Via <A HREF=http://wonkette.com/410461/>Wonkette</A> :
“I wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.”
Reader Interactions
123Comments
Comments are closed.
demkat620
Okay, my fucking head is exploding watching this moron on Hardball. Larry O is kicking her ass.
Good god, she is stupid.
This country is doomed if this is our future.
Thomas Levenson
Facts are stupid things.
(And yes, I’m commenting rather than blogging because moving is the worst thing one can do in peacetime with one’s clothes on.)
MikeJ
He has to say that or the commies will euthanize him. I bet he was blinking in code, saying “please overcharge me for coverage and drop me before I get to use it.”
Thomas Levenson
Facts are stupid things.
And yes, I’m commenting rather than blogging on this because moving is the most brain sucking thing one can do in peacetime.
General Winfield Stuck
We have the flaming asshole coalition Malikn, et al, going after children and the disabled to make their point, whatever that is.
Next up, street people at free clinics? Orphans?, or immigrant redeux? Soft targets one and all wingnuts.
I truly am beginning to hate these miscreants,
vacuumslayer
@demkat620: That stupid fucking bitch. (Forgive me, fellow feminists, for using that ugly word…I’m so angry…) She doesn’t even know what her own husband makes. She doesn’t even know what socialism is. I thought Lawrence was far too kind. I would have eviscerated her. I wouldn’t have stopped until I made her cry. She disgusts me. She is so emblematic of all these mindlessly angry mobsters at the town halls. GOD! I’m gonna put my fist through some drywall now.
Demo Woman
@demkat620: who?
gnomedad
Hawking just got favors from the Death Panel because he was on Star Trek.
demkat620
@Demo Woman: That Katy Abram that went after Specter yesterday.
O’Donell ripped her apart. He asked her why 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq and everything else didn’t wake her up.
She said wars seem commonplace but this isn’t. You have to see her. Stooopid.
Zifnab
As an exception, I think we can all agree that Stephen Hawking proves the rule.
Is anyone considering the fact that we’re considering Canadian / English style health care coverage (not really, but just for the benefit of argument) and the Canadians / English aren’t pushing their leaders to move towards full private coverage?
Could there be a reason why the last fifty years saw first-world health care coverage become increasingly socialist even as the evil communist dictatorships collapsed?
I can’t help but think America is somewhat to blame. After all, any time some right wing English nationalist or Swedish plutocrat suggests they do away with public health care, I wonder how many natives turn in shock and proclaim, “What? Like those idiots in America?!”
Zifnab
As an exception, I think we can all agree that Stephen Hawking proves the rule. Or something. :-p
Is anyone considering the fact that we’re considering Canadian / English style health care coverage (not really, but just for the benefit of argument) and the Canadians / English aren’t pushing their leaders to move towards full private coverage?
Could there be a reason why the last fifty years saw first-world health care coverage become increasingly socia list even as the evil communist dictatorships collapsed?
I can’t help but think America is somewhat to blame. After all, any time some right wing English nationalist or Swedish plutocrat suggests they do away with public health care, I wonder how many natives turn in shock and proclaim, “What? Like those idiots in America?!”
Demo Woman
My mouth is still open. Just wow! I’ll catch it online later.
Sour Kraut
Who will be the first wingnut to call Stephen Hawking a Stoopid Liberal?
JK
Michael Steele just appeared on Neil Cavuto’s show, where he endorsed Palin’s accusation that Obama will set up “death panels”
h/t http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/steele-palins-talk-of-a-death-panel-is-perfectly-appropriate.php?ref=fpa
Bulworth
Why does this Hawkings guy hate America?
linda
@demkat620:
damn, she was one dumbshit, wasn’t she.
didnt know her family’s income — hubby takes care of the bills.
they’ve got private insurance with $5k deductible, and sonny is about to undergo his 2nd operation of the year;
she’s not too sure about repealing that socialist medicare program now that her parents are a couple of years away from signing up.
lawrence was far too kind while gutting her… lol.
canuckistani
And the Simpsons and Futurama. Also.
demkat620
@JK: So, I’m guessing they think Death Panels polls well.
Bulworth
The death panels would be a real concern if what we were talking about was government providing health care for the aged. I’m glad nothing that socialistic is being proposed. I can imagine teh left coming up with some Orwellian word to describe such a plan, like calling it Medicare or something.
vacuumslayer
So we’re all in agreement that Katy Abrams is breathtakingly stoopid? I’m still in awe. I’m not even sure this woman should be allowed to have an opinion on what kind of toilet paper she has in her home.
Mark S.
@Zifnab:
Those are all good points, which I would add that every other industrialized country covers their entire population for 1/2 to 2/3 what we spend (as a percentage of GDP). And they get better results by almost any metric (infant mortality, life expectancy, etc.).
Leelee for Obama
Yeah, Katy- posted about her in the Rosa Parks thread. Referenced Orwell-and that she’s setting a bad example for my Daughter and Granddaughters. I think I may actually have smarter hammers in a bag somewhere.
JK
OT This is fucking ridiculous
WSJ Reporters Mock Obama For Attention To Detail
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/12/wsj-reporters-mock-obama_n_257313.html
Calouste
@Zifnab:
Every time and then some. Not that it happens very often, because opposing public health insurance is a surefire election loser. Cutting into the benefits though is something you can get away with.
America is the boogieman in Europe in those kind of debates for the labor and social-democratic parties (although to a lesser extent than Europe is the boogieman in America for the Republicans.)
Makewi
Well that settles it then doesn’t it? We know from this quote that everyone in the UK receives the same top shelf care as this average joe, and that because of this any attempt to nationalize health care here will be a rousing success.
Mission Accomplished!
General Winfield Stuck
It was a GOOOPER that brought Hawking into the argument and got punked. Mission Accomplished indeed.
vacuumslayer
OK, I tried to write a post apologizing for using the “b” word on my iPhone but got an error message. Sorry, moderators, for using the b-word. Katy Abram’s off-the-charts stupidity made me temporarily rude.
Makewi
@General Winfield Stuck:
Seriously baby, get some help. This obsession you have isn’t healthy.
gex
@Makewi: I had no idea you loved pie so much!
Cat Lady
Dylan Ratigan interviewed one of the other angry white guys from Specter’s town hall this morning. He honestly seemed to be brain damaged. Ratigan asked him what his objections were to the health plan, and somewhat incoherently one of the first things he mumbled was Obama breaking his oath of office. When pressed, he mentioned that the oath had to be taken twice. It went down hill from there. Seriously, put the loudest ones on TV one by one so we all can get a good long look at the Republican base.
vacuumslayer
@Makewi: No. This is mission accomplished.
General Winfield Stuck
@Makewi:
You are an uppity troll. If you can’t take having bullshit called on your bullshit, maybe your in the wrong place.
Demo Woman
Did anyone see Stephen Hawking receive the Medal of Honor? I connected to the ceremony to late and missed most of the recipients receive their awards.
General Winfield Stuck
@vacuumslayer:
Never apologize to the moderators, they are the virtual face of Evil.
Warren Terra
Given that this all started with a truly absurd statement in an Investor’s Business Daily editorial, which was then widely mocked and as this posts noted even directly refuted by Hawking himself, of course the Investor’s Business Daily had to issue a correction. Because they think everyone who reads them is a moron, of course their correction was also dishonest – as Ezra Klein notes:
Makewi
@gex:
I forgot my decoder ring, want to tell me what that means?
@vacuumslayer
There are, and will be, many, many opportunities for the missions to be accomplished. This isn’t Highlander, there can be more than one.
@General Winfield Stuck
I said I wouldn’t, but you really are too delicious to ignore. What your problem is, is that you really just aren’t smart enough. You try hard, but honestly you just don’t have the chops. The hate in you is strong though, so I guess that’s something.
I really thought it was sweet how you characterized those evil GOPers (Malkiners?) as going after the disabled and children. It’s a really good example of your intelligence level, which is to say, the obvious point at which your brain is willing to cut off a line of inquiry.
Zifnab
@Warren Terra: Thank god they removed the quote, because now it can never be found again.
What’s that you say, Mr. Internets? You have screen shots and google caches? Oh noes! All the whitewash in the world, and I still don’t feel clean!
Seriously, who do these douchebags think they’re fooling?
Zifnab
@Makewi: Pie. It’s a baked good. Usually a flour crust containing fruit and sugar. Traditionally served at desert.
http://images.google.com/images?q=Pie&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
Let me know if you need any additional information.
Warren Terra
@ Makewi, #25
Makewi, I invite you to go read this story sent in to Talking Points Memo, or some of these tweets, and see if you can still feel good about yourself insulting and deriding a system that you obviously know nothing about.
P.S. Sorry if this is a double-post; I got a WordPress error on my first attempt.
Wile E. Quixote
Oh boy! Makewi has decided to stop hanging around at True Forced Loneliness and grace us with his presence. Lucky us.
Mark S.
@Makewi:
Does Graham Frost ring a bell?
Wile E. Quixote
@Warren Terra
Give me a break, Makewi is a useless oxygen thief. A pig-ignorant sack of shit who revels in his ignorance. When he’s not posting his ignorant bullshit here he’s probably at home writing in a diary about how all women are bitches and how he hasn’t been laid in years. Just another one of those George Sodini types who is so pathetically desperate for attention that he has to come to BJ to troll. Sure, he’s an annoying little punk-ass, but as long as he’s here on BJ posting his “Nyah, nyah, nyah” nonsense he isn’t out shooting up any gyms.
Blue Raven
@Wile E. Quixote:
Well, BOB’s shtick was getting a bit old. But gods, better trolls plz.
Makewi
@Zifnab:
Yep. I’m told that in the UK they sometimes make pie out of meats. Meats! I wonder if Hawking likes meat pies.
@Warren Terra
Yes, Warren, your anecdotal evidence totally proves the point much better than any anecdotal evidence I might have that would point to an opposite conclusion. Look, do yourself a favor and save yourself some time. If you are going to point to a “good” example of nationalized health care – choose Taiwan, Germany or even Japan. Those are currently the high water marks. Canada and/or the UK are somewhere near the bottom.
Zifnab
@Makewi: Indeed they do Makewi. Although, to be fair, America is also home to a number of tasty meat pies.
I, myself, enjoy pumpkin pie. Call me a sucker for the traditional pilgrim fair. What kind of pie do you like, Makewi?
IndieTarheel
@General Winfield Stuck: Why’s he doing all that yapping about pie? I mean, pie’s cool and all, but seriously…
General Winfield Stuck
@Makewi:
thanky you Mr. Makewi. Today my anger level has been a tad high, what with Death Panel talk and white women teabaggers tearing up posters of Rosa Parks. But this comment has brought back the funny, unintentional self-parody as it is. You comic genius you.
Makewi
@ Mark S.
It’s a great tactic isn’t it? Use argument shields like kids and disabled people, and then when others make counter arguments, claim about how heartless those mean old people are. Claim how they are attacking the innocent or some such other crap. Of course, it’s bullshit and I’m sorry that you fall for it. It doesn’t mean that I have to.
BTW – The sum total of Malkins argument about the Frosts was that they made enough money to cover the costs of the health care on their own. Not that you will find that out by reading the verbal rending of garments on Crooks and Liars.
Martin
Bullshit. Hawking was born in Alaska and is only alive today because he was cared for by a herd of small government moose that prayed to Jesus every morning.
No long-form, no citizenship.
Makewi
@General Winfield Stuck:
It’s no joke sweets. You seriously are not smart, and you need some help. You live in a world of fantasy, and you literally hate people who have different opinions than you. My one and only hope for you is that you are probably afraid of weapons.
Makewi
@Zifnab:
I’m true blue baby, nothing but mother’s apple for me.
iwantcssfile
Cleek, wherever you are, thanks for the pie filter!
Perry Como
@gnomedad: You sir win one internet.
Calouste
@Makewi:
And do you know what kind of meat they put in meat pies in the UK?
It’s Soylent Green avant la lettre !
Makewi
Oh, is pie a troll filter?
MikeJ
Because really, who has more money and power than grad students in maths?
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
And just to state the obvious, which I know is too obvious for Trollstain: Yes, Hawking was just an “Average Joe” when he contracted ALS. He was about 28, I think, and didn’t have his PhD yet. He would have been dead long before he became a best-selling author and could afford private care like this. All thanks to the NHS. Suck on a thruthsicle for once in your life!
Jay in Oregon
@canuckistani:
And let us not forget the… dubious genius of MC Hawking.
General Winfield Stuck
@Makewi:
Nope, troll dessert.
JGabriel
@General Winfield Stuck:
Beginning? I am a long-time loather, going back to early 80’s, when it was Falwell, Buckley, etc., who were the reigning miscreants.
.
General Winfield Stuck
@JGabriel:
Disgust, contempt, dismissive, are par me with these people. But I try to keep hate out of the game. Though sometimes it can’t be helped, when lines get crossed.
Gwangung
@Calouste:Sweeney Todd, folks.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Makewi:
This is not going to end well. I am, however, making popcorn.
cathaireverywhere
oh- whoops! just posted about the O’Donnell interview on the open thread. Dang- should have read this first- cold have snarked with you all.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Oh btw the Brits are getting pretty pissed off that the wingnuts are trashing the NHS with lies and untruths, cause you know apart from the couple of whining POS’s that the wingnuts managed to find to appear in their ads on teevee, the majority of the populous in the UK thinks that their cuddly NHS is just the bees knees thank you very much and think that the knuckle draggers in the US who oppose a national health plan are well, you know, knuckle dragging fuckholes who are protesting against their own interests and all. Also, almost every American who has had interaction with the NHS say it is pretty much the bees knees. So go ahead wingnuts, keep trashing the 100s of thousands of hard working doctors, nurses, etc., who spend every day caring for their patients without a thought as to how much money they can make, cause you know they actually CARE ABOUT THEIR FUCKING PATIENTS! As opposed to caring about fucking over their patients. And can we please just euthanize these idiots on medicaid who don’t want “socialized medicine” now? I mean really they are too stoopid to live.
General Winfield Stuck
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Nah. Engaging in a flame war with this knucklehead would be too much like clubbing a baby Seal.
ellaesther
I absolutely, positively love that he said this! Thank GOD!
And, in an aside, am I the only person evil enough to say “Thanks, Stephen!” whenever the pay stations at which I pay for parking in the garages in my town thank me for parking there IN THE EXACT SAME COMPUTERIZED VOICE THAT HE USES? Just me? Ok then. Moving on.
r€nato
Has anybody actually seen Stephen Hawking’s birth certificate that proves he was born in the UK?
Makewi
Here’s a truthcicle for you. His father was a doctor, and not just any doctor the head of a division at the National Institute for Medical Research. His mother was a political activist.
Yep, average joe with absolutely no connections at all. Simply a poor grad student.
kommrade reproductive vigor
Look, Hawking has admitted he’s a foreigner. Therefore he can safely be ignored.
Makewi
@Litlebritdifrnt:
You are also not smart enough to engage in this conversation, because no one is trashing the doctors or the nurses. They are trashing the bureaucracy that leads to the crappy rationing to begin with.
You people need argument training wheels.
jenniebee
Link to the Katy Abrams interview mentioned up thread.
I particularly liked the part where she explains that it isn’t right to tax her to insure everybody because the uninsured should get their health care through charitable donations instead.
As a note, the $5,000 deductible she mentions that her family’s insurance has places them well in the category of the “underinsured” off of whom insurance companies make simply scads of money. It’s no wonder she’s angry, it’s only the direction of her anger that is puzzling.
Anne Laurie
If the Pie Filter could use YouTube clips, this’d be my suggestion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCubQ4QaSo
gwangung
@Makewi: Boy, it only took you several days to dig this up. And it’s pretty weak sauce.
Gotta do better, son.
Perry Como
I always hated that “Kiss From A Rose” motherfucker. Thanks to NHS killing Hawking we can now travel back in time and kill the baby Seal.
Makewi
@gwangung:
Nah, I never thought it was a good argument to begin with. I do, however, believe that nationalizing health care is a mistake.
Keith G
@Makewi: From what I understand, the status of the Hawkins family would not make a whole lot of difference in the NHS. If you are in (and not going private) you are in. I bet geography may be more important that status.
But, tell you what: since you are the one making the assertion, back it up sparky. Amaze us.
General Winfield Stuck
Stupid fuck. No one is talking about nationalizing healthcare in America.
gwangung
@Makewi: Evidence trumps belief. The rest of the world snickers at you (though that’s not remarkable. Anybody will snicker at weak sauce).
Makewi
@General Winfield Stuck:
Stupid fuck, yes they are. Only the rubes like you actually believe the “you can keep what you have and it will cost less”.
@gwangung
Yeah, you’re right. Preferential treatment is not something that could have happened.
Makewi
http://www.ehealthserver.com/picis/48-patient-satisfaction-with-healthcare-systems-do-different-funding-models-lead-to-different-results
General Winfield Stuck
@Makewi:
Nationalizing is what England has, where the government owns and runs the whole show. Hospitals, doctors, everything. There is nothing like that suggested for this country. Even single payer would not be nationalizing healthcare, as it would only involve the insurance part.
The only nationalized healthcare we have is the VA. There are no proposals to turn the entire system into a government run enterprise like England, none, nada, zip, and a public option is just that, an option for government insurance, al la Medicare.
It is this info or disinfo from people like you that poisons the debate about what is on the table. Don’t bring it here, we see enough of this crap on our teevees.
Makewi
@General Winfield Stuck:
As I said before, you just aren’t smart enough to understand the issues. The goal is, and always has been a single payer nationalized health care system. All moves being attempted are with bringing that system about.
People know it to, so I don’t really have to sell it. It’s not my fault that you aren’t paying attention.
Oh, and the VA is not the only “nationalized” health care system in the US. Idiot.
Indylib
@General Winfield Stuck: One small point – TriCare for the most part should be considered nationalized. Only people who live too far from a base with a hospital can use independent docs and facilities, and very tiny percent of active duty military and their families live outside of service areas.
And btw Makewi I wouldn’t trade my healthcare that is run by the government for the “best” gold-plated medical policy out there being administered by a greedy insurance company if you put a gun to my head.
General Winfield Stuck
@Makewi:
I give up. Can’t argue with this level of nonsense.
General Winfield Stuck
@Indylib:
I use VA and am generally happy with it. Though it was a nightmare before Clinton made the big reforms into the primary care model and outpatient clinics.
I don’t know much about Tri-Care, but I thought it was somehow integrated with the VA. Point taken though.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Makewi:
True, but irrelevant. The real question you should be asking is “Why do they want to do this?” And the answer is: so that elderly people can be euthanized, ground up and shipped to the socialist UK for use as the base ingredient in meat pies. The proceeds from meat pie sales will then be used to fund a massive ACORN-led operation to forge American birth certificates for Kenyan radicals. And then somehow America becomes an oppressive socialist hell, or something.
It’s all part of a vast left-wing conspiracy, and it’s happening right under our noses!11111
Indylib
@General Winfield Stuck: It’s only integrated on a small level in certain places where they decided it was too expensive to have seperate facilities. The base where my husband works -Naval Station Great Lakes, is currently moving the base medical facility over to the same building as the VA, which is right down the street, but they are only going to share office space and the emergency room. Most TriCare docs are active duty military and all of the technicians, desk help, pharmacists and pharmacy techs are active duty.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
Post fail. I think WordPress should be nationalized so it doesn’t send comments containing the “s” word directly into moderation.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
How stupid does someone have to be not to know the difference between “single-payer” like Canada, and “single-provider” like the UK? Only the latter could remotely be called “nationalized medicine.”
Unfortunatlely, neither one is apparently on the table here, so the troll is doubly idiotic. We already have single-payer “socialized medicine” in this country: unfortunately it’s only available to senior citizens in the form of Medicare. Its 2% overhead (vs. >30% for private health insurance) makes it so efficient that you have deluded morons like Makewi yelling: “Keep the Gummint out of my Medicare!”
I think the best bumper-sticker-type slogan we could have is: “Medicare for Everybody!” Short, simple; even an idiot can understand it. If they’re not as stupid as Makewi, that is.
Makewi
@Indylib:
Is there a script that requires you guys to insert the word ‘greedy’ before every instance of insurance company?
gwangung
@General Winfield Stuck: She’s been telling us that she’s a troll who’s too lazy to bother digging up decent arguments.
Bad on us for training the pet so poorly. John’s doing much better with Lily.
Makewi
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:
Yeah, you’re the one who doesn’t understand that the 2% vs 30% figure is like comparing apples to elephants, but I’m the idiot. Geez.
Andrew
Is anyone considering the fact that we’re considering Canadian / English style health care coverage (not really, but just for the benefit of argument) and the Canadians / English aren’t pushing their leaders to move towards full private coverage?
No one is considering either because neither is true.
General Winfield Stuck
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:
I agree. It would have given a definition to those who are confused with the term public option.
I suspect the dems in congress didn’t want to do it that way for the same reason they fight to keep Social Security just what it is. A citizen paid insurance plan. Adding government subsidies under a “cover everyone banner” and attaching the word Medicare would have given the wingnuts ammo to call it welfare. I don’t agree with this strategy, but maybe that’s their thinking.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
@Makewi:
Take your pick: you’re either an idiot, or you do know better and you’re a fucking, lying shill for GREEDY insurance companies. Which is it?
demimondian
@General Winfield Stuck: But Social Security and Medicare *are* capital-w Welfare. They’re part of the same funding authority as WIC, etc.
Makewi
Yeah, Medicare for everyone and it takes over 1000 pages to say that over and over. You can’t even keep track of your own bullshit anymore.
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
There’s a third option, that you are too stupid to understand what’s going on, and when someone says something that reminds you of this fact you lash out.
General Winfield Stuck
@demimondian:
They are funded by payroll and FICA taxes taken out of paychecks for all workers. WIC? do you mean the Womens, Infants and Children nutrition fund. Otherwise what.
There are no government subsidies involved. There is unfunded liabilities and a ton of IOU’s from these taxes being used by the general fund over many years. But not subsidies. I don’t think.
Makewi
@demimondian:
Social Security and Medicare are welfare? Seriously, where do they get you people. From the land of people who have never looked at a paycheck?
No wonder you’re losing independents on this issue.
Robert Sneddon
@General Winfield Stuck:
There’s a lot of private medical facilities in the UK, not just the NHS. “Harley Street” is short-hand for private doctors and clinics in an area of London, often used by top-level execs and Middle Eastern oil-sheiks but there are lower-end private insurance options such as BUPA which are popular with trade unions among other groups. The private insurance facilities tend not to do the heavy-lifting part of medical procedures such as ICU, long-term medical support and end-of-life care, leaving that up to the NHS.
The key thing is that, as a British citizen under the NHS, I’m covered. Period. I pay taxes (called National Insurance Contributions) when I work and I’m covered. When I’m unemployed (as I am at the moment), I’m covered. When I was a kid, I was covered just the same, no special SCHIP schemes and no shitty paperwork hoops to jump through, copays and all that timewasting bureaucratic crap you Americans seem to positively enjoy wading through in order to make sure nobody ever gets anything they’re not specifically entitled to.
Makewi
http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHI_Medicare_Admin_Final_Publication.pdf
demimondian
@Makewi: Where do they get us? Well, it’s one of the drawbacks of edumacation, schnookums; you get to *learn* things. You might try it.
As to your comment…you might start here.
Makewi
@demimondian:
Double down on that stupid, instead of admitting your error. That’s some mighty good education.
See, those of us who are ok with facts understand that we pay into social security and medicare, which makes them a mandated savings plan and medical safety net respectively, and not as you claim, welfare.
Now, want to dig deeper or just admit you screwed up?
General Winfield Stuck
@Robert Sneddon:
We need to get you on the teevee to explain that even in England private carriers aren’t going away. Something I didn’t know. If the crazies end up destroying my country I may set sail in a rubber raft to Great Britain, or any damn place with mostly sane people.
Indylib
@Makewi: Greedy is as greedy does asshole. These corporations are making fucking record profits by taking the premiums off of healthy people and then dropping them the second they actually become ill with anything more serious than a fucking cold and refusing to cover people with conditions that they know they will require care. In my book that’s greedy. If it’s not to you, well I think that tells us a lot about you and none of it is pretty.
demimondian
@Makewi: Oops! Makewi loses; he didn’t expect the facts to come out. Too bad, puppy.
Go away, grow up. Or, at least, try.
Makewi
@Indylib:
Let’s not kid ourselves. The moment I starting shaking your carefully crafted stories about what you need to believe you started considering me the enemy. You don’t think anyone who disagrees with you is pretty in the least.
In any case, it’ll be much better when the government denies your claims. Or decides that those greedy fucking doctors make too much money. Don’t worry, the list of potential greedy fucks who are ruining it for the rest of us is long enough to keep idiots like you busy chasing your tail for long enough to ensure the “your health for your vote plan”.
Makewi
@demimondian:
Seriously, this is perhaps the stupidest thing I have read here. It doesn’t even make any sense. You got it wrong, you were called on it by not just me, and your answer is some sort of gibberish about oops.
Are you currently wearing a helmet? If not, I would recommend you get one immediately.
Calouste
@Makewi:
Since we are all idiots on this blog can you please explain to us why the 2% and the 30% can’t be compared? In simple words (since we are idiots), but with links for those who want to stretch their brains?
And when you are at it, can you also explain why the US spends about twice as much as a percentage of the GDP on health care as the other countries in the developed world, yet “ranks behind all of them in life expectancy and is in danger of being overtaken by Albania and Cuba? Again, in simple words please, because we are idiots.
Thanks in advance.
Indylib
@Makewi: Don’t spout bullshit you know nothing about. I’m married to a man who disagrees on a lot of political things with me, so no, I don’t automatically think horrible things about anyone who disagrees with me. I think horrible things about ignorant asshats who somehow think what I described is anything less than “greedy”. And you just don’t fucking listen to what people here say to you. I’ve already experienced nationalized healthcare – right here in this country, a system that currently covers 9.2 million people and the care is better than what is available to 99% of Americans. And by the way, I have no problem with people making a buck. I do have a huge fucking problem with people making an obscene number of those bucks by bilking people, people who pay premiums and then are denied the coverage they paid for.
Ash Can
@Makewi: I don’t even know why you’re here arguing on the issue. We’re all wrong for supporting health care reform but you never actually explain why. All of the sources you cite rely on data collected from Americans who already have health care, which isn’t the point of reform at all. You never explain what you do believe should be done about the health care delivery problems in the U.S., or why you believe what you do. And then you get all butthurt when we dismiss you for lack of substance.
Are you trying to persuade us to accept your viewpoint, or even to understand it? If so, you’re a miserable failure at it. You don’t really know or care about this issue at all, do you? You’re just having fun being a troll, aren’t you?
OK, kids, I’m calling spoof on Makewi. Like “bad” Atanarjuat, he/she is articulate and effective when we want to have a good row, but the same insults and diatribe, over and over, gets awfully tedious awfully fast.
What do you say, Makewi? How about mixing up your shtick a little? Get us good and gassed about something else, or find some real support for your viewpoint that can really get us cranked up here. It might be fun.
General Winfield Stuck
@Ash Can:
It has the stench of an assignment.
Robert Sneddon
@General Winfield Stuck:
The British NHS is funded by central Government from tax receipts. National Insurance contributions (NIC) are assessed on income levels and partly paid by employees (11%) and partly by employers (12.8%) but these contributions go into the general Treasury pool and are not ring-fenced to pay for the NHS.
The bullshit stops at that point. Since there are no restrictions on who is eligible for NHS coverage there is no giant bureaucratic apparatus to determine eligibility based on contributions or premiums paid, to decide who pays for what and where bills are sent to, no copays for treatment or billing for individual procedures. Drugs and other items are priced at a fixed fee of £6.85 per individual prescription no matter how many items are listed but a lot of people (children, old folks, unemployed, low income, pregnant women etc.) pay nothing. In Scotland the plan is to eliminate the prescription fee for all completely by 2012.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2009/01/28095040
KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid.
jcricket
I feel like we are in a maze of twisty health care reform debates, all alike.
The facts are pretty simple. Every other country that’s not a shit-hole has manages to cover everyone, spend from 1/3rds to 2/3rds of what we do (as a % of GDP), and achieve as good or better health care outcomes. The “shittiest” system (the NHS) does everything I said despite being insanely underfunded.
Even those highly critical of their own country’s health care system would sooner eat pig vomit than enact an American style system. Those that say otherwise are likely already insanely rich, and can go “outside the system” already.
We have the worst health care system outside of shit-holes like Zimbabwe. It costs more than every other system, covers far less people, has massive unnecessary complexities, induces bankruptcy at a rate greater than pretty much any other negative event.
The only two selling points are: Generates lots of profits for the private insurance and pharmaceuticals industries; Might somewhat increase innovation (although most innovations start from government-funded basic science research).
There is nothing to debate except which features of the other systems we’d like to imitate. There is almost nothing to learn from our system. Even our use of cutting edge medicine doesn’t lead to statistically better health care outcomes. In fact, it’s quite often a symptom of the problematic relationship between fee-for-service medicine and the insurance industry.
So while we might have to convince Americans of the above, these are the facts. We can have an NHS system (0% chance), a Canadian or Taiwanese single-payer system (10% chance) or some kind of public/private hybrid like France & Switzerland (40%) chance. Or we can have the shitty system we have (50% chance) which will keep getting shittier until we’re all in health-care-debtors prisons. Our choice.
General Winfield Stuck
@Robert Sneddon:
Yup. this is Medicare in the US,. 2% admin costs and simple. But of course, this is Stalinism to our wingnuts. So we waste 30% of make work admin costs designed to make more profit for people who actually provide no healthcare service and 40 million uninsured use the ER for primary care which costs another gazzillion wasted bucks. You could call it a scam, and a damned inefficient one.
Kiss. we emphasize the Stupid part brought about by an excess of Simpletons.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
@jcricket:
All this crap about “innovation” is pure snarfgarble, anyway. Real science handed them human tumor necrosis factor on a silver platter, and when the verdammte medicos got their thieving hands on it, they manged to screw it up somehow.
Let’s start worrying about “innovation” when fewer people are dying of easily curable infections or injuries, OK?
Tonal Crow
@JK:
Excellent! Please, oh please, don’t stop now, wingnuts! If doubling down on teh stupid doesn’t work, then triple down!
Tonal Crow
@Warren Terra: IBD’s editorials are utter wingnutrash, and it doesn’t surprise me in the least that their “correction” is just as dishonest as the thing it’s “correcting”. IBD can go GOP themselves.
Gnomestrath
Do I see sparks of genuine humour here. Some of the insults are creative and funny. Please accept my congratulations from a Brit on free medication for life because I have certain chronic condition.
The real problem you have which no one will admit to is your constitution needs updating so that you can actually run your country properly and not have the entire population subjugated to corporate power blocks.
Mike Toreno
Who cares what Stephen Hawking says; he’s crazy as f*ck. See http://www.mchawking.com.
oh really
Hawking is lying — he knows they’ll kill him if he tells the truth.
It’s difficult to decide who is dumber — Makewi for wasting so much time spewing abuse just to be an asshole or all the people who think there is some point in carrying on a “conversation” with an ignorant, malicious adolescent. Or me for reading any of this idiotic exchange.
The whole thread can be condensed to the basic form: I know you are, but what am I?
Jeebus!
In these kinds of exchanges, the troll usually “wins,” because winning is simply making other people mad and getting attention. On the other hand, beating a troll is simple — just ignore it.
I admit I don’t understand the mentality (?) that enjoys insulting other people and calling them names or that thinks anything at all is accomplished by doing so. It is perfectly reasonable to call Wingers like Makewi assholes, his performance here is all the evidence one would need to support the accuracy of the epithet, but after the obvious is recognized, what more is gained by endless repetition?
I think we can all agree the national discourse is profoundly stupid and immature. So, why allow someone like Makewi to drag BJ down to that same level?
If Makewi were an intelligent and mature individual, he would try to enter into reasoned discussions, but he clearly has no interest in that kind of interaction. Like any obnoxious fourteen-year-old his purpose is to provoke. Why feed the troll?
On the other hand, if that is what entertains you, have at it. I can always ignore the whole thing.
Chris Baldwin
A message to the American people from a Brit:
It seems that we, the British nation, have, against our will, been dragged into your political debates. It would appear that powerful interests in the USA, determined to block President Obama’s healthcare reform plans, have decided to lie about our National Health Service in order to frighten you into agreeing with them. Well, as Twisted Sister put it, we’re not gonna take it. The NHS is one of the most trusted and respected institutions in Britain. Most of us are proud that we have created such a successful organisation and thus provided healthcare that is free at the point of demand for all our citizens. Believe you me, the NHS is nothing like the wingnuts say. Nothing like it. We won’t be defamed.