Break out the foam #1 fingers and shout out a rowdy chorus of “BEST HEALTH CARE IN THE WORLD”:
They came for new teeth mostly, but also for blood pressure checks, mammograms, immunizations and acupuncture for pain. Neighboring South Los Angeles is a place where health care is scarce, and so when it was offered nearby, word got around.
For the second day in a row, thousands of people lined up on Wednesday — starting after midnight and snaking into the early hours — for free dental, medical and vision services, courtesy of a nonprofit group that more typically provides mobile health care for the rural poor.
Like a giant MASH unit, the floor of the Forum, the arena where Madonna once played four sold-out shows, housed aisle upon aisle of dental chairs, where drilling, cleaning and extracting took place in the open. A few cushions were duct-taped to a folding table in a coat closet, an examining room where Dr. Eugene Taw, a volunteer, saw patients.
When Remote Area Medical, the Tennessee-based organization running the event, decided to try its hand at large urban medical services, its principals thought Los Angeles would be a good place to start. But they were far from prepared for the outpouring of need. Set up for eight days of care, the group was already overwhelmed on the first day after allowing 1,500 people through the door, nearly 500 of whom had still not been served by day’s end and had to return in the wee hours Wednesday morning.
Remote Area Medical got its start serving poor people in the Amazon, but now does most of their work in the United States. You’d think someone would point that out during out current health care debate.
Balconesfault
Just as some say the best beer is free beer … to a wingnut the best medical system is one where they don’t have to pay for anyone elses coverage.
Miriam
Duh, if we have RAM, we don’t need to reform healthcare – everyone can be treated for free! And get a pony!
GP
The news folks need to do some interviews there.. I hear it been a big deal . I thank the medical staff for all of their services there…
JK
Sarah Palin doubles down on her stupid comments about death panels. Ooooo, this time Sarah uses, wow!! 11 footnotes in her Facebook post.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=116471698434
Warren Terra
Why do the facts hate America’s health care “system”?
Shawn in ShowMe
OK, I’m giving 3:1 odds on Obama bringing up at a townhall before the week is out.
Jody
Why would I think that? No reporters or their families need to use those facilities, so therefore the topic is completely un-newsworthy.
beltane
If this was pointed out during the debate, I guarantee it would cause Sen. Grassley to point to it as proof that all Americans have access to medical care. If you don’t want to be treated in a circus tent, go work for the federal government.
Will
If Remote Area Medical bought billions of advertising in newspapers, TV and radio, they’d get more coverage. As it is, the pharmaceutical and medical industry ad budgets are the main things keeping our elite media alive these days.
This post brought to you by c*ialis-ism.
JK
After Sean Hannity read a quote from Ezekiel and said it meant there would be euthanasia in the new health care bill, Ann Coulter responded: “Totally ironically, Zeke Emanuel is on my death list. Hold the applause. I’m going to be on the death panel.”
h/t http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/ann-coulter-ezekiel-emanu_n_258365.html
Warren Terra
@ #4,by JK
The Palin page you linked to shows the five most recent comments. The other 2500 comments are available, but I didn’t bother to click through, because one of them, posted within 34 seconds of my visit, was this:
That is either full-metal-wingnut, reclaiming the much-derided Wolverines! battle-cry in a manner denying the very existence of irony, or it is Full. Of. Win.
Michael
Some day, somebody is going to ask why it is a good thing that health care is the single largest sector of our national economy, and why the provision of a service dominates and dwarfs manufacturing.
Think about all the stymied economic activity which could involve people making stuff that people enjoy (and actually, i have the same thoughts about the millstones hung ’round our necks by those assholes from finance).
If the wingnuts bring on the Revolution, I have a dream that I go down with my fingers around the windpipe of some fucking pundit or a Wall Street Master of the Universe, and will smile in my last moments knowing that in the utterly crushed economy that would result, doctor/banker/senior citizen/pundit meat could be prepared using any conventional pork recipe……
Calming Influence
Many of the disruptive voices at townhalls are retirees who are against any kind of liberal fascist socialist healthcare reform because they’re afraid that Obama is going to eliminate their single payer Medicare benefits.
The mind reels.
Michael
“It was just a joke”, she’ll say, tossing her bleached blande straw and giggling like a fucking hyena.
uila
Sadly, there’s all kinds of angles for the opposition to spin this. “These will be the lines that everyone will stand in with Obamacare” that kind of garbage. Not trying to troll, just trying to steel myself for the next nauseating talking point.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
60 Minutes did a piece on them. It was rerun late last year IIRC.
Montysano
@JK:
Fixed for truth. No way in hell that Palin wrote that.
gypsy howell
Why should I waste my beautiful mind on such things?
JK
@Warren Terra:
Sarah Palin has become the Pied Piper for psychopaths
Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK): ‘Death panel’ claims aren’t outrageous
h/t http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2009/08/13/coburn-death-panel-claims-arent-outrageous
gypsy howell
@Will:
If Remote Area Medical bought billions of advertising in newspapers, TV and radio, they’d get more coverage.
You’re assuming any of those fine media establishments would run the ads.
joe from Lowell
This is what Republicans mean when they say “Nobody goes without health care in America,” and “Helping people should be done with private charity.”
It is not, however, what they mean when they pretend to be concerned about people being denied health care based on their supposed economic productivity.
Brian J
I’m starting to think that President Obama should simply start calling out the opposition, in whatever form it takes. Not in a soft, calm manner, mind youm but in a pronounced, in charge, big dick swinging sort of way.
He should be touring parts of the country where stuff like this is happening. He should be highlighting the horror stories of people locked out of coverage because of the price, because of pre-existing conditions, because of screwy practices on the part of the insurance companies. He should become the benevolent despot of health care: stating loudly and clearly that he knows who and what the problems are and that they have just one more chance to become a part of the solution.
It shouldn’t end, by the way, at the Republicans simply acknowledging that there’s a problem. They need to offer actual solutions. If they don’t, he should be egging them on until they start bringing something to the table or simply go home.
Of course, if he has some knowledge that what he’s trying now is actually working, then he’s free to ignore my advice. But something tells me that we’re going to need an extra push to get over this hump.
Seebach
Maybe it takes death threats to Rahm’s family before he finally figures out they aren’t playing games. I’m wondering why the democrats still don’t get that it’s war to these people.
Brachiator
Sadly, the counter-argument will be that all these people cannot afford health care because they are too lazy or dependent on the government to work. They don’t deserve health care.
You see, because Free Market America is the bestest country in the world, anyone who doesn’t make enough money to be able to take care of themselves is a loser by definition. This message is beat home every day by Rush and his crowd, whose Christian deity is “I Got Mine” Jesus.
And while the frothing-at-the-mouths wingnuts would not send them directly to an Obama Death Panel, they don’t much care if these people slink off into a quiet corner where no “real American” need look at them, and silently pass away.
Litlebritdifrnt
I have been following a twitter link “welovethenhs” where brits are expressing their support for the NHS in the face of the republican attacks. Interestingly enough many of them have picked up on the RAM story and are pointing it out. There has also been alot of “UK is 18th in the world US is 37th” when it comes to health care despite the fact that the UK spends one third per capita on healthcare than the US does, AND has higher life expectancies.
Here is the link for anyone interested in what the Brits are twittering.
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23WeLoveTheNHS
Seebach
Ladies and gentlemen….
It begins.
A standoff between a motorist and Los Angeles police is occurring at the Federal Building in Westwood. A law enforcement source told The Times the suspect allegedly made an unspecified threat against the White House and that the U.S. Secret Service was involved.
Sloth
This is all so silly. Anyone who reads Megan McArdle knows that health insurance is readily affordable, has not increased in price all that much (except where the evile government has meddled). And they also know that market allocation is better than rationing, except that you can’t really tell the two apart.
All we have to do to understand why these people are looking for handouts of free healthcare is to find the heavy hand of the government in here…somewhere.
Seebach
WESTWOOD — The Westwood Federal Building is being evacuated after a pursuit suspect led officers on a freeway chase and then sparked a standoff in the building’s parking lot.
Officials say the chase began in Westchester shortly before 10 a.m. Initially, there were two suspects inside the vehicle, both of whom were apparently wanted on various warrants.
They’re also wanted for questioning as part of a federal inquiry. According to KTLA partner The Los Angeles Times, a law enforcement source says the suspect made an unspecified threat against the White House.
Shortly after the chase began, one of the suspects jumped out of the red Volkswagen Beetle near the intersection of the 405 Freeway and Howard Hughes Parkway.
That suspect was taken into custody.
[snip]
The LAPD bomb squad is using its robot as officers try to coax the suspect out of the vehicle. It’s also believed the device is being used to determine who is inside the car.
RSA
You’d also think that anyone hosting a town hall on health care would get a video of people waiting in line for their shot at seeing a doctor (See the Third World in action, in America) and project it on a big screen behind them, running in a continuous loop. I think it would be a good counter to the shouting protesters.
Brian J
Haven’t you noticed that nobody really pays any attention to that vile shrew any more? Maybe people will give her five seconds notice, but beyond that, nobody cares what she thinks. She’s a pathetic one-note of lies, hatred, and hysteria, and amusingly enough, she has thankfully become irrelevant. That’s a pretty big punishment for her, I imagine.
Still, if she fell down a flight of stairs, I don’t think I’d mind.
lamh31
“Man carrying “death to Obama” sign at Maryland town hall detained by Secret Service. ”
The full sign actually read: “Death To Obama, Death To Michelle And Her Two Stupid Kids”
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/08/on_the_case_1.php?ref=fpblg
gizmo
I think there is a good chance that after all the hand-wringing about opposition to healthcare reform from the Right, we’re going to end up with a bill that is so larded up with concessions to the entrenched medical industry players that ultimately the reform effort could end up getting killed by the LEFT. From what I’ve seen, the progressives in the House are pretty committed to a good bill, and show no signs of budging yet. I hope they hold fast.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
Are you trying to suggest that we inject facts into the debate? Fascist.
Brick Oven Bill
When a Central American gets seriously sick or injured, if the family has enough money, they are sent to America for emergency treatment, where care is mandatory, and free. This I know.
This is one reason why it costs me $180 to get an immunization, as these costs are passed on to those who play by the rules.
In contrast, if an American gets sick in Mexico, I have on good account that they have to pay cash before being released from the hospital.
Public health benefits should be denied to non-Citizens. Universal health care for illegal immigrants will quickly overwhelm our system. When care becomes rationed for Americans over 40, and is provided free for young illegal immigrants, this will make certain groups uneasy.
Martin
Obama should take advantage of the opportunity and do a townhall at the RAM event. Just the people that get in and need care, plus the staff. It’ll take time away from treatment, but I bet that kind of exposure would get other volunteers from the area to make up for it.
Michael
Oh, fuck me.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2315313/posts
I have literally had it. Sadly, we didn’t capitulate to the Soviets back when – if we had, the world would have to be a better place today.
We’ve been given over to a fucking goon-run apocalyptic bronze age death cult, created from the oral traditions of semiliterate nomadic goatherds that has long outlived any usefulness which it may have at one time marginally had.
lotus
MUST-read at HufPo:
Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma
Both sides denying it.
Ole
So you’re kind’a like Orbis should stop doing that Asian thing and maybe stop by LAX some time soon?
http://orbis.org/blindness.aspx?lang=1
Indylib
@Montysano: Agreed. Palin couldn’t read that, no less write it. I think there’s a reason this crap is showing up on her facebook instead of her trying to go out and say it in front of a camera.
Michael
My ass. It costs $180 to get an immunization because your doc’s 16 year old needs a brand new H3, and his 3rd wife needs a new set of boobs, and 3 of his last land purchases crapped out. On top of that he has to pay an insurance clerk (or several) to keep hitting up the insurer for reimbursement, because the insurance company is busy spending money on bonuses for multimillion dollar paid executives (who don’t provide medical services at all), all so said execs can install gold toilets in their Gulfstream IVs.
Fuck you, conservative*spit*.
b-psycho
@lamh31: …m’kay, what’s his problem with Michelle & the kids?
NickM
Why would the media discuss anything that doesn’t involve screaming nincompoops?
jenniebee
Well RAM is the Katy Abrams plan for how the Founding Fathers intended us to get health care, doncha know. Now if only more people would just pitch in and help for a week for free, Katy would be happy to let them go about doing it so long as they leave her alone and don’t intrude on her consciousness while she’s listening to Glen Beck. See? Problem solved! (And if people could blow more rainbows out of their asses instead of methane, we could tackle global warming, too, without all those confusing “programs” that Katy doesn’t understand).
I’m a little more ticked about that than I was yesterday. Lawrence O’Donnell should have asked her what she does to help the uninsured when she said that that was what the Founding Fathers intended. Charity begins at home.
I’m even more upset that he ran out of time before he asked for her advice on restoring the 3/5 rule, as the Founding Fathers intended, because that’s always my favorite question for people who begin the “Founding Fathers” song and dance.
NickM
@jenniebee: I watched that interview. What an annoying person Ms. Abrams seems to be. She doesn’t know her household income because her husband takes care of that stuff. She wasn’t interested in the Iraq War because she was busy getting married and having kids. But we’re to believe she woke up one day concerned that the Founders’ vision of the Constitution was being subverted.
Seebach
But we’re to believe she woke up one day concerned that the Founders’ vision of the Constitution was being subverted.
And I’m sure race had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Demo Woman
Any news about Krista and the baby yet?
Makewi
I’m sure the approaching 1.3 million illegal immigrants in Los Angeles County have nothing to do with this very touching story meant to illustrate how broken our system is.
I suggest you just yell something along the lines of there’s no such thing as an illegal immigrant in order stay on the approved path.
kay
Bravo, John Cole. Great post.
I think it would be so helpful to talk about actual health care delivery when we’re debating theoretical health care delivery.
I don’t think it’s just me, either. This won’t be boring for media. I promise. They can do those man on the street things they love so much, with real sick people! I think it has ad revenue potential, I really do. They gotta be tired of the crazy signs, right?
joes527
@b-psycho:
They are black too.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Martin:
Should be easy enough to organize, since clearly all of those people (probably illegal immigrants) were bussed in by ACORN thugs anyway.
Thankfully, I’m sure that Truth Squads have already been dispatched to check their countertops and birth certificates.
Seebach
KTLA News reports that as of 1:00pm PST, not much has changed in the standoff. The suspect is still in the car. LAPD has brought in an armored car, and positioned it near the suspect’s car.
KTLA reports that LAPD have “had their weapons drawn for more than two hours.”
KTLA also reports they are hearing that the suspect “has made threats to the VA Building here in Los Angeles.” They are “working to confirm that right now.”
Lieutenant Robert Rooney with LAPD is being interviewed on the scene by KTLA. He says the man in the car “was the subject of an investigation with several agencies involved. Earlier today he was spotted in his vehicle and officers attempted to stop the vehicle using red lights and sirens and he failed to stop. He ultimately drove here to the parking lot of the Federal Building. He is presently in the vehicle. The windows are closed, and he is refusing to communicate or leave the vehicle.” Rooney says they attempted to get a phone into the car, but the suspect refused it.
When asked whether they have any indication of whether there is a weapon or bomb in the vehicle, Rooney said, “I won’t go into that, and quite frankly, if there was then I would go ahead and err of the side of prudence judgment.”
Michael
Katy needs to have her kids get cholera, or eat tainted food, or drink some melamine laced milk. Maybe the vile bitch could have had them play with toxic toys, or could get run over when an unsafe vehicle lost control.
I’ve yet to see a fucking Conservative*spit* offer up a solution to any issue.
The Grand Panjandrum AKA Americans for America
@jenniebee: Aren’t these the very same people who scoff at the ancestor worship of other cultures, and consider divine right and kingship to be Un-America?. The teabaggers and wingnuts are guilty of that very same fetish when it is tied to something one of our Founding Fathers said or wrote. Jesus!
tripletee (formerly tBone)
Jesus Christ, I included the illegal immigrants thing as a joke, and @Makewi was already positing it as a serious theory before I hit Submit.
Bravo, sir: you are unspoofable.
Brian J
I’m watching a repeat of last week’s “Real Time with Bill Maher.” The number of lies being told by Jack Kingston and Darrell Issa is astonishing. We have no plan in place to control costs? Just what the fuck do you call the attempts to change the incentive structure for Medicare, you asshole? Grrrrrrrrrrrr, these idiots make me angry.
Makewi
If you get prostate cancer in the UK the fatality rate is 57%, and the fatality rate for breast cancer is 46%. Those numbers are 19% and 25% under our broken system.
U.K.’s heart-attack fatality rate is almost 20% higher than America’s.
In U.K., 20% of potentially curable lung-cancer patients became incurable on the waiting list.
I can understand why so many of you want to focus on the greedy insurance companies and the greedy doctors, because comparing the actual care isn’t much of a winning proposition.
kay
@Michael:
“Katy needs to have her kids get cholera, or eat tainted food, or drink some melamine laced milk. Maybe the vile bitch could have had them play with toxic toys, or could get run over when an unsafe vehicle lost control.”
Actually, if Katy is a stay at home parent, and intends to remain one, Katy is just one spouse away from not having health insurance. She’s 35 now, but she won’t stay 35, and it’s more difficult to get coverage at 50, and with all those years out of the paid workforce, well, she’s going to be sweating. We don’t force people to stay married any more, so that particular risk is not in her control.
It’s really common. Stay at home mothers who want (or don’t want, but are getting) a divorce are some of the sadder people I see in my practice. We talk about health insurance. Most of them never considered themselves vulnerable. But they are.
SenyorDave
“It was just a joke”, she’ll say, tossing her bleached blande straw and giggling like a fucking hyena.
I see a serious error in your post. You used “she”, which is obviously an incorrect pronoun. “It” would be more appropriate.
Makewi
@tripletee (formerly tBone):
Yeah, well if you joke about it then you know it isn’t true. I’m sure that the recent moves by LA County to reduce available health care to illegals in the publicity funded hospitals is NOT a factor.
This is the real world, you might want to consider joining it sometime.
Olly McPherson
Nice cherry-picking, Makewi. Everyone here is surely convinced.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Makewi:
And the UK is ranked 18th in the world for healthcare by the WHO and the US is ranked 37th, life expectancy is longer in the UK than the US. The US ranks behind some 3rd world nations in infant mortality. The UK spends 1/3 per capita than the US does with better results. Two can play at that game bub.
Brachiator
@Brick Oven Bill:
Finally. After all these posts, something we can agree on. I am with you all the way that public health benefits should be denied non-citizens, as long as we make if a federal crime punishable by 5 years in prison and a $100,00 fine per violation for anyone to employ a non-citizen unless (free market, biatches) they pay for health insurance for that individual and his dependents, whether the dependents live in the US or in a foreign country.
You see, I have this little thing about people who complain about the impact of illegal immigration on this country without recognizing that the vast majority come here for jobs, and that many are exploited by employers who are eager to use them, but not so eager to pay an honest wage or benefits.
Makewi
Here is another touching story, which in no way points to what I was saying.
@Olly McPherson
You call it cherry picking, I call it a larger body count due to the inevitable outcome of thinking the government is your mother.
Olly McPherson
Sadly No deals with the same specious death rate comparisons, with Canada as a stand-in for the U.S.
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/23404.html
Not to mention that everyone is covered and at less cost.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@Makewi: You gotta bring more game than that to this comment section. At least BOB amuses us once in a while and we have sort of adopted him.
RSA
Yes, it’s always good to look at representative numbers. So, I wonder how much longer people live in the U.S. than they do in the U.K., given the superiority of our health system? Oh…
ominira
@Makewi: I suggest you ask yourself why the underinsured are lining up along with the uninsured. The last Remote Area Medical event (in Virginia?) featured in a video on this site interviewed one person with a tooth that needed to be pulled who clearly had some health insurance but couldn’t afford to pay the deductible. In other words it was pretty much useless to him.
latts
@joe from Lowell:
Yeah, I can’t get any traction in noting that in America we beg for strangers’ spare change to pay for healthcare, as anyone who visits convenience stores knows… must be some incredible rugged individualism, huh?
But you’re right– tossing out a few coins makes people feel better than paying taxes does even though it’s far less effective, and this country’s grand moral imperative seems to be making the haves feel good about themselves. On bad days I even wonder if casting off monarchy was even a good idea; at least it was a somewhat more honest, if crude, system than the self-serving delusions we breed here.
RememberNovember
@gypsy howell:
Hah! Paul Giammatti FTW!
Makewi
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Have you looked at the criteria for how the WHO makes it’s rankings? Fully 2/3rds is based on the equity of availability of care. So as long as everyone is equally receiving poorer care, the ranking will be higher.
I guess you just intend to ignore the mortality rates I put up.
Mayur
@Makewi: Wrong.
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/prostate/survival/
Eff off, troll.
uila
@kay: It’s a pretty neat trick how the haves get the have-nots to make their case for them. A little class consciousness would go a long way in this country. I suppose that’s why it’s one of the truly forbidden topics of discussion in mainstream discourse.
Makewi
@Olly McPherson:
That’s fantastic. So as long as you don’t get sick enough to die, you will live longer. Brilliant.
Leelee for Obama
@Seebach:
[And I’m sure race had absolutely nothing to do with it.]
Perish the thought. Seebach, how could you say that about such a concerned troll?
Bender
Just when you thought that it couldn’t get worse for ObamaCare, it gets worse for ObamaCare. Blue-on-blue, even…
Tax Analyst
John, the L.A. Times did have a front page article about the Remote Area Medical event here in L.A. I think it was in Wednesday’s paper, but the reporter didn’t make much of an effort to link that to the Health Care Reform situation, although a few of the quotes from care recipients DID make the linkage. The Times also had an Editorial that day that DID mention the two situations and the need for reform, although the measures they ended up supporting were kind of weak in my opinion. At least the editorial put 2+2 together and came up with something close to “4” for an answer.
Small progress.
Cyrus
@Seebach: What are you talking about? That isn’t the beginning of anything. Scott Roeder was the first, followed by that 88-year-old Nazi.
Leelee for Obama
OT, sort of. I was listening to some guy, Ron Kessler?, last night. Has a new book about the Secret Service with all kinds of dire crap about lack of training, practice, weapons, numbers and the threat level against Obama up 400% over Dim Son. Since SS operates under the first rule of Fight Club, I’m guessing this is all some clever trap to fool the wingnuts and militias into thinking they will have an easy target. Thoughts?
RememberNovember
@JK:
I don’t know who’s the more stupid and paranoid Sara or her cheerleading squad…Palin has a persecution complex…maybe those ethics violation complaints have something to do with it?
Ye gods, the stupid, it burns!
JK
Fla. doctor fired over ‘doughnuts equal death’ sign
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20090813/us-doughnut-doctor
Shawn in ShowMe
You gotta love it. Let’s disregard the statistics from the World Health Organization and go with the assertions of a conservative think tank. That’s like Rush Limbaugh trying to school a climatologist on global warming.
Michael
I keep asking fucking Conservatives*spit* to address the problem of a 50 year old on the individual insurance market. To a man, they shrug their shoulders and say “well, what’re you going to do?”.
They have no solution, nor do they care.
What a bunch of mentally and physically lazy greedy parasitic misanthropes.
Screw them, screw their country clubs/churches that suck up charitable deductions. Screw their beloved*spit* symbols, their fake ass bogus sense of morality. Screw their sense of entitlement to rule and their worship of worthless, thieving, slave raping ancestors.
Zifnab
@Makewi:
With treatment. Without treatment, I believe the mortality rate is much higher. Never mind the fact that giving universal health insurance won’t decrease those rates in the slightest.
I fail to see how this is proof of anything except, “If you’re rich and you get cancer, do it in the states!”
kay
@Michael:
It’s painful to bring up. I have to sort of brace myself, because they simply didn’t consider it.
They ask if they can “stay on” the spouse’s employer’s policy, and that just makes me sad.
Yeah. That’s happening. Onward.
Then we have the ridiculous and fruitless COBRA conversation, where I sometimes use a calculator, although I know this budget won’t work, then we calculate years to Medicare, with some gallows humor.
JB
“Duh, if we have RAM, we don’t need to reform healthcare – everyone can be treated for free! And get a pony!”
So you’ve this argument too? Many right wingers see two classes of Americans: those with what they think is adequate health insurance (themselves) and the destitute. And the destitute have “generous” Medicaid benefits or the equivalent, so why change anything? It’s like saying nobody can conceiveably go hungry in the USA because food banks exist. Or the Salvation Army takes care of the homeless; those who still remain homeless are just scamming the honest taxpayer.
R. Neibuhr wrote: “The moral attitudes of dominant or privileged groups are characterised by universal self-deception and hypocrisy. … Since inequalities of privilege are greater than could possibly be defended rationally, the intelligence of privileged groups is usually applied to the task of inventing specious proofs for the theory that universal values spring from, and that general interests are served by, the special privilges which they hold. The most common form of hypocrisy among the privileged classes is to assume that their privileges are the just payments with which society rewards specially useful or meritorious functions.” Moral Man and Immoral Society.
JB
Sorry, should be “So you’ve heard this argument too?”
Zifnab
@Michael:
Wait, this 50 year old has two kids and doesn’t have a full time job or a spouse? Sounds like a case of personal responsibility to me.
Might I suggest tax cuts?
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Makewi:
Oh, I’m sure it’s a factor, Chuckles. I just think it’s funny that you were predictable enough to wave off all of those thousands of people because some of them might have been illegals.
Maybe in your next post you could slip in a reference to ACORN in between the cherry-picked statistics, gross distortions and outright bullshit? You know, just for me.
Demo Woman
Makewi, does not seem to respond to people who have an accurate chart. He/She just hopes to preach to choir.
There was a study on the value of mammograms and because of that study NHS did not recommend yearly mammograms, their breast cancer rates of survival did rise. They are now encouraging more mammograms to lower that rate.
Of course Cuba’s rate of survival from breast cancer is higher than ours, so I guess he/she could have used that.
One of our concerns is diabetes. Maybe one of the trolls would be happy to research how other countries compare to us.
Makewi
@Mayur:
Yeah, it turns out you are right on that one. I trusted a lazy journalist who just repeated a proven false figure from a politician. The actual survival rates are 98% in the US and 74% in the UK. Apologies for the bad numbers.
Robertdsc-iphone
Too bad the White House & Senate Finance Committee can’t take a fact-finding trip out here to LA & see what their conspiracy won’t address.
A pox on both their camps.
ironranger
I think about the millions of people walking around sick with who knows what kinds of contagious illnesses who aren’t going to a clinic because they can’t afford it. I’m glad I don’t have kids in school anymore to worry what they are going to catch there. I’d feel a lot better if everyone was covered for that reason alone.
Makewi
@Zifnab:
You’re logic doesn’t add up. Because we have poor people here in the states, and we still have a lower mortality rate.
However, it is not a bad idea to be rich if you get sick – no matter where you live. Connected is good too. You are deluding yourself if you think those 2 factors don’t matter regardless of where you are.
Shawn in ShowMe
@Zifnab
http://www.usw.org/media_center/news_articles?id=0364
Breast cancer does claim more lives, proportionally, in the U.K. than in the U.S., but no where near the difference some claim, according to the 2002 database run by the World Health Organisation’s cancer advisers. For example, 19.2 of every 100,000 Americans die of breast cancer disease, compared to 24 percent in Britain. With heart attacks, 40 percent of Britons who suffer one die from it compared to 38 percent in the States.
Makewi
I’ve said it before, but I would like everyone to have access to health care AND I would like to keep the highest rate of innovation and responsiveness that we enjoy. Putting the government in charge doesn’t seem to me like the way to accomplish that.
Leelee for Obama
@ironranger: Hence “to promote the general welfare” as was discussed somewhere yesterday. Lord knows we are aware as parents and grandparents that school is a hotbed of contagion.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Makewi:
No, clearly we should leave it to the private insurance industry and medical establishment. Maybe if we all wish real hard they’ll give everyone access to health care. And a pony.
Michael
Spare us the concern trollery, you lazy assed fucking sycophantic liar.
Give us a specific, and understand that you’ll have to do better than sputter “tort reform”, “tax cuts” or “crossing state lines”. You’re also going to have to address why you think its good that medical treatment is the largest single sector of the economy, and are going to have to justify to me exactly why medical and insurance executives shouldn’t be hunted down and fed slowly to the pigs, like in “Deadwood”.
It isn’t like they actually produce anything.
kay
The faux health care debate has helped me make one decision. I’m going to cancel cable television, because I simply refuse to pay for what I consider unpatriotic levels of stupidity.
If cable channels want to destroy any pretense of “intelligent debate”, in a blatant and obvious manner that can’t be anything but deliberate, and they have, they can do it without my 40 bucks a month.
joes527
In related news, it looks like Sarah Palin has saved us from the death panels.
Some days I hate the Democrats even more than the Republicans.
ironranger
@Leelee for Obama:
The hotbeds of contagion will just get hotter as more people lose their health insurance and the deductibles keep climbing for those who have some kind of insurance.
I love the argument from people that they like their insurance & want to keep it, thank you very much. They haven’t even considered that the odds that their insurance cost will stay just as it is now is highly unlikely or that their company will decide it can’t afford to continue to provide it for employees anymore or they get hit by a truck, become paralyzed for life, & their health insurance won’t even begin to cover what they need.
Guess that stuff happens to other people who didn’t plan right.
Makewi
@tripletee (formerly tBone):
I see, I waved them all off did I? Easier to just imagine evil motivations from others who disagree than to take whole I guess.
Makewi
@Michael:
Your kind of a scary dude. Good luck with that.
Michael
Chickenshit. You won’t do it because you can’t do it.
oh really
More proof that this country — socialist haven that it is — has the best health care system in the world. Just think, even all those lazy, good for nothing freeloaders can get free health care as long as they are willing to give up taking drugs, getting drunk, or hanging out long enough to stand in line for hours. This kind of health care should be against the law — it just encourages people to drop private insurance, stop working, and bleed the productive class dry. It’s absolutely criminal.
There’s no way a place like the UK would ever let any of these people get free health care. Why, if Stephen Hawking weren’t one of the best known physicists in the world, they would have euthanized him decades ago. He recently admitted as much.
We do need health care reform in the US. Health insurance should be abolished. Every American should be required to pay for all services out of pocket. Insurance is just a way to encourage people to eat too much, drink too much, and not exercise. Given that kind of reform, in a generation we would be the healthiest country in the world (with a much smaller population, too).
And it’s time to make people pay full price for prescription drugs. First, we need to outlaw generics, they are just one more way for parasites to get something for nothing. Then, we need to abolish the FDA, which just slows down the development and production of the next generation of me-too drugs that we so desperately need. Once drugs no longer need to be tested for safety and efficacy, their prices will fall precipitously, since the pharmaceutical companies will save so much money — money that would be much better spent on marketing. And finally, we need tort reform. Lawsuits against doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical companies should be eliminated entirely. Freed from the fear of being sued, doctors will be able to experiment with treatments on uninformed patients (it’s better they don’t know anything, then the “trials” will be more valid). Soon, brand new therapies will be developed, some of which will be prohibitively expensive, but others will be cheap, reflecting their lack of therapeutic value, but providing every health care consumer with affordable options.
Yes, we need reform. And these are just a few of the things we could start doing immediately to help bring our idiotic system under control.
Leelee for Obama
@ironranger: Yeah, it’s the typical I got mine, what’s wrong with you? I thought this time would be different because the economy is so in the crapper, but no, sadly, they still have theirs, SO FAR! I feel the same way about people who don’t vaccinate their kids and then bring them into contact with kids too young to be vaccinated yet. I understand the decision for them, how dare they make that decision for someone else. Especially w/o letting them know? The rugged individualist meme is real old now. And personal liberty isn’t supposed to hurt anyone else. Or did I read the Constitution wrong?
Blue Raven
@SenyorDave:
Spare me the transphobic bullshit, Dave. Even if Anne is a transwoman, *she* deserves to be addressed with the pronoun *she* identifies with.
Something Fabulous
@tripletee (formerly tBone):
I’m still kinda new here, but I have to say I don’t get this “Makewi” person’s approach– visiting and posting on a site where one can expect widely differing views than one holds, yet the intention is clearly not to convince, or the tone would not be so hostile. Equally, though, clearly not to just mock the opinions many of the other readers likely hold, or the posts would be funnier, yes?
This oddly supercilious debunking method, does it work, at all?
Makewi
@Michael:
Well, I realize that love poems like :
probably work really well with the drunk roofied folks that you hang out with, but I honestly find that sort of lead in a turn off. But if it helps, you can believe that it’s not you, it’s me.
kay
@joes527:
Can you imagine? Twenty years of good public policy undone by the idiot Right in a week.
I hope they’ve sufficiently frightened the followers, who will not write advanced directives, leaving a probate judge to determine their end of life care.
Unless they’re Schiavo, in which case religious zealots in Congress can turn your life into an “event”.
demimondian
@Something Fabulous: Welcome to Balloon Juice. We have a long and storied tradition of trolling here , of which Makewi is clearly an example. No, he’s not trying to convince anyone; he’s making fun of people — although, as you say, he’s not doing a very good job of it.
One thing you need to realize is that at least some of the people who are “responding” to him are no more interested in refuting him than he is in refuting them; they’re just arguing for argument’s sake. Under the circumstances, such discussions become arguments as performance art, in which the participants get to experiment with different forms of refutation and support for positions that they hold…or, possibly, do not hold.
Another thing you need to realize is that Makewi may be one of our own (left-wing) saboteurs.: members of the left who take occasional potshots at our common beliefs with the hope of deflating some of our groupthink. Whether he’s a real troll or a spoof troll, that’s a valuable contribution to the discussion.
Makewi
@Something Fabulous:
Supercilious is a good word choice. I’m just trying to fit in, but with a little less swearing, not as much anger and not quite as much demonizing.
NickM
“So as long as you don’t get sick enough to die, you will live longer. Brilliant.”
Isn’t avoiding getting sick enough to die so that you live longer kind of the point of medicine?
ironranger
@Leelee for Obama:
Yeah, it makes me wonder how bad it has to get before people realize we are all in this together & they are not immune. Lack of imagination or is it an inability to walk in someone else’s, millions of someone else’s, shoes? I don’t hear any conservative ask how much it is going to cost us if we don’t change our health care system from the monopoly of privateer insurance companies. I think it will sink this country.
I’ve always liked this saying & think it is just plain common sense, everybody does better when everybody does better.
demimondian
@Blue Raven: Ummm…yeah.
Unless she is competing in an event where the inevitable consequences of testosterone poisoning will affect her, she deserves to be referred to by the appropriate personal pronoun.
Makewi
Wow. I mean, its Rasmussen, but the GOP trusted more on health care issues than the Dems. A 10 point swing since June?
This is stunning. I never, ever thought I’d see the day where the GOP would be eating the Dems lunch over health care. It’s shocking is what it is.
Major fail on the Dem leadership. I guess it’s really NO YOU WON’T.
demimondian
@Makewi: No, not really. You’re really a pretty poor-grade troll, but we’ve been so depleted recently that even a low-quality fool like you is better than no fool at all.
Makewi
@NickM:
Why do you hate the sick? Are you seriously blaming children for getting cancer?
Have you no decency sir, no sense of decorum or respect?
NickM
“Have you no decency sir, no sense of decorum or respect?”
Merely pointing out a tautology.
Makewi
@NickM:
Sadly, you are in error. Medicine has 2 purposes, to help keep healthy people healthy (which you got) and to care for those that are sick. As it happens, a fairly large number of people end up having to see doctors over that second one.
kay
@Makewi:
Phony. I’ll say it again. The difference between you and the rest of the people who post here is, they’re honest.
You’re a rabid little GOP’er, and I’ll bet you were proud of it until it became less popular.
I have a question. What happened to the Threat Of Islamic Terrorism in the Homeland?
I can’t figure it out. Republicans (like you) ignored it completely until September 11th, and then spent 8 years milking it. Now it seems to have disappeared again.
I actually knew it was political nonsense on the part of Serious Conservatives, but aren’t you embarrassed to be so transparently venal?
Makewi
@demimondian:
Jesus says that calling someone a fool is mean. I’m paraphrasing of course.
oh really
It’s a complete waste of time discussing the pros and cons of the United Kingdom’s health care system, since that kind of system is not being recommended or considered for adoption in this country by anyone I know of.
It doesn’t make any difference to us if the mortality rate for a given disease is 0%, 50%, or 99.99% in the UK since we aren’t going to go to that kind of system anytime in the next, say, billion years.
It is also fairly stupid to assume that outcomes in this country would mirror those in other countries under a universal single payer system, since even with cost savings we would still be likely to continue to spend significantly more per capita than other countries do and we have a very different society. There is so much waste in our current system that we could save many billions of dollars every year and still spend a lot more than Canada does per patient.
Tax Analyst
@ Something Fabulous:
I think John Cole used to have something on his Page Banner about “Hot Air” and something-or-other that sort of capsulized part of what the site is about. I think it had something to do with “banter”, but I’ve been wrong before, I think – maybe once or twice.
Makewi
@kay:
That was rather like the written equivalent of a monkey flinging his poo because he is agitated over something. If it helps you to believe all of those things, which really could just be grunted out as US GOOD, YOU BAD, then by all means continue to believe them.
I am not a GOPer, as you put it, rabid or otherwise. I’m also not a Democrat. I used to consider myself both at different times in my life, but as it happens I find them both horribly distasteful. It has nothing to do with how popular one or the other is.
I am a bit curious though, are you saying that the threat of Islamic terrorism is a bit of a fantasy, like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus?
Gex
@kay: Excellent point. This woman who has no idea what their family finances are is not doing herself any favors. The stats pretty much give her a coin flip’s chance of keeping that hubby and income. Should he leave, who’s to say he doesn’t hide the bulk of their assets and leave her nothing?
That’s one thing I don’t understand about conservative ideas for women’s roles. Even if I bought into it, I’d stop as soon as I had a daughter. Get an education. Get job experience. Be able to be independent. Oh, and don’t go on Hardball to say stupid shit and humiliate yourself.
Makewi
@oh really:
Wait, are you saying that the argument that we spend x% more of our GDP than country Z on health care is a total bullshit argument. Because I’m pretty sure those are fighting words.
The UK comparison has to do with continuing the theme that started with the crappy Stephen Hawking gambit.
Brachiator
@Makewi:
You really need to do better than cherry pick and misunderstand the data. You pick on the UK as though it is the only country that has national health care, and then try to show that US health outcomes are better.
This is Michael Moore stuff.
And then you obviously don’t consider other factors. For example, Japan has a higher life expectancy than the US even though there are still large numbers of smokers in Japan. This kind of thing makes experts pause, and they try to isolate other contributing factors, but you insist on jumping in with both feet and hands.
demimondian
@Makewi: Jesus says that calling your fellow man a fool is evil.
Whatever your gender, you don’t count.
demimondian
@Makewi: Jesus says that calling your fellow man a fool is evil. I’ve always taken that to mean one shouldn’t call anyone who has any claim to personhood a fool.
You don’t count.
kay
@Makewi:
I don’t believe you. I read your posts. Carry on.
Makewi
@Brachiator:
Actually, I pointed out yesterday that Japan, Taiwan and Germany were the ones you want to discuss when it came to nationalized health care plans. The longevity discussion is a bit trickier, because it tends to involve areas of discussion that are fights in and of themselves here in the States.
I’m willing to discuss it with you, if you want.
One other thing, and I don’t mean to pick on you about it, but it isn’t cherry picking just because a) you don’t like the figures being presented, or b) you don’t include every other possible figure that could even be considered. Those figures are not things to just pretend don’t exist.
Tax Analyst
Re: I think it had something to do with “banter”, but I’ve been wrong before, I think – maybe once or twice.
“ill-informed banter”. I’m pretty sure that was it.
“Hot-air and ill-informed banter”.
yeah.
kay
@Makewi:
“I used to consider myself both at different times in my life, but as it happens I find them both horribly distasteful. It has nothing to do with how popular one or the other is.”
Of course not. You’re a free-thinking maverick who bows to no man.
I knew you’d bite on the terrorism question, incidentally. All Republicans do.
LanceThruster
The basic attitude of my co-workers who are against universal coverage is, “Screw ‘em. I’ve got mine.”
It’s very sad. One is even an administrator in the dental school. When she said it was going to cost us a lot more to bring all the deadbeats on board and lower our quality of care, I said we already pay for the uninsured one way or another and the quality provided by for-profit insurers is a worldwide embarrassment; replete with one horror story after another.
I compared the health insurance industry with the crooks she was complaining about this morning. Seem she found the insurance she got on her cell phone was worthless after it broke. They blamed it on her and denied the claim. I said health claims reps operate in a similar fashion.
Makewi
@demimondian:
I assure you that not only do I have a specific gender, recognized as valid by the AMA, I am also a person in all ways that one may be considered one.
@kay
We all have our crosses to bear. Maybe you have trust issues? You sound hot, maybe you just haven’t met the right person. Are you seeing anyone?
kay
@LanceThruster:
Well, she’ll have to lose the coverage, or it will become unaffordable, or get really sick and max out, or lose her job.
And then she’ll know, but she still won’t make any connection between herself and those deadbeats, so really it won’t matter.
They’re losers and she’s fabulous and invulnerable. It’s different.
Makewi
@kay:
Oh was there a question there about terrorism, because it read to me like “why are you such a cock?”, and so I didn’t think you were serious.
I know you find me attractive, which is why you keep calling me a Republican. So what do you say baby, want to make the sexy time?
kay
@Makewi:
Nah. You’re dishonest. Paul L is another rabid Republican who comments here. He’s honest, though. Wrong, but honest.
demimondian
@Makewi: I’m sure you’d like me to believe that you possess personhood. Feel free to continue pretending.
Makewi
@kay:
I’m having this fantasy where you are being all dominatrixy and demanding to know if “I am now, or have I ever been a member of the Republican party”, and I have to tell you it’s super hot.
C’mon sweets lets go crazy and afterwords we can make fun of poor people.
Makewi
@demimondian:
You know, I’m very close to just not liking you.
demimondian
@Makewi: Um….schnookums? An “afterword” is a postscript. The word can’t be used as an adjective.
demimondian
@Makewi: I understand, truly, I do. Here you come into a place, expecting to be able to cause trouble with your superior wit and supercilious attitude, assuming that you’ll be able to outclass all the competition. It must really sting to learn that you aren’t even in second place to one of the minor trolls who hang out here on a regular basis.
Sucks to be you, eh?
Makewi
@demimondian:
That probably makes sense in crazy town, where people aren’t persons and they have no idea that “lets go crazy” can actually refer to an action allowing use of a postscript to identify actions to follow.
Stop trying to steal my affections from kay. I’m just not that into you.
Makewi
@demimondian:
No, in fact it is truly awesome to be me. I’d get into the details but I’d be accused of bragging.
demimondian
@Makewi: Poor, poor thing. You really are pathetic and sad.
demimondian
@Makewi: It’s unfortunate that there are no medications to help with your problem, but narcissistic personality disorders can usually be mitigated through talk therapy.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Something Fabulous:
Makewi is fairly new here too (or at least this persona is – like Demi says, it can be difficult to distinguish genuine trolls from the spoof troll subgenus). He/she apparently fails to understand that we have a social contract for trolls here at Balloon Juice: you have to be incredibly inflammatory, batshit crazy, entertaining, or some combination of all three. Makewi fails on all counts, particularly the last.
The only sensible course of action is to point and laugh, in the hope that it will inspire Makewi to up his/her game. From what we’ve seen so far, though, I’m not optimistic.
Makewi
@demimondian:
Oh, I self medicate.
demimondian
@Makewi: That doesn’t surprise me. It’s quite characteristic of people with severe personality disorders. Still, as I suggested, it’s unlikely that there’s a pharmaceutical treatment for you; you’re going to need to challenge yourself to develop more appropriate social skills and a more accurate self image.
Something Fabulous
Thanks, all, for the handy field guide. Most welcoming and kind! I feel all enabled and up to speed. Kinda.
Makewi
@tripletee (formerly tBone):
You really need to get together before making these pronouncements, because demimsomethingorother seems to think i’m batshit crazy and sweet, sweet kay is definitely inflamed.
And the only one pointing and laughing is me, at the major and epic fail over this so called health care reform.
Skepticat
If you get prostate cancer in the UK the fatality rate is 57%, and the fatality rate for breast cancer is 46%. Those numbers are 19% and 25% under our broken system.
According to their government statistics, in the UK during 2001-2007, prostate cancer survival five years after diagnosis was 77.0 per cent. Breast cancer survival at five years among women diagnosed during 2001-2006 was 82.0 per cent. That makes those mortality rates 23% and 18%.
Fulcanelli
GOP trolls and activists love to puke up their shop worn nonsense about how “Government isn’t your mommy”.
OK, then why is it GOP politicians devote their careers to helping Big Business, Defense Contractors and all the rest suck the government teat dry at the expense of the taxpaying public. The same taxpaying public that supplies the money that flows from that government teat.
Corporate welfare good.
Public welfare bad.
At least with the Democrats, we get to suck on a a titty once in a while.
jcricket
@Fulcanelli:
I see Obama’s next campaign slogan.
Makewi
At least with the Democrats, we get to suck on a a titty once in a while.
No, they tell you that you will get to suck titty, you believe them and then when reality presents itself those titties turn out to be rocks. So Obama’s next campaign slogan will be, the more correct “Suck rocks”.
kay
@jcricket:
“Conservative groups, confident that any real public option on health care is toast, are moving on to the “co-ops” proposed in the Senate bill, calling it a back door public option. From CongressDaily’s Carrie Dann: “Opponents of healthcare reform are aiming to kill a delicately negotiated compromise on a nonprofit insurance plan before its final version is released after the recess.
“Some conservative groups are instructing their members that nonprofit healthcare co-ops, first proposed by Senate Budget Chairman Kent Conrad, are synonymous with the government-administered public option opposed by Republicans. Conrad is among the “Gang of Six” healthcare negotiators on the Finance Committee, which has yet to release its draft.”
Here’s shocking news. The Republicans are getting ready to screw their good friends, the moderate Democrats in the Senate.
Grassley is backing off the Senate bill because he never had any intention of negotiating in good faith. The GOP just needed him in there to kill the public option.
They aren’t going to be able to regulate insurance companies at all, now.
They own Congress, and Congress just proved it to them.
Makewi
The Democrats own both houses of the legislature and the executive branch, and you still can’t stop from pointing the finger at the GOP as the source of your woes.
This leadership thing is harder than it looks I guess.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Makewi:
Hey, sometimes demi and I disagree on how to classify trolls here. It’s not a fucking echo chamber, dude.
faith
We are so afraid of change, and that is how our government would like to keep us. We are run by our government, they hold the keys…we use to be a government for the people by the people. The government learned that they could scare us, and it is true, about the house divided, it will be fall.
Insurance companies and drug companies here in America, have bought and paid for your voice in this government. Do your own reach and find out just how many politicians have received a bonus, or some kind of compensation from either an insurance company or a drug company.
When you take the time, rather then just listen to people shout their opinions, you will discover that we Americans are being sold and bought daily by our politicians. The people we voted in to represent us. Money talks folks.
You want to call universal health care socialized medicine, or socialism. You don’t want to hear any thing from the politicians who are trying to move us away from the grip that the insurance companies have on us.
Instead of fighting and arguing at the town hall meetings, and showing your lack of understanding, your fear, why don’t you try listening and see what you can learn, like you have a form of intelligence and that you are not afraid to hear something new. Maybe our politician would soon discover that we do have power, and that we are not radical people who can not make our own choices, that the politician should make the decisions for us, especially when they are already bought by the insurance and drugs companies.
Keep your cool and get you voice heard reasonably by the politicians that represent you.
Brachiator
@Makewi:
Or the Scandinavian countries, or France, or Australia.
For the health-care scare to really work, a person who believes that the USA is best has to show that the US semi- free market model is superior to that of every country with a nationalized or universal health care.
The “gummint never works” feint is interesting, but insufficient.
Not really worthwhile since it touches on issues that are irrelevant to a health care system.
I was pretty clear that my objections have nothing to do with what I like, but with the fact that issues surrounding prostate cancer, for example, are larger than what’s the best health care system.
For example, you gotta die of something, and prostate cancer is an old man’s disease. It could be that a health care system that screens out other negative outcomes and more accurately diagnoses prostate cancer leaves you with unavoidable ailments. But my wild speculations aside, here is some background:
Over the last 30 years prostate cancer rates in Great Britain have almost tripled, although much of the increase is due to increased detection through widespread use of the PSA test.
Almost 60% of prostate cancer cases are diagnosed in men aged over 70 years.
Around 300,000 new cases of prostate cancer are diagnosed in Europe each year. The lowest rates are in Southern and Eastern Europe and the highest rates are in Scandinavia and Northern Europe.
Men born in Asia have a lower risk of prostate cancer than men born in the UK.
Prostate cancer accounts for around 13% of male deaths from cancer in the UK and is the second most common cause of cancer death in men, after lung cancer.
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/prostate/
But here’s the thing. Prostate cancer deaths have been declining in the US (weird free market health care system) and in Europe (mainly nationalized health care systems), but not in the UK (NHS). If you think this says something especially significant about US health care, you must be smoking something.
DougL (frmrly: Conservatively Liberal)
Fix’t to reflect reality.
rachel
It looks like Makewi has made wee all over this thread, too. It must be hard to urinate and eat so much pie at the same time.
kay
@Makewi</a
“The Democrats own both houses of the legislature and the executive branch, and you still can’t stop from pointing the finger at the GOP as the source of your woes ”
And you keep proving, over and over again, that you’re not arguing honestly. I’m not attacking your precious Republican Party, Makewi. I could care less. I’m relying on the quote I posted from the lobbyist’s behind the Tea Parties to show that Grassley wasn’t at those meetings in a good faith effort to reach a compromise. He was there to kill reform.
Republicans seeking to kill health care reform is not controversial or in dispute. You’ve been doing it since FDR.
I’m not going to argue about this with a partisan who refuses to admit he is a partisan, and I don’t need any lectures from Republicans on “leadership”.
If Republicans had any integrity they’d have ended Medicare. You’re opposed to single payer. Why didn’t the GOP kill Medicare when you had the chance? Instead they expanded it, and didn’t bother to pay for it.
If tax credits and the free market are such a fool-proof solution, why didn’t Republicans act on Medicare?
Because the GOP tried privatizing Medicare, with Medicare Advantage, and it”s a costly, wasteful boondoggle, that’s why. It’s a flop, it costs taxpayers more than the traditional Medicare, and now no one can get rid of it, because the insurers bought Congress.
DBrown
@oh really: You are the most stupid dumb A/O that has ever written a post here. All I can say to someone as stupid as you is – I truly hope you get a deadly illness that runs a few $100 K, are dropped by your for profit health care provider and then discover your illness will kill you if you don’t pay for the unique drug (at a few thousand a month) that will save you. Then you can rewrite your asshole post again. This shit IS happening to people and you don’t give a flying F about thi and write the dribble that serves the rich Fer’s like the toad you are . Eat shit and die A/O.
mak
RAM does amazing work treating people for $2/per. While all the docs and dentists volunteer their time, RAM still has expenses:
http://www.ramusa.org/contact/donate.htm