Steve Benen on the debate over health care reform:
But what does this tell us about the political process? I suspect the moral of the story is pretty straightforward: it pays to lie, blatantly and repeatedly, when launching a campaign against a policy initiative. If proponents ignore your bogus claims, they go uncontested, making it easier to persuade uninformed voters. If proponents challenge your bogus claims, the media will say they’ve “lost control of the message.”
Either way, the incentives to tell the truth and talk to Americans like grown-ups are minimal.
I think that’s about right with one proviso: there is a disincentive to continuously lie about everything over a long period of time, as the Republican political disasters of the last four years illustrate. Too much lying creates a mythology that is too complicated for most of the public is unable to understand; in the end, a lot of Republicans attacks fall flat simply because most voters just don’t understand the references to John Galt/Dijon mustard/bear DNA at all.
But other than that, there’s no real downside to lying. The media is not interested in fact-checking and to the extent that they are, they feel obliged to hit both sides equally e.g. “yes, Bush misestimated the size of the federal budge by a trillion dollars, but Al Gore was wrong about the name of the guy he toured the disaster site with, so they’re both equally bad.” Some of this is laziness, some of this is fear of being called liberal.
TR
Great points.
On the other hand, I just had breakfast in a diner with CNBC blaring. They had a panel on to discuss the health care debate, which consisted of (1) former Bush HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson, (2) a former Bush official and current American Enterprise Institute shill, (3) an insurance CEO, (4) one right-wing host and (5) a second right-wing host, and finally, briefly by satellite, (6) Howard Dean.
Even with 5-to-1 odds against him, Dean fucking wiped the floor with these people. Didn’t let them get away with a single lie, and called them on the falsehoods early and often. The AEI shithead — who I’ve seen before, but can’t remember the name — was left sitting there grinning broadly like Cousin Balki as Dean batted away lie after lie.
Good for him going into the lion’s den and taking it to them.
TR
Oh, and someone needs to tell Tommy Thompson that “burnt siena” is not a natural looking hair dye. It looks like he shampooed with shoe polish.
NickM
What has been really shocking to me this time around is the utter depravity of the likes of Sens. Grassley and Isaakson. Grassley obviously knows that there are no “death panels” – what is he accusing his colleagues of? – and I thought he was supposed to be a reasonable conservative. Isaakson has been pushing end-of-life issues for years, and actually repudiated that advocacy rather than try to explain the issue. It is frightening how even the “moderates” have become so willing not just to lie but to accuse the other party of engineering a mass program of euthanasia. At long last, have none of them even a shred of decency?
Frankly, I’m starting to think that they are intimidated – and not just electorally – by the beast the party has created.
mistermix
Part of this is fueled by the shallow cynicism of the stenographer/journalist. They take the joke “How can you tell a politician is lying – he’s moving his mouth” too literally, and use it as an excuse for lazy reporting.
This leads to stories that report “Palin said Obama will have death panels” and “Obama denied the existence of death panels” without any context of what’s actually in the bill because, hell, Obama and Palin are politicians and are lying all the time.
Keith G
“Both sides do it” or “They did it too” are my finalists for our new national motto.
When I confront my conservative friends/family that is what I hear.
beltane
I’d be all in favor of the Democrats doing a lot more shameless, flat-out lying as a means to an end kind of thing. The only problem is that if they did this, the media would miraculously rediscover its duty to fact check.
SadOldVet
“Some of this is laziness, some of this is fear of being called liberal.”
Laziness I can believe is a factor in reporting by the corporate media. Fear of being called a liberal is a factor only in that 30 years of rethugnican propaganda has created a false belief that the corporate media is liberal.
For most of the better known tv talking heads and print media mavens, a better set of explanations is:
– they are part of the inside the beltway mindset
– they have become conditioned to rethugnican control of D.C.
– they have been conditioned to being an echo chamber for conservatives
– they absolutely fear upsetting any of their sources who are overwhelmingly rethugs
– they fear not being invited to the next D.C. cocktail party
Leelee for Obama
“False equivalency” will replace “E Pluribus Unum” any day now.
I wish that Politifact wasn’t run by such an annoying guy. Even when he backs something, there’s the touch of falseness allowed to tinge the sentence. Maybe a lie detector that flashed “Righteous Truth” or “Sheer Bullshit” over their heads would get some traction? Sounds like a wondrous -grand start, no?
JGabriel
Steve Benen:
Is it possible we’re being needlessly cynical here? Obama did win the election after all. And the Senate Dems won a supermajority, if you include Sanders and Lieberman.
Even though the press isn’t calling the reactions of Republicans and the Health Insurance Industry a temper tantrum, I suspect a small majority of the country — say 50-55% — still recognizes it as such.
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El Cid
John Kerry should in no way respond to these scurrilous charges about his Vietnam war record being faked — and no one in the media will give these purple bandaid wearing yahoos the time of day.
Democrats need to focus on a strategy for victory which involves reaching out to Republicans who seek reasonable compromise.
This will work out will and with President Kerry in the White House, we can begin the true process of reform.
robertdsc
I’d be all in favor of the Democrats doing a lot more shameless, flat-out lying as a means to an end kind of thing. The only problem is that if they did this, the media would miraculously rediscover its duty to fact check.
Look no further than the White House. Most of the campaign promises made have been snapped with nary a word. It’s as if he lied the whole fucking time.
gratefulcub
Local news yesterday:
We are going to talk about some of the ‘myths’ of the healthcare debate. Factcheck.org says BOTH SIDES are lying. It has been said:
– kill granny
– cuts to medicare
– death panels
– rationing
But also, when Pres Obama says his plan will be paid for, that’s not true because the bill isn’t fully written yet.
See? Both sides are lying;)
JGabriel
NickM:
No, Grassley is not reasonable. He’s always been very conservative, and never very bright.
What differentiates Grassley from most Republicans and Conservatives is that he’s relatively not corrupt. A rare trait in his party, and an admirable one, but it’s been somehow extended to imply reasonableness, which isn’t the case.
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Leelee for Obama
@gratefulcub: Thanks for reinforcing my point. I’m sick of the BS. Why can’t somebody just tell the f’ing truth and get on to the next issue?
ericvsthem
I hear Sweden is nice this time of year.
Va Highlander
@El Cid:
Yep. That’s how I feel Tuesdays, Thursdays, and alternating weekends.
The rest of the time, I feel like the whole teabagger phenom is just a brilliant way to seize the initiative and trick the liberals into wasting time and effort puttin out brush fires of no real-world consequence.
In my heart of hearts, though, I feel like progressives are screwed, either way.
southpaw
Great post title.
JGabriel
@SadOldVet:
Then we need to make them fear upsetting Democrats. I thought Rahm would be better at that. Maybe if Obama had made him press secretary:
Pool Reporter: Yes, thanks Rahm, Why won’t President Obama show us the doctor signed vault copy of his long form birth certificate?
Rahm (as Press Secretary): What is your fucking problem, asshole? What kind of cocksucker asks a fucking stupid conspiracy theory question like that? Are you all a pack of fucking goddam idiots? Next question.
Yeah, maybe that would work better.
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ChrisS
“Both sides do it”
Yep, whenever I confronted my conservative friend about the horrors of the Bush administration, his response was always, “well, all politicians are bad.” He was on some third party kick. Bush wasn’t a real conservative … I’m not a republican, I’m independent … blah, blah, look what Malkin/Breitbart/Powerline/etc posted today …
Punchy
I get the impression being a Republican operative must be fun. Each morning, they sit at a table and discuss what crazy new thing they can “claim” is in this 1000-page bill. Today it’s probably something about mandatory syphillis injections, on page eleventeen-not-important-dont-bother-looking-it-up. What’s stunning is just how insane-crazy they can make these “claims”; almost as if the crazier they are, the MORE likely they are to be repeated by the media.
Nice incentive, eh?
ericvsthem
Actually, it doesn’t fucking matter what the Republicans say, how the press reports their nonsense, or whether or not the Democrats are pushing back hard enough, or not at all, against the lies.
The Democrats have all the votes they need in both houses and control of the White House, but lack the conviction and courage to do what they were elected to do. They should be wiping the floor with the Republicans, but instead they let themselves be pushed around by a bunch of no-nothing bullies.
Pushing through effective health care reform is a political game changer that would tip the balance of electoral power in the Democratic Party’s favor for a generation. But they are blowing the opportunity because they lack the nerve to be bold.
Sometimes, when I’m feeling particularly cynical, I think that elected Democrats hold the promise of health care reform (among other things) out as a political carrot to motivate their base, and that at least some of them fully intend on breaking their promise so that they can use the carrot again in another election cycle. The GOP certainly does this to the pro-lifers.
JGabriel
No, that was phased that out in 1972.
Still hard to believe that’s not a joke. Fucking evil.
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Napoleon
@TR:
Dean has been a very good spokesperson for reform.
media browski
We obviously need to start telling the public that under the Dem plan everyone gets a free appetizer, and seniors drink free on Wednesdays.
Blue Neponset
I find the best way to discredit the lies is to take them seriously.
A good question for Grassley would be, Senator why aren’t you pursuing impeachment charges against the President? Isn’t he breaking his oath of office by trying to pass legislation aimed at killing our most defenseless citizens?
JGabriel
ericvsthem:
Maybe. If they haven’t passed a strong bill by the end of the year, then I’ll be jumping on that bandwagon and agreeing with you. In the meantime, I’m willing to wait until they get back from recess and see what happens before completely giving up on them.
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slippytoad
I was really looking forward to a chart or family tree of wingnut mythology when I clicked that link. I am so disappointed that it was just a paragraph and contained only two silly references that I am mighty tempted to spend the time coming up with a Wingnut Mythology Research project.
My gaping disappointment has convinced me that such a thing must be brought into existence.
JR
I just started reading Oliver Ellsworth’s defense to the Connecticut Convention of 1788 of the clause authorizing Congress to tax and lay duties.
I’m trying to decide which ten-second snippet of it CNN and Fox would try to use to summarize the entire thing if they were reporting on it now. Then they’d get an anti-Federalist version of Pat Buchanan to come in and give an opposing view focused on nothing but the decontextualized snippet, before declaring the issue is “contentious” and tossing it over to whomever is covering the latest celebrity death.
Dress Left
Actually got this printed in the San Jose Mercury News on 8/12:
Republicans opposed Franklin Delano Roosevelt when he created Social Security. They opposed Harry Truman when he integrated the armed forces. They opposed Lyndon Johnson when he pushed through civil rights legislation and Medicare.
Now they take their marching orders from the insurance companies to protest and shout down debate on reforming our broken health care system.
Congratulations.
You are on the wrong side of fairness, history, and progress yet again.
All in all, I liked them better when they were the silent majority.
JGabriel
@Blue Neponset:
Or coming from the other side, “Senator Grassley, why would you oppose a death panel that could potentially save hundreds of billions of dollars per year? I thought the GOP was all about fiscal responsibility.”
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wilfred
This whole argument is horseshit. Hundreds of thousands of people went out into the streets to protest a war begun on lies and bogus claims and what happened?
If every single one of the teabaggers was locked up and shut up does anyone think it would have any relevance on the bill that comes or does not come? What good did protesting against a criminal war based on lies do?
used to be disgusted
I have to say, the MSM has actually been better on this issue than they used to be. The Fact Checkers I’ve seen haven’t pretended that the lies are equally distributed. They’ve been giving a lot of “pants on fire” to the right, and using words like “scare tactic” and even — occasionally — “lie.”
I’m not sure it’s enough to keep the tactic from working, but I do detect an improvement.
kay
Thousands of people are lining up for health care, and many of them ARE INSURED, at Remote Area Medical sites.
Why is there saturation coverage of rabid conservatives opposing health care reform but zero coverage of thousands of people lining up at 3 in the morning for basic health care?
Give me a break. This is deliberate. Media made a decision to ignore the health care crisis, during the health care ‘debate”, and that does not make sense.
JGabriel
Dress Left:
Silent or not, I far prefer them in the minority.
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JGabriel
Dress Left:
Congratulations on getting the letter published! That’s always a nice feeling.
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cleek
@El Cid: FTW
Blue Neponset
@wilfred: It is all about the press. The war was good for business so they ran with it. The death panel wackos make for good TV and they have an easy to explain narrative.
Perception is reality, and the press are the arbiters of perception.
debit
@JGabriel: Jesus. I feel sick.
mellowjohn
nickm @ #3:
At long last, have none of them even a shred of decency?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
no, seriously. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
wilfred
They used to call that manipulative hypocrisy. Yeah, baby, ‘cold-eyed political realism’ – formely known as say one thing, do another.
jomo
The repubs are gaming the system with their lies. As the press takes a he said/she said attitude and make the story the conflict instead of fact checking, the repubs move the dialogue further and further to the right. In so doing they are effectively moving the center. What it really creates is two groups who effectively cannot coexist. I really thought the Palin thing was a bridge too far – but her craziness seems to be settling into a meme. God help us all.
kay
There is a massive mob of people lining up in a major US city, now, today, for access to health care and some of them have been waiting for two days.
If I turn on the television, I will not see that. I will see that same man screaming at Specter, or that woman who wants the “Constitution restored” being interviewed.
You tell me why one gets saturation coverage and the other is completely ignored.
The huge snaking lines aren’t “compelling” or “interesting”?
They can’t interview those people waiting for care, and sleeping in their cars, rather than the rotating the same four wingnuts over 7 days?
I just think that’s baloney. I think Americans would be interested. It’s certainly relevant to health care. This is deliberate.
Zifnab
@wilfred:
I don’t know if you recall, but even at the GOP’s height between ’02 and ’05, they had slime majorities at best. Then it all collapsed under their feet as their popular support cratered.
If the teabaggers can convince enough of the people enough of the time, they could – in theory – build a GOP resurgence like they did under Clinton. That’s why you can’t just let them lie uncontested. I’d rather have the right wing media continue to bark right wing talking points in the face of left wing opposition than to allow Lou Dobbs to turn his show into a 24-hour birferthon completely uncontested, or get a “Death Panel Watch” segment on FOX with sky high ratings because no one knows any better.
I’d rather see Howard Dean in the lion’s den than out of the limelight. I’d rather see Obama on stage smacking down conspiracy theories and bogus threats, than simply hiding in the White House pushing a bill through a weakening Dem coalition. I’m happy to let my pundits be John Stewart and Keith Olbermann hammering the stupid and mocking the cowardly, because I know they’ll be pushing my agenda.
Cause all this noise CAN move Congress if delegates don’t get sufficient backstop support from folks that really do want health care reform.
JGabriel
@debit:
Yeah. It’s hard to discredit conspiracy theories sometimes with shit like the Tuskegee Experiment in our recent history.
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Trinity
@kay: It makes sense if you wish to well serve your corporate overlords.
Va Highlander
@wilfred:
Yep.
Looking at Obama’s foreign policy, hypocrisy seems to be a recurring theme in this administration.
Out of Iraq? Oh, noes, we mustn’t be irresponsible.
Democracy in the Americas? Of course we support ousted Honduran President Zelaya, but not if that means cutting off aid and support to those who kidnapped the man and through him out of the country. That would be “reckless”.
wilfred
@Zifnab:
The Democratic party controls all three branches of government; the President is popular. Somebody needs to fight for something they believe in. Obama’s ‘aloofness’ isn’t working.
The Democratic party has all the legislative cards necessary to win this fight. And I agree completely about Howard Dean. If this fight is beneath Obama, he needs surrogates.
Sometimes I think he is beginning to get marginalized by the Democratic leadership in the House and Senate, being shown who has the real power.
Va Highlander
@Zifnab:
I honestly wish I had your faith.
curtadams
Obama should attack these “deather” liars for what they’re trying to do. They’re trying to take away people’s ability to choose treatment at the end of life in order to block reform that will make healthcare more affordable. Obama should attack them, publicly, loudly, and directly, for lying, for forcing dying people to suffer, and for raising healthcare costs.
If Obama, and the Democrats, let these kind of heinous lies go by without the direct moral attack they merit (wussy “corrections” and complaining don’t count), they deserve the whooping they’re going to get.
jrg
It seems to me that the Republican lies about health care provide more incentive to pass health care reform.
If it passes, three years from now, think about the falsehoods Obama and the congressional Dems will have on record to use against the GOP.
Plus, people respond to narratives more than numbers. If it passes, there will be a pool of success stories to draw on that pull on the heartstrings. There will be failures, too, but nothing approaching “death panels”, and probably nothing worse than what happens with pre-reform private insurance.
…either the Dems still need to grow balls, or this is another one of BHO’s Judo maneuvers.
JGabriel
@wilfred:
No, last time I checked, the Supreme Court was still dominated by conservative justices appointed by Republican presidents: Scalia, Thomas, Kennedy, Roberts, and Alito.
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gypsy howell
@Zifnab: they had slime majorities
Truer words…..
wilfred
@JGabriel:
Ah, pedantry. I meant the House, Senate and Executive.
cosanostradamus
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In the end, it’s all about comity and kicking ass.
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Zifnab
@wilfred:
Obama’s ‘aloofness’ isn’t happening. He’s the President, but he can still only be in so many places at once. That many is running circuits pushing his agenda. He’s working himself to the bone.
You think Katherine Sebilius just woke up in the morning and decided to back up Specter at the town hall meetings? You think Congressmen are even having these meetings on their own initiative? This is a White House push and it takes a lot of prodding and arm twisting and cajoling and carrot dangling. If you call Obama ‘aloof’ now, I do not think that word means what you think it means.
ironranger
The msm has no interest in talking to Americans like they were grownups. First, msm would have to hire reporters that acted like grownups & knew what they were talking about. Even if they did, it’s obvious that an astonishing number of Americans wouldn’t understand a word.
Lawrence O’Donnell interviewing that clueless woman made me cringe. I felt like I was watching a Jay Leno segment asking people on the street simple questions such as who is the vice president & they simply had no idea. It’s deeply embarrassing that we have such profound ignorance in this country.
If we actually valued public education, taught more history & civics & properly funded it, we could shed our laughingstock status in the rest of the world. Republicans aren’t interested in that. Keeping us ignorant works well for them.
The clueless woman & others like her could choose to learn more (about everything) but they don’t want to. They don’t even know what they don’t know. It floors me that they have no hesitation or trepidation about appearing on national tv with absolutely no self-awareness of being utterly uninformed.
wilfred
@Zifnab:
I was referring to the NYT article which says he presents himself as aloof while working behind the scenes, tirelessly, assiduously and heroically, no doubt. You’re splitting hairs with a fucking jackhammer.
Bottom line – President, Senate and House vs. Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin and Johnny Isaakson.
Sorry, I’m just not capable of taking this seriously. If the Democrats can’t get this done, it means they don’t want to, not because of the press or lies from the bottomless sources of deception.
Besides, I lost interest in health care the minute single payer was removed from the table.
Crashman06
I’m getting so depressed about this. We are going to lose on this issue, aren’t we? I can feel it.
SenyorDave
Another example of either laziness or false equivalency is when an ABC puts on Michelle Malkin, and justify it by saying “well we had Paul Krugman, and he’s a liberal, so we need a conservative.
Gee, I can’t get tickets to see the Lakers vs the Cavaliers, and won’t get to see Kobe vs LeBron, but I’ll be just as happy to see the Podunk High School’s junior high basketball team.
A Nobel prize winner (and one of the smartest people I’ve heard – he seems to know everyting about everything) compaers to a shrill racist.
Zuzu's Petals
Well I’m continuing with my plan to donate to the opposition whenever a high-profile one tells a high-profile whopper, and then tell ’em why I did it.
Just gave $50 to Krause’s campaign and called Grassley’s office and told ’em I did so because the whole “pull the plug on Grandma” business was disgraceful.
Wow, maybe somebody will start an Act Blue page just for “pants on fire” donations.
Brick Oven Bill
The Democrats are the ones who are lying in this case, but they are also on the correct side of this issue. Health care needs to be rationed because there are only so many resources. If you are a businessman, this is what you call a budget.
People who are old might very well be nice people, but if they are not working, and are collecting public benefits, are a net drag on society. This is affordable in times of affluence. Back in the day when people could talk honestly, cigarette companies would make the pitch that getting your country hooked on smokes is beneficial because it results in a younger population.
Barack was correct to note that it makes no sense to perform hip replacement surgery on a terminally ill patient. He should work up the courage to make this case to the American people. Pretending that all people will get all treatment as the system goes broke is a lie. Misrepresenting the legislation is a lie.
If Americans are willing and able to privately finance life extending medical treatment, more power to them. But it is wrong and unsustainable to ask the taxpayer to fund this treatment.
Sly
Few points.
1) Television news has no interest in any sort of high-minded, thorough discourse. It goes against their business model. They want fast, cheap information to relay to their customers in between advertising breaks. TV producers have a word for it: Concision. Of course, dishonest hackery thrives in such an environment, because it requires far less time and effort to toss forth a piece of unmitigated bullshit than it does to offer detailed and accurate information. The antics of the Tea Party hooligans at these events is just the kind of drive-by clusterfuck that TV producers crave.
2) That said, media outlets hate being called to account on any disinformation they help spread or fail to challenge. They exist on the image of being a public institution that helps the average citizen by providing them with necessary and accurate information, when they are anything but. They are a business, and businesses have a profit model. Union Carbide doesn’t mind that they’re responsible for the deaths of thousands, and the permanent illness of over a hundred thousand more, in Bhopal. But they never want the public to know that they don’t mind.
3) Partisans have a bad habit of trusting information, no matter how ludicrous, from fellow partisans. If someone shares the same ideology as I do, political or otherwise, the notion that they arrived at their ideology by the same means that I did has an intuitive feel to it. Of course, I could just be listening to a paid shill, who’s profiting personally from the same belief structure that I have at the expense of others. It’s easier for wingnuts to trust the absurdities of Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin than it is to trust their own Congressman.
In short, turn off TV news. And tell everyone else to do the same. It’s an absolute wasteland. You’ll be better informed and more sane as a result.
Shawn in ShowMe
The Dems have got the advantage in firepower but they’re playing on the road and are getting shafted by by the refs. The commentators spend the entire game nitpicking their mistakes and gushing over the past glories of the “home” team. It’s like watching a Duke Blue Devils broadcast with Dickie V.
Zifnab
@wilfred:
If you replace Sean Hannity, Sarah Palin, and Johnny Isaakson with Humana / Aetna / HCA, a lock-step GOP minority, and the Blue Dog Coalition / Baucus & Conrad Finance floozies, you might be on a better track.
The opposition is ridiculously well funded and have a great deal of skin in the game. This was never going to be easy.
There are a segment of Democrats that DON’T want it done. Conrad doesn’t really want health care reform. Baucus wants to make everyone at his table happy, even if it means making everyone outside the committee room furious. There are a vocal minority of Americans that are misinformed and gun nuts crazy. And then their are the various factions and delegations in the moderate and progressive Dem caucuses arguing about exactly what kind of legislation they even want to pass.
This is not a walk in the park just because we have a nominal majority of votes.
Well, shit. If you’ve decided all is lost, how does it fall on the Democrats to go at this with a fire in their bellies. You think Dennis Kuccinich is thrilled about Public Option over Medicare-for-all? You think Nancy Pelosi LIKES compromising with a bunch of budget buggers in the conservative wing of her party?
We’ve been on the road to universal health care for over sixty years. I’m not sure why you’ve decided it’s now or never, or that you’re ready to give up if we don’t reach health care nirvana tomorrow.
If we get a strong public option, that becomes the seed for a future single payer program. I think that’s worth fighting for.
Zifnab
@Brick Oven Bill: Please stop talking out of both sides of your mouth. You’re drooling all over the carpet.
peach flavored shampoo
@Crashman06: Yes, we are. We lost this the moment the Blue Dogs rebelled, and intensified when the NE Senator expressed his intent to vote against. If the Dems cant rally in favor of ground-breaking legislation that could fundementally change for better the health and prosperity of the nation, then they are sure to lose this and lose a ton of seats in 2010.
bob h
In the case of NPR, this phony “balance” is really inexcusable and inexplicable. The Democratic majorities in the Congress are such that the Republicans can’t really touch them, and the last time the Republicans tried to retaliate the NPR listeners handed them their heads.
Leelee for Obama
@Brick Oven Bill: BOB-I have still not decided what you are precisely, but on this issue, I must know the truth. I am currently my nearly 90 yo Mother’s caregiver. We have spent the last year trying to manage since she fell and broke a bone in her arm. She spent 19 days in a hospital, during which many tests were done, many things were changed and they sent us home because that’s what she wanted. I thought I was taking her home to die. She is still here, but lost in dementia. I know the agony of waiting for the inevitable, not knowing when, afraid and alone, because there is no place I could put her where her last thoughts might be that I abandoned her, and no circle of friends that could come here who wouldn’t scare her to distraction. If you truly feel the way you say then fine. But don’t use this issue to snark if that’s what you’re doing. Some of us don’t need to hear it.
JGabriel
Brick Oven Bill:
It never ceases to amaze me how many conservatives lack the ethical intelligence of a five year old.
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Bob In Pacifica
NIGHT RALLY, Elvis Costello
I would send out for assistance but there’s someone on the signal wire
And the corporation logo is flashing on and off in the sky
They’re putting all your names in the forbidden book
I know what they’re doing but I don’t want to look
You think they’re so dumb, you think they’re so funny
Wait until they’ve got you running to the
Night rally, night rally, night rally
Everybody’s singing with their hand on their heart
About deeds done in the darkest hours
That’s just the sort of catchy little melody
To get you singing in the showers
Oh, I know that I’m ungrateful
I’ve got it lying on a plate
And I’m not buying my share of souvenirs
You can stand to attention
You can pray to your uncle
Only get that chicken out of here
Everyone gets armbands and 3-D glasses
Some are in the back room
And they’re taking those night classes
You think they’re so dumb, you think they’re so funny
Wait until they’ve got you running to the
Night rally, night rally, night rally
wilfred
And you win against this with what, exactly? If you think the current strategy will be successful, fine. I don’t. We will wind up with something that is satisfactory to all the interests you name, which are really only one; that’s not a victory.
Single payer is lost. It was the first concession made. Who negotiates like that? The Administration should have gone to the wall on single payer and made the other side concede something first. They didn’t. And temporary solutions have a habit of becoming permanent.
That’s the danger here.
AkaDad
As a Conservative, I need to congratulate the Dems for allowing a small minority of liars to dominate the health care debate. You guys totally suck at politics and I, for one, appreciate this. Keep up the good work!
Shawn in ShowMe
[blockquote]The Administration should have gone to the wall on single payer and made the other side concede something first. They didn’t. And temporary solutions have a habit of becoming permanent.[/quote]
The history of this country has shown that government bureaucracies become more all-encompassing over time. Why would healthcare be any different?
Zuzu's Petals
@El Cid:
Yeah, I was just thinking of the whole SBVT thing too.
Now that’s an example of laying on the lies so thick and so heavy about a subject the media is too lazy to research, that they effectively go unanswered.
Not to say there weren’t responses, but the liars got free airtime and print space just by the outrageousness of their claims – not a single one of which was proven, and most of which were disproven – and responding involved complicated facts and information. Boring!
Demo Woman
@AkaDad: If you were really a conservative, you’d be thanking corporate media.
Brick Oven Bill
I have a hard time assessing the President’s ability to discern facts, as there are times when it seems that he believes that he is telling the truth. But here are some promises he has made:
1. The government will insure all with pre-existing conditions.
2. If you get sick and have more bills than you can pay, you will not go bankrupt as the government will step in.
3. Full coverage will be extended to all in America including Citizens, legal residents, and illegal aliens.
These things, again speaking in businessman terms, cost something called money. This means the proposed system would cost more money. Some people make the argument that the government would be more efficient than private enterprise. In truth, the government would be less efficient than private enterprise, which would cost again more money.
The system is already broke.
So the answer will have to be rationing. The President should be honest about this.
LeeLee, I feel for you and your mother, she is lucky to have you as a caregiver.
Zuzu's Petals
@JGabriel:
Grand Moff Texan
These things, again speaking in businessman terms, cost something called money.
BOB isn’t a businessman, but he plays one on the internets.
Behold my slippery slope fallacy and despair!
.
Grand Moff Texan
I need to congratulate the Dems for allowing a small minority of liars to dominate the health care debate
… on FOX News.
I know, I was surprised too.
.
Davis X. Machina
The Democratic ‘majority’ is not a majority. It’s a plurality, of about 40 votes. Beyond that, it splits. And if it’s the Blue Dogs today, it won’t always be the Blue Dogs splitting.
This country is backwards from Europe. In Europe you fight the election, then form the coalition. Here you form the coalition, then fight the election.
At any given time we have in the US four or five parties, but only two labels. American politics is coalition politics. And all coalitions can be split. Any coalition large enough to govern will have at least one fault line along which it will split. The bigger the coalition, the more fault lines.
A generation — getting on two generations — ago, you had an informal alliance between the remains of the Southern Democrats and the GOP, over the war in Vietnam and civil rights, that kept a paper Democratic majority from doing all it wanted to, or could have. Even on social issues. Medicare, however successful it is, and popular it is, and even with Johnson’s parliamentary skill and history, and Congressional majorities, is after all the sort of half-a-loaf program that wilfred decries. In the depths of a Depression, and with huge Democratic majorities, Social Security was guaranteed passage in ’36-37 by the expedient of making it whites-only — the only way for it to survive the fault lines in the Democratic coalition of those days
A generation or two before that you had an informal alliance between Bull Moose, goo-goo, reformist Republicans and populist (white, racist) Democrats that kept McKinley Republicans from completely Toryizing the state.
Being able to fracture a ruling coalition won’t produce legislation, but it can stop legislation quite easily.
In six months, Obama won’t be able to do anything, because a righto-leftist Congressional bloc, unable to do anything, will be able to stop everything. You saw the bloc begin to emerge on the supplemental budget vote. You saw it start to emerge on ACES, where Kucinich and DeFazio voted with Boehner. ACES passed by one (1) vote.
Even if some HCR bill is produced, the next big ‘Democratic’ bill after that — immigration? — will not pass at all — thanks to Democrats on the right, and ‘Democrats’ on the left. What’s the downside for a noncooperative member? Obama can’t call for new elections, and if he could, they’re assured of a 95% incumbency return rate whatever happens at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue. Yeah, it’s more fun to be in the majority, but of the 256 Democratic reps, even in a 2010 blowout, 225 of them aren’ t losing their jobs.
The parliamentary power of the Presidency is greatly exaggerated.
Zuzu's Petals
@JGabriel:
Ahem. As I was saying …
I was an undergrad with a woman who was in the middle of a GOP scandal a few years back. Let’s just say her actions did not display a strong sense of ethics.
Anyway, we both took the LSAT at the same time. One of the questions had to do with building a seniors’ home over a former toxic waste site. She argued for it, with the rationale that it would take years for the effects to show up, by which time the seniors would be dead. She was completely serious.
JGabriel
Brick Oven Bill:
Projection is such an ugly trait, BOB.
Britain, Germany, France, all seem to do well without rationing. And yet you say we can’t do that here in the US?
Why do you think we’re so weak that we can’t even put together a health system as good as European countries, BOB? Why do you hate America?
.
Zuzu's Petals
@Shawn in ShowMe:
Uhm, try these instead of these [ ].
Lola
@AkaDad:
The pendulum always swings. I remember when Palin repeated her “bridge to nowhere” lie so many times that liberals were so pissed that nobody was calling her out on it. Then even the complacent media had to finally condemn it.
I think the Tea Party stuff will swing back against the Republicans when the time is right, when the legislation is being drafted and voted upon. I’m not sure why Republicans are using all their media oxygen right now. The media will be sick of them and the teabaggers in a week. The next big story will come along.
Democrats haven’t successfully driven the debate, but that is how the entire 2008 election was. McCain’s campaign kept doing little gimmicks and web ads to drive cable media. It mostly worked and McCain lost badly.
I have become a lot more zen. One thing you can always count on, Republicans treat Americans like they are dumb and they always go too far. This health care debate is going to go on for a few months. No way Republicans can sustain that amount of criticism and that amount of attention and come out smelling like roses.
Zuzu's Petals
Crap. “These” being <
Fern
“The parliamentary power of the Presidency is greatly exaggerated.”
Yes.
Sometimes it amazes me that, under the American legislative system, anything ever gets passed.
JGabriel
@Zuzu’s Petals: Actually, I think Shawn was using a formatting toolbar, and needs to select HTML code instead of BBCode or WikiCode.
.
John S.
Get this through your thick skull, BOB.
We already HAVE rationing as the answer. When the insurance companies deny claims, drop people, exclude coverage based on pre-existing conditions and impose lifetime maximums it is rationing.
But there is a huge difference between how a for-profit insurance company rations care and how a non-profit insurance company rations care. Can you guess what that difference is? I’ll give you a hint: one could give a rat’s ass about a patient that tips the balance sheet into the red.
Concede the point or shut the fuck up you tiresome troll.
WereBear
Actually, if you shift the lens a bit, things are going pretty well.
a) Nobody is getting exactly what they want.
While this is discouraging to those of us who know a variant of Medical for All is the Best Solution, name me a time we ever got Best Solutions once something was finally done?
While I agitated for Single Payer, I knew it wasn’t going to happen; because the chances of our legislative bodies legislating an entire industry out of existence in one fell swoop are zero times infinity.
The Teabaggers have declared (among themselves) that any kind of health care reform is a defeat for them. So they’re not going to be happy, either.
b) The curtain has been pulled back.
Don’t you think that if the Republicans had sensible, reasoned, room-for-disagreement arguments… they would use them?
But they don’t. They have howling mobs packing heat. Great optics, guys! That’s going to pull in the fence-sitters, by gum.
In their extremity, the Republicans have gone all Bull Connors on their opposition. And the media is doing us a favor by focusing on it. Remember how Katie Couric, who probably had orders to make Palin look good, threw some softball questions at her… and got gibberish in response?
The Selling of Palin didn’t work. It worked up the base, but repelled people with a scrap of sense. How many people (admittedly apathetic, uninformed about the issues, looking for a voice of authority) are going to decide the screaming whackjobs on the TV have an actual point?
Polls are reflecting people’s uncertainties with the issue, not the certainties. Which brings me to another point we lose sight of:
c) It’s not theoretical any more.
Face it, when reforming health care was about poor people, it was hard to get voters off their butts. It was easy to believe the lies.
But now, everyone is less than six degrees away from someone who had been screwed over… and it’s Someone Like Them.
Bubblegum Tate
Sometimes this country is so overwhelmingly ‘tarded that I have a hard time taking it seriously. In other words, I really, really hope you’re right, @Lola.
jcricket
This post (and the Steven Benen one too) are right on. Republicans have figured out there’s no downside to their behavior.
This is the important point. For a long time Republicans would lie a bunch, but pull back and do sensible things now and then (even with provisions that sucked). But now the crazies are out in full force & Palin is a “leading light” in the Republican party.
Their lying is so over the top that enough people can see through it, no matter how it’s reported. Note I said “enough” – it’s not everyone. It appears the “soft” right has doubled-down on their opposition to Democrats due to the misinformation campaign. That’s sad, but if 25-35% of the population is “lost” right now so be it. Obama won the election neither by giving in nor trying to be the leftist version of Sarah Palin. Democrats simply need stick to our guns, continually pushing back in the media against the lies, pressing the need for change/reform/etc.
It’s the script for how we’ll win each legislative fight that we come up against.
We can’t out-shout them, we can’t out-lie. But we have to respond, stay on message (or tighten the message) and stay focused on the goal. The American public likes “winners”, and if we can keep pulling out wins, and the Republicans respond by going further into lie-ville, we’ll do alright.
Leelee for Obama
@Lola: I think this about sums it up-it won’t be any great interest in telling the truth, just movin’ on to the next thing. ( Outrage is usually a fast-burn kind of situation-it take work to sustain it and sometimes you burn up your own shit.) That said, I think Ali Velshi has actually been doing well on CNN talking to people on the road, and Josh Levs truth-o-meter is spot on.
[[LeeLee, I feel for you and your mother, she is lucky to have you as a caregiver.]]
Thank you for that, BOB. I think you are wrong on rationing, it doesn’t happen in other civilized countries, so it shouldn’t have to happen here. Giving people choices is supposed to be American 101, so they should get to choose end-of-life information. Doesn’t mean they have to-That is if we really are a civilized country.
slag
@Lola:
I’m trying to remain in that very same frame of mind myself. But I also try to avoid misunderestimating the stupidity of our public discourse. It’s a fine line.
flounder
Dougj,
i thought you’d get a kick out of this:
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08/12/from-our-readers/
jcricket
What I’m not sure of is why Democrats don’t get this. Time and again, if you let Republicans “shoot their wad” (heh), you can then swoop in and control the narrative as you approach the finish line.
It’s sort of tortoise and hare, no?
DBrown
@Brick Oven Bill: Hey brick of brain (aka bob) – you know where these same people end up without any health care? The ER and that costs taxpayers far, far more than if they were treated before their condition became really bad. Obama plan will save money once the system is running. Try learning what really occurs in the real world relative to costs instead of listening to the voices in your closed echo chamber of a mind.
tamiedjr
@JGabriel: That is too funny!
Brick Oven Bill
As I understand the European system, there already is rationing. One week in a coma and that is it for you. I do understand the Central American system, which is pretty much you are on your own. I believe this is similar to the medical system in Africa. In the current American system, I do not believe that anybody is turned away.
For instance, in Obama’s well-organized neighborhood, there are typically a dozen people shot and stabbed each and every night that show up at one hospital alone. All of these people are treated to expensive medical care, and I believe that if they go into a coma for over a week, they stay plugged in.
“We see probably an average of between 10 and 15 people who get shot or stabbed every night.”
Of course there is rationing on the private side John S, you tiresome Believer. The difference is that private rationing decentralizes power. When a powerful government rations, this concentrates power in a dangerous manner, in my opinion. When a powerful government promises you things they cannot deliver in order to obtain this power, this is called lying.
LanceThruster
Some of this is laziness, some of this is fear of being called liberal.
And some (most actually) of it is agenda driven to control the narrative.
The Saff
@slag: No kidding. I watched Lawrence O’Donnell’s “Hardball” interview with that woman in PA. To me, she is representative of a large portion of the American electorate. Ill-informed and OK with it (she really doesn’t know how her family’s income? Um, doesn’t she sign the 1040 when they file their taxes?). I’m just the opposite; I want to know as much as I can so I can make informed decisions, especially when I vote; I just wish I could do a better job of articulating what I believe in and what my views are.
I thought O’Donnell did a good job of trying to gently school her on her ignorance. (And I agree with several Balloon Juice commenters that he should have his own show. Love seeing his name when I watch my DVDs of “The West Wing”!)
Bill Maher has talked repeatedly about how stupid Americans are. I think this woman was exhibit #1 in his theory about American ignorance.
PeakVT
As I understand the European system
There is no “European system”, dipshit. Each European country runs its own health care system, and they are quite different from each other.
Litlebritdifrnt
Not sure if this has been posted but the Brits are fighting back with reference to the out and out lies about the NHS.
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23WeLoveTheNHS
John Hamilton Farr
The hell there isn’t!
I know you meant that as a socio-political observation, and in that respect you’re right. What it really represents is spiritual corruption, of course. That we have made this a feature of our society is staggeringly depressing. A culture of psychic death, basically, which tends to explain, well, just about everything.
Ed Drone
(From a song I wrote):
On our TV every day, the politicians say,
“Vote for me! I know what’s best for you!”
Now, it wouldn’t be that much a strain
To use that thing we call a brain,
And separate the phony from the true.
Chorus:
But we don’t do it — we just let ’em call the shots.
We don’t do it — do we think? I think not!
We just sleep through it, and that makes us all so small,
But if we’re too blind to use our minds,
Are we any good at all?
Tag: If we don’t start to use our smarts, are we any good at all?
(c) 2000, Ed Drone, Bob Clayton & Charles Wolff
kay
“There is some fear because in the House bill, there is counseling for end-of-life,” Grassley said. “And from that standpoint, you have every right to fear. You shouldn’t have counseling at the end of life. You ought to have counseling 20 years before you’re going to die. You ought to plan these things out.”
I give up. I swear. This moron is a Senator. The reason they’re can’t have counseling 20 years before they’re going to die, moron, is because they did not DO that already, and they’re old.
He wants to go back in time. I mean, this is the leadership brain trust on the Right.
ironranger
@kay:
When people say they want their country back, I always wonder what country they are talking about & what it exactly looks like. Is it a country of their imagination? For older people, is it the country in the 1940’s or 1950’s? For younger people, what era of the US are they so nostalgic for? Or is it the America that existed long before any of them were even born? I don’t think a lot of them know themselves, gotta be some country they imagine America should be.
Zifnab
@Brick Oven Bill:
Let me introduce you to a little Texas law called The Advance Directives Act (also known as the Texas Futile Care Law).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_Directives_Act
Here that, BoB? We don’t even get the full one month down here in Texas. Ten days, and if you can’t foot the bill (or the hospital doesn’t feel like it wants to take your money) they kick you to the curb.
Explain to me how your unlinked magic “one month” beats my hard, legally referenced 10 days. God bless America, amirite?
asiangrrlMN
Truth is so passe. Truthiness is where it’s at. If I feel it or think it, it must be true.
I can feel sorry for the truly stupid because they are stupid. I can’t feel sorry for the ignorant because they can educate themselves–they just choose not to. As for Grassley and his ilk, I feel nothing but cold contempt for them.
I am thinking of taking a politics hiatus. Let me know when the recess is over.
liberal
@JGabriel:
Britain, for one, has rationing, as it should. Why shouldn’t it?
Suppose that there’s a treatment that prolongs life for someone with a terminal disease for a few months, and it costs $100K/mo. Do you pay for it? I don’t think we should.
The Saff
@ironranger: I was waiting for Lawrence O’Donnell to ask Katy Abrams if she wanted Congress to repeal the 13th or the 19th Amendments. I mean, original intent and all that.
asiangrrlMN
@ironranger: Their country is where they didn’t have to think about any of the issues dominating the country right now. Their country is a place where they could look around and be comforted by the fact that the faces looking back at them reflected themselves (physically and mentally). Their country approved of torturing, eavesdropping on its citizens, discriminating against LBGT folk, and a more dominant police presence. Their country allowed them to be as prejudiced as they wanted to be without fear of repercussions. They can have their country. I don’t want it.
Sly
You understand wrong. Majestically wrong.
First, there is no “European system.” Europe is a continent, not a country. It does not have a single program for everyone, from the Scottish to the Greek. Each country has their own system, and these systems vary. The same is true for Africa, Central and South America, Asia, and every other place on this planet where there are (a) people and (b) countries.
Some have a completely nationalized system, like Britain, where medical professionals are employed by the government. Some have national insurance exchanges to more broadly distribute insurance risks. Some have public programs funded through payroll taxes and a secondary insurance market. All deal with anti-selection (rationing) problems better than we do. The countries that have private insurance have more competitive insurance markets than we do. You know why? Because they are forced to abide by anti-trust laws.
Second, no one is euthanized after being in a coma for a week. Anywhere. I challenge you to provide an example system where this practice occurs regularly.
Thirdly, people not being turned away presents a problem for the people who can afford care, because the cost of treating the indigent is passed on to others. Go to your local hospital and ask how much it costs them every time a person without coverage is admitted to their emergency room. They add those costs to the people who are insured, and as a result the insured see their own costs rise through higher premiums.
There are three solutions to this. The first, is that you require hospitals to shut people out who can’t pay their own way. This will likely result in many people dying. No one, aside from the more deranged among the libertarian crowd, supports this.
Or, you can get them in the same risk pool as everyone else and give them subsidies to buy insurance. Antiselection is dispersed through a competitive non-profit program or through robust regulation. This is the current HCR paradigm.
Or, you can establish a national insurance program, funded through taxes, and force everyone into it. Glenn Beck and other airheads are whining about this.
If you think medical insurance is a decentralized business, or is the insurance model incentivizes such, you don’t know much about insurance generally and health insurance specifically. It breeds monopoly/monopsony behavior like mosquitos in a swamp. There isn’t a single market in the United States where more than three insurance companies have less than a 50% market share. Anywhere. Not even in Godless Commie NYC that has tougher business regulations than most areas of the country (and a larger, thriving business community).
You know what that does to the insured? They have a limited number of competitors to turn to when their insurer tries to screw them over. If I live in Texarcana, where BCBS insured 97% of the people in the area, who the Hell am I going to go to when they deny my chemotherapy claim? Jonesboro, where BCBS has only a 90% market share? Or do I petition to remove state competition limits, so BCBS of Arkansas can compete with BCBS of Alabama?
Angela
Of course there is a downside to lying.
You reap what you sow.
of if you prefer
Karma is a bitch.
In the long run, lying bites you in the butt. Look how many of us have left the dark side in the last 8 years.
For me, it was all about the lying.
kay
@ironranger:
I think conservatives are simply too stupid to grasp the concept of a living will. It’s too complicated. Sarah Palin’s had three tries now and she’s still wrong. Even Kathleen Parker doesn’t get it, not at all, and she’s supposed to be the smart conservative woman. She missed the essential element, which is “informed consent”. That’s the whole thing. You can’t talk about living wills if you can’t grasp the concept.
I don’t know what you do about that, but I suspect there’s no cure for that kind of stupid.
AkaDad
I just got back from one. It keeps me sane, or at least that’s what the voices in my head tell me.
liberal
Peter Singer addressed the issue of rationing in an interesting essay.
Zifnab
@Brick Oven Bill:
Let me introduce you to a little Texas law called The Advance Directives Act (also known as the Texas Futile Care Law).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A…..ctives_Act
Specifically:
If after 10 days, no such provider can be found, the hospital and physician may unilaterally withhold or withdraw the therapy that has been determined to be futile.
Your hospital can have you killed after ten days. This bill was signed into law by then-governor George W Bush. So don’t give me the “Oh but in the UK they kill you!” crap. If there was half as much public hand wringing and tear jerking across the pond against their own policies as there is here in opposition to an optional public health insurance program they’d have amended the law by now.
Which makes me think either a) The English are happy to let their old people die or b) you’re full of shit.
Shawn in ShowMe
You mean The Andy Griffith show, Leave it to Beaver and Frank Capra films were not documentaries?
Zifnab
@liberal: Well, gee liberal. That’s swell of you to put forward your expert medical opinion.
But if I were in England and I had a few months to live at the cost of $100k / month, I’d want either my family or my doctors to make that call rather than random internet hooligans.
Of course, it’s no issue in the states. Either you cough up the $100k / month yourself, or you die, cause your insurance sure as fuck isn’t going to cover it.
John S.
You really are a hopeless wingnut.
What you call “decentralized power” sane people call letting private companies fuck people over blind without any oversight or repurcussions.
But don’t let your irrational fear of the scary evil government stop you from turning a blind eye towards the actual evils already being done by corporations who you hold so dear.
El Cruzado
@Brick Oven Bill:
As a Spanish expatriate with a reasonably extended experience living under commie Healthcare (lived there 29 years plus all my family still struggles under its evil yoke) the only thing I can say is that your post was a complete waste of bytes.
sunsin
These things, again speaking in businessman terms, cost something called money. This means the proposed system would cost more money. Some people make the argument that the government would be more efficient than private enterprise. In truth, the government would be less efficient than private enterprise, which would cost again more money.
The combination of public funding and private enterprise (doctors are in effect small businessmen) in Canada produces nearly identical outcomes to the United States for all Canadian citizens at a per capita cost of about half what the United States pays to cover most of its citizens. That means that if you put in a Canadian-style system, you would have cost savings of about 50%, not increased costs.
Brick Brains Bill obviously thinks that Americans are too stupid to do what the rest of the developed world has already done. With patriots like that, you don’t need traitors.
And for those who are semi-suicidal because they aren’t getting single payer right away, remember that most government health care plans started small. The Canadian plan began in a single province with an agreement to limit hospital charges to a dollar a day — quite a bit of money in those days long ago.
Pangloss
Somewhere between the elimination of the fairness doctrine, FCC deregulation allowing enormous media consolidation, the decline of journalism and the sainthood of Ronald Reagan the country has become functionally ungovernable.
I blame Gerald Ford’s pardon of Nixon.
Leelee for Obama
@Pangloss: This, on a flag, a poster, anything. Too true.
kay
@Pangloss:
Sarah Palin, who was the governor of a US state, doesn’t know the difference between the word “authorized” and the word “mandated”.
She’s still struggling with it, three days out, and she’s been working on that single concept full-time, since she quit her job.
There’s a Republican Senator running around who doesn’t know what that word means, and several GOP House members.
ironranger
I’m sure people who say they want “their” country back all have their own personal vision what that country should be. Even if a majority who had the same dream of the ideal country got their wish, the rest would fight tooth & nail to overturn it. The majority would start fracturing because they got their country & it wasn’t what they thought it would be. I picture one gigantic fracas among the lot of them.
freelancer
@DougJ
How hard would it be to create like an open-source wiki compendium of wingnut mythology?
Granite Countertops, Country First, Politically Correct, Elitist, etc.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@freelancer:
Already been done.
freelancer
@tripletee (formerly tBone):
I had thought of Conservapedia, however, compiling a primer would be a goal, something with more brevity, almost like a Snopes’ Guide to Greater Wingnuttia.
Tonal Crow
@ericvsthem:
Sweden?!? That Sovietsky Death-Panel-loving libertine God-denying family-hating homosexual-promoting Volvo-making GULAG?!?!
/wingnutsky
J. A. Baker
Good points. I would just add one thing. In our current media environment, this
only applies if proponents have a “D” after their names.
R-Jud
@Brick Oven Bill:
Setting aside the fact that rationing already happens in the private system, I’d like to point out that my husband’s grandmother, who died two years ago, was in a coma for nearly six months and was treated very kindly by her NHS nurses and doctors.
It is far easier for me to get an appointment on the NHS than it was with my supposedly gold-plated private coverage in the US. The only exception to this is physical therapy for sports injuries. For that, I’ve got a private insurance package that costs about $45 USD a month.
But you know what’s really nice? Not living in fear of going bankrupt from an illness or accident. It has happened to three people I know, former classmates. All of them are under thirty-five, hardworking blue-collar folks, and all of them were insured at the time of crisis. In one case, the stress from the accident and bankruptcy lead to the breakup of an otherwise solid marriage.
The healthcare system in the USA is expensive, insufficient– and it ruins whole families. I will take the NHS, its very real shortcomings, and its rationing over that any day.
DBrown
@R-Jud: This only proves that commie’s won the cold war in England … Amerika, the place that hates the poor, dark skin and any non-hate filled christian has the best health care system only money can buy.
Paul
It’s funny we hear Republicans say that they do not want “faceless bureaucrats” making medical decisions but they have no problem with “private sector” “faceless bureaucrats” daily declining medical coverage and financially ruining good hard working people (honestly where can they go with a pre-condition). And who says that the “private sector” is always right, do we forget failures like Long-Term Capital, WorldCom, Global Crossing, Enron, Tyco, AIG and Lehman Brothers. Of course the federal government will destroy heathcare by getting involved, Oh but wait, Medicare and Medicaid and our military men and women and the Senate and Congress get the best heathcare in the world, and oh, that’s right, its run by our federal government. I can understand why some may think that the federal government will fail, if you look at the past eight years as a current history, with failures like the financial meltdown and Katrina but the facts is they can and if we support them they will succeed.
How does shouting down to stop the conversation of the healthcare debate at town hall meetings, endears them to anyone. Especially when the organizations that are telling them where to go and what to do and say are Republicans political operatives, not real grassroots. How does shouting someone down or chasing them out like a “lynch mob” advanced the debate, it does not. So I think the American people will see through all of this and know, like the teabagger, the birthers, these lynch mobs types AKA “screamers” are just the same, people who have to resort to these tactics because they have no leadership to articulate what they real want. It’s easy to pickup a bus load of people who hate, and that’s all I been seeing, they hate and can’t debate. Too bad.
mcc
It’s starting to seem like this is mostly a matter of lying strategy. The Republicans are currently addressing this by retreating to simpler, more basic lies. People may not be able to follow who ACORN and Marc Rich are, but everyone understands nazi death panels.
Calouste
@Brick Oven Bill:
So you are against rationing medical care? So do you live in a 300 sq ft appartment and spend your money on the fanciest health insurance you can find plus save all the rest in case your insurance does cover it or runs out? Because medical care doesn’t come free you know, it has to be paid for somehow. We can probably make it practically unrationed if we all pay 95% of our income towards medical costs, although that would probably mean that 95% of us will work in the medical profession, because that is the only place where there would be jobs.
Maybe you should stop thinking that there is some perpetuum mobile that generates hospital beds or that doctors and nurses grow on trees.
LongHairedWeirdo
There’s more to it than that. There’s also the question about memory.
Look: multiple people have made up a blatant, hateful lie out of whole cloth: death panels. Whether they’re too fucking stupid to check their facts, or such hateful liars that they’ll speak such vileness intentionally, they should never be listened to again.
Okay?
Sarah Palin should not be able to say “Republicans want to cut taxes on the wealthy!” and be believed any more. She should have used up every last ounce of her credibility for the sake of a hateful like (or indescribably blatant stupidity), and now she shouldn’t have any more. But people will act as if she’s a sane, reasonable human being again.
That’s where there’s no cost in lying.
There can be costs to lying… “thanks but no thanks” probably damaged her. But she’s listened to again, reported on again, etc..
Tax Analyst
kay said:
“There is a massive mob of people lining up in a major US city, now, today, for access to health care and some of them have been waiting for two days.
If I turn on the television, I will not see that. I will see that same man screaming at Specter, or that woman who wants the “Constitution restored” being interviewed.
You tell me why one gets saturation coverage and the other is completely ignored.
The huge snaking lines aren’t “compelling” or “interesting”?
They can’t interview those people waiting for care, and sleeping in their cars, rather than the rotating the same four wingnuts over 7 days?
I just think that’s baloney. I think Americans would be interested. It’s certainly relevant to health care. This is deliberate.”
The L.A. Times had a front page article on the Health Fair (or whatever they are calling it) here in L.A., but I don’t recall the writer making any effort to tie it to the Health Care Debate, although some of the folks attending the Fair did. The Times did manage to publish an editorial today that DID mention the issues together as a point. I’d have to count that as progress, but I found the rest of the editorial fairly meek in what they actually supported for Health Care Reform. It also harkened me back to a front page article about “Health Care Lies/Misrepresentations” that only slightly veered from the ridiculous “he said-she said” equivalency BS.
My guess is that an organization like the L.A. Times is still mostly in the back pocket of the reactionary corporation-types, but they felt the need to at least recognize the obvious in Editorial-Land in an attempt to retain a smidgeon of credibility.
That, and it appears Jonah Goldberg apparently decided he needed to be perceived as “more likeable”, so his column yesterday was about his dog. He’s not very good at that type of writing, either.
foo
seniors seem to be the main opponents of health care reform, comfy in the existence of medicare and somehow confused that it is not a government insurance program.
to combat this, we should start a sock-puppet movement to abolish all government health care — for the sake of conservative ideology, fiscal prudence, and the miracle of the free market. this would simply make clear the real underlying goals of the health-care opposition, but would make seniors realize the choice is not between the current system and the Obama plan — it will eventually be between gov’t insurance for everyone and gov’t insurance for on one.