with females. This is also by grand design.
But as a society, I do agree that these women should be made accountable for their stupid decisions, which cannot be excused regardless of the negative influences which have surrounded them for most of their lives.
Let’s just say that you can feel safe going to the gym with me Jackie.
Mike G
Shorter neocons:
Those Chinese San Francisco chicks need to sit in a North Korean gulag forever so we are not yet again embarrassed by how wrong we are.
gwangung
And BOB’s role is to occupy the doghouse.
Ash Can
You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.
Don’t tell us that reporters shouldn’t chase dangerous stories. Tell Ernie Pyle, Robert Capa, and all the other war correspondents, both living and deceased, who not only got off their fat asses and did some actual reporting, they did it in full knowledge that they were in harm’s way. They took their life’s work seriously and knew that this was what journalism was all about.
It’s not the fault of actual journalists if you can’t understand this.
kay
The best thing about the Clintons may be how they drive conservatives completely crazy.
I had forgotten how funny it can be. Just a few short months ago neoconservatives were pandering to Hillary in a completely transparent ploy to smear Obama.
Now things are back to normal. Seems like old times.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
B.O.B. may be one of the most useful commenters here. He reminds us all what can happen if a spoofer gets sucked too deeply into the game and tries to parody the KKK instead of just the theocons or the war-hawks. A very sad cautionary tale.
The FBI didn’t let Donny Brasco whack someone to join the Mafia, B.O.B. They pulled him out before it got that far, even though it blew his cover and cost them some high-level criminal convictions.
James Gary
Re the post title: To live in this Village, you must be tough tough tough tough tough tough tough!
Ash Can
@Ash Can: OK, now that I’m over my hyperventilating, I do see how this was likely just a “shorter Podhoretz” and not a direct quote. I got it all out of my system, and feel much better now.
Demo Woman
During the first 6 1/2 months the Navy Seal rescued sailors from the pirates, an American journalist was released from Iran and two journalist were pardoned in North Korea.
Let’s remember what Bush was doing August 6, 2001.
kth
That New York commuter plane was piloted by a woman (dead, pilot error). That Washington DC commuter train was driven by a woman (dead, who knows).
Not that either anecdote would prove jack shit about the safety of female passenger pilots, but the woman was the co-pilot in the Buffalo crash, the pilot was a man (neither of whom had much training thanks to the penny-wise-pound-foolish airline they worked for).
Demo Woman
@Demo Woman: Where’s the edit button. During the first 6 1/2 months of the Obama administration.
Florida Cynic
I note that John Bolton seems to be the MSM go-to guy for comment on this. NPR had him on yesterday afternoon, and I almost rear-ended someone because I was screaming at the radio. To top it off, he was condescending and rude to the host. Why anyone cares what that asshole thinks is just beyond me.
SGEW
@Demo Woman:
Did you realize the importance of today’s date, or was that just a wild guess?
Cripes.
Sentient Puddle
And I was about to guess that Bush was vacationing on August 6, 2001…
Demo Woman
@SGEW: After watching the 9/11 hearings, that date will be with me always. Wonder what John Bolton was doing?
Demo Woman
@Sentient Puddle: Unfortunately, he was and continued to do so.
SGEW
@Demo Woman: Good catch with the date (I’m terrible at remembering dates – which reminds me, my friend’s birthday is next week!).
As to what John Bolton was doing, he was busy waxing his glorious, glorious mustache. With the blood of children.
satby
@Demo Woman: John Bolton was doing what he’s been doing every day of his life: being a complete dickwad.
ChrisB
@Demo Woman:
Comment of the day. Thank you.
(“Isn’t it a fact, Dr. Rice, that the August 6 PDB warned against possible attacks in this country? And I ask you whether you recall the title of that PDB?”)
demimondian
@SGEW: It’s hard for me to imagine that anyone thinks of today’s date as significant for anything except this reference.
Molly
@Brick Oven Bill: This is why I am uncomfortable with a female
pilot.Fixed.
ChrisB
It’s not 9/11, and it’s not Pearl Harbor Day, but August 6, 2001 should also live in infamy.
Where to rank it? Perhaps after April 14, 1865, November 22, 1963, April 4, 1968, and June 5, 1968; maybe near March 25, 1911 (the Triangle Shirtwaist Co. fire).
Demo Woman
@demimondian: Wow, you are correct.
I just did some surfing on several progressive blogs and did see reference to Bush on Firedoglake but none about Hiroshima.
Brachiator
@Left Coast Tom:
I can see why the neocons are upset. Bill Clinton accomplished something.
Even more than that. Bill’s appearance inspired confidence and a sense of safety in the minds of the two journalists:
Had Dubya been the first person they saw, they would have thought, “Oh, man. We are so screwed.”
SGEW
Once again showing my total inability to remember dates. Hell, I even had (distant) family who were killed in Hiroshima. Brain fail.
[One year I forgot my own birthday, and had to be reminded by my sister.]
PaulB
@Paul L.:
ROFL…. Paul, it’s so nice to see that you’re still unhinged. Had you actually gone to the source and/or done a 30-second Google search, you would have seen that CNN was not reporting, they were *quoting* the official Korean Central News Agency. In other words, this was a propaganda piece from North Korea and both you and your chums fell for it, hook, line, and sinker.
SGEW
When will Paul L. start decrying the U.S. policy of lacing our pro-democracy leaflets with deadly disease vectors as the North Korean news agencies allege?
Kyle
On August 6, 2001, Bush was Given a Security Briefing Entitled, “Bin Laden Determined to Strike In U.S.”
Happy Brush-Clearin’ Day, you dumbfucks Repigs! You voted for this tool, you own the stain of his misrule forever.
Neo
It sure looks like the guy on the far left is engaged in some sort of hand gesture. It’s the inverted Obama “sign of progress“
Comrade Kevin
@SGEW: If that was actually true, Paul L. would probably approve of it.
Brachiator
@Brick Oven Bill:
Why do you bother posting stuff that is false and easily verifiable? Do you not know how to use the InterTubes, or how to do a basic search?
The plane was not piloted by a woman. Worse for you, the facts do not bear out your fantasy of a manly man, pinnacle of evolution, showing a feeble little nurturing lady, how things should be done. In fact, there is some evidence that the doofus was trying to hit on her and impress her. Too bad for everyone involved that he did not know what he was doing.
In short, the male pilot was incompetent. Much like you (Captain’s Training Faulted In Buffalo Plane Crash).
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519718,00.html
And there is also this:
Paul L. They forgot the criticism of the Liar in Chief doing what he does best.
You are sadly blind to what really happened here. The North Koreans went out of their way to make this almost entirely focused on Kim Yong-il, who has been acknowledged to be seriously ill; conspicuously non-involved were his successor and any other high ranking North Korean officials. And on our side, despite whatever prestige attaches to a former president, Clinton was a private citizen and not empowered to negotiate on behalf of the United States of America. The North Koreans wanted to save face for Kim, and the US wanted the journalists out. The deal had been worked out in advance, and Clinton was nothing more than a face.
Mission Accomplished.
If, heaven forbid, we had to go to war against North Korea tomorrow, nothing that happened concerning the retrieval of the two journalists would prevent it.
asiangrrlMN
Good lord this drivel is making me very, very, very tired. Seriously! Bill Clinton went and retrieved these two women without giving anything in return but a fucking photo op! WTF?
I know the far right are anti-talking to any country, but seriously, STFU.
Oh, and can anyone tell me how Bill Clinton got the nickname of The Big Dog in the first place? I assume it has something to do with his personal prowess, but I am not sure. At any rate, yeah, suck it, GOP!
bago
Maude Lebowski: In a sense, yes. My art has been commended as being strongly vaginal which bothers some men. The word itself makes some men uncomfortable. Vagina.
Demo Woman
Wikipedia does not have August 6, 2001 listed as on their events category. Seems like someone savvier than I, could fix that.
Dr. Morpheus
Doesn’t make me feel uncomfortable in the slightest.
I can’t speak for all men, but I like vaginas.
Nutella
It’s not completely clear what Ling and Lee were doing but some reports say they were reporting in China and were grabbed by N Korean border guards. Possibly they went over the border deliberately but that seems unlikely.
Whatever actually happened there, their behavior seems to be about a million times more sensible than the Christian aid workers in Taliban Afghanistan who showed a movie about Jesus to the locals when they knew perfectly well that Christian proselytizing was illegal. Remember all the celebrating about their rescue? link
Tax Analyst
gwangung said: (In quoting BOB)
“Nothing is meant to intend the superiority of the male gender. Both genders have their own critical roles in society.
And BOB’s role is to occupy the doghouse.”
Uh-uh…BOB’s function is to create a floor level of wrong-headed, misogynistic stupidity based on silly non-sequitir anecdotal observations. If he has done his job right you will not find a more ludicrous, non-sensical comment in this thread.
Good job, BOB. Well done.
pattonbt
Two things:
1) This is why I thought having Hillary as SoS was great. It brought the one two punch of her and the Big Dog out internationally where they are still lionized. Hillary gets to act as the official head, Bill as the ‘unofficial’ fixer. Good to see it working. Congrats to all involved.
2) Who cares if Bill promised Kim a role in Transformers 3 or gave Kim 50,000 cases of the finest scotch or whatever. Who cares if he said Kim is his bestest buddy, coolest guy, smartest man filled with awesomosity. We have two citizens back home safe and sound with little or no sacrifice. A great day for the US. Sad to see that there is a minority out there that is just so venal and hateful that they can not even take one second to step back from the insanity and applaud a wonderful story. Jebus do I hate these people.