Steven Benen publishes a very wise email from Bruce Bartlett:
I believe that political parties should do penance for their mistakes and just losing power is not enough. Part of that involves understanding why those mistakes were made and how to prevent them from happening again. Republicans, however, have done no penance. They just pretend that they did nothing wrong….
[…..]One reason this isn’t happening is because the media don’t treat Republicans as if they are discredited. On the contrary, they often seem to be treated as if they have more credibility than the administration. Just look at the silly issue of death panels. The media should have laughed it out the window, ridiculed it or at least ignored it once it was determined that there was no basis to the charge. Instead, those making the most outlandish charges are treated with deference and respect, while those that actually have credibility on the subject are treated as equals at best and often with deep skepticism, as if they are the ones with an ax to grind.
Atrios asks the $64,000 question:
I’d be curious to hear what someone like Bartlett thinks about why the situation is as he describes.
Earlier, we discussed why the media gives so much deference to right-wing craziness; it’s because of careerism and a fear of being labeled liberal, in my view. But I don’t think that explains why the likes of Newt Gingrich and Dick Cheney are given so much air time. It’s difficult for me to see how it helps David Gregory’s career to have old, discredited, out-of-power Republicans on his show week after week. I honestly don’t even understand what the audience for these guys is. They’re not even that popular with the Republican base.
ominira
Ratings bitches!!!
Come one now, that was too easy.
If we had a 12 hour broadcast schedule instead of 24 I think things would look a lot different on TV.
aimai
I think there’s something missing from the equation here. And that is the realization that “news” and “views” are part of an entertainment model and a profit center for corporations whose last interest is in informing the public. Literally the last interest. If they can sell reality tv shows with people eating bugs they’ll do that. Newt’s function is to get the rubes to eat the bugs and smile while they are doing so. There’s no other explanation for Fox news than that it serves the multiple corporate interests of its owner. And the rest of the “news” and “political” divisions do the same. They *can’t* stop promoting the crazies on the far right because at this point the sane people all want sane, expensive, progressive, democratic policies and those are not what the oligarchy wants.
There isn’t going to be any atonement because
a) there’s no such thing as personal responsibility
b) there’s no money in shame
c) there’s no sense of shame on the right side of the aisle. Every single person who voted for Bush/Cheney should have committed seppuku when the picgtures of the children we bombed in Iraq started rolling in. They should have requested to have their own ashes buried in a garbage heap when the torture pictures got out of Abu Ghraib. But they didn’t. And they see no reason for it.
aimai
aimai
except our fine host, of course!
aimai
schrodinger's cat
My explanation, sheer inertia. The media is lazy. They follow the path of least action. They just keep doing what they have always done, i.e. they continue to give Republicans who were powerful air-time. They haven’t yet adjusted to the new reality in Washington and continue to operate as if nothing has changed.
Mike in NC
Money quote from Benen re: GOP vs Obama —
MattF
It’s well known in the sciences that an old paradigm finally fades away only when the people who used it in their careers die off. The important thing about Obama (besides his courage, which everyone is too embarrassed about to mention), is that he takes the long view. That’s what it’s going to take.
MacsenMifune
A major problem is some democrats act the same way and treat the crazy supposedly mainstream republicans with too respect. In an interview Paul Begala hits out on the easy target of Palin calling her Intellectual light weight. Yet then he goes on to say he respects Newt Gingrich “political skills”. This is the same Gingrich that said that there is nothing in the constitution against setting up a theocracy, the same Gingrich that says all the same insane talking points as Palin and the other crazies. So in Begala world Palin batshit crazy but Newt is respectable, wtf.
DougJ
Ratings bitches
Gregory’s are awful. The show is dying.
Face
Soundbites, Doug.
Democrats give reasoned, logical, equivocal statements of fact. They’re 2 parts boring and–being reality–1 part depressing and measured.
Republicans dont give 2 shits about honesty or truth, so they can just whole-cloth make shit up about anything. Because at any time the most insane shit maybe spoken, every network wants to book those who may do so.
It’s exciting to have Palin on to say the most outlandish shit becuase, if one does not dismiss it, then that network can use those bites on every follow up broadcast for the next two weeks.
Demo Woman
Tomorrow I am planning on watching “Meet The Press” because of Rachel. I’ve only seen Gregory one time and I thought he was trying out for Fox TV.
namekarB
Has no one considered that the rich and powerful control both government and the media?
Mark S.
Until the GOP gets their asses handed to them a few more times, their mantra will be, “People voted us out because we weren’t conservative enough.”
I can understand putting Dick Cheney on a show (but not letting him lie through his teeth unchallenged): he was running the country for most of the last eight years. Gingrich, on the other hand, has been irrelevant for over a decade.
The Grand Panjandrum
I would be curious to hear from someone who teaches at a journalism school, particularly from someone who has been in the field for 20+ years. What have they been teaching these people? We have a very big problem in establishment media and I can see no end in sight. I think its an issue of character. Most big media folks like the cushy jobs and don’t like getting their fine duds muddied up in the trenches. Whatever happened to the blue-collar mentality in press? They have been subsumed by the elite and are now a wholly pwned subsidiary of corporate America. That’s fine. They want to put their kids through college too. They’ve just chosen a little different way of whoring around. It wouldn’t bother me one lick if they were honest about it, but they’ve built this pretension of fairness–getting both sides of an issue–even if the other side has been completely discredited as Bartlett writes above.
Caveat lector should be the premise any consumer of news media operates under. These people are shameless, lazy and a discgrace to the people who went before them. They are pissing on the graves of Murrow, Brinkley, and Cronkite as we speak.
The Grand Panjandrum
@DougJ: Gregory is going to have Dick Armey and Rachel Maddow on this Sunday. THAT is going to be must see TV.
Bob In Pacifica
The media isn’t beholden to ratings. It’s beholden to the people who own the media, and the Newts of the world are representing their interests. It’s really just that simple.
Whores like Gregory aren’t journalists. They’re whores.
linda
ginning up controversy gets attention and ratings. the teevee crew just hopes for some outlandish comment or pissing contest between guests that gets picked up and goes viral. facts mean nothing in that environment; it’s who shouts the loudest and has the most facetime. and repigs are very very good at dominating those encounters.
Kryptik
Connections. Money, dear boy, money.
cleek
two things come to mind: the talk shows have internalized the idea that Republicans Are Serious and Dems are Lightweights; and, there’s a group of well-known Republicans (Newt, McCain, Powell, etc.) who simply make good talk show guests. they don’t hem and haw, they don’t evade, they’ve got the answers and they can deliver them in an engaging and entertaining way. it doesn’t matter if they’re on the wrong side of the issues, as long as they sound like they know what they’re talking about and they don’t bore the viewers. they’re good bullshitters, in other words.
Alan
Atrios is right to put a dollar figure on it. That’s the reason the RW crazies are given credibility. Didn’t ABC’s “This Week” get its best ratings ever by having Michelle Malkin on the show a few weeks ago? And look at FNC. They always get the best ratings. Other news outlets are just trying to hold on to their wallets by trying to keep the RW crazies attention.
linda
@Bob In Pacifica:
gregory is the newest of the g.e. media crew to buy a nantucket home. just like tweety; just like the late monsignor russert. that way they’re closer to their nantucket sugar daddy, jack welch.
cleek
… forgot to add.
and fear and laziness keep show bookers going back to this same group of GOP bullshitters over and over, instead of taking chances with new faces.
Zach
Believe it or not, Newt Gingrich gets so much airtime because he’s the best messenger they’ve got. No shit. Romney’s smarter, but he comes off as focus-grouped while Newt seems off-the-cuff. Dick Cheney gets so much airtime because, while evil, he’s remarkably honest and consistent. Not honest when it comes to avoiding prosecution for himself and his friends, mind you, but honest about the real motivations and likely outcomes of his preferred policies.
There are folks in the GOP who are on the same plane of political skill, but they’re too hard to pin down on abortion to ever be at the head of a national GOP ticket.
demkat620
Because one party has no spine and the other party is bug fuck insane.
That’s why.
Shibby
@DougJ:
Somewhat unrelated to the thread… DougJ you are doing an amazing job and I always look forward to reading your commentary. My thanks for keeping me informed and laughing.
JGabriel
Amusing and marginally on-topic, Paul Begala:
Ouch. That’s gotta sting.
Or should anyway. Sadly, I suspect that both Palin and Begala both actually think Newt possesses some sort of intellectual heft.
.
JK
Josh Marshall had a post on TPM a few weeks ago noting that Washington DC has a deeply ingrained political culture which leans right, so it doesn’t matter how big an advantage Dems hold over Repubs in the Sen and House along with a Dem prez, DC will always have a bias in favor of Republicans.
JK
@JGabriel:
Sarah Palin does not have the intellectual heft of Andy Dick.
El Cid
Why is it so inconceiveable to imagine that a powerful establishmentarian system would overwhelmingly favor pro-elite conservative ideas and politics than potentially populist political forces and ideas which might favor the majority over the few?
Is it really so shocking that the system is much more likely to favor the most dangerous craziness of the hawkish and conservative and pro-business forces than it would the forces which could reform that?
Early in the 20th century the newspapers actually reflected interests groups such as businessmen, labor unions, socialists, ethnic groups, etc., and they seemed to understand that the controllers of each type of media would influence the content in different ways for each community.
By default, we have come to view the establishment, business-owned press as somehow the objective, neutral press which confounds us in its continual haphazard preference against all but the most tepid liberalism.
jacy
I think that’s simply that big media is beholden to the “establishment,” the people who control the most money and wield the most influence. To maintain that control, people will lie and cheat and slander and do whatever they can get away with. So for a long time the most organized and most powerful people have been, well, not very nice people.
They’ve manipulated things so long, that it’s become the norm, and the lack of higher education means we have a swath of population that never learned critical thinking and discernment and will fall for whatever somebody screams the loudest or whatever pushes their fear buttons.
So when you combine the public’s need for “entertainment” and the fact that there is such a lot of corporate control over so many aspects of discourse, you get what we have today.
Corporate America want’s it to be 1955, when everybody followed the rules and everybody (i.e. women, gays, minorities, etcetera) knew their place, because things were easy to control, and if there was a problem you could make a nice “them or us” argument to whatever group you wanted to control. Now we’re at a point where the policies of the past have led us to some precarious financial and social situations, and the uneducated + the manipulative want to turn the clock back. The media follows the money instead of evolving.
The best reporting is done by people who don’t depend on corporate controlled outlets for their paychecks. That’s why NPR tends to be better, and local papers and Internet news tend to be better too. But the unwashed masses are still listening to the loudest voices, and that’s you “MSM.”
Leelee for Obama
@JGabriel: Sarah Palin is to intellectual heft as Paris Hilton is to relevance.
Newt Gingrich is a serial marriage cheater/wife-neglector, whose words should be ignored by decent folk. Tom Lehrer thought satire died when Kissinger got the Nobel Peace Prize. Not that that wasn’t low-water mark, but Gingrich having any forum in the Public Arena is insulting.
kommrade reproductive vigor
They’re the only one’s who:
A. Have time to come on his show.
B. Are big enough attention whores.
I’ve thought about this and decided it must be liberals who feel the need to shout at their TV and raise their bp to dangerous levels. Turn it off guys; when you go back in a month they’ll have replaced it with something not stupid.*
The fReichtards are too busy listening to Glenn Beck and other assorted C.H.U.D.s. When they aren’t watching their recordings of Palin Starburst Winky for the 5 zillionth time. Also.
*Or something worse. But at least it will be different.
pcbedamned
This should have been posted in the previous thread, but I’m a little late to the party and everyone is over here now, so I’ll put it here.
I was over at WaPo reading through the comments, and this particular line stuck in my head most of the day, so I just had to reply. Here it is verbatim…
Walkdmx wrote:
“They teach in the schools of other countries that there are no stupider people on the planet than the American redneck baboon, a moron who will vote against his own interests if offered something to hate instead.”
pcbedamned wrote:
No, they do not teach this in the educational system here in Canada. The general public has come to this conclusion all on our own after watching you Yanks for last 50 years or so on T.V. Beginning with ‘McCarthyism’ and up to the present time (with civil rights and the rest of the crap from the 60’s, the cold war, arms races, Iraq War, etc. thrown in between). The ‘lunatic fringe’ is alive and well on both sides of your political spectrum. Did the far right ever wonder why the rest of the world didn’t buy into the Iraq War? Maybe because the rest of us don’t thrive on the bullsh*t of fear. We in Canada tend to look at all sides of an issue and then make an informed decision. We also don’t hold our ‘parties’ as the be all to end all. Until Americans can overcome their extreme partisanship, your country will continue to be entertainment fodder for the rest of us…
(Oh, and FYI, here in ‘Socialist Canada’, we still have old people, and the disabled).
(sorry, I don’t quite get the XHTML thing)
As for why these guys are given so much airtime, they expound continually on the ‘greatness of Reagan’, and THAT is what is popular with base.
kommrade reproductive vigor
@JK: Sarah Palin does not have the intellectual heft of
Andymy Dick.Fxd.
Montysano
@The Grand Panjandrum:
I hope you’re right. I hope it is must see teevee. I hope it’s not a dreary wankfest where Gregory insists that Maddow must surely understand the concern about Death Panels, and prevents an August Statesman like Dick Armey from suffering the indignity of pointed questions.
AustinRoth
I, for one, am truly enjoying and reveling in the complete and utter meltdown of the “Left-Liberal Revolution” of the elections of 2008. It isn’t even September 2009 yet.
The complete self-destructive nature of the Democratic party when handed the reins of government exceeded even my wildest expectations.
someguy
Because there are no “credited” Republicans nor will there be until the party rejects its state-of-the-art warmongering racist, sexist, know-nothing laissez faire platform, and the villagers would give him shit if it was Dem v. Dem because they are closeted wingers too, many of them. I hate using the term, but, ‘duh’.
linda
where Gregory insists that Maddow must surely understand the concern about Death Panels, and prevents an August Statesman like Dick Armey from suffering the indignity of pointed questions.
i’m so hoping that it’s a full panel and maddow is sitting right next to tom ‘high school lesbians hanging out in the girls’ restroom’ coburn. and i hope she reaches out and touches him and he bursts into flames…. now, that would be must see teevee… lol.
JGabriel
JK:
Not entirely true. For most of the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s, DC culture leaned slightly left. Especially compared to the present. The current DC political culture was constructed in the 80’s & 90’s by Reagan, Gingrich, et. al. It can be deconstructed and rebuilt.
However, I don’t know if it can be changed under the current administration. Racial resistance may be too strong – after all, much of the punditry is whitey whitey white white compared to the diversity of Obama’s administration.
.
JK
@kommrade reproductive vigor: Very nicely done.
@Montysano: Within 10 minutes, Dick Armey will make some blatantly sexist remark to Maddow. When he appeared with Joan Walsh on Hardball, Armey said “I’m glad you’re not my wife”.
Corner Stone
@MattF:
The long view of what?
People keep asserting this with absolutely no evidence of it. Please, I’m begging ya, tell me what long view and don’t punk out like Genny Winny Stuck did and mention some rambling anecdote regarding R&D money in the stimulus.
JK
@JGabriel:
Have you lived in DC or do you have family or friends who’ve lived there?
I’ve never lived in DC, so I lack firsthand knowledge to verify the accuracy of Josh Marshall’s assertion, but it caught my attention when I read it.
Corner Stone
@linda: If the word lesbian makes any kind of appearance I will donate massive amounts of dough to the Save TZ the Plumber PayPal site.
JGabriel
Leelee for Obama:
To be fair, I wouldn’t hold a Democrat’s personal relationships against him or her if they were a smart politician, and while I think Gingrich’s marital history marks him as a rank hypocrite, I won’t use it to deny him a voice in public discourse.
No, the reason Gingrich should be denied a forum in the public arena is because he’s an insensitve clod and a moral idiot whose rhetoric serves no purpose but to instill fear and anger in the most ignorant segments of the population.
.
Ailuridae
I have an honest question for those arguing that the phenomenon (Republicans being treated as serious despite being rejected at the polls and objectively bad at governance) is a result of a corporate agenda from major news organizations:
How does this explain NPR using the same. horrible “two sides to every story”, “he said/she said” approach to news?*
I think careerism (people won’t be at NPR forever etc) is more of an explanation than people admit.
*Obviously the NewsHour has as much corporate influence as anything on mainstream TV and typifies “Stenographer to power” type coverage.
Ailuridae
@JK:
I’d place the bet on homophobic before misogynistic/sexist. Dick Armey is a peach.
jenniebee
Do these guys in the national tv media really have a stake in national peace & prosperity? Their industry is nearly recession-proof, their incomes large enough that the only thing they really have to be afraid of is inflation and boring their audience… the problem of the uninsured and the underinsured is an abstract one, not a practical one to these people. War and its prospects make for great ratings. And hell, even I’m more likely to tune in to see Michele Malkin on a panel show than Al Gore, because with Malkin, I know I’m going to see some grade-A crazy. The rational interests of the media are aligned with our self-indulgent impulses; their occasional noble impulses are what align with our rational interests.
joe from Lowell
How’s this for a theory:
It’s the same reason why the news media kept pretending that there was a contested primary election going on, weeks after Barack Obama had locked up the nomination.
It’s much more interesting to write about a competitive fight.
Comrade Jake
Forget about the media, we have a population with a significant number of people who believe what they read in chain emails.
Leelee for Obama
@JGabriel: I think his hypocrisy is the issue. To say nothing of his bloviating on Family Values. I expect John Edwards to slink into obscurity, and I think Gingrich should have done the same. Many will say my support of Bill Clinton makes me a hypocrite, but I knew who and what he was when I voted for him. It was his and his wife’s business, not mine. He didn’t demand that Gingrich, Hyde or Livingstone(?) be impeached and removed the way they did to him.
JGabriel
JK:
No, JK, I haven’t. My opinion is formed from extensive reading and having lived through the 60’s and 70’s, albeit in NY and PA. As Pearlstein notes in the article DougJ quotes in the previous post, the networks and pundit class of the 60’s wouldn’t give the time of day, much less national coverage, to the types of extremists that the networks routinely cover now.
Hell, even William F. Buckley ridiculed the Birchers, while today’s National Review celebrates the birthers, deathers and teabaggers. That’s how far the Overton Window has shifted.
Having seen that shift occur over my lifetime – having seen it constructed by the Reagan administration and manipulated by the Gingrich Congressional Class of ’94 – I’ve no reason to believe it can’t be reversed, that the pendulum can’t swing back (to resort to cliche).
.
Bret
OT: How long until The Corner props up District 9 as a anti-Obama Administration film?
JGabriel
Hep! I been modereratered!
Honestly, not sure why. Is it because there are four links (although one of them is an internal link)?
.
MBunge
“The long view of what?
People keep asserting this with absolutely no evidence of it. Please, I’m begging ya, tell me what long view and don’t punk out like Genny Winny Stuck did and mention some rambling anecdote regarding R&D money in the stimulus.”
I think health care reform is a good example of it. Look at how bad it is now, then try and imagine how much worse it would be if Obama hadn’t bought off Big Pharma. It any sort of decent reform gets passed, it’s largely going to be because Obama neutralized as much institutional opposition to it as he possibly could. And he did that BEFORE the debate/negotiations in Congress got started.
That’s taking the long view.
Mike
General Winfield Stuck
@Corner Stone:
Let’s see CS, we were having this debate a day or two ago and you suddenly ran off.. Then when I’m not around you take a shot. Chickenshit Corner is your new name.
JK
@Ailuridae:
Great column on the disease of “he said/she said” journalism http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2009/04/12/hesaid_shesaid.html
It’s very disappointing to see this shoddy level of journalism from NPR and the NewsHour
This quote is incredibly revealing about the shallowness and overall lack of professionalsim of the Wash Press Corps
“The problem with health care is that it’s so big and so complicated that the public is never really going to understand all the moving parts of this,” NPR health policy correspondent Julie Rovner said on air Wednesday.
h/t http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=AE22DB66-18FE-70B2-A8B746984618104D
I recommend reading the entire Politico article. Rovner is almost confessing that healthcare is too demanding a subject for her to report on. It’s her fucking job to make it understandable to the general public. If she lacks the ability to do this, she should quit being a reporter and do something less intellectaully demanding.
ronathan richardson
My simplest explanation is that David Gregory views the democratic party like it’s the nice asian kid at school who won’t cause you any trouble if you screw him over or mock him in front of the popular kids, while he views the republicans as the captain of the football team who will beat your ass if you slight his honor.
steve s
“August 15th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
It’s well known in the sciences that an old paradigm finally fades away only when the people who used it in their careers die off.”
It’s a well known quote by Max Planck. It is not true, however.
jl
I am recovering from my own emo episode over the media fanned wingnut charges of genocide for the elderly and death panels. I am feeling more optimistic today.
It might be that the corporations and nutcases blew their wad too quickly on sheer nonsense that is too easy to debunk. Maybe they panicked and made a serious tactical error that will come back to haunt them over the long term.
They could have started with mumbo jumbo about wasteful government bureaucracy, then moved on to the deificit, Then on to unfounded scaremongering about cuts in Medicare, and then unleashed the death panel nonsense right after Congress went back into session, in order to disrupt crucial votes.
But they started August with easily disprovable lies and nonsense. They facilitated nutball screamers who yell about getting rid of Medicare and social security in order to restore some fantasy Anglo-Saxon county-level common law constitutional order. Those nutcases aren’t going away, and their rantings will not go down well with the seniors.
They shot their wad within two weeks on sheer garbage. How can you ramp up the scaremongering from genocide and death panels?
Now their lies will undergo repeated debunking for the rest of the year. So, there is hope, even with the useless Democrats. We will see. The establishment Democrats are hopeless: they will just sit their cowering as is their fundamental instinct.
Maybe progressives will be aggressive and some information will get through the media filter. Maybe the healthcare experts at AARP will prevail over their pure interest group instincts and AARP will come out on the right side for the longer term interest of their members.
I’m not saying that odds are in favor of the majority of the population getting something good out of this mess, but there is hope, I think.
Laura W
@General Winfield Stuck:
That’s his MO.
Or are you new here?
https://balloon-juice.com/?p=20643#comment-1220502
steve s
At Win Dixie today the 5 oz container of baby arugula, normally out of my range, was B.O.G.O, so, 10 oz for $4.50. Which, incidentally, is about what Wal-Mart charges for spring mix. So, I picked up a couple. Haven’t had baby arugula yet. Any suggestions on the dressing? Right now I’m planning on a basic Ken’s Creamy Caesar.
realbtl
Hold on a minute here. The only reason any show is broadcast is to sell eyeballs to advertisers. The US average is about 32 hours of TV per month. Who are these people and what is their political affiliation? Based on my admittedly anecdotal sampling of friends it’s not liberals who spend 4+ hours per day watching the idiot box.
IndieTarheel
Speaking of Mooseburger Spice, I loved the following line from this GOS lambasting re death panels:
AhabTRuler
I know what all those words mean, but it still doesn’t make sense.
jl
Since I work in the technical side of healthcare effectiveness and cost analysis, I will put in my two cents. The press reporters have become incompetent at reporting anything at all technical. A few papers still have good science reporters, but most of the reporters are simply innumerate. There is no polite way to put it.
I try to avoid the press whenever possible. People who deal with them on regular basis advise me that they cannot be counted on to do understand simple junior high algebra. Period.
Intersection of two lines? Growth rates versus levels? Any nonlinear relationship? Square root? Even the simplest concept of statistical adjustment? Forget it,
For the majority of reporters. A few papers still have competent science, business, or health beat reporters who understand basic math and logical concepts. Cripes, you could get people who would do a better job of reporting technical issues from the paper’s maintenance staff. At least they understand enough math to do the wiring and air conditioning.
IndieTarheel
@kommrade reproductive vigor: Winner!
kay
@Leelee for Obama:
I don’t think hypocrisy is the issue, or family values. I think it’s an issue of basic fairness and easily understood and widely accepted rules of a fight.
Republicans put their marriages in play, when they put Clinton’s marriage in play. They opened the door.
I think there was an understanding, for years. No one was going to go there, because they understood they did not want to open that door, because all of them are vulnerable, or potentially vulnerable, because they’re human beings.
When Gingrich opened the door, had Democrats pounced, we would have shut down the family values nonsense in two weeks, and avoided that ridiculous impeachment, which, I’m convinced, discredited the whole mechanism of impeachment. The mechanism is important, and worth protecting. It’s been trivialized, and Newt Gingrich did that.
Calling them out when they put it in play is an accountability issue. If they didn’t want to go there, well, they didn’t have to.
Corner Stone
@Laura W: Fuck you. I made a random reference for the request for an Open Thread from several posters that Cole wasn’t seeing. I was teasing him because he mentions you prominently when he makes an Open Thread. I don’t give a shit about you, and your sense of grandiose is ridiculous. Fuck off.
JK
@AhabTRuler:
I’m not generally a fan of Politico, but even a broken clock has the correct time twice a day. This article is revealing because several MSM reporters, Julie Rovner, are confessing that reporting intelligently on healthcare is either beyond their capability or is simply too boring.
jl
@jl: Sorry about the weird paragraph breaks in my last comment. I still assume an edit button to save my ass after a rushed comment, but it still has not returned to save me from my sloth.
General Winfield Stuck
@Laura W:
I wasn’t on that thread, maybe during my hiatus from computer death. Sometimes I think I’m new here, and other times like I was gestated on BJ/ Anywho. Mr Corner Stone came to us as an anti-Obama PUMA ranter during the primaries, but did try and make a go of it after the election. Now it’s about all concern troll drivel. I expect to start seeing Hillary /2012 from his ilk showing up anyday.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: Hey listen, I get that you can’t argue your way outta a wet paper sack, and that’s cool. But why would I keep wasting my time trying to explain to you that your “evidence” of Obama thinking long term was not, in fact, “evidence” of anything at all. As myself and others pointed out.
You are just really God.Awful.At.This. You can’t argue through to a logical conclusion. Poor thing.
Laura W
@AhabTRuler: Oh Good Lord, Ahab!
Snort!
castellan
This.
Laura W
@Corner Stone: So nice to see you back. Charming as ever.
JK
Has anyone found out who is the actual author of the posts on Sarah Palin’s Facebook account?
There’s no way in hell that Ms. Mooseburger herself wrote these posts. She’s simply too fucking dumb.
MikeJ
Shit shit shit.
Totally off topic. Just heard Jim Dickinson died. If you grew up loving Big Star or the ‘Mats, or sneaking into the Antenna to hear Panther Burns, today is very, very sad.
General Winfield Stuck
@Chickenshit Stone:
This is more like the old CS. Add in a fifth or so of Jim Beam and we get the NC-17 version. You’re still an idjit son and a cowardly one. So I guess now that your referring to the Makewi clown troll, we can treat you in kind.
steve s
Let’s say your million-dollar paycheck depended solely on ratings, which depends on excitement and volume and surprise and hysteria and allegations and fireworks. Would you book Sarah Palin or Joe Biden? Palin. Newt Gingrich or Peter Orzag? Gingrich. Michelle Bachman or Jim Webb? Bachman. Richard Posner or Glenn Beck? Beck.
I’m not saying simple ratings explains it all, but it might explain a hell of a lot of it.
Corner Stone
@Laura W: Yeah, me taking a shot at you:
https://balloon-juice.com/?p=20643#comment-1220406
Get over yourself.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: Not sure where the coward part comes in “internet tuff guy”.
I asked a question, you failed to provide an answer yet remained confused about the issue, and I went on to other things.
Let’s hash it out here and now if that’ll make you feel better.
I’m a sensitive male after all.
General Winfield Stuck
And fuck you Mr CS for making me defend myself on my blogging day off.
General Winfield Stuck
@Chickenshit Stone:
That was so Palin of you.
Holly McLachlan
It might be that the corporations and nutcases blew their wad too quickly on sheer nonsense that is too easy to debunk. […] they started August with easily disprovable lies and nonsense. […] They shot their wad within two weeks on sheer garbage. How can you ramp up the scaremongering from genocide and death panels? […] Now their lies will undergo repeated debunking for the rest of the year.
Yes. The pushback is not yet what it should be, but there is a lot of time before any written legislation comes up for a vote. Someone above asserted that the Democrats have lost control of the government because the “news”media machine created/facilitated this RW guerilla movement during the August doldrums. That will be their public assertion — that any display of weakness (aka rationality) on the part of Dems equals failure. The idea is that if enough loudmouths say something loud enough, long enough, it becomes true. But this is a method that only works if you let it go unfought.
It didn’t work so good in the fall of 2008, when the freaknut ultra-Rightists worked very hard to assert that Obama was a commiefasciislamo-furrigner. Odds are it will fail again. But that failure won’t come without grassroots effort of the kind that got Obama elected.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: Nice. So, as I think should be clear to everyone, you in fact are incapable of completing a logical argument.
And yet, somehow I do not remember winking at you one time.
JK
@steve s:
The mindset of 24 hour cable news is simply “That’s Entertainment”. All they want is melodrama, conflict, and spectacle. Facts, information, and context be damned.
debit
You know what would be nice? If the new comment system is compatible with Killfile. That would be really nice.
General Winfield Stuck
I have nothing to hash out. Obama passed long term, even futuristic legislation to solve our energy problems and to improve healthcare delivery systems with a lot of R And D money. If you don’t except that as thinking long term.. Then you are a idiot. There, all hashed out.
And the cowardly thing is obvious. Internet tradition is clear. If you are going to take a shot at someone after running away previously, or at any time. To do it on a thread that that person is not present, it is cowardly, or chickenshit as it were.
Bob In Pacifica
Regarding the ad at the top of the page: “ANN COULTER–FREE!” Not if she were free, not with your dick.
DougJ
@Shibby
Thanks!
Laura W
@Corner Stone: Um, that was the same link I cited? Not getting your point, which is par for the course with you. It’s all about the anger and lashing out with you, as far as I can see.
Anyway, I’m pretty good with the archives so I could go dig up the previous three digs you made at me for no good reason when I was not even participating in the threads that I originally ignored and referenced in the link we both posted here tonight… but really, who has the life energy to waste on such matters?
You sound awfully mad and enraged, though, for a man who “doesn’t give a shit about me.” You might want to do a little self-awareness exploration there. Might improve your relationship skills with women. And men.
steve s
Obviously in a perfect world Bill O’Reilly would be the janitor who cleans Rachel Maddow’s palatial bathroom, but sadly, his show gets 3-4x more viewers than she does. How much of ‘news’ (garbage) programming comes down to boring facts like that?
I know it’s a banal answer, but it looks to me like one with a lot of explanatory power.
General Winfield Stuck
@jl:
And Jl, I really liked this post. It was sober commentary and not to optimistic, nor too pessimistic. As little bear said, Juuussst Right/
steve s
Does anybody know what Fareed GPS’s ratings are? It’s a good show, so I bet they’re crap. I can’t seem to find it, just ratings for the daily prime time cable shows.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@steve s:
No, that would be a terrible idea. You can’t trust that guy around a loofah.
steve s
LOL. forgot about that.
JGabriel
Laura W:
Fixed for accuracy.
.
General Winfield Stuck
@jl:
I meant this one.
JGabriel
Uh, that quote should be attributed to steve s, not Laura W. My bad.
How soon do we get editing again?
.
steve s
I actually have a loofah. They’re not all that sexy. Just kinda abrasive.
Okay well I guess the third sentence doesn’t _necessarily_ invalidate the second. To each their own…
General Winfield Stuck
@JGabriel:
Not soon enough.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@steve s:
I hear that falafel is the preferred alternative for sensitive skin.
Laura W
@JGabriel: I’m very
honoreddisturbed that masturbating with a loofah made you think of me.But I’m grandiose and need to get over myself.
JK
@steve s:
In a perfect world, Fox News Channel would have filed for bankruptcy the day after Barack Obama was elected president, Osama Bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri would have been captured, tried, and convicted on multiple counts of homicide, Rush Limbaugh would still be a public relations guy working for the Kansas City Royals, Sean Hannity would be employed as a construction worker, Glenn Beck and Michael Savage would be patients in a psychiatric hospital, reality television wouldn’t exist, Glenn Reynolds would be a proofreader instead of a law professor, and Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, and Laura Ingraham would be substitute elementary school teachers.
cbear
@Bob In Pacifica: Hell, I wouldn’t do her with her dick.
(Hey Bob)
Corner Stone
@Laura W: I know. It’s the same thread where I certainly did not take your name in vain or impugn your BJ rep in any way. Yet it’s the one you chose to use here to display something.
Please, please, please show me the 3 or 4 places where I talked shit about you. I’m pretty sure you can’t.
General Winfield Stuck
This blog is getting hotter by the day. Kinda like a cross between the Jerry Springer show and Penthouse Forum/
Now all we need is Larry O’donnell to do another Hardball show.
Demo Woman
@tripletee (formerly tBone): I never understood O’Reilly’s falafel thing. Is it just me or is he just an idiot?
@Laura W: Hi, what have you been up to. You’ve been scarce for a few days.
cs
Best explanation I’ve seen for the press was something Josh posted at TPM. I can’t find the link at the moment, but, from memory, he said that Republicans used a carrot / stick approach to the media. They were your best friends and would do anything for you, from decent scoops to always returning your calls, and even the occasional bbq at their house.
The catch, of course, was that this access / “friendship” would be completely cut off if there was any “unfair” (read: negative) coverage.
On the flip side, the Democrats, for a while at least, did little to cultivate the press. No dinners, often would ignore a reporter’s calls or would be brusque when returning the call. The poor reporter’s ego would never get the massage from the Left that it would get from the Right.
And there was no real penalty for negative articles from the Democrats. The treatment / access the media would receive from them was the same, no matter what. From the shallow press’s point of view, there was no incentive to make the Democrats look good, as there was for the Republicans.
Have no idea if this is true, but the theory does make a lot of sense.
MikeJ
@Demo Woman:
It’s not just you. He’s an idiot too.
(I kid, I kid. Ow. Stop hitting me.)
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: Sorry, but signing the Stim Bill does not satisfy “evidence” of long term thinking.
You can keep repeating it but that will not make it true.
Again, why I stopped wasting my time with you.
You also claimed I said the Dems needed to lie like the Repubs do but that isn’t what I said either.
You’re just not any good at this.
JK
@MikeJ:
Bill O’Reilly is a TEFLON coated idiot. The Andrea Mackris scandal could have, and in a perfect world WOULD HAVE, destroyed his career.
arguingwithsignposts
One reason this isn’t happening is because the media don’t treat Republicans as if they are discredited. On the contrary, they often seem to be treated as if they have more credibility than the administration.
Does anyone remember the republican “budget” document? Circles and lines, bitchez. That should have been the nail that shut the coffin on GOP legitimacy. Sadly, no.
steve s
I saw that TPM thing too. That could help explain it. And I’ve wondered why the Dems don’t do it more. I imagine if Robert Gibbs told the press corps that reporters who asked Full Retard questions would receive less attention from the President in the future, it would have an effect.
JGabriel
@Demo Woman:
Idiot. Given the context, O’Reilly was reaching for the word ‘loofah’ and somehow ended up at ‘falafel’.
(Pause)
I really don’t know what else to say. I feel like I should add something more… but there’s a purity to it that I just can’t improve upon.
.
General Winfield Stuck
I said it was implied. If you say you weren’t, OK. Though I retain my doubts. Is that all you have?
Otherwise, if you don’t stop digging, you might come out in China, or somewhere worse.
JK
@steve s:
Robert Gibbs was severely criticized by the MSM when he made a sarcastic remark about Dick Cheney. I don’t remember who it was, maybe Chip Reid, but someone asked Gibbs if he shouldn’t be showing more respect for a former Vice President.
General Winfield Stuck
@JK:
He is ratings profit coated. Too many people in this country crave what he delivers.. HATE. and lies.
Same when Malkin showed up on NBC Today, highest ratings ever, I heard.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: I don’t need anymore as you never fulfilled the requirement of *evidence*. But yeah, somewhere worse…like Laura W’s house? No hetero under 60 wants to end up there ala Kathy Bates in Misery. Fudge me, I should definitely stop then.
And yes, this counts as a shot since you obviously can’t tell otherwise.
General Winfield Stuck
Now you have graduated to a grade A piece of shit. Fuck you buddy and your smart ass mouth. And yes, stopping is a good idea. Your first.
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@Demo Woman:
Obviously he’s an idiot, but I don’t think that explains it. Maybe VH1 will do “Falafel of Love with Bill O’Reilly” to shed some light on the amorous side of this fascinating man.
“OK, whatever it is, it’s wrong on the teleprompter. I don’t … I don’t even know what that means. ‘Soap up with a falafel’? What does that … no. NO. Fuck it, we’ll do it live. WE’LL DO IT LIVE! … hand me that falafel.”
cbear
@JGabriel: Ahem, I agree he was “reaching” for something, but I’m not sure it was a word.
If I were to ever win the lottery, I’d hire a couple of guys to dress as falafels and follow him around to every public appearance for a couple of years.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: You’re the macho man calling complete strangers “cowards” on teh intertubes.
You’re very strong and your alpha instincts have impressed me. Tough guy.
cbear
@tripletee (formerly tBone): Rotflmao.
T, you really should apply your talents to parodying famous goopers on a regular basis. Sign me up for the newsletter.
MikeJ
Jim Dickinson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nGaUx5Y2dY
General Winfield Stuck
Great hunter. Yes?
Fine figure of a man. Yes?
Good. That is all you need to know. For now.
cbear
@tripletee (formerly tBone): May I suggest: “The Sandford Chronicles”.
JK
@General Winfield Stuck:
@Demo Woman:
@General Winfield Stuck:
@MikeJ:
Bill O’Reilly is an idiot but he’s also something far worse. He’s a MALIGNANT MEDIA CARCINOGEN just like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Lou Dobbs, Michael Savage, Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham, Michelle Malkin, and Glenn Reynolds. They have all poisoned the well of political discourse and it will take several generations to detoxify that well and repair the damage they have done.
@Corner Stone:
What’s up with your website? Using Internet Explorer, I clicked on your name, a page with the URL http://damnyo popped up, and I got the error message Oops! This link appears to be broken.
El Cid
Can I ask the reverse question for once?
Exactly why is it that we would logically assume that the establishmentarian media would perform a better, less conserva-fellating job?
Why? What are the structural incentives to do so?
tripletee (formerly tBone)
@cbear:
It’d certainly be an easy enough gig – they’d supply 99% of the material verbatim.
Fern
@Corner Stone:
I recommend that you go back to not wasting your time with him.
Comrade Kevin
@Corner Stone:
Well, you are.
steve s
yeah, Gibbs was criticised a bit for that. But he still has power. In Washington, access is power. The administration can leverage that. Supposedly, Rahm is keeping very detailed records of what little favors are doled out to whom.
General Winfield Stuck
You have a fan CS/
steve s
Just got my low-quality Henckels chef’s knife sharpened by the guy at the flea market. I have whetstones, and can do nearly as good myself, but he’s $2 and 5 mins and a nice 20º angle. Just got out some mushrooms and onion for the pizza. Choppy choppy!
(and got out some vodka, too, so in a few hours I’ll be so tipsy I’ll think “This.” is a complete sentence.)
Corner Stone
@Comrade Kevin: I do in fact enjoy pie. That may be the only true statement attribed to me recently.
Thank you kind sir.
Corner Stone
@steve s: It isn’t?
DougJ
@Corner Stone
Knock it off.
Rebecca
@JGabriel
Fixed it even more ;)
Corner Stone
@DougJ: Knock what off?
And in all seriousness, I am absolutely being honest in asking you – what do you mean?
I’ve commented maybe a dozen times on a 137 comment thread, haven’t threatened anyone or spewed racial or bigoted nonsense like one of our fav commenters.
I’m really, seriously asking you.
DougJ
And in all seriousness, I am absolutely being honest in asking you – what do you mean?
The comment I linked back to, idiot. Stop it. Or you’re gone.
JGabriel
JK:
Most of the Malignant Media Carcinogen audience is pretty old. I think it will only take a generation, two at most, to detoxify – assuming they don’t… multiply.
.
General Winfield Stuck
@JGabriel:
We will never detoxify. When we are gone, we will haunt young whippersnappers all day every day/
steve s
@Corner Stone:
You should have a chat with Brick Head Bill. He’s been obsessed with the topic of pie for months. Myself, I consider it a tad unhealthy, these obsessions. Next thing you know, you’ll be studying the effects of a full moon on the love life of newts, like that Spink-Bottle fellow.
steve s
@…uh…several people…
Would it be a perfect world, in which any poor unsuspecting Bobby had to pop in on that kind of scenario?
Corner Stone
@DougJ: Ok. Hold on a second because I’m being serious here. I’m asking for a little leeway.
You’re saying that someone here can just impugn my pseudonym, can just state as fact with absolutely no proof that I did something , yet I can’t call a little BS, challenge them to prove it and use a little sterile trash talking? That’s the worst thing that’s showed up here? There was nothing graphic there.
Again, I’m right now not being sarcastic or anything at all. Please don’t just play this off, you called me out on it.
The Moar You Know
@Corner Stone: Wow. Read the thread. Ain’t my business, but after a comment like that, I would start with some apologies ASAP – that was way out of line. Good luck.
SFAW
Corner Stone –
Your imbecilic and infantile Laura-trashing at 117 was kinda beyond “sterile trash talking”.
For someone who thinks he’s as smart as you apparently do, the “Mickey the Dunce” routine doesn’t really work.
General Winfield Stuck
LMAO
That could be an Internet Tradition violation?
False Personas have no rights. And That ain’t right.
General Winfield Stuck
I have my rights. I want some virtual justice. Ya just can’t impugn a Generalisimo like that.
DougJ
You’re saying that someone here can just impugn my pseudonym, can just state as fact with absolutely no proof that I did something , yet I can’t call a little BS, challenge them to prove it and use a little sterile trash talking? That’s the worst thing that’s showed up here?
It was too personal. Perhaps you were just kiddiing, but you crossed a line you shouldn’t have.
steve s
Corner, Doug seems to have been referencing your personal attack on Laura. Personal attacks are bad form.
The general rule I use when commenting on the internet is, don’t say anything you wouldn’t say in a college discussion class.
steve s
Oooo, that vodka has kicked in. Any moment now, I’ll think “Also.” is hysterical and underutilized.
General Winfield Stuck
I wish you would say something LauraW. Just a hi would do.
Indylib
@IndieTarheel:
Win! Win!
Oh, so true.
SFAW
CS –
It’s kinda like this:
If you and Commenter X were going at it, and that commenter were to ask you “Are you still blowing goats?”, that might be OK – borderline, but probably OK.
But if Commenter X were to ask you “Is your husband still blowing goats?”, that crosses over the line, because (A) your husband is an “innocent bystander” in that particular fight, and (B) your husband hadn’t trashed Commenter X.
DougJ –
Maybe I should have left this to you?
HRA
Pcbedamned:
“No, they do not teach this in the educational system here in Canada. The general public has come to this conclusion all on our own after watching you Yanks for last 50 years or so on T.V. Beginning with ‘McCarthyism’ and up to the present time (with civil rights and the rest of the crap from the 60’s, the cold war, arms races, Iraq War, etc. thrown in between). The ‘lunatic fringe’ is alive and well on both sides of your political spectrum. Did the far right ever wonder why the rest of the world didn’t buy into the Iraq War? Maybe because the rest of us don’t thrive on the bullsh*t of fear. We in Canada tend to look at all sides of an issue and then make an informed decision. We also don’t hold our ‘parties’ as the be all to end all. Until Americans can overcome their extreme partisanship, your country will continue to be entertainment fodder for the rest of us…
(Oh, and FYI, here in ‘Socialist Canada’, we still have old people, and the disabled).”
I was born and raised in Canada. I was too young to form any political opinions. I do know my Dad had a great admiration for the US and at the first opportunity brought us here. This person is from the “damn yankee” fringe of Canadians. No different from the swill we have to deal with here from the crazies. He or she is the bullshitter. Fear has no boundaries. My Canadian relatives were scared when 9/11 happened, too. Well, I guess he discounts the extreme partisanship of French-speaking Canada. As I reply to this, I am struck by the rambling of the quote above and feel as if I have succumbed to it as well.
Dick Gregory was on Morning Joe yesterday. You can bet his ratings are low whenever he appears there.
Thanks, Doug for these great posts you give us.
AhabTRuler
@SFAW: No, I think your fine, but why’d ya hafta bring Mickey Kaus into this?
Corner Stone
@SFAW: Did you notice the comment @ 59? Nobody mentioned anyone’s name at all until this comment came flying in somehow trying to say I had transgressed against at some certain point in the past.
That was not instigated by me. I didn’t mention anyone’s name until I got thrown under the bus, slapped in the face, Lanny Davis’d, good for John McCain’d, etc.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: I know, it’s kinda crazy. You’ve been calling me a coward all night but I didn’t notice DougJ stepping in to censor you in any way.
That wasn’t too personal? I shouldn’t have demanded my Honor at dawn with pistols?
Corner Stone
@The Moar You Know: Nobody cares what you have to say.
General Winfield Stuck
@Corner Stone:
No
What you should do is apologize to LauraW for being a sick jackasse and then just STFU.
I’m a natural born asshole and can take it, what you said to LauraW was so far off the reservation that words fail to express it. Besides it also being a coldhearted lie.. Dougj gave you a window with maybe you were kidding. You should climb out that window and do the right thing.
cbear
@DougJ: Whoa. Since when did insulting someone at BJ become grounds for banishment, or the threat therof????
I think Coner Stone is a total asshole, but his comment was far less egregious than a thousand others that have been made in the past—especially during the primaries last year.
Does John Cole agree with this, or are you now the arbiter of what passes for polite discussion on BJ?
Mr Furious
@Corner Stone: The fact that Obama’s President is pretty good evidence of a long view.
He outmaneuvered everyone on both sides by keeping his eye on the horizon while everyone on the Dem side—especially HRC—and then McCain chased the 6:00 news day after day.
Good enough evidence?
JK
@General Winfield Stuck:
@Corner Stone:
The two of you should appear together on http://bloggingheads.tv.
Corner Stone
@Mr Furious: I would agree that getting elected is a good indicator of short term strategy. But getting elected is all that he’s done so far.
And yes, he’s only been in office less than a year – I grant that 100%! But others seem to want to keep espousing his “long term thinking” when after 8 months we have zero evidence of how he plays a long game. And I’m not dogging him for anything! Just saying it’s way too soon to say he’s a loing term strategic thinker! Yet others keep insisting there’s evidence of this!
Getting elected is a good start but surely you can’t tell me you believe 18 months closing is a view to long term thinking?
Corner Stone
@Corner Stone: Meant to say “short term strategy and/or tactical advantages”.
General Winfield Stuck
@JK:
I’m much too good lookin’ for that. :–)
Corner Stone
@JK: He’s clearly too handsome for me to debate live. It’d be like Nixon vs JFK.
I’d be all sweaty and puffy cheeked and he’d be all “My fellow citizens ur-ruh.”
Or can I not make fun of JFK now either that Eunice just passed?
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: See? he’s too handsome and I’m too much of a coward.
Corner Stone
@cbear: That’s the nicest thing anyone’s ever said about me.
DougJ
Does John Cole agree with this, or are you now the arbiter of what passes for polite discussion on BJ?
I have a pretty good sense of how John feels about these things.
There’s insulting and then there’s going over the line to too personal. I’d rather not get into this in detail, but I think many of the commenters here know what I mean.
DougJ
He’s clearly too handsome for me to debate live. It’d be like Nixon vs JFK.
I’d be all sweaty and puffy cheeked and he’d be all “My fellow citizens ur-ruh.”
Or can I not make fun of JFK now either that Eunice just passed?
Okay, that was funny.
The Moar You Know
@Corner Stone: That’s for the best. We should all give a brief prayer of thanksgiving for that,
General Winfield Stuck
@Corner Stone:
Just for the record dude. I don’t believe I used the all encompassing term coward. Chickenshit maybe, and the adverb cowardly that was specific to talking trash about other commenters when they weren’t present on a thread. You may be a John Wayne in other dealings, though I doubt it, And quit whining.
Others may disagree with my complaint, but there it is.
JK
@General Winfield Stuck: @Corner Stone:
If you are both camera shy, I think it’s incumbent upon John Cole to find a website where you can debate via audiostream. I’m confident there are many BJ readers who would check it out.
General Winfield Stuck
And I am saddened that no one got my earlier Jeremiah Johnson quote.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
@jl:
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
Well, of course, my post begins with paragraph five. FYWP!
Steeplejack
@Laura W:
That’s funny, I saw this today.
Also: highly recommended.
Anne Laurie
Bingo. David Gregory’s problem is that he — like many of his fellow Media Village Idiots — never got over high school. Either they’re still trying to get in with ‘tha kool kidz’ (like DG or Jake Tapper), or they’re trying to replicate their “glory days”, like Bill O’Reilly. Would that we could set up an ongoing Senior Prom, maybe in a gynmasium on the LOST island, and entice all the Media Village Idiots to go posture where the rest of us won’t have to listen to them.
cbear
@DougJ: With all due respect, DougJ, I think you are way off base—and I would like to know whether JC agrees with you.
By your standards, probably 20-30% of the commenters here would have been banned in the past—-including me, JSF, MYIQ, Dennis-SGGM, TZ, pluk…just to name a few.
I’m sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but BJ has always stood out as a place where people are free to be as much of an ass or an asshole as they desire, and the community has been free to ignore, insult, castigate, and denigrate them or their views as they deem appropriate.
IIRC, JC in the past has only offered to ban a few individuals who have posted virulently anti-semitic comments or something equally egregious.
I’ll repeat: Yes, CS’s comment was insulting, but no more so than countless others posted here over the years AND it received the appropriate “You’re an ashhole” response almost immediately.
Corner Stone
@General Winfield Stuck: Point being – I couldn’t care less what you called me. Call me a coward, call me a p to the u to the ssy, call me what you like. A-hole, jackie, dim bulb, whatever.
But if DougJ is going to step in and tell me to cool it when I make a cultural pop reference against someone who’s been slinging it against me with absolutely zero call – zero call, and there’s zero links to show why this ever even came up, then why aren’t you being called on the schoolmasters carpet for something a fuckton lot of people would consider very, very personal?
If I’ve been dredging someone through the muck for no reason then bring the links. I haven’t. I’ve called you an idiot (GWS) because I don’t think you can argue your way into a phone booth.
I never said shit nor shinola against the other persona until it was brought to me.
If we’re going to have Sacred Cows (forgo the pun), or protect certain peeps because they have self ascribed lady bits then let’s just put it out there.
But I’ve gone at it with a few people here, real ugly and asshole style, and never had someone tell me to stop it or I was gone.
Cole and I had words a few months back on the Jack Kemp thread. I said some shit, he didn’t like it, I said a lot more shit and he said I was welcome to go any time I felt like it. On a subsequent thread he called me on it, I told him to ban me and he called me an idiot and that was that.
Maybe he meant to and just forgot. I don’t come here to make friends or sell my art. I toss it out there. Lots of people don’t like it (thanks cbear!), but can’t believe a comment where I didn’t use any profanity or racist or any epithet is going to get me banned.
I know during the primaries I backed HRC, wasn’t shy about it and a lot of people didn’t like that. A lot of considerably uglier things happened then and there.
JGabriel
steve s:
I don’t know, Steve. I just can’t imagine a perfect world that doesn’t include Bill O’Reilly in jail.
.
Corner Stone
@JK: JK – I enjoyed you more when you were talking much smack earlier.
If you want me on screen I’ll be happy to set up a PPV just for you.
Steve S – This. Also.
DougJ
With all due respect, DougJ, I think you are way off base—-and I would like to know whether JC agrees with you.
You can ask him. I don’t like policing comments, btw.
I get what you’re saying, but I think if you go back and read the CS comment I linked to and think a bit, you’ll see where I’m coming from.
JGabriel
Corner Stone:
It’s called ‘misogyny’, CS. Let’s make this as simple as possible for you.
If you verbally attack a woman, and the attack wouldn’t work as an attack on a man, then it’s misogynistic. Got that?
For instane, calling a woman a “liberal asshole Obamabot freak” is not necessarily misogynistic because it would be an equally effective attack on a man.
But comparing a woman to “Kathy Bates in Misery” is a misogynistic attack because it wouldn’t work against a man, it would just leave people scratching their heads.
Does that simple it up for you?
.
DougJ
But if DougJ is going to step in and tell me to cool it when I make a cultural pop reference against someone who’s been slinging it against me with absolutely zero call – zero call, and there’s zero links to show why this ever even came up, then why aren’t you being called on the schoolmasters carpet for something a fuckton lot of people would consider very, very personal?
CS — it’s just that one comment I linked to. You can call GWS an asshole 500 different ways and it’s fine.
I’m not going to explain it anymore that that.
amorphous
Does anyone know where I can find a stupid Internet “shouting” match around here?
General Winfield Stuck
Hey now, no need to advertise these things. Let them occur natural and they shall flow like sands thru the hourglass.
JK
@Corner Stone:
I don’t see any difference in tone between my last 2 comments #163 and #174. What smack was I talking earlier that met with your approval?
cbear
@DougJ: Sorry DJ, I read the whole thread and I just don’t agree. This community, with very few exceptions, has always been no-holds-barred (for lack of a better description) and I think you are very close to a place that many of us would find disturbing.
I am not trying to be overly argumentative, but I would say the same to you—go back and read what you have said and “you’ll see where I’m coming from”.
Also, check out the “period” threads from last year.
Thanks.
JK
@General Winfield Stuck:
“they shall flow like sands thru the hourglass” Nice literary touch.
DougJ
This community, with very few exceptions, has always been no-holds-barred (for lack of a better description) and I think you are very close to a place that many of us would find disturbing.
I wasn’t talking about banning, just a time out.
Also, read what JGabriel just said.
Corner Stone
@JK: Either earlier today or recently where you were refuting Parole Officer (?) stating you wished Obama/Dems would just stand up.
General Winfield Stuck
@cbear:
I understand what your saying about last year during the primaries. It was hostile sewer wrestling. I would just say that it is my perception, being here about every day, that the blog has changed or evolved. I think for the better, but others may disagree. I know my personal speech is not near as nasty as then, with some obvious exceptions, and I even stopped cussing till the teabaggers and concern trolls started up.
There are people here now that are not quite as political and we talk a lot about pets, neti pots, Cole’s grooming habits and lot of other mundane shit. I think it is better and try to tone down my assholery accordlingly with mixed results. But the comment tonight was over any line, then or now, IMHO.
cbear
@DougJ: Fair enough, let’s all meet up for a beer summit at JC’s place.
General Winfield Stuck
@JK:
I think I got it from the Soap Opera. Days of Our Lives. That’s sorta literary.
DougJ
DougJ – Maybe I should have left this to you?
No, you explained it well. Thanks.
Corner Stone
@JGabriel: So if I had made a Dolly Parton in 9-5 reference? Or a Daniel Stern reference from Celtic Pride, or Very Bad Things?
Or any of a 100 pop culture references, male or female, where someone acts beyond the pale?
I 100% disagree with you trying to label me here. Not cool.
I’m an asshole, sure. But I spent a hell of a lot of time busting balls (if you’ll forgive me) when HRC was running in the primaries. I’ve also done a little work against the real spoof troll BoB here when he describes the fairer sex (oh no!)
PC, anyone?
cbear
@General Winfield Stuck: Man, I hate being in the position of defending someone I think is a terrible asshole, but I’m just not willing to see nsomething that I believe is wrong and not say something. You and I seem to agree on many things General, but definitely not in this case.
I think a lot of this has to do with the respect that many people (including myself) have for Laura W. and less to do with the comment itself.
Let’s just agree to disagree.
cbear
@Corner Stone: Jesus Christ, dude—STFU!!!
Every point has been made that’s going to be made. It’s hard to defend your right to be an asshole when you become an incessant asshole.
General Winfield Stuck
@cbear:
Yes
And I’m generally a free speecher to a fault, so it bothers me to draw lines anytime. I really do get your point and am glad you articulated it.
JK
Balloon Juice Beer Summit
The best way to settle this entire affair is for John Cole to hold a beer summit with Corner Stone, General Winfield Stuck, and Doug.
OK who’s drinking what?
Corner Stone
@cbear: I happen to be a female. But thanks anyway for your support.
JK
@Corner Stone:
Oh, that. Now, I’m of the mind that it probably doesn’t make any damn difference if Obama gets tougher or not. As a country, we’re fucking screwed.
@General Winfield Stuck:
It sounds a slight cut above soap opera.
JGabriel
@Corner Stone:
Which is why I didn’t label you, CS.
I labelled your behavior — there’s quite a difference, as I’m sure you know. Note that I didn’t call you a misogynist. Instead, I explained why the ‘Kathy Bates’ allusion, a reference to a character who maims a man in order to keep him under her control – i.e., a symbolic ‘crazy castrating bitch’ – would be considered misogynistic.
You can dance semantically around it as much as you want, but all it’s doing is making you look like one of those silly fools who keep jumping up and down, limbs asymmetrically akimbo, long after the song has ended.
.
Corner Stone
@JGabriel: I guess I could in fact be a self-hating bitch.
Thank you for awakening me to my deeply held inner loathing.
JGabriel
@Corner Stone:
Oh, you’re so adorable. I live to serve.
.
S'cuse me while I whip this out (formerly cbear)
testing, testing..
Corner Stone
@DougJ: No. Looking back through it all it’s very clear. You are offended because you have a familiarity with the female Laura W, and nothing else.
Laura is a known female entity with a clear persona due to her easily accessed web business and advertising at BJ. You feel like you know her, and take perceived attacks against her much more personally than you otherwise normally would with the commenters here. If I had a clearly female nom de guerre, like Donna Stone, you wouldn’t have uttered a peep. It’s only because you perceive me as a male that you have an issue.
JK
@Corner Stone:
Love the wording you used in this post, ie “have a familiarity”, “known female entity”. You sound just like the robot Nomad from The Changeling episode of Star Trek. Well played Corner Stone, well played.
BethanyAnne
Your comment was pointlessly cruel in a very personal way Corner Stone. And no, calling you a coward is nowhere in the same league.
Makewu
Comparing one woman to another woman is not an example of misogyny. It’s a gender specific comparison. Misogyny is the assumption that a negative trait is that way because the one it is applied to is a woman. It would be like saying that the Kathy Bates character is crazy solely because she is a woman.
Perhaps the reason your elected officials don’t listen to you is because you have problems with such simple concepts.
Leelee for Obama
@kay: Jeez, People! I had to shut down the puter due to big ass t-storms here and missed this entire thing.
You Kids have to behave when Mom’s out! This is why we can’t have nice things!
Leelee for Obama
kay-not sure if anyone will come back here today, but the@kay was from last night and not for the comment I posted this AM.
SFAW
Corner Stone –
Man, woman, andro, chimp, whatever you are – your willful inability to comprehend DougJ’s explanation is truly spectacular. Yes, the reasoning is a little subtle, but it’s not as if you need to be the foremost Proust scholar in the US to understand it.
And Laura’s comment at 59, which you believe completely justifies your subsequent nastiness? It was about as mild as anything I’ve seen here tonight, and certainly about two or three orders of magnitude less inflammatory than most, if not all, of your crap.
You and GWS want to get into it? Knock yerself out. You and Laura want to go mano-a-mano? Have at it. Drag Laura into the middle of your GWS flame-a-thon, with a particularly nasty and misogynistic flame? Time to take a breath.
No doubt, you will find some other bullshit reason to tell us all why we’re wrong, and how it was OK for you to shoot Laura (metaphorically) when she called you a jerk.
rs
@JGabriel: “Kathy Bates in Misery” is not an inaccurate description of one or two of the manly-men on this thread.
SFAW
rs –
You’re confusing this place with RedState, I think. Except it’s more than one or two over there.
kay
@Leelee for Obama:
Hi leelee. I understood what you you meant. It took me 10 years to figure out the Democrats probably should have threatened to take Republican’s (apparently) many, many extra-marital affairs public after the Republicans seized on those of Democrats as a political tactic, so I’m not exactly “rapid response”.
It occurs to me all these years later that Clinton should have done that. They make family matters a public issue, well, he does too. They open the door, they suffer the consequences.
He would have saved the country 20 years of endless sanctimonius posturing by Republicans like Gingrich and Sanford, because threatening that would have shut them down, and shut them up.
Plus. imagine the ridiculous scene that would have ensued. The accusations and counter-accusations and civil suits would have been flying. Ken Starr wouldn’t know who to go after next.
They’re not accountable for their actions because no one calls them on them.
Leelee for Obama
@kay: This is exactly the problem. Dems behave like decent folks in the face of the most outrageous behavior. I think it’s because they honestly understand the meaning of guilt and penance-instead of using those things as props.
I want Rahm Emanuel to have a “teaching moment” that will curl hair. It’s time that the Rethugs know we ain’t candy-asses, and this ain’t bean-ball.
gil mann
It’s time that the Rethugs know we ain’t candy-asses
If by “we” you mean the party as a whole, I’ve got some rather dispiriting news.
Leelee for Obama
@gil mann: Yeah, gil, I know it’s tough. But I try to console myself with Obama’s statement during the campaign the he doesn’t do the cowering. He doesn’t, and that kind of guts can be contagious. Democrats need an infusion of “that’s BS, and you know!” As political animals, they need to know their voters expect it. Write to them,call them, e-mail them, sign petitions, got to THs. They’re nervous but they’re not deaf, dumb and blind.
kay
@Leelee for Obama:
I think Democrats were reluctant to call them on it because it ALL would have come out, and there’s plenty of it on both sides.
We got there anyway. Republicans are completely discredited on the whole issue. It just took too long, and we had to listen to nearly twenty years of nonsense. I’d rather have a big implosion then listen to them lie for twenty years.
There’s a long list of cheaters, and those are the ones we know. It might have been helpful for Americans to put this in perspective, once Republicans opened the door on an issue they are so completely vulnerable on, they should have been called out. We’d have been able to skip a lot of the ensuing stupidity, because they’ve done essentially the same thing on issue after issue, like, for example, “death panels”, which nearly all of them supported, and then blatantly lied about.
rs
@SFAW: Never been to RedState, but I would guess the reflex Bush/Republican apologists I’d find frequenting it are just the mirror image of the Obama sycophants I find on sites like this.
Meanwhile, healthcare reform flounders due to the corrupt influence of the hospital/insurance/pharmaceutical lobbies on Republicans and Democrats alike, the transfer of wealth to Wall Street that was started by Bush and Paulson was successfully completed by Obama and Geithner, the civilian death toll in Pakistan increases daily due to (cowardly) drone attacks, and US money continues to support the coup-that-wasn’t-a-coup leaders in Honduras.
In answer to a bumper sticker I saw several days ago, that hope and change thing is working fucking great for me.
Leelee for Obama
@kay: There is nothing I would add to this. You are absolutely right. My thoughts on better behavior may be naive, but I think it has a role in the Democrats reluctance to “go there” The judge not thing and all. But, fear of their own peccadillos spread all over is the likely thing. This could be why the Chinese only had eunuchs close to the Emperor. At least that type of thing couldn’t happen.
SFAW
Never been to RedState, but I would guess the reflex Bush/Republican apologists I’d find frequenting it are just the mirror image of the Obama sycophants I find on sites like this.
I think the sycophants are relatively few, and left-side sites are not nearly so monolithic, nor as bellicose (so to speak), in their Obama support as the right-side sites are in their hatred of all-things-not-right-wing.
That, plus the insanity-level-per-capita on the left side is almost in the “background noise” region, whereas on the right side it pegs the meter.
John S.
Wow, I haven’t seen a threadjack of this magnitude over such meaningless drivel since the days of Darrell.
rs
@SFAW: I agree with you about the far higher incidence of mouth-frothing crazies on the right, but willful ignorance and blind faith are problems no matter how they’re packaged.
General Winfield Stuck
@rs:
You being the expert on these things. Got any more insults to start the morn out?
CalD
The Republicans have better PR people working for them than Democrats do. Astroturfing is only one of the ways they can push buttons and make things happen. They excel at working reporters, placing op-eds, and putting well prepared spokesweasels in front of TV cameras. They’ve also put a lot of time, money and hard work into building their brand and can live a long time on accumulated brand equity, even while ostensibly out of power.
Democrats tend to disregard or even pooh-pooh the necessity of marketing their ideas and more importantly (because good policy ideas are often complicated and don’t fit on bumper stickers) their brand. In the retail world, consumers often rely on brands as a substitute for research when picking out anything from a new toaster to a new car. Product marketers know this and devote a lot of time building and jealously protecting their brands. Republicans have learned that branding is equally important in politics, particularly at the national level. Democrats have not.
I will say that President Obama and his team understand marketing better than anyone I’ve seen come along in a good long time. They have certainly done an amazing job of selling brand Obama. I’m just not sure to what extent they understand that selling Obama’s agenda will depend to a large extent on polishing up the Democratic brand. I see signs that they may, but I wish they could/would have found someone of David Axelrod’s caliber to head up the DNC.
In terms of existing infrastructure though, they’re starting at a considerable disadvantage to Republicans. And as for trying to remedy that, they’ll have to deal with attitudes ranging from yawning disinterest to outright hostility toward the very idea. Republicans, I’ve heard, pound it into the heads of their incoming congressional freshmen while they’re still in a suggestible state and hungry for mentoring — kinda like the Jesuits.
rs
@General Winfield Stuck: No, I’m done Annie.
SFAW
You being the expert on these things. Got any more insults to start the morn out?
What, you’re going to start up with rs while Corner Stone is still asleep? Can’t you do something more productive, like check your tomato plants for boll weevils?
Give it a rest already.
General Winfield Stuck
@rs:
Classy comeback/
SFAW
rs –
By the way, nice how you non-sequitured from the “manly-man” snark (and the reply) to the Obama sycophant line of “discussion”.
No, no, don’t thank me.
General Winfield Stuck
@SFAW:
And you need to mind your own business. I comment without your permission.
SFAW
And you need to mind your own business. I comment without your permission.
Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Try that shit on someone else, it might work.
Are you going to go after everyone in this thread? Should be fun.
rs
@General Winfield Stuck: This has been fun, but I’m going out on the lake and baiting some real fish. You might try getting out from in front of the keyboard yourself- this thread seems to be consuming a lot of your life.
General Winfield Stuck
@SFAW:
Are you going to go after everyone in this thread?
Of course that is what happened here. Again, don’t need your permission to comment. You want to pet the concern trolls, that’s your business. I’m not going after you, I didn’t even mention you until stepped in and told me what I should do.
General Winfield Stuck
@rs:
YOu’re concerned, I understand.
SFAW
Are you going to go after everyone in this thread?
Good point.
I guess I’ll stick to the ones who are worth it.
Thanks for showing me the light.
General Winfield Stuck
This was a block quote error on my part. Wasn’t meant to be directed to you. Sorry you took it that way.
SFAW
OK, sorry for not figuring it out (or at least asking).
Koz
The answer for Atrios is not that complicated. The Obama Administration is pursuing very aggressive legislative goals and cannot explain in complete sentences what they are supposed to achieve and how they are supposed to work.