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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Oddly Enough, Not Hanging Effigies Creates Better Outcomes

Oddly Enough, Not Hanging Effigies Creates Better Outcomes

by John Cole|  August 10, 20096:21 pm| 89 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics

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Amazing how constructive town hall events can be, even when you ask tough questions, if there are no wingnuts in the audience chanting “TYRANNY” and “DEATH PANELS” and “SOCIALISM”:

Read the whole write-up. It is almost like Hoyer and Pelosi were onto something this morning when they talked about the un-American behavior of trying to shut down town hall meetings with insane mobs.

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89Comments

  1. 1.

    Warren Terra

    August 10, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    Off topic, but relevant to the most widely-disseminated, most inflammatory lie about health care that’s being used to whip up these mobs: Ezra Klein did a simple but brilliant thing, and interviewed the conservative Republican Senator whose amendment is being traduced as creating “death panels”, Johhny Isakson of Georgia.

    First question: “Is this bill going to euthanize my grandmother?”

  2. 2.

    fliegr

    August 10, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    Effigies. I know, I know…

  3. 3.

    NickM

    August 10, 2009 at 6:36 pm

    Look at that conservative guy attacking the interviewer in the first sequence, about a minute in. What do you read from that guy’s body language? I get aggression and beneath that fear. It’s where they’re always coming from.

  4. 4.

    demkat620

    August 10, 2009 at 6:37 pm

    Now if we could just have a few more lie Perriello, we just might survive this.

    I know I am tired of the bullshit.

  5. 5.

    demkat620

    August 10, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    @demkat620: like Perriello. Like.

  6. 6.

    John Cole

    August 10, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    @fliegr: I already fixed it- saw it as soon as I hit publish. Grr..

  7. 7.

    JK

    August 10, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    OT

    Dan Froomkin’s Debut on Huffington Post
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/10/our-fuzzy-president-is-ab_n_255524.html

    Good Luck Dan

  8. 8.

    geg6

    August 10, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    Meanwhile, the man who last week was screaming that Obama was going to kill his son with cystic fibrosis was on FOX today saying that Pelosi sent thugs to his home the very night of that town hall he was filmed at to threaten him and his family if he didn’t shut up and let them kill his son. Perhaps this man has been driven insane by the stress of his child’s illness. I can certainly see how that could happen. But why must Rupert’s minions exploit this obviously mentally disturbed man? I despair at the horrid specimens of my species on display lately.

  9. 9.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 10, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    Where are we in the American Experiment when a Congressmen starts out a discussion on health care reform with a disclaimer that dems aren’t going to euthanize you. It’s insane.

    This is about two things. A liberal person in the WH and liberals running government. Actually, it’s about three things, the first two are par for the course in Right Wing stupidity in believing untrue stuff. You throw in a liberal in the WH that is black and you have combustible wingnuttery on an increasing scale. We are just getting started.

  10. 10.

    JK

    August 10, 2009 at 6:44 pm

    Newsflash – Sarah Palin is still a hypocrite and an asshole

    After “Death Panel” Claim, Palin Now Calls For CIVILITY
    h/t http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/10/palin-backs-off-death-pan_n_255317.html

  11. 11.

    kay

    August 10, 2009 at 6:44 pm

    @Warren Terra:

    It’s so stupid, because the advanced directive discussion is great. I mean, I actually enjoyed it. I did it after Schiavo. You write your own rules, a long-held dream of mine. What’s not to love about that?
    I didn’t have it with a doctor, and went to a lawyer, but it was not upsetting or coercive or scary in anyway.
    What is scary to me is Tom Delay camped out on my front lawn, making a freaking circus out of me and my family, or WORSE, testimony in a courtroom when I can’t appear and defend.
    What can people be thinking? If you don’t make these decisions, they get made. Someone has to act, at some point. They’d rather it be a judge? Why, for God’s sake?

  12. 12.

    matt

    August 10, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    I love me some Tom Perriello. For those who don’t know, he’s a progressive dem representing a deep red part of Virginia. Sort of an anti blue dog. This is (or should be) the blueprint for democrats in red parts of the country, not this blue dog nonsense.

  13. 13.

    zoe kentucky

    August 10, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    Perriello was awesome. Many of the people in the audience were painfully stupid and uninformed. This bill will “bring us back to chains and slavery”??!??? C’mon. It’s HEALTH CARE REFORM.

    What are these people smoking and where can I get some?

    On second thought, the seem to be smoking something that makes them paranoid, delusional, irrational, hostile and impossible to talk to. They’re the last of the die-hard republicans and are “believers” in every sense of the word– facts and truth don’t matter.

  14. 14.

    Svensker

    August 10, 2009 at 6:50 pm

    @zoe kentucky:

    On second thought, the seem to be smoking something that makes them paranoid, delusional, irrational, hostile and impossible to talk to.

    Hmmmm.. You know how small town America is a hotbed of meth addiction now. Wonder if there’s any connection…

  15. 15.

    Cat Lady

    August 10, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    @kay:

    What can be people be thinking? “The sheriff’s a n*****”.

    You’re welcome.

  16. 16.

    Perry Como

    August 10, 2009 at 6:54 pm

    @Warren Terra: Rock. The. Fuck. On.

  17. 17.

    geg6

    August 10, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    kay: I, too, have an living will. My mother, a devout and loyal Catholic had one, too. It’s a great comfort to know you’re in control no matter what happens to you. I had mine done when my sisters and I had to meet with my mom and dad’s attorney as executrixes of their wills. He suggested we do our own wills and living wills as we talked with him about how well my parents planned. So we all did. And we’re all glad we did. And can I just give Arianna some big kudos for not just hiring Froomkin, but putting him in charge of the DC bureau for HuffPo. Best editorial decision by any media entity since Rachel got her spot on MSNBC. In fact, it beats even that by several exponents.

  18. 18.

    Zifnab

    August 10, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    @John Cole: Must be nice to have an edit button.

  19. 19.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    August 10, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    The man standing out front stabbing his finger in the other guy’s face, my tax dollars better not be paying for his breasts.

  20. 20.

    Rosali

    August 10, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    My rep has decided not to have a live townhall and is having a tele-conference instead. I’m not sure how that’s going to work logistically or practically. On one hand, I understand because the senior commandoes in this district can mobilize and create quite a ruckus. (It’s not uncommon to have condo assn meetings here devolve into yelling and pushing). On the other hand, I wanted to attend one in person to find out about about the public option and to show that there are voters who want reform.

    Congratulations wingnuts. You’ve managed to put a stop to the democratic process.

  21. 21.

    kay

    August 10, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    @Cat Lady:

    Well, there’s that. They can write a strongly-worded advance directive, with exclamation points, to actually protect against President Obama’s killing frenzy. Like their signs!

    If they want all the bells and whistles, “extraordinary measures”, they can have that. Just put it in there. This is a privileged conversation, whether it’s with a lawyer or a doctor. It’s private. Unless the doctor is some kind of guilt-inducing ghoul, there won’t be “pressure” to do anything.

  22. 22.

    Bubblegum Tate

    August 10, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    Periello did a great job there, and at least the nutters expressed their crazy in a calm, succint manner instead of their usual screaming tantrum routine.

    I did love how Captain Moobs couldn’t even acknowledge any common ground with “the enemy.” “You just want us to agree with you!” I bet that guy is excellent at cutting off his nose to spite his face.

  23. 23.

    dmsilev

    August 10, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    @Warren Terra:

    Off topic, but relevant to the most widely-disseminated, most inflammatory lie about health care that’s being used to whip up these mobs: Ezra Klein did a simple but brilliant thing, and interviewed the conservative Republican Senator whose amendment is being traduced as creating “death panels”, Johhny Isakson of Georgia.

    And in a sane world, this amendment would be held up as an example of actual honest-to-God functional bipartisanship. A member of the minority proposed an amendment that most people would see as sensible. Said amendment was duly incorporated into the main bill. Normally, that would be the end of the story.

    Obviously, we don’t live in a sane world.

    -dms

  24. 24.

    kay

    August 10, 2009 at 7:12 pm

    @geg6:

    I’m glad I’m not alone in thoroughly enjoying my will-drafting afternoon. The “nutrition” question was hard. What did you put down? Kidding. I’m kidding. I know this is deadly serious.

  25. 25.

    bobbo

    August 10, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    I think what we are witnessing is a touch of NIMBY-ism on a national scale. These people are just like my neighbors organizing to stop nearby development. They see the possibility of change – any change – and they are instantly against it. Having already made up their minds, they come up with whatever they can think of to oppose it. They are beyond persuasion.

  26. 26.

    ericvsthem

    August 10, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    Even if Perriello was unable to change any minds, people left that town hall better informed and, importantly, with a measure of respect for their Congressman. People forget that some of our best and brightest choose to run for public office versus lucrative careers in the private sector and Tom serves as a reminder of that fact.

  27. 27.

    Bender

    August 10, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    Now the SEIU is calling for union thugs to show up and confront opponents of health care reform at a townhall in Stamford, CT saying:

    “It is critical that our members with real, personal stories about the need for access to quality, affordable care come out in strong numbers to drown out their voices”

    Therefore Pelosi must think the SEIU is “un-American.”

    Q.E.D.

  28. 28.

    Comrade Kevin

    August 10, 2009 at 7:29 pm

    @Bender: I notice you didn’t give a link with that statement, so we could, you know, look at the context of it.

  29. 29.

    Josh Huaco

    August 10, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    @Comrade Kevin:

    I notice you didn’t give a link with that statement, so we could, you know, look at the context of it.

    Bender does that shit all the time. That makes it the worst of our trolls.

  30. 30.

    Josh E.

    August 10, 2009 at 7:34 pm

    Here it is

    http://www.seiu2001.org/Healthcare_Town_Hall_Forum_with_Congressman_Jim_Himes.aspx

    It’s true, “drown out their voices” could mean “shout down their voices,” or it could mean “outnumber them so the effect of their statements is greatly outweighed by the effect of ours.” But the former would be an un-American tactic, just as the tactics (not people) that Pelosi and Hoyer criticized. Do you have a point to make about the video or healthcare in general, or are you satisfied with the ol’ tu quoque?

  31. 31.

    Irony Abounds

    August 10, 2009 at 7:34 pm

    I’d like to be optimistic, but frankly, I don’t think all this is going to end very well. Either some version of health care reform is passed, and the wingnuts use that to demonize the ones how passed it, or it fails and the wingnuts use that to show the Dems can’t run the country. Given that the bills under consideration do have considerable flaws and are unlikely to show results any time soon, the Republicans are going to rout the Dems in 2010 and a whole bunch of really awful people will be elected. Which only means trouble for 2012.

    Anyone know how easy it is to emigrate to Australia?

  32. 32.

    AhabTRuler

    August 10, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    Anyone know how easy it is to emigrate to Australia?

    Depends. Are you Indonesian?

  33. 33.

    Patrick

    August 10, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    JC: “Amazing how constructive town hall events can be, even when you ask tough questions, if there are no wingnuts in the audience chanting “TYRANNY” and “DEATH PANELS” and “SOCIALISM”:

    That depends on exactly what it is you are trying to construct. If you are trying to construct an emotional base rallying against change that might hurt corporate profit, not so much.

  34. 34.

    geg6

    August 10, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    Comrade Kevin: Hell, I don’t even need context to shoot that easy one down. Just read the sentence. The union asked members to come out in numbers to tell personal stories of health care situations where reform would provide a better outcome, like my friend who was forced by his insurance company to choose between what was left of his life (a quad who’d run through his lifetime allotment of coverage) and his family’s future ability to feed and house themselves. Literally. So apparently Bender thinks that’s the same as shipping in mobs, hyping up low information and easily influenced rubes, providing them with the most ludicrously stupid talking points, and encouraging them to scream incoherently until all civil discussion becomes impossible. Yup, those are exactly the same thing.

  35. 35.

    kay

    August 10, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    @Irony Abounds:

    I’m not all that optimistic, but I do disagree with that. All they have to do is pass a decent bill and the tea party people will move on to the next issue, which, unless I miss my guess, is screaming about immigration, again. I look forward to that, I assure you. Remember the stink they made about the stimulus? All Democrats need is a slightly better economy and all the stimulus nonsense goes out the window. I think they’ll end up running on the stimulus.
    Remember: they’re making it up. There are no death panels, there is no government-funded abortion, there are no huge cuts in Medicare. It’s not IN there, and that’s the House bill, and we’re getting a more moderate bill than that.
    The bill passes. Old people realize they were completely lied to. Maybe not that second part…old people lose interest because nothing much happens to Medicare.
    The risk is not passing it. If they don’t, Democrats will hate them, and old people will think Republicans saved their lives.

  36. 36.

    geg6

    August 10, 2009 at 7:48 pm

    What kay @35 said. Exactly.

  37. 37.

    jenniebee

    August 10, 2009 at 7:48 pm

    What really blows my mind is that Perriello’s district shares a long border with Eric Cantor’s.

  38. 38.

    Xenos

    August 10, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    @Bender: Bender – do you even know which groups of workers are organized by the SEIU?

    Hint: they are not stevedores or iron-workers. But they might iron your flat ass even flatter should they catch up with you. So you had better run, honkey.

  39. 39.

    kay

    August 10, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    @geg6:

    Why do conservatives refer to all union members as “thugs”?

    We can assume they’re exempting police and fire, right?

    Well, police. Some police. Certain police officers.

  40. 40.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 10, 2009 at 7:55 pm

    @Bender:

    Posting wingnuttery again without links. If you aren’t using Firefox, start.
    Then install this formatting toolbar to make links to your non-sense.

    Or, learn to code.

  41. 41.

    Xenos

    August 10, 2009 at 7:58 pm

    @kay: Because, in their mental world, they coulda been contenders, they coulda been somebody, instead of bums, which are what they are.

  42. 42.

    Martin

    August 10, 2009 at 8:03 pm

    So, the abstract for the linked piece is that anyone old enough to have voted for Reagan can’t find their assholes unless someone on Madison Ave puts out a 30 second spot telling them where it is and why they should want to find it.

    Great. And I thought my 8 year-old had a short attention span and a laziness toward thinking critically. Instead, the CEO generation as an approximate group has her beat.

  43. 43.

    jenniebee

    August 10, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    @Bender: curse those thugs with their violently thuggish moving, personal stories!

    DAMN YOU, SCOTT BEAUCHAMP!1!ELEVENTYSQUILLION!

  44. 44.

    kay

    August 10, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    @Xenos:

    I can’t imagine being a Republican union member. “Welcome, thugs!”

    Did they not notice who was standing behind last week’s conservative hero, Crowley? His union rep. Never far from any police officer in trouble….

  45. 45.

    kay

    August 10, 2009 at 8:11 pm

    Funny:

    PINEVILLE — U.S. Sen. David Vitter told an audience of just under 1,500 people Saturday that he is “totally and unalterably opposed” to health care reform legislation proposed in Congress, but he said he has some ideas of his own on the subject of health care, and discussed three of them.

    The Louisiana Republican spoke at what was billed as a town hall meeting at Louisiana College’s Guinn Auditorium. It was a friendly audience but there was little chance for disagreement to be expressed.

    The panel of speakers all joined Vitter in opposing the reform package being debated in Congress. Questions from audience members were screened and selected in advance of the event.

  46. 46.

    JWW

    August 10, 2009 at 8:17 pm

    John,

    It is obvious you are good at selecting content for the blog. Your readers seem too think that all consevatives hate all union memebers.

    Your selling point is specific selection not random or open sampling. You fail your readers by selecting only what they want to read. As I have stated so many times before, you are a POS and an Ex-failed soldier who now makes a living as an online National Enqirer.

    The unions are and have been a corrupt MOB for as long as any of your readers have been alive. There is a place for them but they need to be negated in their infuence on our national decisions.

  47. 47.

    Warren Terra

    August 10, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    @ Kay #45

    Well, Vitter does have a reputation for getting what he wants.

  48. 48.

    nevsky42

    August 10, 2009 at 8:28 pm

    Tom Perriello replaced the odious Virgil Goode in our district, a huge trade up. I’ll be attending his event in Charlottesville tomorrow, which should have a somewhat friendlier crowd…

  49. 49.

    ericvsthem

    August 10, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    @nevsky42: Hard to think of a bigger upgrade. My district did alright when we upgraded from Curt Weldon to Joe Sestak in 2006, but doesn’t look like Joe plans to hold any town halls… though he does hang out at the diner down the street from me and is quite accessible.

  50. 50.

    JWW

    August 10, 2009 at 8:42 pm

    And John,

    Not to confuse your blog posts. How could President Clinton make a trip to North Korea without any knowledge of President Obama or the current Sec of Defense. I would see that as an act of treason on any given day.

    You keep spinning for them.

  51. 51.

    Jay B.

    August 10, 2009 at 8:46 pm

    Your readers seem too think that all consevatives hate all union memebers. (misspellings in original quote)

    Yeah, fucking liberals all quick to judg…oh, wait, there’s more?

    The unions are and have been a corrupt MOB for as long as any of your readers have been alive.

    Um, yeah. You see. Because. Also. Ex-non-jerk. I hope there’s an optimistic coda!

    There is a place for them but they need to be negated in their infuence on our national decisions.

    Oh, hey, THANKS JWW. That’s mighty huge of you. Sure, conservatives don’t hate union folk, they just think unions are corrupt mobs whose place at the table needs to be negated.

    You are too stupid to breathe. And if you ever knew a real union guy, you would be picking your teeth off the floor for saying that. And then the guy would buy you a drink and give you a chance to reconsider. Asshole.

  52. 52.

    gwangung

    August 10, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    @JWW:

    It’s obvious that you don’t have a lot of real world experience. A lot of folks around here do, both with unions and with management.

    *sigh*

    You’re so naive. Tsk, tsk….

  53. 53.

    kay

    August 10, 2009 at 8:53 pm

    @Warren Terra:

    He jeered at the Democrats who requested security at events.

    Screaming is not a problem if you don’t let dissenters speak, right?

  54. 54.

    kay

    August 10, 2009 at 8:56 pm

    @JWW:

    I think you hate all union members because you called them all a “corrupt mob”.

    Maybe you can clarify. Is this like “death panels”? Obama isn’t really going to kill Sarah’s baby. He’s not!

  55. 55.

    burnspbesq

    August 10, 2009 at 8:56 pm

    Hmmm … Based on Ezra’s interview, I may have to reconsider my existing impression of Isaakson. At least on that issue, his position is thoughtful and sensible. This is what bipartisanship used to look like, before Karl Rove reinvented it as date rape without booze or condoms.

  56. 56.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    August 10, 2009 at 9:00 pm

    @JWW:

    Your readers seem too think that all consevatives hate all union memebers.

    I can’t imagine why John’s readers would think that, or from whom they would have gotten that impression.

    The unions are and have been a corrupt MOB for as long as any of your readers have been alive. There is a place for them but they need to be negated in their infuence on our national decisions.

    Oh, right. That’s why.
    Never mind.

  57. 57.

    Comrade Darkness

    August 10, 2009 at 9:04 pm

    @JK: Ah yeah. Classic bully tactic. Throw out some nasty shit and then when you lose ground because your opponent starts fighting back, call for a time out and pretend you want a fair fight. Who else do we know like this? Hm… oh my god, she’s Kim Jong Il!

  58. 58.

    NR

    August 10, 2009 at 9:06 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck: We most certainly do not have a liberal in the White House. And frankly, right now, I’m not even convinced we have someone all that smart in the White House. For his latest trick, Obama has undermined Pelosi and Hoyer by speaking up in support of the teabaggers (though his deputy press secretary).

    I just don’t know what’s going on in that man’s head with this. No idea.

  59. 59.

    Craig

    August 10, 2009 at 9:08 pm

    @nevsky42:

    I’m in the 9th (go Hokies) – we didn’t have to do dick for our guy, because he runs unopposed every term (which I kind of hate, but Boucher is okay). We were pretty excited that Periello won on election night, because a lot of us have met him and really like the guy and his politics, but what are his chances for 2010?

  60. 60.

    Pockmark Notorious

    August 10, 2009 at 9:10 pm

    I like how that one lady described The NATIONAL Endowment of the Arts as being in San Fransisco.

  61. 61.

    Comrade Darkness

    August 10, 2009 at 9:13 pm

    @AhabTRuler: While you are shopping around, take a look at NZ too. Lived there for half a year. Gets kinda culturally thrownback to 1950 in the rural parts, but Auckland is marvelously metropolitan. And you get beaches and skiing within just a short drive.

  62. 62.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 10, 2009 at 9:25 pm

    @NR:

    Liberal is a relative term. And to wingnuts he’s to the left of Leon Trotsky. I consider myself a liberal, though not doctrinaire. If you look at the bills he’s passed, they are pretty damn liberal or progressive. The biggest progressive bill in history was the stimulus. But I know, he let the blue dogs cut it by a hundred mill. So fucking what. Too many on the left focus on a tree or two, and miss the goddamned forest.

    And as far as the daily tit for tat, he talks like a centrist, but it’s theater for the masses. He and Pelosi are on the same page and what goes on behind the scenes we don’t hear about. It’s called strategy. He is the presnit of all the people and has to sound that way to stay above the fray, while Pelosi is the partisan SOTH. Kabucki, no more no less.

  63. 63.

    burnspbesq

    August 10, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    @Comrade Darkness:

    The thing that has always intrigued me about the Kiwis is … if Steinlager is the swill that they brew for export, how good is the stuff they keep to themselves?

  64. 64.

    Bubblegum Tate

    August 10, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    @Pockmark Notorious:

    Yeah, that whole statement of hers was filled with WTF?

  65. 65.

    HRA

    August 10, 2009 at 9:45 pm

    I am guessing that there was a meeting conducted by an aide to the Congressman before the meeting at the start of the video. That was very wise. More often than not it serves to settle some people down after having voiced their complaint.

    That was a good townhall meeting. Bravo Perriello.

    Personally I have had more good than bad experiences with the unions I have belonged to. My choice would be to work where there is a union and I have worked in a non-union job, too.

  66. 66.

    NR

    August 10, 2009 at 9:47 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck: No liberal would have started the health care debate by taking single-payer off the table. Even if that wasn’t where we would have ended up, by starting from single-payer, we could have forced a strong public option as the compromise.

    But by pre-compromising on the issue, we’re stuck with watered-down crap as the only options. Seriously, even the House bill is watered-down crap. Its public option won’t be open to everyone (Pelosi estimates that only 10 million people will be on it) and doesn’t even begin until 2013. And on top of that, more and more Senators are saying that there might not be any public option at all, and the White House recently said that they’re open to co-ops.

    The White House (and Congress, for that matter) did not start the health care debate from a progressive position, and the only way it’s moved since is to the right. Right now, it’s looking like we’ll be lucky to get the watered-down House plan, and we could very well end up with something worse.

    If Obama is a liberal, he’s the most incompetent one ever.

  67. 67.

    Comrade Darkness

    August 10, 2009 at 9:49 pm

    @burnspbesq: Um Steinlager is awful. Or it is there. I mean their ads are cool as shit, but if you got hold of a drinkable bottle it was contract brewed, I guarantee it.

    Unless I misunderstood you…

  68. 68.

    Bender

    August 10, 2009 at 9:57 pm

    [quote]Posting wingnuttery again without links. If you aren’t using Firefox, start.
    Then install this formatting toolbar to make links to your non-sense.[/quote]

    Nice. Thanks, General.

    Now, for some wingnuttery with links, which I guess makes it not so wingnutty, but more, you know, fact.

    [url=http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/08/unamerican-attacks-cant-derail-health-care-debate-.html]Pelosi[/url]:
    [quote]
    “Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American.”[/quote]

    Thanks, Nan! SEIU, your [url=http://www.seiu2001.org/Healthcare_Town_Hall_Forum_with_Congressman_Jim_Himes.aspx]response[/url]?
    [quote]
    “It is critical that our members with real, personal stories about the need for access to quality, affordable care [i]come out in strong numbers to drown out their voices[/i]”[/quote]

  69. 69.

    Bender

    August 10, 2009 at 10:01 pm

    [quote]Posting wingnuttery again without links. If you aren’t using Firefox, start.
    Then install this formatting toolbar to make links to your non-sense.[/quote]

    Nice. Thanks, General.

    Now, for some wingnuttery with links, which I guess makes it not so wingnutty, but more, you know, fact.

    [url=http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/08/unamerican-attacks-cant-derail-health-care-debate-.html]Pelosi[/url]:
    [quote]
    “Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American.”[/quote]

    Thanks, Nan! SEIU, your [url=http://www.seiu2001.org/Healthcare_Town_Hall_Forum_with_Congressman_Jim_Himes.aspx]response[/url]?
    [quote]
    “It is critical that our members with real, personal stories about the need for access to quality, affordable care [i]come out in strong numbers to drown out their voices[/i]”[/quote]

    Parse away, hypocrites!

  70. 70.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 10, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    @NR:

    Everything that is going on now is bullshit. There are 5 or 6 bills dangling out there. It is how legislation is legislated in this country. Even though I expect a really bad bill out of the Senate, and a better one out of the House. Those maneuvers mean little. The action and witching hour will start in a reconciliation conference, and later the slug out in the Senate.

    The only criticism I might have, is the whole process should have started sooner, but I am always aware that Obama didn’t get where he is by being incompetent, and I will take his political smarts over yours anyday of the week.

    And as far as starting with single payer, your position is non-sense. It would have given the wingnuts a giant ya ya to club dems with as doing away with private insurance in one fell swoop. It would have rallied the opposition to such a fevered pitch, nothing would have gotten passed. Kinda like 1993.

    But clutch them pearls and second guess all you want. This was never going to be easy, and we may end up with nothing, or a flawed something. But the real decision was always going to be made in Congress regardless, especially the Senate and whether dems have the nuts to do it with the 51 vote process. And even with that, there are many ways the Byrd Rule can fuck things up in the end.

  71. 71.

    burnspbesq

    August 10, 2009 at 10:11 pm

    @Comrade Darkness:

    I remember the Steinlager I’ve had in the US as teh good stuff.

    The best beer I’ve ever had, bar none, is something called Cascade Lager, that comes from a little brewery in Hobart, Tasmania. Only place I’ve ever been able to get it was in Tassie. Couldn’t even find it in Sydney.

  72. 72.

    zoe kentucky

    August 10, 2009 at 10:24 pm

    JWW = rude stupid dickhead

    Can’t put it more simply than that.

  73. 73.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 10, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    @Bender: Set the code bar on HTML

  74. 74.

    nevsky42

    August 10, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    @Craig:

    I think the biggest obstacle for Perriello is just the demographics of the district; VA-5 is pretty conservative as a whole, Charlottesville notwithstanding. It’s hard to tell what Perriello’s chances are right now, though, because Goode isn’t running again and no serious candidate has announced on the Republican side yet. But any non-crazy Repub should be the favorite in that race. Waldo Jaquith’s blog is great for C-ville politics: http://waldo.jaquith.org/

  75. 75.

    NR

    August 10, 2009 at 10:50 pm

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    And as far as starting with single payer, your position is non-sense. It would have given the wingnuts a giant ya ya to club dems with as doing away with private insurance in one fell swoop.

    Right, as opposed to what they’re saying now, which is so much friendlier.

    Look, I (mostly) knew what I was getting when I voted for Obama, and I am willing to cut the guy a lot of slack on a lot of issues. But don’t try to sell me on the idea that he’s in any way progressive. He’s not. From his foreign policy (expanding the war in Afghanistan) to his economic policy (Geithner and Summers throwing money at Wall Street) to his social policy (no action on DOMA or DADT yet) he has been, at best, a center-right president.

    So far, the left has held most of its fire because we are waiting to see if he can get us real health care reform. But if he sells us out on this, Obama is going to have problems on the left. I guarantee it. That’s just the way it is.

    Now, maybe you can see a path to a good health care reform bill from the crappy House bill and even crappier Senate bill. I can’t, but I’m willing to wait and see. But I don’t have an endless supply of patience.

  76. 76.

    cj

    August 10, 2009 at 11:13 pm

    @zoe kentucky: When were white people ever in chains and slavery here in America?

    I that woman is off her rocker.

    Like everyone else I think Perriello did a great job, but I wish I could have heard some of his responses, especially to the lady (wish not to go back to chains and slavery *rolleyes*) and their reactions to his responses.

  77. 77.

    cj

    August 10, 2009 at 11:24 pm

    Oops that should be ” I think that women…..”

  78. 78.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 10, 2009 at 11:42 pm

    @NR:

    So far, the left has held most of its fire

    But I don’t have an endless supply of patience.

    The left is a small fraction of the demo party, it is too often dogmatic and uncompromising and that takes it in another direction than Progressive. That said, it is also important for it’s activism. Progressive is above all else pragmatic. It is making things better and is not ideological, and is certainly not dogmatic.

    6 months in and your impatient. Well lotty tee da. You give no credit for things accomplished in that short span of Obama’s 4 to 8 year presnitcy, and wring your hands why it all hasn’t been done yet.

    And I didn’t mean to imply Obama was a “(P)rogressive. But he is a small p one.

    . But don’t try to sell me on the idea that he’s in any way progressive. He’s not. From his foreign policy (expanding the war in Afghanistan) to his economic policy (Geithner and Summers throwing money at Wall Street) to his social policy (no action on DOMA or DADT yet) he has been, at best, a center-right president.

    So he should have let the whole financial sector collapse and turn Afghanistan back to OBL and the Taliban. Great. Your just the other side of the same nutter coin as the wingers. And I don’t give two shits if your impatient. Rally behind Nader, or Kucinich for ’12.

  79. 79.

    Martin

    August 11, 2009 at 12:18 am

    So he should have let the whole financial sector collapse and turn Afghanistan back to OBL and the Taliban. Great. Your just the other side of the same nutter coin as the wingers. And I don’t give two shits if your impatient. Rally behind Nader, or Kucinich for ‘12.

    Um, those aren’t binary scenarios, and it’s disingenuous to suggest that if we hadn’t taken precisely the path that we took that the only alternative was to do exactly the opposite.

    Obama could have temporarily nationalized the banks and had Holder draw up criminal indictments on the executives. He could have taxed their profits at 100% until TARP was repaid. There are a lot of things he could have done which would have had the same (or possibly better) outcomes but sent a much clearer message to Wall Street that they better not fuck the country over again. I’m not convinced that this whole episode won’t repeat in 5 years. What’s their incentive to not blow the place up again?

  80. 80.

    FlipYrWhig

    August 11, 2009 at 12:34 am

    Hey, the end of this thread is like the Digby comments! Most disillusioned fastest wins! GO!

    “I told you so!” “I knew it!” “Progressive, my ass!” “I saw through him!” “They’re all the same!”

    Ooh, once again, it’s a 36-way tie! Join us next week for another installment of “So You Think You Can Angst,” with special guest judges, Alexander Cockburn and Jonathan Turley! They’ll be very disturbed… if you don’t tune in!

  81. 81.

    Jack Canuck

    August 11, 2009 at 12:36 am

    @burnspbesq:

    No Cascade in Sydney? It’s all over the place here in Melbourne. But if you want good stuff down here, try the James Squire (preferably the Amber Ale, but the others are good too) or Three Ravens.

  82. 82.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 11, 2009 at 12:39 am

    @Martin:

    The whole bailout thing is a big fuzzy ball to me. So I don’t propose to know if Obama has done things the best they could have been done to solve the problem. Besides, much of the Tarp was set in motion by the Bushies.

    One thing seems for sure though, which is what I took NR to be saying, that not providing financial support from the general fund would have been a calamity. We saw what happened when Lehman went under and that surely would have been a disasterous option for the others, especially with AIG.

    I’ve long been on record saying Obama made a mistake putting the same people in charge of fixing the problem, who were also involved in causing it, Geightner, and Summers. The whole thing makes me ill, albeit necessary.

    There is supposed to be a follow up bill to re-regulate this industry and is on the legislative block along with the other umpteen items to fix the GOP mess. Hopefully, when inacted, it will present some obstacle to a repeat in 5 years.

  83. 83.

    burnspbesq

    August 11, 2009 at 12:47 am

    @Martin:

    “Obama could have temporarily nationalized the banks and had Holder draw up criminal indictments on the executives. He could have taxed their profits at 100% until TARP was repaid. ”

    Umm, let’s see.

    (1) under what authority?
    (2) for violating what criminal statute?
    (3) under what authority?

    Dangit, there’s that pesky ol’ rule of law again.

  84. 84.

    burnspbesq

    August 11, 2009 at 12:54 am

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    “I’ve long been on record saying Obama made a mistake putting the same people in charge of fixing the problem, who were also involved in causing it, Geightner, and Summers. The whole thing makes me ill, albeit necessary.”

    There are only three talent pools that a president can tap for a SecTreas or a Fed chair: business people, academics, and the Hill. Who would you have preferred? And before you say “Krugman,” remember that he has repeatedly said he’s not interested.

  85. 85.

    burnspbesq

    August 11, 2009 at 12:57 am

    @Jack Canuck:

    A good approximation of Paradise is sitting on the big side porch of the main building at Cradle Mountain Lodge at sunset in January with a Cascade and a good book.

  86. 86.

    Doug

    August 11, 2009 at 1:11 am

    @burnspbesq:

    I made the mistake of thinking he was reasonable and voting for him. Big mistake. I thought he’d be more different from Chambliss than he has turned out to be. He’s clearly capable of smart bipartisanship, as seen in the Ezra Klein interview, but that doesn’t get you reelected here. In another state, maybe he’d be better, but it’s hard to be too right-wing in Georgia.

  87. 87.

    General Winfield Stuck

    August 11, 2009 at 1:15 am

    @burnspbesq:

    I wouldn’t say Krugman, and I’m generally allergic to studying anything that has to do with economics, especially dealing with Wall Street. But it is hard for me to believe there isn’t someone out there not tainted by (and in their cases stood by and said nothing) the skullduggery that brought us to this place.

    It is not only that Geithner and Summers have been insiders, but also that they have shared a deregulation philosophy that allowed this to happen.

    That said, they may well have come to Jesus and are doing a objectively good job. I really don’t know. but early on they seemed to me a tad eager to wipe the asses of the culprits.

  88. 88.

    opium4themasses

    August 11, 2009 at 8:00 am

    In some sense though, there is truth to the idea “It takes a thief”. If only they were interested in actually catching them.

    Eh, just another iteration of socialized safety net for businesses and the freedom to fail for individuals.

  89. 89.

    Napoleon

    August 11, 2009 at 8:55 am

    @General Winfield Stuck:

    The General said: “And as far as starting with single payer, your position is non-sense. It would have given the wingnuts a giant ya ya to club dems with as doing away with private insurance in one fell swoop. It would have rallied the opposition to such a fevered pitch, nothing would have gotten passed. Kinda like 1993.”

    You have this exactly right. As soon as I started reading NR saying Obama should have started with a single payer plan I skipped to the next post because it was obvious that he is living in la-la land. If I am the Republican leader of either chamber and the Dems are trying to push a single payer plan I would instruct my members to vote for it in committee with no amendments and once it hit the floor for a vote I would mercilessly beat the Democrats up with the plan. You wouldn’t even hear a Democrat talk about health care reform for the next 20 years after the slaughter they would take the next time at the polls (and all without getting the plan passed because the votes are not there).

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