Great news from the SPLC:
The 1990s saw the rise and fall of the virulently antigovernment “Patriot” movement, made up of paramilitary militias, tax defiers and so-called “sovereign citizens.” Sparked by a combination of anger at the federal government and the deaths of political dissenters at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas, the movement took off in the middle of the decade and continued to grow even after 168 people were left dead by the 1995 bombing of Oklahoma City’s federal building — an attack, the deadliest ever by domestic U.S. terrorists, carried out by men steeped in the rhetoric and conspiracy theories of the militias. In the years that followed, a truly remarkable number of criminal plots came out of the movement. But by early this century, the Patriots had largely faded, weakened by systematic prosecutions, aversion to growing violence, and a new, highly conservative president.
They’re back. Almost a decade after largely disappearing from public view, right-wing militias, ideologically driven tax defiers and sovereign citizens are appearing in large numbers around the country. “Paper terrorism” — the use of property liens and citizens’ “courts” to harass enemies — is on the rise. And once-popular militia conspiracy theories are making the rounds again, this time accompanied by nativist theories about secret Mexican plans to “reconquer” the American Southwest. One law enforcement agency has found 50 new militia training groups — one of them made up of present and former police officers and soldiers. Authorities around the country are reporting a worrying uptick in Patriot activities and propaganda. “This is the most significant growth we’ve seen in 10 to 12 years,” says one. “All it’s lacking is a spark. I think it’s only a matter of time before you see threats and violence.”
You can download the .pdf here. Yesterday, Chris Matthews had a lunatic carrying a weapon to the health care forum on Hardball, and another guy was arrested for having an unlicensed handgun.
I’m wondering what Monty Python video might be appropriate to downplay this report. It is almost like the DHS predicted this.
Joey Maloney a/k/a The Bard Of Balloon Juice
It’s a shame the Pythons never did Lower-Class Twit Of The Year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSqkdcT25ss
cmorenc
Let me guess before I follow the link to look at the answer:
The opening skit “How Not to be Seen” in the Python Troupe’s “And Now for Something Completely Different”?
August J. Pollak
Yes, imagine my complete surprise at the decline of violent, right-wing anti-government groups during the tenure of a right-wing Republican president and the sudden re-emergence of such upon said right-wing President’s departure from office.
Later: the Pope’s religion.
Demo Woman
How long will it take for Rush and Sean to blame Obama?
CapMidnight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxfzm9dfqBw
Three minutes in.
superluminar
How long will it take for Rush and Sean to blame Obama?
1….2….5! No, I mean 3.
Crashman06
Good. Maybe we can use the Patriot Act on these fools.
MattF
Weird coincidence, the way these violent right-wing groups materialize out of nowhere when a Democrat is president.
Punchy
Can someone explain what this means, in layman’s terms?
Grassyass.
Augustine
Perhaps the Fish-Slapping Dance.
General Winfield Stuck
Was watching a video this morn on MSNBC with some militia nut with his gun and a scarf mask. Wasn’t Al Quaeda though. One of our “sovereign citizens” delivering a Fatwa for Caucasian Power, I suspect. They didn’t give us sound.
This is Good News for Sarah Palin.
Real Amerika — You Betcha’…….. Also
Scott
I’ve been trying to think of something to say about this that doesn’t involve typing the “FUUUUUUCK.” in 250-point type.
Why do they have to bring back the shitty parts of the ’90s?
And why do I suspect that, whenever these fuckers blow up another building, we’ll just let them fade back into the woodwork again instead of actually doing something about them?
cleek
some of them are probably expecting exactly that. and so anyone who does get picked up becomes an instant martyr, and serves as further proof of the group’s righteousness. self-fulfilling prophecies can be pretty handy as perpetual outrage engines.
Face
can cops ethically be associated with militia participation? I realize its not illegal, but you’d think their contract would forbid such mingling in nefarious groups.
opium4themasses
“then as farce…”
joes527
@Punchy: The citizen grand juries that have been declaring Obama a Muslin are more comedy than terrorism.
Calling any and all flavours of asshattery “terrorism” seems to be quite the rage these days. I don’t think it helps anything.
jwb
Does anyone know what the demographics of these groups are? That is, are we dealing more or less with the same folks as the 1990s or have they managed to recruit a lot of younger folks? (I glanced over the report but didn’t see much on demographics.)
wasabi gasp
When some of these patriots earn a stay in the clink, screw pressing license plates, let’s make ’em roll tortillas.
Scott
@Punchy: The Wikipedia article on the Montana Freemen includes a short section on their use of liens and other quasi-legalistic methods to tie up court cases and extort money. Seems a bit too short, though, and I can’t find anything else that really communicates exactly what they were doing…
Joey Maloney a/k/a The Bard Of Balloon Juice
@Punchy:
A common strategy by tax protestors and other militia nuts is to go to their local court and file bogus liens in enormous amounts against the property of cops, judges, and anyone else who annoys them by trying to enforce the law. For reasons I don’t quite get, this is apparently quite easy to do and difficult to sort out.
It’s pure harassment – it clouds the title of the property and ties up the target in court trying to straighten everything out.
The Moar You Know
@Face: Cops in my city can unload a pistol into the car of someone who cuts them off in a Home Depot parking lot, putting a mother and child into the hospital, while off-duty, and not only not be charged, but have half the citizens acclaim them for doing the right thing.
That’s a long-winded way of saying that cops can do anything they want. Is it ethical? Hell no, but ethical behavior is not included in a police officer’s contract.
joes527
@Scott:
Ah… but they never left us.
Halteclere
What is the end game here? Even if no health care bill is passed this anger and resentment won’t go away. I don’t think another OK City bombing will occur, for I’m confident authorities are much more aware of the right-wing extremism threats. But if the economy only gradually picks up (as economists are predicting) then there won’t be anything to diffuse this mess.
Mrs. Polly
Orly Taitz had been trolling gun shows, so despite her madcap, Birther Acres appearance, she’s not all that harmless. In typical Orly fashion, she paid no notice to the availability of neo-Nazi literature at some of the very same gun shows. Hatred of Obama and Them is quite the uniting force. Citizen’s Grand Juries may be clownish oafs, but they’re armed clownish oafs.
The number of calls for removing the Usurper on Orly’s site, from her admirers and herself, ought to be proof enough that they are beyond mere asshattery now.
El Cid
Same sh*t as we saw in the 1990s — these are people who fundamentally believe that if people elect a government they don’t like, then it’s time to violently reverse that difficulty, or at least for most to prepare for such.
To be honest, though, I thought that one of the things that deranged them so much about Clinton was that they were so close to taking absolute power — which they were. Republicans held Congress from 1994 to 2006, and if it hadn’t been for Clinton they felt they would have had the Presidency too.
Then their dreams were fulfilled in 2000 when the Supreme Court protected the nation from those scheming Florida voters and decided to save the country by handing the election to Ronald Reagan II. And then only a pesky ‘independent’ kept them from the Senate.
Then after the 2002 election finally gave them nirvana with the absolute control of all branches of the federal government and most state governments 2002 – 2006.
And now they have not only lost but lost power absolutely.
That’s why I’m thinking this spasmodic eruption of proto-violence and sub-fascist impulses may be more short-lived than the 1990s version, which peaked and subsided with the McVeigh terrorist attack but was nourished in the ‘legitimte’ world with the hunting of Clinton and his impeachment.
The last time, they knew they were just moments from absolute power. This time, there’s no evidence that they’re in any way close to gaining it back.
And I really can’t exaggerate how much of an impact I think it may have if we get a real health care reform passed and it actually, measurably begins to improve the lives of many in the grassroots right — yes, even the rural, Southern and Western conservative right.
And if we begin deciding to do some sort of New New Deal approach to give a damn about employment and national industrial / jobs policy again instead of mainly just trying to stop banks and investors from collapse and palliate job loss, then the fear will really begin to dissipate.
The populist right white didn’t much care for FDR at all, and when he first came in you heard all sorts of cries of soci_alism and communism, and then his policies began to improve peoples’ lives, and then you ended up with both black and white Southerners hanging FDR’s portrait in their homes.
(Though, yes, it was an electoral matter that Southern whites would have voted Democratic — segregationist — anyway and blacks, of course, wouldn’t really be voting there at all. But still.)
cleek
note the wingnuts’ parallel freak-out about Gov’t Prison Camps (!!)
these people know they and their fellow travellers are right up on the edge of legal behavior and are trying to make any arrests seem like part of a giant government conspiracy to imprison/silence any opposition.
joes527
@The Moar You Know: Jesus. You must live in a tough town. What are you going to tell us next? That the cops in your town can enter the house of a little old lady and pepper spray her for raising money for the wrong candidate?
That would be crazy.
JenJen
Not sure if it’s been posted here yet or not, but remember the African-American lady and Caucasian man who were hauled out of Claire McCaskill’s town hall yesterday? The video has been all over the news still today, and yet, without explanation. I’ve been wondering ever since what caused that…
It was because when the woman and her friends walked into the event, she was carrying a poster of Rosa Parks, and the crowd booed her. When she sat down, she rolled the poster up. A reporter approached her, asking what the poster was, and one of the teabaggers grabbed the Rosa Parks poster and crumpled it up. Video and details about the event here at Pam’s excellent site:
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12462/lowlife-teabagger-protestor-tears-up-poster-of-rosa-parks-at-health-care-town-hall
JenJen
Not sure if anyone has posted this in comments yet, but this further illustrates the issue we’re having, nationwide, with constructive conversations about the issues and what-not…
Remember the African-American woman and Caucasian man who were hauled out of Claire McCaskill’s town hall yesterday? The video is all over the news still today, albeit with no explanation. I’ve been wondering ever since what happened…
Turns out the woman and her friends were carrying a poster of Rosa Parks when they entered the hall, and the crowd booed in response. When she took her seat, she rolled the poster up. A reporter approached her, asking what the poster was, and as she began to show it to the reporter, one of the teabaggers came over, grabbed the poster from her hands, and crumpled it up.
Video and details of the event over at Pam’s excellent site:
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12462/lowlife-teabagger-protestor-tears-up-poster-of-rosa-parks-at-health-care-town-hall
Zifnab
@El Cid:
I’m not sure why that would calm them down rather than ramp them up. When you’ve got states falling to single-party politics, it seems like the perennial loser isn’t going to rush out campaigning two years later if he thinks his asshat candidate is just going to lose by double digit margins. He’s going to feel weak and powerless and start clinging harder to his guns and his bible.
That said, I’d love to hear the demographics on these guys. If the 40-something militiamen from the 90s just got twenty years older and fell into the same bad habits, it’s really just a matter of time before their pacemakers give out and they disappear on us. But if there’s some new crop of nut jobs, this could linger much longer.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
A couple of days ago I said I wouldn’t comment any further about being concerned that some crazed individual or small group would rent a Ryder van–again. So I want I won’t comment about some nut renting a Ryder van.
beltane
@El Cid: Even now, the right wing kooks are saying that FDR promoted a eugenics program and was himself a Nazi ([email protected]#*!). So it can be said that Roosevelt was the first Democrat to drive the wingers over the edge of insanity. Lincoln was the first, and last, Republican to have this effect on the loons.
The teabaggers/deathers/birthers are the same people who used to attend America First rallies in the 1930’s, and who urged an alliance with Adolph Hitler, whose positions they supported.
ChrisS
I wonder if I can start a blog, grab some half-assed conspiracy theory and full throatedly bleat it repeatedly. Start making the rounds of local gun shows and AM radio (while asking for donations to my legal fund – to protect me from liberals while I try speaking the truth).
How long would it take for me to make CNN and get a Regenery book deal?
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@General Winfield Stuck:
Shut up. You must be joking. Did he have a homemade sign hanging behind him and a blindfolded mailman kneeling beside him?
Wingnuts imitating Middle Eastern terrorists? Surely Peak Wingnut has arrived?
Zifnab
@The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America: Tanks for that.
I mean thanks. Thanks for that.
BDeevDad
And wingnuts were upset with Matthews for bullying the guy. Serious victimhood syndrome.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
@Zifnab: You’re welcome. No sense in being an alarmist about someone renting a Ryder van.
General Winfield Stuck
Shouldn’t that be Re-Birther Militia Movement.. Just sayin…..?
Brick Oven Bill
Janet has stated in her DHS report that questions regarding Barack’s birth certificate were in part giving rise to the militia movement. The President could mitigate this movement by being transparent and releasing the birth certificate he released to Joe Miller to Orly.
This would be the responsible thing for the transparency President to do. If somebody gets hurt, he will be partially responsible, per the DHS report and his transparency pledge. There is already one dead guard. Americans should be able to be confident that their President is legitimate.
I think there is an excellent chance that these militia groups will give rise to a new version of Islam. One that allows the study of the liberal arts and sciences, and allows the consumption of alcohol.
ChrisS
But if there’s some new crop of nut jobs, this could linger much longer.
Oh there is a new crop. And these kids grew up listening to Rush, Liddy, Oliver North, and Fox News. They were born in the wonderful Reagan years, saw Poppy Bush end communism, saw a scheming backwards hick from Arkansas usurp the presidency (without even winning a majority!!) who was caught lying. Then they saw the rightful return of a Bush to power. He cut taxes! Expanded the military! Restored America to its greatest heights by invading not one, but two countries! He promised to kick dem mooslim sumbitches right to paradise if that’s where they thought they would go.
Then, thanks to ACORN, George Soros, and the vast left wing conspiracy, a black man was elected president (and he isn’t even an American citizen!). He’s going kill gramma, tax you death and create a socialist hell where the federal government is going control every part of your life. And if you don’t believe me, just look at this email I got.
El Cid
@Brick Oven Bill: I suggest you talk to your nutball friends in the new militia movement and inform them that the rest of the nation is really, really sick of their irrational bullshit and will kick their asses soooooo bad and sooooooo hard if they try anything which even sounds like they’re trying to harm Obama.
Richard P
I don’t know if a ‘spark’ is required, tbh. I think we’re going to see a gradual and continual ramping-up of far-right terrorist activity.
We’ve already seen this year that they’re willing to murder people in churches, and I worry how far they’re willing to go.
Phoenix Woman
True. Though remember, these people hate gummint but love Medicare. That’s how heavy the cognitive dissonance weighs upon their minds.
Genine
One of my friends is now a newly minted “sovereign citizen”. I’ve been friends with him for about 3 years butj since January, I’ve barely spoken to him. When I do speak to him he talks about his new “friends” and how he is immersing himself more in “truth”. He then goes into all the conspiracy theories about Obama, taxes and health care. Lately he’s been sending me e-mail forwards which are just nuts. It’s like watching a trainwreck in slow motion.
Btw, he is in his 40’s and has never been part of any militia movements. I think he keeps the more racist stuff to himself when he tells me things because I am black. But he honestly thinks the government is out to kill him.
Oh, the descent into madness. (The bad kind)
Phoenix Woman
@El Cid:
Word. Up.
John S.
BOB-
You and your wingnut brethren are the flip side of the Muslim extremist coin. That you are so blissfully unaware of that fact is the height of irony.
RememberNovember
more home grown terr’ists fapping off to that revolutionary Pariah Thomas Payne ( died broke and disenfranchised in NY) and misquotes from Jefferson, who never picked up a gun in defense of this country and shagged every slave he could get his hands on.
Oh yeah, didn’t McVeigh wear a shirt with that same quote?
I hope in the Franklinian sense that moderation wins the day, and not zealotry.
Kirk Spencer
@Punchy: Others have tried. Let me give it a shot.
In the US it’s fairly easy to begin legal action against someone. There are two assumptions in there – first, that you are doing so in good faith, and second that you aren’t willing to pay money (filing costs) to start an action you know you’re going to lose.
If you’re willing to lose the money, however, both these social restrictions are nullified.
If the legal action is a lawsuit – say, for example, I choose to sue our host claiming his filter against socia!ism is intentional and personally prejudicial – I can do so without an attorney. I just have to make the initial filings and send some letters. At that point John MUST respond, or I can ask for a summary judgment. It’s possible a judge will catch it and throw it out without the respondent’s request, but judges are busy.
The same sort of thing can be done for financial claims (which, if unanswered, hammer the credit rating of the victim – and that is a MESS to fix) with the “prize” being a lien against property. Different court, same principle.
A third method – much subtler and yet in some ways MORE effective – is to sign these people up for various subscriptions and memberships. Donate some money claiming to be them to NAMBLA or Al Qaeda (to give extreme examples); sign them up for a year of Pink, Hustler, Bigguns, and so forth – the uglier the better. A variation – particularly when there’s tactical cause (for example, you think you might wind up in front of a particular judge) is to subscribe them to things that, once “exposed” through discovery, means that justice should recuse for pre-existing bias. (for example, If you’re a white supremicist, a judge who is a dues paying member of Farrakhan’s Nation of Islam needs to recuse or see a pretty effective appeal.)
Paper terrorism – terrorism not through direct violence but through social violence using ‘paper’ as the tool.
lotus
That’s a helluva report, and did you note that, though it’s from the SouthernPLC, not one of the incidents and characters it discusses is Southern? Whaddaya know, we’uns ain’t ackshully cornered the loon market.
Kirk Spencer
@Brick Oven Bill: That echoes interestingly of the gentleman who shot his estranged wife saying it was her fault because she was leaving him. It’s also just as wrong.
Phoenix Woman
@Brick Oven Bill:
Oh, and Bill? Remember how the Great Society (aka New Deal II) came into being? It was after JFK was shot in a haven for John Birch nutters and other fans of right-wing violence. (Dallas was plastered with “WANTED FOR TREASON” posters with JFK’s picture on them, pictures put up by folks who, among other things, hated him for backing the civil rights movement with armed National Guard units: http://www.bartcop.com/playing-with-hate.htm.)
Remember what got Bill Clinton re-elected in 1996? When your militia buddies bombed the Murrah Building and murdered 168 people, including several children in the day care facility there.
Pass it on to the more violently minded of your fellow wingers. A word to the wise, y’know.
Va Highlander
@RememberNovember: And when you’re done tearing down your betters, then what?
There is not a shred of proof that Jefferson “shagged” any slave at any time. There were, however, a lot of folks – presumably like yourself – who were opposed to liberal democracy. These were the source of the rumors that are still repeated today.
Mike P
I mean, it’s obvious that one of these loons is going to take a shot at Obama or some Congressman before people realize how effed up things are, right?
Napoleon
@Va Highlander:
I am not defending BOB (who I consider to be garbage) and do not read his posts, but you do know genetic test show that the living direct decendants of Sally Hemmings shows that they also carry genetic material from a male Jefferson family member.
johnosahon
interesting how they were there when clinton was president, dissappeared when bush came in and have appeared again now that Obama is president.
i think it is just a coincidence
Mike P
@Va Highlander:
You misunderstand. We live in a duly elected democracy, at least we did the last time I looked. Nobody is saying that people don’t have the right to make their voices heard (and please don’t try to twist the Pelosi-Hoyer op-ed to get that conclusion, because that’s not what they said). What people are saying is that causing borderline riots and not allowing your elected representatives to speak isn’t really serving the aims of liberal democracy.
People are mad. People are scared. People have concerns. All of those things are legit, but let’s talk about it. Walking around with a 9 on your hip and carrying a sign saying that we need to refresh the tree of liberty is sending up a smoke signal that means: “I don’t want to talk with you”. There’s no tyranny of the majority going on here (lord knows if the Dems had some spine, they could have steamrolled this thing through already), but it’s disingenuous to say there’s opposition to liberal democracy going on…the congressman are holding public town halls! They’re allowing people to speak their minds! What’s not happening is that these people are not allowing their representatives to speak their minds.
And don’t even get me started on how so much of what they’re worried about started with their party in power, but I guess we’re not allowed to mention that the country was well on it’s way to hell in a hand basket last September anymore.
winguts to iraq
traitors all! hang ’em.
Brick Oven Bill
You sound grumpy El Cid. Calls for transparency need not be met with physical threats. But this is common with left-leaning groups, especially gay ones.
The Nazi street thugs (the SA) were gay socialists. Those grown men who roughed up the Christian women in San Francisco were gay. Those groups which posted the names and addresses of Proposition 8 supporters were also gay. Perhaps this is why Islam takes such a hard line on gays.
Janet did not mention the sexual orientation of the militia movement, but my guess is that they are largely straight. So the odds are that the motivation of these militias is largely to assist local security organizations, in the case of problems.
This is not necessarily bad. It is, in fact, the intent of the Constitution. The Constitutional militia consists of all able-bodied men.
Va Highlander
@Napoleon: Yes, I’m aware of what the tests showed.
How do we get from some descendants of Hemmings also descended from some Jefferson male to “Jefferson…shagged every slave he could get his hands on”? For starters, we’d have to prove that no other Jefferson male could have fathered children on Sally. Are you saying that such is the case?
I stated there was no proof and I stand by that statement.
Sasha
@Brick Oven Bill:
BOB, you of all people should be aware of the dangers of giving in to the irrational demands of extremists.
Americans are already confident that their President is legitimate; it’s Real Americans (TM) who have trouble accepting that fact.
The problem isn’t that militia members believe that Obama is illegitimate, the problem is they believe the entire government system (Federal and state) is illegitimate. A birth certificate isn’t going to suddenly make them recant their dearly and deeply held views.
Third Eye Open
BOB:
Your taste for rhubarb pie makes me question your loyalties. A REAL American would eat apple, and love it with every fiber of his being. I demand you meet me on the steps of the Florida capital building with a copy of your long-form BC. Until then I will continue to report you to Obama’s death-squad website, and petition for you to be turned into soylent-green at the hands of the Guv’mint’s death panels.
Va Highlander
@Mike P: Excuse me, but with whom are you arguing?
rs
Mr. Cole, I enjoy reading your blog and am grateful of (for both your sake and ours) whatever epiphany is responsible for the evolution of your political consciousness. However, for some reason this post in particular made me wonder, what were your opinions on watchdog groups like the SPLC and the militia movement in general back in the 90s when some of the uglier shit was occurring? This isn’t to imply that you endorsed any of the violence like Oklahoma City, but a random search of your archives seems to reflect an admiration for characters who share the worldview of Brick Oven Bill rather than the saner 99% who comment here.
demimondian
@Sasha:
FTFY
Sentient Puddle
@BDeevDad: I came out of watching that interview in awe at how surreal it was. Not surreal in the sense of, say, someone interviewing Sarah Palin because she’s an expert on energy. More like, this is so not the tone of any interview I’ve seen in a long time.
I, on the other hand, consider that to be a good thing. But I’m just sort of in awe and can’t really snark at the wingnuts, even though they deserve it.
Zifnab
@Brick Oven Bill:
One dead guard? DHS report? Let me guess, were the documents never recovered?
I think Sadly, No! did a report on this.
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/10147.html
El Cid
@Brick Oven Bill: I’m not grumpy. I’m clarifying that I do not give the slightest shit as to the motivation of whatever right wing militia group you’re fantasizing about.
I don’t care if their motivation is their paranoia about birth certificates or Ameros or one world government or soci_alist death panels.
I’m speaking the simple truth: if your nutball friends think they’re going to use violence or threats of violence to change the national agenda, then they are going to lose, and the rest of the nation will kick their ever loving asses.
You might think that’s a ‘left wing’ view, but as a left winger, I assure you, it’s not. Any of your idiot militia friends who start trying to cause trouble and violence will be smashed and broken apart not by ‘left wingers’, but by centrists and moderates and law enforcement types who will make them really, really sorry that they listened to idiots like you.
By the way, on a personal note, fuck you and your absolute idiot bullshit about the birth certificates. I think you’re absolute scum and I have no idea why you keep coming back here and annoying sane people, and this includes if you are some asshole who thinks it’s somehow funny to be a ‘spoof’ of a right wing nimrod — in which case, double fuck you.
JenJen
Sorry for the duplicate posts, y’all. Got all kinds of funky Word Press errors earlier and should’ve known to JUST BE PATIENT until board gnomes fixed.
:-(
Trinity
@El Cid: Yes, yes, a thousand times Yes.
gravie
I just made a contribution to the SPLC as an investment in the continuation of democracy in this country. There are some scary-ass people out there and they all seem to own guns.
kay
Well, I think I was wrong. I thought the tea bag people weren’t radical enough for the militia-types, but then I watched the interview with the guy from New Hampshire who uses Ruby Ridge as a rallying cry, and….they’re back.
It’s an odd coupling, scared seniors and this crowd, but militia types snowed some regular right-leaning rural older people back in the day, so maybe not so odd.
CTCB05
Well of course the milita groups are forming. They did the very same thing prior to the American Revolution against tyranny by King George III.
Militias with present/former police officers/soldiers is not surprising. These are the same type of Americans who revolted against King George III. The spark will probably happen again.
There is a new, underground book out (A Time To Stand http://www.booksbyoliver.com) that has a small town mayor realizing that there is no longer any ‘local government’ due to federal mandates. The whole town revolts against tyranny. It’s better than the Turner Diaries. They also had a town hall meeting and started the 2nd American Revolution just like Lexington, Mass in 1775.
Bootlegger
For all the South-haters here, and there are too many of you, note that the Pacific Northwest and Midwest are also centers of this movement.
Just sayin’.
Bootlegger
@CTCB05:
I’ve read the Turner Diaries and its a damned scary book (and poorly written fiction at that). If you’re into that kind of shit you and I need to meet in a dark park some day and settle it.
Bootlegger
@CTCB05:
I’ve read the Turner Diaries and its a damned scary book (and poorly written fiction at that). If you’re into that kind of shit you and I need to meet in a dark park some day and settle it.
demimondian
@Bootlegger: Indeed. In fact, Washington, our joint home state, is a center of this kind of nuttery. We have a bunch of really, really scary people around. And they’re very directly connected with our local “mainstream” conservatives, too.
kay
This better-late-than-never outrage is amusing:
“It does us no good to incite fear in people by saying that there’s these end-of-life provisions, these death panels,” Murkowski, a Republican, said. “Quite honestly, I’m so offended at that terminology because it absolutely isn’t (in the bill). There is no reason to gin up fear in the American public by saying things that are not included in the bill.”
Republican Senators just remembered this:
On May 22nd, Senators Collins and Jay Rockefeller introduced the “Advance Planning and Compassionate Care Act,” according to a press release sent over by a source. The measure provides Medicare funding “for advance care planning so that patients can routinely talk to their physicians about their wishes for end-of-life care,” the release says.
Why do these people have any credibility left.
Brick Oven Bill
El Cid is definitely grumpy.
Calling for transparency is not, in any way, calling for violence. It is the opposite. There was a number posted about the percentage of Americans who have questions regarding the President’s birth certificate. I forget the number, but it represented tens of millions of people.
A responsible President would put these people’s legitimate concerns to rest, calming them. Instead he is either trying to score cheap political points, with the militia side effects documented here by the SPLC, or there is a problem. Either scenario does not speak well for the President’s character.
Freud on projection.
El Cid
@Bootlegger: Well, true in many ways, but it was our Southern militia colleagues who were the conduits for a lot of paramilitary training of Reagan’s Central American death squad allies in the 1980s, so their influence was biggest during that decade than in the 1990s.
Blackwater (now Xe) comes out of the training of death squad allies in the CIA training base of the inlet waters of Hertford, NC.
Sentient Puddle
@kay:
Palin primary challenge confirmed!
El Cid
@Brick Oven Bill: I don’t give a shit how many of you loser nerds call for a mythical ‘transparency’ whereby Obama proves that he’s not black and not a Democrat.
I specifically mentioned any militia types intending to use violence or threats of violence.
That is not ‘transparency’, and since you’re too dumb and too dishonest to notice the difference, go to hell, lunatic freak.
WereBear
There’s a reason the militia units are so homogenous in their demographics and so determined in their goals.
Along with their racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and all around cussedness, there’s a deep core of inadequacy which does not rally their psyche to become more able to handle complications, but instead makes them retreat and demand that the world become more simple.
If we pull away the political fig leaves their masters have put in their stances, we see instead a bunch of serious depressives; flippy moods, obsession with power and control to make up for what in lacking in their own brains, and a despair that the way they were raised (fear hell, embrace hell-raising, and labor brutely and mutely like a cheap mule) have not, contrary to the promises, brought them happiness.
Just as the junkyard dog is not able to turn on the person who beats them, these people follow those in power, both because they fear it, and because they see that table as the only one that is going to drop crumbs on their floor.
If we walk into the junkyard to rescue the dog, and haul the master away in handcuffs; we will still get attacked. The master is the only one who ever fed them.
We are the enemy.
Napoleon
@Va Highlander:
Va Highlander said : “For starters, we’d have to prove that no other Jefferson male could have fathered children on Sally. Are you saying that such is the case?”
Each time Sally Hemming’s became pregnant corresponds with a time Thomas Jefferson was at the house (which was not as much as you would think with the Revolution and having to run the country and everything else that took him away). No other male Jefferson can be shown to have been in the area of the house at all of those times.
All of which has nothing to do with nothing. Thomas was a widower and Sally was his beloved wifes half sister and is said to have looked like her. Its not hard to believe he had a particular interest that was limited just to her.
JenJen
@RememberNovember:
I knew it sounded familiar. Thanks for that, and why the hell didn’t Tweety know that when he was interviewing that nutbar last night?
demimondian
@Va Highlander:
As a matter of fact, yes.
Using PCR methods on the known descendants of Sally Hennings’ children of disputed paternity, human geneticists working in the early 90’s inferred the genomes of those children, and compared them to Jefferson’s and to the living descendants of other males who could have been the children’s fathers. There are several sequences which uniquely belonged to Thomas present in Hennings’ descendants.
He was her children’s father.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Does anyone know what the demographics of these groups are?
I’m guessing they’re white.
Just a stab in the dark guess mind you.
kay
@Sentient Puddle:
Senator Collins is a real profile in courage, huh?
“What provision? Where?”
Cole is right. They’re afraid of their own base.
Hunter Gathers
@Brick Oven Bill: I have Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate. Along with Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction, the Howard Hughes will, the Hitler Diaries, the Emancipation Retraction, the copy of the Constitution with the word ‘suckers’ in it, the set from the fake moon landing, along with a bunch of other shit that never fucking existed.
Napoleon
@demimondian:
Actually the genetics just tell you it was a male Jefferson. Thomas had no sons and his brothers can be eliminated on the lack of opportunity (they were not around). All that aside there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence (not the least of which one of the sons looked exactly like Thomas).
Comrade Darkness
Janet has stated in her DHS report that questions regarding Barack’s birth certificate were in part giving rise to the militia movement.
If it weren’t that issue, it’d be a different one. Any issue would suffice, even a made up one, therefore the specific issue isn’t the true cause but the stance of the militia participants in grabbing hold of anything to feed their persecution complex.
Napoleon
@demimondian:
PS, keep in mind they do not have a genetic sample from Thomas himself, but are using genetic material from other living Jefferson male descendants, specifically from his brothers descendants (since he had no legitimate male descendants).
ksmiami
BOB – just please stop. The electronic Hawaiian birth certificate is real, Obama is a natural-born citizen and, yes he will always be black. I just wish you and your fellow lunatic fringe righties would shut the hell up because u have had years in power to solve real issues affecting Americas socioeconomic stability and your party squandered it on useless military actions, tax cuts for people who don’t need them and pork for creationists in dumfuckistan. Elections do have consequences and your side has given up any pretense of giving a shit about the challenges at hand in exchange for crazy conspiracy theories and vitriolic grandmas raging to get government out of medicare. In other words, we aren’t taking you seriously because you have NOTHING serious to offer. Just go away.
demimondian
@Napoleon: Not in this case.
The analysis used allows you to go back and assert the presence of specific autosomal alleles in common ancestors of the known descendants. The probability that those alleles would be present in one set of descendants of a known father, but present in the large population of others are negligibly small.
Bubblegum Tate
The pithiest explanation I’ve heard thus far: The world is leaving these people behind, and they aren’t taking it very well.
Ash Can
@CTCB05: Interesting link. Thanks.
And hey, stick around. Keep furnishing links — the more, the better — and keep us informed. I think all of us here would like to keep an eye on — er, subscribe to your newsletter.
Mrs. Polly
@Brick Oven Bill: Giving anything to Orly is a mistake, including grocery lists and electronic circulars. She immediately and compulsively uploads it all to her site, uncritically, often seemingly without reading it, so that when she published her instantly rejected filing of poor duped Major Cook (and got him fired for filing for CO status into the bargain), Free Republic had to take down threads all night to scrub the poor man’s personal info off Freeper Orly quotes.
She is assisted by thrice-debarred Charles Lincoln III, another indicator of the fine people you choose to blindly trust in your eagerness to discredit what you can’t accept. And she is being sued by fellow Birfer Phil Berg, a chickenfight for which we are even now readying the Jiffytime.
Apologies to Mr. Cole and regular Balloon Juicers for length, going somewhat OT (Orly is a particular pet of mine), and for my incompetence in linking, block quoting, and general inability to wrestle with previewless html.
Va Highlander
@demimondian: If you intend the tests conducted by Eugene Foster’s team, the results were not conclusive and certainly did not prove what you claim.
If you intend some other study, I should very much like to see a copy. Could you provide a link or at least a reference?
ChrisB
@Kirk Spencer: Respectfully, this is not the most accurate description of strike suits and false lien claims though it conveys the general idea. You are generally correct that the filing of a lawsuit does require the defendant to answer the complaint. If the defendant fails to do so, he or she will lose by default, which is sometimes entered automatically. (Asking for summary judgment is something different, though it will also result in you losing the case if you do not respond.)
There are punishments for filing frivolous lawsuits but usually the violation must be egregious for any punishment to be imposed.
Filing liens against a person’s property can be an easier and a more surrepticious way to harass someone. That person is entitled to notice but he or she might not always receive it. Lack of notice voids the lien but that doesn’t really matter because the lien was meritless in the first place. The victim generally must take some court action to remove the lien. This is a burden in and of itself but also, if the lien is discovered shortly before you want to sell the property, the lien might delay the sale.
There is liability for wrongfully filing a lien, it’s called slander of title where I practice, but pursuing the remedy involves more legal work.
JK
The rebirth of the militia movement is good news for Sarah Palin. This is her base.
Orly Taitz is an unemployed actress from New Jersey who’s simply picking up where Sasha Baron Cohen left off.
mutt
And the notion the citizens of the US are soveriegn is crazy why? Or scary? That makes you a wingnut?
Unique in the world, because the Consitution was written- uniquely!- to restrain government, we are, indeed, soveriegn. Free people should realize that.
That line sorta lept out at me…..after all, if your ARENT soveriegn, you are subject.
Im not a “subject” of the USG.
Napoleon
@demimondian:
My understanding is that the test run was on Y chromosomes of male Hennings descendants that can trace an unbroken male linage back to Sally, and since Thomas had no male children that reproduced they were left with pulling the Jefferson Y chromosome from male Jefferson family descendants that can trace an unbroken male line back to Thomas’ father. Assuming no intervening genetic mutation all such y chromosomes ought to have the same code sequence because none of them would have ever been swapped with a female, and in fact that is what the test concluded. That is how I understood it to be done.
The Main Gauche of Mild Reason
Word to the Wise: Brick Oven Bill is, in fact, a spoof. An incredibly elaborate one at times, but a spoof.
El Cid
@mutt: Right, and as a SOVEREIGN CITIZEN, I support these legal, Constitutional reforms that a lot of nutbags idiotically and arrogantly proclaim as illegal, un-Constitutional, and immoral.
Just because you march around and declare loudly that you are SOVEREIGN and that you OPPOSE TYRANNY and that you and only you are the real heirs to the Founding Fathers, it doesn’t make you correct about a single solitary thing. That depends on your argument.
Va Highlander
@Napoleon:
Yeah, that’s my understanding. Not sure when the tests were done, but the only DNA study of which I’m aware was released in 1998. Since then, there have been multiple entities weighing in on both sides, but nothing is conclusive.
I don’t think I have an ax to grind, here. I do think that, from every paper I’ve read, pro and con, it seems to come down to whether one is willing to give TJ the benefit of the doubt.
ChrisS
Mutt, read this article for background on the legalese of the “sovereign citizen”: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0805.carey.html
ChrisS
That second paragraph in 105 should be blockquoted, too.
jenniebee
@Brick Oven Bill: dude, if you’re really this desperate for attention, go get a hooker or something and give the crazy a rest.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
The more things change, etc……..
Napoleon
@Va Highlander:
The thing is that there is a ton of circumstantial evidence that it was him. In fact so much so I personally think to make the opposite case was the uphill battle, even without the genetic results.
Personally if there would be one thing about him I would consider the worst indictment against his character, other then the fact that he held slaves to been with, would be that the only ones he freed on his death were the Hemmings (who were effectively free at that point and only not formerly freed for a technical reason). That kind of makes you appreciate the fact that Washington may not have been a lofty writer but he acted on his beliefs. As a college American history major I can say that Thomas always was to me the most fascinating founding father who managed to combine some of the best things about the US with the most short sighted and ugly parts of our character.
Jay in Oregon
This song comes to mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKy5tk7QOl0
For people who are not familiar with Moxy Früvous, some other appropriate songs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9_avPkF7JA
http://www.metrolyrics.com/stuck-in-the-90s-lyrics-moxy-fruvous.html
Stuck in the 90’s
http://www.metrolyrics.com/the-ballad-of-cedric-fravous-lyrics-moxy-fruvous.html
The Ballad of Cedric Früvous (written during a public debate of legalizing gambling in Canada)
http://www.metrolyrics.com/big-fish-lyrics-moxy-fruvous.html
Big Fish (written in 1996 about the then-new ultra-rightwing Premier of Ontario)
http://www.lyricsmania.com/lyrics/moxy_fruvous_lyrics_30575/other_lyrics_61053/the_greatest_man_in_america_lyrics_611977.html
The Greatest Man in America (a snarky love ditty to Rush Limbaugh)
Jay in Oregon
My comment at @110 is stuck in moderation limbo. Too many links?
Va Highlander
@Napoleon:
I thought Jefferson’s reluctance to free Hemming’s children was rather easily explained by the one slave – Joe? – he’d freed some years earlier that, from what I remember, essentially drank himself to death.
Napoleon
@Va Highlander:
Well of course we can not get in Jefferson’s head today, and this is something he would never have committed to any journal, but here is what we know. By the time he became President rumours were already everywhere alledging that he had a relationship with Hemmings. At some later time, after the rumours were rampant he allowed the Hemmings to make their own home in Charolettesville. They were free in all but name. So why not just free her? Well Virginia law had what one could call a humanitarian twist on the cruel practice of slavery in that once a slave reached a certain age (I think it may have been 40) you were not permitted to unilaterally free them without petitioning the Virginia State Legislature with an explaination of why you would free that person and how it was they would be able to take care of themselves the remainder of their life. I also think there was a requirement that they leave the state.
If you were Jefferson and those rumours were everywhere, would you want to have to explain why you were doing what you were doing?
Va Highlander
@Napoleon:
Okay, what you’re saying makes sense, but was it not also true that those rumors that were “everywhere”, as you say, all lead back to Jefferson’s political enemies? I mean, I realize that even one’s worst enemy may sometimes speak the truth, but it still should give us pause. I’m tempted to say that it’s inexcusable that a man of Jefferson’s stature did not release the birth certificates of Sally’s children and lay the matter to rest, once and for all. The fact that he has yet to do so leads one to wonder, doesn’t it?
Were there any credible witnesses of the relationship between Hemmings and Jefferson? I don’t know that there were. Off the top of my head, I don’t recall any.
Also, is it not also rumored that Sally was a half-sister of Thomas’s wife? So much of the case against TJ seems to be based on the supposed special treatment of her and her children that Sally’s pedigree does indeed seem to bear examination.
And is it not also true that Jefferson’s brother, or one of his brother’s sons, could have been the father? Have they been ruled out? How far from Montecello did they live? Did they visit and if so when? I think of all the objections that might be raised, this is potentially the most damning.
Makewi
Ha. The SPLC used to be worth something, but they are a sad joke these days. I guess it’s important to have groups like this around to ensure your base is properly scared of the correct bogymen. DHS apologized for their ill considered report, but the SPLC has decided to double down.
Dissent of the correct version of the government will not be tolerated!
Nellcote
New militia demo:
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/splc-report-second-wave-militia-acti
SGEW
@Va Highlander:
Please tell me you’re being satirical. If so, well played!
@Makewi: All trollery aside, you do recognize the substantive difference between legitimate political dissent and organized violence against the state, right? (Hint: One is covered by the First Amendment, the other one is covered by Art. III, Sec. 3).
Va Highlander
@Napoleon:
And for the record, when the Nature article was published, I accepted its conclusion without question. It wasn’t until the past couple of years that I started reading the rebuttals of those conclusions. I’m no longer so sure about the claimed paternity and, to be honest, I see folks piling on without actually adding anything material to that original ’98 argument.
I also realize that this is a really tricky subject. There are many reasons for one to take one side or the other and unfortunately some of those reasons are rooted in neither science nor logic.
Ambergris
See, and that’s why the State Department still gives jobs to Blackwater a.k.a. Xe. Just imagine if some 20.000 trained, equipped and unemployed right-wing mercenaries were in the country now.
Makewi
@SGEW:
Indeed, all trollery aside is there any evidence against organized violence against the state? That report has a lot of fear mongering and anonymous sources – but very little else that would indicate it should be taken seriously.
Makewi
@SGEW:
Something else to consider, this idea of “legitimate political dissent” is fine so long as you consider anything that doesn’t involve violence or illegal tactics to be legitimate.
General Winfield Stuck
@Makewi:
Just shove the bullshit trollery up your arse. Jaysus your schtick is getting old Makeitup. Don’t come here talking about boogey men when wingnuts are telling us about Death Panels and Obama fascism horseshit.
And you can’t mob a meeting for the purpose of shutting it down and call it free speech. What is happening is tantamount to yelling Fire in a crowded theater. Your Free Speech rights end when you prevent others from exercising theirs.
And as far as the DHS report goes, every single day we are reminded they got it right about GOP friendly nutbags becoming more unhinged by the minute toward violence.
Just fuck off already.
lotus
Orly Taitz is an unemployed actress from New Jersey who’s simply picking up where Sasha Baron Cohen left off.
Has anyone ever seen them in the same room at the same time? Noooooo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o . . . . ………
SGEW
@Makewi:
Bear with me here: The 1995 bombing is (and should be) taken very, very seriously by Federal law enforcement. It is believed to have been perpetrated by someone who was part of the “militia movement.” This movement has certain motivations and characteristics. Recent events (the economic downturn, two hot wars, the election of a “liberal,” black president, etc.) seem to aggravate the underlying motivations. And there is evidence (anecdotal, cultural, statistical) that certain characteristics (violent rhetoric, paranoia, conspiracy theories, weapon hoarding, etc.) are on the rise. Therefore, the appropriate authorities (the DHS) compiled a report on this perceived rise.
The question, therefore, is about the extent of the evidence of the perceived return of a dangerous “militia movement,” no? Or about the professionalism, thoroughness, and language of that particular (draft) report. Not on the underlying threat of violent militias who actively conspire to participate in armed insurrection against the duly elected government. Right?
Or is there somewhere further back on the above chain of reasoning that seems false to you?
freelancer
Via TPM,
CNBC was emailing T-baggers looking to cover angry protests to boost their ratings. Inadvertantly inciting violence to cover a “sensational” story.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/email_tea_baggers_hoping_for_riot_at_rep_scotts_to.php?ref=fpa
Reminds me of this sketch from Mr. Show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAzzhsR8YLg
JMG
If they want to be martyrs, fine. Nobody worries if we martyr Al-Qaeda leaders, nor should they.
SGEW
From a historical standpoint, my personal perspective, and from the overwhelming preponderance of American law, “illegal tactics” can indeed be “legitimate political dissent,” depending on the circumstances, but violent protest never, ever is. Period.
If you can’t differentiate between those two, we’re done here.
Napoleon
@Va Highlander:
Jesus, I posted a long response to thie 1/2 hour ago and lost it in wordpress error. Short response, its an interesting historical subject.
Joey Maloney
I love how BOB calls Ms. Napolitano “Janet”, like he’s on a first-name basis with her or something.
Va Highlander
@SGEW:
Yes, I was being satirical, and many thanks.
Va Highlander
@Napoleon:
Short response: It is indeed an interesting historical question.
Thanks so much for the thoughtful exchange.
Lavocat
My perennial favorite is “The Ministry of Silly Walks”.
Or, a man with three buttocks!
Napoleon
@Napoleon:
PS, my distinct impression is that a good chunk of the people making the argument against the theory that some of Sally Hemmings children were with TJ are from people who under no set of circumstances will accept that one of the founding fathers did that. IMO, at this point the opposition is moving into the global warming denialist/OJ is an innocent man category (no offense, that is not aimed at you). At this point to get TJ off the hook you have to kind of ignore a lot of straight forward well accepted facts that really make it look like they had a relationship and play up “triple bank shot” type hypothesis. Being that I am a big believer in Occam’s Razor, I am not persuaded.
thomas
BOB @ 58
they may be straight but I’m certain they’re not getting any.
Napoleon
@Va Highlander:
Indeed – now lets go bash some teabaggers or birthers in another thread.
Makewi
@General Winfield Stuck:
You are free to ignore me. As you are apparently a bit unhinged yourself, and are incapable of discussing anything calmly or without telling me to go fuck myself, you might as well save your typing energy because I won’t be reading your comments anymore.
Va Highlander
@Napoleon:
I respect your position, but the motives of those who question Jefferson’s alleged paternity of Heming’s children is neither here nor there. I appreciate your appeal to simplicity, but until the questions raised by dissenters, however few in number they might be, are addressed and laid to rest, I am unconvinced.
Makewi
@SGEW:
Of course Oklahoma City was horrible, but tying that to some larger militia movement is a step too far. The DHS apologized for the report they released this year, stating that it should never have been released. There is one home grown terrorist nutball on our current FBI most wanted list, and he isn’t associated with any right wing or militia group at all. The SPLC report is a joke, because the SPLC has become a political origination and because the report is a mix of anecdotal stories, anonymous generic statements and guess work.
The one and only area we might find agreement on as an issue of concern is the four fold increase to threats against the president.
As to your other comment to me, you will notice that I pointed out violence is never acceptable. Perhaps you missed that.
Va Highlander
@Napoleon:
I’m with you, there.
And again, thanks for the discussion.
Indylib
@Nellcote: This is a quote from the C&L piece,
” At several eastern San Diego County vigilante camps in mid-May, there were serious discussions about the global banking system being controlled by an ancient secret society called the Illuminati. Another theory floated involved a cult devoted to the Egyptian god of the afterlife, Osiris, operating within the NASA space agency and perhaps arranging with extraterrestrials for a hostile takeover of Earth.”
I am never moving back to San Diego.
mutt
Ah, OK- the term “soveriegn citizen” has been hyjacked by bat shit crazies.
the notion- no, fact- that the individual is sovereign- not a subject or property of the State- is that a bad idea with commentators?
Are we ….secondary to the Government, at any level? Who is sovereign in your eyes? People, or something as irresponsible- as unaccountable, as its become- as Government?
Thats my question.
Ive been an opponent of the authoritarian Right most of my life. All my political life.
And I think as soon as you start thinking people are property of the State, no matter how……benign the State will be when YOU hold the levers, you are an enemy of human liberty.
So, when I see the notion of human soveriegnity sneered at, alarm bells go off. Im not looking to be considered either a pet or food.
Thats what I was getting at. Not clamoring about Obamanist Death Panels, but if they are hiring, do they give medical?
General Winfield Stuck
@Makewi:
Poor baby. did I break your concentration? I told you to fuck off, not go fuck yourself. You can’t even be honest about that. Here is some free advice — posting boilerplate wingnuttery here guarantees someone will call you on it. If not me, then someone else.
And I doubt you read anything other than the list of GOP talking points you come here with.
Marcus
Wow. I am shocked at how willing some people are to believe the SPLC just because Morris Dees is on a fund-raising kick and feels the need to wave his bogeyman stick again. Just as surely as you can count on Rush Limbaugh to crank up the rhetoric when a Democrat is in the White House, you can count on Dees to start issuing ‘reports’ whenever the silent majority wakes up and realizes what is going on.
What everyone is missing is that just about all of these people supposedly on the fringe really just want to be left alone. They have no designs on violence. They have adapted to the overwhelming amount of taxes and other intrusions of the last eight years like the proverbial boiling frog, but are now finding they have nothing left to give. They wanted change, but instead they are getting more of the same at an exponential rate.
So now they are standing up and using the meager remainder of their peaceful means to protest the escalating assault. I am shocked that so many think the peaceful use of the 1st and 2nd Amendments is such a scary thing.
Listen to what the protesters themselves are actually saying and doing and not what the huckster down in Alabama is telling you to think.
someone
Oklahoma was a mossad/cia operation. Any one who hasn’t realized this hasn’t researched it. For crying out loud people, there are video’s on youtube from the original news feeds which talk about live bombs found in the building. The fertilizer bomb was the cover, a la 9/11 and the planes style. Go look up the video on youtube of the raw news feeds! Also 1993 WTC bombing was done by the FBI. There’s recordings of the FBI recruit talking with his handler that can be found online.
Bubblegum Tate
Oh, you foolish LIEbruls! Can’t you see that this is just part of a clearly orchestrated plan to make all opposition to Obama odious?
Bonus irony points: “This way, they won’t have to debate us – we’ll be beneath contempt.”
Uhhhh…right. That’s not your own fault or anything.
El Cid
What a silly statement. The larger militia movement was part and parcel of McVeigh’s communication and inspiration, and so were his experiences in the first Gulf War.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
And the notion the citizens of the US are soveriegn is crazy why? Or scary? That makes you a wingnut?
Unique in the world, because the Consitution was written- uniquely!- to restrain government, we are, indeed, soveriegn. Free people should realize that.
That line sorta lept out at me…..after all, if your ARENT soveriegn, you are subject.
Im not a “subject” of the USG.
If you’re sovereign, then we can declare war on you, shoot you and take your stuff without you running to the cops, right?
General Winfield Stuck
Yes, Baby Jeebus weeps for the harried white man.
Marcus
@General Winfield Stuck
Thanks for trying to cast aspersions and perpetuate stereotypes, but I am more black than our esteemed President and I see our recent political events and the responses by the grassroots as a moment in history that completely transcends race, religion, socio-economic status, and political party.
This is the 4th quarter of Washington and Wall Street vs. Main Street. Mom and Pop realize that the guy carrying the handgun at the protest in Portsmouth speaks more clearly, represents their views more closely, and comes across as generally more sane than their Senators and Representatives do lately.
We are in a surreal ‘let them eat cake’ moment that hearkens well back to 1789. I personally am hoping we avoid the guillotines. Violence would be profoundly destructive and counter-productive. But the reason these town halls have been so raucous is precisely because the solons we have sent to Washington in our stead have forgotten that they are indeed our public servants. They can either start listening to us now or listen later. And girding against the people with an expansion of Bush’s insane domestic police state is exactly the wrong way to go.
So feel free to be as racist as you want. But ask not for whom the Baby Jesus weeps. For I think He’s weeping at your lack of intellect at the moment.
mutt
If you’re sovereign, then we can declare war on you, shoot you and take your stuff…..
Seems to be the way things are, are they not? Zero tolerance, the “war on drugs”, conspiracy charges, and the like. This is precisely what HAPPENS when a person is nothing more than State property.
Or is that your hope- that one day, YOU will call the shots, and do all the above to designated “enemies”.
My many decade alliance with what are now called “progressives” has been an uneasy one. The “free market” authoritarian Right puts me in opposition to it, completely. I saw its product in Viet Nam, I learned something . My “allies” are often de facto simply the enemy of my enemy. Which does NOT make them my friend. As demonstrated, often enough.
Either you dont get my point, or you prefer a de jure society-people as chattel of the State- that has become de facto under both “conservative” and “liberal” politicians & their owners/funders.
my website, some modest offering of bona fides……
http://vvawsandiego.angelfire.com
gaynazis4ever
You weren’t complaining when we had you strapped down with Clause last Tuesday in the Hell Room, mein liebchen…
Watching you drool as the trainer ballgag cut off your mewlings of pain was truly Reich-tastic.
Marcus
@General Winfield Stuck
I’m calling you out, you bitch-ass punk.
Hide behind your keyboard so that we cannot see your pasty white skin as you wrestle in the conflict of feeling guilty because you were born white and feeling superior because you have risen above it and become oh so enlightened and sensitive to the plight of us minorities.
Your vitriol is steeped in class warfare and those of us who have truly homogenized and do all get along are worried that people like you, Jesse Jackson, and Jesse Helms will continue to hold this country back.
So wake up and grow up. There’s no shame in independent thought, punk.