The title of Steve Pearlstein’s piece on health care reform says it all “Republicans Propagating Falsehoods in Attacks on Health-Care Reform“:
There are lots of valid criticisms that can be made against the health reform plans moving through Congress — I’ve made a few myself. But there is no credible way to look at what has been proposed by the president or any congressional committee and conclude that these will result in a government takeover of the health-care system. That is a flat-out lie whose only purpose is to scare the public and stop political conversation.
Under any plan likely to emerge from Congress, the vast majority of Americans who are not old or poor will continue to buy health insurance from private companies, continue to get their health care from doctors in private practice and continue to be treated at privately owned hospitals.
The centerpiece of all the plans is a new health insurance exchange set up by the government where individuals, small businesses and eventually larger businesses will be able to purchase insurance from private insurers at lower rates than are now generally available under rules that require insurers to offer coverage to anyone regardless of health condition. Low-income workers buying insurance through the exchange — along with their employers — would be eligible for government subsidies. While the government will take a more active role in regulating the insurance market and increase its spending for health care, that hardly amounts to the kind of government-run system that critics conjure up when they trot out that oh-so-clever line about the Department of Motor Vehicles being in charge of your colonoscopy.
How long til he ends up like Dan Froomkin?
lost in GA
I’ve experienced an eight year colonoscopy from the previous administration; perhaps the DMV wouldn’t do much worse. It’s gonna hurt either way, but at least I know what I’m getting with the DMV.
Chuck Butcher
As though there is actually something radical or otherwise scary for the nutwing to protest. They’ll hang him in effigy
General Winfield Stuck
Ya think?
By next week they’ll be saying the Government will be getting between patients and Obama’s Witchdoctors.
maye
John Kerry fabricated his purple heart. I heard that once during another August recess.
Rommie
The last time the nutwing was this desperate was when they c-blocked The Goracle. I think Al looked into the Wingularity and stepped away from the madness. I don’t think we are stepping away this time.
donovong
No doubt, Mr. Pearlstein will have herds of wingnuts assailing his office in the morning, led by George Will and Krappyhammer.
Jim
And he doesn’t even mention the Soylent Green provision to kill your Grandma
Stop Medicare
@Jim: Jim, did you know that more elderly people die under the Medicare system than under private insurance? Why do you think that is? Because the government is not as good as the free market.
Punchy
“Republicans creating falsehoods” is up there with “TriDelts put out” and “they could charge 5x what they do for toilet paper and they’d still sell the same amount yet make a mint” in terms of the most clearly obvious truisms in our universe.
jwb
@stopmedicare
Maybe because Medicare patients are older? What a dipsh*t.
gex
@Stop Medicare: That’s not at all related to the fact that private insurance does whatever it can to avoid insuring the elderly and that no one lives forever.
Jim
Old people die? STOP THE PRESSES!!!
I never saw a parody troll here before. Or do they delete them?
jwb
Having overheard a number of older folks bitching about government involvement in health care earlier today, my sense was they thought that they thought Medicare was going to be changed, in particular that the cost savings Obama has been talking about was going to mean that Medicare coverage was going to be reduced.
demimondian
@Jim: You have seen a great many parody trolls here — they’re just very, very good. Trust me, though, BJuice has the best parody trolls in the business.
demimondian
@Jim: By the way, I would also say that some of our best parody trolls turned out to be real.
jwb
To clarify: I’m not agreeing with the seniors here, just reporting what I heard them saying.
General Winfield Stuck
@Stop Medicare:
Your website looks legit for a teabagging fool. You’re either an enterprising spoof, or dumb as a sack of hammers. Time will reveal which.
conumbdrum
From the provided link to Stop Medicare’s website:
Q. Are the elderly people enrolled in Medicare happy with their experience?
A. NO! Among those 65 or older, the people most likely to be enrolled in Medicare, only 80 percent rated Medicare favorably. Worse, only 62 percent of 65 and older felt that Medicare was “well run.”
Q. What can I do to help stop this national nightmare?
A. We’re glad you asked! We are putting together a list of Congressmen that are against socialized medicine. We suggest that you call, fax, email, write or show up to their office in person to show your support. We also have a list of townhall meetings where you can thank them, in person, for wanting to end Medicare. Let them know that you are tired of Medicare and the government should end the program. Our nation’s elderly people should rely on the free market for all of their health care needs.
I’m going to ease my way out onto a very creaky limb and postulate that Stop Welfare is, in fact, a brilliant parody of a dumbass gooper… that, or a honest-to-Jesus moron.
I miss the days when parodies of right wing yahoos were easy to distinguish from the real thing.
DougJ
You’re either an enterprising spoof,
It’s an obvious spoof.
mainsailset
I’m listening to some of the Richard P Feynman audio tapes and a phrase hit me…he was describing the Art of War and one of the tactic (used efficiently by the Russians) and now used by the Rep’s is the art of “Paralysis”.
Once you can create paralysis in your enemy you have won. Feynman always came across humble but his scientific approach to all problems was as powerful as they were creative. Paralysis, mmm
General Winfield Stuck
@DougJ:
Well, you’re the resident expert on these things DougJ. So obvious spoof it is.
Americans for America
Stop Medicare is a guaranteed winner. How could that policy position possibly be a loser? Why don’t we privatize Social Security while we’re at it.
Montysano
@Stop Medicare:
Before everyone gets too worked up, click Stop Medicare’s link.
Brilliant, sir. Well done.
Stop Medicare
Of course you can’t argue my points so you have to use ad hominems. For anyone who thinks I’m “spoofing” something, there are hundreds of thousands us in America that are tired of watching our country go down the tubes. Contrary to the Democrat talking points the people showing up to town halls all over the country are hard working Americans that don’t want to see our health care in the hands of government bureaucrats.
Americans for America
@DougJ:
Yea. I wished I could remember some of the better ones names. We’ve had a couple of decent trolls as well, but its been almost a year.
demimondian
@Americans for America: I’m with you, AfA. And, while we’re at it, let’s privatize VA benefits, too!
Our loyal soldiers are serving in the Middle East to protect American freedoms. They shouldn’t be forced to come back to the United States to depend on a Soviet-style bureaucracy just so that they get better care at lower prices; they should be allowed to fight for their own care on their own terms. We should give them individual care credits which they can stock up and leave to their heirs when they die!
Americans for America
I was thinking of using this new handle as a spoof but it would have been too obvious.
ominira
@General Winfield Stuck: I vote for enterprising spoof (site registered today using domains by proxy according to whois). Anyone running a website to end medicare while stating on the same site that 80% of people 65 years and older rate medicare *favorably* has to be a spoof.
Americans for America
@demimondian: Actually we should just give them all a debit card and let them pay for all the healthcare they need at “market prices” then R’s have a shit fit when we get the bill.
General Winfield Stuck
@Stop Medicare:
And what would those points be? That more seniors die under Medicare than private insurance. That’s like saying more people die of being born than not.
demimondian
@Americans for America: No, no, no. The debit card should draw on a real account. That way, our Heroes(TM) would even be free to trade away the value of their health care to meet other needs — like food.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
DougJ I don’t think Pearlstein runs the same risk Froomkin did. He isn’t criticizing the protected class (i.e. Krauthammer) at WaPo. Froomkin’s sin, IMO, was just that. I don’t believe for a second it had anything to do with web hits.
Darkie in the White House?!
Ah want muh country baaaaaaaack!1
Dave C
@Stop Medicare:
Sir, I tip my hat to your subtle yet brilliant parody.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
@demimondian: Goldman Sachs has a debit card hooked directly into the Treasury I have no problem with giving Vets the same access.
Stop Medicare
If you understood the incentives it would be obvious. The government wants people to die earlier so it can extract more wealth through the death tax. If a senior citizen lives too long they can drain he can drain his estate and rob the government of what it thinks it is entitled to. Private insurance has no such incentive. As long as a person is alive they pay premiums, so the the private insurer makes money off of the person.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
@Stop Medicare: Is that you steve s?
Stop Medicare
@ominira: Of course we are going to hide our names. None of us want federal agents knocking on our doors thanks to Obama’s snitch program. I bet at least a half dozen people on this site have already turned our site in because we have a different point of view. No one wants to be on the White House enemies list.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
@Stop Medicare: Are you sure they still call it the “White” House?
Stop Medicare
Forgot the link. White House enemies list:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/state/stories/DN-cornynflag_06nat.ART.State.Edition1.4bb4d44.html
General Winfield Stuck
This would explain Obama’s euthanasia initiative for rich grannies. It’s all becoming clear now.
Kryptik
Considering the level of crazy going around, I’m worryingly loath to instantly label Stop Medicare as a parody.
And honestly, that in and of itself is a depressing thought. Another constant reminder that satire is increasingly obsolete when real life is (or at least can be) even more absurd.
Zifnab
@demimondian: Oh yeah, sure. Turn our brave men and women into a pack of welfare queens.
I’d just pay a private contracting firm run by the husband of the House Armed Services Committee to come up with a better solution to VA benefits. Then I’d subcontract out the labor to another private firm run by the brother of the VA Senatorial subcommittee chairman. That subcontractor would be in charge of paying dozens of firms throughout Virginia and Maryland with collecting all the information necessary to execute an effective program. This would create cost savings that we can use to slash benefits by leveraging the efficiencies of the free market.
The we can cut the VA budget in half while employing thousands of entrepreneurial Americans with lobbyist connections on Capital Hill. Our saves can be funneled into tax credits used to subsidize independent businesses that manage insurance for veterans, thus compounding the savings. Finally, we outsource all the medical care provided to soldiers through the VA to doctoral contractors, deregulating the standards of medicine to maximize the savings in hiring dozens of freelance medical practitioners employed by domestic companies that facilitate the immigration of specialists with N1B1 applications.
The program will cost less than a million dollars in implementation and save the US Government $17 bajillion dollars in tax payer funds. And the increased tax revenue generated by the medical tax credits will have the program paying for itself before it is even fully implemented.
Don’t worry about finding all these contractors and subcontractors and immigrant free agents. The Vice President was the CEO of an excellent development firm that can handle all our needs. Just let us handle the bidding process. We’re going to run the VA like a real business.
General Winfield Stuck
@Kryptik:
Great point. I’ve been reading the wingnut blogs today, and they are all striving for Peak Self-Parody. Stop Medicare actually sounds slightly sane in comparison. Which is highly scary.
shoutingattherain
@Stop Medicare:
Now who can argue with that?
I think we’re all indebt to
Gabby JohnsonStop Medicare for stating what needed to be said. I am particulary glad that these lovely children are here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed the courage little seen in this day and age.parksideq
From Pearlstein’s keyboard to FSM’s noodly appendage:
Between the Tampa teabaggery tempest and the health insurance industry’s murder-by-spreadsheet racket, this bill is both literally and figuratively do or die. I’m only 24 so I’ve (hopefully) got plenty of life to live, but this may well be the most important piece of legislation that Congress debates in my lifetime. And I go to bed every night hoping they don’t fuck it up.
@Stop Medicare: Seeing that my grandma (may she RIP) had her life extended by a year or two because of Medicare, in her memory I kindly request that you DIAF.
stibbert
speaking of Froomkin, wasn’t he supposed to start working for HuffPo at the end of July? I haven’t seen that he’s posted anything there, yet.
calling all toasters
@Stop Medicare: Did you know that you only find things in the last place you look for them? Why would anyone look in the second-to-last place, when they know that can’t be right?
Ash Can
@conumbdrum:
LOL! OK, that seals it for me. That’s a tell if ever I’ve seen one. Spoof away, Stop Medicare. More power to you.
And I do want to direct everyone’s attention to the Dallas News link S-M provides at #35. That’s a fairly important story, about the White House setting up an e-mail address for people to report disinformation about health care reform that’s being spread with reckless abandon. The folks at 1600 PA aren’t oblivious to the fact that there’s shit going down, and they’re asking us to help them out. Let’s oblige them.
burnspbesq
Well, lookee here. A letter from Chuck Schumer.
” On behalf of Sen. Menendez, and in honor of your exceptionsal support of the DSCC in the past, I would like to extend an invitation to you to become a part of the President’s Senate Majority Leadership Council by making a contribution of $500 or more.”
Dear Sen. Schumer,
You’ll get your $500 the day President Obama signs a health care reform bill with a meaningful public option.
Very truly yours,
/s/burnspbesq
Dave Noyes
How long til he ends up like Dan Froomkin?
Steve Pearlstein??
… Uhhhh… How about… “NEVER”?
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
I’ve always thought it’s funny that anyone is considering patient satisfaction in this debate. Our healthcare problems aren’t that people don’t LIKE their insurance, it’s that they don’t have it, or that it’s sufficiently shoddy to bankrupt them in the event of an emergency.
And patients are FANTASTICALLY terrible at judging the quality of medical care. If you look at patient satisfaction in different countries with vastly different modes of healthcare, you get similar satisfaction levels–because EVERYONE hates healthcare on some level.
I recently had a conversation with my grandfather (pre-diabetic) who was complaining about his physician browbeating him to lose weight and exercise to stave off diabetes. He insisted that his doctor was a crank, that it would be far easier to take diabetes medication than to change his habits (since you “can’t teach and old dog new tricks”), and that they should just prescribe him diabetes medication. Of course his doctor refused, much to his irritation; he wants to change his doctor now.
Of course, I told him he was an idiot, and that having diabetes even with medication would ultimately be far worse and more unpleasant than the minor inconvenience of diet and exercise.
But you see this attitude all the time. From the parent that just wants the doc to prescribe antibiotics when their kid is sick to “make things easier”, to the people with orthopedic injuries who insist on expensive, painful surgery rather than the better but less immediate fix of physical therapy–patients are miserable at judging what good medical care would be for them. How then can they actually tell if their medical care is good? “Like it” is a useless metric, and is likely to be anticorrelated to good care, if anything.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
I guess what I’m trying to say, is that the only metric that really should be looked at when determining healthcare policy is health outcomes; satisfaction, spending, etc are all red-herrings that can easily create a disfunctional system if they’re focused on.
Ash Can
@The Main Gauche of Mild Reason: Definitely. That’s why it makes me crazy when Republicans and other unhelpful idiots say that since a majority of Americans are satisfied with their health care coverage, we shouldn’t make any changes. Well, what about the obscenely huge number of Americans who don’t have any coverage, you dickweeds?
Klaus
@StopMedicare
Too late. Your IP address has been logged and sent to the Obamastapo. You will receive a visit within the hour.
Brian J
@Stop Medicare:
Did you know that that’s the sort of outlandish claim that needs to be backed up with, um, actual evidence?
We’re all waiting.
Mnemosyne
@Kryptik:
Definitely parody. I’ve seen this idea brewing on the blogs for a week or so. You can figure out who it is just by frequenting some of the more popular blogs.
Wile E. Quixote
I just wish that instead of saying “propagating falsehoods” he said “lying” instead. But that’s just me and it was an excellent article, I say about three more stories like this before he gets axed like Froomkin and replaced with someone more objective, like you know, McMegan McArdle.
Irony Abounds
Rather than trying to analyze the arguments, think of clever rebuttals, and/or shout at the top of my lungs, I’ve reached the conclusion that, as Curly in City Slickers stated, the secret of life is one thing, just one thing. That one thing is that Republicans are dicks.
jcricket
The most important thing, you know, is to be “fair”. And by fair I mean never, ever investigate who might be telling the truth. Instead simply put some affirmative action policies in place by which there’s always an equal amount of conservatives, libertarians and conservative democrats. No progressives please. Too shrill.
Ash
Jesus, people were ARRESTED at a St. Louis town hall.
Dear teabaggers: STOP BEING SO FUCKING CRAZY.
Please.
Radon Chong
@jwb:
Radon Chong
not supposed to be a blockquote up there…
JGabriel
jcricket:
That story, at least as TPM is reporting it, is pretty entertaining.
You see, the teabaggers are so paranoid that actual Democrats might show up for Democratic town halls, that they’re complaining about being excluded from the events in favor of said Democrats.
So, when staff for SEIU, who organized the event, showed up and were let in to do their jobs, the teabaggers went apeshit. PROOF! that Democrats are being let into Democrat town halls! Those Demons! No, wait, those DEMONCRATS!
.
¡El Gato Negro!
At this point, it might be easiest for progressive counter-protestors to simply try to fit in, through dress and manner, with the majority of the crowd. Get in good with the biggest group of rock-skulled all-american, boisterous anti-tax patriots you can find, and start chanting:
Medicare is theft!
Medicare is theft!
Medicare is theft!
Crossing Guards are socialists!
Crossing Guards are socialists!
and so on…
White House Department of Law (fmrly Jim-Bob)
8:
I see what you did there. Lulz x infinity!
Hard to believe anybody here fell for it. (Well, actually not.)
General Winfield Stuck
Our Lady of the Long Knives writes the ultimate concern-troll article. IOW’s You meany dems leave them precious passionate wingnut rabble rousers alone. And Mr. Obama:
So a bunch of lunatic wingnut teabaggers start screaming and acting like Brown Shirt thugs, and Obama and dems should back off so we can all just get along. And besides, it’s Obama who is making them do it. Peg outdid herself on this one. I feel nauseous.
White House Department of Law (fmrly Jim-Bob)
24@
Did you know that the US spends nearly 100% of TAXPAYERS’ money occupying its OWN borders?
Enough is enough, I say.
US OUT OF NORTH AMERICA!!!
Call or write your Congressman.
kay
@General Winfield Stuck:
Yeah. The timing is always wrong. The timing was wrong last time because the nation was in crisis because Republicans left a huge, wonking debt. The timing is wrong this time because they left the financial system and credit markets in shambles. And, somehow, a huge debt.
Weird how there’s always a crisis that precludes actually investing in infrastructure, because we’re recovering after a GOP Presidency.
She’s hoping Republicans block it long enough to take back Congress, which is what happened last time.
It’s one trillion dollars over ten years. Less than Bush’s tax cut, incidentally. Virtually all of the individual gains realized over the Bush years are gone. One trillion dollars and nothing to show for it. Not real estate equity, not savings, not nothing. They added zero value in 8 years, for all but the top 1%.
Republicans blew a trillion dollars at the casino, added nothing of lasting or appreciating value, and now they want to lecture me on fiscal prudence.
steve s
I don’t know. There’s a popular bumper sticker here in Redneckistan north Florida which says STAND UP FOR AMERICA! BE AN AMERICAN!!! superimposed on a flag. Those people could easily be in a group called Americans for America.
ppcli
Guys, it’s a spoof. i) Stop Medicare’s site is clever ii) It would be nice if some teabaggers could be diverted to the political suicide position of opposing medicare iii) some real wingnuts are so crazy that they seem like trolls. *But* only a spoof would put this in as a reason to oppose Medicare (I hope):
.
“Anyone that has ever used Medicare has died or will die.”
.
What’s scary is that until this point in the website I wasn’t %100 sure it was a spoof.
RedKitten
Well of course, because we all know that senior citizens have absolutely NO health issues whatsoever, and make absolutely NO medical claims. Otherwise, their claims might add up to a much higher amount than their premiums, resulting in their private, for-profit insurance company finding a way to a) decline their claims or b) cancel their coverage. But that never happens, because we all know that senior citizens are the LEAST likely group to have chronic health issues, right?
Maroon.
drillfork
RedKitten
And no, I’m not taking the spoof seriously — I’m just having a bit of fun being argumentative this morning.
cosanostradamus
.
Republicans? Propagating FALSEHOODS???!!! WOOOW!!!
That really IS news. To WaPo. Where were they when we really needed them?
Good on this guy, but this is why “journalism” is going out of business. And business did it to them. There’s only one way to deal with these ‘Pukes. School ’em!
.
gypsy howell
Perhaps we can form our own mobs, buy some Glenn Beck teeshirts, and show up at town halls screaming about ending social ized Medicare. “Seniors should have the same care as the rest of America!!”
Remember when the wingers went offscript about Social Security privatization and started calling for an end to SocSec altogether? Fun times.
gypsy howell
Just checked out your site, Stop Medicare. Brilliant! Let’s get these fuckers where they live.
It would be helpful if only those of us who are white and over 50 would show up. Don’t forget your Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck teeshirts!
Fleem
Stop Medicare, you are so right. While we’re at it, we should stop fire departments, public schools, police departments and road repairs.
I don’t want my tax dollars paying to put out someone else’s house fire, protect someone else’s merchandise, teach other people’s kids, or let anyone else get where they’re going.
Montysano
The only problem with Stop Medicare is that, as parody goes, it may be far too subtle for the typical lizard brain.
Ash Can
There are awfully few real trolls around here, aren’t there? Spoofs aplenty, but precious few who sincerely believe the crap they fling. Once in a while, a couple will show up via a link at a RW site, but as soon as they get their noses bloodied they run away and are never seen again. No one ever sticks around to argue their points in detail, let alone on multiple topics in multiple threads. The only exceptions are a couple of the pundits/bloggers who have gotten slammed here, then — to their distinct credit — have shown up in the thread to defend themselves and mix it up with the inmates. But then, that’s not the same as trollage.
Napoleon
@gypsy howell:
gypsy howell said: “Remember when the wingers went offscript about Social Security privatization and started calling for an end to SocSec altogether?”
I forgot about that, but you are correct. It was something like a group of young Republicans showed up at some meeting and during their disruptions started chanting to end SocSec, the video of which made the rounds.
kay
After reading this column, we now know that explaining the parameters of health care reform is not unimaginable, or complicated, or even difficult to do in 3 minutes.
So why is this single person at a single media outlet the only one doing that?
Most issues are complicated, they’re terrible at explaining complicated issues, they keep telling us that, with a lot of whining and sighing and belligerent defensiveness, and yet they refuse to even attempt to simplify complicated issues.
Because it’s TOO HARD. Let’s talk about poll numbers, and our opinions on poll numbers, and the possible ramifications of poll numbers on health care reform, whatever THAT is.
gypsy howell
@Napoleon:
So all we need is a video of us merry pranksters in the Stop Medicare movement, mingling in with the teabaggers screaming about ending social ized medicare for seniors – “they deserve the same care as the rest of us! Stop the tyranny of medicare! Private insurance for seniors!”
WereBear
It’s not because it’s TOO HARD.
It’s because if it were explained, anyone with half a brain would want it… and that’s the end of Republicans.
Ash Can
BTW, Firedoglake has a handy-dandy reference page listing the appearances congressfolks are making during the August recess, and features a comprehensive list of the health care town halls in particular.
Thunderbird
Never underestimate the ability of a sizable fraction of the American people to be duped into protesting something that would massively benefit them.
Sometimes I weep for this country, but then I think that we’ve got no one to blame but ourselves.
Napoleon
@gypsy howell:
Yes, I actually think that would be very effective if it could be pulled off. I think I would word it a little different (your wording is a little to in the face of people right in front of you), like “end government socialized health care like Medicare” or when one of the senior citizen clowns stand up and says they they are against getting the government involved in their health care stand up after him/her and say “I totally agree with him, we need to get rid of programs like Medicare” which will put the person in a box of saying nothing or then taking a contrary position.
Demo Woman
@Stop Medicare: Insurance companies can select the healthiest of patients and then decide not to insure them if they show signs of illness.
You might try to post your bull shit on another site cuz it sure doesn’t work here.
kay
@WereBear:
It is because it’s too hard. It’s easy to read two competing press releases, from the White House and the GOP, point, counter-point. I could do that, and so could you.
They’re supposed to be adding value to this, or what’s the point of paying them? “He said/she said” isn’t journalism, it’s a moderator.
I’ll just go to Whitehouse.gov, and then any number of wingnut media outlets. Point, counterpoint. Done.
Demo Woman
Write your congressmen and see where they stand on Medicare. As we know medicare is a government run single payer system. It is time that every Senator and Representative explain their position.
Either they are for government run health care as is the case with Medicare or they are not.
I’m still waiting to see if my rep stands behind Dr. McKalip who has help telephone conferences with him. Dr. McKalip is the FL dr. who sent President Obama picture across the internet looking like a withch doctor. I called on July 24th and still no response.
WereBear
@kay:
You’re right, it takes extra effort.
However, since Bush, Cheney, et al, I have come to feel that I should not attribute stupidity… when it’s probably malice.
gypsy howell
@Demo Woman:
Have another cup of coffee, and reread the thread. :-)
arguingwithsignposts
@JGabriel:
Apparently, Gateway Pundit was calling for “mob action” at the St. Louis hc town meeting. Classy.
kay
@Demo Woman:
I got an interesting response from my far-right House member. I called, was polite, requested that he support reform, and asked him not to block reform. I left my name and number.
I got a sort of breathless call-back from a staffer who vehemently denied Republicans were in any way blocking reform. That’s really all he knew. That Republicans were not now and would never block reform. I know it’s nonsense, they’ve already announced that’s exactly what they’re doing, but I thought the intensity of the denial was notable.
Because Americans are happy with the status quo, right? Or so I’m told, daily.
Demo Woman
@gypsy howell: Normally I read the entire thread before posting but the comment obviously set me off. Might be time to switch to decaf. lol
Michelle Malkin is have a chat at Politico at noon for those who interested.
arguingwithsignposts
I think something could be done to turn the tide on this wingnuttery if progressives would equate health insurance cos. with wall street bankers. both are bleeding the country dry for private profit. I do think some of the teabaggers are genuinely “populist” in their anger, and perhaps that anger could be directed at the people who really fux0red the country over.
arguingwithsignposts
Among those 65 or older, the people most likely to be enrolled in Medicare, only 80 percent rated Medicare favorably. Worse, only 62 percent of 65 and older felt that Medicare was “well run.”
Are there any other people likely to be enrolled in Medicare?
While that is some seriously brillliant spoofery, I have seen the Aug. 22 date mentioned in various RW outlets as some kind of hc d-day.
kay
@WereBear</a
Oh, right. The stupidity v malice debate. I always come down on stupidity, because malice is too frightening.
Although Cheney is malicious, as are Glen Beck and Sean Hanitty, so ya got me there.
steve s
That WSJ piece was totally activist judge concern trolling.
Demo Woman
@kay: Interesting. They are really afraid of being branded as the party of no. I think that arguingwithsignposts at 86 is correct with her analysis but it’s easier said than done.
Comrade Darkness
While were at it, congress should get rid of their own government sponsored health care. Make them buy, um, I mean, give them the right to buy coverage in the free market. They should have thrown their own coverage away long ago, when they had a republican majority. Why didn’t they?
kay
Unemployment dropped. I’m pleased, because it fits with my anecdotal impression here. People here are telling me they’re going back to work , which has made me tear up when they tell me, incredibly, because they’ve been so hard-hit here, and for so long. We were at 20% and handing out free lunches in the children’s section of the library, to make sure they got something over the summer when they don’t have the school lunch program. We saw a lot of new faces :)
Anyway, good news.
blogreeder
This is how democracy works, guys. This is so 1993ish when Hillarycare came out. Bottom line, don’t mess with healthcare if you want peace. Who here though this would go sailing through? Really. I don’t think either side has read the bill yet. Although, I think it’s very misleading to say that a health bill that covers everyone won’t mess with private coverage. Why would a company continue to offer private coverage if all they have to do is pay a fine?
Charity
OKAY. You know what? Everyone who wants “the government” out of their lives, please step to the right. Hand over your Medicare, Social Security, unemployment checks, and any government aid like federal funding for highways, the National Guard, and disaster recovery. Go off into the woods and Godspeed.
The rest of us will be over here ENJOYING THE FUCKING PEACE AND QUIET and using Obamacare.
Mike in NC
Yeah, but don’t forget the measly trillion $$$ spent bringing Christian Democracy to the hostile brown inhabitants of Iraq. Ingrates!
Demo Woman
Mel Martinez resigned. Who will Charlie Crist appoint to replace him?
blogreeder
@Mike in NC
Christian Democracy? Are you truly this moronic? Ok a show of hands, how many people think the Athenians were Christian?
General Winfield Stuck
@blogreeder:
This is pure undistilled wingnuttery. Indistinguishable from parody, or self parody.
Or, When everyone is covered, people will lose coverage. It’s the insane conundrum offered as viable debate from the right.
Wingnut Logic unbound.
angulimala
Didn’t we used to complain about the stupid misuse of words like “terrorism” and “terrorist”?
Comrade Darkness
Krugman today starts out with a little debunking of the myth that what is happening now is just like the SocSec reform debate, but his closure is classic:
But right now Mr. Obama’s backers seem to lack all conviction, perhaps because the prosaic reality of his administration isn’t living up to their dreams of transformation. Meanwhile, the angry right is filled with a passionate intensity.
And if Mr. Obama can’t recapture some of the passion of 2008, can’t inspire his supporters to stand up and be heard, health care reform may well fail.
People on the right are crazy, but everything is still the left’s fault.
Comrade Darkness
@angulimala: They’ve become political terrorists,
Especially since “shills” “thugs” or just “idiots” covers it just fine.
steve s
Nobody who’s had much experience with private health insurance–or even most other large businesses these days–would consider them more helpful than the DMV. The DMV might be occasionally unenthusiastic about helping me, but private industries give employees *rewards* for screwing customers over. If everyone could get government health insurance that worked as well as the DMV does, the insurance companies would be terminally ill. And every politician opposed to a public plan knows this.
wolfetone
@Stop Medicare: What do you even mean by this? What a total non-sequitur.
steve s
“Didn’t we used to complain about the stupid misuse of words like “terrorism” and “terrorist”?”
Complaining about term overuse seems pretty *concerned* about things, if you ask me…
blogreeder
@General Winfield Stuck
Now this a very teachable moment here. Notice that my words are being paraphrased. Or, When everyone is covered, people will lose coverage. Sounds witty, doesn’t it? You don’t even notice that the word private was left off? So this is a straw man argument.
I’m being ridiculed for something I didn’t say. General, you don’t remember when President Obama said
How will I be able to keep my healthcare plan if it’s no longer offered by my employer? That’s my argument.
Napoleon
@Comrade Darkness:
I think what he is basically saying is that its Obama’s fault, but his point is a very suble one (that I happen to agree with) that Obama has tacked so hard to the right that people who poured blood, sweat and tears into his campaign see no reason to give him any more of their time or effort.
Maybe I see what he is saying this way because Obama has totally lost me. When you can not even stand up to law breakers in past administrations, let alone raid the Treasury for Goldman Sacks, etc. etc., why should I give a f—.
angulimala
@Comrade Darkness
I prefer “douchebags” and “political douchebaggery” myself.
Bender
So when this Obama-fellator Pearlstein sees the ads where a campaigning Obama declared his love for a single-payer system, when he sees the Democrat lady on the ads saying that the private insurance companies will go out of business with ObamaCare, when he sees the video where the architect of ObamaCare laugh that it’s a Trojan Horse for single-payer…
…will his headline be “Obama and Democrats Propagating Falsehoods?”
No, he’ll just wipe the jizz from his chin and call Republicans “terrorists” again because since Jan 2009, Dissent Is The Worse Kind Of Treason.
What a piece of human shit this “journalist” is.
Bender
So when this Obama-fellator Pearlstein sees the ads where a campaigning Obama declared his love for a single-payer system, when he sees the Democrat lady on the ads saying that the private insurance companies will go out of business with ObamaCare, when he sees the video where the architect of ObamaCare laughs that it’s a Trojan Horse for single-payer…
…will his headline be “Obama and Democrats Propagating Falsehoods?”
No, he’ll just wipe the jizz from his chin and call Republicans “terrorists” again because since Jan 2009, Dissent Is The Worse Kind Of Treason.
What a piece of human shit this “journalist” is.
angulimala
The Insurance industry is hardly a “Free” market in any meaningful sense of the word.
I used to be a conservative but I got tired of people like you who use the words but don’t know what they mean.
Napoleon
@blogreeder:
blogreeder said: “How will I be able to keep my healthcare plan if it’s no longer offered by my employer? That’s my argument.”
You have that problem now, with employers dropping and gutting coverage left and right. That is one of the major points of reform is to control cost control so that does not happen. You are living in a fantasy world if you think 5-10 years from now that without it most full time employees will not be offered health care coverage.
As to your factually inaccurate item up thread that all an employer would have to pay is a “small fine”, it is not a small fine. Basically they will have to pay to foot the cost of basic care for their employees, whether they do it themselves or, in essence, have the government force place coverage. Since, you know, the people making the decision at your employer will be making the decision for what their personal coverage will be in addition to your own, they have powerful incentive to get it right.
blogreeder
@kay
20% unemployment? That’s terrible. Where do you live?
General Winfield Stuck
@blogreeder:
It’s a decoded argument to counter your strawman argument. What Obama and dems are offering for employers are three options. One is to keep with their private plans that will go down in cost with the competition of a PO.
Or, if the employer doesn’t want to deal with private healthcare anymore, or the private carrier drop it’s coverage, they can pay a fee to the government of equal price, or higher, and the employees can enjoy at a lower price the ease of Medicare like services that don’t have profiteering private insurers searching for ways to deny coverage when people get sick.
Or people can just get private insurance on their own.
In all cases, the idea is to slow down the inflation rate in health care to a normal rate, before it bankrupts the country. It would be better if the private sector had done this on their own and we wouldn’t have to be getting government involved. But greed always finds a way, and did in this industry.
And don’t give me the talking point of how bad medicare is and how gov. drones will get between patients and doctors. It’s a fucking lie.
jcricket
For better or worse the current plan is designed to force the existing system (employer-tied) to stay in place for quite a while. IIRC, almost all the bills basically forbid large companies from offering the public plan or participating in the exchange for 5+ years. And part of the employer mandate requires them to either offer insurance or pay at least a bunch of your premium for you to purchase it yourself (this mainly applies to the small/medium sized businesses that aren’t so tiny as to be exempt)
Ideally the bill that passes would allow companies to offer the public plan after the 5 year period. Of course insurance companies are deathly afraid of that, and I doubt that will pass (gotta protect the industry profits, dontcha know).
My suspicion is that if there is a public plan and regulations that work, costs in the private sector will still go way up, and in 5 years the next fight will be allowing every company to offer the public plan (part of the first step of having all insurance be purchased through the exchange, instead of directly via your employer).
Frankly, that’d be a good thing. Ideally both the state, individuals and your employer would contribute to insurance, but no matter where you worked (or didn’t) you’d get your insurance through the exchange, with all available options competing.
That said, I think options that “seem” low-cost by premium but are basically not useful at all (think all those plans you see on TV, or HDHP/HSAs) should be banned. People will purchase the cheapest option possible (esp. young people) and then demand hand-outs when they can’t afford actual medical care.
General Winfield Stuck
I meant to say lower.
Svensker
@Bender:
Such compelling arguments.
You’ve convinced me to become a Republican again by your inspiring and thoughtful dialogue. Thank you from the bottom of my knees.
Ash Can
@blogreeder:
This question intrigued me, so I started to look up what sort of fines were stipulated by the current version of the health care reform proposals, how they were quantified, and how they would compare with the costs now incurred by employers to provide health plans.
But then I thought about it again, and realized that this wasn’t really the underlying issue. The real issue behind this question is this: why private coverage is at all desirable in the first place. If private coverage were to turn out to be superior to public coverage, employers would be insane not to continue to offer it. If private coverage were to turn out to be inferior to public coverage, why should it continue to exist? And if private coverage were to turn out to be comparable to public coverage, then everyone — the private insurers included — would have to face the fact that the only thing differentiating the private carriers from the government program is the extra layer of expense built into the private model, viz., the need to produce a profit. The onus would be on them to improve their model if they want to continue to claim superiority over the public model.
Bender
Ideally both the state, individuals and your employer would contribute to insurance, but no matter where you worked (or didn’t) you’d get your insurance through the exchange, with all available options competing.
Competing.
Yeah, right.
Ever try “competing” with a “business” that doesn’t have to make a profit and can print its own money? Look, backers of ObamaCare are on video saying that it’s a Trojan Horse for single-payer and that it will put insurance companies out of business. They admit it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzhSIzt25Yk
So what the discussion of leftwing blogs should be is the same one that they are having: How do we lie successfully and fool the ignorant masses into supporting it?
blogreeder
@Napoleon
Interesting point. Health Insurance is one of the selling points of employment. So, I don’t think your scenario is true without Obamacare.
What employers are dropping their coverage? For full-time employees?
I didn’t write “small fine”. What I meant was it would be simpler for employers to cover a fine than is will be to cover health insurance.
General Winfield Stuck
@Ash Can:
And herein lies the Holy Grail of what Obama wants to do with a PO. To force an industry that provides a vital service that people can’t afford to opt out of using, by planting a seed of incentive to start operating like a real capitalistic free market. It’s the only way, and without it, though there will be improvements with just delivery based reforms, the uncontrollable rise in cost will collapse the whole shabang sooner rather than later.
DBrown
@blogreeder: Easy solution that you overlooked – if your company will not help pay for coverage because lower cost government coverage is available, then pay for a private plan yourself; why should your God loving, pro-American company pay for your health benefits? That is like so unfair to their profit line.
Or are saying that since part of your ‘potential wages’ are paid by the company to get you private care so you work for them, and as an added benefit you also get a group rate which will disappear as a private individual buying from a for profit health care company, you do not want to lose this wonderful benefit since you realize that no smart, well run American company can resist dropping this traditional worker benefit if they can get away with it? That is the real worry.
catclub
Did any one else notice his comment about the 55-64 buy-in to Medicare?
That is actually something proposed by Max Baucus, so if it shows up in his
final bill, you can thank me for telling you.
This pair of lines in the article seems amazingly wonk- style. Hence out of place:
>>>
Can there be anyone more two-faced than the Republican leaders who in one breath rail against the evils of government-run health care and in another propose a government-subsidized high-risk pool for people with chronic illness, government-subsidized community health centers for the uninsured, and opening up Medicare to people at age 55?
>>>
My question is: Pearlstein seems to be claiming that Republicans are proposing those policies.
Anyone know facts that would support that claim?
I have heard nothing about any of those – Republican or Democrat.
Thanks.
angulimala
@Napolean
Sadly, we might just have to wait those 5-10 years until enough people have been screwed to make reform inevitable.
======================================
I still remember being told by an insurance rep that my medicine would no longer be covered by my Univ. plan. When I explained that it had been covered for more than a year previously and that it was supposed to be covered according to the Plan documentation I had read carefully, he replied “We reserve the right to change the terms of your coverage at any time, without notification”.
Thankfully, this wasn’t an individual plan. It was a plan for thousands of students at a state university. When I spoke to the administrator she was visibly pissed, told me that they had received similar complaints from many other students already, and called up the insurance company. Within a day they caved and began covering my meds again.
It was clearly a conscious attempt to save money by breaching their contract. If they had the balls to try that with a big customer, just imagine how they treat the small customers who don’t have nearly the same clout.
Ash Can
@Demo Woman:
Wow. I wonder if there’s any significance in the fact that he did this the day after being one of only a few Republicans to vote in favor of Sonia Sotomayor’s confirmation? Given his own Hispanic heritage and the percentage of Hispanics in the population he represents, I have to wonder if he looked at his party, looked at the writing plastered all over the wall, and just said, “fuck it.”
Ash Can
@Bender:
Those characteristics wouldn’t do said “business” a bit of good if said “business” can’t offer a competitive product. Implicit in your argument is that the product of said “business” would be superior — how else would it drive out the private product? — in which case so much the better, since we’re not talking about a discretionary expenditure with elastic demand, we’re talking about the lives and well-being of the nation’s populace.
jcricket
@Bender: Have you looked at any country where they actually have healthcare that’s not single-payer (e.g. Canada) or single-provider (e.g. Britain)?
In both Switzerland, France, with two of the best health systems in the world (both spending under 1/2 of what we spend as a % of GDP), they have vigorous competition between public and private plans.
Sure, it looks a lot different than our healthcare model, but the private industry is not muscled out.
Now, I don’t think we’ll get this, because it requires forcing the private insurance companies to accept all kinds of restrictions on their profit making ability (in fact, the insurers are all non-profit in Switzerland) that we would never try here (profits are sacred).
I’m fine with the way Obama is marketing the healthcare plan. Let’s get the 8-9 regulations being proposed and a strong public plan. In 5 years or so open up the public plan to all companies that want to offer it, and make sure the plan’s finances are still good.
If it turns into single-payer because private insurance companies still try and gouge us all, fine. If instead there’s some hybrid system which works (i.e. everyone gets good coverage at reasonable prices, rich people buy more coverage), that’s fine too. I don’t think single-payer is a lock just because we have a public plan.
Just Some Fuckhead
@blogreeder:
Your employer isn’t going to be able to offer you a healthcare plan if things continue on the same trajectory. Every quarterly board meeting, the principals in my wife’s small business discuss eliminating health care benefits. Not cutting them, not increasing the employees’ contribution, but eliminating health care coverage for their employees.
blogreeder
@Just Some NSFW
How does her company expect to hire anyone new? That’ll be a big seller for HR. Quality people will be just dying to work there.
Just Some Fuckhead
@blogreeder: The alternative is to not be in business, blogreeder. Does that help you understand it?
blogreeder
@Jcriket
Why would someone start a non-profit insurance company? Love of paperwork? What’s the motivation for doing a good job instead of a bad job? They’re not making a profit either way. Liberals certainly don’t appreciate the purpose of profit.
At least politicians are motivated by the next election.
blogreeder
I understand. A company can do anything they want. Would you work for a company that doesn’t offer a health plan? Maybe that’s why it’s just talk. You said every quarter they bring it up. Or have they actually done it?
Irony Abounds
@blogreeder:
I dunno, why do churches and other non-profits do charity work? What’s their motivation? Why have credit unions, which to a large extent are non-profits. Is there no motivation for people other than making as much money as possible no matter how difficult it makes life for others? What a sick attitude.
blogreeder
They’re not businesses, are they? Charity work is fine. A non-profit business is a contradiction of terms. People who start non-profit business are getting something that can’t be tracked on a profit and loss statement. If they give themselves a billion dollar salary, what does it matter? They’re non-profit. That’s how I see it. I just don’t trust the term non-profit. It sounds, manipulative, if you get my meaning. Liberal will fall for it if it’s called non-profit.
Don
Bottled water companies seem to be doing okay. People hire security guards despite the existence of police. I see parking garages situated in the same area as street parking, with and without meters. People buy fire extinguishers even though there’s a bunch of dudes with a shiny red truck down the road. Bookstores co-exist with libraries.
I’ll do my broken record bit here and say again that I just don’t understand how we got to the point that “it will interfere with business” became an argument unto itself. Labor safety laws impede business success, as do child labor laws. Somehow those got passed and people are okay with them. The fact that there’s a buck to be made shouldn’t be an argument in and of itself.
Mike Licht
Obama’s gonna kill Grandma?
See:
http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/obama-wants-to-kill-your-grandma/