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You are here: Home / Double Down On the Stupid

Double Down On the Stupid

by John Cole|  August 9, 20091:20 pm| 127 Comments

This post is in: Blatant Liars and the Lies They Tell, Clown Shoes

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I think the thing that most amazes me about the current GOP and their leadership is how self-destructive they are. Whenever they say something stupid enough to force reporters to openly state the assertions are nonsense, instead of backing off the claim, they double down. The latest example is in the aftermath of Sarah Palin’s idiotic death panel remarks, good ole President Gingrich goes on ABC and doubles down.

It really is quite amazing. It is almost as if they are playing a game with each other, trying to see who can say the most absurd thing with a straight face.

And what is even more amazing is that the wingnuttosphere believes these clowns.

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127Comments

  1. 1.

    WereBear

    August 9, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    It’s a feedback loop. Their followers lurve the crazy, and they give the audience what they want.

    Since they are the political equivalent of pole dancers, it’s the business they are in, after all. The bouncers will clear the floor after their set.

  2. 2.

    Va Highlander

    August 9, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Movement conservatism isn’t about what anyone thinks; it’s about how the group feels. Therefore, whatever keeps the faithful at a howling pitch is good for the movement.

  3. 3.

    MacsenMifune

    August 9, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    I guess they are hoping that the person that says the dumbest thing, will be a shoe in for president.

  4. 4.

    Kryptik

    August 9, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    No, JC. That’s not the most amazing thing.

    The most amazing thing is our media’s willingness to credulously report them consistently and repeatedly with ‘balance’ rather tha objectivity.

  5. 5.

    PeakVT

    August 9, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    The Big Lie backed by lots of little lies has worked quite well for the Republicans since the early 80s. They’re not going to stop until it fails utterly (which, thanks to centrist Dems, may not happen anytime soon).

  6. 6.

    MattF

    August 9, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    It’s easy (very easy) to get snarky about this stuff– but if you step back a bit, it’s scary. Gingrich, for example– always an asshole, but he used to have moments of lucidity. Now it’s “get mad and don’t forget to carry concealed.” A whole bunch of people in the political class have stopped taking their medication, and it’s a very bad thing.

  7. 7.

    valdivia

    August 9, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    I did not see this but did *anyone* challenge the idiocy and mendacity? Or just let him claim this as if it were true?

  8. 8.

    Ned Ludd

    August 9, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    Experiments done by Nyhan and Reifler showed that, among conservatives, refuting misinformation actually makes them believe it more:

    “Political scientists Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler provided two groups of volunteers with the Bush administration’s prewar claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. One group was given a refutation – the comprehensive 2004 Duelfer report that concluded that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction before the United States invaded in 2003. Thirty-four percent of conservatives told only about the Bush administration’s claims thought Iraq had hidden or destroyed its weapons before the U.S. invasion, but 64 percent of conservatives who heard both claim and refutation thought that Iraq really did have the weapons. The refutation, in other words, made the misinformation worse.

    “A similar ‘backfire effect’ also influenced conservatives told about Bush administration assertions that tax cuts increase federal revenue. One group was offered a refutation by prominent economists that included current and former Bush administration officials. About 35 percent of conservatives told about the Bush claim believed it; 67 percent of those provided with both assertion and refutation believed that tax cuts increase revenue.”

  9. 9.

    Alan

    August 9, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    Off topic, but…

    I noticed last night that the black guy who was beaten up at the St. Louis townhall is now being rolled around in a wheelchair–theatrics to get the ref to throw a flag. You have to watch the video to see the absurdity of it.

  10. 10.

    David

    August 9, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    It’s amazing how so soon after she became a private citizen, that Sarah Palin shot into the outer rings of the Fringe-o-sphere.

  11. 11.

    Ned Ludd

    August 9, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    @Ned Ludd: The last paragraph should have also been included in the blockquote.

  12. 12.

    Tsulagi

    August 9, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    It really is quite amazing. It is almost as if they are playing a game with each other, trying to see who can say the most absurd thing with a straight face.

    Makes total sense. It’s a war out there. They’re fighting for hearts and minds. Of The Base. If you can’t amp up the stupid level to show you’re worthy to lead, don’t bother stepping onto the field. Hearts and minds, bitch. Hearts and minds.

  13. 13.

    Ash Can

    August 9, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    Wait a minute. Wasn’t Gingrich saying just a few months ago that he thought Palin would be a good politician on the national level if she got a little more edumacated on the issues? And now she says something crack-brained about an issue and he’s all for it?? I mean seriously, WTF???

  14. 14.

    wilfred

    August 9, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    I don’t know, it seems like the best strategy available. Palin incites the base/fringe and gets some political presence, same with Gingrich. At th right moment, pull back from extreme positions, claim the usual about being misquoted, or taken out of context or accuse everyone else of being too literal minded. Try to nick off another 5 percent of the electorate and hope that things go south domestically and abroad. If they do, a lot of disaffected Democratic party voters who are not progressive may in fact align themselves to the right.

    They are already marginalized as a political party. The best hope for sane Republicans is to align themselves with less progressive Democrats and form a third party – not very likely.

    I just don’t think they are that stupid, to me it seems like the only play they have at the moment.

  15. 15.

    Sentient Puddle

    August 9, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    “The bigger the lie, the more they believe.” – Bunk

    I’m pretty well convinced that that’s the only reason why these guys are getting any sort of air time. They so confidently lie that the people watching think “Well, if it was wrong, then they wouldn’t be on TV…” or something to that effect.

  16. 16.

    br

    August 9, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    @valdivia: Stephanopolous called him on it and basically treated him like a reprehensible moron. He repeatedly tells Gingrich that death panels are not in the bill. I can see the headlines in the wingnuttosphere already: “Stephanopolous clings to his Clintonian roots and defends the Obama administration. George is just a partisan shill. Where’s the objectivity?”

  17. 17.

    JenJen

    August 9, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    George Stephanopolous actually did a good job pushing back on Gingrich’s lie that Zeke Emanuel is POTUS’ top health care advisor. I was rather shocked.

    I thought the biggest news that came out of “This Week” was when Steph said “You need 60 votes” and Howard Dean said “We need 51.”

  18. 18.

    feebog

    August 9, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    It’s amazing how so soon after she became a private citizen, that Sarah Palin shot into the outer rings of the Fringe-o-sphere.

    Oh she was out there somewhere near the orbit of Pluto well before she resigned quit the Gov gig.

  19. 19.

    chrome agnomen

    August 9, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    @va highlander

    precisely. thinkers need not apply.

    by the way, i’m a highland county, va resident. you?

  20. 20.

    asiangrrlMN

    August 9, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    The rightwing is gonna do what they feel they gotta do. Why they think this is what they gotta do, I have no idea, but that’s their game. It’s the fucking media that is pissing me off with its faux objectivity. Birfers are fucking crazy. Anyone who believes there will be mandated (or even recommended) euthanasia in the healthcare reform bill is just stupid. This needs to be hammered home, and the traditional media refuses to do it.

  21. 21.

    Bob

    August 9, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Will K-Street be held responsible when they incite someone to shoot the President, or will Fox and Co. say he had it coming?

  22. 22.

    WereBear

    August 9, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    Apparently the guy in the wheelchair has been laid off and is taking donations, since he doesn’t have healthcare.

    Forget spiking the teabagger’s punch with empathy pills. If we could develop the Irony Pill, that would take care of the problem.

  23. 23.

    eric

    August 9, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    I know this is does the bear shit in the woods territory, but is there a GOP figure less successfull that Newt (when looked at in total) and more hypocritical in his personal life that ends up being treated with more respect in the Village?

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Ooops, other than John McCain.

    My word. I have not watched a Sunday show or a network news broadcast, including cable, in more than 15 years, and yet the SAME people dominate them. It is no wonder that news organizations and news papers are dying, they are another form of welfare for a thinning generation.

    eric

  24. 24.

    valdivia

    August 9, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    thanks jenjen and br, good to know he pushed back on this.

  25. 25.

    kay

    August 9, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    They have to defend everything Palin says because the alternative is…they knowingly foisted a crazy person on the country.
    Gingrich can never admit he tried to remove a President he disagreed with either, and that’s just huge.
    Newt Gingrich is really in a sort of straightjacket, of his own making. His whole life now consists of defending really indefensible past acts. They’re enormously terrible, too. Just huge, bed-rock, basic integrity matters, he’s failed every test.

  26. 26.

    demkat620

    August 9, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    I really think they believe if they just repeat it enough it will become true.

  27. 27.

    r€nato

    August 9, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    @WereBear:

    It’s a feedback loop.

    I prefer the phrase, circle jerk.

  28. 28.

    r€nato

    August 9, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    @demkat620:

    why shouldn’t they? That worked so well with Iraq.

  29. 29.

    plom

    August 9, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    Palin/Kenneth Gladney ticket for 2012. The fact that Kenneth was maimed at a town hall meeting shows he loves America. Catch the fever.

  30. 30.

    Martin

    August 9, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    They stop when guys like Gregory, Brian Williams, etc. call them on their shit and demand that they prove their rhetoric.

    Until that moment, doubling down works in their favor. Some viewers might call bullshit on their words, but the fact that they’re still watching these guys on TV suggests that they’ll trust the anchor more than the guests, and if the anchor lets the accusation go then it must be a fair accusation. (That’s why most of us don’t watch them any more.)

    Now that Steph pushed back, Gingrich will be more careful. He’ll not put it out on the regular circuit any more, but will save it for Fox, etc. But Gingrich has always been as willing a serial liar as Palin is. That he jumped on board should surprise nobody.

  31. 31.

    The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America

    August 9, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    @JenJen:

    I thought the biggest news that came out of “This Week” was when Steph said “You need 60 votes” and Howard Dean said “We need 51.”

    Me too.

    Josh Marshall also made an astue observation about the Gingrich appearance:

    True to form as king of political freak show sleaze, Gingrich defends palins “death panel” slurs

  32. 32.

    jwb

    August 9, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    I was surprised that Gingrich decided to double down rather than sidestep, since I don’t really see that that he has a future in leading the crazy.

  33. 33.

    Elie

    August 9, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    I think that what they are doing is perfectly rational.

    Their goal is to make any successes by the Democrats very difficult to make — to surround this administration with memories of disruption and complete craziness in order to disrupt and destroy the possibility of consensus and real communication. They KNOW this stuff (health care, stimulus, reform of any kind) is powerful stuff and if successful will totally change the landscape that they have shaped and driven for decades. This is Linda Blair spewing green vomit all over the Exorcist by design, to terrify the witnesses to the process and assert the devil’s power. No different here.

    We/and this administration must persist and push forward with or without the sense of consensus we would all like. Yes, the legislation will look ugly, sloppy and whatever. BUT.IT.MUST.BE.PASSED!!!!

    The Blue dogs have shot their wad in my opinion. They have to come along because they are going to be torn to pieces any way so might as well man up, stick your chest out and do the right thing.

    Our country needs the bravery from the Democrats and this administration. This is for all the marbles and without a doubt, as clearly and beautifully articulated by Frank Rich in his column today, we cannot be punked or feel that we are punked — so while what passes may not be perfect — may not encompass every ideal of those of us who are left/progressive — it MUST provide coverage for all and begin to address the substantial infrastructe anomalies that cause us to have the highest priced care with the least amount of health care benefit …

    I think Obama is probably prepared to be a one term President to get this done. He and we have to be absolutely dedicated…

  34. 34.

    Jay Andrew Allen

    August 9, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    What I actually find amazing is that, while Palin is tlapking about death panels, the truth is that most private insurers wouldn’t cover her Downs Syndrome baby. The death panels Palin fears are already here…and they’re privately funded.

    But why let facts get in the way of anti-gub’mint fear-mongering? SOCIALISM!!

  35. 35.

    Arachnae

    August 9, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    Interesting that the crazies think the flu vaccines are an evil plot. Will we see Darwin in Action when the flu hits this winter?

  36. 36.

    Calming Influence

    August 9, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    I’m beginning to think calling this stuff stupid is a mistake. Dave Niewert’s [url=http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/]Orcinus[/url] should be a daily read, but Sara’s post on Friday, [url=http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2009/08/fascist-america-are-we-there-yet.html]”Fascist America: Are We There Yet?”[/url] is a must read.

    The phrase “crazy like a fox” springs to mind, and it may be time to stop assuming they’re self destructing and start addressing this madness seriously. I’ve always felt America was somehow immune to the possibility of martial law, military coups, dictatorship, etc.; I’ve been naive.

  37. 37.

    WereBear

    August 9, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    What the Republicans are doing is absurd, if we look at it as politics.

    But it’s not. It’s really a con game.

    Seen as a con, it makes perfect sense. When the mark starts to question the game, the con artist ramps it up. The mark can cut their losses and see it as the con it is.

    OR, they can double down to keep their dream alive.

    The mark almost always doubles down instead, and buys into the con even more.

    Because very few are able to cut losses… and admit they were conned.

  38. 38.

    kay

    August 9, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    @demkat620:

    Newt Gingrich wouldn’t know “true” if it bit him in the ass. He’s gone. There’s nothing there left to trade.

  39. 39.

    SGEW

    August 9, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Time, once again, for this classic Burkean Bell:

    “In this political traffic [of a weak or vicious assembly], the leaders will be obliged to bow to the ignorance of their followers, and the followers to become subservient to the worst designs of their leaders.”

    (cf.)
    (emphasis added)

  40. 40.

    Calming Influence

    August 9, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    I’m beginning to think calling this stuff stupid is a mistake. Dave Niewert’s [url=http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/]Orcinus[/url] should be a daily read, but Sara’s post on Friday, [url=http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2009/08/fascist-america-are-we-there-yet.html]”Fascist America: Are We There Yet?”[/url] is a must read.

    The phrase “crazy like a fox” springs to mind, and it may be time to stop assuming they’re self destructing and start addressing this madness seriously. I’ve always felt America was somehow immune to the possibility of martial law, military coups, dictatorship, etc.; I’ve been naive. Also.

  41. 41.

    Ash Can

    August 9, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    @Arachnae: Sadly, these assholes will likely be spared any Darwinism. The virus is showing itself to be most harmful to young children so far. The crazies won’t suffer, their kids (and the kids of others, with whom they come in contact) will.

  42. 42.

    jwb

    August 9, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    @Elie

    Yes, there is a definite sense in which this spectacle is serving as one big distraction. On the other hand, it may well be that the Dems are using the distraction to get their deals worked out. We’ll see in September whether the Dems actually have a competent leadership. (Some days I think, yes, everything will be fine; other days I think no, we’re sooo screwed.)

  43. 43.

    JGabriel

    August 9, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    @David:

    It’s amazing how so soon after she became a private citizen, that Sarah Palin shot into the outer rings of the Fringe-o-sphere.

    Not so soon, really. About two weeks. I expected it to happen within a day or two. I’m still surprised she hasn’t come out as a birther yet.

    .

  44. 44.

    JenJen

    August 9, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    Deep Thought: How many of you Juicers are on Twitter? Would be fun if we could have an open Twitter thread so that those of us who are inclined can find other Juicers there.

    I’m @TavernWench, by the way!

  45. 45.

    Calming Influence

    August 9, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    I’m beginning to think calling this stuff stupid is a mistake. Dave Niewert’s [url=http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/]Orcinus[/url] should be a daily read, but Sara’s post on Friday, [url=http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2009/08/fascist-america-are-we-there-yet.html]”Fascistt America: Are We There Yet?”[/url] is a must read.

    The phrase “crazy like a fox” springs to mind, and it may be time to stop assuming they’re self destructing and start addressing this madness seriously. I’ve always felt America was somehow immune to the possibility of martial law, military coups, dictatorship, etc.; now maybe not so much.

  46. 46.

    Arachnae

    August 9, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Elie: I think Obama is probably prepared to be a one term President to get this done. He and we have to be absolutely dedicated…

    He may be prepared, but it would be inadvisable. A GOP President coming in in 2012 would simply undo whatever got accomplished. We need at least another four years to make clear the benefits to society so it CAN’T be easily undone.

  47. 47.

    Fulcanelli

    August 9, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    @Arachnae: “Will we see Darwin in Action when the flu hits this winter?”

    With any luck.

  48. 48.

    Calming Influence

    August 9, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    I’m beginning to think calling this stuff stupid is a mistake. Dave Niewert’s Orcinus should be a daily read, but Sara’s post on Friday, “Fascist America: Are We There Yet?” is a must read.

    The phrase “crazy like a fox” springs to mind, and it may be time to stop assuming they’re self destructing and start addressing this madness seriously. I’ve always felt America was somehow immune to the possibility of martial law, military coups, dictatorship, etc.; I’ve been naive.

    (Sorry, no links cuz WordPress don’t like em…?)

  49. 49.

    Arachnae

    August 9, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    JenJen – I’m @arachnae, but I don’t tweet much.

  50. 50.

    gbear

    August 9, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    @Kryptik:

    What Kryptik said. Completely. A sane media would have cut to a commercial and Gingrich wouldn’t have been there when they returned to the program. This is all a game for them.

  51. 51.

    Arachnae

    August 9, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    I’m hearing anti-reform commenters also lambasting social security and medicare. I think we need to drive home the REAL cost of listening to these bozos. Much like it’s important to point out that ‘pro-lifers’ are often against birth control as well – when the SANE part of the population hears what these loons are really all about, they draw back in revulsion.

  52. 52.

    gizmo

    August 9, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E1SLJgATvM&feature=player_embedded

    Frank Schaefer, a former wingnut, with some forthright commentary

  53. 53.

    SGEW

    August 9, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    @Calming Influence:

    Link here.

  54. 54.

    Mark S.

    August 9, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    “Communal standards historically is a very dangerous concept,” Gingrich told me.

    Like Christianity?

  55. 55.

    JGabriel

    August 9, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    @gbear:

    A sane media would have cut to a commercial and Gingrich wouldn’t have been there when they returned to the program.

    Not exactly. Gingrich was, at one time, Speaker of the House, second in line to the Presidency.

    If someone who wielded that much power starts talking about how the moon is made of green cheese and he never asked for alien butt probe, those cameras are staying ON.

    The death panel stuff is only slightly crazier.

    .

  56. 56.

    JGabriel

    August 9, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    @Mark S.:

    “Communal standards historically is a very dangerous concept,” Gingrich told me.

    Like Christianity?

    Hey, it brought down the Roman Empire, after 5 or 6 centuries.

    .

  57. 57.

    oliver's neck

    August 9, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    @jwb:

    And see, I think all this sturm and drang is designed to keep both us (progressives) and them (the basest of GOP base) occupied whilst the core of corporatist politicians (of either party) manages to slip by a bill to the massive benefit of the health isurance/pharma industry itself.
    <a href=”http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/08/done_deal_6.php”cf.

    also, what WereBear said – ‘cept I won’t claim to have been astute enough to formulate it that way for myself or others yet.

  58. 58.

    Calming Influence

    August 9, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    @SGEW: Thanks!

  59. 59.

    JK

    August 9, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    The latest bullshit from one of the leading bullshit artists of our time Glenn Reynolds, the Instadouchebag

    “As someone who’s been following the Tea Party campaign since the beginning, it seems to me to be the most genuine outbreak of grassroots popular involvement in my lifetime. People have been turning out, in the tens of thousands at times, because they feel that Obama pulled a bait-and-switch and is moving the country much farther to the left than he promised during the campaign.

    More significantly, most of these people are turning out to protest for the first time in their lives, and they’re planning for future political involvement in years to come. Perhaps that’s what’s got the critics worried.

    Civility is fine, but those who demand it should show it. The Obama administration — and its corps of willing supporters in the press and the punditry — has set the tone, and they are now in a poor position to complain.

    Whether they like it or not — and the evidence increasingly tends toward “not” — President Obama and his handlers need to accept that this is a free country, one where expressions of popular discontent take place outside the electoral process, and always have. (Remember Martin Luther King?)”

    Source: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Sunday_Reflections/Remember-when-protest-was-patriotic-52767517.html

  60. 60.

    Linkmeister

    August 9, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    @Arachnae: Trouble is, sometimes the populace gets swayed by the crazies.

    The water supply in Hawai’i is not fluoridated because the loonies have managed to sway the legislators (or at least persuade them that it’s not a big enough deal to lose votes over) into banning its use. Hell, we even had a Mayor of Honolulu sign a bill banning additives, and the guy was a biologist by training.

    So we have lousy tooth decay rates.

  61. 61.

    Tsulagi

    August 9, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    I noticed last night that the black guy who was beaten up at the St. Louis townhall is now being rolled around in a wheelchair

    Classic.

    RedState posted this youtube of the “beating.” The guy is on the ground for about two seconds before he pops up then walks around like an energizer bunny. The next day a front page RedState post somberly intones…

    “Don’t Tread on Me” Those were the words of Kenneth Gladney. These words however were spoken by his lawyer since Gladney was under heavy medication as a result of the beating he took at the hands of SEIU thugs.

    “Beating”? Moms have been more injured at Xmas jockeying to snatch the last Elmo dolls off shelves. Now he’s in a wheelchair? And these are the guys who will tell you they’re tougher versions of Jack Bauer.

    Well, if the guy is unemployed maybe he can take over the wingnut mascot job from Joe the Plumber. He can be Kenny the Victim. Should be a crowd pleaser with the base.

  62. 62.

    JenJen

    August 9, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    @Tsulagi:

    “Beating”? Moms have been more injured at Xmas jockeying to snatch the last Elmo dolls off shelves. Now he’s in a wheelchair? And these are the guys who will tell you they’re tougher versions of Jack Bauer.

    Gosh. I sure hope he has health insurance.

  63. 63.

    Steeplejack

    August 9, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    @WereBear:

    It’s a feedback loop. Their followers lurve the crazy, and they give the audience what they want.

    Also, as we discussed in an earlier thread, Newt has no skin in the game. He’s a “private citizen” making millions off corporate fees and donations to keep the base inflamed, and he can say whatever he thinks he needs to to keep the flame going.

  64. 64.

    kay

    August 9, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    @JK:

    “because they feel that Obama pulled a bait-and-switch and is moving the country much farther to the left than he promised during the campaign.”

    They always say this. Let me tell you how this turns out. If Obama capitulates they will announce he saw the beauty and wisdom of the conservative approach, and that’s why he had a successful Presidency.
    The only thing that’s remarkable is how much this is like Clinton. They have one idea. Over and over and over.

  65. 65.

    Montysano

    August 9, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    My former primary care doctor is now living and practicing in Canada. She left this comment on a friend’s Facebook page:

    I am stunned that americans continue to believe they have health care. Almost the worst infant mortality rates in the developed world? Worse than TURKEY? Dropping life expectancy? An ‘epidemic’ of kidney failure due to lack of primary care? The *best* care in the US is substandard on a world wide basis. We DO have choice here, wait times are based on need. When I order an MRI I ask for it now, within 3 d, 1 wk, 1 mo, or 1-3 mos. If it’s follow up, the last is fine. I called for a first appt on for myself on Mon, was seen on Fri. by the doctor of my choice. Needed a mammogram, called for appt on Fri, had it the next Th. All walking distance from my house. Without paying a penny, no co pay. How do we afford it? I pay less tax here than I paid in the US. We afford it by not trying to police the entire world! Our military works only under NATO. Our health care system IS underfunded, does have problems, but is totally different from yours. I *love* it here.

    I posted it on my FB page, and it shouldn’t be long before friends from back in rural Indiana are piping up and howling about Death Panels.

    Of course, this has very little to do with health care and everything to do with “Ah want muh country baaaaaaaaack!1!”

  66. 66.

    Brachiator

    August 9, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    @gbear:

    What Kryptik said. Completely. A sane media would have cut to a commercial and Gingrich wouldn’t have been there when they returned to the program.

    Not. Gonna. Happen.

    The media must be fed, and the suits are deathly afraid that viewers will turn away if they don’t fill airtime with reliably recognizable faces.

    If Gingrich were tossed off the air, they wouldn’t be able to go to him next week or whenever, when they need a GOP talking head to bloviate on taxes or whatever.

    And the biggest media people and politicians run in the same New York/Beltway circles. They share agents, vacation together, attend the same salons, etc. They have each other’s back, no matter what, the public be damned.

    And on the political level, some in the GOP still think that Palin may have some long term appeal. So since she won’t appear on a pundit show herself, Gingrich is acting as her designated surrogate.

    The Republicans want to get back into power by any means necessary. Outright lies about health care or anything else is nothing to them.

  67. 67.

    Adam Freeman

    August 9, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    They just believe Americans are stupid and will believe anything they say. That is why the media should stop playing this equal coverage bullshit and correct them.

  68. 68.

    Ash Can

    August 9, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    @JK: Wow. Once again, I’m left wondering whether the person writing this is dishonest or simply insane. The most genuine outbreak of activism he’s ever seen? Spontaneous? Obama far left? The Admin set the tone?

    That’s some industrial-strength fucked-up there.

    (I just had a thought. You know those pundits and bloggers who bravely show up here once in a while to defend themselves? If Glenn Reynolds ever did that I’d invite my friends over to watch the proceedings and serve drinks and sandwiches. And popcorn. Lots and lots of popcorn.)

  69. 69.

    Montysano

    August 9, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    Durbin open to dropping the public option.

    Goddamit….

  70. 70.

    jenniebee

    August 9, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    I’m @jbkenney

    And I’m starting to really freak myself out by reading about the “We are the Tyranny we’ve been waiting for” brigade, so I’m off to see Julie & Julia. Cheers!

  71. 71.

    Montysano

    August 9, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    @Ash Can:

    You know those pundits and bloggers who bravely show up here once in a while to defend themselves? If Glenn Reynolds ever did that I’d invite my friends over to watch the proceedings and serve drinks and sandwiches.

    It’ll never happen. Although Rachel Maddow has stated that she’s ready to rumble with anyone, anywhere, you’ll never see Hannity or Limbaugh or that detestable scumbag Levin or any of them ever take her on. Hannity used to have Phil Donahue on occasionally, but put an end to it after getting his clock cleaned.

  72. 72.

    Ash Can

    August 9, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    @Montysano: Hey, I’d never in a million years expect any of the leading mouths, on either side, to show up in any of these threads. But I’d like to think there’s a chance with Reynolds. After all, who the hell is he?

  73. 73.

    Ash Can

    August 9, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    ETA: (Boy, I miss that “edit” feature.) But I do see your point — Reynolds would be way too much of a coward to show up here, true.

  74. 74.

    Va Highlander

    August 9, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    @chrome agnomen:Alleghany Co, with strong ties to Bath. Not quite Highland, but close. Good to see you here.

  75. 75.

    Indylib

    August 9, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    @Montysano: I cringed when I read that on Huffpo, but then I remembered that every time someone from the Dem side or the White House “hints” at the possibility they’d be willing to drop the public option that it gets walked back within a couple of days. I think it’s just part of the game.

  76. 76.

    bellatrys

    August 9, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    You all know that scene in The Manchurian Candidate where Senator Iselin can’t remember how many commies he’s claimed were working in the national government, so his wife picks the number 57 off the ketchup bottle on the table?

    Mrs. Iselin: [at meal time] I’m sorry, hon’. Would it really make it easier for you if we settled on just one number?

    Sen. John Yerkes Iselin: Yeah. Just one, real, simple number that’d be easy for me to remember.

    [Mrs. Iselin watches her husband thump a bottle of Heinz Tomato Ketchup onto his plate]

    Sen. John Yerkes Iselin: [addressing the Senate] There are exactly 57 card-carrying members of the Communist Party in the Department of Defense at this time!

    Turns out that – like Dr. Strangelove’s fluoride-obsessed wingnut – this was NOT something made up from whole cloth to satirize Sen. McCarthy, but based on what a boozed-up Tailgunner Joe actually DID during the 1950 equivalent of the Teabag Patrol. (They timed it for Lincoln’s birthday back then, how sweeeeet!) Took four years for the country to get over him (to the extent we ever did.)

    Plus ca change, kids, plus c’est la fucking meme chose…

  77. 77.

    steve s

    August 9, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    Kevin Drum mentions something I’ve been thinking about

    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/08/dealing-corporate-america

    My dealings with the post office or dmv are always easier and more convenient these days than dealing with corporations. Trying to scare people by saying public health care would work as terribly as the DMV is just not scary at all. The DMV, unlike say insurance companies, aren’t deliberately trying to bone me.

  78. 78.

    jwb

    August 9, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    @oliver’s neck

    And see, I think all this sturm and drang is designed to keep both us (progressives) and them (the basest of GOP base) occupied whilst the core of corporatist politicians (of either party) manages to slip by a bill to the massive benefit of the health insurance/pharma industry itself.

    Perhaps. Some days I think the Dems might be completely bought and paid for and they exist only to screw us over. But other days I think that even if the insurance/pharma industry gets much of what they want (the ability to continue to make obscene profits), if the result is nevertheless better than the status quo, we still come out ahead. I’m not saying that we will come out ahead, btw, and I certainly concede we could get “reform” that leaves us far worse off, but at this point I’m still willing to trust in the process. If in the end we get a bill that is better than the status quo, I’ll guess I’m willing to take that.

  79. 79.

    Sly

    August 9, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    It really is quite amazing. It is almost as if they are playing a game with each other, trying to see who can say the most absurd thing with a straight face.

    Welcome to the 2012 Republican Primary.

  80. 80.

    kommrade reproductive vigor

    August 9, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    They’ve shot their feet to shit and now they’re working their way up to their knees.

  81. 81.

    JK

    August 9, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    @Ash Can:

    Among the blogger wingnuts, I find Glenn Reynolds to be one of the most nauseating. He oozes smugness and smarmyness. He’s a lying a sack of shit who also happens to be a law professor at the University of Tennessee.

  82. 82.

    Linkmeister

    August 9, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    @Steeplejack: FYI, I replied (#160) to a comment of yours down below in the Sat. Night Open Thread.

  83. 83.

    GP

    August 9, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    The more I read the more I am sickened by the BS that is out there. This is truly a sick bunch of people. Sad,Sad,Sad

  84. 84.

    Linkmeister

    August 9, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    @JK: He’s also a libertarian who takes a state government paycheck by working at U of Tennessee. If he stuck by his convictions . . .

    (Not that I hold that against him, particularly, but if he only recognized the irony once in a while . . .)

  85. 85.

    Calouste

    August 9, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    @Adam Freeman:

    They just believe Americans are stupid and will believe anything they say. That is why the media should stop playing this equal coverage bullshit and correct them.

    Well, the media’s business model is based on the believe that Americans are stupid and will believe anything they say, so good luck with that.

  86. 86.

    Mister Papercut

    August 9, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    @Alan: Wait, in the video, Kenneth Gladney is the fully ambulatory chap vigorous waving at the police car?

    *sigh* I don’t know how much more of the stupidity I can take before my brain stem decides to eat itself.

  87. 87.

    burnspbesq

    August 9, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    @Ash Can:

    “Once again, I’m left wondering whether the person writing this is dishonest or simply insane.”

    No need to wonder. It’s Glenn Reynolds, a/k/a Instaliar, a/k/a the best friend opponents of tenure ever had.

  88. 88.

    steve s

    August 9, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    “#

    #
    56
    August 9th, 2009 at 2:32 pm Reply to this comment

    JK

    The latest bullshit from one of the leading bullshit artists of our time Glenn Reynolds, the Instadouchebag”

    I’m always going back and forth about who’s stupider, Glenn, or his wife. I think the answer is ‘both of them’.

  89. 89.

    JK

    August 9, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    @Linkmeister: Great point. Reynolds is a first class phony. He also needs to cut down on his intake of stupid pills.

  90. 90.

    JK

    August 9, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    @steve s:

    Against my better judgement, I once watched a webcast of Glenn’s wife, Dr. Helen, interviewing Megan McArdle. Talk about dumb and dumber.

  91. 91.

    Ann B. Nonymous

    August 9, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Using the Republican magic mirror of projection, it really looks like future GOP policies will be all death panels, all the time. Who to kill, how to kill them, how many to kill, and why this is a good thing for America!

    They’re very simple people. Very simple ugly people.

  92. 92.

    kay

    August 9, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Sen. Olympia J. Snowe (R-Maine), a key negotiator, said she was so alarmed about distortions involving the deal being developed by members of the Finance Committee that she urged President Obama during a visit to the White House on Thursday to rebut conservative allegations, ‘to lessen the concern’ about the emerging legislation. …

    Well. Heartening to see she’s entirely helpless before this onslaught of bullshit, and has to rely on Public Enemy Number One of the conservative crazies to help her. She’s a Republican, right? Is she frightened of them too?

  93. 93.

    jcricket

    August 9, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    She’s a Republican, right? Is she frightened of them too?

    Only just barely, because they don’t really threaten her electability in her own state (the Republicans up there are somewhat sane).

    I wonder in 5-10 years when there are no moderate Republican Senators and maybe < 10 moderate Republican Representatives (let alone governors, etc.) what things will be like.

    My suspicion is that we ain’t seen nothing when it comes to insanity, ridiculous Palin-esque BS, etc. As the base consolidates its grip on the GOP everything’s gonna get worse.

  94. 94.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 9, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    @JGabriel: No, actually, the Catholic Church preserved the Roman Empire. What brought it down was wine in lead goblets. That’s what my 10th grade world history class taught me. I tend to think there was more to it, but it ain’t the Roman Catholic Church fur nuthin’!

  95. 95.

    Steeplejack

    August 9, 2009 at 4:38 pm

    @Linkmeister:

    Seen and noted.

    I believe–and I will test it here–that you can point someone to a previous comment, even in another thread, by using the same “reply to comment” gizmo as above, e.g.,

    {a href=”#comment-1325068″}test it here{/a}

    As usual, replace the curly braces with angle brackets.

    Just copy the comment number from the time stamp of the comment you want, or use the “reply to” arrow button to capture the whole code snippet and paste it into your current comment.

  96. 96.

    Steeplejack

    August 9, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    @Steeplejack:

    Okay, that didn’t work. My bad.

    Can you use the “external link” gizmo?

    {a href=”https://balloon-juice.com/?p=25179#comment-1325068″}the “external link” gizmo{/a}

  97. 97.

    Steeplejack

    August 9, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    @Steeplejack:

    Yes, you can.

  98. 98.

    henqiguai

    August 9, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    the “external link” gizmo

    Here’s what you want —

    &#060a href=”https://balloon-juice.com/?p=25179#comment-1325068”&#062the “external link” gizmo&#060/a&#062

    Oh, and to insert those angle brackets, &#060 and &#062, into “clear” text use the “character entity” strings. In this instance the “&” + “#” + “060” or “062”.

  99. 99.

    angulimala

    August 9, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    No, actually, the Catholic Church preserved the Roman Empire. What brought it down was wine in lead goblets. That’s what my 10th grade world history class taught me. I tend to think there was more to it, but it ain’t the Roman Catholic Church fur nuthin’!

    Yes, there is a lot more too it. Simplistic pat single-cause answers to complex historical events are annoying at best. At worst, they lead people to believe in stupid and destructive “answers” to their current problems.

  100. 100.

    Chris Johnson

    August 9, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    Using the Republican magic mirror of projection, it really looks like future GOP policies will be all death panels, all the time. Who to kill, how to kill them, how many to kill, and why this is a good thing for America!

    My concern here is that this is largely at the behest of large dominant corporations such as insurance monopolies, which ALREADY specifically hire people to deny claims, which by charter and by long-established habit are flat-out murderous entities out for nothing but profit.

    It looks to me like some VERY big concentrations of money and influence have decided that they will profit better in a fascist state, and have been making their support known to the Right politicians, who feel that they will have backing for a coup.

    The corporations are probably even right, in a limited sense, in that their profit-taking needs to be cut off at the knees since it’s unsustainable. if they can install a fascist system and MANDATE that everyone has to pay them and get nothing in return, they can continue. As corporate entities, there is nothing in particular to tell them this is wrong. Their only rule is earn more money within the law, and if the law is mutable, that’s a big loophole.

  101. 101.

    Mike in NC

    August 9, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    Newt’s still got his eye on the prize for 2012. He’s keeping Palin and the other competition on a leash and will sandbag them at the appropriate time, and when they least expect it.

  102. 102.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 9, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    @angulimala: Not quite sure if you are trashing me, J Gabriel, both of us or neither. My point was that the Christian Church subsumed the Empire and didn’t actually destroy it. Was it the Catholic label or what?

  103. 103.

    Chris Johnson

    August 9, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    And the significant point here is, to what extent are ACTIVE Republican politicians furthering this stuff?

    I see a distinction here. Sara at Orcinus has made an amazing post outlining the requirements for fascism to seize power and shut down government as we know it.

    I’m watching for Republicans currently serving their country to join these people, but what I’m seeing is- Palin. Gingrich. These are not active Republicans, they are people who have resigned public service.

    I want to say that while it’s confined to them, we’re probably okay on a grand scale (though we’re gonna get terrorist acts from rightwingers). I hope I’m right in that. I can’t see a full-on fascist takeover unless it comes from the Republicans who HAVEN’T resigned office. The way I see it, they have to have a myth of legitimacy, and people who’ve quit office don’t qualify.

    I’m not totally sure of this, but I’m going to still count Palin and Gingrich as ‘not the same’ as if it was officially republican officeholders.

  104. 104.

    Bob In Pacifica

    August 9, 2009 at 6:15 pm

    My favorite Newt Gingrich hit was during the year of the Republicans Contract On America. If you recall, Susan Smith, who strapped her two toddlers into the backseat of her car and then rolled the car into a lake because her boyfriend didn’t want kids, initially told the cops that some black guys had carjacked her kids (carjacking being the crime de jour in those days).

    Newt blamed Smith’s criminality on Bill Clinton’s moral failures, Clinton driving America into the ditch of immorality. Of course, those were the days when Henry Hyde was having youthful indiscretions and Newt himself was boning his secretary on his desk.

    The highest irony, which most folks missed because it wasn’t very widely reported, was that Smith had been sexually abused by her stepfather who had been a local muckitymuck in the county Republican Party down Carolina way. Her problems with motherhood undoubtedly had a lot to do with a minor Republican official.

  105. 105.

    angulimala

    August 9, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    @LeeLee

    I wasn’t intending to “trash” anyone, although I certainly think that the idea that either the Catholic church or drinking wine from lead cups was solely, or even primarily, responsible for the decline of the roman empire to be foolishly simplistic. I’m an Atheist with no Catholic background at all, so I’m not “defending” the church.

    There were many causes. Some were internal to the Empire (which are usually exaggerated and made the sole focus) and some completely external (which are usually ignored).

  106. 106.

    Bob In Pacifica

    August 9, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    Regarding the Roman Empire, there were a lot of ass-kicking Central Asian tribes pushing into Eastern Europe which pushed Germanic tribes into Gaul. As I recall (not that I was there) one group went through Gaul and Spain into North Africa, at the time the largest grain-producing region in the Empire, which effectively cut off Rome’s source of food and wealth, thus lessening Rome’s ability to raise gold and get an army to fight more direct threats to Italy. Meanwhile, the empire was getting hammered in what is present-day Yugoslavia and Romania, the empire bifurcated into Rome and Constantinople and things got more fucked up. There was a greater division of wealth and the peasants in North Africa, Italy, Spain and Gaul really couldn’t get all that motivated defending their Roman rulers over the new guys.

    Plus that lead goblet thing.

  107. 107.

    JGabriel

    August 9, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    Glenn Reynolds via JK:

    People have been turning out, in the tens of thousands at times, because they feel that Obama pulled a bait-and-switch …

    Right. The protesters are betrayed Obama voters.

    In a week chock full of stupid crocks of shit, that crock shit is amongst the stupidest of all.

    What a jackass.

    .

  108. 108.

    Demo Woman

    August 9, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    @Chris Johnson:

    I see a distinction here. Sara at Orcinus has made an amazing post outlining the requirements for fascism to seize power and shut down government as we know it.

    Sarah Palin’s comments were definitely over the line which is not surprising considering her husband’s association with Alaska Independence Party.

  109. 109.

    Ash Can

    August 9, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    Also, where is Reynolds getting this “tens of thousands” horseshit from, besides straight out of his ass? I suppose he’s counting everyone who showed up for the April 15th clown show, nationwide, at once. Ooh, impressive. Or maybe he’s a bit confused and is actually thinking of the tens of thousands of teabags that got dumped in someone’s boardroom, to make a powerful statement of, well, something or other.

  110. 110.

    Demo Woman

    August 9, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    @Demo Woman: not sure how I block quoted everything.
    Sara’s article at Orcinus was excellent.

  111. 111.

    JGabriel

    August 9, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    Bob In Pacifica:

    Plus that lead goblet thing.

    But clearly none of those other things would have happened if their leaders hadn’t been made crazy, stupid, and greedy from lead poisoning.

    Hmm. It kinda makes you wonder if there’s some substance commonly ingested by Republicans but not Democrats or independents.

    The only thing I can think of is Fox News, but I suspect that’s a symptom, not a cause.

    .

  112. 112.

    steve s

    August 9, 2009 at 6:45 pm

    It looks to me like some VERY big concentrations of money and influence have decided that they will profit better in a fascist state, and have been making their support known to the Right politicians, who feel that they will have backing for a coup.

    If Erik Prince thinks he’s going to be indicted for murder soon, maybe he’ll try to use his private army for this?

  113. 113.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 9, 2009 at 6:48 pm

    @JGabriel: Heh! I have often wondered what the Republicans grow on their massive estates. Perhaps it’s a particularly strong form of ganga? Anyhoo, always thought the lead thing precipitated a lot of the incest, child-rape and cruelty that marked the many last centuries of the Empire. At their strongest, the Huns, Goths, Visigoths. etc. were mowed down, or co-opted by brilliant tactical leaders who were then assassinated by the Emperors. Or have I gotten my history wrong?

  114. 114.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 9, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    I’ve been modererated! Something I said?

  115. 115.

    HyperIon

    August 9, 2009 at 6:58 pm

    It’s also amazing that you continue to be amazed.

  116. 116.

    JGabriel

    August 9, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    Leelee for Obama:

    Anyhoo, always thought the lead thing precipitated a lot of the incest, child-rape and cruelty that marked the many last centuries of the Empire.

    I’m sure it played a part, but one should never neglect the contributory effects of inbreeding.

    I have often wondered what the Republicans grow on their massive estates. Perhaps it’s a particularly strong form of ganga?

    No, that just turns Republicans into Libertarians.

    I wish I knew what it was. I’m sure there’s a Nobel Prize and a fortune in pharmaceutical sales for whoever figures out how to reverse the effects.

    .

  117. 117.

    JGabriel

    August 9, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    Ok, now I’ve been modereratered.

    It must something Leelee said.

    .

  118. 118.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 9, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    I started a real comment war over on GOS. Someone posted a diary saying the Teabaggers wouldn’t recognize a Nazi if one joined them I commented that of course the wouldn’t else why does Pat Buchanan have a forum? You should see the long list of comments arguing for and against Pat’s National Socialist leanings! I’m gonna have to watch what I write. Jeez, I thought his defense of Demanjuk was direct proof, but go know!

  119. 119.

    Leelee for Obama

    August 9, 2009 at 7:39 pm

    Oh shit, I typed the s-word!

    @JGabriel:

    Part a-agreed. It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature. She bites!

    Part b-I’m sure someone from Pfizer knows something-keep your eyes peeled for the commercial!

  120. 120.

    Gus

    August 9, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    What you’re ignoring is, absent a decent watchdog press, this tactic works. I heard a report on the news that uncritically played Gingrich’s ramblings without the barest hint of analysis.

  121. 121.

    angulimala

    August 9, 2009 at 8:20 pm

    JGabriel

    But clearly none of those other things would have happened if their leaders hadn’t been made crazy, stupid, and greedy from lead poisoning.

    Their rulers were not crazy or stupid – or at least not particularly crazier or stupider than they were at the height of the Empire. The most famous crazy and corrupt emperors were guys like Calligula and Nero who reigned in the century after Augustus and can not, in any way, be blamed for the collapse 3 centuries later. Greedy? Probably, but, again, many Emperors were greedy including plenty, like Nero, who ruled when the Empire was still strong.

    Later emperors were not particularly worse than early emperors. The world – both inside and outside Rome – did get less forgiving.

  122. 122.

    Xenos

    August 9, 2009 at 9:18 pm

    @angulimala:
    Braudel pointed out many other factors that escape most historical explanations, such as the siltation of most Italian rivers due to centuries of intensive agriculture. Unable to dredge out their major ports, the center of the Western empire became a backwater. The exhaustion of the soils also limited Rome’s ability to sustain itself. Once it was clear that a well organized bunch of Vandals could bring the empire to its knees by going through Africa, the smart money went East.

  123. 123.

    shortstop

    August 9, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    No Republican may stand alone in saying something that goes beyond the pale even for fellow Republicans. It takes some doing to cross that line, but when it happens, as it did when Sarah shared her special Facebook stylings this week, another Republican must immediately leap in to get her back. (Newt, not having had any dignity for more than 20 years, is usually willing to take on this role.)

    In this way, 1) no leading light of the GOP may be characterized as isolated in his/her madness, 2) the base is relieved to discover that what they heard and got little stiffies over is really “mainstream,” and 3) the general level of public discourse sinks even lower. Win, win, win.

  124. 124.

    Steeplejack

    August 9, 2009 at 10:01 pm

    @henqiguai:

    &#060Testing, testing, testing.&#062

    Thanks. I think tried some variation of that a few months ago and the WordPress interpreter “misinterpreted” it for me.

    Let’s see how this looks.

  125. 125.

    Viva BrisVegas

    August 10, 2009 at 1:16 am

    As to the Roman Empire, it’s been a while since I read my Gibbon, but it was always my impression that the classical Empire fell to external forces only because it had already failed internally.

    The basic failure of the structure of the Empire lay in its inability to reconcile the impulses towards both centralisation and decentralisation. Given the technology of the day, it was too big to rule from Rome, yet every attempt to decentralise ended in civil war. So throughout the 3rd and 4th centuries there is a constant cycle of civil war, centralisation, decentralisation and civil war.

    Additionally, the conversion of small farmholdings into larger slave based agribusinesses and the consolidation of wealth to the politically powerful, forced the Italian peasantry into a form of serfdom, making them no longer suitable as troops. The Italian peninsula was therefore unable to defend itself. This necessitated an ever increasing dependence on barbarian mercenaries whose loyalty to the Empire was nominal at best.

    The inevitable result was the rupturing of the Empire by those same barbarians. The retreat to the more defensible Constantinople allowed the Eastern Roman Empire to persist until it was virtually destroyed by the Catholic West in the sacking by the Fourth Crusade in 1204.

    In end the Roman Empire did not fall, it was killed by Western Christians sent by Rome.

  126. 126.

    Steeplejack

    August 10, 2009 at 1:33 am

    On topic: new book out called The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians, by Peter Heather. Supposed to synthesize all the new research over the last 20-30 years to offer a fresh perspective.

  127. 127.

    Kilkee

    August 10, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    @eric: Yes, exactly. Why is Newt not considered a complete and total falure and joke? He rode in on a white horse of rectitude, despite his own moral, ahem, lapses, did nothing of note during his tenure as Speaker other than talk a good game and get his ass kicked by Clinton after his petulance over a plane ride led him to shut down the government. He returned to East Bumshit, GA, where he has spent a decade — a decade! — accomplishing absolutely nothing, yet he is still trotted out by the villagers as if he were a combination of Steven Hawking and Metternich. Even his frequent and obvious lapses into utter stupidity (his Sonia Sotomayor ‘racist’ Twitter, for example) seem to do nothing to dent his status as The Wise Old Sage of the GOP.

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