David Frum states what should be clear to everyone- yes, certain folks on the right are going to whip some people into such a froth they do unspeakable things.
BTW- did anyone happen to be recording CNN this morning? There was an exchange between Rick Sanchez and Cindy Crowley some time between 9 and 9:15 that was a classic.
Napoleon
Tell us more about Sanchez and Crowley.
Mr. Poppinfresh
I think you probably mean Candy Crowley, Terrible Human Being and Official CNN Hambeast. I didn’t see CNN this morning (I can only watch BBC World without wanting to just die), but Crowley is the one CNN trots out to accost people in public with moronic man-on-the-street questions about non-news that totally obfuscates the question at hand, or hops on Brady Bunch split-screen talking head panels with Blitzer or Cooper or whoever to trot out a heaping pile of right-wing concern trolling.
Basically, when John Stewart asked CNN to stop hurting America, he was talking about Candy Crowley.
Michael
Yeah – cough it up.
Mr. Poppinfresh
Candy Crowley: Not My Role to Determine Who is Bigger Liar, via YouTube.
Was this the one that touched you in the bad place, John?
slag
More details, please.
Bubblegum Tate
yes, certain folks on the right are going to whip some people into such a froth they do unspeakable things.
Yes, but those unspeakable things will be the fault of The Left for failing to heed these brave patriots and shutting down debate and acting like fascists, and most of those unspeakable things will actually be done by The Left–union thugs infiltrating grassroots patriot uprisings like Tea Parties, don’t you know.
No, I didn’t make any of that up–those rationales all come from wingnuts
John S.
Candy Crowley has lost a lot of weight. Unfortunately, she looks like something from the movie Thinner. As if the moribund state of her soul is eating her from the inside out.
That is, if she even has a soul to speak of. I’m starting to think not having one is a pre-requisite for working at CNN.
ricky
Was a taser involved or did Rick merely exchange some flesh for her next facelift?
PeakVT
The president can be met and bested on the field of reason—but only by people who are themselves reasonable.
Snort. I don’t remember the Bush administration ever backing down in the face of facts. Nice flip, Frumbie.
lutton
Frum stepped over the line with his hypothesizing about under which circumstances somebody should shoot the president.
First, some of the wackos out there do believe Obama is doing those things, so Frum basically just gave them his permission to threaten the life of the president.
Second, even if Obama really were trying to usurp the constitution and threaten the existence of the republic, there are legal and procedural avenues of recourse available through congress, the supreme court and the states.
linda
candy crowley helpfully informed the country that those country bumkins in iowa don’t drink no green tea or eat arugula, when those democratic candidates had the temerity to mention those items while campaigning.
oh yeah, and john kerry ordered SWISS cheese on his philly steak samich…
just keeping the dems honest — that’s candy’s motto.
Carnacki
Candy Crowley always looks like she’s about to cry.
Proper Gander
candy crowley helpfully informed the country that those country bumkins in iowa don’t drink no green tea or eat arugula,
News to me, some of my friends eat arugula and I drink green tea every day (although I found out I can only get black tea at sunday brunch at Granite City in Cedar Rapids). But then again, new acquaintances sometimes ask me why a person like me is living in Iowa.
Leelee for Obama
@Carnacki: Candy Crowley always makes me want to give her a reason to cry. She is such a complete tool, and obviously, journalism wasn’t her major.
Brachiator
@lutton:
Frum should be fired for writing this. Period.
Davis X. Machina
Candy Crowley always looks like she’s about to cry.
Blame that on the 25th amendment. George can’t run again, and her world is empty as a result.
KXB
What are you doing watching CNN at 9:00 AM? I get to the office early enough so I can browse the website of the NY Times, Chicago Tribune, and Wall Street Journal with my first cup of coffee – all without annoying anchors or “experts”. Granted – I do miss Robin Meade.
El Cid
Hey, the Honduran army claimed that a Supreme Court ruling allowed their death squad battalion to throw out of the country a President they didn’t like, and U.S. Republicans think that that was fantastic and totally legal, so, hey, um, you know, uh…
Violet
David Frum better hope none of these nutjobs comes after him. They don’t like anyone who points out the truth and shooting the messenger would just be collateral damage.
El Cid
By the way, Candy Crowley may not have been perfect but she did relatively good late in the 2008 campaign and called out a bunch of Palinoid nonsense, which is why she got that ‘No Bias No Bull’ gig.
Violet
@lutton:
@Brachiator:
Agreed. My jaw dropped when I read that paragraph. There are NO reasons that make shooting the President acceptable. If he’s breaking the law, then use the Constitutional means available to deal with him.
David Frum’s column was fine until that paragraph. He essentially okayed shooting the President. Because the nutjobs believe Obama really is a fascist fascist, Nazi who’s creating death panels to kill the old and infirm while plotting to overthrow the constitution.
Va Highlander
@El Cid:
Hillary seems to approve as well – at least tacitly.
ironranger
Those few conservatives warning that encouraging the frothing at the mouth mobs is bad for the R party are whistling in the wind. A majority of R legislators would have to come out strong & repeatedly condemning the death panel, etc garbage & we know that’s not going to happen. The republicans are betting it all on the strait jacket crowd.
Zifnab
@Violet: I want to meet alternate universe David Frum so I can hear him say this about Bush.
But then I also want to meet the alternate universe Bill Kristol that is prophetically always right. And the alternate universe Dick Cheney – world’s biggest hippie.
But the real people I would rather not meet, or even see on my television screen. David Frum has always been a tool.
Brick Oven Bill
Re: “Unspeakable Things”
Why is it that when 10 to 15 people are shot and stabbed every night in one neighborhood that it is not newsworthy, but when one Citizen carries a legal firearm and a Jefferson quote, that it makes national news?
Exercising one’s right to keep and bear arms is a legitimate political act. So is quoting the Founding Fathers.
In my opinion, the true extremists and haters are those in Chicago who are killing people.
asiangrrlMN
@lutton: Damn skippy. I had to read the article after y’all commented on this portion, and I am just shaking my head. We already have a bunch of nutjubs who truly think President Obama is a fascist. Now, Frum, under the guise of rationality, has just given them the permission (even if, to be generous, that was not his intent) to fire away. This is unacceptable rhetoric. Sadly, though, I bet we see more “If then” statements of this ilk.
linda
David Frum’s column was fine until that paragraph. He essentially okayed shooting the President. Because the nutjobs believe Obama really is a fascist fascist, Nazi who’s creating death panels to kill the old and infirm while plotting to overthrow the constitution.
yep. christ, i don’t even dare speak this concern out loud
wasabi gasp
Frum is as much of a douchebag as the the rest of the ultraviolence set he pretends to deride. Actually, with that line, he just bested them all, including Sarah Palin.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
Frum was right to point out that the “Tree of Liberty” quote we seem to see popping up everywhere is from a 1787 letter written by Jefferson. What Frum didn’t tell you is that it was written about Shay’s Rebellion and it was, obviously, a pre-Reigh of Terror Jefferson writing that letter. Jefferson felt quite differently about the “Tree of Liberty” only a few short years later. Blue Hampshire diarist Jack Mitchell wrote a brief post about the “Tree of Liberty” and its connection to far right extremism:
I recommend you click the link. It is a sobering reminder of who, and what, we are dealing with.
phantomist
Shorter BoB ….”but I fuck one goat”
demimondian
@Brick Oven Bill: You’re a racist troll, but just so the rest of the world doesn’t buy into your racist tripe, that’s 10 to 18 people shot or stabbed in the entire Chicago metro area — a rather larger place than “just one neighborhood”.
slip
@El Cid:
You’re thinking of Campbell Brown, not Candy Crowley.
LondonLee
@El Cid:
It’s Campbell Brown who does that show.
Mrs. Dan Senor to her friends.
Leelee for Obama
@Brick Oven Bill: BOB, those people are criminals. There are laws in place that, if enforced could, and would, imprison them This is an issue, I gran,t that begs for far more attention than it gets. But it is an issue of law and jurisprudence.
Mr, Kostric was within his rights and, and as uncomfortable as it made me feel, he should not have been made to leave, and was not. His sign, on the other hand, was free speech, but inflammatory. Like Frum’s idiocy, it gives those who are not grounded in Constitutional procedure permission to remove the Tyrant they perceive to be threatening. There is much to be improved in the Impeachment procedure-but it is the vehicle that the writer of the tree of liberty quote and his fellow insurgents put in place instead of armed conflict or assassination.
Just sayin’
b-psycho
@Brick Oven Bill: Say McCain had won, and a diehard leftist showed up at a presidential event with that sign and a gun. Still no big deal to you?
GregB
Ha..B.O.B. is shocked, shocked that the media doesn’t give a flaming red shit about urban violence.
B.O.B. aren’t we due for a missing white woman story in the news 24/7?
What a country.
-G
joes527
@Violet: Holy crap. I thought that folks here were getting worked up over some oblique reference.
nope:
Holy crap.
El Cid
No, no, I’m thinking of Brick Tamlin. Or was it Cameron Diaz? Or Cameroun, or Aleister Crowley. One of those. You know.
Seanly
@El Cid:
El Cid, you are thinking of Campbell Brown (married to a minor Bush official btw). She’s purtier than Candy though she seems to have witch eyes…
Candy Cravenley is worse than Wolf Blitzenerer when it comes to worthless journo-concern trolling. Her entire raison d’etre is to spout IOKIYAR nonsense.
Brick Oven Bill
That number is from one hospital. There are many hospitals in Chicago demimondian.
I happen to live in a place where there have been frequent teabagger sightings, and there has never been a shooting or stabbing in my memory since a person who once used to come in and listen to me play guitar did the murder-suicide thing. But this was years ago and I think he was very sick. This was also under George Bush’s Presidency.
This would lead one to conclude that the teabaggers are not the extremists. A rational person would conclude that Chicagoans are the extremists. Shooting or stabbing a person is a hateful act. Teabaggers, in my experience, come over, have perhaps some adult beverages and food, and discuss the Principles and Values established by the Founding Fathers.
El Cid
No, sorry, I meant to say the Cleveland Browns.
joe from Lowell
If Barack Obama really was a fascist planning those terrible things, we wouldn’t vote him into office. If we did, and then discovered his fascistic tendencies, our elected representatives in Congress and our judges in the judiciary would stop him cold from implementing his diabolical plans, and then we’d vote him out in the next election.
The only reasons it could be legitimate to use force against a democratically-elected leader would be if he ceased to operate within the lawful boundaries of his office, or violated the process of democratic elections and succession.
Even if he’s Nazi, an actual Nazi.
Third Eye Open
BOB:
Lack of affordable health care kills 50 people a day.
Why do you hate Americans so much that you can’t get behind a sane, comprehensive plan that covers ~95% of the public? I am the only guardian of my cat, and if I get sick you are condemning her to a life of abject poverty or euthanasia at the hands of a shelter. You sick bastard, you hate my AMERICAN cat, too! Have you no heart? Why won’t you return my calls? That dildo you sent me last Christmas was an expression of the BOB I fell in love with, now its excuses about your wife asking questions and your prescription of V!agra running out. You’ve changed, BOB.
Kilkee
If Frum isn’t fired for that, one must ask what could possibly be a firing offense. And have they no editors? Did no one else think this unwise? Jesus.
An otherwise sensible article that inexplicably includes the demented notion that IF a President were acting unconstitutionally, the remedy is assassination rather than impeachment. I truly fear that it is only a matter of when, not if, the rantings of Limbaugh and Beck lead some nut to try to ‘save the Constitution’ by ‘watering the Tree of Liberty.’ Just this morning Beck quite directly accused Obama of planning the murder-by-eugenics of millions of Americans. He is now, I must believe, actively encouraging violence against the President. And if nothing else dissuades him, Beck might want to consider than if one of his followers ever makes such an attempt, there won’t be enough bodyguards in the world to save his own sorry butt.
feebog
The Right Wing Tools like Hannity are already anticipating one of their wacked-out wingnuts shooting up one of these townhalls. And then the frame will be, its the Democrats fault for introducing socialized medicine in the first place.
Zifnab
@joes527:
Shocking, but not without precedent.
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200508220006
If you think the man in charge done you wrong, betta get out yo six shoota and put a cap in his ass, yo. Dan Frum be all gansta and shit.
asiangrrlMN
@El Cid: You’re on a roll, El Cid! Keep it up!
@Third Eye Open: Ok. This thread is over. You are teh winner! Way to crack me the fuck up!
Joey Maloney a/k/a The Bard Of Balloon Juice
@joe from Lowell:
Yeah, it worked perfectly with GWB and Darth Cheney, didn’t it?
over_educated
It’s over:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/122276/Town-Hall-Meetings-Generate-Interest-Sympathy.aspx
Polls are showing that the majority of folks are MORE sympathetic to the protestors after watching their antics. God that’s depressing.
GregB
Some effing loon was arrested outside of a town hall even for Senator Cardin holding a sign wishing death upon President Obama and Michelle and their children.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/death-to-obama-sign-holde_n_258601.html
The GOP and the rightwing are resembling Al Qaeda, you know, the group that President Bush said used violence to advance their political agenda.
Violet
@joes527:
Holy crap, indeed. Frum just framed “acceptable” reasons for assasssinating the President of the United States.
He should be fired.
asiangrrlMN
@over_educated: I felt that way, too, until I read Benen’s analysis. Here it is. Read, GALLUP GAUGES RESPONSES TO ANGRY MOBS…. (Benen! If you read this blog, I implore you to make each entry a separate link).
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/
Jay in Oregon
I left a comment on that article that I will be extremely disappointed if he still has a job by the end of the week.
I don’t care if you replace “Barack Obama” with “George W. Bush”, “Dick Cheney”, “Rush Limbaugh”, or “Ann Coulter”; there is no reason to say someone deserves to be shot for their political beliefs — even though most of the people I listed are closer to being “all those things” than Barack Obama. I don’t want fucking mob rule deciding who gets to lead our country.
Even if he doesn’t lose his job, he’s proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he should be ignored as a serious thinker.
joes527
@Joey Maloney a/k/a The Bard Of Balloon Juice:
Y’know … I’m no Bush Cheney fan, but I see having the 2008 (and yes, even the 2004) election play out how they did as being vastly superior to having some nutcase cap his ass.
Great Flying Spaghetti Monster. Get some perspective.
SenyorDave
Not sure if firing is truly merited, but if his editors don’t have a serious chat about what is inappropriate there is something seriously wrong.
I would guess that a significant amount of the listeners of Limbaugh/Beck/Savage, et. al. believe that Obama does contemplate overthrowing the American constitutional republic. Hell, that’s practically the GOP party line these days.
Forget what I said at the beginning. He should be fired. He gave an in-print justification for murder.
wasabi gasp
OT: Les Paul just died.
Demo Woman
John has a teaser about Rick and Candy and then skips out. What’s up with that?
David Frum went over the line with his comment but in fairness we should print the next sentence.
Jay in Oregon
@GregB:
Given that Pete Sessions said the Republicans could learn from the Taliban about insurgent tactics, this is surprising how?
They’ve all but shouted from the rooftops that they hate Obama and the Democrats and will do anything and everything to undermine his Presidency. It is going to get uglier before people catch on that it’s not hyperbole.
Mike P
@over_educated: Meh…we’re not even halfway through August, POTUS is now on the road doing town halls, his ad campaign is just starting up and there’s better than even odds some kooky protester does something that causes those numbers to flip overnight.
Ash Can
Re Frum’s paragraph: Holy fucking shit, THAT’S NOT EVEN A DOG WHISTLE.
JackieBinAZ
Are these people even halfway aware that the last time Americans saw watering of the tree of liberty in practice, it led to passage of the Civil Rights Act?
Mr Furious
I read the entire Frum piece with a skeptic’s eye and still found myself nodding along—until that second-to-last paragraph.
By including his hypothetical reason to assassinate President Obama—he specifically names Obama, it’s not even a “hypothetical leader”—Frum’s entire column changes from an admonishment from within, to a laundry list of motives, complete with links.
Kilkee
@Demo Woman: The qualifier in Frum’s statement is not nearly enough. First, because those who think Obama IS all those things will simply ignore it, and second, because even if he WAS all those things, it would still be urging murder for political differences.
joe from Lowell
Joe Maloney,
Stop bitching like the Deathers just because you didn’t get the policies you wanted after your candidate lost the election.
I have no respect for people who can’t tell the difference between totalitarian persecution and the other party in America’s two-party system.
Go get your Obama-as-Hitler sign, because you’re clearly more comfortable around that crowd.
Violet
@Kilkee:
Exactly. Frum spends the entire column showing examples of nutjobs who believe the very things he then deems “acceptable” reasons for shooting President Obama. So the next crazy wingnut who decides to shoot the president can just say, “But Obama is a fascist Nazi death panelist who is overthrowing the constitution. It’s okay to shoot him. Just ask David Frum.”
wasabi gasp
@Demo Woman:
Not what? A Nazi pinko commie fascist…or shot yet?
Citizen_X
Fire him, hell. Deport that terrorism-promoting a$$hole back to Canada. Let them deal with him (sorry, Canadians!). You can’t come to this country and start rationalizing assassination of the President.
What’s Frum’s status, anyway? Did he get sooper-fast naturalization because he came up with that “Axis of Evil” nonsense or something?
asiangrrlMN
@Violet: Thirded. That “But he is not” felt very tacked-on to me. This piece is very disingenuous. I don’t think Frum will be fired (nor, do I necessarily think he should be), but it should be made very clear that any kind of speculation on assassinating the sitting president is beyond the pale.
Mark S.
@over_educated:
Here is the post asiangrrlMN was talking about. Also, from Nate Silver:
While these aren’t great numbers for Dems, I think a) most people aren’t following this very closely, and b) the 34% who are sympathetic to the protesters are pretty much the hardcore Obama haters.
Demo Woman
Violet and Kilkee, I totally agree with you comments. Hopefully it does not get to the point that people use the Frum defense in court. I still think that it fair to add that sentence. He had a reasoned article and totally lost credibility.
Rand Careaga
That was hamfisted and naive of Frum (and it’s something his editor needed to talk to him about before rather than after the column reached print and phosphor) but I don’t think it was dog-whistling, and I’m very much inclined to doubt whether there are many self-styled tyrannicides out there who have merely been waiting all year for Frum’s permission before they lock & load.
Indylib
@asiangrrlMN: If you want to link a single article from Benen’s place hit the little blue permalink at the bottom it will open the article all buy itself.
Napoleon
@Rand Careaga:
I agree with your take.
Joey Maloney a/k/a The Bard Of Balloon Juice
@joes527:
Joe, you misunderstand me. My point was that your idealized view of how our Constitutional system is supposed to self-correct is not quite borne out by recent events.
And joe from Lowell, kiss my ass. Seriously, lovingly, deeply, top to bottom and side to side. I say that because I have no respect for people who can’t tell when “the other party” has not just fallen, but galloped off the edge of respecting the rule of law. It remains to be seen if we can recover from the Bushies’ deliberate, systematic destruction of our core institutions but even optimistically we’re going to be 20 years cleaning up the mess and reversing the hard shove they gave us towards “totalitarian persecution”.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@GregB:
There’s a video floating around (can’t find a link dammit) of a masked wingnut with an AK-47, muttering darkly about “taking our country back.” All that was missing was a bound and blindfolded govt employee kneeling beside him.
Napoleon
@over_educated:
You are obviously not over educated because that is not what that poll says. 34% is just 1/3, and I have $100 that says that 34% were never for it in the first place but just answered the question the way they did to give a negative answer to something involving Obama.
Jay in Oregon
@Demo Woman:
The problem is, he’s implying — scratch that, he’s asserting — that there is a set of criteria under which it is acceptable to assassinate a sitting President. That is completely unacceptable.
And there are plenty of people who believe that Obama is a death-worshipping fascist who is planning on destroying the American way of life, who now have another piece of supporting data to add to their “tree of liberty must be refreshed” fantasies. They don’t care about the “But he is not” part and will see a wink and a nod between the two:
“I know Obama is not a secret socialist bent on destroying our way of life and imposing Sharia law, but if he was *wink, wink* someone should do something about it.”
David Frum either needs to flatly repudiate those comments, or he needs to be fired. As it is, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he and his associates are about to be paid a call by the Secret Service.
Sasha
Because he was making a highly provocative statement that was meant to draw an unseemly amount of attention?
If the same dude had instead used a quote from the Quran demanding jihad against tyrants, he would have gotten the same kind of WTF?! attention.
shelley matheis
OT, but that solo photo of Tunch a few threads down looks like a boudoir shot!
Shawn in ShowMe
Fixed.
Ron
I’m not sure which specific exchange you mean. I did catch Sanchez saying something to the effect of “Isn’t it our job to tell everyone that there’s nothing in the bill about pulling the plug on Grandma?” I generally like watching Sanchez. He doesn’t seem afraid to just tell things as they are as opposed to trying to look “balanced” by giving equal credence to ridiculous crap.
BongCrosby
“…and there has never been a shooting or stabbing in my memory since a person who once used to come in and listen to me play guitar did the murder-suicide thing.”
Words fail…
Demo Woman
I agree with all the comments. Frum definitely should write that the line was inappropriate. Since there are many whacko sites that take things out of context, I was just trying to be overly cautious. But he’s not does not excuse Frum’s previous sentence.
Most of the comments do point out that the line was inappropriate. My favorite comment is that the left did it too. My sons can tell you that’s not an appropriate response. Wrong is wrong.
asiangrrlMN
@Indylib: Oh, good god, I’m an idiot. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I quote him quite a bit on my blog, and this will make it so much easier. Thanks!
Da Bomb
@over_educated: Also read Nate Silver’s anaylsis on that particular poll. Nothing to worry about. Reform will be passed.
Brick Oven Bill
That was not a dildo Third Eye Open, that was a pest-strip. You might want to hit it with some Lysol.
If people are offended by armed Citizens with independent streaks Sasha, perhaps they should have moved to a Country that was not founded by armed revolutionaries. One good place to move would be Canada, where the population are subjects of the Queen.
The history of the world is a history of tyrants. This government has crossed no lines. The first two Amendments were established by some very smart men to keep it this way.
Jihad is waged in support of tyrants, not against them, by the way. Sharia establishes an all-powerful central government.
catclub
The people that would consider this permission to assassinate Obama
don’t read Frum in the first place – he’s too liberal.
So the actual harm Frum does in this column is approximately…zero.
Untwist your knickers.
catclub
[email protected]
“Jihad is waged in support of tyrants”
Tell it to the Shah.
gnomedad
@Brick Oven Bill:
This proves there’s nothing to worry about. When some patriot turns a government building to rubble, then we can worry.
apocalipstick
The Rude Pundit has a must-read take on the “tree of liberty quote.”
The Rude Pundit
2th&nayle
@Brick Oven Bill: Ok Bob, I’m certainly no t-bagger, but I can sit down and enjoy some beer and ribs witch ya, maybe talk a little about the Founders, but please, I don’t think I can go the guitar playin’ if it makes ya want to pull the m/s gig.
Also, Bless Les wherever he is.
Violet
@catclub:
Rush Limbaugh quotes him on a regular enough basis that I’ve heard him do it and I’m hardly a regular listener. The kinds of people who would consider this permission to assassinate Obama DO listen to Limbaugh.
I’ll be interested to hear if this column gets picked up by the likes of Limbaugh, Beck, etc. Of course they’ll use the standard disclaimer, “I’m not saying anyone should assassinate the President, but see, there would be good reason to….” And all it takes is one crazy person.
Sigh.
Third Eye Open
@asiangrrlMN: Oh, there is a whole day of posting left here at BJ, but its an honor to simply be nominated.
Re: stripper songs; Does it really get any better or more overt than Closer by NIN? Perhaps something from Lords of Acid, but that might be too random for your more mainstream strip-clubs
Michael
If these wingnut “patriots” decide to unleash the holy hell they appear to be itching to, it is my personal hope to see some unholy hell unleashed on those asshole fake “patriots”, their homes, businesses, the propagandists who spur them on and the shadowy funders who make it all happen.
And I ain’t talking judgments and court cases.
over_educated
@Napoleon:
1. Educated doesn’t mean smart, cut me some slack.
2. What I was referring to was that 34% are more sympathetic while only 21% are less sympathetic. Doesn’t that imply that overall this jackassery has caused more folks to disagree with healthcare reform and sympathize with the teabaggers instead of viewing them as total loons?
Zifnab
@gnomedad: Nonsense. Timmothy McVeigh was a liberal dontchano! And, to be fair, he never would have bombed if Clinton had handled Waco better. So, in a way, this is all Ross Perot’s fault for running in ’92. QED, bitches!
Shawn in ShowMe
They don’t have to. They’ll get Rush’s version of the article on the radio.
Bender
yes, certain folks on the right are going to whip some people into such a froth they do unspeakable things.
Meanwhile, certain folks on the left HAVE whipped up a froth over health care to the extent that they HAVE ACTUALLY done unspeakable things…
…and the left and the Media (redundant) don’t care about it.
So I’m supposed to be more concerned over a prediction of violence than I am over real-life violence?
steve s
” Frum stepped over the line with his hypothesizing about under which circumstances somebody should shoot the president.”
“Frum should be fired for writing this. Period.”
Okay, let’s look at what Frum actually wrote.
Sounds reasonable to me.
mak
Matt Taibbi: “I think the one image that will stick with me is Candy Crowley (CNN) jamming fistfuls of complimentary chocolate chip cookies into her mouth in a bus in Houston (the Kerry campaign had given us all free cookies wrapped in American-flag-patterned bandanas) and talking about Kucinich. She’s got this huge waterfall of crumbs coming out of her mouth and she’s talking about how ugly Kucinich is. That to me summed up the whole campaign press crew, right there…”
gwangung
Seriously, not necessarily. It may have just hardened people’s positions in that 34% were previously against reform anyway.
Third Eye Open
@Brick Oven Bill: Sorry buddy, when I saw your crotch hair stuck to it, I assumed you were trying to send a message. But now I realize you were just trying it out for me. Just remember i’m the pitcher, you’re the catcher. Later fuzzy-britches.
timb
@Brachiator: fired from what? He works at his own organization which attempts to re-brand conservatives as less nutty. It’s a lonely job and I doubt he has a lot of employees! He can’t fire himself.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
Oh look, it’s Bender the Fail Troll.
“But I’m too lame to actually specify these UNSPEAKABLE things or provide any citation.”
anonevent
@steve s: The constitution already addresses what to do in these situations. If Obama were a fascist Nazi trying to overthrow the republic, he would get impeached and removed from office.
How creating a public option for health care is worse than ignoring people’s fourth amendment rights only make sense if someone thinks that only Republicans can make laws.
SiubhanDuinne
O/T: Has anyone heard anything about, you know, anything, from RedKitten?
Bender
Joe from Lowell (#42)
The only reasons it could be legitimate to use force against a democratically-elected leader would be if he ceased to operate within the lawful boundaries of his office, or violated the process of democratic elections and succession.
Oh, my God! Joe from Lowell just gave people permission — nay, direct orders! — to start shooting at Obama! Come on, Joe from Lowell, some people really do believe those things about Obama! You’ve signed his death warrant!</i
See, that’s how retarded you all sound.
Just curious — why do you BJers keep editing out Frum’s “But he is not” from the end of that quote? (Joe from Lowell didn’t even say “But he is not!” OUTRAGE!) Because it makes it less provocative? Come on. You’re already in the Echo Chamber of all Echo Chambers here. Why take out context in order to gin up fake outrage over something Frum clearly was not saying? It’s not like you misfits aren’t wacky enough to hate Frum solely based on the fact that he’s not a flaming lefty!
catclub
@Shawn and Violet
I appear to suffer (yippee for me) incomplete knowledge of Limbaugh.
I still think that they would not be READING Frum.
gex
@catclub: The other way to look at it is that we’ve got the real nut jobs on the far right and then we have these respectable, more moderate Republicans. And the respectable, moderate ones think that there are criteria that would make shooting the president okay.
joes527
@Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon):
Dude.
That’s because they are .. y’know … unspeakable.
Pay attention. ;-)
Whispers
@steves
Really? That sounds “reasonable”? To bypass impeachment and move straight to assassination? And for what reasons?
1) Being a “fascist” – if you haven’t noticed, many people are already saying that. Since this is essentially namecalling, is there a standard of evidence here?
2) Planning “death panels” to “kill the old and infirm” – I’m sorry, but does the President have this kind of authority? Not that I’m aware of. It would have to go through Congress, right? Wouldn’t it make more sense to just block the legislation? Mind you, all that is needed to trigger Frum’s hypothetical is that Obama “plan” something.
3) Contemplating “overthrowing the constitutional republic”
Apparently this is a thought crime. Frum wants to punish Obama for what he thinks. Of course, there would never be any evidence of this, since Obama’s “contemplations” would probably be held secret. In any case, there are legal avenues to pursue that presumably could stop a President from “overthrowing the constitutional republic”. Wouldn’t it be more sensible to pursue those first?
Ironic that Bush’s speechwriter, of all people, should worry his pretty little head about a President “overthrowing the constitutional republic”. I suppose the irony would have been worse if it had been Scooter Libby making these pronouncements, but we’ll have to make do.
What’s upsetting here is the Frum is legitimizing political assassination of a US President at all.
If I say to you, “if you slashed my tires, I would beat you to death with a tire iron”, it doesn’t become an acceptable statement simply because I’ve stipulated that you haven’t slashed my tires. As a hypothetical conditional, it’s also wrong.
Bender
“But I’m too lame to actually specify these UNSPEAKABLE things or provide any citation.”
Yeah, because you guys at BJ are sticklers about documenting all those “organized mobs hired by Big Insurance,” right? Still waiting!
Meanwhile:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/obama-healthcare-reform.html
I’ve posted the youtube links here on earlier threads. Dude, go to youtube and search “carnahan union thugs” or “tampa union thugs,” if you are that uninformed.
mingo
armed Citizens with independent streaks
make that “armed, insane Citizens with
independenthomicidal streaks.Comrade Michael "Don't Take Me Alive" Brown
Some turnout, a hundred grand
Get with it we’ll shake his hand
Don’t bother to understand
Don’t question the little man
Be part of the brotherhood
Yes it’s chain lightning
It feels so good
Hush brother, we cross the square
Act natural like you don’t care
Turn slowly and comb your hair
Don’t trouble the midnight air
We’re standing just where he stood
It was chain lightning
It feels so good
— Steely Dan, “Chain Lightning”
Shawn in ShowMe
Natch. If Sarah Palin doesn’t have to read to stay informed, why should they?
Sasha
@Brick Oven Bill:
Offended? No. Appalled? Definitely. He was certainly within his rights, but it was a statement (exactly of what I’m not sure) made in questionable taste and intended to draw inordinate attention. He succeeded.
(And I suspect that if someone had protested in the exact same manner for a Bush town-hall meeting, the immediate headline from Fox would have been “Liberal Protesters: Assassins in Our Midst?” Of course, such a person would have been herded into a “free speech zone” a good distance away from the event first.)
I wish the current crop of conservatives agreed with you. A mere seven months of an Obama presidency and people are already declaring him the second coming of Hitler. There is no good reason to equate this administration with tyrants, fascists, or Nazis.
Jihad simply means “struggle”. The struggle can be internal (against vices or imperfections) or external (against injustices). The current uprising in Iran, against actual tyrants, could properly be referred to as a jihad.
Montysano (All Hail Marx & Lennon)
@Bender: “Carnahan union thugs” = the Kenny Gladney thing? Fail again, Bender.
The LA Times article was basically “Political party seeks to hire people”. Yeah, that’s a press-stopper.
I don’t know if the rightwing town hall mobs were hired or not. I don’t care. What I care about is the organized disruption of these events, the attempt to prevent public discourse. It’s vile, low, scummy behavior.
steve s
There are extreme circumstances which would would necessitate violence, but this is nowhere remotely near it, is what Frum is saying. Just because you don’t like the guy, and I don’t either, doesn’t mean that everything he says must be wrong and terrible. Don’t be stupid.
Hitting the Self-Righteous Anger button a little too hard is what turned many of us off of Olbermann.
Bender
“Carnahan union thugs” = the Kenny Gladney thing? Fail again, Bender.
“Fail?” Really? You forgot “Epic!” What a shattering rebuttal! Gold star for YOU!
The LA Times article was basically “Political party seeks to hire people”. Yeah, that’s a press-stopper.
Only if you can’t read did it say that, Monty. Only if you can’t read…
What I care about is the organized disruption of these events, the attempt to prevent public discourse.
Funny, disruption of Bush events was always OK! It was the ultimate expression of patriotism and bravery! What has changed that shouting is all of a sudden “anti-American?” Hmmmm, I wonder. Still waiting on the video of “organized disruption.” Still waiting.
Shawn in ShowMe
Being turned off of Olbermann for hitting the Self-Righteous Anger button too often is like being pissed off for Rachel Maddow for hitting the Concern Troll button too often. Or Howard Dean for hitting the Populist Outrage button too often.
I don’t think it’s an act. They were that way long before they became household names. I love Cenk Uygur but if he ever gets a primetime show he may punch out a GOP shill right there on camera.
kay
“Hyperbolic accusation and fantasy murder may well serve a talk-radio industry facing a collapse in advertising revenues—down 30–40 percent over the past two years, reports NewMajority.com’s Tim Mak.
As revenues dwindle, hosts feel compelled to intensify the talk-radio experience, hoping to win larger audience share with more extreme talk. It’s like the early days of the pornography industry: At first a naked woman is thrilling enough, but soon a jaded audience is demanding more and more, wilder and wilder.”
Well. That’s much better than malice. They’re ginning up the rage for ad revenue.
Frum is just wasting his time.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Brick Oven Bill:
I’ll bet. But what perspective are these sightings from? Are you laying down and watching the teabag being lowered, or standing and looking down?
@Bender:
I think I’ve seen that link before, in the dictionary definition of “weak sauce.” Still waiting for juicy proof of all of those “unspeakable things” Dems are doing to advance health care reform…
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Bender:
You mean those events with hand-picked audiences? Where people were barred from entering because they had the wrong bumper stickers on their cars or other equally asinine reasons? Yeah, totally comparable to the town halls.
Kilkee
BTW, am I the only person out there who was amazed that other people would actually stand next to that moron with the gun and sign? If I’m a Fightin’ Teabagger rallying against Socia-Fascis-Naz-uizm, should I nevertheless not take note of the likelihood that:
(1) in all probability, Secret Service snipers have this moron in their telescopic sights even as he stands here gaping at the world and tugging at his dopey hat;
(2) if he should — even inadvertantly — drop his hand down toward his gun they will likely spatter his brains in a nanosecond; and
(3) if I’m standing next to/behind/near him, my odds of being collateral damage are pretty good.
Legalize
I wonder if BOB thinks this fellow is harmless. After all, he’s merely expressing himself:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/2009/08/death-to-obama-sign-holder-at-town-hall-detained-by-secret-service.php?ref=fpblg
Can you imagine the headline on the Malkin Thing’s blog for months following such a display when W was president? Something to the effect of all liberals being violent hate mongers and yadda yadda yadda – intern them all. The end. Followed by dozens of pearl-clutch comments. And something about God / Jesus and Islam. Also.
SiubhanDuinne
Eric Boehlert over at Media Matters apparently didn’t read the entire Frum piece. He refers to Frum (approvingly, as far as I can tell) as a “lonely voice” and quotes only a couple of paragraphs but NOT the part about when it might be okay to shoot the President.
Conservative David Frum remains a lonely voice
August 13, 2009 3:05 pm ET by Eric Boehlert
CMcC
Frum deserves a lot of credit for his essay. However, …
Frum: “If Barack Obama really were a fascist, really were a Nazi, really did plan death panels to kill the old and infirm, really did contemplate overthrowing the American constitutional republic—if he were those things, somebody should shoot him. But he is not…”
So. This is what it has come to for “original intent” conservatives: the Constitutional process of impeachment is for blow jobs; for everything else, there is shooting.
EconWatcher
I gotta say, I think the Frum article was well-intentioned and helpful, with one very unfortunately worded sentence. I never liked Frum (and I personally met him once, and thought he was even more of a jerk in person than he appears on TV). But this hyper-ventilating seems misdirected. Aim it instead at Beck or one of those other nutjobs.
Frum’s trying to explain in simple terms the reason why really extreme rhetoric is dangerous–because it can provoke violence. If maybe one additional clause were added, I’d have to agree with exactly what he wrote: “If Obama really were the new incarnation of Adolf Hitler, ready to kill the old and infirm, and there were no other way to stop him, then it would be justified to shoot him.” The penultimate clause is important, and he left it out–that makes the paragraph poorly worded. But for goodness sake, can’t you see that he’s actually trying to help?
Chad N Freude
@CMcC:
Personally, I’m relieved that receiving a blow job is not grounds for assassination.
ominira
@over_educated:
It says to me that 66% (21% + the 44% who are indifferent/unsure) are not buying the protestors rants. That seems perfectly okay to me and tells me that people are much savvier than you might think.
Now, I’d like a poll on whether the 34% polled belong to the 28% of people who still think GWB was the second coming of the baby Jesus. And whether they think medicare and social security should be dismantled, like Ms. Abrams.
Chad N Freude
@EconWatcher:
— John Wilkes Booth
Chad N Freude
That should have been “incarnation of … John Brown”.
I’m still grappling with no buttons., Sorry.
ominira
I meant 45% indifferent or unsure not 44%. Can’t wait for the edit function to return.
Bender
It says to me that 66% (21% + the 44% who are indifferent/unsure) are not buying the protestors rants. That seems perfectly okay to me and tells me that people are much savvier than you might think.
Well, that’s a comforting misinterpretation, but whatever gets you through the night, I guess. Remember, at least half of those 44% who are unaffected were dead-set against ObamaCare to begin with. That they haven’t changed their minds should not be comforting to you.
Comrade Michael "I'd Love to Help You Out, Which Way Did You Come In" Brown
@EconWatcher:
I might see that if:
1. Frum hadn’t also spent a decade justifying every single neo-con outrage by sneering at the intelligence, education, motives, and/or patriotism of those who opposed Bush and his gang on policy matters.
2. He hadn’t once again — and in the very same opinion piece where he is allegedly trying to “help”, no less — demonstrated the utter intellectual bankruptcy of conservatives, among whom assassination is apparently the only “real” recourse citizens have against an administration perceived as lawless.
You seem to forget: For nearly all of the 21st century so far, we had an administration that was widely perceived as lawless. Do you think it would have been “helping” for, say, Keith Olbermann to claim on national TV that assassinating Bush was perfectly justified if he were in fact torturing and murdering prisoners and spying wholesale on Americans? Or would Olbermann have just been encouraging idiots and maniacs?
EconWatcher
Chad N Freude:
Very nice, but I don’t think that John Wilkes Booth would have also written “BUT HE IS NOT,” and all the rest that Frum wrote to say that the rhetoric needs to be calmed down, because otherwise someone might get hurt by some unhinged person who takes hyperbolic rhetoric seriously. Do you really think this other stuff was insincere, and the real message of Frum’s comment was, go forth and kill? It does not read that way to me, not in the least.
Really, this is the stuff that drives me crazy about our side. Yeah, usually Frum is a DB. But on this one, he was quite obviously trying to say the right thing. The whole point of his blog entry is that murderous rhetoric is irresponsible. He had one sentence that clearly needed an edit. Lighten up, and try to recognize a helping hand when you see one.
Bender
I think I’ve seen that link before, in the dictionary definition of “weak sauce.” Still waiting for juicy proof of all of those “unspeakable things” Dems are doing to advance health care reform…
Props to you. I mean, it takes some huge partisan balls for a group that whines to high heaven about people daring to shout their disapproval at members of Congress during town meetings (and composes editorials and blog posts about the massive danger that this portends at some point in the future) to also whine that the video of union thugs actually beating down a guy (and getting arrested for same) because he’s a black conservative who is anti-ObamaCare is “weak sauce.”
So props for that.
Third Eye Open
@Bender: So what do you call the union guy who is on the ground when the video starts, being protected by other members of the crowd? From the evidence you have then he was beaten too. Where is the arrest record for the “union thug” you’re talking about?
Your outrage is past its sell-by date. Plus, you’re a horrible troll, kick your game up a notch then come back and see us.
Chad N Freude
@EconWatcher:
No, of course not. But I do think that writing “somebody should shoot him” is at best reckless and at worst pandering to the pistol-packin’ shoutdowners. “somebody should shoot him” says that if in the judgment of one of these people in the crowd the President (any President)
should be summarily, extra-judicially executed by whoever has the best shot a some public event. There are Constitutional procedures to deal with this, and Brooks could have said something like “quickly impeached and forced from office.”
Extremely poor judgment by Frum and his editors.
Chad N Freude
@Bender: We don’t whine “to high heaven about people daring to shout their disapproval at members of Congress during town meetings,” we whine about people daring to shout their disapproval in a way that prevents the member of congress and anyone else from expressing themselves.
Brachiator
@timb:
Here’s a start…. “a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute”
Sever connections. Now.
Chris Johnson
Look, here’s the basic objection here:
We live in a society, a rather big one.
One of the rules of society is that even if somebody is plotting the most horrible crimes and cheating in the most awful of ways, WE HAVE POLICE FOR THAT.
The ASSUMPTION is that individuals do not get permission to become judge, jury and executioner, no matter what somebody else is doing. This is not the Wild West. This is not Somalia. We don’t care what you think he’s doing. Call a fucking cop.
The idea that this is a liberal guy that wingnuts don’t even listen to, makes me really sad. Why? Because if that’s true, we’ve internalized the lessons of the radical Right so much that LIBERALS are justifying vigilante justice.
Rather than just mad pearl-clutching about the idea that this guy is endangering a US citizen by inciting wingnuts, how about calling a big fat BULLSHIT on this idea that an individual’s role in society is to execute anybody who’s REALLY bad?
Can we not fucking delegate stuff of that degree of seriousness?
Bender
we whine about people daring to shout their disapproval in a way that prevents the member of congress and anyone else from expressing themselves.
In all the YouTube videos, I haven’t seen one member of Congress unable to express their opinions. They have the microphone and the podium, and it’s what they are saying that’s drawing the ire of these crowds.
What I have seen is pro-ObamaCare speakers shutting down meetings when faced with pointed (but not impolite) questions, Congresspeople having union goons close the doors to an open town meeting in the face of anti-ObamaCare citizens, Congresspeople shouting at citizens and telling them to shut up after the mildest of questions, and Congresswoman-slash-Complete Asshole Sheila Jackson-Lee talking on her cellphone while she’s “there to listen” to the cancer-survivor asking her a question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FTiGI9I1DI
jack fate
My how Frum still manages to make an “excuse” for the fucking retards who peddle the very shit that only now scares him. To wit:
“It’s not enough for conservatives to repudiate violence, as some are belatedly beginning to do. We have to tone down the militant and accusatory rhetoric. If Barack Obama really were a fascist, really were a Nazi, really did plan death panels to kill the old and infirm, really did contemplate overthrowing the American constitutional republic—if he were those things, somebody should shoot him.
A disturbing number of people in this country whole-heartily believe Donk is a fascist, proto-Nazi, doctor of eugenic death, et al.
That funny looking Marxist, fascists, secret Muslim, foreign born, American Hitler, uppity negro president is getting people to make the damnedest hedges. Frum don’t think Obama is any of those things. But if he was? (And a lot of really stupid people have already arrived at such a conclusion.) “Somebody should shoot him.”
I assume he means with a gun. Masturbatory fantasies regarding the 2nd Amendment not withstanding. . .
El Cid
It’s really gonna piss them off if they end up liking their health care and they have to thank a black dude for it.
bob h
Obama is in kook country today to do another Town Hall. If one of the deathers goes Mau Mau on him and has to be wrestled out the front door by the SS, that might prove to be a turning point where Republican ugliness shows itself for all to see.
But I wish I didn’t have a “Don’t go to Dallas” vibe about his going.
tofubo
#80 Shawn in ShowMe, up for editing of the year award
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
Late to the party but I couldn’t pass this one up:
Fix’t.
Exactly. Nothing to add to that, you said it all. Frum was stupid (yet again) for even suggesting that is a solution before dispelling it as unnecessary.
It was wrong to even say it in the first place.
I am waiting for some wingnut to point out that Obama is protected by the SS, thus he must be Hitler.
Shel
I guess I live in different world and certainly in a different country…go north.
And for my sins, I’ve read a lot and written a lot in the mid ’90s on internet about the militia movement and right wing extremism.. William Cooper even sent me emails explaining how, come the revolution, I would be put on trial for treason.
The nut jobs don’t read Frum. They’ve got their own echo chamber and the farthest out it goes is Fox News. So I don’t have any trouble with Frum’s hypotheticals.
And while I disagree with Frum most of the time, he deserves congratulations for setting out the dangers of the nuttiness of the Republican and right wing echo chamber.